Episode 4 - The Fourth Episode

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<v Charlie Incarica>In this episode, I examine the life and death of Amanda Putnam Hart.

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<v Charlie Incarica>We'll dive deep into her past, as that's all she has at this point.

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<v Charlie Incarica>We'll talk with people who admired and loved her, as well as those who were openly hostile towards the woman many credit with saving the Shady Grove Pudding Empire.

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<v Charlie Incarica>I also interviewed people who had no feelings about her either way, but I edited those out.

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<v Charlie Incarica>When we left off, the town had just learned of the brutal murder of Chief Tommy Ebner.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Here's Estelle Hayes.

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<v Estelle Hayes>You have to understand, Tommy Ebner's murder kicked the town's sense of panic into overdrive.

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<v Estelle Hayes>I mean, I'm not saying a brutal triple homicide is anything to sneeze at, but when it's followed less than three weeks later by the chief of police getting stabbed, I mean even the signboard outside the church where the pastor usually puts up Bible quotes read, shit's getting real.

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<v Charlie Incarica>I asked Deputy Sheriff Taylor Brannigan about the police department's reaction.

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<v Taylor Branigan>There wasn't a person on the force who wasn't shaken and well, afraid.

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<v Taylor Branigan>There was also, of course, a lot of anger.

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<v Taylor Branigan>Not helped by the fact that the restaurant was now a crime scene and had to be shut down for days.

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<v Charlie Incarica>No shady hot hot wings for a week.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Just when the town would have needed its patented recipe and free blue cheese more than ever.

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<v Charlie Incarica>A cruel blow.

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<v Taylor Branigan>We set to work looking for any eyewitnesses.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Something that shouldn't have been an issue, as it was inside a restaurant.

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<v Taylor Branigan>But this was at the start of lockdown, so no one was allowed to eat in the dining area, but Tommy was the chief of police, and well, nothing got in the way of Tommy eating his wings.

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<v Taylor Branigan>But there was the restaurant staff, which didn't help much either.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Coincidentally, Elisa Mackenzie, the woman who found Amanda Putnam Hart's corpse, along with about two others, was working behind the counter that night.

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<v Elisa McKenzie>Yeah, I went out to tell him that cop or no cop, there was a strict 30-minute seating policy.

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<v Elisa McKenzie>But then I was like, not again.

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<v Charlie Incarica>You could tell he was dead?

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<v Elisa McKenzie>Yeah.

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<v Elisa McKenzie>I was starting to get good at it.

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<v Elisa McKenzie>And I mean, we're used to a certain amount of bodily fluids on the floor here, but not that much blood.

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<v Elisa McKenzie>His throat was cut.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Oh.

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<v Elisa McKenzie>I know, right?

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<v Charlie Incarica>And no one on the staff saw anyone else there?

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<v Elisa McKenzie>The thing is, we all take turns making this shit.

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<v Elisa McKenzie>The last thing we want is to watch people eat it.

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<v Taylor Branigan>No one claimed to have seen anyone, which is hard to believe.

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<v Taylor Branigan>And their security camera turned out to have been disconnected.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Oh wow.

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<v Charlie Incarica>So the murderer had to have access to disable it.

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<v Taylor Branigan>That's what I thought, but when I spoke to the manager, he said he'd turn it off a few years ago because the sight of people eating those wings on the video monitor was really bad for morale.

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<v Charlie Incarica>And don't you think it's a bit of a coincidence that Elisa McKenzie was the one to discover both bodies?

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<v Taylor Branigan>Oh, of course.

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<v Taylor Branigan>That was the first thing that jumped out, but it was hard to think of any motive she could possibly have.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Right.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Although, of course, she did regularly speak with William Hart.

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<v Taylor Branigan>What?

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<v Charlie Incarica>I told Taylor what Elisa mentioned to me at the start of episode one about Elisa's regular conversations with William Hart, Amanda Putnam Hart's ex-husband, which she too found noteworthy.

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<v Charlie Incarica>And although I didn't expect to be viewed as a hero for my heroic work, I was a bit surprised by her response.

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<v Taylor Branigan>Why the fuck didn't you say that before?

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<v Taylor Branigan>What the fuck, man?

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<v Charlie Incarica>Of course, this response was probably more about her embarrassment at not having consulted me than my having held back potentially crucial information in a murder investigation.

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<v Charlie Incarica>But for now, let's focus on Amanda Putnam Hart.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Amanda Vanilla Chocolate Swirl Putnam was born on December 9, 1972, 25 minutes before her twin brother Teddy.

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<v Charlie Incarica>She was by all accounts a bright, precocious girl.

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<v Charlie Incarica>She had a distinct memory of waking up on her fifth birthday to see two Shetland ponies for her and her brother in their backyard, only to discover they belonged to her father, who was at the time trying to make Shetland pony racing a thing.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Though she grew up amidst vast wealth, it was by all accounts an unhappy home, with Robert, a frequently absent and emotionally unstable father, and a mother who resented Amanda and Teddy for taking her away from her true love, grifting the elderly.

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<v Charlie Incarica>By 1980, Amanda's mother, whom she had only known as Tammy the Blade, had fled to run a short con selling home chairlifts to seniors in Arizona.

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<v Estelle Hayes>I remember Amanda from when she was a little girl.

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<v Estelle Hayes>She'd come into our little town library van, look around at some of the books she liked, and then make her governess take down the names of all her favorites so her father could buy them.

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<v Estelle Hayes>I tried to explain that a library was where you borrowed books and then brought them back for other children to read, but she told me that sharing was a sign of weakness.

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<v Estelle Hayes>You don't forget a phrase like that come from the mouth of a six-year-old.

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<v Charlie Incarica>When her second grade teacher reprimanded her for stealing a classmate's lunch, Amanda told the teacher she had, quote, more than enough money in my piggy bank to put a contract out on you.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Only when her father was called down to school with the piggy bank, proving the veracity of her claim, did the school therapist sign off on her return to class.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Amanda started boarding school in 1985, where her rebellious streak remained as strong as ever.

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<v Charlie Incarica>In 1987, a 14-year-old Amanda broke curfew at her boarding school, missing the 1030 Lights Out deadline by five months, spending the winter in Stadt, and later in Rio de Janeiro, where she landed a gig as MTV's chief correspondent at Carnival.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Welcome back to Springbreak Rio de Janeiro and the Timber Zumicum favorite shirt, but with the latest memory and accident.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>She was, from the start, a a gifted but troubled soul.

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<v Charlie Incarica>That's Vanessa Holmes, a best-selling author whose works include biographies of Grover Cleveland, Pope Gregory IX, Grover Cleveland again, and three of the Spice Girls.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Her latest work has been hailed as the definitive biography of the Putnam family, Just Desserts, which won the 2021 National Book Award for most insufferable title.

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<v Charlie Incarica>I'd meant to reach out to her before I started the podcast, but as I mentioned in the last episode, Amy dumping me, especially the way she did, at my nephew's bar mitzvah, really did a number on me, and I just flaked.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Anyway, here she is now.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>It would be easy to say that Amanda had a habit of always falling in with the wrong crowd, but it's more accurate to say Amanda was the wrong crowd that other people later regretted falling in with.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Here's my question: how was she able to do this at sixteen?

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<v Charlie Incarica>Didn't her family worry when she disappeared from school?

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<v Vanessa Holmes>Robert barely knew where he was half the time.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>The school tried to reach out to him, but Robert was largely unreachable in those days.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>He was moving around, scouting ideal locations to establish a compound for a cult he was trying to get off the ground.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>As for Amanda's mother, well, Interpol couldn't drag her down, so I doubt her boarding school was going to have much luck.

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<v Estelle Hayes>Meanwhile, there's not a goddamn thing Vanessa fucking Holmes can tell you about the Putnams that I can't.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Estelle was angry I'd enlisted Vanessa's help, but it's always good to seek out multiple perspectives, which I tried to explain to her.

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<v Charlie Incarica>But the more I tried to reassure Estelle she was an invaluable resource, the more irritated she became.

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<v Charlie Incarica>She kicked me out, and I was forced to spend several days in a hotel.

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<v Charlie Incarica>I think this is it.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Thank you.

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<v Estelle Hayes>Oh, can I The thing is, as troubled as Amanda was in her teens, she also clearly had the brains and sociopathic personality to run a successful company.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Do you think it was a simple case of sexism that explains why she got passed over?

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<v Charlie Incarica>And um, how did you get into my hotel room?

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<v Estelle Hayes>You honestly think this is the first hotel room I've broken into?

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<v Estelle Hayes>But no, I don't think it was misogyny.

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<v Estelle Hayes>Though I bet your precious Vanessa Holmes would say otherwise.

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<v Estelle Hayes>By 1997, Amanda Putnam was a full-time party girl.

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<v Estelle Hayes>By then, she'd been widowed over a year.

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<v Estelle Hayes>She'd married an elderly millionaire in late 1995.

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<v Charlie Incarica>She married a rich older man and just waited for him to die?

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<v Estelle Hayes>Oh, yeah.

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<v Estelle Hayes>And she made sure she didn't have to wait long.

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<v Estelle Hayes>The wedding was held in a hospice.

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<v Estelle Hayes>She had no interest in Shady Grove or its pudding company at that point.

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<v Estelle Hayes>She was independently wealthy now.

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<v Estelle Hayes>She didn't need her family, which is what she'd always wanted.

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<v Estelle Hayes>Jesus, this many bars are pretty slim pickings.

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<v Estelle Hayes>It was ironic.

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<v Estelle Hayes>She was a celebrity in Germany.

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<v Estelle Hayes>She was in what seemed to be a stable and loving relationship with the German men's national soccer team.

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<v Estelle Hayes>But by all accounts, she felt lonelier than ever.

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<v Charlie Incarica>So, if Amanda Putnam was wealthy, why did she come back to Shady Grove in 2008?

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<v Charlie Incarica>Well This is Vanessa again.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>Whom are you talking to?

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<v Charlie Incarica>Oh, sorry, I'm just clarifying for the listeners that I'm talking to you again and not Estelle.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>Estelle Hayes?

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<v Vanessa Holmes>You're interviewing Estelle Hayes for this?

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<v Charlie Incarica>Well, yes, she's been very helpful.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>She once tried to assault me, you know, at a book signing of mine.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Oh god, um I'm so sorry.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>And afterwards still demanded I sign her book.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>But I made damn sure my inscription was generic and perfunctory.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Well, um anyway, you were saying about um we'll get to 2008, but not yet.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>In the early 2000s, Amanda was living in Berlin, where her art installations had earned her some celebrity.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Amanda was an artist?

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<v Vanessa Holmes>She was a performance artist, so no.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>Her work was consistently praised as gritty.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>Her most famous installation involved inviting an audience member to the stage to read aloud from a series of erotic sonnets Amanda had written about racially insensitive sports mascots.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>While they were being read, Amanda sat in a corner and brutally smashed musical instruments, kitchen appliances, and hummel figurines with what she called the hammer of righteous smashing, or der Hammer des Gresten Zirschwettens.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>In another critically acclaimed piece, she smeared herself in pudding and made each audience member construct a shoebox diorama illustrating why the things they loved most were shallow and pointless.

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<v Charlie Incarica>But while her performance art career was flourishing, other facets of her life were starting to fall apart.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Her addiction to cocaine, as well as various prescription drugs, was becoming harder to ignore.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Her friends considered an intervention, but then realized that it would make it hard to share her drugs if she didn't have any.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>And her latest art installation titled Bring Mir Drugen, or Bring Me Drugs, in which the audience had to bring her ketamine and then watch her take it, was an artistic and legal setback.

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<v Charlie Incarica>She was in the throes of a terrible personal crisis and drug addiction, which left her broke.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>The good news is that forced her to come home and get clean.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>Although schools in Bogota are still closed every December 9th for Amanda's birthday, as thanks for her contributions to Columbia's economy.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Amanda returned to find Shady Grove Pudding on the brink of financial ruin.

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<v Estelle Hayes>Apparently, she just showed up at the office one day, took one look at Teddy's promotional plan of giving away two packs of pudding per customer if they promised to buy a third pack at some point during the following fiscal year, and asked him if he could bring her a legal pad.

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<v Estelle Hayes>When he returned, all of his personal effects had been tossed out, and Amanda had changed the lock.

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<v Charlie Incarica>The office, and indeed the company, was now hers.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Here's Aaron Patterson, an in-house lawyer for SGP Holdings from 1999 to 2014, describing the vast cultural shift within the company.

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<v Co-worker>Oh, you felt her effect immediately.

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<v Co-worker>First of all, the dozens of foosball tables were gone, as were the mandatory Foosball League games.

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<v Co-worker>The meetings were very different, too.

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<v Charlie Incarica>How so?

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<v Co-worker>Mostly in that they happened.

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<v Charlie Incarica>How was Amanda as a boss?

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<v Co-worker>Tough, but fair, although mostly just tough.

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<v Co-worker>And the ethos of there are no stupid questions was very much chucked out.

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<v Co-worker>Amanda wasn't shy about pointing out in granular detail exactly how and why a given question was stupid.

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<v Co-worker>Sometimes she'd use charts.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Sounds like she couldn't have been too popular.

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<v Co-worker>Well, her job wasn't to be popular, and based on that, I've seldom seen anyone be more successful at their job.

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<v Co-worker>Also, the company did turn around.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Amanda's stewardship led to an almost instant turnaround in sales.

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<v Charlie Incarica>She quickly replaced the company's old tagline, We both know you're not going to the gym today.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Why not have pudding too?

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<v Charlie Incarica>With Shady Grove Pudding, putting the pudding in putting some fun in your life.

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<v Co-worker>She had a lot of pun-based marketing, which apparently tested well.

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<v Co-worker>Personally, pun sap me of my will to live.

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<v Co-worker>But you can't argue with the results.

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<v Charlie Incarica>By 2011, Shady Grove had recaptured the market share that had been squandered under Teddy's leadership.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Then, in 2014, Amanda Putnam showed she had the same killer instinct, at least metaphorically, as her grandfather.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Allegations of Bill Cosby's decades-long history of drugging and assaulting women had become big news, and Amanda pounced on the chance to kick her top competitor when it was down by pouncing and kicking with an unprecedented 90-second ad that ran during the Super Bowl.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Hi, I'm Amanda Putnam, co-CEO of Shady Grove Pudding and Semiconductors.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Normally, there's nothing I love more than chatting with people about pudding, and to a lesser extent, semiconducting.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>But not today.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>We've all heard about the heinous accusations against Bill Cosby.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>And while in America we believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, we also believe he absolutely did it.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>These unspeakable acts disgust me as a woman, a human being, and most of all, as a proud pudding monger.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>The cruelty he displayed and his utter lack of remorse were obviously fueled by pure evil and most likely large helpings of one of our competitors' pudding.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Now, are we suggesting his corporate sponsors should be viewed as equally guilty of these moral obscenities?

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Yes.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Let me assure you, you'll never feel morally sickened at the thought of buying our pudding.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>That's the Shady Grove pudding promise.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>I don't see other pudding companies in America, which I happen to think is the greatest country in the world, making the same pledge.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Makes you wonder what the other companies have to hide, doesn't it?

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Could those dark secrets they're definitely keeping from you be as nauseating as the crimes of Bill Cosby?

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Why take that chance?

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Shady Grove Pudding.

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<v Amanda Putnam Hart>Buying it is the best way to show the world you disapprove of Bill Cosby.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>The infamous Cosby ad was universally pilloried as crass, cynical, and deeply insensitive.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Yet the next month, Shady Grove's market share increased by an astonishing 34%.

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<v Charlie Incarica>For context, that's a full eight points higher than 26%.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>This is when Amanda started receiving hostile emails and even some death threats.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Who was sending them?

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<v Charlie Incarica>Who wasn't?

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<v Charlie Incarica>One email Amanda received in the spring of 2019 did catch her attention.

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<v Charlie Incarica>It was from Erica Hobbes.

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<v Charlie Incarica>If you'll remember, back in the first episode, that guy named Guy mentioned her, and I said she'd come up again.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Well, she did.

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<v Charlie Incarica>Just now.

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<v Vanessa Holmes>Erica Hobbs.

00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:42.480
<v Vanessa Holmes>Oh boy.

00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:47.440
<v Vanessa Holmes>Erica Hobbs' emails weren't threatening in any way, at least on the surface.

00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:53.120
<v Vanessa Holmes>She emailed Amanda that she was in Shady Grove and that she was there for a reason.

00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:59.200
<v Vanessa Holmes>Erica Hobbs was the granddaughter of Walter Putnam.

00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:06.880
<v Charlie Incarica>To refresh your memory, Walter Putnam was the one who apparently enjoyed murdering sex workers.

00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:15.599
<v Charlie Incarica>He was the elder son of the original pudding patriarch, Edward Putnam Sr., and Walter's death was likely engineered by his younger brother Eddie.

00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:18.720
<v Estelle Hayes>Erica certainly made an impression in town.

00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:24.319
<v Estelle Hayes>She was quite vocal about her family's origin, so naturally she drew attention.

00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.240
<v Charlie Incarica>Word of Erica's effect on the locals reached Amanda quickly.

00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:35.039
<v Charlie Incarica>She understood Erica posed a potential threat to the stability she'd finally brought to the company and the town.

00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:39.359
<v Estelle Hayes>Erica's presence brought up some long-buried wounds.

00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:43.119
<v Estelle Hayes>It was a reminder of the power and corruption of the Putnam family.

00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:48.079
<v Estelle Hayes>And even though those crimes happened generations ago, the Putnams were still in control.

00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.759
<v Estelle Hayes>So people started to speculate if they were still corrupt.

00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:54.400
<v Estelle Hayes>Or rather, just how corrupt.

00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.839
<v Charlie Incarica>So, Amanda was forced to take action.

00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:02.400
<v Estelle Hayes>But in order to do that, she had to meet her and get a sense of who she was dealing with.

00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.759
<v Charlie Incarica>This was Erica Hobbes' first trip to Shady Grove.

00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:10.559
<v Charlie Incarica>However, it wasn't the first trip to Shady Grove for Erica Hobbes.

00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.599
<v Charlie Incarica>Or rather, Anne Erica Hobbes.

00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:17.759
<v Charlie Incarica>Because somehow, it turned out there were two Erica Hobbes.

00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.240
<v Charlie Incarica>Nor was Erica Hobbes.

00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:25.039
<v Charlie Incarica>I mean the Erica Hobbes who visited after the first Erica Hobbes visited first.

00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:34.400
<v Charlie Incarica>In other words, I'm referring to the Erica Hobbes we're discussing now, although I realize as I'm saying this, we're now talking about both Erica Hobbes's at this point.

00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:47.039
<v Charlie Incarica>But okay, it's this second iteration of Erica Hobbes, although she was the first Erica Hobbes to be mentioned here, also wasn't the first Erica Hobbes to have reached out to the Putnams as Erica Hobbes.

00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.240
<v Charlie Incarica>That distinction belongs to Erica Hobbes.

00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.759
<v Estelle Hayes>Erica Hobbes was named after her mother.

00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:54.960
<v Charlie Incarica>Exactly.

00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:59.599
<v Charlie Incarica>Erica Hobbes, the elder, was Walter's younger daughter Catherine.

00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:07.759
<v Charlie Incarica>She was renamed Erica by her mother to throw anyone searching for them off the scent, vastly overestimating how consequential they were.

00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:15.599
<v Charlie Incarica>And in February of 1983, she arrived at Shady Grove Pudding's executive offices to find her cousin, Robert Putnam.

00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:21.920
<v Vanessa Holmes>Unfortunately for Erica, going to his office was perhaps the least effective way to see Robert.

00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:24.079
<v Vanessa Holmes>Her uncle Eddie Jr.

00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:25.759
<v Vanessa Holmes>was also nowhere to be found.

00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:30.079
<v Vanessa Holmes>He spent that spring lecturing on economics at Princeton University.

00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:36.000
<v Vanessa Holmes>Or he was until that April when the administration realized no one had invited him to.

00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:43.519
<v Charlie Incarica>After two weeks of patiently waiting, Erica got a chance to meet with Robert when he arrived to oversee the installation of a Ms.

00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:45.599
<v Charlie Incarica>Pac Man console in his office.

00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.640
<v Vanessa Holmes>Robert barely knew about Walter's existence.

00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:53.359
<v Vanessa Holmes>He was rarely spoken of, and when he was, Robert usually wasn't paying attention.

00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:55.440
<v Vanessa Holmes>So in between rounds of Ms.

00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:00.559
<v Vanessa Holmes>Pac-Man, Erica filled him in on the history of the family he'd never known.

00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:08.319
<v Vanessa Holmes>Erica's mother had taken the girls and settled temporarily in Portland, Oregon, where they took their mother's maiden name, Hobbes.

00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.880
<v Vanessa Holmes>Before they left, Edward Sr.

00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.920
<v Vanessa Holmes>promised them they would never want for anything.

00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:23.759
<v Vanessa Holmes>But his first package to them, three cubic tons of tapioca pudding, confirmed her suspicions that her father-in-law was too deranged to be of any help.

00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:29.759
<v Charlie Incarica>Erica's mother sold the pudding on the black market and used the proceeds to move abroad.

00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:38.960
<v Vanessa Holmes>On her deathbed, she told her daughters about their connection to the Putnam family fortune and urged them to fight for what was rightfully theirs.

00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:47.680
<v Charlie Incarica>Her older sister had decided to not pursue anything involving the Putnams, opting for a quiet life as a geography teacher.

00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.039
<v Charlie Incarica>Erica, on the other hand, wanted answers.

00:20:51.039 --> 00:21:04.480
<v Charlie Incarica>But, according to Vanessa, any cordiality between the cousins that day soon evaporated, after Erica demanded to see their grandfather, and had also secured the top five high scores in Miss Pac-Man.

00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.680
<v Vanessa Holmes>Things deteriorated very quickly after that.

00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.640
<v Vanessa Holmes>Robert refused to let her see their grandfather.

00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.920
<v Vanessa Holmes>So Erica went to Princeton to confront her uncle.

00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.119
<v Charlie Incarica>Not even Vanessa knows what happened next.

00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:22.720
<v Charlie Incarica>Erica and Eddie were seen leaving campus together, but she was never seen again.

00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:28.640
<v Estelle Hayes>So back to 2019, Amanda invited Erica's daughter Erica out to her estate.

00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:30.799
<v Estelle Hayes>It's a ridiculously posh mansion.

00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.640
<v Estelle Hayes>I've never been there, but by all accounts, it's really over the top.

00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:41.839
<v Estelle Hayes>The guest house is the second largest home in Shady Grove, after her actual house, and the guest house has its own guest house.

00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.000
<v Estelle Hayes>It kinda made Erica happy.

00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.799
<v Estelle Hayes>And Amanda was too shrewd not to realize it.

00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:48.240
<v Estelle Hayes>It was a power play.

00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.720
<v Charlie Incarica>What do you think Erica wanted from Amanda?

00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.039
<v Estelle Hayes>I can't imagine money wasn't a part of it.

00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:55.759
<v Estelle Hayes>But it seemed it was more personal than just pudding.

00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.440
<v Estelle Hayes>It was about trying to find some closure for her mother and herself.

00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.319
<v Charlie Incarica>It's hard to imagine what closure would even look like.

00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:06.640
<v Estelle Hayes>The thing is, Amanda wasn't responsible for what happened to Erica's mother.

00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:08.720
<v Charlie Incarica>Who was also named Erica.

00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:10.400
<v Estelle Hayes>What is your deal with that?

00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:10.960
<v Charlie Incarica>What?

00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:15.920
<v Estelle Hayes>You just seem disproportionately confused by the fact a mother and daughter have the same name.

00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:16.960
<v Charlie Incarica>Yeah, I'm sorry.

00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:24.559
<v Charlie Incarica>To be honest, Amy hadn't been returning my texts, and I hadn't been sleeping well, because the pillows at the new hotel were very thin.

00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.640
<v Charlie Incarica>I tried explaining this to Estelle.

00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:32.079
<v Estelle Hayes>Well, you've got Vanessa fucking homes and her generic and perfunctory inscriptions to blame for that.

00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:36.000
<v Estelle Hayes>Anyway, Amanda didn't kill Erica's mother.

00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.920
<v Estelle Hayes>But on the other hand, I don't think she was the kind of person who's much good at empathy.

00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:40.960
<v Charlie Incarica>Erica Sr.

00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.720
<v Estelle Hayes>Amanda, for fuck's sake.

00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.680
<v Estelle Hayes>Jesus.

00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.640
<v Estelle Hayes>For all of her talents, Amanda never got the hang of faking sincerity.

00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:49.440
<v Estelle Hayes>Right.

00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.680
<v Estelle Hayes>I'm sorry I snapped just now.

00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.519
<v Estelle Hayes>Do you want to talk about Amy?

00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:53.839
<v Charlie Incarica>No.

00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:55.839
<v Charlie Incarica>Well, I've just been really struggling.

00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.319
<v Estelle Hayes>See, all she had to do was fake it like I just did, and it would have saved a lot of ugliness.

00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.039
<v Estelle Hayes>And who knows, maybe even Amanda's life.

00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:09.680
<v Charlie Incarica>Erica left Shady Grove the following morning, but returned two weeks later, bringing her lawyer with her.

00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.599
<v Charlie Incarica>She called a press conference.

00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.559
<v Erica Hobbs>I came to Shady Grove because I wanted to connect with my cousins.

00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:21.680
<v Erica Hobbs>But Amanda Putnam told me that she would never let me be a part of her life.

00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.519
<v Erica Hobbs>Or her empire made of pudding, which is made of blood.

00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:29.680
<v Erica Hobbs>Which my attorney advises me I have to make clear the part about the blood is a metaphor.

00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.880
<v Erica Hobbs>She claims I'm only interested in money.

00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.440
<v Erica Hobbs>Nothing could be further from the truth.

00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:44.160
<v Erica Hobbs>This is why today I'm announcing I'm seeking forty-three point eight million dollars in damages from the Putnam family for emotional cruelty.

00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:49.440
<v Erica Hobbs>And now, after a brief statement from my attorney, I'll be happy to answer questions.

00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:51.119
<v Co-worker>Thank you, Erica.

00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.519
<v Co-worker>We will not be answering any questions at this time.

00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:02.559
<v Estelle Hayes>After that, Amanda made her play, and it was a brilliant one.

00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:14.319
<v Vanessa Holmes>She saw Alice Hart was struggling to win her run for governor, and suddenly Amanda and William are in love.

00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:17.680
<v Vanessa Holmes>And the Hart campaign has a substantial war chest.

00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:23.599
<v Vanessa Holmes>Amanda's lawyers delayed and delayed the trial until the summer of 2019.

00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:35.279
<v Vanessa Holmes>But the first thing Alice Hart did as governor is sign a bill into law banning frivolous lawsuits, which were defined in the legislation as anything based on feelings.

00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:44.480
<v Charlie Incarica>So it would seem that Governor Alice Hart, who had been given great power, did not handle the great responsibility that came with it greatly.

00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.200
<v Charlie Incarica>And Erica Hobbes went into hiding.

00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:54.559
<v Estelle Hayes>She went full hermit, which she posted about daily on TikTok with the handle at Pudding Ditch 1938.

00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:04.640
<v Charlie Incarica>So, by March 2020, Erica Hobbes' daughter, Erica Hobbes, could be added to the list of people who had a clear motive for murder.

00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:10.799
<v Charlie Incarica>And Alisa McKenzie seems to have had unique access to each of the murder victims.

00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:19.680
<v Charlie Incarica>I know at the top of the episode, I said we'd talk to people who knew and loved Amanda, but we sort of rolled snake eyes on that every time we looked for one.

00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:25.279
<v Charlie Incarica>Anyway, in episode 5, the plot and the pudding thicken.

00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:33.359
<v Charlie Incarica>And this continues to be the Murderer Killings.