#294: Developing Your Signature Style

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Emma

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You're listening to the Beautiful Mess podcast your cozy comfort listen. I'm your host, Emma Chapman.

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Elsie

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And I'm your host, Elsie Larson.

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Emma

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And this week we're talking about how to develop your Creative Palette and style without being

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derivative. This is a subject that applies across different creative practices, from art to writing and even

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how you dress or decorate your home. And also, at the end of the episode, we're going to have a book

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report.

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Elsie

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Yes, this entire episode is based around a wonderful listener question. It is from Haley, so I'm going to

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read it to get us started. She says, I always want to be creative and love making art. I get frustrated,

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though, because I seem to be stuck in a loop of seeing something I like on Pinterest and then

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recreating it. I feel like I can't figure out how to make something original. When I see something I like on

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Pinterest, I can't get it on my head and I just remake it. How do you gather inspiration without imitation?

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So I love this subject. Yeah, I think that it's so interesting, and I do think it's like a very common

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challenge in, like, early development of any kind of creative process, like, no one wants to be derivative,

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like no one wants to be a copycat. But in this episode, we're gonna make the case why you kind of

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have to. It's a stepping stone to get where you want to go. It's not where you're going to end. It's not

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where you're going to land on. It's one step in the process of learning your style.

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Emma

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Yeah, we're going to flip a script on it. Instead of being like, I'm a copycat, it's like, I'm a fan girl.

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Elsie

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Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And I should shout out, I love Austin cleons. You know, we saw him at a

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conference last year, and it has he was so, was so cute, and I followed his newsletter ever since, and

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he has that book, I'm sure you've heard of it, steal, like an artist, and it is such a great little it's kind of a

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pep talk, like, I don't even feel like it's like a book, it's like a it's a pep It's a little, yeah, little talking pep

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talk for you. If you are more interested in the subject, I do recommend it, because it kind of just

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consolidates all the great quotes. There's a lot of, like, Picasso quotes, and just everyone through

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history kind of knows, like, not just Andy Warhol, other people too. You kind of have to copy, like, it's

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part of creating art, and it's not always a bad thing. So I think that share, I don't know, we'll talk, we'll

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talk more about it, but yeah, I think that when I was younger, I first started my blog, I wanted everything

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I did to be completely original, and it was kind of a trap, because I didn't let myself try many things I was

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interested in, because someone else was already doing it well. And I think that that's really sad.

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Emma

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I actually just really liked her question too, because I feel like sometimes people are nervous to admit

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that they want to make something they've seen, yeah, like, just even saying that, a lot of people feel

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like, oh, I should never, never admit that, even though the truth is, we all feel that way. We every time I

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see a beautiful piece of art of some kind, I would love to make it, you know, like, that's kind of what it

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means to be a fan. So, you know, it's a really normal starting place. And I just like that. She was just

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like, here's the thing, you know, it's like, yeah, exactly Yes. Me too, all of us, yes. Okay, so we're kind of

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going to go through. It's basically a three step process, yeah, simple, easy, just three steps, and then

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you will have your own signature style.

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Elsie

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And this applies to art, writing, creating content, dressing yourself, any creative work you want to do on

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this planet, this will apply to you, but we'll probably tell mostly stories from our own development. So

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maybe, like writing our novels, and I could, I can talk about art too, but yeah, there's maybe blogging

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too, but yeah, there's all kinds of, I kind of think it applies to everything, like, it touches every part of

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creativity.

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Emma

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Yes, it does. It's just like, I feel like it's like, one of those snowball things where it's like, you start going

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with it, and then you find out, as it starts rolling down the hill and getting, like, bigger and bigger and

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beyond you, you're like, oh, it just supplies everything. I was trying to just have my own painting style,

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but all of a sudden I'm like, looking at my closet differently, and my kids closet differently, and my

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decorating my house, or like, the way I cook and the way I present food if I have guests over, you know,

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whatever, whatever you do in your life. These are things I do.

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Elsie

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I'm actually going to use painting as more an example today, because this season right now, I'm in the

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process of trying to tweak my style and kind of take it in a new direction. And so I have been doing a lot

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of this stuff. So I think if you sit down and you you sit down, you have your blank canvas, you put your

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paints on your palette, you have your water, you have your brushes, and you expect for yourself on the

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first try to just be able to. Just like, conjure something original like that is it might happen. I mean, you

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like, you can put paint on the canvas and just see what comes out. Like you, you might find something

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you love. But for me, more often, it is a longer process than that. And it like, it doesn't just take one

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step. It's not just like, I want to change my style. Poof, my style has changed. It's a development

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process that I have to go through. I want to start off by saying, don't be mad at yourself if you can't live

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up to your own taste on your first try, because that is like a tale as old as time. We all have that

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problem, and the reason you're disappointed in the outcome is because you do have good taste, and

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eventually you will be able to live up to that taste.

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Emma

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And I also think it makes me think about, like, sometimes you'll see, like, a favorite artist, like maybe a

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great filmmaker, or something, them have an interview, and they're like, this film is garbage. I'm doing a

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fake cigarette right now, total garbage. I hate it. And you're like, wow, I thought this was like, kind of like,

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the most amazing thing they've made in their career so far. And it's because even for them, even for

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people who are professionals, or you might look up to or have won awards, amazing awards out in the

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world, they have the same thing where their taste, they're like, not quite caught up to their taste yet.

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And so it's like, you're always chasing that. And so I would kind of say, try to be okay with that and

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enjoy that. Try to just, you know, it's uncomfortable, but like, just know that that's not a bad thing. And

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so maybe, like, you know, chill out a little bit because the journey is like, what you're going to be on until

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you die. So you should try to enjoy it, if you can't.

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Elsie

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Yes, okay, so yeah, we're building with Legos here, and each project is one Lego brick, and you cannot

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build your Lego Castle without starting with one brick. Yeah, sorry. Okay, so step one, develop your

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taste. Be a fan, appreciate art. So this is something early in my career. I don't know what to call it, early

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in blogging.

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Emma

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I don't like that you're laughing saying career.

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Elsie

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My early career was, like, not really a career. It was a little bit like, it was a weird origin story. So I think

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early on, I felt like I was, like, afraid to be like, a big fan in public, because for one, I like, felt like, if I

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showed my appreciation, then people would, like, compare my work to that. And I mean, it's definitely

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like that with writing, where it's like, you say, you like, say, like, my favorite writers are these three

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people. And then you, like, hold out your manuscript, and you're like, Oh.

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Emma

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It's scary. You're telling me it's not like, Barbara King Grover, oh.

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Elsie

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Yeah, it's like, a little little pat on the shoulder, yeah, um, but yeah, I think that a big part of developing

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your palette is being a fan and appreciating art and consuming as much of it as you can. So whatever

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your project, be a voracious fan of that thing. And if it's reading, read like all over the different library

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sections, don't just stay in one. I think that's a very, very important part of growing and if it's art, you

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know, don't just stay, like, only focused on your favorite artist. Study 10, like, have 10 favorite artists. I

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think that, like, the more you can expand your fandom, you're, like, actually growing your taste on the

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inside at the same time.

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Emma

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In this phase two, I would say, I think you're going to probably gravitate towards becoming a fan of the

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types of art or work or things that you're interested in yourself. But I would also encourage you to push

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yourself to be a fan and grow your taste in areas that you have no intention of copying. Like, you know,

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for example, I do like fashion, and I wear clothes every day, but I don't really aspire to be a fashion

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designer. I don't really aspire to be going to New York for a Fashion Week. Like, that's not really

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something I've ever been been on my radar. But I still think going to the library and going to the fashion

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section reading some books or like, finding like, Oh, I love Alexander McQueen. Oh, I love, like, that's

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cool. That's a cool thing to do, and you should do it. Find your favorite, you know, designer, your

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favorite painter, a few favorite musicians, favorite filmmakers. Like, it's great to, you know, spread

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yourself out across all these different creative areas, if nothing else. Like, this is truly just about

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appreciating great art. That's, that's the goal, and one of the goals, anyway, in this step. So yes, you

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know, you want to be a writer. Yes, read a lot, but also, love films, love music, love fashion, love

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photography, love painting. You know, whatever. It doesn't have to be all those things. But, like, pick

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more than just your field.

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Elsie

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Yeah, I think that's really good. And if you want to be a. A like, a tactile person like me. You can start a

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journal for this. You can start a journal for anything you really can't No one's stopping you a journal of

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just like art I love. You could write on the front of it, inspiration, you know, anything like that. And just

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collect, collect, collect, you know, like, write in it, your playlist. Write in it, what movies you want to see.

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And I think to Emma's point, it's true that, like, you might get the greatest idea for a novel from a film or

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a song and like it, yeah, the categories definitely touch each other and overlap.

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Emma

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Or you might end up writing a character who is a musician or a fashion designer or whatever, and now

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you have some appreciation of that field. You know, it all bleeds together, but mainly it's just having an

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appreciation for beautiful, interesting things that are out there in the world, which I think is a worthwhile

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pursuit in and of itself.

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Elsie

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Yeah, I agree. All right. Step two is make derivative work on purpose. Yeah, this is so important, and

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you're going to keep doing so until you start to see your own style emerge, and it will. I remember, in

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like, the covid days, I was making replica paintings of like, fame, like I was literally trying to copy exactly

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a Grandma Moses painting, and I think a Matisse painting, I can't remember anymore, yeah, I think it

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was a Matisse painting. Anyway, I was just copying them. It was not to show. It was for learning. It was

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for the education of it. And I've heard this advice all over different types of creative work. I think, well,

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with my husband, he is musician. He tells me, everyone who starts songwriting has an early phase

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where they are just like a blatant copycat of whatever their favorite band is at that time. And that's

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normal. You hope you won't get famous for that a few people in life do, but you know, most people

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don't. Most people, it's like, you recognize someone's kind of they're learning. And it's not a shameful

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thing to make derivative work early in your learning process. It's totally normal, and I think it's good. I

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will defend it, because I think that it's a way to self teach. You know, copying something you admire is

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just more exciting than copying something you don't admire.

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Emma

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Yeah, and I'll say too in this step, you know, for the most part, 99% of the time, let's say that this is not

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the step where you stop and then start selling your word. This is the step where you're learning and

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also, like you can kind of stop at this step if you never plan to sell your work. So again, you know, let's

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say fashion. I was sick on that for some reason I don't know if I'm like, never going to sell fashion. I

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don't want to make it, to sell it on Etsy. I don't want to, you know, that's not my inspiration. Then I'm like,

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I can forever just be trying to put together outfits, like the ones I see on Pinterest or my favorite

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designer or whatever, I can just be derivative forever, if it's just for me. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with

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that. It's just fine. It's just being a fan forever. If you want to become an artist who has their own point of

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view, and especially if you want to sell your work, you're going to need to move to step three. But this

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step two is, can be the finish line if you don't really have any aspirations beyond it.

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Elsie

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True, that's fine. Every single time I go to a flea market, I see a Bob Ross style painting, yeah. And it's

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like, there's nothing wrong with all these Bob Ross people. Like, I imagine the like, I don't know, the

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Linda's and the Karens who made these paintings in the 80s in their living room with their TV on. And I

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think it's great, yeah, and they probably had some fun from Bob Ross.

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Emma

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You probably had so much fun. He's, like, so fun to watch.

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Elsie

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got the vibe. Oh, yeah, um. And yeah, I've heard a lot of people say, Okay, so

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like, one of my favorite painters who, like, I got a lot out of this in my 20s, Jim Hauser, do you remember

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him? Yes, this book that I was obsessed with. So anyway, he had this quote. It said, like, give away

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your first 100 paintings. I think that that's like, a good way to think of it. If you want to become

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commercially viable, you want to become an expert, you want to become a professional, then you

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should be okay with either tossing to the side or doing it just for fun. I think in writing, fan fiction is pretty

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popular. A lot of people get their start, especially younger people, their first book is fan fiction that I think

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it's a great way to learn, because you don't have to build your own world as deeply you kind of have,

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like this diving board to jump off from.

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Emma

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And you know you can't sell it, so it kind of takes that pressure off.

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Elsie

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Yeah, you know you're not gonna make money from it. You're just doing it for fun. And I think that things

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like that, that is great advice. So, yeah, I think that you should embrace it, and I think you should do it

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even more. Just know that this isn't this is one step. This is not the final destination. Obviously, like,

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copying is bad when you're passing it off as your own work, you know, like and you're pretending to be

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a professional, but it's not bad when you're in an education phase at all. So yep. Okay, you want to say

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step three.

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Emma

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So we've made a lot of derivative work, so now we're on to step three, which is to keep developing,

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keep growing, keep making To infinity and beyond. I also think this is the time. Another thing I would

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say is like, mash it up. So now it's like, take two different artists that you've been making derivative work

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from, and try to mash them together and like something you like about, you know, like, that's sort of

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what a lot of art is.

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Elsie

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Pick something with some contrast, like, pick, don't pick, like, two bands that sound kind of alike, pick

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two bands that sound different, and mix those two things together.

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Emma

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Hopefully this will be kind of easy for you if you've done step one and two, because you're a fan of lot of

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different things, and you're familiar with so many different things, different styles, different even

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disciplines. So it's going to be easier for you to do this kind of mashing up, trying things phase and also

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during Step two, while you're making all that derivative work, you probably discovered things that you

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enjoyed about the process. Oh, I really loved painting with these types of brushes. Oh, I really loved

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writing in first person. Oh, I really love, you know, whatever. So now you kind of have a better

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understanding of what you like, what you might be good at, what you might be bad at, what you could

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improve on that is important to you, what you don't need to improve on, because you're never going to

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do it again like you kind again. Like you kind of have a sense of those things, and so you can use that

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in your tool belt as you start to mash up different things, different ideas you might have. I almost feel

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like step three in many ways, like just kind of naturally happens over time. Like you might think, oh, I'll

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just be a copycat forever if I copy people. But it's like, I really think if you're doing that and you're a fan

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of lots of different things, it just starts to happen. It just kind of starts to seep into your work where

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you're like, Well, I was imitating Grandma Moses, but I was also thinking about this, like Warhol painting

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and this, like Cezanne painting. And then I just thought, you know, what if I and that's just kind of how it

00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:27.000
goes, like, it's just sort of like, becomes this. It's like yours. Your brain just starts to evolve because

00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:28.000
you're swimming and all these different things all the time. So it'll just kind of happen.

00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:29.000
Elsie

00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:30.000
Yeah, and I think be generous, citing your influences, praising your influences. I don't think it's ever cute

00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:31.000
to be like to pretend like something came out of nothing.

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Emma

00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:33.000
It's not cute.

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Elsie

00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:35.000
I have this little quote on my Pinterest, and a look at it every day that says, like, I'm a museum of

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everything I've loved. And I think that's such a great way to look at art and creativity in general, that for

00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:37.000
our whole lives, we're basically like this little pin board, and we're just pinning more things on every day

00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.000
to ourself, and then we move forward. And, you know, like when I was in fourth grade, my favorite novel

00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:39.000
was Jurassic Park, like that will always be pinned on me. You know, that will always be one little part,

00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:40.000
and it will never leave me my entire life. And you know what I mean? Like the books you love in

00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:41.000
different parts of your life, the art the museum visits, the songs that you listened to 100 times when you

00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:42.000
were going through a breakup or a sad time or a loss, or, you know, yeah, the ways you celebrate, like,

00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:43.000
just all of those things. So no one, I don't know. So that my point is we're all going to be unique just by

00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:44.000
living different lives.

00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:45.000
Emma

00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:46.000
Having different experiences, having different influences, being a fan of so many different things, you'll

00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:47.000
never meet another person who's a fan of exactly all the same things you are, unless you only have,

00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:48.000
like, two things you like, it's true. So if you have 100 and you're never going to meet someone who's

00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.000
like, I love Alexander McQueen and the Muppets.

00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:50.000
Elsie

00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000
Yeah, that's my sister. That's me. No, I think it's very special. So yeah, hopefully this was helpful for

00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:52.000
Haley and for anyone who gets a little bit in your head about creativity, like, just keep making more.

00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:53.000
Keep going. Like, don't stop yourself. Don't beat yourself up when you're new to something like, you're

00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:54.000
going, you're going to make things inspired by other people. And like, so did Picasso honestly, like, so I

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think that, I think it's good to know, I think it's good to like, embrace it, and I don't know, do it even

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harder.

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Emma

00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:58.000
Yeah and it's just feedback, you know? So if you're like, at the point where you feel like you have

00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:59.000
something original, and maybe you're offering it for sale, and you're getting a lot of feedback, that is that

00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:00.000
looks exactly. Like, this artist, that's feedback that you should maybe take in and be like, Oh, maybe I'm

00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.000
not quite there. Let's go back to, you know, mashing things up, trying to find my style again. It doesn't

00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:02.000
mean like you're a bad person and you should never make art again. No, it doesn't mean that it's just

00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.000
feedback of like, maybe you're not quite there. Maybe, you know, people are seeing it, you know, where

00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:04.000
it's too similar to some of your heroes. So, yeah, go back to the drawing board. No big deal, yeah, for

00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:05.000
sure.

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Elsie

00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:07.000
And hopefully, with any luck, you know, eventually you're gonna be you're gonna hear people saying,

00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:08.000
Oh, this reminds me of and they'll say something that makes you, like, happy and proud. But is also

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surprising. It's like, not someone you were trying to copy. It's just someone you like in the world.

00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:10.000
Emma

00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:11.000
Yeah, thank you. Wow. Never thought of that, but that's wonderful. Yeah, those are, like, the best

00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:12.000
compliments.

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Elsie

00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:14.000
I think you know that you're doing good work when you start getting feedback and when people are

00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.000
saying it reminds me of they're saying something different each time. I think that's a good litmus test.

00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:16.000
Emma

00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.000
People are like, you copied this, and they say five different things that it's like, Ah, that's good. Like,

00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:18.000
you're actually in the phase where this is probably pretty original, because they can't even put their

00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:19.000
finger on or you're getting different people saying, different artists, different things. Yes, good sign.

00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:20.000
Elsie

00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:21.000
Whoo, okay, we have a topic of discussion from Corey. Oh, it's a book question. You know, we love the

00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:22.000
book question.

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Emma

00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:24.000
I love this question. I like wrote Corey back right away when I saw it from the email box, which, if you

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ever get an email from me, a lot of times, I'm not replying to the one you sent, because we get sent

00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:26.000
them in bulk. So it probably feels like out of the blue. It's just like random, like, hello, I'm answering a

00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:27.000
question that you maybe sent me two weeks ago.

00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:28.000
Elsie

00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.000
I only write back to the ones that are very specific, niche questions that are only for me, and then the

00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:30.000
rest of the questions I usually save for the podcast.

00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.000
Emma

00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:32.000
Mine's clearly random. Anyway, okay, Corey says I've had a book idea bouncing around my brain for

00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.000
about six years. Recently, the characters have become so vivid that it feels like the moment to actually

00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.000
write the thing in my imagination. I'm already casting the Netflix series, but I also know the first thing

00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:35.000
most people write is rarely their best. So do I spend this year learning to write in quotes, on something

00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:36.000
else and save this good idea for later, or do I just go all in on the story that refuses to leave my head?

00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:37.000
Elsie

00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:38.000
Okay, I think we have good advice for this. Yeah, do you want to go first? Tell us. I hope so. Tell us what

00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:39.000
you responded to, Corey.

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Emma

00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:41.000
I was like, write the idea for sure. Because I was like, Corey, you're right. Usually people's first book

00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:42.000
isn't very good, and that is true. I'm not going to sugarcoat it for you. Sometimes it's not true, but most

00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.000
of the time it is true. It's not very good, but I lied, yeah, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's great, yeah.

00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:44.000
But mainly I think, like, that's besides the point. I am kind of of the belief, and this is very woo, woo. But

00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.000
when ideas come to us, it is just our job to bring them into the world, and maybe they're good, maybe

00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.000
they it comes out and it's not great. Maybe you can sell it and it's best selling and it's Twilight. Maybe it's

00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.000
something that you just show a couple friends and they're like, Oh, neat hobby, you know, like,

00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:48.000
whatever. It doesn't really matter. That part is like, it's a thing, and you'll have to face it, but I think it's

00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.000
besides the point, because I kind of think the whole thing is the journey, and this idea clearly won't

00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:50.000
leave her head. So she should write it, and I hope it turns out amazing. I bet it'll turn out pretty good,

00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:51.000
probably better than she thinks. But I don't think you should like practice writing something else. If you

00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:52.000
want to practice, like exercises, that's great. Like, if you're like, I'm reading a writer. Like, I'm reading a

00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:53.000
writing book and I'm doing like little exercises from the book, great, but I think, like, you've got this fully

00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:54.000
formed idea what a gift. Write it, yeah?

00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:55.000
Elsie

00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:56.000
Like, worst case scenario, it turns out bad, and you can rewrite it later.

00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.000
Emma

00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:58.000
Yeah. Editing is easy.

00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:59.000
Elsie

00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.000
I have literally done that. And I like, I Okay. So first of all, to validate you. Six years is long time. You

00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000
have to do it. You have to do it. Like, listen to big sister. You have to, like, I don't think this is really even

00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000
optional. And when you're at the point where the characters feel real to you, like, you have to, so just

00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.000
like, open up a Word document and start writing. And I think that the fear and the advice that like your

00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000
first novel is not going to be good. I think that it keeps a lot of people from writing a first novel. And

00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.000
yeah, it might be true. It might it might break your heart a little, but like having recently had that

00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:06.000
heartbreak myself. I promise you, it's worth it. It's not that big of a deal. It's totally recoverable. We just,

00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.000
you know, and I'm glad I did it, and I'm glad I used my best idea first. I think you should. I think that

00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:08.000
that's sort of like how you invite more ideas in the future, is like always using the one like you. Can't not

00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:09.000
do this. So I think you know what you have to do. Corey, write us back in a month or two and tell us

00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:10.000
you've started, and tell us how it's going, and we will be cheering you on. And for anyone who wants to

00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.000
know if it's worth it to write a novel, even though it might be bad, it's worth it, like I promise you, it's so

00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.000
worth it, and you don't have to do you can do a practice novel if you want. I've heard people that make

00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000
a case for this.

00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:14.000
Emma

00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:15.000
Especially if you don't really have an idea.

00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:16.000
Elsie

00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:17.000
It doesn't really matter what you write first. I don't think, like, just write something if you love it, you'll

00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:18.000
probably still love it later. You can fix a lot of things in editing. Editing is magical. Like, I did not know

00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:19.000
that before I started, like, it's not just writing a first draft. Like the editing is kind of where the magic

00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:20.000
happens, and it's wonderful. And I think that I don't know, I just hate that so many people walk around

00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000
with like, stories inside of them, but they're not, like, willing to, like, take the risk of it being bad.

00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:22.000
Emma

00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:23.000
Just let it be whatever it is. Don't worry about it. It just doesn't really matter. There's no way to know. So

00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:24.000
why even you know worry about it's like having regret about something you can't change. It's like, well,

00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000
you can walk around thinking about that every single day if you want. But I would point out that's maybe

00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000
not going to like, help you live your life so you just move forward, you know. And if you want to write,

00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.000
just write. And maybe you'll write Twilight, and maybe you'll write a bunch of books that you just very

00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:28.000
enjoyed writing. And that's fine, because what else you got to do with your time? You know? Like, just,

00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.000
it's fun to do things that you enjoy. Why not? Why does it matter if it turns out a mate, like, what's, what

00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:30.000
is this? You know, I just think it's that there's a lot of marketing for certain books where it's like, this is

00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:31.000
their debut, and they won the Pulitzer, and that's great, cool marketing that makes me want to read a

00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:32.000
book if I heard that. But that's marketing, okay, you don't need to worry about that. That's just like, how

00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.000
they sell us stuff, like, you can just write and enjoy it. That's like, what it is.

00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:34.000
Elsie

00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000
Yeah, it's magical. Yeah, you just, you just got to do it, and it takes away the fear. Like, once you've

00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:36.000
done it, once, like, I have no fear for the future. I have no fear for my next book being a flop anymore,

00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.000
which is so great, like, I don't care. And it, like, it like it has no power over me anymore. Yeah, so I think

00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:38.000
that's a wonderful thing that you have ahead of you too.

00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:39.000
Emma

00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:40.000
And for Cory especially, I think too, it's like, it's a lot easier to write when you're inspired. So, and I still

00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.000
think if you want to write a practice novel, great, go for it.

00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:42.000
Elsie

00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:43.000
But still do a topic you're obsessed with. I think, yeah, you should be obsessed with your own topic. You

00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:44.000
have to.

00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:45.000
Emma

00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:46.000
I think it's hard to write something you're not obsessed with. I think it would be a bit of a drag. And it's

00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:47.000
like, Well, I think the whole point is to enjoy writing so, and hopefully you have something in the end that

00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:48.000
you can show, but I think the point was to enjoy it. So I kind of have to write stuff that I'm interested in.

00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.000
Elsie

00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:50.000
Okay, beautiful. Okay. So we have book report. Okay, I'm just gonna be honest, I'm having a really bad

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:51.000
reading month. I started three different books and I don't have anything to report on, so I'm just gonna

00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.000
toss it to Emma and let her report. I have some months too.

00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:53.000
Emma

00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:54.000
I feel like I'm either, like, in a book and I'm like, so into it, or I'm like, I just started two different ones and

00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.000
I wasn't sure about them, and then I, you know now I'm like, trying another one.

00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:56.000
Elsie

00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:57.000
I don't know, but I know I'm spinning out when I just keep starting things. And that happens to me, I do

00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.000
that.

00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.000
Emma

00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:00.000
Yeah, okay, well, my book report is I just finished, State of Wonder.

00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.000
Elsie

00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:02.000
Sorry, it's one of my favorite books, I'm so happy.

00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:03.000
Emma

00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:04.000
Yeah, and well, in I think this is maybe the first, I'm thinking, I think it might be the first from the stash of

00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:05.000
40 books you gave me for my 40th birthday, because this was in the stash.

00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:06.000
Elsie

00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:07.000
That was the only one I told you when I gave it to you. That was the only one that was really for me,

00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:08.000
and all the rest of them were from, like, the email list and the podcast list.

00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.000
Emma

00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:10.000
To be honest, I didn't even remember that. I don't know why. I guess it was in there somewhere.

00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.000
Because I was like, this will be the first one.

00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:12.000
Elsie

00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:13.000
Because I've already forced you to read a lot of my favorite books. Yeah, this was one of the ones that

00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:14.000
was still lingering.

00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:15.000
Emma

00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:16.000
So, yeah, we do that too. This is only the second Anne Patchett that I've ever read. I don't know how

00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:17.000
this is. You know, there's so many great books in the world, and I feel, I feel like I've read lots of great

00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:18.000
books, but also, there's still so many more. You know, that's the great thing about reading. But anyway,

00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.000
this was only my second hand hatchet. I also read Tom lake. So this was my second state of wonder.

00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:20.000
This will have spoilers. So this has been out for like, more than 10 years, but still, if you haven't read

00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:21.000
state of wonder and you want to and you don't want spoilers, don't listen to this part, just skip ahead. So

00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:22.000
anyway, I loved this book. I thought it was super inspiring and so fun to read. It is very literary. So Anne

00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:23.000
Patrick's a beautiful, beautiful writer. Most of this book takes place in the Amazon or the city near the

00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:24.000
Amazon. Yeah, so it's very atmospheric. It's got a lot of environment. And if you're like, Well, what is the

00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.000
book like? What's the genre? It's like, well, it's literary. It's a literary book. But also it is kind of science

00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:26.000
fiction. We're dealing with scientists who are studying a tribe in the Amazon, because the women in the

00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:27.000
tribe can have children up until they die. So they can have children in their 50s, 60s, 70s. And so the

00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:28.000
scientists are studying them, hoping to replicate that for all women, so that women don't have to so that

00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:29.000
they could have children later in life, if that's what they want to choose. So that's sort of the premise.

00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:30.000
And the book starts with a death. A scientist has gone down there, and he's died, and so someone else

00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:31.000
has dispatched another scientist to go find out what happened to him. There's not a lot of details around

00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:32.000
it, maybe get his body, or at least get any personal items for his family, and to also check in on the

00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:33.000
scientists who are down there developing this drug. Because it's taking a long, long time, as science

00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:34.000
often does. So anyway, that's sort of what happens. I didn't know where we were going to go with it. I

00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:35.000
was like, oh, and pageant, I'm sure it'll just be beautiful, and I'll be reading these beautiful descriptions

00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:36.000
of the Amazon and that'll be fun. But then the plot gets wild. So these are the spoilers. So the very old

00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:37.000
doctor who's down there studying she's 70 or like 73 she's pregnant, and she gives birth during the

00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:38.000
book. And then the book opens with that scientist who dies. His name is Anders, and you find out later

00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:39.000
that he's not dead, and they retrieve him from a neighboring tribe. That's like, cannibals. Yeah, there's

00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:40.000
cannibals. There's a 70 year old having a baby. There's a dead man who's alive. It's crazy. So the plot

00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:41.000
is actually like, wild, like, you know, if this was poorly written, it would be an insane soap opera, but it is

00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:42.000
so beautifully written. It's this literary work for man Paget. So it's just a lot of fun. And there's an

00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:43.000
Anaconda, there's, you know, just crazy, lots and lots of bugs, lots and lots of just madness, really. And

00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:44.000
it's really beautiful and fun and crazy, and I thought it was a blast to read. So great review.

00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:45.000
Elsie

00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:46.000
I'm pretty sure I read four of her books, and this was my this is my favorite so far. It's my reigning

00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.000
champion. Oh, I thought Dutch house was your favorite. No, this one, okay, I love Dutch house too. You

00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:48.000
know for the Tom Hanks of it all.

00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.000
Emma

00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:50.000
Right, right, right, right. Of course, of course.

00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.000
Elsie

00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:52.000
But yeah, no, this book is, it's so magical. But I also wanted to, like note, if you've ever read the book

00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.000
Big Magic, this is the book from Big Magic where Elizabeth Gilbert kind of says, like, the idea left her

00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:54.000
and went to someone else. It was the idea for this book, and it went to Anne Patchett. So when I read

00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:55.000
the book, I and I realized it was like, from Big Magic, which I am obsessed with. I don't know. I think it's

00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:56.000
such a cool story, like an origin story for, like, you know, I love Big Magic, yes, the idea abandoned

00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:57.000
Elizabeth Gilbert and made home in in patch it instead. I think it's great.

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Emma

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And that's why you have to write your idea.

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Elsie

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Cory, yes, yes. That's why you have to do it. Like I that is actually a fear that keeps me motivated. Is,

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like the fear that if I don't write this book, that someone else will, and I think that's really, like, a big part

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of where my first novel came from. Like, it like, if, you know, if I wouldn't have done it, and then it would

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have just come out, and that happens all the time. That is real. It's a good source of inspiration. I mean,

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motivation, yeah, a little bit of fear isn't gonna hurt you. A little fear is good.

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Emma

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Little fear is good, too much, and that's a problem. Yeah, yeah. I'll also say, just for anyone out there

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who's like studying writing, because you want to write, this book has a lot of backstory, and I've seen

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reviews where they say it's too much backstory, but I thought it was really well done. There is a lot of

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backstory, and I thought it was really well done. So I think it's a great example of a book. If you're like,

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I'm not good at backstory, I feel like, you know, I don't get it in there in the way that I want. I want to see

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a writer who's really great writer do backstory. I would read state of wonder. It's got a whole bunch of

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backstory and and you really don't feel it. It's just there and important. So anyway, if you're looking to

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write more backstory, State of Wonder might be a good reference for you.

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Elsie

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Yeah, no, it probably is. I hate the writing advice when people say to cut all the backstory. Like, I just

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think it's like, this is, this is not a 20,000 word screenplay.

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Emma

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Ann Patchett didn't, of course, I'm not Ann Patchett but nevertheless.

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Elsie

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It can just add so much, like, depth to your characters in the second half, you know, and so much

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payoff. Like, I just think it's great. Yeah. Now it’s time for our special segment, a joke or a fact with

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Nova. Hey, Nova, what do you have for us this week?

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Nova

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I have a riddle.

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Elsie

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A riddle. Okay, I'm ready.

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Nova

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Although it's a very long one.

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Elsie

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Okay, all right.

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Nova

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If there's 305 bricks on an airplane, one falls out. How many are there?

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Elsie

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304.

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Nova

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All right, how do you put an elephant in the fridge?

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Elsie

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I don't know.

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Nova

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You open the door, you put him in. You close the door. How do you put a giraffe in the fridge?

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Elsie

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You open it up, put him in and close the door.

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Nova

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No, you forgot one part. You open the door, you take the elephant out, and then you put him in. The

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Lion King is hosting a party. Out of all the animals, which animals missing?

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Elsie

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Ooh, the hyena?

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Nova

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No, it's the giraffe, because he's stuck in the refrigerator. And then Sally's going to the party, and she

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has to cross a river of very hungry looking crocodiles. How does she survive?

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Elsie

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How?

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Nova

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They're at the party, but she still dies. How?

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Elsie

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I don't know. How?

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Nova

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From the brick at the beginning one. That's the end of the riddle.

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Elsie

00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:01.000
Wow, that's an interesting riddle. I've never heard that one. Have a good week.

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Nova

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Bye.

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Elsie

00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:05.000
All right. Thank you so much for listening. So we are fresh out of hot takes for our segment. Hot take

00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:06.000
debate. If you have a hot take, email it to us at podcast@abeautifulmess.com and the other request we

00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:07.000
have is we are really debating if we're going to do. Do summer, if we're going to do the whole summer

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schedule, if we're going to do every other week, if we're going to do one a month, we just don't know.

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But the truth is, we need more ideas. Yeah, if we're going to do them, it's possible still, but we need

00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:10.000
more ideas. So email us your request specifically for like, your dream episode request at podcast at a

00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:11.000
beautiful mess.com and we will try our best to fill the summer for you.