Dissecting Dave Martinez & Mike Rizzo firings by Nationals ownership

00:00:00
Speaker 1: It's not just that the big league club has underperformed this year. You have a draft and development process that has not produced impact players for more than a decade.

00:00:14
Speaker 2: It is a pleasure to be joined by Barry's for Luga, for Luga. How do you say that, Barry? I need I get my name butchered all of the time. Tell me how to properly pronounce your last name.

00:00:25
Speaker 1: So I say this not facetiously. It's what I always say. It's it's honestly, all the letters in a row, so you can't screw up if you're like a five year old. It's for Luga.

00:00:36
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not smart of.

00:00:37
Speaker 3: Those, and I want to know how they mess up? Rizzo, how do you mess up?

00:00:42
Speaker 2: They always mess up. It's like a Lena Atlanta. I've been called all kinds of things, some of which are not ready for for television, for air, Barry, It's great to be with you. A lot going on, obviously with the Washington Nationals. Is the timing a bit odd to you? Did you see this coming?

00:00:59
Speaker 1: You know it's because everybody will point to the draft that's I'm coming. And they have one to one the most important pick that they've had in a long, long time, and Mike Rizzo obviously made his name as a scout. He put this franchise into a winner behind two to one ones in Steven Strasburg and Bryce Harpour more than a decade ago. So yeah, that timing is weird, but I think you make this kind of move, and it's really a seismic move, given that the general manager had been here since two thousand and six and been in that chair since two thousand and nine, and Dave Martinez, the manager, took over in twenty eighteen. You make it not just because of one draft or one small situation. Optically, you want to do it at a time when the big league club isn't playing well and they just got you know, three they got swept by the Red Sox at home in three really uncompetitive games. That timing feels right optically. And also, though I mean, you don't make this change in a flippant way. You do it because it's not just that the big legue club has underperformed this year, but really, you have a draft and development process that has not produced impact players for more than a decade, their last truly impactful player in the big leagues that they drafted was Anthony Rendon, who went sixth in the twenty eleven draft. That's a long long time ago. They obviously get credit for signing Juan Soto as an amateur free agent, for sure, but it's been too many misses and not enough hits, and that's left them with a big league club that really their best players are all the players that they got in the Juan Soto trade in twenty twenty two. A lot of misses around that, so timing weird because of the draft, but overall, it's a big, big move for an organization that needed to make a big big move.

00:02:45
Speaker 4: Is this why the ownership was reticent to bring any free agents in? We felt like this was a year that it was time to strike because we looked at past blueprint bringing Jason Worth in. You have a cj Abrams, you have a Mackenzie Gore, you have James Wood. Those guys that, okay, these are going to be the core. Time to bring somebody like a Pee Alonzo in. Do you feel like this was just coming because ownership was like, well, we're not going to push in with these guys, We're gonna go with the next guys.

00:03:15
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's the big question. Are they going to go with the next guys? Are they going to push in? I mean, I think it would be a disservice to to Mike Rizzo to wait and then say, oh, now we're providing resources that you didn't have, that you weren't allowed to do. And you're right about the first build, like they signed Jason Worth to a seven year deal a year before they were really ready to win, because at that point they could say, hey, big lead free agent who won a World Series elsewhere, here's what we have, here's where we're going, here's where you fit, and we're going to follow through on some promises after that. At this point, where they have would, where they have Gore, where they have Abrams, they have not gone in on any multi year free agent deals other than a two year kind of a deal for Trevor Williams that isn't going to impact anyway. So that they have now a clubhouse that doesn't that has, yes, good young pieces, but it doesn't have veterans who are going to be there or and are invested in the process going forward. That's on ownership. They have prevented that from happening, and that's why I think the decision that's upcoming is is a two way interview. It's yes, the Learner family saying to any candidate, what would you bring to the table, what's your vision? But those candidates have to look across the table and ask ownership, if I take this job, what resources are you going to provide me? And that's not just in major league payroll. That's in R and D, that's an analysis, that's in scouting, that's in player development, that's in technology. They are not up to par with the major league standards in any of those regards. Anybody who takes this job would want to ask those questions.

00:04:52
Speaker 3: Why why though?

00:04:54
Speaker 4: Why?

00:04:54
Speaker 3: Why? Why are the Learners not spending money they used to in the past. They used to have a direct catline just boris. Why why did they stop? Is it because they want to sell the team? They tried and they took them off the market. What's the reason? Because I cannot look at Mike Rizzo. Yes, you can blame draft picks and you can blame this, but they made good trades and David Martinez, he didn't change the way he managed. So I have to look at the Learners and say, why did you stop spending for no reason because in the past you've done it. You saw the fruits. You get Sures or you get Corbin, you get these guys and you go out and you win a World Series and then you just turn the faucet off. Why.

00:05:29
Speaker 1: So it's a really complex question, AJ and I don't know that everybody anybody knows the full answer. But we'll get touched on a couple points, like did they get scared by the Stevens Strossburg contract? He opted out of his deal after he became the World Series MVP in twenty nineteen. Scott Boris went right to work with Ted Lerner, the late patriarch of the family, and they came to a seven year, two hundred and forty five million dollars deal that obviously was disastrous. I think Strasburg pitched fifteen to two thirds in on that deal. He's retired now they're still paying him. That really hurt. Secondly, the pandemic, which affected everybody, really really took a hit on the Learner's real estate development. They're real estate people, they're commercial real estate people. And what was not coming back after the pandemic, office space, all that kind of stuff. Mauls We can't quantify what kind of impact that had on their spending on their second business, which is the baseball team. But you can't tell me that there's not some sort of relationship there. And then you had a fan base that they could not take advantage of the momentum from a World Series championship because the twenty twenty season was held without fans. That Nationals team in which they got the band back together, didn't make the playoffs, and the next two summers were Sell Schuzer and Trey Turner at the deadline in twenty twenty one, sell Soto at the deadline and lose one hundred and seven games in twenty twenty two. That had a real impact on the fan base. I see it as a chicken and egg thing. They they want more people come through the turnstyles so they can then turn it into payroll. I would say, you need to put some money into payroll so that more people come through the turnstyles and you can really sink it into the team. Kratz.

00:07:21
Speaker 5: We talk about Hello Fresh a lot, but in the same fam is another option for you if you're looking to go on your little wellness journey, or you're very picky in terms of what you're looking for ingredients wise, you can go green Chef this summer and.

00:07:34
Speaker 4: I can heat and eat Because this summer I've got like three days where I'm not doing anything. I'm sure those are going to get scheduled with something. Let's give me something super quick that I can heat up. The whole family's eating healthy and.

00:07:47
Speaker 5: Therefore menus change weekly eighty plus Dietician improved weekly meal options. Green Chef makes it easy to find those meals to fit your lifestyle, so go check it out. Ft fam. There is an exclusive off for make this summer your healthiest yet with Green Chef. Head to green chef dot com slash fifty territory and use code five zero territory to get fifty percent off your first month and twenty percent off for two months with free shipping. That's quode fifty territory at greenshep dot com slash five zero territory.

00:08:20
Speaker 2: Barry, how much does the on again, off again potential sale of the team. How much do you think all of that has impacted? Perhaps the lack of putting, you know, good players on the field. In turn what you were saying chicken and egg getting fans into the stands. I mean, maybe there's just a lot of uncertainty. How much does that play a role.

00:08:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has felt like since they announced their intention to sell, which would have been I'm losing track of years here, beginning of twenty twenty three, I believe that they've had their foot kind of half in the water, like they're just putting their toe in the water now. Mark Learners sat down with me it's FRING training this year and said, we expect to own this thing for the foresee of the future, and we're excited about it. But I've always said, like there has to be an investment of not just finances, but there has to be an investment of emotions and of time. And I don't know in a group where the patriarch, the guiding light is no longer around, if that next generation, which is Marking, his two sisters and his two brothers in laws, can get on the same page enough to where they're all kind of pointed in the same direction that they really are excited to have the team. They don't feel like it's a burden. They feel like it should be a plus for the community, like they haven't been able. If that's the way they feel they haven't been able to articulate that, you know, to the public very clearly.

00:09:46
Speaker 3: All right, I got ask who's next? Who's the manager? They haven't. They can't even announce the manager for tomorrow's game yet. Well, Miguel Chiros So think about it, as in Matt Lee Croy. But then who would be on the list of names for for the Nationals to be their next manager besides aer Kraft?

00:10:04
Speaker 1: So I think the questions backwards, AJ like, I think they should choose a GM, a president of slaw operations early this offseason, start that process now after the trade deadline, and have that person have a heavy hand in who the manager is because in this situation, with a club that's not ready to win on the field and still needs even its best players to develop at the major league level, I think building the infrastructure in the front office is more important than who's deciding what left he used in the seventh inning, because there's got to be a structure that supplies them with the quality lefty option, so you know whoever is here for the rest of the year, and you know Cairo would be an option. I look, Matt Lee Croy would be a really popular choice and fun for the fans. For sure, that person is just a placeholder and really should be the choice. The permanent choice should really be whoever the choice of the president of the baseball operations.

00:11:05
Speaker 2: Do you think Barry that's part of the reason that Miguel Cairo said that he needed to think about it. I mean, obviously the relationship he has with Davey Martinez, they're very close, but these are jobs that are few and far between, and maybe he knows that he's just a placeholder, and maybe he doesn't want to be set up for that, although it could catapult him into another big league job at a different point. What's your take on that.

00:11:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I think one of Davies problems late in the game is that he loved his coaching staff. He made those choices. They're all friends of his and people always had past relationships with and I think, well, that made him very comfortable. It didn't put those guys on edge, and they really haven't developed. These guys. They're still making the same mistakes that they've made in years past, and that's part of the lack of development at the major league level, both on the basis and in the field.

00:11:53
Speaker 4: Mostly.

00:11:54
Speaker 1: So I get that Miguel Cairo might be like, well, you just canned one of my really good good friends. I know that there's really nothing in it for me. I can see the hesitance there. But again, the last half of the season isn't isn't the important part because this season for the Washington Nationals at the big league level is lost. It is who can put together a modern baseball operations department that is on par with others in the industry and is funded by ownership in the way that's appropriate. That's a bigger question in my mind.

00:12:27
Speaker 4: Any manager that wins a World Series is a successful managerial campaign. Is Mike Rizzo's tenure with the Nationals going to be seen as successful because he won one championship or with all the money that was spent, our fans going to look at it as it was Okay, Oh, I.

00:12:47
Speaker 1: Think it was good. I mean, from twenty twelve to twenty nineteen, only the Dodgers won more regular season games than the Washington Nationals. That's pretty heady company right there. Given the resources in LA they won four division titles in that time. They won the wild card that in twenty nineteen that led to the World Series championship. And then there were a litany of reasons why things got got torn down, And as Aj said, you know, this guy made a lot of really good trade. I can trades over the years. I can criticize the development over the last decade, like the drafting hasn't gone well, but find out Mike Rizzo trade that he lost. It's pretty hard to do. And that includes the Sodo deal, which is having a huge impact on the Major League franchise right now. All three of Gore, Wood and Abrams have been All Stars very early in their careers. Now with Gore and Abrams making the Gordon Wood making the team this year, and you still don't know what you're going to get from Robert Hassel and Harlan Susanna, a pitcher who's lowered down in the minors. So I don't think. I think in ten years, if they're going to have a reunion of that World Series championship, Mike Rizzo will be back at National's Park with a cigar in his mouth, waving his hat to the crowd, and they'll be thanking him for it.

00:14:05
Speaker 3: All right, very well, we have You'll have to ask you what happened to Dylan Cruz. I know he's injured, but before that, he couldn't hit.

00:14:11
Speaker 4: What happened?

00:14:12
Speaker 3: This guy hit everywhere he's been.

00:14:14
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's interesting. I think, first of all, take the hitting side. One thing that's impressive about this guy who kind of walks off the bus and carries himself as a major leaguer. He just kind of oozes major leaguer is that those at bats he did not take to the field, And that's a really good sign for his future because he played a really wherever you put him in center or and right, he played a really good outfield. I'd say aj that, yes, he's hit everywhere he's been. I kind of view him as a more of a high floor than a high ceiling guy. Like the chances that he's not a really good major leaguer for a long time are pretty good. But he doesn't have James' James Wood's kind of natural athletic ability. I expect that when he gets back from this obleague, he'll be right back out there and we'll see what the second half yields for him. But you're right, he was disappointing offensively, not quite as much power. Definitely got in some streaks where he was swinging at any junk that was out of the zone and was really an easy out from time to time. He's got to get back in the right headspace and become Dylan Cruz because Dylan and Cruise is pretty hitterish.

00:15:21
Speaker 2: Very before we let you go, we have a fan question here regarding the Washington Nationals. Mike g wants to know, since this leadership change has been happening right now with the firing of Mike Rizzo and Davey Martinez, do you think the Nationals are more apt to trade a Mackenzie Gore now, I mean, does he become more of a candidate at the deadline now because of the change.

00:15:43
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting question. And Mike de Bartlow, Mike Rizzo's longtime assistant GM who started here as an intern, you know, thirteen or fourteen years ago, he's running the show right now, and it's a very interesting question for him because at four plus years of service time, that's ex exactly the amount of service time at which they traded Juan Soto, who, as a Scott Boris client they knew was very unlikely to sign an extension. Mackenzie Gore, Scott Boris' client, would he sign an extension even if he won't. If you hold on to him. Now, there's a really good argument that holding on to him means you should get a commitment from ownership that look, if we have this guy still, we need to build around him. He's only here guaranteed for twenty twenty six. In twenty twenty seven, what are we doing with our payroll if or are we just going to play two more irrelevant big league seasons and let this guy walk? Really really interesting question for Mike de Barbolow, and I think for ownership as well.

00:16:41
Speaker 2: Barry, We appreciate the insight. I know it's been a little bit crazy for you considering everything that's gone on in the last twenty four hours. Thanks for being with the Sunfouled Territory.

00:16:50
Speaker 1: Appreciate you having me anytime.