Episode 69 - GW Rules Oopsies - When lore and tabletop rules dont mix

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Forty K-Lorecast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Forty K. Lorcass with me, John Barsati and Brad Chester.
[SPEAKER_01]: This guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: On today's cast, taking a break from the lore, they do something I want to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were telling stories at many times, GW rules writers just went hard wild and an idea, and it turned out to be completely terrible for everyone and kind of ruined the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sound of the competition, Kafka.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second edition.
[SPEAKER_01]: Six edition.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, look, my thing is at the time, these things were incredibly painful, but looking back on them, some of them are genuinely hilarious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second edition was always hilarious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even the seventh edition, we look back on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's seventh and sixth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second edition was hilarious when you were playing, seventh edition was not hilarious when you were playing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, not at all, but it's, I like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've already got there because there's so much lower behind their decisions.
[SPEAKER_01]: They actually make complete sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that they forgot how this game is made.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but for again, as always,
[SPEAKER_01]: Please comment, like on the cast, it does help us out a lot with our algorithms.
[SPEAKER_01]: It pushes us out really far, so if you can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Secondly, within, you can either go to where we have a website, the FortyKlorcast.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: On that website, there's links to our merchandise.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to purchase some a link to our Discord, a link to our Patreon, and a more so-called link to our, no screw this, you don't do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want everybody to know, and this is shameless promoting.
[SPEAKER_00]: But our gear is like super high quality, and I was super surprised when I got my first.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we actually don't make very much money on our merchandise and the reason why I absorbed the cost of actually having quality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the sweat, the sweat shirts are soft, the hats are soft, the shirts are soft, the goal is actually have some.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're legit.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're legit though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to throw that up.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's people think they're going to get some random shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love to speak it out.
[UNKNOWN]: Fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I wear them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a bunch of it's comfy.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, but with that on the website or actually even the show notes here, you can see a link to our discord.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a place, especially with this topic at hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: I invite many people to come into.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always there.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've mentioned before for, you know, it's a spot for Forty K. Law, for gaming, painting video games more.
[SPEAKER_01]: But especially on this one, if anyone is, if you're not a member of the discord, please join if you are, please just make comments about which rules we glossed over, because we made it doing more of these casts that people like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything I mentioned discord too, big shout out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kevin Maisie, Brian, Ethan, Steve, Ryan, Trevor, and David.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are our mods, and they're why we actually have a discord today, because if they weren't here, I would have deleted it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not managing five thousand people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second of last, shout out again to Hatch Brewing.
[SPEAKER_01]: This stuff is amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyone looking for whiskey's in bourbon, Hatch Brewing, I find it delicious.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, lastly though, coaching this entire cast is talking about how the table top is broken and every single thing we're gonna discuss here, and it's brokenness, Brad played.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's very aware of how to play this game, even when it boarders on cheating.
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to find rules intended?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rules is intended.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not Brad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rules is written, Brad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, sorry, I almost let you get out of shouting your email out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Old man, Brad, Forty-K at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or to go to our website or our discord region.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never, I don't think I'm ever going to get out of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you miss him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's dive into this, because this is a topic I just really do love, and I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: So may these wider rules break.
[SPEAKER_01]: So before we begin, we have to talk about something in the gaming community knows as raw for rules as written.
[SPEAKER_01]: What this means is that if the rule book says something, then that's the rule.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's misspelled, then do the misspelled thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, here's the thing on this, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're, we give a GW shit, but we have one has this problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a GW problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm just saying, it's also, we have a harder time than, like, say a card game or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is why you get, I'm going to give me the sound for rules on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have got twenty seven factions that have forty eight attachments per that all have different interactions on the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you have different, you know, the different rules.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have the core rules of the game on top of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, and then, so there's, there's a, the Forty K rule book is not a condensed document.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, and it's also, you can remember this is a game that was set up to be a beer and pretzel game.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, in your friends in the basement, wherever playing,
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the size of the table right now is because it's the average size of a dining room table.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the size was not anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but the rules has written means that whatever is written down is there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is, this creates a conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something else called rules as intended.
[SPEAKER_01]: And rules is intended means, you know, what you think is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, I see that this is misspelled, but I know they intended to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: The conflict between these two is the vein of existence for rules writers and event coordinates.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why is that you're hosting an event for, I would say hundreds, we read dozens of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't let each and every one of them interpret the rules as they see fit because first off,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they may not agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not even calling people being jerks here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying in a rational setting, if you're playing rules as intended, what happens often on just two people may agree to something?
[SPEAKER_00]: They might disagree.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But those people, you know, they agree may then go to play their next game against someone who disagrees.
[SPEAKER_01]: It creates this kind of unfairness, probably the best way to explain.
[SPEAKER_01]: It actually does create an unfair scenario.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what we have to do is we have to play the game with rules as written.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the next piece to that rules is written is the way GW writes the rules.
[SPEAKER_01]: And almost every game state does this is what's called a permissive rule set, which means if the rule says you can do something, you can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can only do it if the rule book says it as opposed to a prohibitive rule set, where just whatever unless it says you can't, you can.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that just is an argument.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it doesn't exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the biggest complaints
[SPEAKER_01]: Forty K gets a GW gets in my mind unfair grief on this because you'll see I'm covering here.
[SPEAKER_01]: They made mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: They came from good places.
[SPEAKER_01]: What people can creep because they have to write something what has played rules has written and it has to be in a permissive rule set, which means if if the interaction is busted and the rules are no good, that's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about what they're doing good though because yeah, because from the dark days, the dark ages of Forty K don't well, they actually went really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: back and doing things because for a long time in the beginning, they were very up the day.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't change things that fast, but they were intervals in the community.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they went away under the top of Mount Olympus.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you got a codex, let me say that because that's going to confuse everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thirty years games thirty years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, and thirty in the thirty years, GW would just do this thing where they would basically they weren't a big company.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were a small company with a small player base.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there wasn't much of a need.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a normal.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a basics of how things have with capitalism all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: They made a game, people played the game, and they kind of like, oh well, just we'll release, you know, one codex every few years and that'll give them all the rules they need.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then all of a sudden that game becomes played by millions of people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the demands and the attention gets a lot faster and a lot bigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what happens is at its carous state, GW's done a great job, where every within three months, sometimes even less, they're putting their taken corrective action.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and they're involved, they hear the player, they feed back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they make changes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And whether you like them or not, they're trying to better.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're doing their best for a long period of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: They weren't doing this because they're, what, fifth, sixth, even seventh edition.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say one, one through seven.
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of those actually, the very very beginning it was a little different just because of the fact that they had no one played.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you'll, but you also had the outwriter team and all that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did that and also that they're more.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least you felt like somebody and they're more can use white dwarf at that point to kind of the fix.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just put out something and white dwarf.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we got the fifth six and South edition and you went, hey, this codex is broken.
[SPEAKER_00]: They went.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you'll get another one and a couple years and a few years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, what ended up, what ended up happening, unfortunately, during this during that era, which is, I view as a dark era, can't really, I didn't play during.
[SPEAKER_01]: I played for, if I played was like, you know, maybe once a year, stop them, they're elected for punks during that era, because, well, obviously, it was just such a mess.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I actually, I did no tournaments for almost
[SPEAKER_01]: probably fifteen years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that because of tournaments would then have to add their own rules and rule clarifications and it got you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shout out to Afal Jantz at the time they kept the tournament scene running.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did, they saved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there was also weird stuff like they banned forage world models which on the one hand I understand too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have a somewhat spent like four hundred dollars on something and got told you can never use it.
[SPEAKER_00]: through, but the problem was, is that they didn't have a living document at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have this grainy printout of some rules that look like they were written and crayon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It got ugly.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, like we said, this is a lot, everything worth the good news is everything we're talking about is the past.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something ancient past actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: He, ten years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[SPEAKER_01]: Ash ten years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I just want to point out, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the rule that allowed my nights to see anything?
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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so let's go down memory lane.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just want some of our listeners to understand that a lot, I know a good number of listeners based doesn't play the game or or placing them very casually.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are things we're going to talk about here that there are other listeners who are going to hear this and they're going to put their head in their hands remembering some horrible stuff they had to deal with or was done with or some horrible things that they did and they just have pure shame over it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Grad is one of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my laughter here is a place also comes from a damaged place.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some things here that were just there are hilarious.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, but again, pop into the discord, leave it or leave a comment on the cast and some of the stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you like this episode, we will do more of them, but I'm letting everyone decide.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's open with one of the ones that I just do not understand why it took six editions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pre-measuring.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, hello, every part about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Forty K has played with two things, a tape measure and dice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every unit in the game has a distance it can move.
[SPEAKER_01]: It can move that there's some variance there obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, everything has also has a range to everything it can shoot.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a number written down.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, how far you're going to shoot.
[SPEAKER_01]: For twenty five years of this game, I was not allowed to check the distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: until after you declare until after I declared I should.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, you know what, I'm sorry, they said, I'm going to tell you about how I'll abuse everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was horrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so ready, I'm going to move my unit and it moves six inches and I'm going to shoot in a minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I take out my tape measure and I put about thirty inches of tape out and then I move my things six inches and I see how far John is away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We would shoot like crazy on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but the idea here was, it was, the concept was funny where I was, I moved my unit six inches and then I would, I was having a shoot that thing and then we would discover together if, if I was in range of that thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea I think was that well in combat, you really don't have a chance to check ranges.
[SPEAKER_01]: Except in the lore, that ability is written into the Space Marine helmet.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's part of the war.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's got this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's thirty-eight thousand years in the future, despite the stupid horses we've advanced.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this thing was, uh, God, I hated this rule so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to breath weight, everyone cheated or got cheated by it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no, there was no, no one was this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the problem is you were playing within the rules because you had to measure to see how far you could go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you put the trick up, putting your tape right out.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other one I would see is, but people would call you out of that, so you couldn't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I would see people who would lean on the board and they'd put their forearm down.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they knew how long their forearm was.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd see guys just kind of like, like, people would do all this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's start with their hands.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with, let's start it with to be fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: First one of the day, it was super easy if you knew math though, because you knew that certain things on the board were at certain distances.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so you just made the triangle and just, do you know exactly where you're going?
[SPEAKER_00]: How far you were?
[SPEAKER_01]: My favorite part, though, was actually that when this rule went away, and I had to look this up, because I had a memory of it, but again, I wasn't playing in sixth edition when this rule went away.
[SPEAKER_01]: But forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the start of sixth edition, they changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And GW said, look, they realized it was actually because a different game system did this first, because we were machine-holded at first, and they said, we're gonna allow you to pre-measure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people lost their minds over that, not in a good way.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be so long.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to ruin the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to ruin the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: The game is going to be like, I look this up online and found the old posts from people saying like, this is, this is a skill that taking out of the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a skill.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to make the game win a skill because pre-bessering makes you precise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the product like more people saying it's going to make the game take longer.
[SPEAKER_01]: It actually made the game take so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because all the arguing and all the game is been shipped went away.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really quick and easy to play the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think it was really talking about guess my friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, but that's the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go into the next one.
[SPEAKER_01]: The loss of guess weapons, not golf weapons, guess as in I'm guessing in a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: First off, you had artillery basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you would guess how far you're shooting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just shoot out of line of sight.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this was the whole idea behind a guess weapon was someone firing a mortar, someone firing them with that thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't actually know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of you got fired quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: They might not know the distance.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the idea was, but GW accounted for that with was they called these things guess weapons where you had to guess the distance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not met.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as opposed to like not being allowed to measure, I'd actually guess how far we are apart.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you would see who paid attention using a squared plus B squared and you could see squared.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because you know, people that could laser sight it, it was pretty easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's about how the way guess weapons work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Guess weapons were awesome because what you would do is you would say, all right, I'm going to fire twenty seven inches.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you'd measure out twenty seven inches and put a marker down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pretty easy, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, now we're going to add in something else called scatter dice, which scatter dice are a really cool concept and basically it was a fist fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: The escarred ice is a six-sided die as an arrow on each side.
[SPEAKER_00]: Except for two hits.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, it's right where there were two hits.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two hits, four.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, four arrows and two hits.
[SPEAKER_01]: But with most of you then, you roll your scatter dice and it gives you a direction and then you roll a D-six and it gives you a distance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you would move your template in that direction, that distance.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was thematic, it was fun and a lot of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when played on a casual setting, created some really hilarious interactions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, playing on a competitive setting, like certain people in this room, it was actually abusive and horrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it wasn't trying to abuse you.
[SPEAKER_00]: No one would ever agree what they ate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, because what someone do is instead of rolling the dice next to, and there's a lot of reasons why you... You didn't want to roll on people's models.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a real thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would guess it perfectly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say it's right on top of this model here.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I couldn't roll a dice in that area.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to roll a dice a foot away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or a lot more to the out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that dice is pointing in a direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I have to bring out a pro track there to figure out what direction was this was argument sent.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the real reason why these things had to go away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just so annoying because it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just like because a lot of times it would determine how the games going because also a lot of those artillery weapons were.
[SPEAKER_01]: Big damage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the problem is it's at these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: These, the, the one mistake that GW really had in my mind in this early era was that these ideas were fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea of of guess weapons, scatter dice is a fun concept.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them were talking about here are fun concepts, but because of the way the rules were written on some of his weapons, the effects were so catastrophic.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were game changing, which
[SPEAKER_01]: creates a impetus for argument.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why this paradise, but it would happen where you would roll a dice or you would guess your weapon perfectly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you and you nail it and then you'd roll a guess weapon and you'd roll a wheel direction and a sex and you would hit your own models or Brad is Brad said you could sit there and actually and cheat the system by saying well you're not let it target my character because he's protected and I would just oopsies miss something else and then drop in artillery shell on top of your captain and kill him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially when you got to walk templates over.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I forgot about the walk templates.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this was like this is and this was again like GW.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's gonna be the theme of this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: GW having a really fun idea that people like Brad ruined.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was more rules than it, but thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now let's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to one though that I really do miss.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why that's how you know it's a good rule.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because Brad, they're going to play and hate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Custom vehicles.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank God.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: So early Warhammer was written by a bunch of friends, which is basically messing around.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they spent time thinking up just fun, I have more ideas and turned them into tabletop rules.
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is that there's created kind of a bit of a mix of players who are playing the game between competitive and, you know, he went to wildly opposed inside GW rules to yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so GW inside the rules team every now and then would come up with something that was just so outlandish and stupid that everyone liked it except for the competitive player base, who then would either rebel against it or would try to use it to break the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why only abuse it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll talk in two thousand one, GW released.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was the first ever chapter approved out of the white doors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, so they had a bunch of, and a bunch of weird rules.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the white door for everybody is their monthly magazine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: My favorite part is in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: there was a rule set for creating your own vehicles.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could you could custom build and it's been used as kit bash, which is a term for like taking multiple, like, kits, some models or, you know, just making them a nice time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And allowing you to create a custom new model for yourself to use in your army.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was legal on a tournament.
[SPEAKER_01]: there were no real restrictions, just costs.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing that said, I think you couldn't do the job.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just, she, I chose on the top of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, guns.
[SPEAKER_01]: People converted over.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I distinctly remember seeing whatever the Thundercats vehicle was.
[SPEAKER_01]: That thing was converted over.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had power Rangers, Tanka trucks,
[SPEAKER_01]: You name it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go on, Mike.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave your son's turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's worth bananas.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll build your top tier in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You all set fuel using it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there were some things that were fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: People used like geodor and toilet paper rolls.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was all things.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was all really well painted.
[SPEAKER_01]: The summa stuff looked really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: That being said, the people who played it competitively, just tried to create the Dr. Strings Love Doomsday machine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had is anything under-costed or can I break the game?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of these weapons are meant to be one.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're supposed to have one big game.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're on your thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get to one of my favorites in a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's at a Brad's point.
[SPEAKER_01]: What you had was you just had a chart.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the chart had weapons on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It had size of unit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It had armor ratings, all those things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And whatever you chose, it added points.
[SPEAKER_01]: You also even had one that had enhancements on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I could pick a weapon and then I could make it a mega weapon, which would increase its strength and damage.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could make it here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I could make it rattling.
[SPEAKER_01]: My favorite one I saw of all of these was a nine D cannon tank.
[SPEAKER_01]: The D cannon is a weapon the old argues that shoots a hole in the material to the material.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you shot nine of these at something, you would effectively create a mini eye of terror.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, yes, that was one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there's no other thing in the game that had more than one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is someone made with nine.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other part was they had this really enjoyable scale.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the scale was small, normal, warm machine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Small had a definition of being, I think it was one of the size of a biker.
[SPEAKER_01]: Normal was about the size of a rhino.
[SPEAKER_00]: When all the way up to like almost a thing, I'm leaving it for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll leave it for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then War Machine had no cap.
[SPEAKER_01]: It actually called out in the article.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to glue four chimeras together to make a super chimera, you can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I should also note that this error in the game terrain wasn't very dense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't very dense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you put a model, the size of what was a G.I.
[SPEAKER_01]: Joe playing called whatever that he was, you put that on the board.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could drive around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is the golden age of the game of games.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the golden age of gaming.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you would have
[SPEAKER_01]: vehicles of fourteen armor, the highest value with it with some sort of like imperial field or Eldar or Elroy Shaves void shields and every gun that ever existed and they just planted the table.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was also back in the day when if you're elder you could do you could have your save yet your armor value.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had an invulnerable save, and then you had your ear, it wasn't Dodge.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was flickers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Displacementers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just had a four-up, fifty percent chance to just, to just deflect the shot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just didn't, it just didn't hit your period.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a golden era.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the org players at this time put some stuff out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: The cost of some stoppers were just bananas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Custom stoppers cost them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: The custom rigs, the custom trucks.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Orc players probably had the most fun with this rule.
[SPEAKER_01]: But can one of the players complain?
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, then we lost.
[SPEAKER_00]: Never the old stop rule.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the old stop rule was you could keep firing until you rolled doubles.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you would put all of the guns that did that, and then you would just keep firing infinitely until you got a doubles on the number of shots.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was banana.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a great era.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a great era.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we, we don't could have fun things anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do miss templates.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I don't miss indirect and dd die, but I like templates quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a statement only made by competitive players.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's nice because it punished you for clumping up all your stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it made everyone yell at each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's why I walked away from the game for a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: Flamer templates were fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: every template sucked and I'll explain why.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so you're here while we are, we're arguing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So from until of two thousand to sixteen, a lot of the weapons the game carried, what was called a template.
[SPEAKER_01]: These were just shapes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you would hold the shape out from your unit and then shape like a flamethrower had a conical shape and anything that fell under that cone was considered hit by the flamethrower.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had circle ones for missiles and mortars and all these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were a terrible idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: They made the game worse because it was a non-stop argument.
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, what angle of the model do I take the template out of for flavor?
[SPEAKER_00]: The best one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if it worked well for me, I would be holding the template out of the guy holding the flame throw is elbow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember when they had torrent flamers?
[SPEAKER_00]: Were you a place that I didn't remember you wanted?
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Templates, the concept of a template makes a lot of sense in a war gaming world ideas.
[SPEAKER_01]: I fired a missile at you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has a three inch explosion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, put this template down everything within three inches.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do miss a little bit competitively and I understand that it was an argument on it, but I love the fact that if I had a bunch of template weapons in my army, you would have to spread out your deployment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It did much made, which made everyone's movement phase to take way longer than it should.
[SPEAKER_01]: The entire game was slower and more sweaty because the consequences were so extreme.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right now, I can move ten models in about two seconds.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what happened was before, if I did that, I would lose the game because someone would just go template template over.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people movement phases.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do believe when we got rid of templates.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in eighth edition, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if they went away, how much faster was the movement phase?
[SPEAKER_01]: You played from seventh right in eighth.
[SPEAKER_01]: How much faster was deployment and movement?
[SPEAKER_01]: The seventh eighth was so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been pulled away a punishment that was a stupid punishment in my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know people disagree with me and I understand why you feel that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is silly that someone could bunch a bunch of models up and then you shoot him with a piece of artillery and only hits one guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just I complain is from it is from me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get what you're saying on it because it's mechanically easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just makes more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like the the feel of the templates.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will give it the template templates make more sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: The issue is just what they did to the experience playing the game was so negative.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really glad they're gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't bring them up for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I brought them because what we have to talk to next, which is when GW decided to give random things a pocket
[SPEAKER_01]: Second edition.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So point grenades.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just doing virus grenades.
[SPEAKER_01]: So all of them have the same type of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the horse heresy episodes, we talked about virus bombs, where it converts all organic matter into methane that ignites it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But these were like orbital bombs.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what you know, flight of the Eisenstein, all this stuff is around this.
[SPEAKER_01]: What if instead of that, it was like the holy hang grenade of Antioch and could be thrown at Napano.
[SPEAKER_01]: And right now, there are veteran players who are shifting uncomfortably in their chairs as they remember, they know where I'm going with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I still, this thing was, okay, it was not a, this is again, GW having a really fun, more idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the idea is, I'm gonna, you know, if you really have to kill something, why wouldn't you throw,
[SPEAKER_01]: the virus bomb at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would then kill that thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could even spread to the other things around it and could kill everything around it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What a really good weapon.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a match to GW lore.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the way that this function was you rolled it, you put a template down and you rolled a D six for anything that was under that template.
[SPEAKER_01]: Any time you roll a three or higher, that model dies, which is annoying, but cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very powerful grenade.
[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't the end of it though.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was spread.
[SPEAKER_01]: What then happens is for every model that died, you would roll another D-six.
[SPEAKER_01]: And whatever that distance was, you'd put another template down.
[SPEAKER_01]: And anything that was in that new template had to roll a D-Sex and every four up this time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of a three out of six, which is a, sixty six percent chance on a fifty, fifty chance, this thing would then die.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you should die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm not, it gets worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it died, you do, you continue the process.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you put what we're talking with templates, a large number of units near each other and one of these grenades where they hit it, you could lose your entire army.
[SPEAKER_01]: The good news about that is that very few models in the game had virus grenades.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a very short distance.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what was I think grades like the answer is super short.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like three or six inches.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was nothing like whatever through the grenade usually died as a result of this, which again, lower specific, awesome, totally supported.
[SPEAKER_01]: Except for one small little problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, this is fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second edition, GW thought of this really great way to kind of spice the game up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way this spice the game up is that you had these cards that you would have with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And before the game you draw, it's just one card each, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, unless you were a couple characters, you're going to have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd have a card each.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these cards, they were random.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they had little tricks that would kind of affect the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the ones I like was it was called, look out, sir.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where if one of your characters died, you'd play the card and a model near your card, near your character would jump in front of the attack and sacrifice themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: or reinforcements, which allowed you to bring a dead unit back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Stupid card.
[SPEAKER_01]: That one caused some problems, because it just said unit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I could bring back at the time you had things like the space move Terminator squad, which was the entirety of your army.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had one unit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you had one unit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you played that card and it comes back.
[SPEAKER_01]: It came right back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was pretty game-breaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bombing run where you just dropped the template on the end of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Roll per armor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, per unit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, talk about grenades, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: the void grenade, because it stayed on the table.
[SPEAKER_01]: I heard the voice of Gary, you threw it over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it killed.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it hit anything under the template was just dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if anything moved through that template, it also died.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the in the grenade, it would be a small template.
[SPEAKER_00]: And every turn, it would move D six in a random direction.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it never went away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you had to run away from this thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a war.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you not about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we have this anymore?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a wonder.
[SPEAKER_01]: That should be one of the mission cards in ten.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it had to flee so many times.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was continued on.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was in third and fourth of the test.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my point is that we should bring that back in tenth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, we'll find it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That can be one of the mission rules.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone, oopsie, someone dropped the void grenade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's bring this thing back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know how bad that would, like people would flame up.
[SPEAKER_00]: If in the middle of a major finals, it's just determined because of void grenade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just continued.
[SPEAKER_01]: What you just described me is how I think every major submitters should end.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the last mission void grenade mission?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just keep steving into the same guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Damn it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, the term and has the tournament would provide its own scatter dice for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just, oh, if we put it, that was pretty, if you do realize I'm gonna do that now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just letting you know, like Brad and I were discussing lunch, like maybe you should put on an event.
[SPEAKER_01]: Congratulations.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm bringing back the void, but let's get to the real problem here.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the cards that aforementioned card was called virus outbreak and the virus outbreak allowed you to drop a virus grenade.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're the word, including on turn one before your opponent had moved.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the deployment zone, we have all kinds of different deployments.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there were three then.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the main, you just played twelve inches up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So at the time, Orcs were bringing a hundred and fifty models.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're all, if you were an orcs player and your opponent pulled virus outbreak, you lost the game in the first turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless you brought loaded dice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the only way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and you brought in weirdly you brought loaded dice that rolled ones and two.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, you have to use my dice.
[SPEAKER_00]: You exactly have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I have these.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're just, I know they look like D for us, but they're not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, entire armies were wiped out.
[SPEAKER_01]: People, I mean, there's numerous of those losing seventy plus percent of their army before they started the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was such a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: And remember, this is also a time before, like, we had websites.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the early, this is the early zeros.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have websites, but people aren't really going to them very much.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no social media.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, what a horrible time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, so GW does the only thing they could think to do, which was in the white dwarf.
[SPEAKER_01]: They told everyone to go,
[SPEAKER_01]: find their buyers out break cards to tear them off.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a real thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not making this idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: They told him and go find your buyers out break cards.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not paraphrasing them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They actually said tear the card into little pieces and throw in the garbage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Coach EW.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to another one that's got some interesting history to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instant Death.
[SPEAKER_00]: Saga of the Bear.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instant Death probably should come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was actually a pretty cool rule, but I get why it's gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very thin.
[SPEAKER_00]: There would be so much more damaging now because people didn't have very many wounds back in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that, you know, if characters are ten wounds, but it's still that the idea of instant death was if a volcano lands from a night, which didn't exist back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm interestingly enough, a shot of guardsmen.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: The guardman, the guardman, no, instant death wasn't no save instant death was if the if the damage from the weapon was double your toughness, if the strength of the weapon was double your toughness, then if you failed your save, you're dying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it failure to save orbit, orbit successfully wounded?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, there was two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there was weapons that don't have the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's the rule itself was if you're, if the garden was double your toughness, the strength of the weapon was double your toughness, it didn't matter if you had six wounds and the weapon did one damage, you're done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That also never happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where it did one, whether it's there was no strength, strength, twenty gone that they've won.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, most of the thing is, there wasn't that many multi damage weapons back in the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but the idea was to make up for the fact that you know, taking a last hand of the face as a guard's man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was terrifying because a lot of your characters in the time had
[SPEAKER_00]: three, four wounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And most everything was doing one damage, but if you got hit by a power fist for saying, Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You would just die.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love this rule because it was thematic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, players picked up pretty quickly on I need to make sure I carry as many instant death weapons as possible, namely Melto's and power fist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they doubled it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you'd go into El Drango.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, heard you were T-three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't care how many wounds you got.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, punch him in the face, which to be fair, I can't say as well as you can.
[SPEAKER_01]: If a Terminator captain with a power fist were to punch in at a ten thousand year old L-Dar in the face.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, let's be on with the power fist hammer at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but still, I feel like it's okay to say I feel like the L-Dar would die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty much like it's just thematically.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, okay, yeah, this last canon shot a space marine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the space marine's dead guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you would bring a lot of things that could try to snipe out characters by double.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and this unfortunate, this is where it started to fell apart and they broke the game a little bit though, is that characters in this era weren't were more important than they are now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wildly.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were, they also weren't attached to, and the game used to have a term called hero hammer.
[SPEAKER_01]: People would try to play what was called hero hammer by bringing as many characters as they possibly could because they were such incredible force multipliers.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were just, they were also like wildly more damaging.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so the issue is that with this instant death, you could take them out pretty.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go with easily.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they started giving what's called eternal warrior.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which they had different things that again, saga of the bear, which was a space for.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they had different characters that you could give them enhancement.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's said that you just didn't die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which you never from a rules writing standpoint, you never want to start doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you say, hey, here's a rule, here's an ability, but it doesn't affect these things and these things, it tends to fall apart.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: The rule that she died off because the number one reason you'd use it, you could never use it, or more annoyingly, some armies had access to a way to block instant death and other armies did not, which became kind of an unfair situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the fact that they gave away so many things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was, it's, it was the salamander, real.
[SPEAKER_00]: We weren't even bothered.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're armor.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you couldn't get double penetration on them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you would be because their armor was so, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, the lore there was correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, eventually the rule died off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of things that died off, I'm going to tell you guys a fun story about summoning demons.
[SPEAKER_01]: tell you who's the best at it, if you're the so in early seventh edition, which is where this was the funniest moment, they changed the way the psychic worked a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you've always been able to, something demons have been part of the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think from almost every edition, you have to, there's different mechanics they'd used over the era.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in seventh edition, which is considered the most balanced edition of the game,
[SPEAKER_01]: There's three years of celebration that just came to a crashing halt in two thousand seventeen with the horrible release of eighth edition taking taking away everyone's good times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually kidding.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like for those who don't know, the numerous players quit the game in seven edition and a lot of them didn't return down here at the end of eight edition because they were so much a fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and seven edition had some interesting problems and it and to be fair, they're all
[SPEAKER_01]: They were all more driven ideas that were ruined by rules has written because of the way things are.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would not give GW that much grief about this because none of this was done with malintention except for maybe the older codex.
[SPEAKER_01]: That one.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so this change of psychic powers meant that you would
[SPEAKER_01]: You roll dice when you do a psychic power and determine and the dice determine what you can pull off.
[SPEAKER_01]: The harder the thing to pull off, the higher the dice will you have to have because if I have to roll over a four, for example, on two dice, it's like a seventy percent chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they're all over a ten.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a four percent chance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a lot to use multiple times.
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing is that they went to, you know, you needed X amount of successes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I don't want to get too far into the complication of it, but effectively to summon to do any psychic power, the more complicated the power, the more dicey, the more dicey to have in the higher the numbers you have to generate.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what this, and this idea behind us is correct, only the most powerful psychors can pull off the most challenging feats.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of these feats you could pull off was summoning a demon to fight the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything else?
[SPEAKER_00]: Also talk about summoning back then.
[SPEAKER_00]: So summoning back in this edition, right now you can summon things.
[SPEAKER_01]: but you have to already have paid for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there was a little bit of a flaw there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: In summoning, you summoned extra stuff to the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It did not cost points.
[SPEAKER_00]: People would show up in their summoning armies, which we're going into with an entire tray of extra shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have an other army.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you play a game of two thousand points against two thousand points.
[SPEAKER_01]: They would have two thousand points plus a thousand off board in case they're nice ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the idea of somebody's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: The concept was, you know, I'm a chaos sorcerer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm moving up the board.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm being, I'm successfully defeating, you know, the the Imperium.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to summon in some pink horror, some plague bears.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe even a bloodthirsty to join me in my, in my battle.
[SPEAKER_01]: This makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to make it forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't spider to make it work.
[SPEAKER_01]: What GW did was, you know, the bigger the summoning you had to do, the higher the dice roll.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that being said, there was a little bit of an oopsie done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just a tiny oopsie, in which when they did the oopsie,
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't specify who could or could not summon the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there was a couple charts.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could take spells from different things and everybody had access to them to all of the charts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And initially, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in GW, well, no one's going to take summoning because if you weren't a demon summoner, you could take damage.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could kill yourself from summoning because you did that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you went into elder.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is where this gets to be fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: The most, the more gifted the siker, the easier it was to pull off a sun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And who are the two most gifted sikers in the galaxy?
[SPEAKER_01]: Elder.
[SPEAKER_01]: Elder.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the great night.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as a result, you would routinely see on the board, held our far sears, summoning demons of full and many keepers, just keepers of secrets, and then you also saw gray nights fighting side by side with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just say, if you don't believe me, go online.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find the people raging about this on DACA DACA.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anytime that game streamed, it was just bananas.
[SPEAKER_01]: People were furious about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to their credit, GW rules writers did address this later.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they didn't even realize it until they went to some of the bigger tournaments.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I look at some of the GW rules writers are some of the biggest fluff bunnies out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So imagine like you wrote these rules, you're super proud of yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a new addition.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go to, you know, warhammer faster, whatever you're going to.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you walk past the board and you see a great night player rolling dice and then adding chaos demons to their army.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just going, oh my god, what have I done?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you into the next table and the elder person is summoning Hordes of Slenex.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I genuinely believe there were lots of people screaming into hotel pillows, like I thought they were the night of like, what have I done?
[SPEAKER_01]: It could get fixed, but solid oopsie.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that wasn't our only seventh edition oopsie.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the great gems.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't even want to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you did this.
[SPEAKER_01]: How much?
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone did this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the worst rule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like all of your defenses are the Lemming's Defense.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll be right back after a quick break for what appears to be to me no reason whatsoever gw added a spell of invisibility to the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go with what happened
[SPEAKER_00]: Seventh edition just started.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a couple weird things, but they really had fixed seven or six.
[SPEAKER_00]: They cleaned up a lot of stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then GW did put out some books that had the most amazing lore that I've ever read.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gathering Storm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's great plot.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a great story and in each one of the books there was wow we just jumped the shark and you thought they couldn't get any worse and they were like hold my beer I've got something else so what you had is invisibility the spell came from one of the broken psyche charts invisibility said if I cast this power you can only hit me on a six
[SPEAKER_01]: Here he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I want to call this out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't hit me in a six.
[SPEAKER_01]: With said, you can only perform a snapshot at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That church is stolen from Maxcom.
[SPEAKER_01]: For those of you who were also in talented notes, this is stolen from Maxcom.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the biggest thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the glare, the glare, the glare, the glare, that one, because a snapshot did not allow you to fire anything that was a template.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if somebody in visible is in front of me, and I had ten flavors.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could not flame right in front of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could not use a flame though or to hit the thing that's moving in front of me is invisible.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to use a pistol.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I couldn't even fire those weapons.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the combo was they also had another psychic chart with that that said.
[SPEAKER_00]: You get to re-roll your save.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and they also had guys that had it too upset.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can only be hit on sixes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a two-up save that I re-rolled.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I forgot to mention that I could bring a couple guys with me that were my hounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just walk you with the math here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I roll a D six.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have six chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have one in six chance to hit them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I then will, I get a normal chance to win, which is maybe maybe three out of four out of six chance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe if I were also tough to spot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then my opponent gets to roll and they'll have to roll is not a one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they do roll a one, they get to try again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if they fail that, then they can pass that off to a four point model.
[SPEAKER_00]: that came along with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're going to complain about seven of the dishes.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my favorite stories ever is I walk into an RTT and a guy's about to play is playing against the thunderwood star of the what we were just talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's trying to explain invisibility in their saves.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the guy pulls that his phone pops us with calculator and goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I need to shoot you four hundred and blah, blah, blah times to do one wound.
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, she's saying I'll just go get some food in the food in the beer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this sounds awful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just say when the rules of eighth edition were released and invisibility was no longer part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: People weren't upset.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, but now I went there with another like fun fluff idea that totally fell apart.
[SPEAKER_01]: So dangerous terrain.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love dangerous terrain.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really fun idea because in the grim dark future, there's only war, which means there's only rubble in the battlefield.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, apparently, razor wire rivers and lakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're in fibious vehicles.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was, that was what I played on the lava board.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm telling that story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So dangerous terrain, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Dangerous terrain on the board would be something that if you touched it or you went through it, you could either be immobilized if you were a vehicle or take damage.
[SPEAKER_00]: You would die.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, your models would either die infantry would just based on a, I can't even remember what the role was.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the one.
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dangerous terrain was whenever you had a cross-dangerine, you'd roll a dice.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you rolled anything but a one, sometimes had other piece of advice for us, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: If you anything but a one, you're fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you roll to one, you died.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the vehicles would take a hit on its rear armor, which is always your worst armor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you could possibly get blown up from that.
[SPEAKER_00]: GW had a
[SPEAKER_00]: a couple beautiful boards at the two thousand one in two thousand two grand tournament circuit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm old and I'm playing in all combat army and playing world leaders.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I played two tournaments in a row where I played five out of six of my games on lava boards, which were all dangerous terrain.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was running across the lava across the lava.
[SPEAKER_01]: The idea of the English, actually, it was kind of a nice way to spice the game up a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing was, is that it's like the Brad said, like vehicles, walkers, bikes, they wouldn't die on a one, but you know what would a Terminator.
[SPEAKER_01]: who's crossing, and I'm not joking, a piece that was dangerous terrain was razor wire.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a terminator in Sarah Mike armor would die stepping over razor wire.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, grab tanks, things that flew through the air would have to roll the dangerous terrain check, and they could get a mobilized.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've watched multiple people immobilized their army on turn one, trying to fly through forests and just going,
[SPEAKER_00]: and hitting and hitting the tree.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you would roll as soon as you hit it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if the forest was two inches ahead of you, and you rolled the one, you would stop at two inches.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you stayed there the rest of the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I forgot to mention that if you had a forest, you can only see in there out of two inches.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you were at the back of the forest, you couldn't see anything the rest of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the appointment is move around you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, OK, well, cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that you put another piece of terrain out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they'd be fair that these work at least the head terrain rules.
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't have me.
[SPEAKER_01]: How many years did we go with out terrain rules?
[SPEAKER_01]: Fifteen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a result of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there also was a role just real quick on amphibious because they you just have water on the board and people the guards specifically but would make their tanks the good things and amphibious which has allowed them to attack.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was also a two point upgrade.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, another kind of fun one.
[SPEAKER_00]: You in base to base.
[SPEAKER_01]: Base to base.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was just more funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, nothing wrong with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second edition, it's around second edition.
[SPEAKER_01]: So GW was trying to improve the melee element of the game by adding flavor.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, by modifiers and damage output, all these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they added what I call the Obi-Wan rule, which was, you know, I have the high ground Anakin.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if one unit is fighting you from an elevated position, you would go to bonus to hit, I think maybe damage than a while, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what the idea was, if I'm standing above you, I'm in a better spot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only issue with this was that the rule book clearly stated that you could only fight something if your bases were touching, which means it would actually be impossible for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was so bad though, because at the time, you could manipulate being completely immune to being in hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's call it what it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Eldar is one of my favorites here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Eldar vehicles are skimmer vehicles.
[SPEAKER_01]: So their base is smaller than the model itself, which means it was actually impossible to get into melee combat with an Eldar vehicle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, if you made terrain that had a second level, which was very few in far between the time, I could fly on top of it and you could never come up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can never fight me.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no, you could not punch up into the tank.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're impossible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can't possibly take it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because your toes are not touching me, you cannot punch me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I thought this stuff was awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, but let's start getting into some of the more fun ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is more, let's get into more modern era.
[SPEAKER_01]: Flying circuit.
[SPEAKER_01]: I loved flying.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, this is one where I have to be this, this, now this rule came out in the eighth edition, which is when I had, I thought I had returned back to the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I played in a very, very competitive area with people who like to play a high competitive area.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I say I played this, it was I played this at the like basic request of my opponents who are playing their own version of broken stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just we wanted to see what this stuff was.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Launch of one of the challenges GW has mentioned before as character preservation.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, characters we love our heroes and our stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: GW wants to deliver to us the ability to play our favorite characters in the board.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the idea was
[SPEAKER_01]: And they, what rules, so the characters we have are way better, which unrelated, this is why crusades awesome, because crusade lets you do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I say the campaigns, I highly recommend that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what happened was that these characters by over time have just become better and better and better, they're physically powerful, they're force multipliers,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're genuinely great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and these rules made sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you're an ultra-marine and Gilliman's next to you or Calgary's next to you, you should fight better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your prime mark or your chapter master is there.
[SPEAKER_01]: If L-Dreads, they are carnivotry or drag-o, a big war boss, whatever the towel have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever the towel has.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that very real thing they stole from Mexico.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever they are, they make your army light years better by being there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your opponent correctly wants to kill it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like now, now, now, now, now, now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So GW had to create a way to make it so they couldn't just
[SPEAKER_01]: make them die.
[SPEAKER_01]: And their choices were either make them impossibly tough, which they had done that in the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what Flying Circus was.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it took us didn't make them tough.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're not talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a different story.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm getting at is that in the past, they done stuff where they given like two, like two up to a roll.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was where like the character couldn't die and everyone hated that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the GW said, well, look,
[SPEAKER_01]: What we're going to do is we're going to play the game the way we think it would go, which is that you shouldn't be able to just kill a opposing character from across the board unless you're a sniper.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the rule they made up was look out, sir.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the idea was that everyone in the army will be endeavoring to keep its leader alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I would say it's probably easier to keep said leader alive if you didn't put them on a giant white horse and march around the battlefield in the middle of everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just saying, I want my lower solar on foot.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I want a new model.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want my lower solar on foot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll keep the exact same base size, but I want them on foot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It looks stupid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have a problem with horses.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the nicest is due to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: They made the charge of the light brigade.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it's on to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we should be over horses by now.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have them today.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why did they come back?
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, this idea of, you know, look out, sir, I love.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think GW was completely correct to make it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the rule made sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the rules has written had a bit of an issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the wording this people are saying the wording was, look out Sarah said, if a character was less than nine wounds, which is normal size.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you couldn't use a flying winged hive tyrant, for example.
[SPEAKER_01]: But normal character is not targetable.
[SPEAKER_01]: if it's within three inches of either a unit with three or more models in it, a monster or a vehicle, which makes sense because the troops, or a large thing, because by the way, monster, like a cow battle suit was a head monster keyword, they would obscure the commander from heart.
[SPEAKER_01]: They would make sure that they couldn't be seen because the commanders shouldn't be on giant white horse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where this thing fell apart a little bit, was that one of the words they used is vehicle, and one model in the game that had the vehicle keyword,
[SPEAKER_01]: was an airplane.
[SPEAKER_01]: So exactly as an airplane keeping Eldred.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, hey, dream the dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what this would look like is Eldred would be standing in the middle of a field.
[SPEAKER_01]: But hundreds of meters above him was an airplane moving at like mock three.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, but there's nobody else who chewed at the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were about to shoot this airplane was that this airplane would have skipped a few and no one could sell dread.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about flying circus.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about that now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: He should demonic flying circus was just demons flying.
[SPEAKER_00]: The flying key were the at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you were flying, you were only hit on sixes because you were considered to be up high.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also down low.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could decide because you could decide to land and you'll hit somebody.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you also couldn't be interacted with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I could put my model right in front of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm flying.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I hit you shooting on sixes and I'm not allowed to punch you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you would just fly Cairo's fate, weaver and German princes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wasn't allowed to shoot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was sorry, wasn't allowed to.
[SPEAKER_00]: punch you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can only get on sixes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and on your turn, you could decide to land and punch me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I didn't immediately kill you, I don't know if you guys could hear what smiling the whole thing to start.
[SPEAKER_01]: This thing was amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: This rule was awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only good thing about that was the grounding rule, or if you took you actually got hit and took a wound, you had to roll a six sided number one and two, you actually
[SPEAKER_00]: plummeted to the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this version of six airplanes wasn't always six airplanes, although it may have been.
[SPEAKER_01]: The demon prince thing was, that was generously worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, well, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the promise is also eighth edition flying circus was combined with Yonari.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is before.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, oh, yeah, this is eighth edition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm saying this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is also minus four airplanes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can make that you could make the airplanes minus four to hit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you just couldn't hit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because there was no guaranteed hit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was a very broken era.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was a broken era.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, but let's close out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think on this span multiple additions.
[SPEAKER_01]: It started in much fifth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It started in fifth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It got really bad in the seventh and eighth and then it's.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything is the worst it can be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ninth and tenth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually affected cleaned up in tenth, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: best intentions here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I'm not criticizing GW.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know exactly what they were doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is right on probably a fifth, sixth edition, but heavily in seventh edition, we're in the throes of the Abadon's, thirteenth black, we're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're trying to make the big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is when they have the accounting storm story line again, like I said, it was amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it effectively rallied together.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of these forces because chaos was showing up everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Chaos was rallied.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we had, so you had Abidon was bringing together all the forces of chaos to fight with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what you saw happening back was groups of necrons.
[SPEAKER_01]: How Eldar were appearing to assist humanity in their battle against chaos.
[SPEAKER_00]: And and also is same thing against here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because we have one side of the galaxy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was the way the lower was progressing and GW decided and I can think correctly in theory.
[SPEAKER_01]: that in theory, that in theory, that we should allow that to play on the board.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would kind of have a situation where the forces of chaos, because I'm talking about demons, chaos spacemines from different factions are going to fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on the other side, why should it just be a spacemine?
[SPEAKER_01]: If these are demons of slenash, why wouldn't the elder get involved?
[SPEAKER_01]: The tal might want to help out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Necrons or whatever, you know, is why they're doing whatever they're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but this was the idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a really cool and fun idea and everything went wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like everything went.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a trist was fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was this ended up with just so much anger and frustration.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's have some fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go through how GW tried to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, love the idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: What you had was in the lore, for example,
[SPEAKER_01]: Cadia, Cadia's being threatened by Abidon, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Abidon's pushing in and what happened was Eldar started showing up on there because they knew the danger of Cadia falling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Necrons started showing up because again, they knew that they knew the towel I think actually helped out as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two randomly certain places.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it wasn't the entire army wasn't a craft world showed up or an entire like two emeralds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they sent in?
[SPEAKER_00]: It would effectively be kill teams.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was also, it was, I mean, the storyline was also people acting individually.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was people saying that the elder were saying this isn't our fight, but certain elder were on the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, the idea was, it's like if you played Mass Effect three, you get that thing of all the races coming together to fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Time's you got to have the crew again?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they have sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that's exactly where they went with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a GW said was, well, look, we're not going to let two entire armies play together.
[SPEAKER_01]: But certain factions would happen, like maybe some tau battle suits who are a rogue faction, one to go help out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they'd send three rip tides over to help out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think you meant to say a ripped side formation.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I let you say, come on over with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, competitive players may be figured this one out pretty quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where this fellow part.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, the reason it fell apart was because when you write rules for a game like Warhammer, you and you either, the space means to be a pretty vanilla.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have minimal strength and minimal weakness.
[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of, they're meant to be, you know, like the water of it, versus the acid or the base, which can be so like tear in his and those ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every army is meant to have a strength and a weakness.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the Eldar are very fast, but they're not tough, custodes are very tough, but they're not fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Orcs are perfect in every way.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no, we'll not criticize them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But allowing players to pull from multiple factions, allow them to just create perfect armies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, this didn't go well.
[SPEAKER_00]: It also, the way that they let you pull them was they created a thing called formations, which would give, well, a super tight wait for instance, just one of the, you would take three rib tides.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's super nice to add to any army.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then because it was a formation, it would get
[SPEAKER_00]: All the tell re-rolls and all this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would get all the rules that they would get as if they were part of a full-tow army.
[SPEAKER_01]: But none of the better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bad, tall units.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so great.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had so many things that were just over the top.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't play.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was, was Tau'd are the worst.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Tau'd are combo.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's because the stars were still in and up being the the most.
[SPEAKER_00]: The space well thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's basically, any blah, blah, blah star.
[SPEAKER_00]: It basically anything that had either a two-up or a three-up removal.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no one who's listening remembers us, so names and factions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Seer Council, Eldar, Wolfstar, Space Wolf, and several other people, Centurion Star.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, there's just whatever the star.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you had re-rollable saves, they didn't have a codex in seven edition, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have great death watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: They eventually broke the star as my sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: They eventually put sisters a silence in the game at the very end of seven.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right, and that would show them that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if you got within twelve, it just wiped all the psychic powers.
[SPEAKER_00]: So all of a sudden you just went and you burped it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the end end of seventh, they were desperately trying to fix it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they just went, Merb, let's blow up the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then it was ended in the end of the edition.
[SPEAKER_01]: They announced that there would never be four nations ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone had wild joy for about a month.
[SPEAKER_01]: because then we got out of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, really good place.
[SPEAKER_01]: This time, GW, because I'll just pair it down.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the idea is that, well, let, you know, we're not going to let, you know, Eldar and Tau align anymore or space wolves and Eldar align anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: But where this kind of broke a little bit was from a narrative standpoint, a contingent of guard who encounters a superior force would call for support.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they call for support, that support would likely be space marines, or maybe space marines within Imperial Night.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, more Terrians engage in battle with expACE Marines, and he's in the verge of achieving the glory for Nergal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Zeanch would sense this and would send Magnus to get to gain equal glory.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you could easily have a situation where more Terrian and Magnus are together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those of you who played the game know exactly what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: This sucked and we're gonna skip the Inari because we're getting to them at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: To have their own thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is, is that you would have these combos that had, they made no sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, GW's viewpoint, their idea was good.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something that would happen narratively.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two problems were the first
[SPEAKER_01]: It was completely inaccessible for most of the armies in the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you played Orcs, there was no ally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Town any of the Xenos forces you have no option to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can take it like they didn't hear him in chaos.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my no-varmée was Bobby G, St.
[SPEAKER_00]: Celestine, mortar guards, two stormwriters like this hodgepodge of fifty different things that would never ever seem to table together.
[SPEAKER_01]: The LVO list was it like it was a twenty four twelve guardsman twenty four guardsman a commander an imperial night the biggest of the imperial life of what it was a lot of angels captains three players or captains a smash captains yeah or more tearing and magnets with a bunch of bloodletters those all those lists were just
[SPEAKER_01]: They were, it was nightmare zone.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this at GW fought this for three plus years, even coming in at night.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: They slowly, so what GW did, this is nice, is we still have allies to this day.
[SPEAKER_00]: What they have, everybody has what's called a keyword.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm a guardsman, so I have Imperium.
[SPEAKER_00]: Astramilitarum blah, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the regiment or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they had two broad of keywords in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you were imperium, you just had imperium.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could have sister's fighting with a night with a space marine with anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say, though, from a lower standpoint, they all made sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't balance the game like that with the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: The game was horrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was because of the fact that you can't balance the players will always break the game if you let them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that you can't balance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I can pay take these twenty seconds, twenty seven factions.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have all these attachments.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the blah, you can't figure out every single combination of units.
[SPEAKER_00]: randomly put together, because they'll figure out somebody will figure out a way to use whatever special rule.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it seems harmless on this, but that rule now applies to this other unit from another codex.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they finally broke down it Magnus and Morty used to drive people insane because Magnus would
[SPEAKER_01]: firemortarian at you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: He moved like thirty inches and hit on twos with explode.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had all kinds of tanks that get that were getting buffs from random people.
[SPEAKER_00]: They shouldn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they had lots of interactions.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just suck.
[SPEAKER_00]: So GW looked a really good job of putting when Gilliam and would get the re-rolls to anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: That he theory him in twelve inches.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was the entirety of the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was a gentleman surrounded by hellblasters and ancient.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would shoot you over a chart.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take the security and take and shoot it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, there were a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, we haven't even touched on.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of them touched on with things like putting a tank on top of a building.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, the stacking of up with the impulses for the repulsive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to know that by the favor about that, by the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, hey, remember when Brad broke the, they can't, GW looked at your game and went, oh, I forgot that photo is from your game.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was, yeah, good job.
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes hanging all over the building and the guys just went, no, no, you can't, you can't do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you won't any, we haven't covered, we're out of times where I have time to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to drop the six bits, it sits.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because I want to tell the one story of Pete.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the guys from GW was playing in a game at a depth of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was doing something and he was like, you can't do this, this mess.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the guy's like, yeah, you can't record the rules.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he just looked at him and goes, not by tomorrow, you won't be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just went upstairs and typed up an email and went, yeah, that rules gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's, there's a lot of stories actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: We should go that way of GW arriving at events.
[SPEAKER_01]: Super.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, super like happy with themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: Excited to see the players really see the game in action and then halfway through just like idiot it's that the Danny that the um is it Danny Glover what's the Danny over the Danny Glover mean
[SPEAKER_01]: Dammit, Dan Glovers, I'm too old for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's whatever his name is, but the meme is like, I was holding the pizza box as the whole room's on fire.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what, that was GW's impression of what they had made.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, every time the rules were written with pride and excitement and happiness, and they missed one keyword, and the whole thing came crashing down.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did just make me just sit here and go, this is America.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't cover both of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So with that, but let's call it at this point just so this was again just us kind of having some fun with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's endless stories like this from the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if people do like this episode, we're happy to do more of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something I want to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing a bunch of serious stuff for a little bit and I wanted to kind of giggle and talk about times gone by.
[SPEAKER_01]: Days of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll still end up doing pieces like this as part of the factions, but I'm happy to do focuses on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so I've been really working on my new radio voice.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think I'm going to use that next time.
[SPEAKER_00]: My real serious voice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to drop this down.
[SPEAKER_00]: No scenario, you could hold that telling me.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to use your radio voice in between eating the microphone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every time I get excited, I would instantly drop it.
[SPEAKER_01]: in the full grim dark so uh next week we were going to do one thing but then i started building a death watch army so uh next week we're doing death watch uh because so i've bred even i just i just found this out when you got it you guys learned that they've bred learned that live we were going to do nights i'm gonna push nights out a little bit sorry night players but i'm in the middle of a death watch army which means like the lore is just super in my head
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so pretty cool because it is the seal team six.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really death watcher and army that I just I love the concept.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the lore behind the and you know that actually like them now and now they both are now they brought them back to the table top.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So until then this has been John Barsati and Brad Jester.
[SPEAKER_01]: See you next week.