Dr. Stephen Peters

Speaker 1 (
00:00:08
):
You're listening to the journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick is a horseman, trainer, international clinician and author, whose mission is to help people achieve a deeper connection with their horses through his transformational training program.
Warwick (
00:00:33
):
Welcome back to the Journey On podcast today on your host Warwick Schiller and this week we are going to have a chat with Dr. Steve Peters. Uh, Steve was, a scientist he's recently retired, but, uh, in the horse community, he's probably more famous frees work on, um, educating people about how horses brains work. And I first became aware of Steve when a series of articles were published about an upcoming book that was going to be called evidence-based horsemanship. And the articles were written by both Steve and Martin black, and the articles was amazing. And then evidence-based horsemanship. The book came out and then evidence-based horsemanship. The DVD came out and both of those really shaped the way I looked at the reasons horses did things, and this is probably maybe eight or nine years ago. These came out since then, Steve's been a regular presenter at the best horse practices summit. He's also collaborated with, uh, Maddie butcher on horse head brain science and others' insights. So that's a book. And recently he worked with Mike Rashad and Jim Masterson of the masters method on a two day equine brain seminar, resulting in a DVD. That's called your horses brain. I use a manual. And so I, um, you know, I've chatted with Steve a few times in the past, and he's a fascinating, uh, individual. So I'm really looking forward to getting Steve on here and, uh, seeing He has to tell us, good morning state, how are you?
Stephen (
00:02:14
):
I'm fine. How are you?
Speaker 2 (
00:02:16
):
Wonderful. So, uh, let's, uh, let's jump right into what's going on with you these days, because for a long time, in case people don't know you a long time, you were a human neuroscientist, is that correct? Yes. And so as a human neuroscientist, what did you do mostly?
Stephen (
00:02:37
):
Well, basically my job day after day was to assess brain functioning and make diagnosis. My specialty was, was dementia. So I was constantly looking at brain scans. Um, my training is through neurology largely, and, and so I did residencies and post-doctoral at large hospitals that had neurology and neurosurgery departments, neural pathology departments. And so I was sort of a real specialist, uh, you know, a specialized specialist, but towards the end of my career, I, and by that, I mean, in the last 15 years I spent developing memory clinics. And so for American fork memory clinic in American fork, Utah at their hospital, I would see dementia patients. And then I was so overrun. There are so many patients with Lewy body dementia, Parkinson's dementia, Alzheimer's dementia, vascular dementia. People don't realize just the broad spectrum of dementias that fall under this umbrella. So I developed, um, Utah Valley clinic for brain health and saw a number of folks there.
Stephen (
00:03:56
):
So those two things are things that I'm really proud of looking at at brain functioning. And people might say, well, how does this relate to work? And the horses, uh, I've always had horses. And every time I talk to people about horses, I would get these, you know, crazy, uh, responses. And what I mean by that is they didn't have evidence behind them. You know, people say my horses are right, brain introverted, Sagittarius. I bought all these charts and I said, what the hell is this? You know, that you're, you know, um, so I begin to dissect out horse brains, and I only had seven horses at the time. So I knew that I needed a bigger sample in science. If you're going to do anything, you need large groups of subjects. So I teamed up with Martin black. Who's like a fifth generation cowboy who see thousands and thousands and thousands of horses.
Stephen (
00:04:56
):
And I need to his observations, his empirical data to match with my scientific data to sort of get a better handle on what happens with horses. And we did this all evidence-based. So it was based on science. And I, I'm gonna wrap, I'm going to wrap this up. I'm not going to ramble here forever, so you don't have to sweat that up, but, but basically in medicine we use evidence-based approaches. You just can't decide, well, let me try this and let me throw these 10 tests in. You'd really have to follow up a protocol and be based on science. So that's what we did with, with horses. And we wrote evidence-based horsemanship to the book, but in talking to you, this what's so exciting is that in my job, I had evidence-based protocol and end working with horses. And when I go give lectures and do brain dissections and seminars, it's all, evidence-based come to me and say, yeah, but what, how do you know this?
Stephen (
00:06:01
):
Or what is this based on? And I can give them the literature. I can talk about this being peer reviewed, et cetera. And I can give them the answers, but in my retirement, the cool part is, is I've been able to come out of the box. There are things that it doesn't mean that I can't think about those things. It's just that in my professional spot, I have to come up across as the evidence-based guy and be able to support everything that I say. But that doesn't mean my brain stops thinking. So what I've been doing is taking all these diverse elements, variable, heart rate, monitors, FMR eyes, my own spiritual journeys. And at least things just play in my mind. I think I told you before, or worked at they've reached a critical mass where they all seem all these threads start to come to together. And so, uh, I was so excited when I heard that your podcast was called journey because that's really what I've been on. Since I've retired, I've given myself permission to just branch out. And so one caveat, this is not going to be completely evidence-based, but, you know, I really think I have a feel for where things are going in terms of human consciousness and with horses. So I think we can go from there.
Speaker 2 (
00:07:21
):
Wow. That was, uh, that was quite the spiel. Yeah. I was pretty excited to have you on here because we've spoke before and you know, you've got the science background, but then, you know, you've taken a deep dive into what we have decided to call the woo or the super world. One of my guests called it the super woo and, uh, yeah, I'm pretty much into super where these days. So, um, why don't we back up a little bit and talk a little bit about when you first got together with Martin black, because one of the, one of the big influences of me, uh, for me, was learning about your book. Evidence-based horsemanship. I think in the beginning, I started finding articles online by you, uh, with you and Martin together. And it was like, Oh, this is, this is what I've been looking for.
Speaker 2 (
00:08:14
):
This is, this is really cool. And I actually have to tell you when the book came out, I was a little disappointed in the book because I was thinking these guys have got so much information. This book is going to be like war and peace. This is going to be, this is going to be amazing. And there was this little skinny book and the book itself was great, but I had built up, uh, in my mind that you guys are gonna just vomit out everything, you know, and everything there is to know when this book comes out. And so, like I said, I'm thinking this is going to be like, warranties. This is going to be, you know, 700 pages of the most amazing. And it was this little skinny book. I'm like, well, I'm happy with that because it was, it still was amazing. But I, I think, you know, there's just so much more for you guys to put out. Have, have you got any plans for another,
Stephen (
00:09:07
):
The book or more of a book? Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that because we sat down and we had looked over a lot. I don't know, you know, thousands of images of horses and we talked about what they were doing and what was going on in their nervous system, most likely. And then I told Martin, you know, uh, everything we say, I'm going to have to go back and, and come up with citations. I'm going to have to show people all the, the, you know, scientific information from these peer reviewed journal articles that I built all this information on. So when we sat down and realized, and we talked to a publisher that, you know, we would have, you know, pages and pages of, of citations. And then, you know, if we wrote this huge tome, Martin said, you know, what, if I read a book, I look, I skim a book.
Stephen (
00:10:03
):
I look at the pictures that the pictures look interesting. I might read a couple of paragraphs paragraphs look, good enough. It might catch me enough that I'll read through the book, but you know, I'm not going to be reading a 500 page book. And Martin said, you know, I have cowboy franchise, rancher, friends. We have people that are, that are, you know, just out there. And if we're going to reach the biggest audience and they convinced me, you were going to reach the biggest audience, you know, it's a tough book anyway, you know, for people who didn't have necessarily have the science background, um, to deal with. And Martin said, ideally, I'd like somebody be able to even stick it in their saddlebag. And if they go off to the cow camp, they can pull that out and they can read it by the, and they certainly, aren't going to be able to take a huge scientific tone.
Stephen (
00:10:55
):
I have seen wonderful books, wonderful scientific books that are just like you describe. And they're in a library collecting dust, you know, because 20 people read it and loved it and said, this is fantastic. So the, you know, we, we toyed with that idea and we said, you know what, let's just take these bullets and put them together and try to make this, uh, digestible to the widest audience possible. Um, and there are people who tell me, even though the book is small, you know, I really had this aha moment. The light bulbs came on the sixth time. I read that darn book. So it may be that kind of book that, because it's small, you go back and you read and reread and you start to put your own pieces together and dot the I's and cross the T's.
Speaker 2 (
00:11:49
):
Yeah. I think that, I think that's really smart because you know, what I have found is you, you can't necessarily give people all the information, but planting a seed and letting it kind of sit there for a while and grow. And that book really planted a seed in me. Like it's like, Oh, this stuff makes so much sense. And it was so long ago, now that I read it, you know, it's probably was about 2011. It came out. Was that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it just, it, it kind of planted a seed that maybe sat around for quite a few years, uh, and then kind of grew from that. But yeah, it really, really, I was, yeah, it was one of those, one of those books that were the beginning of everything else sort of thing. So yeah, that's, that's a very good way of doing it is, is setting it up so that it's not too sciency or too much for people to take in. Yeah. How long after that, did you make the DVD
Stephen (
00:12:48
):
BD was made a few years after that and, uh, you know, that DVD was terrible to tell you the truth. I mean, you got some visuals there. The pictures did not necessarily always say what we wanted them to say. Um, we, we came up with, you know, I couldn't just use certain there's certain images. I couldn't use that. We had to buy from scientific journals, like den dry firing and, and making synapses ones that we liked. We had to go out in and purchase. Uh, and Martin and I, you know, we had one, I think we had a day to get it done. So we hooked up with Emily Kitching and we went into a barn and it was terrible cold in there. And we, we look like stiff mannequins, you know, and, uh, you know, there was almost no preface. Okay, let's go, boom.
Stephen (
00:13:41
):
And they start filming. And so if you were going to look for something, uh, the really gave you a big dose, I would go get the, uh, horse brain, the user's manual, the one that I did with Mark Rashford and Jim Masterson, uh, which is six hours in, it's basically just a seminar and this a brain dissection on there. And it's, it's much easier enough to follow because that's where I lead people. So the DVD, um, yeah, if you're individuals it's helpful, but, uh, I'll be honest. I was a little disappointed with what we came up with,
Speaker 2 (
00:14:17
):
You know, probably in hindsight you are, but I, I, I, when I watched the DVD, I, I loved it at the time. And like, this is really good stuff. And you know, of course there's more, there's more stories to tell, but I, yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was great at the time. And it was really good.
Stephen (
00:14:35
):
What's interesting is, is, and you can't say this without sounding blasphemous, because there are people like Tom Dorrance and Ray hunt that become almost godlike. And I feel I can talk to them about that a little bit since Tom Dorrance,
Speaker 4 (
00:14:52
):
Uh, spent a lot of time with Martin and Ray hunt was Martins. Uh father-in-law. So these, you know, he knows these these guys, and, but when we talked about it, you know, people now say this gentle feel and this way to be with horses. Now, when I go back and look, it's really pretty crude and pretty rough, you know, uh, and people might say, how can you say that? You know, that's last for me, it really isn't because science stands on the shoulder of the next guy and the next person comes along and takes that information. And it never would have happened. It's a ladder that kind of gets us to where we're going. And those guys laid a foundation and then science helped to smooth out and hone out some of that. But when I look back at that DVD, you know, there are things we are really rough about with horses and, and where I'm at now is, gosh, it'll sound pretty woo. But am I able to communicate with my horses, uh, almost without, um, any observable, um, movement or voice command from myself? Can I communicate on that level on, can my horse filter that out and understand my, my message? That's a long way from, you know, uh, getting after your horse and wearing spurs and then yanking them around, although that looked gentle or in relation to other things, I think we're getting to a point where it is going to be a little woo, not just with horse brains, but human consciousness as well.
Speaker 2 (
00:16:40
):
You know, I think the two are, I mean, I'm going down the same rabbit hole you, uh, uh, and I think the two are closely intertwined. I don't think you can start to, to, um, communicate with your horse with those imperceptible things, where they, at first doing some inner work. I really think in it to start with, you've got to get in your own body. And so many of us are stuck in our heads and we have no somatic experience experiencing going. We're not, we're not even in our own bodies. And I think you might correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the first step before you can start doing that really crazy stuff with horses is get in touch with yourself.
Speaker 4 (
00:17:28
):
You know, what's really cool is, uh, I just kinda stumbled onto some acting and some acting opportunities recently. So I said, well, I better learn a little bit about this. So I looked at the father of, of method acting Stanislavsky, and he basically said, you know, you can pan the mind
Stephen (
00:17:50
):
Things and you could try, you know, you can play a decent role in and fool some people, but unless you are consistent in your feelings, in your thoughts and in your movements, you'll never be convincing. So you need to drink a cup of coffee. Like your character would drink a cup of coffee, not pants of mine, something, those things have to be congruent. The feelings have to match the thoughts have to match the action. So your actions have to be purposeful, not just actions for action's sake. So I began to think about that, how that plays out with the horse. And I think many people have read the story about clever Hans, if you haven't, I'd recommend, you can look it up on online about just how perceptive horses are to body language, et cetera. But I think many people like you suggest work is that they're not really even aware of how they move of where their thoughts are, of where they are emotionally.
Stephen (
00:18:49
):
So they carry these, this intern grew in mass into their relationship with their horse. Uh, for example, you know, somebody may have initially at one point in time, been really nervous around their horse, but then they got more comfortable, but perhaps their movements are exactly as the same as they've always been, or you're with your horse, but you're thinking, wow, you know what? I gotta pay that bill. And yeah, no, one's got groceries and I've got to get that done later, but you're with your horse at the same time, your thoughts are out there. Or people talking really brave. You know, I've seen people in clinics now where Martin will say, please quit pulling on your horses face. I'm not, you know, unclamped your legs, no wonder your horse is all over the place. I'm not. And you look at the person and you know, the horses heads cranked around and they're, they're like a clothes pin clamped on their horse.
Stephen (
00:19:43
):
And they have no awareness that that's where they're at, just because they say they're, there doesn't mean that's where they are. So I try now to, to measure, you know, are my thoughts with my horse are my emotions within, you know, the right state, because my horses are gonna, uh, find me in that, that, that state. And I'm going to find them in that, that state, that's the only area where we can communicate, because if they're too sympathetic, then they're going to check out if I'm too sympathetic, they're going to feel that. And they're going to check out, uh, and not trust me if I'm underneath that, then I'm not providing enough energy. If they're under night that they're not an energetic enough. So we really have this neurochemical state that we both have to be in. So I would recommend people, meditate people. You know, if you get off about something, go throw some rocks in the pond for a, until you can get rid of that before you come in.
Stephen (
00:20:50
):
Because if you are these idiosyncrasies, I'm not using these in, uh, congruencies. I know your horse picks them up your horse for sure. Picks them up. And that's just a little bit where they say, you know what? I don't know if I'm safe, you know, there's a little squirt of epinephrin there that says, I don't quite trust this whole picture. And the more congruent you can be, I think the more comfortable and in the larger, the window of tolerance becomes for your horse around you. But I think people aren't there. They're not even thinking in that way.
Speaker 2 (
00:21:24
):
Yeah. I've been, um, talking about in congruence for awhile at clinics and stuff. And I, and I, and I, I don't know if you agree with this, but I've come to the conclusion, my conclusion, that it is an evolutionary, uh, behavior that horses can pick up on in congruent behavior. And I always say, you know, if you've ever watched national geographic and there's a herd of zebra eaten grass, and in the background, there's a line walking past, walking into the watering hole. The zebra didn't even pick their head up because the lion is physically and mentally both walking to the watering hole. But if the line walks past and, and physically is PR is walking to the watering hole, but mentally is thinking, I'm going to pretend to walk into the watering hole, but actually I'm going to sneak up on one of these zebra here.
Speaker 2 (
00:22:11
):
The energy is completely different. And I think, I think they've evolved to be able to pick up on that in congruency, between what's going on inside and what's going on outside. And I don't know if that's exactly what it is, but I do know, I do agree with you that that horses can pick up on that. And I've got a friend of mine from New Zealand named Jane pike. She's an, a question mindset coach. And she says the whole fake it till you make it thing with horses is because they can tell you, no, you're better off telling them. I'm really scared. Like be like, uh, acknowledging your fee. If you're, if you're mentally afraid, physically show them that you're physically afraid. Don't try to show them that you've got these brave, you know, don't put on a false front because it, it makes them weed it out. They'd rather know you were scared than have you be in congruent. I think that kind of might set them off a bit more.
Stephen (
00:23:06
):
I couldn't agree more. And actually it's even worse if you end up fooling yourself, because then you have lost your self-awareness.
Speaker 2 (
00:23:16
):
I actually think a lot of people are actually fooling themselves about that stuff too. And you know, for me, these days doing groundwork, I've really changed how I do the, how I do the groundwork, but I really changed how I asked people to do groundwork too. And so I let's say, ask a host to just say, yield off around you. I've really slowed everything way down. And the first thing have people do is have a mental picture of they want what they want the horse to do. And I can't get it. I can't do it yet, but I know people who can get horses to move off mental pictures, but what it does for me, it makes me stop and think. And so I'd say have a mental picture. And I try to tell people to do it for like two or three seconds. Um, you know, like meant to pick two, three and do absolutely nothing else with your body.
Speaker 2 (
00:24:11
):
Then I'm going to pick up on that lead, right? Put a little feel on that lead rope out to the side, two, three, and then I'm going to look at that, the shoulder that I want to move over. So if I'm sending them off to my left, it'll be their left shoulder. And I'll look at that for two, three without actually changing any internal energy. Then, while I'm looking at that shoulder, I'm going to bring my internal energy up. Like I was sitting in a chair and I decided to get up, but I hadn't got up yet. Like you you're getting ready. And then if they don't move, I'll step half a step towards that shoulder, the two, three, and then if they don't go, then I'll gently start out with the flag. Like, like if the horse is at 12 o'clock, I'll start out at say three o'clock with the flag and I'll do that over and over and over.
Speaker 2 (
00:24:58
):
And after a while, you can get to where you can look at body parts and put what I call like the mum, look, you know, when you were doing something wrong and your mum look at you and you can feel that, um, and I can get horses bodies to move by looking at it. And this is in the past was never, never the case. And I've, I've got people to do at clinics too, and it's just slowing everything down and making sure you are completely aware of what your body's doing, what your body's feeling, what your mind's thinking. And I really think that it's the, it's the Holy grail of horsemanship. Really?
Stephen (
00:25:31
):
Yeah. I have gotten away as well from what my horse can do to what my horse can say to me and what I can say to my, my horse, you know? Yeah. You know, you can open Gates a little better and you can side pass a little better and you can do flying lead changes a little better and all of that. But you know that, I don't want to say it that way, but it almost bores me because, you know, it's, uh, those are tasks and, uh, yeah, I'd love to have my horse be better at those things. And we work at those, but when I walk out there in the pasture and we communicate and you know, here's what fascinates me. And here's where, uh, I have a lot of fun. I would recommend the book talent code to anyone. Uh, if you want to see how to myelinate, uh, which is a fatty insulating wrapper around neurons that allow us information to travel very quickly and efficiently.
Stephen (
00:26:38
):
So based on how you move and what you do and what you learn, you will stimulate myelination in certain areas of the brain. In other words, you can build a brain that's good at certain things. And so if that's the case, then one, you can, you can start to do that with your horse and you can do it with yourself, uh, as well. Uh, I've even kind of gone, gone a little beyond that in that here's what we're going to get a little woo, woo. But science backs this up is this idea of, is consciousness in the, in the brain, or is consciousness really out there in the universe. And so our brain is simply a filter and, uh, it's a filter that can experience certain things within a certain range, but it's not where your consciousness really lies. And you might say, wow, this is sounds a little weird, but you know, physicist physicists will say, you know, look, there's the universe is vibrating out there, you know?
Stephen (
00:27:54
):
And, and when you start to look at certain horse behavior, if you've ever taken like go sometime, if you ever get the chance and just collect a hundred horses in, head them to where they're going to be fed in the morning, just gather them up. So to speak and your horseback watch, how many of them are all on the same lead, how they all, you know, ear will perk up. And then they'll, they'll add a Gallup. One will turn left and they'll all just follow that. You know, almost in step, I watched birds, flocks of birds in the air. They're all keeping the S a certain distance between themselves. And so you start to think there's some synchrony there that has to happen. Some awareness that's outside of themselves that allows them all to stay connected. And, and so that's even a bigger picture. Is this consciousness, is this singular just to us, or I think as you become more spiritual, it'll actually be backed by science that, that, no, we're just, uh, in addition to a whole vast range out there, and we are actually interconnected with everything.
Stephen (
00:29:09
):
And that's really what science and my thinking is getting me to is that if we're interconnected with this, all I have to do is understand the filter. My horses have a different filter than I have. They have a different brain. If I want the brain to be different than I have to work with them so that they can improve those areas of the brain, but their reactions, their emotional reactions and their understanding. You know, it always drives me nuts. We're not clear in our understanding because we have a human understanding. We want the horses brain to act like a human brain to understand that. We're not clear. So what do we do? You punish the horse for not understanding our human message. And if you're not clear right away, suspicion goes up. If, if anybody was going to learn anything about horses, I would tell them this, the horse's brain is designed that everything is a predatory threat until proven otherwise.
Stephen (
00:30:08
):
So you, your job actually really is to prove to the horse, that all these things are not predatory threats. Once they are able to comprehend that, then you kind of open their window a little more and you can really get farther, but no, it's not, you know, do I have a carrot stick? Do I have this? Should my horse move 10 times over there? It really is. This horse's brain is designed that everything is a predatory threat until proven otherwise. And so my job really is to prove to them know it's safe. And they're going to ask you, am I safe? Is this a predatory threat? And you have to watch them to make sure you're, you're understanding that you're right. They're asking that question. If you can answer it, allow them to reset their nervous system, man, all that work that people really don't want to even take the time to do.
Stephen (
00:31:01
):
Uh, once you get that in place, then your horse can do all kinds of things. I mean, I ask people, what are you really teaching your horse to do? I mean, then your horse know how to Gallop that didn't know how to try it, that didn't already know how to, to, to back up. Doesn't your horse really already know all these things. You just want to communicate in a way that's clear so that you can do it in harmony in synchrony. And I think that's built in, into the horse, this synchrony, uh, so that's what causes them to be able to run together and big sharp turns. And because they're in a synchronous pattern. And so we can actually tap into that, which is pretty cool, but, but yeah, you have to have really good self-awareness,
Speaker 2 (
00:31:50
):
You know, I have, um, for a few years now, I've been looking at things quite a bit differently, but here in the last year or so, I've become aware of something called polyvagal theory. And for me, that is the, that that explains everything about the new stuff I've been doing with horses. And it's about to get them to feel safe. It's familiar. It's about attunement and attunement is described by a fellow named Daniel Siegel, who was a UCA at a UCLA professor of psychiatry as the sense of being seen and being heard. And there's a lady I know from Canada, she's a trauma therapist who works with horses as well. My name Sarah schlocky, and she attunement is being seen, being heard, feeling felt, and getting gotten. And I have found that if you can communicate to those horses, that you notice the slightest little changes in their thoughts and let them know that you're aware of that the game completely changes. And I don't know about your thoughts on that, but I've found it to be just a game changer.
Stephen (
00:33:01
):
Absolutely. You know what I do, you know, people make their horses do things. I just started asking permission for everything. You know, I start to step into the right side, for example, and I noticed the horse just turns his head slightly to that side. So I stopped and I think, are you, are you doing that because you're uncomfortable or am I rushing this whole process? So I stepped back and I step again, and it's the horses head stay still. Then I might take another step. And what I find is my horses will let down after a while and I can do all kinds of things and I'll find horses that, you know, um, yeah, we're just afraid to even lay down. But after a while, when they know that you're hearing them, that you're asking that you're sensing what they're feeling, you know, at, at one point, you know, it's a different thing where horses learn to learn and they, they understand, wow, I understand what this guy's asking, but this is a step beyond, this is actually the horse communicating to us as a horse, uh, their comfort zone. And what we're doing is saying, I hear you, I appreciate it. And do you see that? I see that. I noticed that when you reached that point, wow. You know, your relationship with your horse changes.
Speaker 2 (
00:34:31
):
Yeah. That's what I'm, you know, I did a clinic just last weekend, Steve, and there was a, a little, uh, gray pony, you know, he's probably 13, three 14 hints there. And the lady said that he's had quite a bit of abuse in the past and he hates men. She told me that before the clinic started and, uh, when her group came in, she led the horse in the arena and I was outside the arena and she was standing on the other side of the arena with this pony. And I walked in the arena and about 50, 60 feet away from that horse, as I was walking towards them, he looked at me and he snorted and he turned his head to the side and I stopped. And I said, everybody watched this. I'm 60 feet away from the source, but I'm going to interact with this horse from this distance.
Speaker 2 (
00:35:15
):
And I stopped and I waited for him to relax. Then I moved a little bit closer. And when he either looked away or snorted or whatever, I stopped right there and waited for him to relax and eventually got all the way up to him without him running away. And he sniffed my hand and said hi or whatever. And then I walked away and I was helping someone else. And then 20 minutes later, I turned back and looked at him from about 50 feet away. And he prick his ears and looked at me and started walking towards me and led the lady. She's kind of got the lead rope, but he's pulling her towards me. And he walked straight across the arena, walked right up to me, put his nose right near my belly sort of thing. He went, Hey, how's it going? And this is a horse that supposedly hates men.
Speaker 2 (
00:36:01
):
And I only did it once. I only did that approach once and stopped every time he said, Ooh, I think that's a bit too close. And, uh, I caught it on film, this horse walking across your inner, straight towards me. This is perfect. And this is the horse that hates men, supposedly hates men. And, and I, I just find that it's, you know, it's like you said, it's, it's not training for me. It's beyond training because it doesn't fall under the parameters. If you're into the whole four quadrants, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment. It doesn't fall under that. It's not, it's not training. It's communicating. And it's it's for me, it's a game changer.
Stephen (
00:36:42
):
Yeah. And you know, I think one of the problems that when, when people look at training, they say, okay, you know, the client asked them, well, how long is this going to take? I'll pay you for a month and you better ride my horse every day for an hour. And that's what I'm paying for. And so trainers, invariably get linked to that clock. And that's, that's in, uh, in arbitrary clock. That's even though our wristwatch tells us, it's a certain time that, that really, I mean, you base your relationships on time. I'm going to have this girlfriend. So I'm going to spend 30 minutes at the coffee shop. And then I'm, we're going to chit chat for five minutes and we're going to, no, you don't really do that as a, as a relationship evolves. And so my friend West Taylor will often tell me his neighbors, look over the fence and say, what the hell is that anybody paying that guy for it, he just stands there staring at his horse.
Stephen (
00:37:43
):
And I think that's the big, the big tool that everybody has that. So underutilize is just waiting that pause. And they've taken variable heart rate monitors, a friend of mine, a neurologist, a virtual DVLC. And we started to look at horses when they stop and they lick and chew and their head comes down. And what we used to think is, wow, this parasympathetic change coming over the horse. But we found is that it was a while afterwards that actually we, we saw changes in the durable heart rate monitor to indicate that the horse was, was feeling what was reaching homeostasis. So licking and chewing was only the very first component. And there are, there actually were still stressed and in the sympathetic, although their body language would tell you their parasympathetic, you needed to allow even more time. And so Martin gets asked all the time, you know, you know, he'll have an engineering, some clinical sense.
Stephen (
00:38:48
):
Okay, how long do I wait? Is that like 1.5 minutes? Or should I wait like two minutes? Or, you know, your horse will tell you, you like, it's, it's a creature. It's not a machine. So you almost have to become good at, at reading where your horses is in our methods, our crude variable, heart rate, monitors, EEG, GS, et cetera. But they're all telling us similar things that, you know, that the horse has a very sensitive, nervous system. And if we are, are going to communicate, we have to almost do it at the horses pace, not our own pace.
Speaker 2 (
00:39:29
):
Yeah. You know, I, I, haven't been training outside horses for, uh, five years now. Uh, and friends of mine who, who do train horses, who have now gone down this rabbit hole that you and I both down sort of thing, they are struggling because you know, the, the, the people want this to happen now. And you've got it for 30 days and whatever. And they're really one good friend of mine who trains horses as just stopped training horses, because she cannot do with the horses, what she needs to do while people have a, have a time limit, a time limit on it. And, uh, yeah, I I'm, I'm so glad I'm not in the public horse training space at the moment. You know, what I do is, you know, my businesses is education, but it's helping people train their own horses. And it's amazing the feedback I've been getting from all sorts of different people about not only what happens to the horse when you wait, but what happens to you when you wait?
Speaker 2 (
00:40:37
):
Because most people, I think don't ever slow down. They never sit still. And when you do sit still, and maybe that you're, you know, because you're, maybe they said, I'm sitting still because we're excited. I've got to sit here and wait for whatever. But in that stillness, they find stuff that comes up in him that they didn't even know was there. So it's pretty amazing. I'll tell you what. I had a story the other day. I had a guy contact me and he lives in Oklahoma. And I think he's an old school horseman. And he gave me a little hint as to why as an old school horse made a bit, he messaged me and he goes, this, this stuff you're doing these days. Um, what I'm doing a lot with a horse loose is what I call creating connection through change in focus. So I might have a whole solution in the arena and they might be up the other end of the arena, just standing there and I'll walk in this end and I'll have a flag.
Speaker 2 (
00:41:29
):
And I will just take that flag out and just wave it around. Really curious, like, you know, like no pressure, but just move it around. And if that horse flicks in ear towards me, I'll stop and put it down. And I might communicate from two or 300 feet away that I'm aware of the little changes in focus, and there's a bit of a process to it. But anyway, this guy, he's an old school horseman. And he said, I've got this warm blood mayor in here to do some work, which has been here for 10 days. And she's been nothing but fence pacing, backwards and forth, uh, having separation anxiety from another horse. And she's barely, she'll pick up a bite, a hay and then go back to fence paste. And while she eats it, she never stands and eats. And he said, I was in a pen the other day and she was doing that.
Speaker 2 (
00:42:14
):
And I thought, well, I might try this stuff. He said, so I pulled the blindfold out of my pocket. So that tells you how old school? Most, many years he hasn't. He blindfolds them when he works with them. So this is not someone who's woo. He said, I pulled the blindfold on me pocket and just waved it around a bit. And when she flicked in ear towards me, I stopped and she kept pacing back and forth. And then I did it again. I needed a few times. And after about five minutes of me telling her that I noticed that little ear flick, she stopped pacing. And she went over to the pile of hay and started eating the hay. And I stood there for half an hour and she ate the hay for half an hour. And then she laid down. I have not seen this horse stand still for 10 days.
Speaker 2 (
00:42:53
):
And all I did was get her attention and let her know that I saw that, that, that change in focus. And he sent me a video of the whole thing and he's narrating the whole thing. And he's just flabbergasted. He and I, he called me and we talked about on the phone and I said, well, I got good news. And I got bad news. The good news is you saw it happen. The bad news is you can't go back. You cannot un-see. You cannot unsee that. You cannot, you can't block it out. You, you, you, you are going to be sorry to tell you you're going to be a different human being from now on, because you cannot unsee that change.
Stephen (
00:43:33
):
Yeah. When I tell people eating donuts is bad for your brains, they, uh, they always email me back and say, you ruined it for me for life.
Speaker 2 (
00:43:41
):
Well, unless they have a bit of cognitive dissonance and didn't, didn't hear that. But there's, I think there's, cause I've heard your story about, uh, brains and food and, you know, the, the Mediterranean diet and all that stuff. I've, I've, I've listened to you to do that. And I still have a bit of cognitive dissonance about it, but the first time I had a horse,
Stephen (
00:44:00
):
Well, if you're just uncomfortable about eating unhealthy that's, that's cool. At least I planted the seed.
Speaker 2 (
00:44:07
):
Yeah. Well, I don't eat, I don't eat healthy. Like I don't eat donuts and stuff like that. But, um, but, but, but the, the first time I had a horse that, that had this amazing, huge change at a clinic where I didn't do anything, except let them know. I saw their level of concern. I cannot see that. That was, that was the beginning of going away, deeper down that rabbit hole. Cause you just, you just, I dunno, you just can't unsee it.
Speaker 4 (
00:44:39
):
Yeah. You know, I'm not a trainer and I, I put that out there to everybody, you know? So don't call me and ask me how to train your horse necessarily. But I am a neuroscientist. I do know horse's brains really, really well. Um, so I started doing in doing things with my horses. I never really, um, defining it as the task. You know, when people say, well, I'm having trouble trailer loading my horse. Um, I never thought of it as trailer loading. I kind of thought, you know, as I got better at understanding my horses, well, the trailers there and that stimuli of some sort, but there's also a tarp out there and there's something else out there, but we're going to walk, take a little walk and up your head came up, you're concerned. This is where today's, training's going to start. You just told me that right here is where today's training is going to start.
Speaker 4 (
00:45:41
):
And it's not really training. You just really told me I'm concerned. And I want you to know I heard you. And so we'll back up and we'll walk along again. Maybe we get a little farther and then I noticed some tightness in it. And I said, okay, I know, I don't think you're comfortable with this. I heard you let's just go back and try this again. And, you know, eventually we would end up reaching the back of a trailer or something like that. And by the time it came to doing those tasks, the horse had learned to self-regulate and learn that I wasn't going to rush them. So they went sympathetic and it sort of opened this window where, when we finally got down to the task, you know, they let it would walk onto the trailer. You know, I wouldn't pull them on, you know, you walk on, you know, it's step on the cart because they could carry the learning. They could carry with them, this, this area of safety, you know, they could learn to self-regulate and learn that I wasn't gonna push them out of it. Um,
Speaker 2 (
00:46:48
):
Those are two separate things. I th I, I personally feel those are two separate things. One is, yeah. So one, I think one's building up trust in you like the whole, you letting them know you see things, but also while you're letting them know, you see things, when they start to go slightly sympathetic, you stop and let them reset and then take them away and bring it back. And yeah, I think they're two separate things,
Speaker 4 (
00:47:13
):
Right? Yeah. Yeah. They are. And I didn't mean to mix them up, but just to kind of give you an example and I've found amazingly, uh, when I was in Utah, I wanted to be around my horse. I've been away from, for about two years. So I found this, this rancher
Stephen (
00:47:30
):
And he had, you know, almost a hundred acres and I could just turn my horses out with other horses and let them be horses. And that was great. And catch him when I wanted to ride them. But he had, he had cattle as well. And so I talked to Mark Martin about, you know, evidence-based stockmanship. And so I knew that cattle weren't as reactive, but watching this guy with his cattle was a nightmare. You know, they're crashing into Gates. He he's screaming and yelling his wife after a while would just go in the house. The kids didn't want to be involved anymore. When they got trouble, they just get more people involved, guys would get on their ATV, bring over the neighbors. And now we've got 20 guys chasing calves up these Hills. I know there's injuries, all kinds of stuff. And so I thought, you know, these are, these are mammals there.
Stephen (
00:48:20
):
You know, if I understand their brain to some degree. So I started talking about to some people that used a more strict lowered stress method of handling cattle. And it was so interesting giving them time. I would just walk back and forth behind the cattle. And I noticed like one cow would lift its head. Okay. That's where they noticed me. Right. That's where they noticed me. I'm just gonna stand here and I'm gonna take one step. And then that cow would stand up. And then pretty soon a number of cows would stand up and I just walked back and forth. And pretty soon those cows were moving away from that low stress, but they were moving away. And I noticed that they'd like to move as a herd. And what I also noticed was that when other people were doing this with cattle, instead of making the herd a safe place, because they're herd animals, they made the hurt, the worst place you could be.
Stephen (
00:49:14
):
Cause they're screaming, yelling, Yahoo, chasing these cows, slammed them into the backs of other cows. Babies were getting mixed up, couldn't find their moms. So they went off balling. So the herd, wasn't a huge ball of stress. They finally lead them to another pastor and they're knocking down the Gates. They're, they're tasting back and forth, you know, fence, uh, pacing. So I just asked him, can I play with these cows and enough for a while, his son who was really open to this idea, we just get horseback and we'd wait. And I take, when did that first count? Notice us. Okay. Um, they're not reactive. They're not going to jump up, but let's just stay here a moment and see what happens. So one cow stands up and eventually they all stand up. And then I showed them, I wrote my horse down, opened the gate I showed, they all saw me open the gate. Then we walked back behind them and back and forth a little bit. Pretty soon. They're just flowing out that gate at a walk. They go into another pasture. We closed the gate, we go in there and I said, okay, they'd move somewhere. So we, the herd was a good thing. They were calm in the herd and now they're in a pasture, but they moved residents. Let's just hang around
Speaker 4 (
00:50:28
):
Over there. So we just hung out with them. And at first, some of them paced a little bit and then they mold around a little bit, but it didn't take any time at all until they all quieted down there eating, uh, they started to spread out from the herd in this new pasture. And then we left and he, you know, his dad was dumbfounded. How did you get those catalysts? They're not crashing the gate. They're not smashing back through because none of it was, uh, uh, a sympathetic arousal kind of thing. And they learned that that, that comfort zone was portable. You know? And I think I tried to do that with horses too, is that, yeah. Now you're learning that, that it's you, that self-regulating, it's not me. That's, that's, self-regulating you I'm opening a door and you can find it. And if you can drop yourself back down into that comfort zone, I'll back off, you try to find it.
Speaker 4 (
00:51:24
):
And so it's, it's like constantly letting the horse find where that comfort zone is. And then the horse realizes after awhile, well, heck we can walk through down the trail and I can carry this comfort zone with me, you know? And I think that's what Martin called those special forces horses that after a while they can get in situations where they're aware of everything around them. They are super aware of everything around them, but they're not reacting with defensively. They're not seeing it as a that they have to go to self preservation. That's different. I want to point this out. That's different than this desensitization idea where our horses, you get your horses flooded and then they hit, they block everything out and then they just stand there with a dead eye. And they're not aware of what's around them. And people might say, well, that looks pretty good, but we know their stress levels are up. We know that they lower their variable heart rate. We know that they're filled with cortisol and you can ride your horse like that. And they're kind of just dissociated out of it. But when they come out of it, look out, you know, um, and you haven't really gotten anywhere with your horse in that regard. So that's a difference, although it may look like a calm horse. I want to point that out that that desensitization idea is different than allowing your horse to really open up its window of tolerance.
Speaker 2 (
00:52:50
):
Yeah. I have found over the years that I've, you know, I used to do quite a bit of desensitizing and these days I probably, I don't, it's, it's more, it's more, uh, communicating how we're there, you know, there's there, there rising tension is, it's funny. You were talking about that. Um, the low stress stockmanship and it's, it's the same sort of thing we're doing with the horses, but I can get an interesting story for you. There was a little clinic in Australia last year, and there was a lady came to the clinic and her husband was with her and got chatting to him early the first morning in the clinic. And he was telling me they're from Western Queensland, which is, you know, big cattle country. And they had, I dunno, I don't know, 600,000 acres, maybe something like that big place. And we got talking about, and he's really into this low stress stockmanship, but he's also into holistic land management.
Speaker 2 (
00:53:47
):
And he was telling me about they, um, do you do what dowsing is? No. Uh, Ron may know, but I may not know that term, uh, muscle testing, like when you ask a question, like someone holds their arm out and you ask a question and you put pressure on it and it either gives way or it doesn't give way. Oh yeah. Okay. So what they do, and you can do it with like a crystal on a, on a chain or swing back and forth, different things like that. But what they do with their cattle is they ask them questions. And this was so weird for me because this guy is an Outback Australia guide. This is not some hippie dude. And, and whether it, they should put the bull in with the cows yet when they should, when the carves, everything they do is along those lines.
Speaker 2 (
00:54:42
):
And his wife was telling me they got one pasture there. That's about a hundred thousand acres. There's one big pasture. And it's got a Ridge line, runs down the middle of it. And it's, it's kind of steep. And so together cattle from the other side of that Ridge line is when you've got to bring them in as a bit of a pain. And, but, and this is a bit, this is about energy and this is when it gets really woo, woo. She said, you know, the cattle would never graze the other side of that Ridge line. And so they're basically losing 50,000 acres of grazing land because the kettle never went over there. And then she said, one day, I thought, you know what, every time I put cattle in that pasture mentally, I'm thinking, God, I hope these cows don't, aren't on the other side of that Hill when I come back together. And so she said, I started having a different mindset. And when I put the cattle in there, I would be thinking, I hope you guys graze the whole area. And she said, there were a lot harder together after that, because I'd have to ride over that big Hill and try to find them on the other side of it. And the only thing that changed was her mindset about where the cows were going to go when she put them in there, crazy stuff. Huh?
Speaker 4 (
00:55:55
):
Well, that's not. So far-fetched, uh, my girlfriend is really into all this kind of thing. And so, you know, she's constantly catching me saying, because I'll say, look, I don't want this to happen, or I don't want to do that because this is probably going to happen. And so she said, you know, why don't you just start talking in terms of what you want to happen instead of what you don't want to happen. And she said, you know, if you're from that mindset, then solutions seem to fall into place. And you know, it's, it's uncanny, but you know, I'd have to say that there's a lot to what she says.
Speaker 2 (
00:56:33
):
Oh, I totally, yeah. I totally agree with that. Have you ever you're into the science-y stuff you ever heard of Rupert Sheldrake yes. So he wrote, um, one of the books I've got of his is called the sense of being stared at, uh, but he's yeah. Now you took before about that, um, that consciousness being outside your body and he has this thing, he calls morphic resonance. Have you ever heard of morphic resonance? Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, the story I heard was they did an experiment on rats at a, at a university in maybe in Edinburgh or London, somewhere like that. And when they were teaching these rats to do these particular thing, and it would be something that no one would ever have taught a rat before it took the rats, all those rats, you know, let's say it was a hundred repetitions to get it right.
Speaker 2 (
00:57:28
):
But then so all the threats that they tried it with a hundred repetitions to get it right. But then they sent the instructions off to a university in Melbourne Australia and said, I want you to do it. And then they sent it, it, uh, the instructions to a university in the U S I want you to do it. And after the initial teaching of the rats, how to do it, the ones in London, every other rat in the world that learned how to do it, learned to do it in half the repetitions at the first ones learned to do it in the first lot, learned to do it in using the same protocols. And he S and that's this whole morphic resonance thing. He said that, that, that information was out there for the rats to pick up on. And that, that, one's probably pretty hard for people to get their head around, but I'm, I'm alive with that stuff.
Speaker 4 (
00:58:11
):
Yeah. Something occurs within our DNA. So, you know, science, this is, this is where this is the, the breaking point a little bit, you know, science can explain a lot and, but they, they're going to have to explain, explain it qualitatively. The problem is, is that a lot of this is, I mean, they're going to explain it quantitatively with mathematics. And, you know, a lot of this is, is more qualitative and it, but, you know, it's interesting, there are scientists, you know, Carl Young was a scientist. He was schooled in neurology, but, you know, he started to get these ideas about a collective unconscious, where w w there are things in our DNA that we all get planted in there. For example, why would, why would somebody who lives in the flat Plains have this inherent fear of Heights? Well, maybe that's a message that's been transmitted, you know, long ago in our, in our, and now that we, you know, we understand that we can do more with it.
Speaker 4 (
00:59:27
):
So as knowledge, if it's really out there in the universe resonating, then we can all tap into that. It's funny in, in neurology, there was a thing called a glove anesthesia. And what would happen is, uh, you know, it was mostly diagnosed in women and who had high anxiety in their hands would go numb. So they called the glove anesthesia, right? At one point in time, it got totally debunked, but it was real to these women. It was real, but once science sort of deep bunked it, then another kind of malady took over in glove. Anesthesia just disappeared. And, and even people who wouldn't have known about it, you know, in other areas stopped experiencing it
Speaker 2 (
01:00:21
):
Really,
Speaker 4 (
01:00:22
):
And people. Yeah. So people who wouldn't have that knowledge ordinarily and, you know, w to really kind of go, go out there as we talk about, there are patterns that, that absolutely resonate with us. And I think you and I talked about this before, you know, a number of women who live together, their menstrual cycles will start to get close to one another. They went and they started all these metronomes and they started them all at different rates of speed. So all these metronomes are going at different rates of speed, but over time, these metronomes all started to balance out and move on much more closely in unison with each other.
Speaker 2 (
01:01:08
):
I've heard the same thing with grandfather clocks. Like you put a room, a grandfather clocks, and they're all the pendulum swinging back and forth at different times. But if you leave them long enough, they will all sync up to where it's just one tick tock,
Speaker 4 (
01:01:22
):
Things in the universe are vibrating in resonating, right? And so if we're made of atoms and these atoms are resonating and things are vibrating, then these vibrations can be sensed. You know, who knows how far away and all these ideas that, you know, things change based on the observer. If you're not observing something, maybe something's a particle, but you're observing it. Now it's a wave and it can't be one or the other. It's the observer who actually influences. So, uh, that's pretty cool too, that, that we, we take out their incidences like ripples in a pond, things around us, you know, so we think we're not significant, but we really are. We are in this big soup, a big pond where everything we do resonates and bounces off of other things. And the more we can synchronize those, right, the greater our connection and communication is.
Speaker 4 (
01:02:29
):
So that's what they found on, on, on, you know, uh, on the level of electrons that the more you can synchronize these, the better the messages sent. We know this normally too, if you can get neurons firing together, they wire together, right? And so our communication is through coherence that w the greatest, and if you get tons of neurons firing together and can enlist other neurons, then you build a bigger brain, you build better memory. So it, it, it, it really is a pretty cool thing that, that out there, maybe all this information will all be interconnected. And it all depends on how much time we want to spend working on our filter on how we read things and how good we can get at tapping in. Um, so it's kind of crude to just think, uh, you know, I'm Joe Smith and I don't like this, and I don't like that. And I do things this way. And by God, the rest of the world's just going to have to put up with that, to live our life in this incoherence and never be aware of it. But the, but the beings around us are quite sensitive to it. And I found that, yeah, the, how I resonate helps my horses feel safer and helps me in my communication. And I can go out and kind of feel how they're resonating, just walking in the pasture.
Speaker 2 (
01:04:04
):
You know, I've had some, I've had a different experience at clinics in the last few years than I had in the past. People would have, you know, in the past, people would have a horse that they're having trouble with on the ground at St and running around or whatever. And I'd say, well, hand him here and I'll show you what to do. And I would do something with the horse, and then they'd be different. But the last few years I had what happened this last weekend, this lady's got this horse and it's kind of running in circles around her and pushing into her and whatever. And that's it just hand me the lead rope and I'll show you what to do. And she handed me the lead rope and the horse just completely changed. Relaxed, walked up, kind of sniffed me. They tend to sniff me or sniff me in the abdominal area, like the, the core of your body.
Speaker 2 (
01:04:46
):
But, um, and it's, and it's weird because I, it's not horse training that I did, you know, I it's, it's not, it's, it's not, uh, uh, knowledge about how to train a horse. That's different. It's my energy's different. And this has been, since I started meditating and doing all that sort of stuff, that there's something about me. That's different that these horses just act different and not all the time, but someone will hand me a, a horse. And I think it's part of the observer effect too, because I, no, when they hand me the horse, they don't look at the horse and think you're being a rotten mongrel, I'm going to fix something. I just, I just, I basically see them like, Hey, how's it going? You know, so I have a different energy about me, but, but you know, I'm observing the horse, but I'm not deserving the horse with a certain judgment. I have no judgment. It's just under seeing what I'm seeing and that the, um, yeah, the, the response from the horses has been just completely different. It's kind of blown me away. You know, I've done it at clinics. I've done it at horse expos where I have to say now, I don't know what just happened, but something just happened, you know,
Speaker 4 (
01:05:51
):
You know, and we have to keep doing this, uh, one because it's fascinating. And, and secondly, you know, people a while back would have said, what the hell is Einstein talking about that if you travel faster, time slows down, the clocks will slow down. If you travel faster. Now that's pretty much a fact. But you know, at one time that just seemed insane. I mean, people wanted to hang Darwin, right? We, we evolved from having ancestors that are apes in this whole evolution type of theory. So there are things that, that happen where even the scientists who are asking questions, uh, always, you know, how, when, when there's a paradigm shift and it was funny, Martin and I talked about this, there's, there's a, a point where everybody says, Oh, what you have to say is like, the world is, is, uh, the world is flat.
Speaker 4 (
01:06:54
):
Let's say. And so everybody believes that. And everybody says, yeah, you're just going to go off the edge of the earth. And then there are some that have sailed out there and sail beyond that and come back. And they said, Oh, that's crazy. And then they're seen as lunatics or heretics. And so people will come up with the idea initially, before a paradigm shift, they catch a lot of hell. You know, you don't know what the hell are you talking about? That guy, that guy got whacked out. She, you know, he's out there now. He must have dropped acid. Who knows why, but eventually as, as it starts to reach critical mass and there's more and more evidence to support that idea, then, then people will eventually say, Oh, I always knew that. Oh yeah, that's right. Of course. And it's funny because the same with me when Martin and I were doing this, I said, could you imagine one day, you know, people saying, well, I'm looking for my horse to get a dopamine fix here. I'm looking for, you know, the serotonin to, to take effect. This is due to the norepinephrine. That's got my horse jacked up and we were laughing, you know, because we didn't really imagine that people are gonna talk like that. And so we went to like some horse expo and the exhibitor had said something, well, you know, I think this is running through
Stephen (
01:08:16
):
A cerebellum. And I just, you know, there, I gotta wait for the dopamine to, to take effect here. And Martin, I looked at each other and said, ma'am, so we've kind of reached that point. And the, in the people who are out there on the edge, the first ones, they never get the credit. Somebody who comes along third, fourth, or shifts in line that, you know, kind of puts it out there. And everybody says, Oh yeah, this is amazing. And then people don't want to feel like they haven't known that information sort of go, yeah, I've known that all alone. So, you know, if you're on that wave, that that's part of the first bit, you know, science grows on ideas and then the evidence catches up with it. And I think that's where we're at. I think we're dealing with lots of stuff and we don't want to shut the door on this stuff. Cause it's fascinating. It's the ideas science will catch up with us. You know, I, I just think now that I'm thinking outside the box, that I'm amazed at how many of these threads all lead me in the same direction.
Speaker 2 (
01:09:22
):
Oh yeah. It's, it's, you know, um, excuse me, I've been reading a book and it's written by a guy who, uh, it's basically about shamanism, like, like, um, ancient wisdom, ancient healers. And they're saying that, and I've read a lot of stuff about this recently, too, that that modern psychology is kind of, and science is now proving what these, the practices that these ancient healers or native healers used to do is, is the same thing. Like the science is catching up with these, these ancient wisdoms. And it's really, really fascinating to, to read all this stuff.
Stephen (
01:10:06
):
You know, I was really interested when you told me, you know, people say, well, these guys, uh, are kind of blacked out. They set and they hum and they, they, uh, they meditate and they think, and, Oh, that's good for some people. I don't think it does anything. You know, some of your experiences, uh, when you were telling me you got hooked up to an EEG and you know, you were able to put yourself in a mental place, uh, by will, you know, by allowing yourself to get there. And, and you know, they're amazed and like, Hey, these are all fatal waves. You know, we, we have people that, you know, can't get out of beta and they stay there and here you are dropping into these deep, deep States, um, that science can now measure.
Speaker 2 (
01:11:00
):
Yeah. So, yeah. So that was, yeah, that was at Dave Asprey's Bulletproof labs in LA and yeah, so they hooked me up to an EEG and I, they had me meditate for half an hour and then they, they read my brainwaves and I had no idea if my meditation practice at the time was, was doing what it was supposed to do, because how can you tell? But, um, I was in, at the beginning, it was a little bit all over the place. And then for the last 25 minutes, I was on, I was in theta waves the whole time, which apparently is a decent place to get to in your meditation practice.
Speaker 4 (
01:11:34
):
Very healing too. Apparently.
Speaker 2 (
01:11:38
):
Yeah. So, so go ahead.
Speaker 4 (
01:11:41
):
No, I was just going to say, I think we, and, and having retired in, in I'm out in a remote Canyon, I'm looking out right now and I, you know, I can see a Hawk landing on a tree and, and you know, all this nature around me and there's not a sound, if it's not bird sound or something that is it's, it's, it's silent and my brain is can rest. And I think, we think so, you know, we keep thinking progress is, is the greatest thing on earth. And so, but I think what we've created as a whole nation, a whole world, that's this developed, uh, attention deficit. So we're so reactive to everything around us. Oh yeah. I'll give that my attention. Nope. I gotta do this. Oh, I got twenty-five emails here. I got to get some, uh, et cetera that we go around and we just react to everything around us and rich, stressful.
Speaker 4 (
01:12:41
):
Our lives are stressful, just putting out all these fires. So, you know, we're probably in some high beta range all the time in our brainwaves. And that's why, you know, meditation is so helpful, but what you find when you, when you stop all the outside stimuli, and we've done this with functional MRI where we just say, okay, let's just measure the brain and have no outside stimuli. And pretty soon the brain starts talking to itself. The brain starts connecting ideas to ideas, and then it gets deeper and it makes more, uh, affiliations with other areas in the brain. And so you thinking at a much deeper level about, about things, if there is no outside stimuli, but if you just knock on the outside of the FMR eye machine, it's enough of a distraction to send that person right back into these beta ranges. Not that we'd be measuring beta, but what I mean is, is that they'd be in this, uh, you know, really overactive brain area.
Speaker 4 (
01:13:50
):
So I think we've ha we can no longer think deeply about things as a, as a, as a world. We, we get so caught up with dealing with the world at a high level of anxiety and stress that, you know, in animals that are able to, to live like that. I'm looking my horses right now. And, you know, they're all sunbathing, right? You're sort of dozing off, uh, I, there, uh, in a much different place brainwave wise than, than we are, but I think there's a danger in it. We, we need your react to things so quick. And then we get a whole group of people to support what we want. And so we go with that on a snap of the fingers, but we're not really, can't make the good decisions about ourselves. And let me ramble on for one more second, because I have an example that comes to mind.
Speaker 4 (
01:14:46
):
They did this research where they took a group of scientists actually, and have them go down river where they are out of cell range. And they were going to go out into the wilderness. I think for a week, there was incredible panic once they got out of cell range. And it was only about the second or third night that someone said, did you hear that little beeping noise last night? And someone said, yeah, I think those are frogs. Really. And so it wasn't until the second or third night that they really started to notice the things around him. And some folks actually started to think, you know what? I don't know if I want my job anymore. You know, I, this is the first time I've been able to breathe and really think about what my priorities are and what is the true meaning? I mean, I got a great car and I got this and I got all these things, but they're all things.
Speaker 4 (
01:15:36
):
And when I die, they're all going to just be things that go somewhere. But is that what my life is about? The stack of thing. So I, I think that we are better with our horses. Ultimately, if we can pause, if we can get off the rollercoaster a while, if we can meditate, if we can put our brain somewhere else, before we even approach them, then we're able to communicate with a brain that's closer on the level to where we are. And if we're going out there and going, I have half an hour to get something done, and we've got to get these five tasks done. Uh, plus, you know, I got this bill I have to pay, you know, that's what feels good about, about my retirement is that, um, I don't know how the day's going to evolve. I don't know what I'm, I'm going to bump into. I don't know what I'm going to find on a hike. I, I, uh, just let it evolve. And I find that my thinking gets deeper ideas generate more, and I connect ideas better in this, this environment. My brain really appreciates this.
Speaker 2 (
01:16:50
):
You know, that book on shamanism that I've been reading, um, it talks, it gives you some exercises to do. And the first exercise to do is to go out and sit in nature. And I think the first part of the exercise is you sit in nature and just, maybe you focus on your, maybe you focus on your body sensation, kind of like a, like a meditation where you are aware of your body sensations, maybe aware of your breathing, that sort of thing. But then another part of it is you go out and sit in nature and you just observe and you just look, sit still and just observe stuff. And the third part of that exercise is you go out in nature and you sit and you just listen and you listen to all the sounds, the birds, you might hear it, feel a little here, a little lizard scaring in the ground, whatever you listen to that.
Speaker 2 (
01:17:41
):
But then at some point in time, you start to combine all three. So you go out and you sit in nature and they want you to take in about 40% of what's coming into you by what you see. So your observation and part of it by what you hear, but they want you to take in what you feel. So you are actually, uh, getting a sematic experience from nature. Like you can feel, uh, you can, you can feel what's going on. And this is the pounding of the, the beginning part to, um, talks about when, you know, we used to use, well, we use them, but they would do it. Um, so it's, it's trackers like people that can really good trackers back when they would have get native people to help track down fugitives or whatever, but they could look at a footprint and they could tell you what time of the day the person made the footprint, what they were wearing, uh, stuff like that. This really intuitive stuff that is not, you don't, you can't get it from just observation of a footprint. You've got a feel that footprint, you've got to get this, this sematic experiencing from that footprint. And it's, uh, and it's parents just skill that we can all do. And there's all these different exercises to, to do it. And I just think that those sorts of things are all a part of us evolving our consciousness, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (
01:19:15
):
Um, yeah. And you know, I think I reached a point in my life where I realized, or I told myself, this is all really, uh, a grand illusion. And so I can, I can go through this illusion, creating delusions that I want, uh, which sounds pretty, um, pretty wacky perhaps. Um, but then I recognized, you know, everything's an illusion because where is your memory of something that happened half hour ago? It's only a neuronal representation, this colored by your feelings and emotions that you stored away. That's why I witness accounts really. Aren't always even that credible in the courtroom, because it's based on your past history is based on your feelings. It's based on your thoughts, how you colored all that. So if all this is just my coloration of how the world, you know, is going, then it makes me incredibly powerful. I can drive the illusion with my intentions.
Speaker 2 (
01:20:28
):
Now you go in some way, no, you're not getting it. I don't think you get it out there. I think you're getting somewhere. I mean, I think that's, you know, I did a podcast recently on manifesting. Um, I've manifested all sorts of crazy stuff in my life and that's, that's all just because I can, I control it, you know? And, and, uh, yeah, I really think when you get your head around just how connected everything is. Uh, and I, and I think you've got to get a, a gateway into this. You kind of, you gotta have a gateway drug, you've got to have an experience that kind of makes you go, Ooh, I never thought that was possible. Then one of the ones that happened to me was a few years ago, I was in Kenya. And, um, as with this lady, she's been a Safari guide in Kenya for about 17 years.
Speaker 2 (
01:21:19
):
And we were walking along and there was some giraffe up ahead of us. And she said, Oh, watch this, this giraffe's going to go over and eat this Acacia tree, you know, so that the flat top trees you see, like in the lion King and stuff. And she said, if you watch these giraffes, start it in that Acacia tree, but they're only going to eat that tree for about three or four or five minutes, and then they'll move on. And I said, Oh, why are they, are they conservationists or something? And she said, no. She said the tree consent it's being eaten. So it starts to secrete this nasty tasting stuff into the leaves. And I said, really? She said, yes, but what's even more fascinating is it will not walk to the tree next door. If you watch a little skip about two or three trees before it starts eating again.
Speaker 2 (
01:22:02
):
And I said, why is that? She said, well, the trees can communicate to each other through the roots. So this one tells the neighbor I'm getting attacked. You'd better secrete that stuff too. And the giraffe knows from experience that if this tree starts to taste like crap, the next two trees over will taste like crap. But the third tree over won't taste like crap. So I'll just, when I leave this one, I'll just skip the next two and go to the third tree in line. And I, what I observed it right after that the giraffe ate the tree for about three or four minutes and then wandered off skipped walk past two perfectly good Acacia trees to get to the third one and started eating again, and then repeated that thing over and over. And when you see something like that, you just kind of go, I don't know anything about anything.
Speaker 4 (
01:22:56
):
Yeah. You know, it's kind of interesting, you know, those roots, they look just like Denverites underneath the ground, you know, passing messages onward. And, you know, it's fascinating because nature doesn't start over. It kind of uses the patterns and, uh, and uh, methods and, you know, just our brains, our brains, you know, we have a reptilian brain inside our brain, you know, and then mammalian brain gets lumped onto that. You know, it's not starting over, it's just an addition onto, and then the neocortex is locked on to that. So that's just an addition. It's like a third scoop of ice cream on your cone. It's not starting completely over again. And, uh, so yeah, I get fascinated by, by, you know, patterns that I see in nature that artists then recreate, and I'm gonna find a whole new thing on, on, on how we see things. How will you visualize things? How, you know, uh, how patterns resonate with us patterns in nature that could speak to us because you find them in cave drawings and things like that. Things like a Nautilus shell, you know, that circular thing that ends up being, you know, the same design that's in the Guggenheim art museum,
Speaker 2 (
01:24:23
):
It's called the Fibonacci sequence. It's called the Fibonacci sequence. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (
01:24:28
):
Yeah. And, you know, even with there's this book it's L Escher Bach, it says, look, you were communicating these messages through lots of different mediums. So Cadel did it with math and Esther did it with art and Bach did it with his Fuchs, but they're all the same message, the same circular interacting intertwining kind of, kind of thing. So you see that there are messages out there in, in nature, we tap into them and think we have this, this secret, we're really just filters, filtering through a message. So how much, uh, uniqueness is actually out there. So sometimes I think, you know, I've tapped into something. Sometimes I'll talk at a lecture and are just, or especially when I'm writing, if I write something and then all of a sudden I found I filled a notebook full and I think, wait a second, was I even thinking when I wrote this and it's all just beautifully articulate what I wanted to say, and it's on paper, was that me? Or did I tap something? And I almost always feel I tapped something.
Speaker 2 (
01:25:39
):
Yeah. I think you're, I think you're definitely tapping into something. So, Hey, we've been going here for about an hour and a half, and I've got some questions I need to ask you. So we better get started on these questions. And so if you guys listening, I have a list of 20 or so questions. I send out to my guests and they get to choose which ones they'd like to answer. So I'm going to start in on Steve's questions here and that you may have already answered some of these so we can skip some if you have to. But, uh, the first question is what is the most worthwhile thing that you've put your time into something that you've done that has changed the course of your life?
Speaker 5 (
01:26:20
):
[inaudible],
Speaker 4 (
01:26:20
):
You know, my dad had a brain tumor, a glioblastoma inoperable, it killed him, but it led me in wanting to know what was, what happened, you know, uh, first off, genetically, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But then it drove me to, into my study of neurology and drove me down the path where, uh, you know, all the patients that came afterwards that I saw that I was able to help, uh, all came out of that event. So if,
Speaker 4 (
01:26:57
):
If I have a, a legacy, I want it to be, uh, and, and, you know, I, I saw them test my dad, you know, his stick, this, this, the Sendai up through an artery in your leg, et cetera. And that was old school. You know, when he is in the hospital, they just, all right, here, you are take this, this chart. You're going to do this next, uh, uh, we got the glioblastoma, number three, he's going to go over here and I know medicine has changed, but I've tried to be kind as well, you know, really spend time listening to patients. I know they're nervous. I know they're scared. I know, you know, you know, they've got to put their trust in me. And so I think, uh, having used my knowledge of brain functioning to help people to understand, uh, to make diagnosis. So they get the right treatment and to be kind in the process was, uh, was to me setting up these memory clinics was the most worthwhile thing that I'll leave behind.
Speaker 2 (
01:28:05
):
Wow. That's very cool. Um, okay. Next question. I think we may have already touched on this a bit before, but what has, what have you changed in the past five years that has helped shaped who you have become?
Speaker 4 (
01:28:20
):
I think allowing myself, like we had discussed to just think outside of the box and then just to be amazed that, that this horse neurology, science, uh, personal growth, um, spirituality, uh, actually all seems to be intertwined. So the excitement of allowing myself to open up all my interests, all, all my interests in, instead of transitioning from one to another, just making them additions to who I am. And that's what feels really good.
Speaker 2 (
01:29:02
):
Yeah. That's very cool to hold science and the Wu all or matching together. So this next question, I, I love, I love this question. I love listening to people's answers to this question and almost everybody I think has chosen to answer this one. What is your relationship like with fear?
Speaker 4 (
01:29:23
):
Wow. You know, I recognize it. I recognize it. And, um, and what I tend to do is I know their pathway if, if it's going to cause pain and misery to, um, well, let me say it a different way. Um, I always do a cost analysis. What, what am I going to have to pay to get through this fear? Is this a fear that I can, that I can wrap a cocoon around and deal with later? Or do I want to face it head on and do I have the time and the effort to do it head on? I prefer to do it that way. I had a fear of Heights. So I took up rock climbing. I had a fear of sharks in the ocean after I saw jaws. So I took up scuba diving. So sometimes to hit it head on, and then sometimes I'd like to say, I'm brave.
Speaker 4 (
01:30:23
):
I want to be braver, but maybe there's something in, uh, in our, in our relationship to that. Uh, I may change the relationship and be afraid of that. So it's a Pandora's box. Do I want to open this up? Cause I know what I gotta deal with. And, uh, almost always though, it's recognized my fear and, and, and tackle it. And sometimes I put that on the back burner and I don't do it for a while and I chastise myself for not doing it right away. But my bent is to, is fear. It's always based on the unknown and always is always wraps up like, um, your brain, your frontal lobe builds this whole thing around the fear when actually dealing with the fear directly, it seems to be so much smaller. And then once you're past it on the other side, you know, you feel like you've grown. So I use that dopamine on the other side of the fear to get, uh, to get through. So my strategy typically is to, to knock it head on,
Speaker 2 (
01:31:36
):
You know, that's interesting. I, I, it didn't even occur to me when I asked that to you, excuse me. That, that you would, and when you started talking, I'm like, Oh yeah, of course Steve would do, this is analyze, okay. What's actually happening in my brain right now, what excitatory chemicals are going on and how do I change those to, how do I get dopamine out of that? And, and I didn't really even think about that. And then I thought, Oh yeah, of course, you're going to go that way. Yeah, that was pretty cool. Um, one of the other questions that you suggested to ask is what is, what is it, what do you think it means to be a leader and a follower? What does, what does leadership followership look like to you?
Speaker 4 (
01:32:21
):
I'm glad you brought this up because I don't want to get political, but in this world we we've lost track of what I think those things are. And I think it'd be good leaders in my, in my lifetime. I was a Navy officer and had good commanding officers and bad. Uh, I, I worked for Goldman Sachs investment bank. So I, at one point in time, I had leaders that, you know, were good and bad in the business world. And in corporate settings and across the board, those leaders that were really good. Um, they allowed people to think they had a say so that they had ownership in what they were doing. They had a sense of, of getting across. We are all in this together, you know, whether we like it or not, we are all in this together and that they cared about you.
Speaker 4 (
01:33:15
):
I had one captain, you know, we had a seaman on the, on the ship, like the lowliest seaman. And, you know, we were going into the Suwon, Iraq war zone, and things were a little tense and a captain is walking around and we're talking about what we're going to do, you know, in certain eventualities and the captain stopped for a second, you went over to see him and said this, we are Weiss an artist. And the semen said, uh, yeah, how'd, you know that? And he said, well, when we were walking down through the rooms, I saw this piece of art that you had put up on the wall next to your rack and wrapping the bed. And, uh, I, uh, I thought that was really pretty neat looking. And, uh, we walked away and that semen was beaming. And I knew that guy would do anything for that captain after that.
Speaker 4 (
01:34:00
):
And it only took a second. And then I've seen poor leadership where yeah, I'm going to get where I'm going to get. And I don't care if you guys get there or not, I'm going to win the prize. And, you know, that's pretty tough. I don't really care about, about you and not being able to sell the idea that we're in this together. And that there's ownership being a good follower is actually saying, I support this leadership. There are lots of times where the captain might've given me an order that would be unpopular with my men. And I could have gone down there and bitched about it and said, yeah, we're not going to do that. You know, or this is a bunch of crap. I don't know why they do that. But if you are a good follower, then you have to help the leadership.
Speaker 4 (
01:34:51
):
And so I had to go down and say, we are in this situation, and I know you guys wanted to have Liberty and go ashore, but our mission is this. And so we're going to have to do that. And in order to help the captain do that and help our ship on its mission, we all have to do this. Are you guys in with me on this bingo? And so following sometimes doing what you don't want to do, but trusting in your, in your leadership, it's not following work such as you're being just a sheep, you know, but, but embracing the mission of the whole is, is more important than just you individually. And, uh, and that knowing that you're a valuable piece of, of all that, there's a movie I love master and commander. Have you seen that? Okay.
Speaker 2 (
01:35:40
):
Russell, Russell, Russell Crowe. Yeah. And it's about a set in the 18 hundreds, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (
01:35:46
):
Yeah. He's a sea captain. He's got a scientist doctor, friend of his, a board and they land in the Galapagos. And, you know, he understands that wow, there's are important scientific fines. So he's going to let the scientists wander on the Galapagos and take notes and things, but they find this French ship is approaching. And their number one mission is to go to this attack, this ship. So what he does is he has to, he has to say, I know this is unpopular and I know what I promised you, but we can't do this. We have to do that. And you know, all the men on the ship, you notice, you know, he'll, he'll stop. And he'll say a little something and, and have a pleasant conversation with the lowliest seaman and they'll follow him to the ends of the earth. And so I, I often tell people, if you want to see an example of really good leadership, look at Russell Crowe and master a commander.
Speaker 4 (
01:36:49
):
He's got things, pulling them in all directions. It's not like he's rigid. He understands all of these, these things, but somebody has to take the reins and lead and, and make the best decisions overall support the, the mission. So a good follower supports the leadership in a good leader does just that leave. And best of all, leaders never take the credit. It's always because the people under them did what, what they needed to do. And he relied on their TA. He or she relied on their talents and hits the fan and it goes South and things go wrong. It's always the leader who steps up and says, that's that's me responsibility and is key. Right. Accountability is key. Okay. Off my soap box.
Speaker 2 (
01:37:40
):
Wow. That is, that is the most complete answer I've ever got to that question. That was very cool. What did you, what did you do in the Navy?
Speaker 4 (
01:37:48
):
I was, uh, I started out with something called a first Lieutenant. So I said, I was in charge of guys, we'll call boson mates. So they just the upkeep of the outside of the ship and et cetera. And then I became the navigator, which was really cool because then, you know, I'd be out on the, on the bridge wing at night and learning celestial navigation and making sure that our, our ship was on course. So then I felt that akin to, you know, all the explorers, you know, Columbus, Francis, Drake, et cetera, uh, out there in, in waters that I'd never been in on this ship, uh, uh, as navigators. So that was pretty fun.
Speaker 2 (
01:38:32
):
You know, there is something about the staring into the stars at night time that does something to you.
Speaker 4 (
01:38:39
):
I like to tell myself we're made at the same stuff, that we were all this energy and that always makes the world seem smaller. You know, sometimes when I think of all the world's problems and how we fight each other and Americans versus Americans, et cetera. And I think, you know, maybe we need an attack from Mars to see some threat to realize, you know, what, we're earthlings and we're all in this together. And really we're all citizens of this, this universe, we're all parts of that. And so I love that night, you know, that we are just a small little blue marble, as they say, down here. And there's all of that out there. It puts things in perspective.
Speaker 2 (
01:39:25
):
There was a really good Netflix show on a couple of years ago, will Smith narrated it. And it was called one strange rock and it was all perspectives of astronauts. And, you know, once you've been off the planet and look back at it, you, you, your perspective of the world completely changes. And it was, uh, it was, uh, it was a pretty cool, um, pretty cool thing. I did a podcast recently with a lovely lady from Scotland named Tanya Kindersley, and she's a writer, uh, and when, when she writes, it's like poetry and she, but she also speaks the same way she writes, and she's got this lovely Scottish accent, but she's talking about her, her off the track, thoroughbred mayor and share, she goes out into the, into the pasture and she, she just sits there with a horse and she says, and I can't I'll paraphrase it.
Speaker 2 (
01:40:18
):
But she basically shares, I think about how the fact, we are both made up of the remnants of ancient stars and what, and, and we, when we, and we connect on a cosmic level and I, she said, and I peer across the species barrier at her, you'll have to listen to it. It was like the most crazy, this crazy line about where all her and I are, both remnants of ancient stars. And we spear across the species barrier at each other. It was just, it was just one of those moments, but yeah, you kind of alluded to the same stuff there. That's, that's a great answer. Um, and I've got the one more question for you here, Steve, before we go, because we probably need to wrap up soon. Uh, what do you do? Where do you go to relieve stress or recharge your batteries? Or where do you find motivation or inspiration for what you do?
Speaker 4 (
01:41:08
):
Um, there are a couple of places, one I've I particularly designed when I first retired here to the house, there were some things on the house that needs to be attended to, but what I get, I have a mountain back behind me. That's my, my house sets at the foot of this mountain. So I began trail clearing and I cleared this trail all the way up to the top. Cause I had to have that vantage point where I could see the world. So I took the dogs up there and we worked on that. And part of the whole process was just creating this. But once I got up there, I, I did this. I used to do this as well. I used to tell myself when I come home, you know, I would talk to patients and sometimes they'd have terminal illnesses and I'd have to tell them that.
Speaker 4 (
01:41:59
):
And so I couldn't carry emotionally, all that stuff home with me. So there was a bridge and I would tell myself all that emotion from work cannot cross this bridge. You can deal with it. You can flow it around. You can, you can let it, you know, touch you. But once you cross this bridge that's work and it has to stay on that side of the bridge, much like this trail, I climb up there and I can, I get perspective. I can see I'm in Colorado and I can see the mountains of New Mexico from way up there. And there are pine trees that have left their needles down. So there's always a soft bed to set in up there. And I just kind of go up there and nothing's allowed to come up there. What's on in the world is down below. What's going on. All the frenetic worry [inaudible] is down here. I don't allow myself to carry it up the mountain and up on the mountain, these fresh air in a big purse, broad perspective. So that's my spot.
Speaker 2 (
01:42:59
):
Wow. That's that sounds like an amazing place up there. Do you, do you, uh, do you go up there meditate?
Speaker 4 (
01:43:07
):
I do. You do. I do.
Speaker 2 (
01:43:10
):
Wow. Um, we're going to have to wrap this up cause we've been going for a couple of, almost a couple of hours.
Speaker 4 (
01:43:16
):
I don't know how much we've talked about horses, but I love the journey. I really have loved this journey.
Speaker 2 (
01:43:22
):
I actually, I love the journey that you're on. I have to thank you for, for, uh, putting that book out in the evidence-based horsemanship book out in the first place, because I think it was one of the, one of the seeds that was planted that maybe started me making, started me to look at things just a little bit differently and that seed has grown quite a bit. So thank you so much for that, but, but also thank you from the greater horse community for the work that you, uh, continuing to do, because I think, and especially what we talked about today, because I think that the science and the woo, uh, I think the science is actually proving the woo these days, you know, the whole observer effect and all that sort of stuff. So, so thank you for, for being the science guy. Who's open enough to go out there and get into the Woodward too, because I think the world really need someone like you to do that.
Speaker 2 (
01:44:22
):
Well, I appreciate that work and thank you for having me on. And if you ever find yourself in Colorado, come on over and we'll climb that mountain together. Oh yes. I'd be looking forward to it. And I'm probably, I'm probably going to have to have you back on the podcast again, cause we haven't even started to tap into, uh, some of the things that we need to talk about, but we'll save that for another time. Sounds good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And if you guys listening at home, thanks for joining us on the journey on podcast and we will catch you on the next step.
Speaker 1 (
01:44:55
):
Thanks for listening to the journey on podcast with work Schiller Warrick has over 650 full length training videos on his online video library at videos dot Warrick, schiller.com. Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram, to see his latest training advice and insights.