Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep42 - Troubleshooting Free Stack Training

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist.

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And this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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This episode's question is from
one of our students

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who's working on show stacks,
and she's running into some challenges.

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Here's the question.

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Hi all.

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I have a ten week old Labrador puppy.

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I have the Killer Free Stacks video,

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but she was raised with Puppy Culture.

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So when I try and get a moment
of stillness to mark, she auto sets.

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If I hold the food in front of her,

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she digs in at it hard and will sit.

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Any tips on teaching
a stack would be great.

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Okay, this is me again.

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So before I answer her question,
I want to get a couple of things

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out of the way that I'm not going
to address in this podcast.

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First of all,

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neither Manding

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nor teaching a puppy to sit automatically
because they're not the same thing.

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And I'll address that next.

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Neither of those things will interfere
with the show stack.

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On the contrary, teaching your puppy
those things will just make him

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a more confident and enthusiastic showman.

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That's its own whole podcast,

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but you can read my article on this
at madcapuniversity.com.

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If you click on Free Resources
and then navigate to articles,

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the name of the article is Will

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the Real Show Stack please stand up?

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There's video in there.

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It explains everything, as I say,
beyond the scope of this podcast,

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but I'm just going to get it
out of the way that teaching Manding

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or an auto sit - two different things not
going to interfere with your show stack.

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Going to make your show stack better.

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Second of all, Manding

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is not auto sit,
although the querent is conflating

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the two things,
they're not even similar to each other.

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It's what I call a behavior homophone

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because both involve the dog
in a seated position.

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Manding doesn't have to be seated,
but often it is.

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And that's the way that we teach it.

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People tend to get them confused
because to us

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it looks like the same thing,

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but it's not.

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Manding is a puppy

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forward request for something.

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And auto sit is a top down rule

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that the puppy cannot access resources
until they sit first.

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Apples and orange.

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Not even related behaviors in the puppy's
mind.

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Again,
way beyond the scope of this podcast.

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But I did write an article on this again
in Madcap University,

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Free Resources, Articles section.

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Read Manding quote

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failure unquote and emotional learning.

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I go into it all there.

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Okay, those two things out of the way.

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Let's talk about this

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because it's a common problem, right?

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We think we have a behavior, and then
we want to start getting duration on it.

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And things start falling apart.

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I did ask the

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querent to send in a video,
and she didn't either

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didn't see it or just didn't
get around to taking the video.

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So I did not see this behavior.

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But I can say almost for certain

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that it has to do with one of two things.

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Either hand position

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or she's trying to up the duration too
quickly.

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Let's talk about hand position first,

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because it's the easiest thing to fix.

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If you're trying to get duration

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and you keep getting a sit on a show
stack.

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The most obvious answer
is probably the correct answer.

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Meaning to say the puppy
probably thinks you want a sit,

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and the reason
the puppy thinks you want to sit

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is most likely your hand position.

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Not some preconceived notion
that they need to offer a sit.

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When you're trying

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to get a dog to stand versus sit.

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You have to make sure that you're
pulling your hand forward

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and not up
when you move it away from the dog.

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So you want to go straight out

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at the at the nose level of the dog.

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In Killer Free Stacks,
you see me letting the puppies

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nibble on the meat
and then quickly pulling my hand

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up and out of the puppies line of vision.

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First of all,

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I do it really fast
and I'm very good at it so I can,

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what I'm doing is
I'm just having it, like, now you see it,

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now you don't with these puppies where
they're chewing on it and then it's gone.

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So it's that poof disappearing
that sort of stuns them for a second,

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and they freeze
and that's when I can get a click in.

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But those are five week old puppies.

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She's dealing with an eight week
old puppy.

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It's a little harder to fool
that eight week old puppy.

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So it's possible that if she's pulling her
hand up and out and she's already done

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some training with the dog,
using her hand for a sit,

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you know
you're not writing on a blank slate

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any more with an eight week old puppy.

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So probably at least some of this

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is going to be her hand position
coming up and coming up too slowly.

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So I would say for an eight week
old puppy,

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especially one that's had some training,
some with sit,

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maybe some hand position,
maybe some luring already

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that you want to bring that
hand straight out at the level of the nose

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and maybe not all that fast,
maybe move it away a little slower.

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So again, I have not seen

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what's going on with this team,

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but if I had them in front of me,

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I would try having her

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do the slow forward hand
and also the poof it's gone hand,

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but really make sure she's doing the poof
it's gone fast enough and crisp enough,

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and then just see which one
was working better for her.

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Okay, I'm going to close the hand position

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advice by saying the slow
bringing of your hand forward

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instead of up and out of vision is handy
if you're going to be doing

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any kind of rally or obedience,
because that will become

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your stand signal for the dog.

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So now let's say you clean up your hand
position.

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You're sure you're not giving a sit cue,

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but you still can't get duration
on the stack?

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My best guess

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at that point
is that the puppy's not yet clear

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that it is stand that's paying,

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and you've tried to jump to duration
before the puppy is really solid on that

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first level,
which is understanding that the behavior

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is a stack.

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With duration,

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in that case, you probably need
to stay on the level of no duration for 1

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or 2 more sessions to solidify in the
puppies mind that it's stand.

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So I would do at

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least two separate sessions
over a couple days.

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Not back to back, not in the same day.

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You want to give some room for distributed
learning there?

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Then I would want her to try again,

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but try for just a split second.

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A really split second of stillness.

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So you want just enough
that if it were punctuation,

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it would definitely be a period
and not a comma.

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But you don't want an ellipses, okay.

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You're not looking for three dots.

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You're looking for one dot.

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And reinforce the heck out of that
for another two sessions.

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Now at that point,

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when you start going for that split

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second of delay, your puppy may sit,

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but that's okay,

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because if you have reinforced
the previous level enough,

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it should not take more than three times

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for the light bulb
to go off that it’s stand.

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Now I want to pause here

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because I'm giving you like $1,000 of free

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dog training advice, right here.

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Dog training is binary.

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It's zeros and ones.

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There are no wrong
behaviors or right behaviors.

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There are only behaviors
that pay and behaviors

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that do not pay.

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You have to give the dog

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the opportunity to guess what you want,

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and sometimes the guess
is going to be wrong.

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But if, and this is the $10,000 if,

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if you have set up the training
criteria correctly,

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it should not take more
than three wrong guesses

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for the dog to get it right.

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If it takes more than three

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guesses, you have made a mistake.

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You have bid wrong on that session.

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You have raised or changed the criteria

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too quickly or too much.

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You know, this is really the tricky part

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about dog training is that as a trainer,
we have to bid.

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As I say,
we we guess going into a session,

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what we think that dog
is going to be able to

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guess because the dog's
throwing guesses out with their behavior.

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They're like, I think it's this.

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I think it's that they're in it
in good faith, okay?

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And we're in it in good faith.

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But sometimes we make a mistake
and we don't bid right,

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and we try
to get too much out of our dogs.

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So what do you do then?

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I have an answer for this.

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If you're in a session

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and the puppy's gotten it wrong
three times,

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has not been able to guess what
you want out of the three times.

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My recommendation

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is to end that session for now.

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You can come back to it
a short while later with a lower criteria,

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but I do not recommend

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that you change the criteria
to make it easier

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within that same session.

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Why is that?

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Well, a lot of people think
I want the puppy to end with success.

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I want to end on a good note.

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But here's what the problem is.

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When you're doing this kind of training
where it's free shaping

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and the dog
just throwing out behaviors and guessing

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and the dog's not getting it right,
and you say, oh, here, you know what?

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I'm just going to make it easier for you
so you can get it right.

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You're

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now making a rule.

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You're establishing a rule in this game,
which is, hey, you know,

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you really don't
have to try that hard to get it right.

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All you have to do
is throw out some kind of behavior,

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and then I'm going
to make it easier for you.

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It's not a moralistic thing, okay?

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There's no morals in dog training.

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There's morals and criteria.

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That's a different story.

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But there's no morals in dog training.

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The dog isn't taking advantage of you.

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You are not being mean to the dog
by not ending on a good note.

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No, what you're doing
if you lower your criteria,

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is you're teaching the dog a new rule,
which is that, hey,

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you know when the going gets tough,
my handler makes it easier for me.

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And that is the opposite
of what we want to teach our dogs.

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We want them to be operant and determined
and keep trying.

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So ironically,

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by doing something
that you think is encouraging,

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by making it a little easier for them
so they end on a good note.

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Well, in fact, you're teaching them
to be quitters essentially.

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And again, when I say quitters,

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I don't mean it in a moralistic sense.

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I mean, it's evolutionary efficiency.

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There's an evolutionary advantage

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to doing the least you can
to expending the least to get the food.

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When I used

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to do a lot of seminars on the road,
I'd see it all the time.

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People would sign up for my free
shaping seminars

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and they would say,
my dog can't free shape.

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He gets stressed.

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He gets stressed.

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Well, what does stress look like?

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Stress to them is the dog

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would throw out two behaviors
and then start barking at the handler.

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And what would the handler do?

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Make it easier and give the dog a treat.

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It's just an understanding.

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The dog.

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The dog's not stress.

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The dog doesn't think, oh, I can't.

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Oh, I'm so stressed, I need to bark.

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I need to, you know, release my stress
through my barking.

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No, it's like this works.

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I mean, I bark, my handler gives me food.

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Well, what's the problem here?

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So circling back to

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a direct answer for this woman,

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if her puppy gets 3 or 4 zeroes in a row,

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meaning to say behaviors
that are not the behavior

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you're looking for,
the puppy doesn't get paid,

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it tells you that you overbid the session.

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You raise the criteria too quickly.

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Put the puppy away
for at least ten minutes

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and you know, ten minutes, give or take.

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It's enough.

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You don't need a long break
like you need for distributed learning.

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You just need enough break that it's clear
we're starting a new session

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and then come back.

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Drop your criteria and try again.

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Now, I do sometimes make adjustments

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during a training session,
but let me talk about this for a second.

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When you go into a training session,

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you should have a very clear picture

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of the criteria for that session.

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Just for instance,
I've got an eight week old puppy.

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I've done three sessions of just Click
for Standing Still,

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and now I'm going to go for that

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split second of hesitation.

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And I know that's my criteria going in,

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but if I

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take out that puppy and start
working with him

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and I don't have

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attention, he's wandering away.

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I can't even get the stack
that I had before.

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I'm going to jettison
that criteria that I came into the session

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with and address
what I've got going on right now.

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And usually that's going
to be dropping back a level

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or dealing with some environmental stuff.

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Who knows?

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But the point being that I will,
I will change

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my criteria during a training session.

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But early in the training session, okay,

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I'm never going to change my criteria

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once my puppy has given me repeated

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wrong answers
which really aren't wrong answers.

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They’re zeros.

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Once my puppy's given me repeated zeros,

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there is no way out of this.

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Okay, I'm going to take my lumps,
put the puppy away,

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come back
with lower criteria in the next session.

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And by
the way, I'm also going to give myself

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some grace here because I'm not a machine.

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The puppy's not a machine.

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We're all bidding
these training sessions, okay?

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And sometimes we just don't get it right.

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And that's okay.

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But what does this mean

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in the bigger picture?

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It means that the trainer

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who takes the longest to train a behavior

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usually wins.

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Our human tendency is to think

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that the puppy that learns the quickest,
or the trainer

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who can shape
the puppies up faster is better.

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But the faster you go,

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the more you're pushing criteria
and the more likely

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you are to overbid criteria
and wind up with no good options

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to drive out of it.

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So I said

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all this, and I
don't want to leave you on this note,

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because I feel like it's
a little bit of a cautionary tale.

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Like I'm

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trying to scare you into

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slicing the criteria so thinly,
and now some less experienced

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people might feel a little bit paralyzed,
like they don't want to make a mistake.

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And I'm I'm just giving you permission
to make mistakes, okay?

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Everybody makes mistakes.

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And now great news.

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You know what to do if you make a mistake,
you have a procedure to follow.

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And I'd go even one step further and say,
don't think of it as a mistake.

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Think of it as information,
because that's really what it is.

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It's a conversation
between you and the puppy.

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You got the information
you have to adjust your criteria.

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That's okay.

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Listen, the only people that don't make
mistakes are the people who never try.

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If you like this podcast,
you'll love our show training

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00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,560
videos available at puppyculture.com.

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00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,240
And while you're there,
check out our bundles.

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00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,080
We have bundles for breeders, bundles
for pet puppy owners, bundles for show

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00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,720
puppy owners, bundles for new puppy
owners, bundles for training.

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00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,160
Check them all out at puppyculture.com.

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Well, that's it for this time.

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Thanks for listening. Bye bye.