AvTalk Episode 244: Olov Lindström: how to land a 787 in Antarctica

AVT 244 Transcript
EPISODE 244
[EPISODE]
[0:00:07] IP: Hello, and welcome to Episode 244 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, joined once
again, as always with –
[0:00:17] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Hello, Ian. Sorry, I kind of ghosted you last week, but I was on
vacation not even accessible to you.
[0:00:27] IP: That must mean it's a very good vacation. How are you enjoying your time on the
other side of the planet?
[0:00:32] JR: It's very far away but very good, getting very lucky with the weather in Tokyo,
Osaka, Kyoto, and now here in Taipei, [inaudible 0:00:43]. I played down in the south so all over
Taiwan. It's been fun to say the least.
[0:00:48] IP: So, you obviously flew there. I don't think you rode a boat.
[0:00:51] JR: I did not take a cross-world cruise ship. That would be interesting.
[0:00:55] IP: That would be fun, fun, but definitely a change of pace. So, anything stand out on
this trip so far, as far as flights and things go?
[0:01:03] JR: Yes. I guess, it got off to a bit of an interesting start. Flew with United from Newark
to Tokyo Haneda. My first time actually flying to Haneda. It was very nice experience. But it was
an odd start with United. It was a morning flight, 9:45am, a 777-200ER out of Newark. It was
supposed to be operated by one of the Pratt & Whitney aircraft. And then something happened
and we ended up on one of the GE-powered aircraft, which I thought was a nice little win. The
crew of the flight was really, really happy, welcoming, just generally awesome. Up in the flight
deck while they wrapped up their preflight checks and everything, and they're just inviting
people into the flight deck to come in, sit down, take some pictures, and I did that. And they're
© 2023 AvTalk 1
AVT 244 Transcript
like, “Okay, we're all ready to go. We're about to button up everything. Great, head back to your
seats and we'll be out of here shortly.”
As I'm walking out of the cockpit, literally one foot out, I get a text message on my phone saying,
“We're sorry, but due to a maintenance delay, your flight is delayed by 30 minutes, and you'll get
an update in 30 minutes.” I'm like, “Well, that's odd, because the pilots in the flight deck.” Didn't
seem to have any clue about that about five seconds ago. So, that was a bit odd. But what
turned out to happen was that the actual captain of the aircraft, who was not on the flight deck at
the time, was doing a walk around of the preflight, walk around the aircraft, and happened to
notice that the aircraft on most likely its inbound flight, its prior inbound flight, probably about
eight hours prior appeared to have a bird strike that went unnoticed. And there was actually
some damage to the right-hand side engine that needed, unfortunately, about 2 hours and 45
minutes’ worth of maintenance inspections and repairs and paperwork and all that.
Thankfully, we were on our way, a bit late, a bit touch and go. They were letting people off the
plane and rescheduling some people in busted connections. But thankfully, we made it with only
a couple hours delay since we didn't have a connection or anything. But that whole series of
events was a bit funny timing.
[0:03:08] IP: Now, here's the question. Did you show the pilots that were on the flight deck the
text?
[0:03:12] JR: I was one foot out the door already. So, I wasn't in there with them. But that would
have been very funny. Like, “Hey, guys, did you know the flights delayed?”
[0:03:21] IP: Delayed. Can I just come back and sit down?
[0:03:22] JR: Did you want to tell me about that part, because four seconds ago, you told me
we're all good and ready to go. So, something clearly has changed. But I do want to give the
United flight and cabin crew a shout-out because through the entire time, they were extremely
forthcoming, really just happy providing updates, and you could tell they obviously did not want
to be in that situation either. But it makes all the difference in that 2-hour, 45-minute delay when
© 2023 AvTalk 2
AVT 244 Transcript
you have a happy, engaged, communicative crew, as opposed to one that's maybe just hiding
out in the flight deck or the galley, and really not giving you updates.
So, it really made the time go by quicker because they weren't biting people up to the flight deck
and giving updates. It was just a good way to go through nearly three-hour delay, I guess, which
is a weird thing to say. But it could have been –
[0:04:11] IP: No, it's not weird at all. I mean, that to me, as a passenger makes all the
difference. We've talked about this before where the two of us often suffer from a detriment of
information, where we know how to find out – exactly – where we know how to find out what's
actually happening. And therefore, sometimes we've made decisions based on that knowledge
that haven't worked out for us operationally. But when you don't have that information, or even if
you're just sitting there and there's nothing you can really do about it. I mean, what are you
going to get out and grab a wrench and go help. I mean, it makes all the difference in the world
to have a crew or gate agents or whatever staff there is, that is being open and communicating
honestly, even if the news isn't good.
[0:05:05] JR: Just knowing what it is.
[0:05:07] IP: The thing that bothers me so much is that rolling 30-minute delay.
[0:05:12] JR: That's exactly what we had. It was exactly a rolling 30-minute delay, every 30
minutes on the dot.
[0:05:17] IP: I get it. That's your standard procedure. We don't know how long it's going to take,
so we'll just keep you posted every 30 minutes. But I feel like at the outset, you kind of know,
maybe, we're going to take a look at things. Then once they've taken a look at things, they
probably know about how long this thing will take. I feel like that would make all the difference in
the world, if airlines would just say, “Okay, instead of giving you an update every 30 minutes,
here's the thing. This is what's going to happen. We're going to try and fix this thing. It usually
takes about 90 minutes.” Because that way, if a person who has a tight connection, they can
start planning for that. Not, “Oh, am I going to make my connection? Am I not going to make my
connection? Because I get an update every 30 minutes.”
© 2023 AvTalk 3
AVT 244 Transcript
[0:05:57] JR: Yes. And that's what happened here where United, I guess in the operation center
or coming from maintenance, they were saying, “Every 30 minutes we're fixing something,
something. We’ll provide an update in 30 minutes.” But the actual information on board coming
from the captain of the flight who was extremely involved in this whole situation, was much more
telling saying, “Hey, this is the problem. Maintenance is here. They're working on it. They say it's
about 30 minutes.” And towards the hour, two plus, you can tell he was getting a bit antsy, and
he was telling us, “Well, the maintenance people, they’re not being” –
[0:06:29] IP: He’s like, “I know it’s not 30 minutes.”
[0:06:31] JR: They're not being quite forthright with us on an estimated time, but they say about
30 minutes. So, sit tight. If your connections are close, they'll be worked on when we get to
Tokyo. But he put on his high-vis vest. He got the jet bridge back attached to the aircraft, and he
went out there and had some words with them. Sure enough, we were on our way. But it was
really a situation which could have been a lot worse.
But it was funny during one of the many hours we were on board, I got to chatting with I think
every crew member onboard the aircraft, and we were discussing what was going on. He goes
to me, “How much do you know about aircraft when I asked what was going on?” And I said, “Hit
me with whatever you got and I’ll figure it out.”
[0:07:14] IP: Enough to be dangerous.
[0:07:16] JR: Exactly. Enough to know what I'm talking about. We went probably about a 10-
minute conversation about what exactly went wrong, that there was some damage to possibly
one of the fan blades, and the fan hub, and all this and that, and it was mostly just paperwork,
and can we defer what happened? Or do we need to scrap the flight and get a new plane? It
was just really, really nice and we swapped pictures and travel stories with a lot of the crew. It
was just kind of a fun way to spend almost three hours in Newark.
[0:07:46] IP: I mean, if we're going to be at Newark locked in and aluminum too, we might as
well make it a good time.
© 2023 AvTalk 4
AVT 244 Transcript
[0:07:52] JR: We were not locked. They were letting us out. But there was really nowhere to go.
Anytime I went to a kiosk or looked at my phone for alternative options, it said, “Nope. You’re out
of luck, sucker. Get back on board.”
[0:08:03] IP: This isn't like trying to get to Los Angeles.
[0:08:05] JR: Well, there was another flight to Tokyo, to Narita actually, that left about an hour
after ours, and the crew was quite frank. They said, “If you need to get to Tokyo today, go over
to that gate and get on that flight.” I didn't. I probably should have because we came close to
canceling, but they were very telling. They said, “If you need to get there, get off this plane now,
basically.” Because they weren't quite sure it would be a good day for us.
[0:08:30] IP: I mean, even that's good information to have. So, yes, good on United. My whole
thing about the 30-minute delay was it was not a knock on United at all, because –
[0:08:38] JR: They all do it.
[0:08:39] IP: – it’s just – did they have a meeting at some point? Is this in the Chicago
conventions? We should go back and look. Is this like the 16th freedom of the year? Only give
updates in 30-minute increments.
[0:08:50] JR: That's right. And then beyond that, we flew from Osaka over to Taipei, and I flew a
new airline for myself, STARLUX. And that was on an A330no. I think a one-and-a-half-year-old
aircraft and STARLUX is an interesting brand, let's say.
[0:09:11] IP: Go on.
[0:09:12] JR: Well, it's a new airline. They started up I think in 2020, which is really, really
terrible timing.
[0:09:19] IP: Timing.
© 2023 AvTalk 5
AVT 244 Transcript
[0:09:18] JR: Terrible timing, but they seem to have not really cut back on any of their service
standards. I booked business class using some miles on Alaska Airlines for a rate that was the
same as economy. So, score one for me there. Yes, I love this industry sometimes. But
STARLUX was strange. It was like you can clearly tell they aspire to be like a rocket ship
company, or like some sort of space cruise agency. But right now, all they can muster up is like
an Airbus A330 and 350. But one day they'll get the space. That's their whole theme, is like the
safety video and all their theming is like space age and space travel. But right now, they’ll get
you in and out Taipei and that's as much as they'll do.
[0:10:01] IP: I mean, to be fair, their callsign is STARWALKER.
[0:10:04] JR: It's pretty great. I really, really enjoyed my time on STARLUX. I hope we see them
in New York. I know they're on the West Coast now. A long-haul flight to New York would be a
welcome addition.
[0:10:14] IP: I mean, what fantastic timing. Founded in 2018. First flight, January 23, 2020.
[0:10:25] JR: Oh, yes. I think we’re already starting to –
[0:10:26] IP: I don’t think that you could have timed it worse.
[0:10:28] JR: No.
[0:10:29] IP: But it's good to see that they made it through. And by all accounts, yours included,
they run a great airline.
[0:10:35] JR: Yes, it was pretty great. We'll see what's in store for me tomorrow on my way
back to New York, flying EVA Air back to New York in economy, the long way. So, that's going to
be a lovely 15, 16-hour jot on that flight. Haven't found a way out of economy for this one. So
very much, not quite looking forward to that one.
[0:10:57] IP: I mean, it’s a 777, right?
© 2023 AvTalk 6
AVT 244 Transcript
[0:11:00] JR: It is, yes.
[0:11:00] IP: So, what you need is a ULD and water bottle, you'll be fine.
[0:11:05] JR: Yes. The only saving grace could possibly be if they pull out one of the Hello Kitty
aircraft, which did make the run to JFK yesterday. So, maybe it's on its way back to Taipei now.
Maybe some magic will happen.
[0:11:18] IP: You’ve got a chance.
[0:11:16] JR: – one of the Hello Kitty jets.
[0:11:21] IP: Besides Jason wandering around Asia, we've got a fantastic show today, because
the bulk of the show is our interview with Captain Olov Lindstrom, who is the fleet chief pilot at
Norse Atlantic Airways, and happens to be the first person to Captain a 787 flight down to
Antarctica.
Now, we covered this a little bit that week that it happened, and then we said, “Wait a second,
we've got some questions about how you actually fly down there, because we've talked with
Swen Lindstrom at the Norwegian Polar Institute about how they run the airport. If you haven't
listened to that episode, we'll put a link to that in the show notes, because it’s, I think, a great
companion episode to learn about how they operate a fully functioning airport in Antarctica that
can support a 787.
But in our conversation with Olov Lindstrom, at Norse, we got answers to the questions that
we've kind of had all along, not just about the 787, but all aircraft that fly internationally from
wherever they start down to Cape Town, and then Cape Town down to Antarctica. So, I thought
that this conversation was I could have kept talking for days, but we cut it down to what you're
going to hear next. So, we'll be right back with Olov Lindstrom from Norse. Stay with us.
[INTERVIEW]
© 2023 AvTalk 7
AVT 244 Transcript
[0:12:40] IP: Welcome back. We are now joined by Olov Lindstrom, who is the fleet chief pilot of
Norse Atlantic Airways. We've talked about Norse Atlantic in the past for their low-cost model
and being a successful low-cost, long-haul fleet. But this is a very different conversation. Olov is
the captain who commanded the flight from Cape Town to Troll Station in Antarctica. We've
talked in the past with Swen Lindstrom from the Norwegian Polar Institute about how they run
the airport there. But now we get to hear the opposite perspective, or the incoming perspective,
I guess, we should say, about how you operate an aircraft there. So, Olov, thank you so much
for joining us.
[0:13:26] OL: Thank you very much.
[0:13:28] IP: So, what I'm really keen to learn about, and we've had some questions from
listeners as well as, beyond the ice runway, what makes operating an aircraft to Antarctica, what
makes that flight unique? And I know we can break down some of the differences between a
normal flight and operating tips. So, I guess, do we start with the flight plan? Is that a good place
to start? Or you tell me where we should start?
[0:13:52] OL: I think we can start even earlier than that. We were flying the first 787 to Antarctic
and we’re landing, as far as I know, the first time, a 787, on an ice runway. So, in the initial stage
of the planning, we just wanted to make sure of course that an ice runway can handle a 787.
We suspected that the answer was yes, because there's been a lot of studies in the past on
varying strength of glacier ice. The glacier is 700 meters thick, and the elevation is 4,000 feet.
So, that sort of gives an idea of how thick the glacier is. Unlike sea ice, for example, this is very
strong.
We did a study on that, and we came to the conclusion that we had a safety margin of maybe
10 to 20 times the required strength. Then of course, other things like braking action. Other
airlines have been flying in the past. So again, we suspected that it should be no problem. But
that's also something that we started it carefully, of course. Now, it is clearly different from flying
from, say Oslo to JFK, because you're flying into a part of the world where there's very little
support.
© 2023 AvTalk 8
AVT 244 Transcript
So, in terms Fire Rescue, for example. Or if we back up even further in terms of search and
rescue on the way there, if we hadn't had an issue, on the way from Cape Town, this is a five-
and-a-half-hour flight. So, you're flying in a part of the world where there is very little support,
and that is something that we also ran numerous risk assessments on for the Fire Rescue at the
station, they had previously, of course, service smaller aircraft. So, we had to also study that
carefully, that the equipment and the training they had was sufficient for an airplane of our size.
Then, it's an ETOPS flight. So, it's at the same time, as it's very, very complex and very different
is also very similar. So, we've planted us and ETOPS flight, and we have in Norse Atlantic,
Norway, we have 180-minute ETOPS. These rings, they are 1,202 nautical miles, and the
distance between Cape Town and Troll is approximately double that. I think, they overlapped by
about 70 miles.
[0:16:05] IP: Not a huge margin.
[0:16:06] OL: No, not a huge margin, but still plenty enough for that. So, there is already a little
bit of margin built into those circles as well. But the distances are quite crazy. If you were to flip
this to perhaps some listeners are more used to the northern hemisphere, it is similar to –
imagine you have a polar station on the North Pole, and it's up there by a small burden and not
in most Norway. It will be as if we serviced it from the northern coast of Africa. So, it's like taking
off from say, Tunisia and flying towards the North Pole. Those are the sort of distances that
we're talking about here.
[0:16:42] IP: So, what are the alternate airfields when you're flying Cape Town to Troll?
Because there's nothing in between the two.
[0:16:51] OL: Exactly. Yes, the alternates are Cape Town and Troll on the flight plan. We filed
our flight plan as an ETOPS flight plan with Cape Town being the alternate on one side, and
Troll being the alternate on the other side. Now, we do check the weather at some of the other
airfields that are down in Antarctica, but they are not really suitable for us. They would be, just
worst-case scenario that we could maybe divert to there. But we can get back to the limit
onwards that the weather forecasting is extremely important for this sort of operation.
© 2023 AvTalk 9
AVT 244 Transcript
When we fly Oslo to JFK, I mean, 99% of the time, the flight can depart is rarely an issue with
weather unless you have an ice storm or a hurricane. But above 50% of all the flights that
depart from Cape Town to service the various stations in Antarctica, they are delayed because
of weather. We had a delay as well, about 15 hours due to –
[0:17:45] IP: Right. I mean, that's fascinating to me that the alternates can be, I mean,
obviously, you can always turn back if you need to. But when we talked with Swen Lindstrom
from Norwegian Polar Institute about the weather forecasting on their part, because I know that
they really only operate in fair weather conditions. What does that look like from the flight
planning side? Because I know they're taking readings from various stations around Antarctica,
as well as their own. So, is that information coming to you directly? Or is that pulled from just
kind of your normal flight planning facilities?
[0:18:19] OL: With help from the Polar Institute, we use a service provider, a weather forecast
provider named StormGeo. And they provided us with weather briefings over team, so it’s over a
video call, starting 10 days prior to the flight, and then five days prior, and then just in the hours
prior to the flight, and they gave us the whole lowdown on all the details on the weather.
Because there are such high requirements for the weather. You really do not want to depart
Cape Town, if the weather looks like it's questionable, or even if there's any sort of doubt, then
it's much better to delay the flight and wait for better weather.
[0:18:57] IP: So, I want to come back to the flight plan for a second. How many waypoints are
there? Because we've seen – let's kind of keep with the Oslo, JFK flight. You've got your SID on
departure, and then there's probably a few waypoints before you hit the North Atlantic, and then
you've got your North Atlantic crossing points. Then, New York's a mess, so there's probably
270, 275 waypoints before you get to JFK. What's it look like from Cape Town to – is it just the
Cape Town SID, and then direct to Troll?
[0:19:28] OL: More or less. So, it is the Cape Town SID. As pilots, of course, we love the word
direct. So normally, we would – if you get a direct, you would accept that immediately. But for
this flight, it is already filed more or less direct. But we also put specifically in our procedures
that we do not accept direct routing because we all want to be able to plot our points along the
© 2023 AvTalk 10
AVT 244 Transcript
way. So, if you accept the direct to Troll, then you can really refer back to the flight planner as
such.
[0:20:00] IP: Interesting.
[0:20:01] OL: So, what happens is, I think there's just one or two waypoints out of Cape Town,
lovely airport, by the way. Really fantastic people working there. You take off and you just turn
south and there's one waypoint. Before that waypoint you call up Johannesburg Oceanic, and
you connect to the CPDLC. From that moment on, it's very similar to a North Atlantic flight
where they mainly, with CPDLC, as a way to communicate with the control.
[0:20:31] IP: Interesting. Yes, I mean, I guess that makes sense that with CPDLC being
available, that's what you would use over whatever oceanic crossing you're making. So, you're
approaching Antarctica, at what point do you switch over to communicating with Troll directly?
[0:20:46] OL: So, the flight is about five hours, and as you fly in over the continent, you start
doing the broadcast. It's a blind broadcast, similar to what we use over Africa and so many parts
of the world, so that if there are other aircraft in the area, then they would know that you're
around.
Leaving the flight level is a free text message to Johannesburg saying, “Hello there, we're
starting our descent now.” There's very little traffic in the area. So, they follow you, it is their
airspace. But once you start descending, you're sort of on your own. About 40 minutes prior to
arrival, you can reach Troll Station. There are two radios here. There's troll station and troll the
airfield. So, the station is the polar station, and they have a much better antenna and much
better range. They provide us with the weather, latest weather update. And then as you get
closer, on the same frequency, you're not talking to Troll airfield, which is basically a walkie-
talkie and a Toyota Hilux.
[0:21:46] IP: I actually have the picture of you landing on the runway, and in the foreground is
the gentleman holding the walkie-talkie, standing next to the runway. We received some video
from the Norwegian Polar Institute. Part of that video was the departure as well, where you're
© 2023 AvTalk 11
AVT 244 Transcript
communicating with the – I'll call it the departure controller. But again, it's just him standing on
next to the runway with the walkie-talkie. I found that amusing.
[0:22:12] OL: It's very rare. I mean, it's so different from anything else, that's similar what you
would perhaps do if you fly a Cessna somewhere and land on a small airfield. But I think it's
quite rare that you get – we don't get clear to land. They give us, the runway is clear. But I think
it's quite rare to get runway clear, you may land in a 787, from a guy on a walkie-talkie.
[0:22:32] IP: Exactly. What is the approach briefing like? What are the things that you're
considering? I'm sure a lot of it's the same because the 787s, no matter where you're landing.
But a nice runway is a bit different. So, how does that approach briefing differ?
[0:22:45] OL: From the start of the project, we wanted to make sure that everything that we do
is as close as possible, just like you say, it's a 787, and we want things to be, our procedures to
be as close as possible to what we normally do. That was the starting point and we assume that
even though we keep everything as normal as possible, the fact that we're flying to Antarctica,
there will still be items that are not normal.
So, one thing we did was we ensured that we had some GPS approaches. The Polar Institute
have developed some basic approach procedures, some basic approaches into Troll. We had –
Jefferson is our chart provider, and they created these tailor-made approach charts for us for
runway 27 or runway 09 in troll. Those procedures were then also coded into our FMS. So, just
like an approach into, you select an [inaudible 0:23:38] approach into JFK, you can do the same
thing here. You just select the approach. Then like I said, the briefing is very similar to a normal
briefing. But of course, when you come to the threat and error part of things where you try to
identify the possible threats, and how you're going to mitigate it, that's when things are, you
realize that you're flying to something that is not JFK.
[0:24:00] IP: There's a few differences. But what's it like landing on the [inaudible 0:24:03]? Is it
any different than a normal landing?
[0:24:07] OL: It's a little bit different. So, there are no real edge lights, and there's no approach
lights, and your landing on a cleared strip on the ice. In the weather forecast, we look for, apart
© 2023 AvTalk 12
AVT 244 Transcript
from all the regular stuff with wind and cloud and disability and such. They also report contrast
and horizon. Horizon is important because with a poor horizon, when you get lower, the glacier,
and the sky blur together, and it will be very difficult looking out in a flare, for example, to look
out and see what the horizon is. So, we want to see at least moderate to good horizon before
we even attempt the approach. Actually, before we even decide to depart Cape Town. Contrast
is another one. If you have a low cloud layer and overcast, you don't really get any shadows and
then everything blurs together a little bit.
So, that's different. The other thing that is quite different is that it's a very wide runway. They
clear almost 100 meters or 90 meters, that means the perspective is quite different. Most pilots
know that there's a difference landing on a standard runway, if there's a wider runway, in the
flare, your perspective is different. Same thing if a landing on a more narrow runway, the
perspective is different. That is something to be aware of. It doesn't really make it more difficult,
but it's something to be aware of before the landing.
The landing itself, very similar to a normal landing. The moment you touch down, it looks very
smooth, and the touchdown is very smooth. But the moment you're down, ice is – and
especially ice on a glacier is not as smooth as tarmac. So, there is a bit of vibration after
touchdown.
[0:25:47] IP: You're in Antarctica with a 787 for the first time ever. Is it just, okay, now we turn off
the plane, or do you leave it on? Because you're not on the ground for all that long. I think you
were down there for just a few hours. So, what was that procedure like?
[0:26:01] OL: We spent a lot of time discussing this in risk assessments prior. What we did as
pilots, it's just a small part, of course, ground ops and technical is a big part of this. Again, we
wanted to keep everything as normal ops as possible. One of the items that were discussed in
detail were the reliability of the APU. Fortunately, the 77, the APU on the 77 has a fantastic track
record. I've flown this aircraft for 10 years now, and I don't think I've ever had an APU problem.
But you don't want that APU problem to happen when you're down in Antarctica, because you
need the APU to start the engines. They have ground power units, but they aren't really strong
enough for a 787.
© 2023 AvTalk 13
AVT 244 Transcript
So, we packed it off, the runway, came to a parking, we shut down our engines, and we left the
APU running. And the APU performed great as expected. But we did have a spare kit with us.
So, we had two engineers, and those engineers, they had brought with them what we call a
flyaway kit. That flyaway kit had APU controllers and various APU spare parts in case there had
been some issues with that APU.
[0:27:08] IP: Interesting. Then, you've unloaded using Volvo frontend loader, which I absolutely
find fascinating how you deal with cargo. Because that that was one of the questions we got, is
like how do you get the cargo off the plane? Because obviously, they don't have cargo loaders
or anything like that. And you just use a Volvo frontend loader. So, then you're all buttoned up.
And what's the departure like?
[0:27:31] OL: So just briefly on that front loader, because it's quite interesting. Our head of
ground ops, when he first heard of it, he was like, “Absolutely not. You're not taking that front
loader next to my aircraft.” For a good reason. There is quite a bit of risk involved with that. But
here is where the Polar Institute is so great. So, we said, if we're going to offload heavy cargo,
because we brought down a radar antenna, for example. That radar antenna. It was very heavy.
It was about 450 kilos, about 1,000 pounds. And in order to get it off, we needed to use the front
loader.
So, in order for them to use it safely, they needed a carefully crafted procedure, and they also
built a special platform that was attached to that front loader. So, at no point did the front loader
actually move into the aircraft. They just parked it in front, and they were able to roll off the crate
with a radar antenna. Yes, that's a completely different story. But it was fascinating as a pilot to
see that part of the operation, how detailed they had that procedure.
[0:28:31] IP: So then, you've got the doors closed, you're ready to start the engines. How does
that work? Is it any different than just, “Okay, it's time to go?”
[0:28:38] OL: It was a bit different. We work closely with Boeing on this project and there are
some minimum oil temperatures that you want to see before – when you start up, the oil is cold
and then after it takes a few turns in the engine and it starts warming up. But they recommend
that a warm-up of 18 minutes, which is something that we normally don't really do. We start our
© 2023 AvTalk 14
AVT 244 Transcript
engines and we waited for 18 minutes. We started taxiing out after about 10 minutes. But in
general, very much like a normal departure, you have to be careful when you taxi. It's a little bit
slippery, but not too bad. The braking action on an ice runway surprisingly, the way to prepare it
is very similar to that of wet tarmac. So, you've got braking action, good, almost.
[0:29:23] IP: That's fascinating. I didn't think about this and because I've never taxied an
airplane on ice, but I guess it makes sense that the taxiing is a little bit slippery.
[0:29:35] OL: Especially, in [inaudible 0:29:36].
[0:29:36] IP: So, your takeoff is normal. Then, how do you get back to Cape Town? Do you just
kind of pop up on Johannesburg Oceanic and say, “We're back.” And they say great. And then
it's just a normal flight into Cape Town?
[0:29:49] OL: More or less, yes. There's an interesting point here as well which is also
extremely rare for a 787 but quite normal if you fly a Cessna in the backcountry. And that is after
landing, we had to make sure that they closed our flight plan. And this is when you fly a Cessna,
it’s quite common. You land in a small field somewhere, if you got flight following, you want to
make sure that the flight plan is closed because that way they know you're safely on the ground.
That's the exact same thing we had here. We landed in Troll, then we have to make sure that
everyone knew that we have safely landed, because there is no normal air traffic control in Troll.
The same thing that goes on departure. We depart and they activate the flight plan for us over
the phone. The station calls to Johannesburg, and they activate the flight plan. The moment
we're airborne, we connect back to CPDLC. If the CPDLC connects, that means that flight plan
has been activated. If it does not connect, it means that they are still working on activating the
flight plan. At some point, you call up again to do a radio check on HF, and from that moment
on, it's like a normal arrival into Cape Town.
[0:30:57] IP: Fascinating. I've really enjoyed learning about this, because there's been some
questions that I've had for quite some time, just in general about flying to Troll, and then to be
able to talk about those with the captain of the first 787 flight landing in Antarctica. That was
very exciting for me. So, Captain Olov Lindstrom, who is the fleet chief pilot of Norse Atlantic
© 2023 AvTalk 15
AVT 244 Transcript
Airways, commanded the first 787 flight to land in Antarctica, and on any ice runway that we
believe. So very, very good to speak with you. Thank you so much for joining us.
[0:31:27] OL: Thank you so much. It was great to be here.
[0:31:29] IP: Thank you so much for joining us.
[0:31:31] OL: Thank you so much. It was great to be here.
[OUTRO]
[0:31:38] IP: Welcome back. Jason, I know you never ever listen to the podcast itself. But
perhaps I can suggest you listen to this particular interview that our listeners just heard,
because I thought that it was absolutely fascinating. And I thought that Olov was very generous
with both his time and his knowledge. So, thank you to Olov for that. And I hope everyone else
enjoyed it. I mean, it answered a bunch of questions I had about like, how do you do this? I
mean, because there are so many different things. The funny thing is like, what are the alternate
airports? We either go back or land where we were going.
[0:32:12] JR: Those are your options.
[0:32:13] IP: Those are the alternates.
[0:32:14] JR: Yes. And then hey, this is something I don't think Norwegian ever did. So, that is
just one more way. Norse is not Norwegian.
[0:32:22] IP: Norse is not Norwegian. Getting better all the time. We've got some news that's
worth sharing beyond what we've already talked about this week. Atlas Air has ordered two
triple 777Fs. The interesting part about that is not that they've ordered the aircraft because sure,
why not. But they're going to have them delivered next year. And all of the delivery – not all
deliveries, because obviously they just started two. But most of the deliveries of dedicated
faders that we've seen for upcoming – soon delivery sites have either been deferred, or
© 2023 AvTalk 16
AVT 244 Transcript
canceled outright. So, it's interesting to see Atlas saying, “No, we'll take two of those freighters,
and we want them by the second half of next year.”
[0:33:06] JR: All right. Not the greatest the circumstances in the rest of the freight industry right
now. But if they want them, they can have them.
[0:33:12] IP: I'm sure Boeing is thrilled. So, two more things that I wanted to flag this week. For
our listeners, COMAC is going the Airbus route as far as its planes go. It's going to go take the
C919 and make a C918 and a 920. I don't know what they're going to call them yet. But they're
going to shrink it and stretch it. So, you'll have the – I suppose the [inaudible 0:33:37] with just
different names. But yes, so the narrow-body competition kind of increases. I mean, China is a
big operator. Chinese airlines are big operators of hot and or high aircraft. I mean, so shrinking
the C919 and making that akin to a 737-700 or an E319, not a bad idea.
[0:34:03] JR: Yes. It would seem odd to shrink the C919 since the MAC 7 is the worst-selling of
the MAC’s family, southwest really alone keeping that one alive. And then the A319neo, I think
the only orders for those are either the private variant of it or Chinese airlines. I think, Tibet
Airlines might have a few of them, and I think one of the other mainline Chinese airlines also
has the 319neo for those hot and high situations. So, it makes sense. It's just an odd thing that
didn't really think you would shorten that particular airframe, lengthening it. Yes, that makes a
ton of sense, and A321 competitor makes all the sense in the world. But shrinking it, that's going
to be a fun one.
[0:34:48] IP: Yes. So, the shortened version will be called the plateau version, as we've alluded
to, in hot and high operations are mostly high-altitude operations in Tibet. We will see 140
passengers in a two-class configuration. And then the stretched version will go 210 passengers
into class. So, think A321neo competition.
[0:35:11] JR: Not quite an A321, since I think those go up to 242 passengers or something like
that. So, I'm getting close. But Airbus still holds that title of how many people can you cram into
a single-aisle aircraft.
© 2023 AvTalk 17
AVT 244 Transcript
[0:35:27] IP: We have yet to reach the limit. Then, finally, something worth noting, but not really
anything to act on at this point, just worth I guess, celebrating. Virgin Atlantic operated the first
100% SAF transatlantic commercial airline flight yesterday, the 28th of November. So, this was
tanks full of sustainable aviation fuel across the ocean, first time ever. So, good for them. Still
building. I can't help but feel we're still in the, like early 1920s version of sustainable aviation
fuel. We're just doing these things. They're important to prove that they can be done. But also,
we're just doing these things to still raise awareness, and kind of using this marketing and PR,
more so than –
[0:36:19] JR: Yes, and this wasn't a commercial flight. I don't believe anyone was onboard their
airline –
[0:36:24] IP: Commercial airline flight.
[0:36:27] JR: There you go, yes. It's very much like, “Hey, we know this stuff works. It's going to
be fine. But you got to put it through its paces, and really, really cross your Ts, dot your Is, and
make sure there's nothing unexpected coming up with SAF.” But yes, there's still, we've talked
about these many times different types of SAF. So, do they have to put every type of, I guess,
final production version of SAF?
[0:36:55] IP: That’s a great question.
[0:36:56] JR: Yes. We should talk to someone about that, again.
[0:36:59] IP: We should talk to somebody about that again. The best quote I saw was,
somebody on Twitter said, “The entire eastern seaboard is about to smell like a chip shop.”
[0:37:09] JR: I mean, there's worse things, right?
[0:37:10] IP: There are. There are worse things. Yes, I mean, that's the question, I guess, is
what does the exhaust of waste oil smell like?
[0:37:18] JR: That is not a question I expected to hear today.
© 2023 AvTalk 18
AVT 244 Transcript
[0:37:20] IP: I mean, I'm full of surprises right here.
[0:37:23] JR: Okay.
[0:37:23] IP: All right. Well, Jason, what time is it where you are?
[0:37:30] JR: 11.11pm.
[0:37:32] IP: So, it's time for you to get to bed, and I will let you go ahead and do that. We will
not be back next week with a regular episode. We'll be back next week with an even more
special episode, since Jason's traveling now, he's not traveling to Stockholm, sadly, next week
with me. But I will be in Stockholm. And next week's episode will be a very interesting one
because I will be sitting down with Flightradar24 co-founders, Mikael Robertsson and Olov
Lindberg, and we're going to chat about the origins of Flightradar 24, where it's been and where
we're headed. So, I think that'll be a very interesting conversation and I hope you tune in next
week.
This has been episode 244 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik here, as always, with –
[0:38:20] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Thanks for listening.
[END]
© 2023 AvTalk 19