Scream with Joan Ford

00:00:00
Speaker 1: On the beck Dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dronte Jamie Loftus, and we talk about the portrayal women in movie, but mostly on this podcast. Actually that's maybe maybe it's an even split at this point. Yeah. We're always texting each other being like, hey, did you see this movie? What you think? And usually I'm like I didn't see it, and then you're like, okay, let's hang out. Yeah that's fun. That's a nice little friendship. Yeah, it's really really wonderful. That's good. Um, So we use the Bechdel Test, a test evented by cartoonist Ales and Betel. So we use the Bechtel dost is jumping off point to take a look at some of your favorite movies. Our definition of that is uh scene in a piece of media must include two female identifying characters with names who talk about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue. I think it would be easy, you would think, and yet you would be interesting is to like crunch like one of those A FI lists or something, and figure out how many of those movies actually uh it's like or less. That seems reasonable. Yeah. I also there was something someone tweeted us this morning. When then we'll get into the episodic promise. But someone who just listened to our bendit like Beckham episode, and they tweeted this stray thought that's really been haunting me, which is like, what a season to be haunted? Hated? Okay, but he tweeted at us that he could think, off the top of his head more sports movies that starred animals than started human women. Yeah. I think we talked about that in that episode. Maybe he's just quoting us, maybe we're geniuses. But I was like, oh my god, he's so smart. Maybe we're so smart, right, because we talked about like air Bud and then various air Bud spin off. My favorite m v P Most Valuable Primate, Yes, the Hockey movie. I love that one. Oh god, you I mean you say that and then you're like, but I do want to see a monkey play a goalie. So I guess we just need more movies with women and more movies with animals and less movies with men. That's what I meant. Yes anyways, and speaking of, you know, being horrified at the representation of women in film, Yeah, yeah, where you go with this? Let's go shopping is what I was going to suggesting. So, yes, let us talk about the movie we're here to talk about today, But first, why don't we introduce our guests. She is a writer on ThunderCats Roar on Cartoon Network, also a writer on Yapadaba Dinosaurs on Boomerang, and performs regularly at U C b l A. Joan Ford say next year, all those shows will out next year. Yeah, so be on the lookout. Don't stop looking out, never stop your TV two into Cartoon Network, your day and your perch, your little crow's nest, Titanic, keep your eyes on the horizon for new media. My mom always used to say to me when I was younger, to be alert and aware, which I think both applies to you know specifically and only that, But she was also like, you know, stay safe, be aware of your surroundings, and be alert, which applies to horror movies too. Yeah, you're like, you've got nineteen different Segways and loaded today. There it's my segway of life. You're like Paul because you love segways. Oh, because they should come up with a new Paul Blart where he gets into birds. Oh god, the Pratt Falls Paul Blart would do off a bird scooter. I tell you not to encourage more movies starring Kevin James. Right, although maybe it's time for like a female Paul Art. Maybe it's time to gender gender swap. That franchise is. Yeah, kind of unbelievable that we're the first person to think of that. I feel like a high school that's already was like a high school. There's YouTube video what if PAULA Blart? And so wait, what's the movie today? Well, speaking of strong female protagonists, we're talking about Scream, the first one directed by Wes Anderson from nineteen nine six No Wake. What did I say that Anderson is someone has made that YouTube video Wes Anderson screen and a lot of very center of frame murders. Yeah. I really literally looking at the name Craven right in front of me, and I still said West Anderson. Okay, to be fair, it's a silly last name. Yeah, that a horror master should be so Craven, that's it's yeah. There was already a fake trailer of Paula Blart released where Melissa McCarthy, you know, someone got there where the time McCarthy was a pass if you can believe. Okay, so we're what we are talking about is Scream, directed by Wes Craven. Craven, Joan, what is your history your relationship with this movie? Oh my gosh, well, um, are you talking about this? Because I'm going to date myself. But I was very much like the target audience for this movie when it came out. I was this actually came out on the weekend of my like sixteenth birthday. Okay, so can I take us all back to like Winter? So I don't know if like people realize this now, especially if they kind of like came up like after the movie. But like it wasn't just that like Scream was like not expect to do well. It was like expected to like bomb, like they buried that movie because that Winter, like it came out the same weekend that like all these big Christmas movies came out, like Mars Attacks and Jerry McGuire and he was about how do America and like all those movies, we're just gonna like bury scream. In fact, I remember it didn't even come to like the main theater in my town. It opened in the like three dollar cheap theater because they just expected a bomb, and I was like a big horr nerd and I was really excited to see it. But like just I remember that like it opening and no one really thinking now that and then it kind of like slowly like picked up steam to the point that it got screen. It got like it got like moved over, eventually got moved over to the big theater, and that like holiday break, moving into that like first couple of weeks of January in school, like it became this thing that everybody was talking about, everybody was going to see, and like all of a sudden it was cool to like be into horror and like that was it was this very fun like communal thing where like everybody like I want to see it a couple of times in theaters, and like you would always run into people you kind of knew. So yeah, it was just like it was fun and it would it made me feel like, oh, something I like is cool now, because like I said, you know, I was like a kid who grew up like reading fangoria and like writing letters to like horror directors and so yeah, it made me feel like it gave me a little bit of a community, and like for the rest of my high school I had like horror friends because of that. Like I remember going to the Bride of Chucky with the cool kids after that. Yeah, because the cool kids were seeing Bride of screen made it okay, go see Bride of Chucky excellent. I was also, yeah, like you were. I was really surprised to see this movie came out during the Christmas season, because you would think it would be for sure in October at least. That's so you can't kill Scream. You can't. And I would say, if I was looking at and knew nothing about this movie, and I hadn't already heard so many amazing things about it, if I saw the Villain, I'd be like, probably this movie sucks. If I saw it like the Mask, this is this is a goof this is a goofy one. But I've my history with this movie is of course I watched it this morning, Yes, and before that, I just I knew I loved Matthew Lillard and I was like, let's roll the diet says Lillard's number one fan, because I'll watch any Lillard joint and I will say spoilers for everyone listening. I was still on Caitlin when I hunt in today that you know, like, for me, it seemed so clear because Lillard did not die right away because he's such a DUFs that he was involved, because when when it gets to be the forty five minute mark, You're like, Lillard, what is he? So? Anyways, and and Lillard and Nev Campbell were dating on the set of screen. Wait what I know? I hate it too. I mean Lillard, what a lucky guy. Yeah, what a what a reach? But you know he went for it and it worked out good for him. I guess, is this this that the Courtney Cox and David or Cutt meet Onlieve? So yeah, wow, this is a this is a hot set. Yeah, everyone's fucking momentary. Yeah yeah. So my history with this movie is I did not see any of the movies in these Dream franchise until I think two thousand eleven before the fourth one came out. So my friend j T, friend of the cast Twilight episode is a big scream head and he was like, look, we're gonna go see Scream four and you have to prepare. So we like sat down and had a little Scream marathon. So I didn't watch any of them until then, and I was like, these are fun, this is great. Uh. And then I just rewatched all four again in preparation of this episode, and I like these movies even more now. I'm like, these are so freaking fun. They're so fun. Yeah, I'm still stuff to talk about that. My first horror franchise or slashy franchise that I really loved was Final Destination. But I'm pretty sure Final Destination came out on the success of movies Scream, right, that's post Scream. I think that I want to say that was two thousand. Yeah, so yeah, there's that whole wait. Like horror was really kind of like dead as a genre before Scream, Like there was this like after kind of like the early nineties, Corror kind of went away after like the like Jason Freddie Chucky Boom. Yeah, like everyone thought for it was dead, even like Wes Craven was coming off of like a string of flops. That's everyone's so surprised, and Scream hit so big people were ready, yeah, ready for hor to be reinvented. Did you see all the Harry I'm going to just keep bringing up Matthew Lillard this whole thing. Did you see the Matthew Lillard cameos and screams two and four? I did see that on IMDb, Yes, I did. I don't know about this. Where what? Where? Where do I look to see Matthew Lard and screams to and four crowd scenes? It seems like, Okay, he's just available as the scream to the only thing that Matthew Lillard did in the year seven. He played Guy at Party uncredited. Uh, go forward a little bit to scream for Guy at Stabathon uncredited. Okay, so you know he's now Lillard as the only person I think in the world living solely on a Scooby Doo based income. You know, I think, you know he's just around. At the time, he was good in um the Twin Peaks Revival. Actually yeah, I was like, I'm feeling something from Matthew Liard. I don't know if I like that I'm empathizing with him. That's not good, right, That is something like maybe it's time to go on vacation yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember when he was on The Good Wife. I lost my mind. Anyways, right, he was great. He is good. Okay, So now one last thing I wanted to say is while it took me a while to see the screen movies, I did see all of the Scary movie movies. They were first. Yeah, so the first Scary Movie is closely a parody of the first screen movie. Uh. And I also rewatched like the first half of that also to prepare for this episode, just because see that, just in case something came up. And it is the worst movie in the world. It's like the jokes that it relies on are just a series of the most problematic jokes in the world. It's just it's trash. It's horrible. But I did see those and most familiar with That's why I sort of watched Scream before I actually saw a Scream. Yeah, you got the narrative of Scream before you saw a Scream, because it is like that is from just this generation of parody movies where it's like, you don't build another story, You're just like, let's tell the other story. This movie already did, but with more homophobic jokes exactly. It's so those movies are so bizarya because there's no there's no attempt at commentary on anything. They're like, hey, look at, look at, look at let's just beat up the woman in every scene, and that's funny. What if they did this in the movie, you like, what if the Juno got eaten by Alvin and the chipmunkst Oh my god, wait wait, I forget which one in one of those movie movies. They're all a blur, but there's death like one where Alvin and the Chipmunks turned into zombies because it was probably are also around like dawn at the dead time and they heed, you know, god, that's very late, ots upsetting. There is a great video of Ellen Page watching that scene and like losing her fucking mind. It's very fun. So shall I do the recap? Yes? Okay, so Scream. We opened on a teenager named Casey Becker played by Drew Berry more middle part. Drew who was originally going to play Sydney interesting but then sketching conflicts didn't allow it think a smaller role. But I think that was actually better for her. I agree, great, I assumed when I saw that scene, I was like, oh, they could only get Drew for three days. Yeah, yess. She she liked was an early champion. In the script, she wanted to do it. So she's at home, she's getting ready to watch a scary movie and then she gets a fun call from an unknown caller who is asking her about scary movies, and so situation escalates. He's like harassing her. This masked figure shows up and ends up killing her and her boyfriend Steve Steve Jock Steve. Yeah, he's a big guy, but not a big enoun not big enough to not get murdered. Um. And then we meet Sydney Prescott that is Nev Campbell's character, and she's a classmate of Casey's. And then we meet a couple of Sydney's friends. Among them are her boyfriend Billy played by Skeet old Rich rears his little head again, keats back on the cast. What was he in? H he was in what we've done? Um? What the credit of the craft? So that was our last Skeat discussion every October. Skeet comes out. We meet her friend Tatum played by Rose McGowan. Tatum's boyfriend stew which is Lillard, and then their other friend Randy, news of k he's murderer, gets spread around, and we also learned that Sydney's mom was murdered a year earlier. Also, I know, I mean whatever, Billy and Lillard did it. But in the first scene, you're like, Lillard's not showing really any empathy towards anyone. I'm like, it's two of the obvious choice. He was onto him for a moment. One he was like, yeah, yeah, I hooked up with that woman who just died brutally a couple of times. I don't freaking care. And they're like, what's your alibi? Dude? He's like, I was fucking It. Was like, are you serious right now? Lillard? Such poor taste. Yeah, murdered Lillard. Okay, So let me meet a compet, a sheriff's deputy named Dewey played by David Arquette, and he's also Tatum's brother. He's investigating. And then there's a nosey reporter, Gail weathers Um that's Courtney Cox's character. She's trying to get the scoop on this story. Somebody good outfit. This has the best name characters, and like, like horror franchise, I think I remember, It's like I will remember the name Sydney Prescott, Gayl Weathers and like Cotton Weary to like the Day I Die. They're just such great like horror movie names. Weary is the most insane name, and I just I love it. Also such an insane character, but it's like you're supposed to care about this guy you never see once in the actual movie. But he plays a much more prominent role in Scream Too. Yes, I was told skip to see three. Oh I disagree. I think two is more fun than three. Wow, And Scream four is also romp. So depends on where the al right, it depends on where you stand. On jan Silent Bob came. I mean, well I was able to weather them into grassy, but they took over a season. You did not know that. Oh it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. Apparently Kevin Smith wanted to direct some episodes, but they're like, you can't because you're a Canadian. He's like, okay, can I just like start an entire arc? And they let him do that, right, And there's still like all the teenage like they're still like girls struggling like with their teen pregnancies. But also Jay and Silent Bob are there. It's very weird. H Kevin Kevin, okay, Lord. So then Sydney gets a call from the killer and he is threatening her. Mr scream ms, Mr scream, And a moment later, her boyfriend Billy shows up and a cell phone drops out of his pocket. Oh. It's also worth noting that Sydney is a virgin. She is dealing with the grief and trauma of her mom dying. She has an underpant's role. She has an underpant's role. Billy's like, come on, do some sex stuff with me, and she's like, no, you know about my rule and he's like okay. So Billy shows up right after she gets this call and a cellphone dropped out of his pocket, and it seems like maybe he's the killer. So she's like, oh no, and he gets arrested because this was a period of time when you having a cell phone and a killer, to having a cell phone was enough evidence to like length like many people with cell phone, he must be the killer. She turns on him so fast, like cell phone, you're the murderer, right, And that that like kept me off Billy's trail for a while. It's like she is she is loyal to know she jumped into conclusion so fast. Imagine being a danger of being like, no, arrest my boyfriend for having a cell phone, except in this movie they call them cellulars. It's just like you hear the word cellular like eighteen different times to recall it a celly, remember that call me? But I only have twelve minutes, so make it great. God, yeah, you'd just be cut off in the middle of a brilliant thought of your celly. So Billy's in jail, but Sydney gets another call from the killer, so it can't be Billie scream again. Mr Screen calls and he's like, you got the wrong guy. And then we learned Sydney had testified against this guy, Cotton Weary, who was convicted of killing Sydney's mom. And then Gayle snooping around. She's trying to get her story um and sending her outfits hair outfits, lots of like streaky like blonde highlights. The local news look is on full display, and Sydney hates Gail for like exploiting her mom's murder for a book deal, and you know Gail, She's trying to get closer to Dewey to like get information, and you know, they're they're like, you're cute. Also important to note, I think, is that like she doesn't think Cotton did it. She thinks he's been falsely identified. Yeah, and Sydney said an innocent man to jail, right, which we maybe have seen her did twice now, right, So and maybe Gail's onto something. So then the principle of their school gets murdered and people are speculating who the killer might be. And Randy, their friend, is this like horror movie buff and he's like, you know, okay, it's got to be by the way, King, Jamie Kennedy. That's Jamie Kennedy. Yes, how did I not know? If Lillard weren't already in this movie, that would be my central focus. But it is. It is Jamie Kennedy of of the Experiment Um and your arch nemesis, my arch nemesis. Because I'm going to marry into the Kennedy's and I'll be Jamie, I'll be v Jamie Kennedy. So but yes, Jamie Kennedy. Okay, he's good to know. Stars are out in this movie. So then the police trace the calls that were made from the killer to Sydney's dad's cellular and they can't find him, so like, oh no, Sydney's dad is the killer. And then stu throws a party, some people get killed, including Tatum in the garage door in a very brutal scene. Never go to Lillard's house. Also very strong garage door. Like I feel like if I like every garage I've ever seen, like breaks at like the drop of a pin and it's just be able to lift a full person like smash her head into. Also like my garage door is a week but also has enough of a sensor that it wouldn't it wouldn't it would just be like, oh, it would start to slowly rise up. Yeah, a little tidbit at that. I like, is that apparently I think they did need a stunt double because like Rose McGowen was actually been enough that she could get through the doggy door. So the rest of the story, they're at Stuice party, people are getting killed. Billy and Sydney finally have sex and then afterwards she's like, wait a minute, I think you still might be the killer and he's like, what do I have to do to prove that I'm not? And then he gets stabbed by the killer, and then the killer is going after Sydney and the high level prank. At this point, I'm like, you're getting stabbed over your own weird because moments later we find out that it was just you know, the blood that we see was just corn syrup, the same as using Carrie, and he is in on it. So the killers are revealed to be Stu and Billy. Yeah, Lillard, I like, you know, he's he never has narrative consequence, right, I was like, probably they gave for him. Yeah, all right. So they're like telling their whole plan and the whole you know, backstory to Sydney and they're the ones who killed her mom. It wasn't cotton weary after all right, and you know they planned to kill her and frame her dad. But then she's like, no, not on my watch, and she throws a TV onto Stew's head, and then Gail comes in and shoots Billy. Good Bye. Ski. Something that always bothered me about the ending is that an important part of Skeet and Lillard's plan is that they they're gonna like stab each other to like mayself like them look selves look like victims. But they do that in the middle of the plan, and it's like wait until, like you've gotten everything else done, then stab each other. Don't do it? Like that's not step like two that step, Like, yeah, they're not so bright. Yeah, if only they could do a second pass at that. They should they should have workshop de yeah, and they should have taken it to they should have gone to a local jail, run it by an actual murderer. Like, so, if you could do it over and get away with it, what would you do different? Yeah, because yeah, like most murders involved, you're stabbing yourself, look like a victim. Do your homework. Yeah. And then there's, you know, a running theme throughout the movie because they're watching Halloween and the different things that are happening in slasher movies are sort of informing what's Yeah. So the two bad guys die at the end, Sydney emerges triumphant, and that is the end of the movie. So let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back. All right, we're back. Yeah, I was waiting, Sorry for the break took so long. I was waiting for Matthew Lillard. He's my assistant now, yeah, and I was waiting for him to bring me my soup, and I was on the phone room He's screaming, Allard, where's my soup. This is a joke that's just for me, and I enjoy it anyways, Scream, welcome back, there we are. Yeah, as we mentioned, this is like a super meta slasher movie that spends a lot of time like calling attention to the tropes of popular horror movies, and like the characters of Scream keep alluding to the fact that their situation is just like a horror movie, right, and then like as the Scream sequels go, this happens more and more they get even more meta. There's even more references. They're making movies about the events of the first movie, Like everybody from the first movie is brought on as creative consultant. Yeah. There. It seems like in general, and I'm not like a horror buff, I've seen just the basics. It seems like it's a very self referential genre in general. Where like this movie and we just recorded our Halloween episode yesterday. This movie clearly pulls from Halloween very heavily. But even in Halloween in the late seventies, they're watching horror movies from like the forties and fifties. I don't know. I mean, I think it helps to acknowledge that you have horror movies taking place in a world where people know horror movie conventions. And I don't know, I think I especially liked it and Scream because there it's all over the place, right. For example, one of the things that happens is that the movie cause attention to different like kind of frustrating choices of the characters will make in horror movies where in the beginning, I think Sydney is talking on the phone to the killer and she's like, I don't watch scary movies. It's all the same thing. Some stupid killer is talking a big breasted girl who can't act, who is always running up the stairs when she should be running out the front door, and then moments later circumstances which she runs up the stairs. So it's like clever, funny things like that that I enjoy. And then like the Randy character, who is a horror buff, is like always rattling off like these are the rules like here the troupes like that. Even at the beginning, I think, like Drew Barry Morris has that line about you know, it's always they are always casting people who are way too old for these parts, and the joke is that Drew Barrymore is like way too old, but there's only twenty one at the time. Yeah, like I styled her to look older. Yeah, I think they, but like it's like, god damn it, like Matthew Broderick got to play Ferris Bueller on even twenty four. I don't think, like, yeah, yeah, I mean it's weird because there's sometimes when movies are too referential that rubs me the wrong way, and then you get into like Shrek territory of like so referencing that without the references there is no substance. But I don't know, I don't think this movie toes that line very well. Yeah, I find like a little distracting at the beginning when it's like everybody's talking in movie metaphors. It's like the cool boyfriend is like our relationships at PG thirteen. I don't want to take it to like awe, and it's like it's also he says our relationship was an R and I want to take an n C seventeen. But it's like, what's not happening in an R rated movie that you that like I'm pretty sure you can have sex an R rate and movie, right, And like, I just want to do some freaky ship Like is that what you're saying? Yeah, some like Italian museum fucking movie. I can't. There is a movie with Italian movie where n C seventeen where the museum I can't. It's called Oh, I would like to know the name of that movie. And then what he's like, oh, we can't. We now it's like edited for CBS Tuesday at seven. I was like, whoa, you're seventeen. And then at the end of the Campbell is like, would you settle for a PG thirteen rating? And he's like, what's that? And she flashes them and it's like you can show breasts in a PG thirteen movie that they're all over the place on their rate. Really, you've never seen Titanic. That's that's like artful. Yeah, you can get away over it if it's art oil painting, breasts, so many rules. So in the movie there's direct references to Halloween. For example, Drew Barrymore's character mentions that Halloween is her favorite scary movie. Um, whenever the parents show up to that house and they're finding that you know something is amiss. Her dad is like, go to the Mackenzie's house and call the police. That's the same family that Laurie Strode and Halloween tells the kids to go to. That's even Oh and then there's that scene where Skeet and And and Nev Campbell are making out that Blue Oyster Cult song from Halloween's playing too, and Billy's last name is Loomis and Loomis is the last name of the psychiatrist and Halloween that Tatum comments, this is just like a West Carpenter film, which is the run Wes Craven and Carpenter. What she meant was Wes Anderson, of course. Yeah. And then later in the movie they are watching Halloween and kind of picking apart the different trips. So I just kind of wanted to do a little compare and contrast of the two movies, especially because we just covered Halloween a little exercise. So like in the Halloween episode, we kind of broke down. Okay, here the women who were being attacked and brutalized versus like not nearly as many men. However, in Scream we see still a lot of women get attacked and killed, but so do way more men. I feel like, yeah, it's like more than parody in that. Yeah, I was. It's it's about split down the middle because we see Casey Becker get chased, stabbed and then gutted, and then Steve, her boyfriend, also is gutted. We see Sydney get attacked multiple times. We see Tatum get killed by the garage door, but we see Dewey he gets stabbed in the back toward the end, Um Kenny, the camera guy, gets his throat slashed. Gail Weathers. I don't does she even get attacked or is it just that she crashes the van? She crashes and then she I think she gets attacked towards the end when she that first one where she has the safety on the gun and he's like right and they hit her and stuff. Yeah, I don't know if she ever gets stabbed, but yeah she is. She gets you know, scuffed up a bit. Randy gets shot, and then Stu and Billy stab each other. But that's all part of the plan. That's But so yeah, it's about and we can't leave out principal Henry Binklair, right, So maybe even it's it's more men getting what a treat I know he's in and out. He was fun and now he's the principal. And then about ten years later he pops up in holes and you like what, Oh, yes, the Dad Stanley Yellnet the third or something play Shining aboves Dad. So good anyways. Um, But I would say, even though there is more gender parody of people getting attacked and scream, I would say, as far as on screen violence, the attacks on women are more extended, they are more more brutal. Yeah, because well even what you were just describing, like, yes, David Arquette gets a knife to the back, but that's not as bad as being squeezed, you know, like I mean. And then the whole opening scene is Drew Barrymore's character for a good five minutes is being verbally harassed, chased, stabbed, dragged across the ground. Um. And then all we see of the boyfriend is that he's tied up briefly, and then it cuts to the aftermath of him being gutted. So it's way more brutal when it's when it comes to violence against women. And I bet if we're if we're clocking how long. Yeah, Like you're saying, like those scenes are way longer. Um, And it might be worth noting the in that opening scene where we see the boyfriend tied up and kind of like used as sort of leverage or like usually it's a woman tied up in an action movie or superhero movie. We got Steve so but it's the line that drew He's he was like, oh yeah, yeah, that that first scene. I mean, there's so much to unpack in that first scene alone, where it's one of those movies where, you know, because it does come down to the last girl still essentially in Sydney's you know, the last girl and we're just triumphant whatever that trope, which which kind of like our guest April Wolf was saying on the Halloween episode, there's a lot of different ways to look at the last girl trope. Um, but that is upheld in this movie. Uh but in the first scene. There were moments in this movie where it was hard for me to figure out. I don't know like how the writing felt about some of That's female characters that weren't Sydney, because a lot of them come off as a little dumb, a little thrill. Yeah, yeah, I do think there's some I don't know if if Williamson like extends this to all his female characters. But I think there is some fun or interesting like setting up expectations that you would come to expect from having watched a lot of horror movies that he kind of undercuts. Like Gail Weathers is a percent set up as like as a victim, like she's like fucking with our main character. She's just like she kind of played as this like snoopy like bitch who's just like getting in the way, and like you kind of like expect her to get it. And and I would say this is a movie where I might say this is actually has two final girls, because I think Gail kind of fits that at least with her character. I don't know if i'd say that's the same for like Tatum, but like for her, like they're building up these expectations so they can kind of like under custom for them. Yeah, the Gail character is I mean, Gil and Sydney are both extremely smart and and capable, and I mean the movie doesn't do like you're saying, that doesn't the movie doesn't do that much to undercut their abilities. Even when they're wrong. It's not being positioned that they're stupid. It's just there's a lot going on and there's a stabby plan that no one could have guessed. Yeah, but but there are like Casey and and Tatum are a little bit trickier in in that way, which is, you know, I'm not even saying every woman that appears on screen and every movie has to be really smart. That is unrealistic and at some point gets boring. But that that first scene is so long and the like phone over the phone coercion, which like was making me squirm a little bit of like like don't tell him your home alone? What are you? And then telling a story You're like, oh, I'm I'm making popcorn and I'm going to watch a movie. Is like what are you doing? And they're what I could relate with in that scene is confusing Freddie Jason and Michael Myers because I would That's I would have died there too. Imagine just like failing a busfeed being murdered. Movie trivia is like the one thing that I am good at in my entire life, So I would have been like boom boom boom. Yeah, I would. I would fail. Although we did great at kill we won anyway. Anyway, It's quick Bracken. Another thing when you if you're comparing Halloween and Scream, for example, and Halloween, there are a lot of women in the cast, but they weren't really driving the narrative. They were basically just kind of reacting to what the killer was doing, and their main goal was survival essentially, and only one of them gets to achieve that goal, which is Laurie Strode. And Scream, however, there's a few elements that are introduced that allow female characters to be more active. One, uh, the identity of the killer as a mystery, unlike Halloween were like we know right off the at that it's Michael Myers and there's no ambiguity there. So in Scream, the women are trying to figure out who the killer is, um mostly Gail because she's you know, she's trying to like crack the you know, get the scoop. But then also because Sydney keeps being attacked and called and harassed by the killer and she's like, what who is this? I? You know, I want to know? And that Gail has alternative theories of like she's really thought about she's positioned like you you're Sajan is as like kind of a flighty local reporter. But she's done some investigation and is good at her job and seems to be getting closer than I mean, unfortunately our girls, Sydney keeps kind of fumbling it until yeah, until after she has sex with and then like the then like the clues click after she said, which is a killer, which is a really interesting subversion to the tropes of slasher movie. That's because as soon as she rather than you know, getting murdered, which is what usually happens as soon as a girl has sex in a horror movie. Yeah, like things fall into place for her. It's an interesting I mean, that's that was a subversion where when that happened, I was like huh, like yeah, sometimes it just feels like they're like subversions without actually thinking like what is the implication of this? It's just like subverting it because I'm clever and I can do that math of like, well this usually happens, then this should happen. But it's like, what are we actually saying with this? It's opposed to like doing it because I'm a clever screenwriter, because I was like, is the implication of that? Like okay, so now to be able to solve crimes, you better be fucking like there. There's like there's a lot of different ways, and I was like, I don't know, like it was an interesting subversion and it sounds like at this point that is not something that would normally happen in a horror movie. Yeah, I was like, what exactly was Williamson trying to say with that one? Right? And um, like on this theme, I even't started if I'm jumping end too soon, but I mean I think okay, So like seeing this in theaters in like nineties six, the moment that just like I've rarely been in another theater where like an audience when this crazy was when she's kind of like turned the tables on, when Sydney has turned the tables on the killer and she has that voice box and she's like terrorizing them Like that is so like that is so satisfying and so gratifying. Like the audience erupted when she started started calling them, and it's like at that point she's not just like the protactive protagonist. She is like I don't know, give it's so good because we so rarely see that because again, if we're comparing it to Halloween, Lori Strow just kind of gets away by sheer luck. At best, they're they're like defending themselves and like fighting for their lives. They're not like actively going after the people who have like terrorized in the whole movie, like at least until that point, I think we've seen that a little more. But Scream was kind of a little bit of a invader and partic Yes, and in Halloween, Dr Loomis has to come in and kind of save the day by shooting Michael Myers, whereas in this movie and Scream, Sydney kills one of the bad guys and then Gail kills the other one. So it's two women triumphing another. Like audience going nuts moment when she was like safety is off that time, asshole like erupts. Yeah, it's a good audience. It's a good audience movie. Like you gotta see it with a crowd. I kind of want I'm sure there's public screen because I've around this time of the year. I kind of want to go group. Okay, maybe we shouldn't. Yeah, well, we gotta take another quick break. So let's take a break and figure out the plans for that, and then we'll come right back going back quickly to like the movie, calling attention to tropes, but maybe not necessarily fully understanding the implications of what they're saying, and kind of like not taking it far enough in terms of commentary. For example, towards the end whenever like Randy and the Gang are watching Halloween as Stew's house friends, he's kind of, you know, going through the rules and the tropes, and he's saying, he's like, Jamie Lee was always the virgin in horror movies. That's why she always outsmarted the killer and the big chasing at the end. There's certain rules that one must abide by to successfully survive a horror movie. For instance, Number one, you can never have sex. Sex equals death. Number two, you can't drink or do drugs. Number three never say I'll be right back. Yeah, He's like he's monologueing out in this Staies where there are a few parts of this movie where I'm like, okay, like we're laying it on a bit fit. Yeh. So he's calling attention to these tropes, but I would argue that there's not a whole lot of active commentary being made. Well, I mean kind of like what we were just talking about it's like the people gets to this's like no, but women have that sex before, can escape alive and can have agency. I don't know, I mean, I guess I was just thinking about myself in high school and like, well, where does that leave all the virgins? That used to be the only thing we had was that we could live, and now what we got to work with we got nothing? Yeah, there's I mean in terms of I think this movie came out at a time where starting to acknowledge media tropes in text is becoming trendy, but not necessarily doing much about it because this is like, you know, third wave feminism time. This is squarely in the like girl power. But as we see in this not very diverse movie in terms of race or once again, women's body types, it's like, Okay, there is some level of catharsis and liberation for women, but only a very specific type of women, young, conventionally attractive, white, straight women exactly. Uh. And that I mean I think that that shows up in almost every movie of this era of you also can be a murderer if you look hot and played by the rules. Like there. It's progressive for its time, but it's certainly not. Yeah, and it's a little I would maybe a little disappointing coming from Wes Craven because he had a string of movies before that that are a little more like progressive. The People Under the Stairs, I think, is one of like just like familiar. It's so it's I mean, I'm gonna say all this with a grain of salt because I haven't watched any of these movies in like years, but you know, People Under the Stairs is a horror movie about like gentrification that puts a young black kid at the at the center of the movie. Uh, and it's so good and so freaky and like, um and he actual I think he did a little more interesting stuff with just the idea of like these meta narratives a couple of years before with New Nightmare. Um, but this is kind of all that stuff. I feel like Scream was kind of like dealing with the same stuff as a New Nightmare. I don't want to say dumbed down, but like, you know, for a mass audi broader for a broader audience. Right. And then the screenwriter, Kevin Williamson, I mean kind of builds his his career on and I love a lot of a lot of his work. It's a lot to me where for what else is he does? So he is the force behind Dawson's Creek. Ever heard of the Vampire Diaries, Screams one, two, and four? I know what you did last summer The Faculty, which I think might be like The Faculty might be the one movie from this wave of late nineties horror that I actually like more than the screen. Really I love The Faculty. Well, I've never seen the factor. I don't think it is Elijah Wood, Josh Hart, Josh Hartnett, Yes, Um being new Worth is in it. Stewart is okay. But there is this through line even with like this specific relatively progressive writer's work, where in a lot of these and I'm pulling mainly from Dawson's Creek in early Vampire Diaries, where there's a lot of well written female characters that are making active choices, they're complicated, they have backstories. But again, like in Scream, it's almost across all the work we just mentioned a very specific type of what that this agency is available to um Scream to comments on the lack of diversity in horror movies to some extent, Um and that movie seems to have have made like a more conscious effort in terms of casting to cast more people of color in the movie, but all of those characters are in supporting roles, none of them are really in the main cast. And then that effort to be more inclusive in the sequels after that in Scream three and four just doesn't happen again. I mean, as I remember, Scream To just kind of opens with like like the opening murder is um who it's Jada P. Smith and her boyfriend. I forget who plays your boyfriends? So do I add a screaming of stab, which is the fake franchises in the Scream universe at the book. You get it, but like that, you know, so it's it's, it's. It does very much feel like they're it's like, Okay, we paid lip service to this idea, we're acknowledging it. Now let us get on and make the real movie. Yeah right, yeah, yeah. It feels like certainly more could have been done to acknowledge the lack of diversity in horror movies, certainly in screen the first screame because that does not happen at all, um, And then even when Scream Too, when it does make an attempt it. It kind of just isn't really enough, especially if you're doing meta commentary about the horror genre. I mean, there is like such a kind of, like going back as far as like not a Living Dead, a rich history of using horror as a template to talk about rays that it almost feels negligent, like willfully negligent on the side of the side of these of the people who are making this metal horror film not to like bring that into the conversation, like like even like going back as far as like the Twilight Zone, you know, like horror is a horse has always been used as kind of a platform to talk about like more progressive things because like people like Ron sid only know he said, you could like to al rate talking about this stuff when you bring spooky stuff into the mix. So I don't know, it's frustrating. Yeah, this, I mean this whole a lot a lot of like Clinton era movies for for whatever reason, they are willing to acknowledge the problem, but then also take little to no action to solve it, where it's like, Okay, thank you for bringing it to our attention that you're aware there's a lack of diversity, and then straight up like show white people for three hours. It's just bizarre. Yeah, this falls squarely in that span of years where that's that's happening. It's like the first movie on this podcast that we really started to unpack the kind of like semi empty girl power message of the nineties is Spice World. Ironically, you did that with a man the Meadhouse, right. Yes, she's a biggest fan bet Um right, because that one had just so much kind of like empty quote unquote feminism where it's like you go, girl girl power, but it was like corporate feminism and they's still, you know, subscribe to a lot of the tropes that are regressive toward women. And it became a buzz. It became like, yes, a marketing strategy. It's like it's like a girl power by a pink pullar right camera. And I think to some extent there that is happening now too, And it's like I try to be really like mindful of that when i'm you know, just it's it's a weekend. I'm strolling through let's say the Glendale Galleria my closest mom. They're yeah, I love the Glenda Gallery, and it's just a quick quit A couple of steps, and then you're at the Americana and you're just at another great mall. Park once got two malls, the mall, I love shopping. I got shopping. I got these great French fries at the Americana the other day, anyways, but walking through, like you know, it's because it is such a precarious, strange moment in time where we care about women's issues again, but do we kind of thing. I think that's reflected in marketing so much. We're like even walking through my favorite mall the other day, my favorite in dorm hall across the street from my favorite dormlly perfect perfectly love. There's Apple stores at both ye. Anyways, there's something going to I want to go to the mall. But there is like a concentrated effort right now to play into that especially, and where I find it especially sinister is with empty messages about like body acceptance. There's this I'm thinking of a campaign that Lush is doing right now to sell soap, and it's like, hey, anybody type can use our soap. You're like, yeah, no, ship, it's soap. And then it's like me to the soap, and you're like, fuck, you're me too, Like there. But then but then it's like you go across the then you just like go across them all to like Forever twenty one where they're not selling Like those are the stores that like won't sell clothes into like the extra large sizes because they don't want like big women. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, and you know, that's something ideal with a lot um, But there's a lot of times where this girl power messaging that's happening now feels a little shallow because you don't see it extended to like, you know, extends everywhere. It's pretty exclusionary still, right, and just like capitalizing on a moment while doing nothing to actually support it. I guess I'm just like, yeah, but everyone should check o the Blundell Gallery a great food court, yeah, to like and then there's a little side food card if you go up there. Yeah, guys, take a weekend. It's just one day at the gallery out, one day at the Americana. You're it's you're just have a full weekend. Our friend, our friend calls it was Jared called. Jared calls it like the Paris of California. It's just the Americana. Is hey can afford to go to Paris. Check out the Americana. There's a water fountain in movie and it's already synked up two songs from the Polar Express. Christmas starts early at the Americana. Oh, they go way out of their way. I saw when I was at the Americana. Sorry, one more thing about the Americana. I was I was getting my computer fixed on a Monday, so I was like, oh, it's a quiet time in the Americana. There was an old couple watching the water fountain display and like crying. They thought it was like eleven in the morning. I was like, guys, what are we doing here there? But they were so moved were they by the Americana water displays. They were both crying and hold hants. That's beautiful. I know, like God, well, not to you know, derail this Glendelle Galeria conversation, but kind of we're tying it back to what we had been talking about in terms of like the exclusionary you know, soap is for everybody type and it's like, there is a moment where Courtney Cox fat shames her camera guy. Other than that, I would say there's not as much actively problematic stuff that happens in this movie. Um O, mission, it's a mission. Yeah. And then compare this to the Scream parody of scary movie that, like I said, relies entirely on problematic jokes. So also this movie was supposed to be called scary movie crazy. Also, we would be remiss not to say, you know, it is a Weinstein joint. Yes, it certainly is, and should we I don't know how much it's worth talking about to bring up Rose McGowan, who plays Tatum, that you know, she's been very outspoken about the me Too movement, but she also, you know, says some problematic things that are fairly turfy at times. I think it's important to remember there is no perfect advocate for a movement, and if you're putting all your chips behind one specific advocate, probably not smart thing to do for your chips. Find the movement, not a specific person, but it is unfortunately I mean there and and if I'm recalling correctly, I did a little bit of a little little light goog on the subject, and it appears that the issues with Weinstein and McGowan happened after Scream in nineties seven. Interesting, just just the thing I might be wrong but I don't think. I think that just was those wave of like Dimension and Mirror Max films that they weren't actively involved with. It's just like their names were on everything. Although I do know it was them who decided to change the name from Scary Movie to screen. The only active participation I know they have in the movie got it. I mean, they still got money for it, so I'm not happy. But also a weird, like weird Hollywood reporter story came out as the me too movement was like starting this time last year, and Skeet Ulridge for some reason took it upon himself to be like, yeah, I also knew Harvey one Steam was bad, And like, Skeet, can you sit down for like a second. Don't they need you on set over at Riverdale? Don't you need to play some Fedora asshole? I don't you need to be brooding in a jail cell somewhere, a fake jail cell. Not I'm not advocating sending skates to real jail. Not yet. Show us the receipts and we'll send Skeek to jail. Does anyone have any final thoughts about Scream? I just really enjoyed it. Yeah, there's blind spots, mostly biomission. But I really liked it. Yeah, I love this movie, and I came out it was a lot of fun to revisit it. The one moment I've always loved in the movie is when everyone at the party finds out the Principles and murdered and they're like fuck yeah, and then they like take off to I'm like, what is wrong with these kids? These kids reaction to finding out people are like they're so stoked. It's so they're a heartless. I really want to I really want to see the moment where they get to the like the football field, to see like Principal Henry Winkler like strung up and they just like the gravity of what they're actually doing hits them and they're like right, and oh my god, a person is dead. I thought this is just fun, but a person Principle is dead. I mean he didn't get along with him, but but he doesn't deserve it. Yeah, Jamie, you mentioned this a bit on the Halloween episode where in that movie and in this movie as well, it's clear that the people who are displaying toxic masculinity and you know, other negative quality these it's clear that they are the bad guys because often we find in movies where you know, the hero is also ripe with toxic masculinity, but we're still raped. But um, because in different moments of this movie, we see like Billy emotionally manipulating his girlfriend by being like, you're still upset about your dead mom? You fucking loser. Why don't you just have sex with me already? God? And it's like, oh, okay, so you're you know, abusive and in gaslighting and uh, and then he ends up being the bad guys. So also those when one last thing I wanted to say about Sydney is that like kickstarting stuff with the brutal murder of a woman, and I think they say rape as well. There's issues of Sydney's mom that's in the report. The report yes that I mean both was like a reference to Halloween and just like, boy, we're killing a woman to start the story. But you do see Sydney dealing with that trauma in a way that at least seems for this universe to be relatively honest, and it's not the sort of story where it's like, oh, yeah, we're just throwing this in there to get the story started and it has no actual narrative impact on our main character. So it's happy to see that. And I also, and I mean regards to actually both of what you're saying, especially like the display of understanding and display of toxic salinity. I think a lot of that might have to do with the fact that, like Williamson is a like queer writer, so he's not he's not writing from the inside. He's kind of writing from the outside a little bit when he's dealing with character, and I think maybe he can see them with a little less like hero worship than like, say, a you know, someone who might see themselves in Billy Loomis would right. And I would say overall, in terms of like the character development of the you know, main female characters we get to know, which is mostly Sydney and Gail Weather, we don't know a whole ton about them outside of how they relate to this specific story. It's not like, you know, we're like, oh, and Sydney loves chemistry and you know, stuff like that. But you know, there's only so much you can accomplish. But it didn't super bother me in this movie, because you know, this movie has an agenda and Also, it's not like we know that much more about the male characters either. There's not like a massive imbalance, Like it's just the story doesn't tell you much about the teenagers outside of their sex lives. And they all love horror movies the insanely specific knowledge. Yeah, well I like this movie. Yeah, it's damn it. I want you to see the the other three. Let's watch them together. Okay, Okay, Hey does this movie pass the Bechdel test quite a few times between quite a few different combinations of characters that passes. Between Sid and Tatum early on, men get mentioned in this conversation, but there are two line exchanges that pass. Whenever said's like, hey, what's going on at our school? And she's like, oh, some teens were killed that we know. There is scene between Sydney and Gayl where the whole thing passes as far as I could tell. Oh, and I think Tatum is there too, where like she's like, get away from her, don't ask questions. Is none of your damn business. Blah blah blah. Yeah. So there's there's quite a few scenes where the movie passes the Epectel tests. It's get impressively. So yeah, and we've talked about this before. Of the you know, a few horror movies, we've covered that so far, it seems like all of them passed. And it's because horror movies have to be populated by many women so that they can get murdered. But before they get murdered, they talked to each other. But Catch twenty two and they and they usually have to talk because of what's happened in the movie. They probably have to talk about something aside an an, Hey, did you hear about our our friend Sally getting murdered? She got I guess it's all the Saw movies past the Fidel task, which is just another period of the flawed metrics. What are we going to do about these traps? So many traps. There a lot of knives in this room. Christie, Christie, agree, don't put your hand in that needle pile. Christopher Coops might be passes. So let's write the movie on our nipple scale, where we rate it zero to five nipples based on its portrayal and representation of women. I'm going to give this one. I would say a three. I suppose I can go right yeah, because we see the female characters being a bit more active and more motivated than they are in typical slasher movies. We don't see like the gratuitous nudity that we often see. We don't. While it does still align with some of the tropes, it also kind of redefines some of the troops and it subverts some of them. So, you know, the whole final girl has to be innocent virgin type is kind of thrown out the window with this um they save themselves at the end. There is parody between the number of men versus women who get attacked. So I think it handles things better than you know, the seventies and eighties slasher flicks that audiences had gotten accustomed to up until you know, the release of Scream. But as we also pointed out, there is no diversity in terms of race, in terms of identity and sexuality and body type and all of that stuff. So it's still the story of young, hot white women, which a character like Gail Weathers continues to help sensationalize. And yeah, yeah, so it doesn't handle everything the best that it could, but it's a step certainly in a better direction for slasher movies. So yeah, three nipples and I'm gonna give one to Sydney. I'm going to give one to Gail, and I'm gonna throw one to our pal Lillard. Lillard, Oh boy, I'm gonna go for three as well. Um, we already discussed kind of it's mostly progress on a surface level and that it's hetero white movie. Inside of the world. Women have more agency than most popular horror movies up toil this point, and I'm sure seeing this movie in theaters was cathartic for a lot of people. And it's just interesting to see, uh, you know, in a horror movie two characters Gail and Sydney, who are who don't just survive, They survive and they thrive and they come together like I don't know if like there's a lot going on, like theme wise, there's a lot in Scream. But one of the things, one of the light themes I took out of it is is, oh, it is about how kind of media and society like work to like keep women at odds with each other, because like the whole movie, they're at odds with each other. At the end, when she's like, how about this story reporter like killed two assahole teenagers murderers, and and he's like I like that story. Yeah, it's like we always say, people trying to keep women fighting, so because if we talk to each other then the scam is exposed. Uh So so yeah, I mean there's most of this movie is like terrific, and it's definitely paved the way for even more progressive work to be made. Uh and a bunch of weird not great work. So such a scary movie and that whole franchise the cost of success. Yeah, anyway, it's given it three nippies. Of course again, I tossed one to Lillard, give him a full set where I'm gonna kick one over to Casey because Drew Barrymore just she belts it. Uh, And I'm gonna give my last one again. I might just for like nostalgia and being matter factor, Like I might bump it up to four because I totally agree with everything you guys are saying. Um, but I don't know they're just being there for that movie at the time was released like in a giant crowded audience, was like it did feel like something special, and it did feel like something we were seeing something like you know, progressive and cool and new and like I'll never like forget that experience of scene of like you know, feeling that catharsis the first time I saw it in a theater, and you know, this is just me. I feel like looking back on it with like remembering like kind of what horror was before that and kind of what Scream took it to. But I can't help it, Like you know, it is a very special movie to me for that, and I'm gonna give it. I'm gonna give it one extra nipple for for for that reason, would you Oh, Um, I'm gonna give obviously Gail, Obviously, Sydney. Um, I'm gonna like also throw on to Tatum just for that kick ass move where she like slams the freezer door in Ghost Ghost Faces Face. Um, my last nipple goes to Can I give it to Sydney Gail team up at the end because I fucking love that mutual nip. Yeah, you's get one extra half nip. Well better like next time Jamie Kennedy knips for you. This time He's only in so many movies in the screen too, So we got to watch it. Think or maybe when you get the Son of Mask. Oh, there's that's like twenty years from now, we're really scraping for movies, like, all right, here's the Here's the Son of a Mask. Yeah, just wait twenty years, Jamie, and then and hopefully, you know, you'll be alive and thriving and doing even more experiments. Well, by that point, the two of us will be married and it will be the Jamie Ken Jamie Kennedy Experiment Experiment awesome show. Anyways, Well, Joan, thank you so much for beank, you for having me. This is a lot of fun. Yeah, I love going back to nineties living my high school years. Awesome. Where can people find you online? What would you like to plug? You can find me on Twitter or Instagram as Joan Hailey Ford. Other than that, I'm at UCB pretty frequently. And watch out for Yabadaba dinosaurs and Thundercat's roar, and don't forget to be on the lookout. Also be alert and aware for Paula Blark Calin and I are gonna hit. We're gonna go to a Starbucks right now and start get taking story notes. Yeah, you could set it at the Americana. The twist is it's an outdoormal. Yeah. World collidings. Oh, there's so much, There's so many more. Threats. It's outside, it could rain. Oh my god. Yeah, what's Paula going to do at Oh god, We're gonna need a high budget. We're gonna have to make that snow real. It could be a oh yeah, it's a geo storm cross howe? Where is that some some terroristism is causing a snowstorm in southern California? Oh? I love this amazing well on one complete. Hey for for great ideas like that, check us out on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook at becktel Cast. You can write and review us on iTunes. You can go to our merch store, te public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. We've got all kinds of goodies and you've you've got a few more days to get our Halloween Beetle Juice allan sale this month. Are Feminist Icon Beetle Juice, Fun, Ironic t Revenence the last year's episode, and you know, are you on team wet Scalves? Are you on Team dry Scouts? Likely failing T shirt design will only be on sale for a few more days. Also, quick plug about our East Coast tour that we're going to be doing in early November, starting on November three, we're going to be in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. November earth, we're going to be in Washington, d C. And November five, we're gonna be in New York City. Is a part of the New York Comedy Festival. For more details about the movies werecovering, our guests, the venues will be at, and how to get tickets, go to becktel Cast dot com and go to our live appearances tab and all the information will be there. You can also check our Twitter and Facebook will be posting the links there, so if you live in or near any of those cities, we hope to see you there for our live shows. And finally, we've got a Patreon a k a Matreon that gets you to bonus episodes every single month and it's only five dollars a month, So subscribe to that by going to patreon dot com, slash becktel Cast and otherwise, Um, you scream, I scream, We all scream for Screaream franchise. Yeah, okay bye, let me bye by