Episode 35: Empowerment Using Offering

Hi everybody, welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. So today Lori and I are going to talk
a little bit about where we're at with what we're
doing with Stormy and Ever and that I think is
going to lead us into some additional topics.
So at my last trial like Lori and our friend
Deb were saying to me like you know Zesh looks
like he's really worried about what I think like
he's feeling pressure from me in essence right
is that what you would say yeah yeah definitely
I mean yeah so I'm like Jesus Christ like I don't
put pressure on him but it doesn't matter what
I think it matters what he perceives right so
okay so then um deb made a suggestion of like
you know just go somewhere go different places
and just bring him out of the car and have him
like do some behaviors but i i kind of thought
a lot about my like just where he was at or how
i was feeling and i was always feeling lately
like i'm begging him like i'm dragging him like
i'm pulling him And I'm like, I don't understand
that. Like, cause I shape things, I do games,
whatever. But then I said, all right, let me
go back and do one of these like foundational
things, which I've done in the past and taught
him in the past and see what happens. So basically
I just walk around my garage and I wait for him
to offer something. And I had nothing. And I
was like, all right, nevermind going to new places
and just being like, okay. do these behaviors
until he brings it to the table I'm like I got
nothing here like I can't even start there like
he's like just standing there walking with his
head down like I don't know what happened so
I was like all right so I put I don't know if
this even makes sense or if he perceives it the
way I do but I took a bag of treats sealed and
I took um a toy And I just threw him on the ground.
And then I walked around, right? And I waited
and I waited. And eventually he picked up the
toy and kind of wandered over and looked at me.
And I immediately went, wow, exploded. We tugged.
And it was so interesting because in the past,
I've tried to get him to tug in situations. And
it always feels coercive. Like it feels like
I'm like, come on, tug. And eventually he does.
But even when he's growling and tugging, there's
still part of me that felt like it was, I don't
know, like he didn't really, he wasn't 100 %
into it. Right. This was different. He was tugging.
He was like, game on. So I did that for a few
sessions and then it got better and better. Like
he immediately, he would grab the toy and come
running up to me. So then I was like, okay, grab
the toy. Now I waited for him to like jump on
me and push me. And then one day he went to the
treats and he was sniffing the treats and sniffing
the treats. So that said to me, he wants the
treat, but I'm like, well, you have to do something.
You have to, like, be more clear. Like, tell
me you want the treat. Like, do something. Right.
So he looked at me. I looked at him. I looked
at the treat. I looked at him. I looked at the
treat. Like, you can have the treat, but you
got to do something. But I didn't cue him. I
didn't say, what can you do? I didn't do my usual
thing where I stand up really tall because that's
a cue. I just controlled myself and did nothing.
I think it's also super important. I should backtrack.
Like when I was doing this, I went into my garage
and I was like, I could be out here for an hour.
That's fine. I can't get annoyed or frustrated
because I created this. So I was perfectly content
to wander aimlessly in a circle for as long as
I needed to without getting frustrated, without
getting annoyed, without trying to manipulate
the situation, like look at him or. do something
that is the hardest part as a human yeah the
control piece yeah to do nothing right and just
wait for them yes yes well that's the thing like
um just so people who are listening can kind
of get a little bit of a visual on it like It's
easy enough for us to pull a dog out and we like
that word manipulate. That's a perfect word.
Like we can sort of create behavior. We can manipulate
the situation. We could be the ones to be pressing
the start button on the engine. But we really
want like that activation to come from the dog,
right? Like we want it like we want to be the
ones who are absolutely not initiating. And we
want the dogs to be almost activating and pushing
us. Let's do the thing, even if it is for the
motivator, even if it's for the bag of treats
on the ground or the toy on the floor. Like we
want them to be pushing to do something to get
the motivator. Right. Right. So and and I didn't
train him. I should also say that I didn't do
competition behaviors for however many days.
I just wanted to work on this piece, right? Because
I felt like if I started to add behaviors and
that would add pressure, right? From his end.
which i didn't want so we just got to where we
were playing freely and if he wanted a cookie
he would offer me some behaviors and then i would
give him some cookies but i wouldn't just hand
him cookies i made it super fun i was like ready
ready ready which way this way that way toss
a cookie made it like super exciting right and
then i put it down i turn my back to him walk
away and go in a circle and so more very quickly
because he does have a history if your dog has
zero history with this it's gonna the process
is gonna take much longer right but he has a
history so pretty quickly I'd go out in the garage
and he'd immediately like pick up a toy start
pushing me or indicate he wanted a treat start
offering behaviors fine so then I just threw
a couple little obedience oh then then what I
did was I put those, the toy and the food down.
And I also put a dumbbell down and a glove down.
I just scattered it around. And pretty quickly
he started running and like grabbing the dumbbell
and bouncing in front of me or grabbing the glove
and running up to me. And then I'd go, yes. And
then he would get whatever, whichever reinforcer
he wanted. But again, his choice, I didn't look
at the stuff. I didn't say go get it. I just
it was just there. I wanted him to pick it because
I feel like he's got some baggage with those
two exercises. So then when that was all going
really well, I was like, OK, like, let me just
throw the dumbbell. So I threw the dumbbell.
I think I have this on video. I'm going to post
it. He ran out to get it. And then. fucking labs
there was a piece of the matting because i had
just finished putting the mat down and he thought
it was a treat so he leaves the dumbbell he runs
and goes to the mat now what did i do nothing
because i felt like if i said no i said go get
the dumbbell guess what we're back to me running
the show And now we're not offering. Right. Right.
So I just walked over, picked up the dumbbell
myself, like a good human retriever and told
him, dude, that's the mat. Don't eat that, please.
Put everything started over, let him offer again,
whatever. Got to the point, got the dumbbell
through it, ran out, ramp, beautiful, like. beautiful,
beautiful. Yes. No front, no finish tug. I was
done. Um, so then the other day I did it in the
morning, kind of as like a refresher, like here's
the toy, you know, let's do our little game.
Then I went to the Lowe's and I was like, okay,
if he decides to do it, he'll do it. If he doesn't,
he doesn't, he gets to choose. Right. So, um,
I brought him out of the car. had the stuff on
the floor already on the ground outside. I was
actually outside the store because I felt inside,
you know, I wanted to do a little bit easier.
And then I just walked him there and I stood
there and I let him look around. I let him sniff,
whatever, do his own acclimation. And I did nothing.
And I just waited. And then relatively quickly,
he started engaging and doing the whole game
thing. So and then that was it. I just left.
I wasn't like, oh, well, good. Let me do more.
I was like, oh, good. He did it here. That's
awesome. I left. So then it was super interesting.
I had my training with my two training partners.
So I went in there and he and they understand.
I explained this is what I'm doing. I'm not training
Zaina. I may not be doing any exercises when
it's my turn. We just might be standing here
for a while. And it took him a really while before
he picked up his toy. And once he did, I did
a really good tugging game. And then I just put
him away because it took him a while. Yeah. So
I felt like we're just going to play. So then
it was my turn again. He came out once or twice.
He came out relatively quickly, got going again.
We just did some play. I'm trying to remember
if I even did any exercises at all. Probably
not. One time he came out and he just. was sniffing
the ground and my training partner's like he's
just displacing like he's not really there's
nothing out here like so we just let him for
a little bit and he didn't check in I just put
him away not as a punishment but like he clearly
in that moment was not choosing right to work
right like He was choosing not to. So if I waited
and waited or forced it again, what am I doing?
I'm forcing the issue, right? So I put him away.
I didn't say naughty dog. I just said, okay,
buddy, go in your crate. There you go. You know,
you get to choose, right? Skipped his turn, took
him back out. He came out, ran right for his
toy, started tugging right away. And I think
part of it, too, is he has to put it together.
And he's probably in that environment. I've probably
at some point, clearly, not probably, I shifted
the relationship inadvertently. Right. Right.
And so he has a stronger, like, whatever feelings
there. But I still felt like overall it was a
success. And then yesterday. We went, I went
to a different training building. It was me and
three other people. And I was like, I had Zaina.
So I'm like, if he doesn't want to work, he doesn't,
you know, he doesn't have to. So I got in a little
bit ahead of them, put my stuff on the floor,
let him look around. He's been in this building
before, but whatever. And then pretty quickly
he picked up his toy, which. I should even say
the fact that he's choosing his toy over food.
Like I tried to get him to choose his toy over
food. He never would again because I was trying.
Yeah. It's so fascinating that now more like
80 % of the time he's choosing his toy over the
food, which if you know him is a miracle because
he's obsessed with food. Right. So pick the toy.
We tugged. And, you know, he picked the dumbbell
and the glove off the floor and he was like,
let's go, let's work. And I was like, OK, put
him in his crate. So we start training. It's
my turn. I take him out of the crate. I wait.
I'm like, if he doesn't pick something, I'll
put him back and take Santa. No, he wanted to
work. And then he started throwing himself into
heel position and bouncing like crazy. So I'm
like, all right, let's see what you can do. So
I didn't say I didn't even pre -cue my ring entrance
because I'm standing in front of it. He's smart.
He's done this a million times. He knows. I didn't
even say it. I just leaned and he started bouncing
and I went in. And then I didn't give him my
transition pre -cue. I just leaned forward like,
are you good? Can we go? And he's like, let's
go. Right. Um, I, for whatever exercise we did,
I didn't even do my pre -cues or my usual like
bounce, bounce, bounce. I just did nothing. He
started bouncing and then I just did my pivot,
sent them. And then for everything, I just yessed
it. No fronts, no finishes. I had cookies on
me, which I usually don't, which I know kind
of changes the situation a little, but for the
step I'm at, I didn't care. Like, cause I just
want him to offer, get rewarded for offering
and be happy. And I think he came out every single
time. I think one time he came out and acted
weird and I just put him back in his crate and
took Zaina out. Yep. Did her. Then when it was
Zaina's turn, I said, okay, you can have another
chance. If you don't want to, you don't have
to. If you want to, he comes out, he's like,
grabs the toy. He's like, let's go. um so i think
over time i'm gonna i want to start without having
the food and toy out that'll be the next step
i think and i'm making this up as i go right
and see if he chooses and offers and then i'll
present and let him pick maybe right um which
he want you know which one he wants I know in
the past, sometimes like I've trained and said,
toy, you're getting your toy. And he goes, I
don't want the toy. And I'm like, you're getting
the toy. Cause I marked toy and I want you to,
I'm not going to do that. I'm not like, I think
at one point I wanted to give him a toy and he
was like, no, I said, okay, here's food. Like
no argument. You want food? You can have food.
I don't care here. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Because,
again, that would be me saying, I want to reward
you with a toy. And he's like, but I want food
and I would rather have food. So I'm like, fine.
You want food? You can have food. Yeah. You did
your job. Yeah. And I've gotten that, too, sometimes
with, like, I say game. So, like, if that's going
to be their reinforcer, I go game. And they're
supposed to look on the floor or they know I'm
going to give them their toy. And if they opt
out, it's kind of a tricky thing. If they opt
out and they're like, well, I can clearly see
like they're like, yeah, I don't really want
that hand over the cookies. Then I go, you don't
want your game? All right, let's put, I just
put them away because I get a little, like, I
don't, that gets a little tricky because. I get
what you're saying. Like, you don't want to put
more pressure on. Like, you must have this. This
is your reinforcer. But at the end of the day,
too, like, I don't want them calling shots on
what reinforcer they get. You know what I mean?
So I keep it very, like, I just go, oh, all right,
you don't want it? You sure? Game? And they're
like, no, I want food. And I go, all right, well,
let's just go put you away. And maybe next time
you play your game, I just put them in. That's
what I do. I've done that with him. And then
he just gets sucky and he doesn't. But I also
think in fairness with him, because as a young
dog, he was so high and his high and his tugging
would turn into aggression very quickly. I didn't
do the toy a lot. I minimized it. And I didn't
have separate markers early on. And with certain
exercises, I paired more with a toy and certain
more with a food. And he definitely has developed
very specific expectations. Like in this situation,
you've always given me food. Therefore, that's
what I expect and want. It's kind of like a patterned
reinforcement history. So in that case, I feel
like it's my fault. I think that eventually,
I think that in his case, I'm letting him choose
just because I'm trying to overall give him agency
and choice. Do you know what I'm saying? I want
him to think right now that everything is his
idea. Right. And then I might change later if
the relationship is changed. You know what I
mean? Like then, like if you wanted to change
that up and work on that, because it's something
I'm always trying to work on too. I don't, that's
a whole nother episode, but. You could do it
outside of your obedience stuff. You know what
I mean? Like you could do it in other things
to work on that aspect. But I totally get what
you're saying. Like you want that empowerment
feeling for him. Right now, right? And what was
pretty profound to me is that my training partner,
one of my training partners said to me yesterday,
she said, he looks. she at the end of the training
session she goes oh my god what a difference
he looks completely different his body looks
different yeah he looks more his whole body looks
more relaxed yeah yeah so that was um you know
i was like wow so you know it's she's notice
it it's noticeable to someone else So right now,
yeah, I'm doing things that I might not do if
I started a dog or I might not do in certain
situations. I'm doing things purposefully now.
Like at one point I did a front and his front
was crooked. I didn't say anything. I just let
it go because right now I don't want to say,
don't, you know, fix it. I will at some point.
But right now I just, I'm working on, I just
want him to feel good and feel free. And just,
yeah, I just need to shift the work relationship
because I don't have this. So Debra mentioned
like, you know, when she goes on a hike, she
has them offer engagement. When I hike, like
it's been annoying. He's been doing this for
like a month where, I, when, when I hike, I'm
on like these trails that have roots and rocks
and there, I got to look where I'm going. He
runs in front of me, walks backwards with his
toy. And he's like, and he wants me to like interact
with him. So then I have to like play with him
and then I'm like, go. And then he runs. And
then like 10 minutes later, he's back doing it
again over. And he's staring at me in my eyeballs.
Right. Yeah. So in that scenario, I don't have
that issue. Right. Like he's giving me eye contact
in everyday life, follows me room to room, stares
at me, eyeball to eyeball. Somehow I inadvertently
poisoned something in my work relationship. Yep.
So in that relationship, I have. So I, and I
always found that with offering, like I've done
this with not, so for example, I had a student,
she has a, oh God, I'm going to say it wrong.
I want to say a bull terrier, total non -traditional.
I mean, holy Hannah, right? So this dog, you
know, they don't retrieve, duh. So I just had
her for his meal. And the dog knew how to offer.
So I just had her put the dumbbell down. And
eventually he offered to pick it up. And then
she will go, yes, and give him some of his food.
And then he will pick it up and she will go,
yeah. So she didn't tell him to pick it up. She
didn't hold it. She didn't put it towards him.
She just placed it on the ground and she looked
at it. Right. And the dog is a shaped dog, a
dog that understands how to offer behaviors.
He voluntarily, that dog had an amazing retrieve,
beautiful hold, beautiful retrieve. I've done
it with my own dogs, like Zaina, long story,
but she was having a problem with her dumbbell
and hold and fronting. So I just took the dumbbell,
took her in my sunroom. held it in my hand loosely
like not like in the just it was there waited
for her to volunteer to take it and to this day
I do it as a warm -up I just put the dumbbell
down and she like grabs it runs into front hold
pushes it towards me like look I'm holding it
and her eyes are really bright because she's
like look I'm doing it because it's her idea
right So I've done that a lot to solve problems
or with things that dogs like uncomfortable with.
Yeah, because it builds confidence and it empowers
the dog, right? Hugely. Yeah. So, I mean, first
you have to teach your dog how to offer, which
a lot of people. have trouble with because they
have trouble with the waiting piece, right? Yeah,
the patience. You got to be patient. That's the
first thing I always say. Like, you need to be
patient. And not, like, it's easy because we
want to micromanage. You can't. You got to stop
and let the dog figure it out. Takes a lot of
self -control. Yeah. But letting it be their
idea, it has been a game changer. I mean, it's
what was a game changer for Zeal when he was
worried. I would say, what can you do? Like if
I left him on signals, turn around and face him
and he looked like he was going to die, go, what
can you do? Which is his offering you. He wouldn't
actually even offer behavior. His attitude would
just change. And I'd go, yes. Right. Right. Because
he was. If I turn and said bounce or back up,
he'd be like, oh, God, to him, it was just another
like command. Yeah. But if I said, what can you
do? It's weird. He would just like light up like
a Christmas tree. And then I could say I could
just like mark that. Right. Because it was really
the state of mind that I'm trying to change.
Right. And which is what I'm trying to do with
Sassy is just like change his state of mind about
it and make it like. make him feel like he wants
to do it instead of me saying, let's do it. Well,
it's like liberating for him. That's what it
is. Yeah. You know? Well, and I think it takes
the pressure off. I think in his case, it's taking
whatever pressure he feels I'm putting on him.
It's taking that pressure off. Yeah. And I could,
you know, sit here and argue till the cows come
home. Well, no, I don't put pressure on him.
I don't say this. I don't do that. Well, it doesn't
matter. He thinks I do. Exactly. There you go.
Right. And that's all that matters. So I have
to listen to what he's doing. Yeah, because inadvertently.
Like you said, like you may not even know where
it happened, how it happened, but somewhere along
the line, it happened. It happened in my relationship
with Ever, too, in a little bit of a different
way. But it's the same thing. So you using the
offering, which is, you know, something that
your dogs all know because you taught it, that
definitely is going to help. I just always I
have like a visual of them like in a vice, these
poor dogs, like they're like being squeezed.
However, I know it's so hard. Well, I think the
work can. Yeah. It's just so hard. So it's that,
and like, you know, we are, I mean, it's, it's
high, it's highly competitive, the stuff that
we're doing, like, and we're with whatever we're
training, however we're training, there's still
that, like, there's always going to be some sort
of pressure in some form, shape or form that.
We're trying to meet goals, right? Like that's
a thing. And along the lines, we're only human
beings. Like we do our best in the welfare of
our dogs and making sure that their mental states
stay healthy through the stupid fucking thing
we ask them to do. But it is, it's hard. And
somewhere along the lines, this stuff can leak
in and it shows up and it'll show up in the ring,
in the test. And it's also an ego thing, right?
Like when someone tells you your dog looks like
it's, I forget whatever you guys exactly said,
but it's basically like, you know, your dog looks
like it's afraid to be wrong. Like you put pressure
on it. Like your first reaction is like, no,
I don't. No, I don't. I don't know. And my dog
should not feel that way because I don't. And
therefore, I'm not even going to explore this
idea. Right. Like. It's kind of like Jesus, like,
yeah, like I have to be honest, like I and I
even said I'm like, I know he looks like. I'm
like, but I don't do it. But then I have to say,
OK, like, doesn't matter if I don't put pressure
on him. Right. I had to say, but if he thinks
that. Right. Then I have to put my ego aside.
And accept that even though I'm uncomfortable
saying like. You know, like I feel terrible feeling
that he feels that way. And I want to say, well,
he shouldn't, but he does. And it's not about
me or how I feel or what I perceive. It's about
how he feels. And so then I need to say, okay,
then if that's the case, what can I do to make
him feel? differently right and I think that
is a hindrance for people a lot of times is like
oh yes oh yes right and like people will ask
me for help sometimes this is like a pet peeve
look if you ask me for help I I'm I help people
all the time happily but if you ask me for help
and as soon as I start making suggestions you
start going well I already did that and it's
the dog and then well then forget it you don't
really want my help Right. Right. Because you
got to put your ego aside. It's our responsibility.
Right. In the partnership with our dogs. It's
our responsibility, even though it's teamwork.
Right. And we're partners. It's it's the human,
the handler's responsibility to be. We have to
be humble enough to really look at it for what
it is. The honesty factor of what's going on
in your training. I mean, it is not comfortable
sometimes, like you just said, like it was hard
to hear that. And sometimes it is, but it is,
it's on us, our responsibility to put that aside
and figure out where, you may not even figure
out where it happened, but somewhere along the
lines it happened and we need to figure out how
to fix it. That's really the bottom line. Yeah.
What I thought was interesting is with you and
Ever, like you were telling me how with her,
like she couldn't even sit still and you were
working on her just getting to sit still. And
I don't know, I was, I mean, I understood technically
what you were saying, but I was like, I'm not,
I don't understand how that's helping her. But
then you made a Facebook post and you were saying
that it was an arousal issue. Like you had, I
think, tell me if inadvertently taught her that
when you sit still that she should raise her
arousal, but then that would put her into anxiety.
Yeah, it's complicated. It's complicated. And
it wasn't until it wasn't until. actually deb
one of our training partners actually was like
you need to just just have her sit like just
put her in a sit it wasn't even in heel position
when we like messed around with it just put her
in a sit you're just gonna feed the sit the dog
couldn't fucking sit because she would offer
is what you're saying yeah she would offer right
which is like she would offer whether it was
like she'd start whining her feet would start
going the tail would start like but but And Debbie's
like, well, just have her, have her sit. So I
tell her to sit. I couldn't not get past one
second with this dog without her doing that.
Right. And then, so I thought about it and I'm
like, I go back in my head and I'm like, well,
this is what, this is what I did. Like all the
offering, all the shaping, but I net. So what
happens is when. I would ask her to offer, right?
Then it kicks her into a higher arousal, right?
And that's where I'm going to start to get some
whining, the foot movement. So that had become
kind of the pattern in that static position of
sit. Does this make sense? I feel like it's complicated.
No, I understand that because we basically teach
our dogs that if we're not doing anything, Yeah.
Right. That you should start to offer behaviors
for us. Like we taught them that. Right. And
I and and that and that's exactly what I did.
And then what happened was I never went and really
reinforced. Like that optimal arousal state in
a static position where there is no. movement
or whining just that beautiful quiet drive like
I always I always go back to that example of
a visual of like just that working you know border
collie who just is so still and they're completely
focused and they don't move you know like that
just that beautiful look I never was I think
in her case, when she puts herself into high
arousal or you put her into high arousal and
she's in the ring, it spills into anxiety. Yeah,
I think that can definitely happen. But what
I've been figuring out then is because of whoever
is, like she truly cares. in the most she cares
the most about being right even in her life like
the dog is just if she has any inclination that
she might not be right then she worries and when
she does that then she dips down into low arousal
and then she's sucky and arousal is arousal so
if she's too low Just the same as she's too high,
she's not going to be able to function correctly.
So I think what was happening was I, I know this
is complicated, but this is like where my brain's
been going. I'm trying to figure all this out.
Like, because I paired so much of the offering,
which created the high arousal in some of that
static position, which was the sit. And then
I paired all of it with like definitely with
articles. I trained articles 90 % of the time
with kicking her into high arousal, even in that
static position so that she would fly out to
the pile, grab like I wanted speed, fast, sexy,
crazy. I had her barking like a fucking lunatic.
Like I didn't train that exercise. Like. purposely
where it should have been trained for ring picture
so I think then what happened was I wouldn't
say like I corrected the arousal when she would
bark but then all of a sudden I was asking her
because I was like well I can't I can't trial
her like that obviously so she needs to be quiet
and still in her mind then she was like fucking
a like I'm wrong. Like I'm being corrected. And
then I think that's where it poisoned that exercise.
So sitting there in heel position, she didn't
know what to fucking do. And so I think her head
went into, oh my God, I'm wrong. It created enormous
pressure sitting there and it just bled into
sucky freaking articles. Like, I don't know for
sure. Like this is where I'm at. It could also
be that like in the ring a lot of times. She
can't put herself like she'll get flat and she
and she can't put herself into high arousal.
And then maybe she thinks she's wrong, too. Do
you know what I'm saying? Because you might give
her a pre -cue or you might be like, come on,
bump yourself up. And she's like, I can't. And
then when she can't, she's probably immediately
thinking. And therefore, I'm wrong. I'm wrong.
And yes, right. Right. That's exactly where I'm
at with her. which like is, I know that sounds
really complicated to a lot of people. But right
now what I'm doing with her is because that dog
will like in training, like even, even like if
I just have her sitting there and I look at her
long enough, she starts to offer, you know, like
we trained all that, but I need to. I need to
teach her not to offer. Like I need her to be,
I need to teach and reinforce stillness in optimal
arousal in that position. Right. So that's what
I've been doing. So she knows what to do. She
knows it's correct not to offer. So what I've
been doing is I'm. Literally, I can get to three
or four seconds now, which isn't very long. So
even when the judge takes the article, you know,
sometimes it feels like forever. She's still
I can like she's good for a couple seconds and
then I can see like where she's like, oh, God,
oh, God. So it's a work in progress, but I am
giving her cues and training like I've been calling
it just the doodling stuff where I go set her
up. I put all our articles out. I set her up.
I do the whole thing. I let her see him. I turn.
We sit. And now I'm just giving her a cue. It's
kind of stupid. I just rub the side of my leg
and I say, one, two, sit. One, two. Because that's
what I've been doing to try to count to see how
far I can go. So it's become a little bit of
a verbal cue for her. And then I feed it in training.
And then I do a with me. I do another setup.
I do all, I don't do just relaxed doodling where
we're just like moving around. I actually am
putting her cues in that I would use in the ring.
I'm putting a setup. I'm putting with me so that
it's all interactively paired so that we can
carry this into the ring, which did help. um,
the last weekend when we were up at Schenectady,
I saw like, there's a lot of work to be done,
but I did see a lot of improvement because she
feels better in static position with, cause now
she knows what to do. And therefore it ha it.
Then, because the two exercises, gloves and articles,
is where they have to sit the longest in utility,
so that's where I had so much crap and she'd
be sucky on going out to get her whatever, article
or glove, and then she'd come back all sucky
because I saw a huge difference. Like it just,
just that helping her in that static position.
bled into the actual exercise because it's not
the exercise like i taught the dogs train and
the dog's been motivated up the wing like we
do the games we do all the things so it's not
the actual exercise it this is where i'm going
where where i think this is my problem It's actually
in those little nuances of sitting in a static
position with me. Well, the arousal thing is
super tricky, right? Because it's always like
we're always trying. We tend most people to try
and get more arousal and then you'll get it in
training. So then in training, you're constantly
training the dog in a higher state of arousal,
which is fine if the dog can transfer that state
of arousal into the ring. Tyler. my dog way back
he was able to do that he trained in arousal
he worked in arousal he showed an arousal so
it was all the same he was an exceptional animal
in that sense right but what happens with most
dogs is that's not the state of arousal they're
in when they compete Right now, some dogs go
in a higher state of arousal when they compete.
Some go in a lower state of arousal when they
compete. So if that's the state of arousal they're
in when they're competing and you're training
in a different state, it's apples and oranges.
Right. So what you have to do is train your dog.
in the state of arousal they're going to be in
in the ring in order to get carryover so i could
train zesty like and push him artificially into
arousal which is what i was doing in training
like i was manufacturing it And then when I went
in the ring, I couldn't manufacture it because
he wasn't responding to it. Right. And maybe
then in that case, he was perceiving that as
pressure. But regardless, he was he trials in
a different state of arousal. So another thing
I had to do was I had to say, I can't keep manufacturing
this arousal and training. Because I can't manufacture
it in the ring. So what use is it? Like, why
am I training him in this state? It's not the
same. So I have to get what I want without manufacturing
it, right? So I either have to, so in part, I
have to train him in lower arousal. So I think
the whole thing about, you know, arousal in and
of itself is like we have to we I think people
look at it as just like this blanket simple like
I tug my dog is excited my dog works better that's
the solution but it's so much more complicated
than that it is it is very complicated and I
think what you just said you know the way you're
train it you know the the apples and oranges
right chalk and cheese as some of them say like
because it's true like that's what kind of happened
with ever like I I and I love like I somebody
said to me you really do love the high arousal
dogs. I do. Like, I love training that. Like,
that's the dog I love to train. So I'm comfortable
there, which means I have to be careful because
that's where I like to get them in training.
But we have to be realistic because that's exactly
the mistake I made with Ever. I had her in way
high arousal in training. And then I was like,
oh, no, no, no, you can't do that in the ring.
And never explained any of that or taught her
how to work in the arousal state. She needs to
be in the ring, just like you just said with
Zesty. And that's how, when she started to perceive
that she was wrong, you know, and that's where
I had a problem. Also, you said something which
is really important. You're comfortable in high
arousal or with a high arousal dog, but all dogs.
are not comfortable in high arousal. So like
zeal, I would be like, come on, get high. And
then I go to teach him something and he'd be
like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a
minute. And then he'd go through this elaborate
production of sneezing and shaking and all this
stuff and bring his arousal down. Cause he's
like, no, can't do it in that state of arousal.
So didn't matter what I wanted, like, he was
not comfortable there yeah right like for a lot
of his life and in general he was not like he
learned to work in higher arousal but very high
arousal was not his jam right so it didn't matter
what I wanted or that I like it or that I want
my dogs there right he Is not happy there. Right.
Right. So we also have to look at that, like
where it doesn't matter. Now it doesn't mean
you can't take a dog and teach it to be comfortable
in a high earth state, but he is never, he was
never going to work. comfortably where Zaina
Zaina very happily and comfortably works like
she loves being on the edge of that cliff ideally
she'd go over the cliff that's her favorite place
to be is over the cliff incomplete and utter
chaos she's happy as a clam there yelling she
loves it there right so I have my job is that
balancing act of the fine line. And I can just,
you know, I, most of the time she goes, she tilts
over just that tiny little bit, just to get,
just to take away that extra, you know, little
bit in the ring, but she's happy up there. Very
happy. That's where she, I don't even, it's not
even a problem putting her there. Cause she's
like, this is where I like to be. I'm happy here.
Right. And Zest, I don't think he, he does not
like being where she's at. Right. You know, he'd
rather, similar to Zeal, he can work in higher
arousal. But if I get him in too high arousal,
it completely degrades. He starts screaming.
He starts barking. He starts going, like this
pitchy whine. That's not a good place, you know,
or I'm like, okay, hold like, right. So he can't
be there. He needs to be somewhere lower down.
Now, part of it is because I've worked him a
lot in more moderate arousal. But part of it,
I think, is like when he's and in life, if he
spills into super high arousal, it's like. zero
and you can't even penetrate at that moment it's
like he can't even hear you right so all dogs
like stormy can function in high arousal like
she she likes it there that's where she's happy
but every dog that yes they can get there but
can they function there every dog can't I agree.
And that's actually what I'm really seeing a
lot with Salty, the puppy, because he can go
to high arousal super fucking fast. But when
he goes there, it's not comfortable for him.
He starts screaming. He can't think. genetics,
the work kicks him there really fast. So I have
to be really careful on my training strategies
with him because I need, like right now, all
I'm working on with him is just doing behaviors
in optimal arousal. Like, because And I have
to be really careful because I like that high
arousal, as you guys know. And you're like, dude.
So I have to be mindful, even though it feels
fun and glamorous. It's not. how this dog is
going to be able to, he can't properly function
that way, which I see, like even doing articles,
like if he's too high, he can't do them. So I
do a lot of work right now with him, just working
him in. And helping him be in a good state of
mind, whether it's just going from a platform
to a platform, which is what I now have out.
Like even if I'm going to go do an actual training
segment of like a piece of exercise or behavior,
obedience behavior, if I see that state going
up because the work kicks in there, I just go,
I take him out of that, like doing the formal
pieces and I just do some work like that doodling
stuff. Um, because, and he, and he goes there,
I think he goes there because like I said, like
genetically the work takes him there. Like that's
what he's been bred to do sort of, but I can't,
he can't operate there. You know what I mean?
I also think with a lot of dogs, like with Zeal,
his... He did everything in the ring really fast,
but that came of it all on its own over time
when he got really confident with the exercise.
Yep. Over time, like, I mean, he did things so
painfully slow. It was like my eyes were bleeding.
I was dying inside. Like, it was horrible. It
was slow. Well, because you're not comfortable
there. No, I'm not. Because I want it fast and
relaxed. But it was horribly slow. But I just
was like, all right, whatever. Just shut up.
Just deal with it, right? And then once he learned
it, it will get a little bit faster. And then
he got more comfortable and he'd get a little
faster. And then when he was like, I know what
to do. He got really fast, all on his own. Like,
I'm not saying, yes, I did games and stuff like
that. But like my training in essence didn't
change. It just, he changed all on his own, right?
Like. As he got more and more confident and more
and more comfortable, he got faster and faster.
And so with some, in some situations, like I
have a student with a border collie and dude,
you know, they are insane with the dumbbell.
So, so totally counterintuitive. I said to her,
do not restrain this dog. Do not fire this dog
up for this dumbbell. Just train it calm. Back
chain it, right? And this is a very thoughtful
border collie. The dog doesn't want to be wrong,
right? It's very soft. But I was like, yeah.
And in my head, there's part of me that's like,
oh God, I hope you don't like ruin this person's
Dumbo where the dog trots out, trots back for
the rest of its career, right? No, all on its
own. Dog's getting faster. In fact, dog's already
starting to want to anticipate the retrieve.
And she's done no games. no drive building, no
restraining. Right. Cause it's in the dog already
genetically. Like it's just, that's how the breed
is with these things. And even though this dog
is not, is on the softer slide, more thoughtful
side and so on, it's coming on its own. Right.
And so even with some breeds that aren't prone
to high arousal or that kind of thing, confidence,
build speed right like confidence and understanding
their job which takes a while um will bring in
a lot of cases things will get faster because
the dog's like oh especially if we're very clear
and clean with our training and consistent with
our information the dog will just get faster
on its own exactly exactly because it's it's
yeah like you said with the border collie like
it's easy it's easy to want to Like put like
what you just don't need with a Ferrari. You
don't need to step on the gas hard. You don't
need to put the fuel on the fire. It's there
already. Right. And you can easily kick it out
of orbit and then have a lot of problems down
the road. But you're right. Like with other dogs,
like just confidence building will. Like innately,
organically build more speed. Definitely. Yeah.
And again, it's that patience thing. It's not
us trying to, cause like in some cases, especially
with dogs that aren't Ferraris, right? Like,
but even I think what happened with Zesty, like
we're trying to get speed. So in a lot of cases,
I think they start perceiving that as pressure.
And then that has, that has either the opposite
effect. They slow down more or. They'll go faster,
but there's that element of anxiety in there.
And that causes a whole host of other problems.
In both cases, it's a manifestation of pressure
where we're trying to artificially create something
that maybe the dog in that moment is not ready
for. Like maybe they're like, I don't understand
the job well enough or. Okay. I'm thinking I'm
still at a point in my learning where I'm thinking
about what I'm doing or I don't want to be wrong.
So I'm overthinking like, and whatever the case,
the dogs were just like, come on, do it fast.
And the dogs like not in a mental place where
they're innately able to do it quickly yet. And
so then that causes pressure. yeah conflict definitely
definitely it's hard dog training's fucking hard
that's what we should have named the podcast
because i feel like every week that's what we
say we're like we should not have we should have
named it dog training is hard because we say
it all the time oh my god All right, guys. Yeah.
That's where we're at. And I'm not for a while.
To be continued because it's not done. Never
ending. Never ending. Bye. Thanks, everybody.
Bye.