SPECIAL COVERAGE: Trump Hit With $364 Million Fine in NY Fraud Case

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:10.399 News, breaking news. Here the former President Trump. He has 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:12.200 been ordered to pay three hundred and sixty four million 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.640 dollars for fraud in a New York civil trial. The 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.560 former president also barred from running his New York company 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:19.840 for three years, his sons have been barred from serving 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.120 as New York executives for two years, and the defendants 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.000 of the case have lost on all claims in that 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.760 New York civil fraud trial. Let's now bring in Bloomberg 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:30.920 News reporter Greg Farrell, who joins us on the phone, 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.640 and also Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grosso. Greg I 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:34.040 do want to. 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:34.599 Start with you? 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.640 This was this verdict widely expected, especially that three hundred 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:41.600 and sixty four million dollar figure in general. 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.280 Yes, okay, given that the judge had found in favor 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.080 of the age a couple of months ago before the 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.879 actual trial, and some of the comments and observations that 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:53.840 he made leading up to it, it was clear that 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:55.240 who's going to hit him fairly hard? 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.279 And what do you make of the like the put 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.639 the scale in the of the defeat on this for us, 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.280 for Trump, because as we know, the president is a 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.199 former president excuse me, has moved much of his life 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.120 to Florida at this point, So does it matter that 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:11.680 the state of Yeah, go ahead. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.839 A the age was seeing a lifetime ban. He only 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:18.959 got three years, so that actually went in his favor 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.520 and his sons. They sought a five year ban against 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.000 running or being an office for a company in New York, 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:28.640 only two years, so that was relatively light on that front. However, 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.760 the businesses, it's not just as easy as you know, 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.160 carrying up the paperwork and then reconcept, you know, filing 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:39.679 to establish the same businesses in Florida. That's something that 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.200 has not been resolved yet is whether or not Trump 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:44.959 will have to as the business cerpertificates will be canceled, 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.520 whether or not these properties will have to go into liquidation. 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.440 So that's not clear from today's ruling. That's that's a 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.040 big you know, to be determined. 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.080 Okay, Well, I want to bring in Bloomberg News legal 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.760 analyst June Grossa, who's got a thick stack of paper 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:00.640 covering the keyboard right now, and she's made her way 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:01.600 through quite a bit of it. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:02.560 June, what are you learning? 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.120 I have not made my way through quite a bit 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.160 of it. I just went to the back. I went 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.200 to the back to look at what he actually what 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.720 he actually ordered. What Greg said is absolutely true. What 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:14.800 I think the worst that could have happened is what 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.600 they call the corporate death penalty, which didn't happen here. 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:24.000 So as Greg said, you know, he is not allowed 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.119 to do business for three years, his sons for two. 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:29.800 And I think I'm looking for the part that I 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:34.160 found interesting. Now there's a there's already a judge in 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.520 place as an independent monitor. That judge is going to 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.400 continue as an independent monitor. And also the court is 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.320 ordering an independent director of compliance be installed at the 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.400 Trump organization who shall be responsible for ensuring good financial 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:54.080 and accounting practices, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.760 the court mentioned that there was an appeal. Trump was 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:02.320 making an appeal from some of his findings about the 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:07.240 license of the company, and he said that you know 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:08.639 I can't find it right. 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:09.200 Now, be fair. 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.200 I just want to paint the picture for everybody listening 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.240 right now, literally a stack of. 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:18.560 What jims it's ninety ninety pages, ninety eight, ninety two. 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:20.160 Not to lie, it's only ninety two. 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.280 I'm impressed with both of you have been able to 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.120 come up with at this point, Emily take it away. 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.400 What does this mean for the election. I'm really curious 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:32.880 what if there's any implications on this results on question? 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.960 I don't think so. I mean this unless he was 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.640 going to, you know, use his own money for the election, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.320 and this will stop him from uh doing that. There 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.240 really is nothing in this having to do with the election. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:45.720 I mean, the case is that you have to look 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:47.880 at for the election or more. The criminal case is 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.800 one that's been set now for next month in New York, 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.000 the hush money case, and of course the case in 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.280 DC that now the Supreme Court is deciding whether or 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.040 not to put us have a stay on that decision 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.080 and so put a hold on that case while he 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.440 appeals it. So, I mean, those are the ones that 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.080 are really have anything to do with his And it's 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.560 not so much that it would stop him from runny. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.120 It's just that people would be interested and perhaps it 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.080 would matter to people if he is criminally convicted. This 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.159 I don't think, you know, so much matters to be 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:24.480 But they look at it and they think it's the 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:26.880 Trump organization, right, you know, they look at it. It's 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:33.400 about okay, he overstated his income, and the Attorney General said, well, 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.280 you can't do that because that's a business records violation, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.360 and you know, you have to disgorge the money that 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.560 you got as a result of your lies about your 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.719 net worth. So I don't think people really that will 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:48.839 affect them as much. 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.120 I understand that you and and we've seen polling that 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:53.520 that sort of shows that the criminal cases are certainly 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.320 more important, Greg, Greg Farrell, I want to bring you 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.840 back in her Bloomberg News reporter Greg Farrell that said 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.840 everything that June said, I understand at the same time, 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.760 it costs a lot of money to run for president. Yes, 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:07.080 and it costs a lot of mone And this is 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.240 a three hundred and sixty four million dollars fine. Here 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.240 is this real money we're talking about, Like. 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:13.919 Yeah, this is real money. 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:15.000 He's gonna have to pay this. 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:18.520 I mean, like because we're so used to throwing a 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.679 term billionaire around. Yeah, like everybody he has this unlimited pockets. 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.920 But no, And my colleague Arett Larsington an excellent article 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.240 about three weeks ago pointing out like some of the 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.400 dire fiscal straits, you know, in terms of cash access 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.120 to real cash that trum pass. He might have to 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.880 liquidate some of these buildings just to come up with 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.359 this money. It's not like he has like he's claimed 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.680 that he has four hundred million in cash available. But 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:45.479 you know, as we know, just because he claims it 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.400 doesn't mean it's necessarily. 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:51.520 So he's going to appeal this though, Greg, we have 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.240 no doubt he's going to appeal it. Then he'll have 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.880 to either put up the money plus five percent or 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.320 get a bond, secure a bond. 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.799 It's tough, like good luck to him getting a bond. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.040 It's well known in that community. 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:05.960 So well, you talk a little bit about that, Greg, 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.000 the challenge there, talk a little bit about that. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:13.520 Just that you know, he'd be a difficult guy to go, 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:15.600 you know, to give a bond to. He just does 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.200 not have a good reputation in that community. Yes, he 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.760 can appeal it, but you can't just use an appeal 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.000 as an excuse to stop, you know, making a payment, 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:25.720 put it off for several years. So, as June pointed out, 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.400 he'd have to post some of that money, you know, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.400 a good chunk of it I think upfront in escrow. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.320 And also let's not forget he is appealing the eighty 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.560 three million dollar e Gene Carrol verdict, So the same 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.120 thing there, Hill and the last time, the last verdict, 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.240 the fifteen million dollar. I think it was the first 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.800 Gene Carol verts. He put up the money himself. He 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.440 put up the money himself. He put up that plus 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:50.520 five percent June. 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.440 Do we know if the former president is very good 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.320 at raising money? Yes, very very good at raising money. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.359 He's in fact, he used some of his legal challenges 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:00.560 to raise money from supporters. 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:02.120 Is he a big boom? 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.360 It has been, Yeah, thank you, Greg, it has been. 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.680 Is he allowed June to actually use that money to 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:08.719 pay these spines? 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:09.240 Do we know? 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.480 I don't think he's allowed to pay the fines with it? 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:14.800 Okay? Sorry, go ahead, right? 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.200 He had not? Those are campaign those are funds for 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.240 like he could pay for his legal representation. But he 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.560 cannot pay like the damage's reward. That's like off limits. 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.760 What about like funding from like a super pac for example, 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:28.800 Could that money go for this? 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.440 I don't think it can. But but the thing is 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.960 that it's all the super pack stuff is very hazy 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.680 and things aren't enforced as much as they should be. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:43.800 So but I don't think you can pay from a 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:44.720 super pack either. 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:46.800 I mean, I guess Greg, what you can tell I'm 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.040 getting at is is is Trump going to have to 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:49.520 open up. 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:50.080 His wallet here? 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.400 Yeah? Yes, and I think so absolutely. And that's that's 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:56.680 the real real pain here is the judge came up 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.080 at the high end of what the ag asked for. 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.800 I think she asked three hundred and seventy million, and 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:03.640 he got like, yeah, as you said, three hundred and 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:04.760 sixty four. 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.440 So what's Trump's number one priority here? What is he 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.320 doing in the next few hours, in the next few days. 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:13.800 Well, that's a good question. I think he's probably going 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:15.680 to have a press conference at Mara a Lago. I 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:17.920 think that's already been scheduled, and he's going to talk 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.040 about this. What he will say, I think is what 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.000 he has been saying in the many press conferences that 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.320 he held all during this New York Attorney General's trial. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.679 He's going to say that this is a witch hunt 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.760 that Letitia James has been after him. Letitia James campaigned 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.880 on getting Trump. And also he's going to say that 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.680 the people in this case, like the Deutsche Banks, the lenders, 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.079 had no complaint here, and in fact, they didn't there 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.920 weren't any you know, lenders testifying, Oh, we feel really 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.040 bad because we got swindled. So they said, well we 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.400 might have charged more. So he's going to say everyone 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.400 was very happy. Trump is a brand. It was, so 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.360 it's going to be the same thing. I can't imagine anything. 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.000 Different, he Gregor. 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:01.800 I want to bring you back in here because one 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.280 thing that keeps crossing my mind is the way that 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.160 the former president's sons were implicated in this as well, 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.880 and that they have been actually banned as well from 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:14.240 doing certain things. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:14.839 What do we know. 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.280 About the way that the Trump family is affected by 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:21.920 this ruling today. 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.920 Well, according to the trial and the findings of fact, 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.679 you know, the sons in particular, not only unlike Ivanka, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.240 who was severed from this and is not part of 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.760 this in any way, the two sons were helping to 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.160 run the business for many years until Trump became president, 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:39.440 and then in fact we're running the business on his 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.079 behalf when he was president. And that's in particular where 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.720 a couple of the charges involving insurance fraud came up 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.679 that they signed off on and were actively involved in 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.600 presenting numbers to the insurance companies that were not, you know, accurate. 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:52.559 They were overstated. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.959 You know, here's I found the part that I it's 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.680 about the prior cancelation of the business life licenses. And 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.280 the judge writes that there was partial summary judgment and 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.679 the Appellate Division First Department has stayed this relief the 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.360 cancelation of business light licenses, penning the final disposition. He said, however, 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.440 as going forward, there'll be a two tiered oversight, the 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:19.560 independent Monitor and the Independent Director of Compliance of major 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.400 activities that could lead to fraud. Cancelation of the business 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:26.880 license is no longer necessary, so he basically took that back. 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:29.400 Hey, I just want to take a break and remind 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.480 everyone where we are right now, if you're just now 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.840 joining us. The former President Donald Trump and his real 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.160 estate company suffered a major defeat in New York's civil 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.760 fraud suit over his inflated asset valuations. This after a 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.600 judge barred the former president from running any business in 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:45.920 the state for three years and ordered the return of 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.320 three hundred and sixty four million dollars in illegal profits. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:54.479 That verdict Friday by Justice by Justice Arthur Engron in Manhattan, 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.679 is a threat to Trump's real estate empire and is 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.839 the latest legal setback as he campaigns to return to 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.199 the White House. We should notice two eldest sons, Donald 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.240 Trump Junior and Eric Trump, were also found liable and 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.520 barred from being officers of a company in New York 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.560 for two years. I want to bring back Bloomberg News 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.079 reporter Greg Ferrell joining us on the phone. Also, we're 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.839 joined by Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grosso here in 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:20.600 the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio. Greg, as we take a 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.320 step back and think about all of the challenges that 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.920 the former president faces legally, can textualize this one for 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.120 us and where this sort of falls on the uh, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.680 just just how bad this is for him and his empire? 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:40.880 Well, it's very bad for his business empire, okay, you know, 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.280 and it's more serious I think than a lot of 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.400 us like presumed because criminal is worse than civil, that 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.959 the real danger to him was all these criminal cases. 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.559 But this is, you know, turning out to be far 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.280 more damaging, I think than many of us realized, you know, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.800 both financially in terms of the public relations hit, in 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.960 terms of the exposureusiness practices being laid out in such 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.040 clear detail. And yes, we all knew about Donald Trump, 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.720 you know, certainly by the time he became president afterwards, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.240 but this is for all the world to see factual 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.440 findings about the way he operated his business for you know, 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.080 it was only a decade that came under review by 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.640 the ags, obvious, but exactly much longer. 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.840 Greg, we heard your phone ringing. There's a lot going 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.439 on back there. Yeah, we're gonna I'm gonna let you go, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:27.000 always ringing. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.520 Thank you, sources, sources. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.120 And not thank you enough for joining us. It's Bloomberg 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.960 News reporter Greg Farrell joining us on this breaking news 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.959 this Friday afternoon. Still what with us is Bloomberg News 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.800 legal analyst June Grosser. We're not letting her go quite yet. 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:43.040 We're also going to bring in Bloomberg Politics contributor Geenie Shanzeno, 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.000 who joins us. Genie, I want to I want to 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:46.760 go to you for the politics part of this. Emily 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.000 asked a great question a few minutes ago about the 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:54.320 political effects of this. Does it matter to President Trump 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.000 supporters that this ruling has come down in the civil 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:57.600 fraud trial? 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.760 Yeah, I think the fair answer is, we really don't 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.959 know the evidence we have so far is that on 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.920 all of these indictments and trials, he has been fundraising, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.400 and as we all know from looking at the polls, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.440 his support has only grown. However, we are now getting 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.880 I mean, this is all unturned territory politically, but now 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.120 that we are seeing these verdicts come down, it is 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:26.839 possible that this does negatively impact him, even with his 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.920 core supporters. Because we don't have any test of this 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.800 kind of thing in American history, we really don't know. 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.720 We do have some polls which say that if he's 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.360 convicted of a crime that people will not vote for 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.960 him for president, we don't know if that extends to something, 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.760 you know, civil like this. So I don't really have 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.640 a great answer for you on this except to say 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.760 I can't imagine a world and I hope I am 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:57.760 not being Pollyennish, in which somebody being convicted and indicted 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.640 this much does have a negative impact on their chances 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.199 of being elected president. So I think a fair thing 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.120 to say this is not good news for him in 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:12.440 any way, but especially politically, because it's not just this trial, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.880 but the cumulative effect of all of these trials, the 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.720 criminal ones which we know are just starting in a 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.480 few weeks in New York and then continuing around the 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.880 country to get the four criminal ones in and of 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.320 course the civil ones are just the beginning. 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.760 So I just have to add to this. So he 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.280 went this week to He's been going to a lot 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:38.760 of these different court hearings. As he went when the judge, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.880 Judge Mrchahn, said that set the trial date for his 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.440 New York hush money payment trial for next month. So 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.720 he went to one in Florida where it was an 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.840 in camera hearing, so it was just the defense team 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.960 with the judge Aileen Cannon, and he decided to go 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.000 and before that he alerted everybody. He said, I'm back 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.000 in court again. He sent out an context, I'm back 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.320 in court again. I think he's doing well being back 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.400 in court. I think he's campaigning the from the courthouse steps. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:15.640 He's convinced his supporters that this is all a witch hunt, 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.640 that for example, classified documents, Well they didn't they didn't 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.560 go after Joe Biden for classified documents. Why are they 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:24.160 going after me for classified doctors? 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:25.760 Special Council's report last week? 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.080 Yes, but you know, right, But I'm just saying I 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.880 think that he does very well, because he campaigns from 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:38.440 the courthouse and everyone picks up his the stuff that 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.520 he says, where as if he was on the road 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:42.960 at a rally, everyone's not going to pick it up. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.360 But when he comes outside the courthouse and says it's 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.400 very unfair, you know, for example, when he did it 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.680 this week, when Judge Merschaun set that trial date, he said, 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.680 this is not fair, this is not justice. So I 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.760 think he does very well. If there's a criminal verdict, 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.560 I think it might be different, But a civil verdict, 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.560 this is really beyond most people. I think, Oh, he 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.280 lied about how much money he made. I don't think 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:12.640 most people see that as something as bad as a 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.640 criminal conviction, because it's hard to understand. First of all, 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:17.960 it's hard to understand it's about business record. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.120 Right, and I think perhaps people might I've heard people 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.480 say the same thing about the covering up the hush 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.800 money paid to Stormy Daniels, for example, like that, I think, 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.240 you know, I've heard the comments that some people might 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.720 find that one frivolous versus the actual criminal charges, because. 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.480 Also in that case those are normally misdemeanors, and Alvin 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.200 Bragg didn't want to bring a case with just misdemeanors, 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.560 so he upped it to felonies by hooking it sort 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.760 of to federal charges of election against election law. So 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.080 I mean, that's the problem with that case. It's not 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.840 just Michael Cohen's going to testify, because you know, the 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.760 prosecutors are used to having witnesses with problems testifying, But 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.240 it's because of the legal theory behind it that that's 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:02.600 a problem. I think that case. 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:04.119 Hey, Jennie, come on in here and weigh in on 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.000 what June said. The idea that the former president is 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.399 energized by campaigning in quotes on the stairs of the 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.359 courthouses versus being out there on the campaign trail. 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:15.119 Do you agree with that? 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.439 You know, I think he knows he needs the money 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.520 to fund all these cases, and he has been fundraising 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.919 off of this. But I still go back to the 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:30.119 fact that we are in a situation where people are 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.600 going to have to make a choice if both Joe 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.920 Biden and Donald Trump are the nominees. Between the two 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:40.080 of them, neither of them are beloved, certainly, but the 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.640 reality is is this race is going to be won 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.119 or lost in the moderate independent middle and six or 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.080 seven swing states where the Bloomberg Morning Console poll has 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:55.720 been doing their research, and it is really difficult for 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.199 me to imagine that this is a selling point that 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.200 will help get Donald Trump more votes than he had 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.879 in twenty twenty when he lost to Joe Biden. So 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.119 you know, in the short term, yes, he's going to 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.320 try to fundraise off of it. He's going to try 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.800 to make the best of a situation. But by no 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.439 stretch of the imagination do I believe that this is 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.719 a you know, a ticket into the presidential nomination or 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.280 the presidency itself. I mean, this is a man fighting 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.280 for his life, his businesses, and the future of his 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.919 children in courts around the country in both civil and 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.280 criminal cases. And I am hard plasked to believe that 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.600 the American public in the end views this as a 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.040 selling point and a jumping off to the presidency. That's 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.400 why we heard Nikki Haley say today, and she's been 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:50.719 screaming from the rooftops that this man brings chaos and 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.480 people didn't want it in twenty twenty, and I'm hard 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.080 pressed to believe that they will want it, or more 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.040 of them will want it in twenty twenty four, which 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.280 will put him over the top. So does it help 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.520 his base and potentially you know, get in the nomination. 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.720 You know, maybe, but let's not forget that the nomination's 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.439 likely going to be wrapped up even before the trial 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.000 starts in the Alvin braggcase that you and June were 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:14.920 just talking about. 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.040 What does the Republican Party make of this? What do 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.000 you think how are they going to come out and 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:21.399 react to this news? 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.040 You know, if history is any guide, they will support 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.240 Donald Trump. The statement we just heard from his lawyer 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:30.760 about a witch hunt will probably be at the top 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:31.879 of their lips. 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:32.639 You know. 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:37.000 The stunning thing is, besides Nicky Haley, very few Republicans 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:41.760 in elected office have come out and said anything about 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.120 this case in particular, except that Donald Trump is being 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.280 victimized by the New York courts. So I suspect that 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.359 will happen. And to Tim's point, I think you echo 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.120 what we all feel is that this is exhausting. Nobody 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.080 quite can keep track even when you watch it daily, 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.359 as to what in case we're talking about when, and 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.320 you know, this is going to have an impact, a 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.600 cumulative effect on him in the polls, if not in 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.320 the short term, in the long term because it is 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.800 utterly chaotic, in Nikki Haley's words, and exhausting for voters. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.040 Genie, I have some not so great news for you. 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.879 November is still many months away at this point. Oh, 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.399 don't say it, okay, Hey, really appreciate both of you 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.760 joining us. That, of course is Bloomberg News Legal analyst 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:33.199 June Grosso here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Also 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:38.320 with us this afternoon, Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeanie shan Zeno. 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.320 We have with us right now. One of the reporters 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.640 who has been covering this trial, Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Manhattan 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.359 Federal Courthouse and Legal Enterprise reporter, joins us here in 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.479 the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Pat, good to see you, 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.119 Thanks for coming in. I know there's a ton of 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:59.480 news today. This trial ended a while ago, right, It's 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.679 been some time that we've been waiting for this decision. 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.240 Yeah, and we also suffered through thirteen weeks of trial testimony, 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.200 so it's been very long. It started in October and 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.640 it went for weeks and weeks and weeks, and they 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.119 finished with testimony in mid December, and then the judge 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:18.320 camp had everyone come back after Christmas holidays for closing arguments. 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.679 We expected this was going to come out earlier. And 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:23.359 then there was a wrinkle in the case where the 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:26.040 judge found out that one of the witnesses proffered by 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:32.960 Donald Trump, the former Trump Organization financial officer Alan Weiselberg. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:39.280 He understood that their DA was actually considering prosecuting him 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.119 for perjury. 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.119 I just want to bring a headline forgive me, you 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.840 have not seen this yet, but the Trump fraud verdict 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.960 exceeds four hundred and fifty million dollars with interest, this 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:52.119 according to the Attorney General. What's your response to that? 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:56.040 Well, I mean, this is a penalty that's really significant 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.080 for Trump. He's always apparently it's affecting him in the 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:01.560 pocketbook where it hurts the most for him. This is 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:03.959 a lot of money, and it's a lot of money personally, 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.760 he's on the hook for more than three hundred and 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:09.439 fifty million, as well as his sons are going to 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:12.440 have to pay. And well, the ag, the New York 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.119 Attorney General, had sought a ban from working in New 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.440 York State for twenty five years for life. For him, 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.240 it's three years. But the guy you know, three years 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.479 is three years, so it's all very significant and with 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:28.479 accrude penalties in all the extras added up, it's a 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:29.760 lot of money. 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.960 Where does it stand to in the context of other 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.880 cases and other fines, like can you put this into context? 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.000 How much money? You know, four hundred and fifty million 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:42.480 dollars with interest the other three hundred and sixty four 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.840 million dollars. How does that compare to other cases throughout history. 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.000 Well, we just it's a pretty huge rulane for a 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.520 family company, that is, you know, the guy prides himself 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.359 as being this great billionaire who's been a successful businessman, 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.960 who boasted when he was testified that he has four 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.720 hundred million dollars in cash. Now, I don't know whether 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.760 that number was in the judge's mind when he when 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:10.879 he was trying to factor how much money to penalize Trump. 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.120 It's obviously significant as well if you think that this 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:17.040 comes on the heels. Just a couple of weeks ago, 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:20.440 we have the verdict against Donald Trump. He's been ordered 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.720 by a Manhattan federal jury to pay eighty three point 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:26.800 three million in the Egen Carol sexual assault case and 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.399 defamation case. This is all adding up and it's a 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.240 and Trump obviously was very concerned about this case because 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:35.879 he attended it a lot. 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:38.200 Okay, a question that I'm getting over and over again 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:40.359 from people who are watching, people who are listening, is 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:43.760 they hear about big figures in cases all the time 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.800 that end up not ultimately being paid because they go 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.480 on appeal. We just had David Weston on with us, 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:52.480 who who said that, well, in New York is unique 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:54.360 in the sense that he actually does have to put 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.000 up this money even if he appeals this. Talk to 0:23:57.000 --> 0:24:00.159 me about what happens moving forward and when the or 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.720 a president will actually have to pony up this what 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:04.880 more than four hundred million dollars at. 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:07.360 This point, Well, what will happen in a process by 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:10.160 appeal he'll have to put up He'll have to get 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:12.359 a bond. It's almost like a bail bond thing, but 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:15.320 it's a bond to basically ensure that the money gets 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:17.800 put like in an escrow account, so it'll get paid 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:20.520 and it won't get furthered away. But what's interesting, but 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.200 some of those other verdicts that get reduced is those 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:25.840 are damages verdicts. You know, you think a jury says 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.359 this person's gotten injured by two hundred million dollars in 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.000 a car accident, and it gets reduced down to maybe 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:35.119 thirty million or twenty million. This is different because this 0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:40.080 is disgorgement. This is penel financial binds. The judges found 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.719 that he improperly profited. So if you think about it, 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:46.880 he sold that Fairy Point golf course in the Bronx 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.800 made a substantial sum of money, hundreds of millions of 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:51.960 dollars in profit, so that was one of the things 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:56.800 they cited. He sold the old post office in Washington 0:24:56.880 --> 0:25:00.760 and made a substantial profit. The ages argue that had 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:04.440 he not gotten these great terms and lied about his finances, 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:07.639 he would have never gotten these great find lending terms 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.199 from lenders like Deutsche Bank, and then he would have 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:12.280 never been able to buy it, let alone be able 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:14.920 to flip it over and make it into a luxury 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:19.879 you know, like the hotel industry. And that's what this 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:22.320 is different about. It's not like a damage is where 0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:25.560 a jury verdict gets reduced. This is a judge finding 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:27.600 this is improper profits. 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:30.359 To what extent is the ruling of victory for New 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:32.200 York Attorney General Leticia James. 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:36.679 It's a huge victory because I mean having attended the trial, 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:40.199 he was very angry with her, and every day he 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:42.600 would come out that he attended the trial, he'd have 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:45.560 a little mini press conference where he'd denounce her. He 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:47.800 would say that she should be looking for migrants and 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:53.000 not prosecuting bringing this lawsuit, and there were lots of 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:58.639 mean exchanges and there was no love lost. Apparently it 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:00.879 is a victory for someone who who says that she 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:04.119 wants to hold Trump responsible for what the fraud he 0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:07.440 did on the lenders and insurers. 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:14.320 Okay, pat contextualize this for me, because as of a 0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:17.159 few weeks ago, the president, the former president, excuse me, 0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:18.960 faced ninety one felony. 0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:20.160 Charges in four separate cases. 0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:22.960 They range from conspiring to defraud the US and his 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:25.840 efforts to overturn the twenty twenty election, this one to 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:28.400 falsify business records, and then also to cover up hush 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:31.000 money paid to an adult film actress. So that's sort 0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:34.840 of the boiler plate, right, Contextualize this one for us 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:36.600 and where that kind of falls in the other legal 0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:37.880 challenges that he faces. 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:41.719 Well, many legal experts I've spoken to is you know, 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:44.320 if you think about Donald Trump and who he says, 0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:47.240 he is his whole foundation of his being and his 0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:53.440 resume is based as this basically five star New York 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:57.120 City developer who brings you these luxury as his son 0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:00.520 called them, sexy buildings. Do you know Trump Tower and 0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:04.280 forty Wall Street, these marquee properties that are you know, 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:08.440 he is the consummate New York real estate baron. And 0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:13.199 now he's had this huge, basically take down by the 0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:16.560 New York Attorney General. But yesterday he's ordered to go 0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:19.840 to trial in March in five weeks on those thirty 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:23.960 four accounts of falsifying business records. And you know, it's 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:26.960 not been a particularly good week. And you can think 0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:29.560 of it that way. Many people who told me it 0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:31.760 says what Donald Trump really cares about is what's his 0:27:31.840 --> 0:27:34.639 bank account and what's in his wallet, and this is 0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:35.719 hitting him in the wallet. 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:39.800 We talked a lot about what this means reputationally for 0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:43.840 Trump in terms of will he be able to, you know, 0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:46.720 win the election with all of this news. But I'm curious, 0:27:46.720 --> 0:27:50.720 from your perspective, legally, what does this mean. Is there 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:54.760 any sort of ruling that would legally bar him from 0:27:54.960 --> 0:28:00.439 actually running for president and actually taking office because all 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:03.040 of these headlines, they don't seem to actually be like 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:06.720 preventing him from running and potentially winning an election and 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:08.640 then joining office. 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:11.560 One thing you have to remember is as if he 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:16.919 gets wins reelection, he could potentially pardon himself and basically 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:21.920 dismiss those indictments, the federal indictments, So the three federal cases, 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:26.560 the DC federal case, the Washington in Washington. 0:28:26.359 --> 0:28:26.439 The. 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:33.240 Florida case, so he could dismiss those cases. The Manhattan 0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:36.320 DA's case that was the hush money case. He couldn't 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:39.120 do that. So that still affects his freedom and his 0:28:39.280 --> 0:28:43.320 peril of possibly being convicted. And if he goes to trial, 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:47.120 this trial could take about apparently could bring us a 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:50.080 verdict in mid May. And if you think about that, 0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:52.400 and he could get convicted. Some people said to me 0:28:52.520 --> 0:28:55.000 that he'd be a first time offender. And what a 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:56.960 judge sent in hims to prison. It's like one in 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:59.880 a third to four years for each count, depending on 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:04.160 what the judge hears. And then you know, possibly Georgia, 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:06.880 whatever happens in there in the Fulton County Georgia case. 0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:08.760 But this is one of those cases. He could never 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:12.960 pardon himself. Because a state charges, you cannot there's no 0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:14.120 federal oversight. 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:17.320 Pat we have about twenty seconds. What's the next thing 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:18.000 that you're watching? 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:20.680 Well, and next thing, I'm getting ready for the Trump 0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:23.479 hush money case. So and we will expect an appeal 0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:24.840 out of this ruling today. 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:26.880 Okay, And what would dollar figures look like for the 0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:27.720 hush money case. 0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:30.640 It's not a penalty. It would be he could be 0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:31.920 convicted and go to prison. 0:29:32.000 --> 0:29:33.400 And that's a New York state, that's. 0:29:33.480 --> 0:29:36.080 Inhattan State Supreme Okay, you guys might call it for 0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:36.680 jury duty. 0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:39.880 That's a good point. And you were going to be 0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:43.800 busy too, so we really appreciate your time. That is, 0:29:44.080 --> 0:29:47.800 of course. Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg, Manhattan Federal Courthouse and Legal 0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:49.480 Enterprise reporter, joining us here.