Chimpanzee: A Conversation with Dr. Jane Goodall

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ebony Money and I'm Rick Schwartz. Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast is a production of I Heart Radio and San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, in international nonprofit conservation organization behind the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park. We have a special conversation planned. This talk is dedicated to one of our closest relatives, chimpanzees and humans share about of their DNA. These intriguing great apes have been known to make and use tools, eat meat, and have culture. These are just a few of the groundbreaking observations made by Dr Jane Goodall, the world renowned ethologist and world's expert on chimpanzees as well as a conservationist and activist. We are honored to have her on this show. She'll be speaking with San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance President and Chief executive Officer Paul bear Bold's about her ongoing commitment to protect both chimpanzees and the planet. Oh, this is such an exciting topic, Ebany. Dr Jane Goodall is respected worldwide for her groundbreaking studies of chimpanzees in the wild, from discovering that chimps use tools to understanding that they have and use social behaviors similar to humans. Her work has also spearheaded conservation efforts for chimpanzees throughout Africa. Today, we don't give a second thought to the fact that chimpanzees create and use tools from things in their environment. We know that they work together to hunt. They aren't just vegetarians. But here's the thing, we know all of this because of Dr Jane Goodall's work. At the time of her observations and studies, none of this, and I mean none of it was known to science. Rick. It's really remarkable the more you learn and think about Jane Goodall's story traveling from our home in England to what's now Tanzania to live in the forest and study chimpanzees. Her approach of actually sharing a habitat with the chimpanzees was considered innovative at that time. So how did scientists study primates before Jane began her work? Ebony. It may be hard for people to understand this today because so much has changed since Dr Jane Goodall first started her studies, and to be honest, I think we can attribute a lot of those changes to her and how she went about conducting her studies. Before Dr Jane Goodall went out into the wilds of Africa to spend time studying chimpanzees, the general attitude towards animals was that they simply did not have behaviors similar to ours. In fact, the approach to studying animal behavior was based on the idea that animals were just responding to stimulus in their environment. The idea that anything other than humans could show individuality, play for fun, hunt and make tools, well, that was not even thought to be possible. Rick, That's really amazing when you think about it. I'd imagine it probably shifted ideas about the separation between humans and wildlife. And what's so fascinating to me, and I'm sure too many of us who learn about Goodall's contributions to science, is that she began her research without any academic credentials. So what's your reaction to that part of her story? Well, I had got to be honest, epany, I think it might be one of the most powerful aspects of her story. You see, I hear from a lot of people, you know, in my position going out in public talking about what we do. A lot of people talk about how they want to do something for conservation or for wildlife, but they don't have a degree in science or the means to get that educational degree. And yet here we have Dr Jane Goodall, who was well read on wildlife and followed her passion to head out and make a difference at a time when women were not widely accepted to academia, much less heading out into the wilds of Africa for months on end. Her story is truly inspirational to anyone who feels there are barriers in the way of them following their fashion. I mean, just go for it. I like that, Just go for it. And Rick, I was surprised to learn that chimpanzees have been known to use plants for medicinal purposes. I don't know why I was surprised because chimpanzees have proven to be so intelligent, but using plants for medicine is next level. Is there anything that surprised you or stands out most from the discoveries of chimpanzees behavior. Oh, my, ann Ebony, Yes, next level indeed, and they really are amazing animals. And to answer your question when it comes to animal behavior. Nowadays, nothing surprises me anymore. I mean, with everything we know from Jane Goodall's work and the research that has been built upon the foundation of her work, it's also really impressive. Her field work, which started in the nineteen sixties spanned thirty years, transformed how we view chimpanze ease and shed light on their need for protection. More than sixty years after she immersed herself in the world of chimps, she continues to raise awareness about the threats they face and advocates for people to take action. Paul Barbauld has worked closely with Dr Goodall for over ten years and was recently named chairman of the Jane Goodall Institute's Board of Directors. During this time, they have become very close colleagues and friends. The two came together to talk about some of the highlights of her career, her passion for chimpanzees, and her role as an activist. We are chatting here today with a global leader for a planet, the remarkable Dr Jane Goodall. She's the founder of the janegold Institute, a global community conservation organization that advances her vision and work by protecting chimpanzees, inspiring people to conserve the natural world we all share. She is a U N Messenger for Peace. She was also recently named one of Time magazines hundred most Influential People in the World, and also recently received the Templeton Prize, honoring individuals whose achievements harnessed the power of the sciences to help humankind understand their place and purpose in the universe. She also went from traveling over three hundred days a year before the pandemic to finding new ways to inspire audiences around the world, including starting her very own podcast, The Jane Goodall Hope Cast. Jane has been a great inspiration to me, my family, and as someone I've had the unbelievable honor of being able to call a close friend for over a decade. Jane, thank you so much for joining us today. Well, thank you for inviting me. Paul. Well, I'm gonna start Jane our conversation today with your own origin story because I think it is so powerful. You met Dr Louis Leaky and made your first visit to Africa when you were only twenty three years old. Coming to Africa from England was not simply done in that air as global travel occurs today. But there is so much more to this story. Can you share this part of your journey with us? And where it began? Okay, well it began. I think it must have begun in my mother's womb, because I popped out loving animals right from the very beginning. I was taking earth worms to bed when I was one year old, according to Mom, watching them as I wondered, how are they moving without legs. I was lucky to have such a supportive mother, and she helped me find books about animals. There was no TV when I was growing up. That's how long I've lived on this planet. And when I was ten years old, I had saved up just enough money to buy a little book in a second hand book shop that I loved, and it was called Tarzan of the Apes. It took it up my favorite tree in the garden, and of course fell passionately in love with this glorious lord of the jungle, and my very jealous when he married the wrong Jane. This began my dream. I mean, I knew there wasn't a Tarzan, but I will grow up, go to Africa, live with wild animals and write books about them. Well, everybody laughed at me. How will you do that? You don't have money. We had very little money. World War two was raging. Africa is of unknown place, mostly unknown, full of dangerous wild beasts, and I was just a girl. Girls didn't do that sort of thing, not my mother, Jane. If you really want to do something like this, you're going to have to work really hard, take advantage of every opportunity, and if you don't give up, hopefully find a way. So that was what kept me on track and couldn't afford university. We didn't have enough money, just enough money for a little secretarial course in London. Got a job. I had to have a job, and the opportunity came with a letter from a school friend inviting me to Kenya. So, as you said, I was twenty three. Pretty amazing at that time that my mother just let me go off a loan on a boat because there weren't planes going back and forth in those days. And it was a journey that took nearly a month, a magical journey on the ocean. And so I arrived in Ambassa, went by train to Nairobi, stayed with my friend, and then somebody said, Jane if you're interested in animals, you should meet Louis Leakey. So I went to meet him at the Natural History Museum. He was curator and the rest is history. Jane. It's so incredible to me because people worry about their kids going down the street a few blocks and here you were going from England to Africa in a time where that just wasn't happening, and it took a hugely long time to get there. I think it's just extraordinary share with us when you ultimately got to Africa and you stepped off the boat and you started your journey in Gambay and you started to explore and obviously meet the chimpanzees over a period of time. I think you have an amazing period of time there where you were really just trying to understand how to connect with them, and you made several discoveries along the way, but you also met people along the way. Can you talk about the early formative time there? Okay? Well, when I finally got to Gombi, and it took Louis Leakey one year to get the money because who was going to give money to this young, untrained girl. But he got money for six months. The British authorities at that time it was Tanganika British Protectorate, and they said no, we won't take responsibility for a young girl going in the forest. In the end they said, oh, but you can't come alone. So again that amazing mother came with me for the first four of those six months, not to do the research up in the mountains, but just to be there in the camp. And for four whole months the chimps ran away from me. I mean, they take one look at this peculiar white ape and disappear into the vegetation. And Mom did an amazing job for me. She boosted my morale. But Jane, you found that peak and through your binoculars you're learning more than you think about how they nest the group's as they go around, in the kind of foods they eat, and so on. She also began a little clinic for the local people. And although she wasn't a doctor or a nurse, her brother was a doctor. She had very simple things like you know, as spirins and iodine and saline drips and things like that. She made some amazing cures. I found later she was known as a white witch doctor, and so she started for me a wonderful relationship with the local people, which has stood me in good stead ever since. But it wasn't until one of the chimpanzees, whom I named the it gray Beard because he had white hair on his chin. He began to lose his fear of me. And it was thanks to him I think we get closer that I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. I was the only person who had even tried to study gymps except one crazy man in eighteen hundred and something, and he built a cage by a victory. He wanted to see jimps, and for some reason he felt it would be best if he was naked in the cage and he smeared himself with baboon doun. Well, he didn't see any gymps. I'm sure that was a good reference point for future voyagers to not try that themselves. Yeah. Absolutely jokes. When we think about your journey to Gande, it transformed you from a cover girl for National Geographic in a lot of ways to a scientist. The discovery you made around chimpanzees intelligence, there's social dynamics and their tool use completely change our understanding of the intelligence and emotions of not only great apes, but all wildlife. This discovery thrust you into the spotlight in you went viral thirty years before that was a thing, and you felt compelled to follow that calling and really step out onto the world stage to share what you are witnessing in Gamba with the world. Can you share with us a little bit around the choice you made to step out in that moment and the reasons why, because I think they're incredibly powerful. Well, one of the reasons, you know it, was what I was learning about the chimpanzees. Leaky chose me because I hadn't been to university. He wanted to mind uncluttered by the very reductionist thinking of scientists pathologists at that time. But after a point after the two losing, he said, Jane, you have to get a degree. I want your scientific peers to take you seriously, no longer as a geographic cover girl. And he got me a place in Cambridge to do a PhD. I've never been to college. I was nervous. The professor's told me I'd done everything wrong. I shouldn't have given their chimps names. That wasn't scientific. They should have had numbers. I couldn't talk about their personality, their mind, or their emotions. Those were unique to us. I mustn't have empathy with them, because to be a good scientist you must be coldly objective. Well, fortunately I had a wonderful teacher when I was a child, and he taught me that in this respect, the professors were wrong, totally wrong, And that teacher was my dog, Rusty. You cannot share your life in a meaningful way with any animal and not know that we're not the only beings of personalities, mind and emotion. So anyway, I stuck to my beliefs and went back to Gombi, as you say, built up a research station. Best days of my I've out in the rainforest learning the inter connection of every plant and animal that makes up this wonderful web of life. And then in six I went to a big conference in Chicago which I helped to put together, bringing scientists from the six other chimp study sites. By them, there were six others, and it was mainly about chimp behavior, to discuss how it changes from one environment to another, if it changes, and that sort of thing. But at the same time we had a session on conservation and that was the shock seeing that right across Africa the chimpanzee numbers were declining and forests were going and it was so different from when I arrived. And so I went to that conference as a scientist, I left as an activist. I just knew I had to do something. It wasn't people say, how did you come to that decision? I didn't. It was just like you know St. Paul on the road to Damascus. He started off persecuting the Christians, he arrived to be a missionary for them. It was something that happened inside. And although it was sad not to be at Gombi, I never looked back. This is what I'm now supposed to be doing. So that began this initially far from virtual if it was by planes and buses and cars and boats and goodness knows what around the world talking about how amazing chimpanzees are, how like us they are, but how that teaches you to think, well, but we're different, how are we different? And also I wanted to talk to people about the state of the environment, the fact the forests were going, And as I was traveling around, I was learning more and more about what was happening in the rest of the world, things that we know only too well that have led the climate change and loss of biodiversity. So that's how it all began. You know. I think it's so powerful to hear you share that story, Jane, because you've inspired me to continue and pursue a path of passion and pursue a path of impact. I have to ask you what inspires you today and what gives you hope today? Well, I think what inspires me is the incredible people and amazing projects that I used to meet when I traveled around the world. I meet even more now because via Zoom you can meet so many more people in so many more countries. And we filled the news is the media is filled with gloom and doom, and yes, we do have to know what's going on. We need to know that we're destroying this planet. We need to know it's the only home we have. And how bizarre that the most intellectual creature, because that's what makes us more different from the other animals, the explosive development of our brain. How can the most intellectual creature be destroying its only home and we're doing that. We're polluting it, We're using chemical pesticides and herbicides that are actually destroying the very soil on which we all depend. We're polluting the ocean, we're cutting down the forest. You know it all people beginning to know. But although we need to know this and be inspired to do something about it, we also need to know the amazing and wonderful and extraordinary projects that are going on around the world. And I think Paul your position heading up the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, you see many of these amazing projects, many of these amazing people, and if others read about those things, that tends to make them think, well, they did it, he did it, she did it. I can do it too. I'm going to have a jolly good try anyway. And that's the way it works, and that's the only way that we will save life on the planet as we know it. I couldn't agree more. Jane. There are so many inspiring stories out there that it's a responsibility to share them with the world so more people can read about the more people can learn about them and be inspired. So I want to ask you about your vision for the future. What does a healthy planet look like to you? What what do we need to do to reach that? Well? Paul, we need to do an awful lot. We need a completely new mindset. We need a new definition of what is success. And at the moment it tends to be about making money and getting a high profile and whatever field you choose to be in. But we need a definition which says success is when you lead a decent life. You've got enough, you haven't got way too much. You can look after your family. If you have a family, you can do the things you want to do. Instead of all this materialistic view of we need to get money and more money and more money. We need money, we need power, and that's led to this crazy notion that short term benefits are more important than protecting the planet for future generations. So we've got to change so many things. We've got to try and slow down climate change. We've got to slow down biodiversity loss. We've got to alleviate poverty, because poor people will destroy the environment simply to live. They will cut down the trees to make more land to grow their food, or to make money from charcoal or timber. And we need to at least think about the number of people and their livestock growing around the world. We need to think about the way we live and the ecological footprint we're leaving on the planet. We need to understand that the health of the planet, and the animals in the planet, and the humans on the planet are all into related and if one part of that equation is sick, that's going to harm all the rest. So that's why I spend so much of my time working on j d i's program for young people, Roots and Shoots. And Roots and Shoots is about young people getting together making their own decisions as to what they want to do to make this a better world. But they've got to choose three kinds of projects. Want to help people, want to help animals, want to help the environment. And what began with twelve high school students in Tanzania is now in sixty five countries and growing. It's got members in kindergarten, university and everything in between. And these are the young people who are changing the world, along with other youth groups that have a similar mission. So getting particularly young children out into nature so that they can experience it and take time off from this virtual world of being always on your cell phones and so on, and get the feel of nature so that you come to be fascinated then you come to want to understand it, and then you come to love it, and at that point you want to protect it, and then we will come to the sort of healthy world that I envision as a good future Faus and the rest of life on this planet. Jane, that is just a simply remarkable and powerful answer for you to share with our audience. So, as you know, we are a leading zoo pursuing conservation efforts, so I wanted to ask for your perspective on the role you see leading zoos playing in wildlife conservation efforts. Paul, I think that there's no question but that the good zoos are truly making a difference in the conservation world. I think one of the major roles that a good zoo can play is to train veterinarians to understand the physiology of zoue animals, and then they are in a position to train veterinarians who are working in the wild, or bring veterinarians over to the zoo and train them there, and of course raising money to help conservation groups. There's another important role that zoos can play, and then very important education, raising awareness, helping the general public to understand the value of certain animals, the role that they play in the natural world, understanding a bit about their behavior and their out in the wild. And so many people have told me, Oh, the reason I'm in conservation, the reason I'm studying wild animals is because at the first time I went to a zoo and looked into an animal's eyes. It's so powerful because I think the world has all been on a journey. I think zeus have continued to pursue an evolutionary path where we all learn more and we all grow with more knowledge. You mentioned the importance of training veterinary and care. We actually on one of our projects in Africa support Rotetti, an elephant sanctuary in northern Kenya, where we are training up skill building the local community. And that's so important because our role should be in transferring that knowledge and then moving to other locations to share that knowledge with other communities. I also want to share that when we were going through COVID, we had a guerrilla troop that got COVID in January, and you'll recall I called you and you said to me, thank goodness they are in your care, because I know they'll get the best care they possibly could, and hopefully we can learn how COVID affects them, and that was an incredibly powerful statement to me because it reminded me of our responsibility to not only care for these amazing individuals, but it's also a responsibility to share what we learn. We were able to provide a great value to our partners around the world because we were caring for guerrillas here with around the clock care modoring their recovery, and thankfully every single one of them recovered, and we couldn't be happier with that. So truly it shows the power of what a good zoo can do for the world. And so thank you Jane for your perspectives on that. Next question Jane I have for you is what's next as you look to the future. You've made it clear to all who you have spoken to that your focus is empowering young people. What else would you like to add when you think about the future of the planet as you look to inspiring that next generation. Well, I think to go back to something I said before, which is about the alleviation of poverty. When I started at Gombi in nineteen sixty but Little National Park was part of the great Equatorial forest belt that stretched to the West Coast, and when I flew over it in the late ease, I was shocked. I knew there was deforestation, but I wasn't prepared to see a small island of forests surrounded by bear hills. More people living now than the land could support, too poor to buy food from elsewhere. They were struggling to survive. And that's when it hit me. If we don't help them find ways of making a living without destroying the environment, we can't save chips, forests or anything else. And that becomes very clear when you look at poverty around the world. If you're in an urban area, in an inner city, perhaps if you're living in poverty, you can't afford to ask as we can when you go to buy your groceries. Did this product harm the environment? Was it cruel to animals? Like? Was it factory farmed? Is it cheap? Because of unfair wages paid to people in different parts of the world. If you're living in poverty, you have to buy the cheapest, usually junk food, which harms you as well as the planet, And so alleviating poverty is tremendously important, and learning how to reduce our own environmental footprint, and these are things which the young people just soak up. It's just nature to them to think in this way. Once you help them to understand, they run with it. They think of amazing things to alleviate poverty, and they help to raise money to alleviate poverty. And so what's next to me scaling up this program we have around Gombi because it's worked so very well, take care or to carry helping people find alternate lives, providing micro credit opportunities that they can start their own environmentally sustainable business, as scholarships to keep girls in school, to give them a chance of secondary education because us all around the world, as women's education improves, family size tends to drop. So this Takuri program has now spread into six other African countries and it's all ready to scale up because it's worked and people have risen out of dire poverty. We've still got a long way to go, but it's community lead. They have the tools in their hands. They can use smartphones to monitor the health of the forest and the wildlife there. And there are partners. Why because they understand now that protecting the environment isn't just the wildlife, it's for their own future. They need the forest to mitigate climate change, to affect temperatures, to affect rainfall patterns, and so on. So my vision for the future is growing the programs that work and spreading the word, and I shall do that for the rest of my life as long as I can. It's beautiful, Jane, and so important to really reference that. It comes back to the communities. I'm going to leave you with the opportunity to share your closing thoughts today. What final ideas or thoughts would you want to share with our listeners. For the young people out there, I just say to all of you listening what my mother said to me, follow your dream. If you have something you want to do, don't let anybody dissuade you. If you really want to do it, you'll have to work really hard, take advantage of opportunity, and if you don't get up, you may succeed. But if you change your mind, if you suddenly realize this isn't for me, it doesn't matter. You've got your life ahead of you. Change direction, go the way that your heart is telling you. To follow your heart, and also to remember, every single day each one of us lives on this place, it we make some impact and we get to choose what sort of impact we make. Well. Thank you very much Jane for joining us today. You've personally transformed my life, and I hope that your words today have the power to transform others who are listening. As I mentioned earlier, you have your podcast called the Jane Goodall Hope Cast. I encourage all of you to tune in and listen to that podcast, along with our own Amazing Wildlife podcast. Thank you again, Jane. Okay, thanks Pool, Thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed learning more about chimpanzees and the role that Dr Jane Goodall has played in sharing her insights about them around the world. Be sure to subscribe and tune in. Next time, would we share the story of a nocturnal lizard like reptile with a third eye. I'm Abney Money and I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening. If you would like to find out more about San Diego Zoo Wild Like Alliance, please visit sdz w a dot org. Amazing Wildlife as a production of I Heart Radio. Our producer is Nikia Swinton and our executive producer is Marci de Peina. Our audio engineer and editor is Sierra Spring. For more shows from my heart Radio, check out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.