Nicole Gibbs

00:00:00
Speaker 1: If I'm viewing myself as a business, I'm starving my business.

00:00:21
Speaker 2: So here we are and beautiful home with your job.

00:00:24
Speaker 3: In case she Burg's thanks for having us, perfect, thanks for having me. A lot has been going off with you obviously, Yeah, I think this might be one of the first chats you're rinning after.

00:00:33
Speaker 4: Yes, definitely, yeah. I have not had many conversations about.

00:00:38
Speaker 1: It, definitely, not publicly, although I've been trying to share along the way on social media. But it's nice to get the full narrative out there, so it should be fun.

00:00:46
Speaker 3: I mean, you're known as being a really transparent, thoughtful, articulate and sort of like willing to engage player on the tour athlete along the way every step you've sort of been talking back towards what's the reaction been in terms of talking through the cancer diagnosis, how you're feeling, and then now post surgery.

00:01:02
Speaker 1: First of all, thanks, that's really nice thing to say, but yeah, it's been awesome. We had actually a conversation me and my fiance Jack a couple of days before going into surgery, and we were like, kind of, how are we going to handle this? Are we gonna be public? Am I gonna kind of keep it close to my chest until we have things worked out. And he kind of gave me the sage advice that I had been transparent about just about everything else, so it wouldn't really be me to not go through it somewhat publicly and share my experience. And we actually we had a conversation about how we wanted to frame it too.

00:01:39
Speaker 4: We were like, you know, is there a way that we can make this.

00:01:43
Speaker 1: Like not miserable and dark and shadowy and like bring some light to this process and also maybe help other people who are going through these things not feel like, oh my god, this is dark and scary and dire.

00:01:58
Speaker 4: And I think we really took that to heart.

00:02:00
Speaker 1: And like, throughout the whole time I was in the hospital, We're taking selfies, We're like joking, we had like rocky music playing, and I was like jogging down the hospital corridors with my little like machine sticking on me. So as weird as it sounds like, we try to have fun with it. And yeah, I mean, the TICS community has been incredible. I think it takes going through something like this to realize all the benefit that comes out of social media and just you know, the level of connection that we have to like fans and random people.

00:02:35
Speaker 4: You know.

00:02:35
Speaker 1: I think we complain about it a lot, like the negative things that come from it, but I've just felt so wrapped up and like love and support from everyone that it's been really meaningful for me, and I think in a lot of ways reinvigorated my like love of the sport of tennis.

00:02:52
Speaker 5: Okay, so I want to go just sort of go back a little bit too.

00:02:57
Speaker 6: We were talking on our way over here and and I said, just wanted to know because I think everyone worries about this at some point in their lives, and it doesn't happen to a lot of people, but I want to know the first thought out of your head when your doctor said the word cancer, Like the first I mean, did you go there as a as an athlete who's who's who's now being diagnosed with cancer?

00:03:19
Speaker 5: Or did you go to just being a human being who's just been diagnosed?

00:03:23
Speaker 4: Definitely human?

00:03:24
Speaker 1: And for some background on me, I have no idea why specifically, but for some reason, cancer has been my number one fear as a human being. I just like, I was like, if there's one thing I don't want to deal in life, within life.

00:03:38
Speaker 4: It's cancer. And I don't know if that's because you know, the treatments.

00:03:43
Speaker 1: Can be so harrowing, or you know, I have my grandmother went through breast cancer when I was young, and I think that had an impact on me.

00:03:52
Speaker 4: So I'm going to be honest, like I did not react with poise.

00:03:57
Speaker 1: It was actually a phone call because this was supposed to be like a walk through biopsy.

00:04:02
Speaker 4: My my oral surgeon was like, you know.

00:04:04
Speaker 1: This really looks okay, and based on the history of it, we think it's gonna be benign. Actually sent me to Cara Win's bachelorette party over the weekend and he was like.

00:04:13
Speaker 4: Oh, like have fun, it will be fine.

00:04:16
Speaker 1: And I got a call and I was alone at the house and he said cancer, and I like, kind of I was glazed over for the whole rest of the conversation. I don't really remember what we were talking about. But he didn't offer any additional details. Really, it was like, it's positive for cancer. I'm not a specialist. You're gonna have to consult with someone. Here's an appointment for two days from now. And so I think I was in shock for a moment, and then as soon as I got off the phone and I called Jack. I lost my mind. I definitely went into that am I gonna die? Like what's happening? Is my tennis career over? Like I went full melodramatic, like I was not measure.

00:04:57
Speaker 2: So is warranted in that case?

00:05:00
Speaker 6: But the athletic heart came to you like not only you're taken care of yourself, but you actually were like, what am I going to do with my life? You know, even if it's if it's a good diagnosis, since things that work out, or what is this going to do to me?

00:05:12
Speaker 4: Right?

00:05:12
Speaker 1: You know, I think immediately you go to your reference points. So I'm thinking, like, Okay, Vicky Duval went through something like this and she was out for a year and it's been really hard for her to get her body back under her.

00:05:24
Speaker 4: And you know, I've.

00:05:26
Speaker 5: Had a karina or arau also I went through.

00:05:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and a lot of players really struggle coming back after that.

00:05:32
Speaker 4: Clevenova, I know I had difficulty as.

00:05:35
Speaker 1: Well, and yeah, so definitely my first thought was the issue of mortality and hoping that I wasn't going to die, and then you know, definitely within a few hours, you know, I was looking at Jack saying, is my Ted's career over?

00:05:50
Speaker 4: Like what does this mean?

00:05:51
Speaker 1: And you know, I was really fortunate that it ended up being a diagnosis that was not that dire. But when you're living in that uncertainty, I think that's almost the hardest element. As soon as you like have the next step and you're like okay, like there's something to do, right, Yeah.

00:06:08
Speaker 3: And I remember you went pretty soon after on social media to talk about it. You went on morning programs to sort of talk about it in terms of detection.

00:06:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was actually bizarre.

00:06:19
Speaker 1: That was super bizarre because I announced it on a Monday. My surgery was scheduled for Friday, and my mom works at Western Dental, and so her firm's PR agency reached out to me and was like, do you want to come on the Today Show tomorrow? Sure, on a Tuesday, like to talk about you know, preventive healthcare. And I was like, again, I just felt like out of body. I was like, I mean, sure, yeah, but you know, I had had some processing time by that point. Originally my surgery was scheduled for earlier.

00:06:57
Speaker 4: I think like May, early in May, and.

00:07:01
Speaker 1: Then my doctor had given me the go ahead to actually delay surgery by a couple of weeks because he said my tumor wasn't that aggressive, and so I went and played a couple more tournaments just in case I can push my nose into Madraw Wimbledon and give myself Wow, yeah, an extra week to come back on the back end.

00:07:17
Speaker 5: Did people know about that when you went and played?

00:07:20
Speaker 4: No?

00:07:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean you can't do that like whatever, I like tell everyone, hey.

00:07:24
Speaker 4: I have cancer, like good luck against me tomorrow, like.

00:07:27
Speaker 6: Well not necessarily just like public Like did people know about it?

00:07:33
Speaker 5: Yeah no, no, that's.

00:07:35
Speaker 2: Was it a different feeling. So yeah, the court were like okay, breath.

00:07:38
Speaker 4: It was a little bit of everything.

00:07:41
Speaker 1: The first week, I actually felt really good because I came in with such low expectations for like what my mental fortitude was going to be, and I actually made quarterfinals and then lost to that Juvon girl who's really good. I think she she's a good tens player, So I was like, oh, okay, cool. And then the next week I think it got more real because that was like the last tournament before my surgery, so I knew as soon as I lost, like I was gonna have to go home and confront that and I actually had a colossal like mental breakdown. Was up like six three two oh in my match started playing absolutely terrible and like mid third set, just like went.

00:08:20
Speaker 4: To town on a racket and everybody in the crowd is just like, oh, like what down? Yeah exactly, I mean it happens. Yeah, it's like bi annual.

00:08:32
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, keep straight, I've seen one of the byes the annuals.

00:08:37
Speaker 1: Well, see then it can't even probably be bi annual if she's seen one, so it might be more often than that.

00:08:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, no, I I definitely boil over sometimes. And that was that was an example.

00:08:47
Speaker 2: Well in this case completely justified.

00:08:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was still embarrassing because.

00:08:52
Speaker 6: The court was were you, you know, because when you're on the court obviously thinking about, you know, hitting the ball here and doing that and you know, blah blah blah, were you like constantly going in and out of like this stite of like am I gonna die? And you're not gonna die? But you are gonna win this? Like basically like did you were you out there thinking?

00:09:11
Speaker 1: Fortunately, fortunately by that point I knew that there wasn't very unlikely to kill me, and then it was almost certainly a surgical cancer that it would be like a one and done situation.

00:09:22
Speaker 4: So at least I didn't have that out there.

00:09:23
Speaker 6: You didn't change your like you know, when you miss a shot and you're like kill kill me, You're like, no.

00:09:28
Speaker 5: It didn't mean that, Yeah exactly.

00:09:30
Speaker 1: It is crazy how like there's just like a magnification on every like little phrase like that.

00:09:36
Speaker 4: You'll say like kill me and you're like no, no, exactly. No.

00:09:42
Speaker 1: But one thing I did notice is I like my mind would passively go to this like really entitled place where I was like, oh, well, like I have to deal with this you know, bullshit off the court, So like why am I not? Like why am I not being like given the win? Essentially they did not and yeah exactly, And no, I just meant like cosmically I felt like I was owed something and I was like aware I was having this like existential crisis on court. I was like that's ridiculous, Like I was talking to myself. I'm like, you can't be that, Like I don't know, it was.

00:10:18
Speaker 4: It was crazy.

00:10:19
Speaker 1: I was not in any sort of like place to really Yeah, it was a cool, like all of this has been such a cool, like self social experiment, like just seeing how like I handled different situations, and like, you know, there are moments where I've felt really weak, but there are also moments where I've been like, wow, like i just went through my literal biggest fear and I'm now on the other side of that.

00:10:45
Speaker 4: And yes, it could have been way, way worse.

00:10:47
Speaker 1: Like I'm not pretending like I had it bad, but like, you know, there's something really empowering about that. Especially with my history of like depression anxiety, you would think, like, you know, I thought immediately, I was like I can't You're going to go down into.

00:11:01
Speaker 4: I was like, I can't handle this.

00:11:03
Speaker 1: You know, I've been off of medications for about a year and been doing pretty well, but you know, my first thought was like this is too much.

00:11:11
Speaker 4: For someone really, Yeah, exactly.

00:11:13
Speaker 1: But I got some good advice from friends who had been through it and also my psychiatrist that was like, you can let yourself have some sand X.

00:11:21
Speaker 4: During this process.

00:11:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that allowed me to at least like get a good night's sleep every night and wake up at least ready to take on the day.

00:11:29
Speaker 3: There's more more to sort of discuss linearly about this, because obviously we're catching you, you know, in recovery, and you're sort of pivoting forward. But I kind of want to take something that you just said, because I mean, one of the reasons I think you are so widely admired and certainly somebody who I reached out to early when we were making a magazine.

00:11:44
Speaker 1: To write for us.

00:11:45
Speaker 2: When the offer is still on the table.

00:11:46
Speaker 4: Tell me to do that.

00:11:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, whenever you have a free moment, which you know understand the way you haven't had many, you know, is just this concept of entitlement. You know, you are, to your immense credit, willing to sort of wade into conversations. Obviously a lot of this plays out on social media, you know, really really talking about honestly things that we try to get into in our magazine as well, you know, the state of the world, using tennis as a lens, obviously, using your experience as a lens to talk about inequality, entitlement. Your kid from Cleveland and now you're living in la and you know, you've seen a lot of the world talk about that in terms of like having had this experience, you know, because it strikes me like you've seen like one of the least entitled professional athletes who has a crazy life that I've never sort of encountered. So so now hearing like, oh I felt entitled, like I was on the wind, you know that.

00:12:32
Speaker 2: How has that changed for you?

00:12:33
Speaker 4: Right it?

00:12:34
Speaker 1: I think it's hard to go through a situation like that where you're like staring even for forty eight hours, like staring down the varrel of your own mortality, and not have some sort of like epiphany or just like perspective shift. And you know, I remember one of the first things Jack said when we got the diagnosis was, if this isn't the worst thing that ever happens, stuff, it's gonna be the best thing.

00:12:58
Speaker 4: And we've been trying to build on that and just.

00:13:01
Speaker 1: Like use that momentum in a way, I think one of the most immediate takeaways and you know, we're talking about entitlement here. I feel entitled to my tennis career, And in a moment, I saw it flash before my eyes, and I just realized how much I cared about it. Like obviously, like we all have our ups and downs, and we have our moments and we're like, fuck this, I want to quit tennis. I'm over this, And for me, it was kind of every third week, and I was like, why am I doing this? This is like, you know, so frustrating. I've been spinning on a hamster wheel between one hundred and ten and one hundred and fifty in the world for the past like two years.

00:13:43
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, you know, in.

00:13:45
Speaker 1: That like terrible like kind of limbo sometimes or what I was perceiving as terrible, And you know, now it's like, how terrible.

00:13:54
Speaker 4: Is that really?

00:13:55
Speaker 1: And like at least I realized, like if I weren't to ever quit tennis, how important it would be that that were on my terms. And it just made me realize like how much I still felt like I had to do within the game. And then you know after as well, like in terms of like what I use my tennis for. And so while I'm rebuilding right now, I'm really looking to kind of like change the way I think about my tennis. I think previously I was managing this like financial bottom line where I was like, oh, I have to be like, you know, making money at all times, otherwise I don't consider myself like a successful professional athlete. Now, you know, with this experience behind me, I'm much more like how can I get myself to get the absolute most out of out of me in this tennis career.

00:14:46
Speaker 4: I don't care about the money.

00:14:48
Speaker 1: I just want to see how good I can get if I invest I really like, you know, surround myself with the right people.

00:14:56
Speaker 4: You know.

00:14:56
Speaker 1: The hard work has always come easy to me, but like make sure I'm you know, working the right way and on the right things. It was just the kick in the butt that I needed to really make sure all my decks are in a row and moving forward, I have a really clear plan.

00:15:10
Speaker 3: Well, you know, you cannot be making money as a professional athlete and having a tremendous impact going on the Today Show talking about prevention, talking about you know, positivity, talking about anxiety, talking about politics, and so to me, it's only sort of amplified. It doesn't surprise me that you handle this well. But it's still pretty remarkable.

00:15:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it gives me at least a little more spotlight right now. As weird as that sounds, like, people are interested in hearing from me right now, so to the extent that I can use like going through something like that to like, you know, again shed light on the things that I think are important or even if it's as simple as what I said earlier, just like taking people on a journey through illness that maybe isn't as like scary and like stigmatized as it normally is. I know for me, like I expect people to be kind of like dark and shadowy when they're going through things like that.

00:16:04
Speaker 4: So again, just I don't know.

00:16:07
Speaker 1: I sometimes truly feel all over the place because there's so many things that I'm really passionate about, and I think one of the things that is going to be really important for me moving into this like what I'm calling the second chapter or second half of my career is just going to be honing in on what I.

00:16:23
Speaker 4: Can be most effective advocating for.

00:16:25
Speaker 1: Whether that means like being more hands on with a specific charity or you know, focus focusing on feminism or focusing on you know, outreach for you know, minorities who don't have access to tennis in la. Whatever direction I want to take, I want to I want to take it with like a little more gusto and a little more yeah, a little more intention because right now it's kind of like I feel all these things that I'm like so impassionate about, but I'm not sure I'm lending anything to them because I'm not really like focusing my efforts.

00:16:58
Speaker 6: I just want everybody to know that while we're having podcast and your T shirt says female af which we all know, and it says by on the bottom, so female as fuck bye.

00:17:07
Speaker 5: Okay it needs to go bye.

00:17:09
Speaker 6: But no, but like it's, well, you know, I'm here for those things, kay, I'm here for the important stuff, like you know, the visual stuff that people can't see at home. But you know, one of the things also you say, it's like project, you know, your second life in tennis really because of what's happened to you. But also you know, one of the things that we talked to about today was you know the depression that comes after stopping your sport because you wake up every day and you have a purpose, whether it be going to the.

00:17:38
Speaker 5: Gym and you know you went.

00:17:40
Speaker 6: I think I know your scheduled is it's certain to read you practice. You went to the gym, you know, you had a meeting, you blah blah blah. And now you're talking to us. It's like every day there's a purpose and now all of a sudden, when tennis is retired, you're done.

00:17:52
Speaker 5: You wake up and go, oh, what am I? Who am I? What am I doing?

00:17:57
Speaker 6: So do you think about the process of you want to do after you've done playing, as well as the second part of your tennis you know, life after this scaree with cancer?

00:18:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, first of all, I definitely think about that, like, what is my identity going to be when it's not pro tennis player or even tennis player period, because you know, for most of us, I've been playing since I was three, So twenty three years out of my twenty six on Earth, I've had a tennis.

00:18:25
Speaker 4: Racket in my hand.

00:18:26
Speaker 1: And what is that going to mean when that's not how I introduce myself anymore.

00:18:31
Speaker 5: Well, don't worry, You'll always be the tennis player. Everywhere you go. There you're the tennis player.

00:18:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, like you're.

00:18:41
Speaker 1: Like you're saying, there, there will be a void of purpose, and I know well enough to prepare for that.

00:18:47
Speaker 4: But it's getting more and more real.

00:18:50
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not twenty one anymore, so I have to start looking at you know, what I'm going to do when traveling the world.

00:18:58
Speaker 4: Thirty weeks out of the year. Does it make sense for me anymore? You know? I want to.

00:19:01
Speaker 1: Settle down and have kids. What is that next chapter going to look like for me? I don't have the answer. I change my mind literally every day. Sometimes I'm like, jeah, I'm gonna go back to Stanford, and then I'm gonna go to law school and he's like what why? And then some days I'm like, Okay, we're gonna move to Maui and we're gonna just like.

00:19:21
Speaker 4: Surf all the time, raise like little grams who.

00:19:25
Speaker 5: Like get adopted. Yeah, if you do that, well, I'm up for adult Yeah, my parents know.

00:19:33
Speaker 1: But I definitely have the sense that even if I did something like the Maui plan that I would I would want to have a lot of purpose to my day and day out, you know, beyond parenthood.

00:19:45
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, so ply Okay, let's let's do a prequel, like we're gonna do a prequel Star Star Wars or Game of Thrones.

00:19:51
Speaker 5: Okay, go back to this girl.

00:19:53
Speaker 4: I don't know.

00:19:54
Speaker 6: Anyway, Well, go back to you know, we've had this situation happened in the Last School of Days where ash bodies want a Grand Slam.

00:19:59
Speaker 5: She's number one in the world.

00:20:01
Speaker 6: It's crazy, right, quit playing tennis for two years but she had to have an environment around her and people around her that were going, it's okay, Ash, if you don't want to play anymore, it's up to you, as opposed to I mean, people like me were in the locker.

00:20:13
Speaker 5: Room going, what are you doing?

00:20:14
Speaker 4: Are you kidding me?

00:20:15
Speaker 5: You just made another grand slain doubles, final dollars a year, blah blah blah. You know, just because I couldn't conceptionally.

00:20:23
Speaker 6: Think, Ash, you have the world, you can be so good and you're walking away like I couldn't believe it.

00:20:30
Speaker 7: But the story is she knew what she needed to do to be successful because Eric to keep playing was going to put her in a hole, like a depressing hole of like the wheels going, She's everyone expects.

00:20:43
Speaker 6: Her to be great, but she didn't quite make it, let's say, because she wasn't happy to make that decision at that moment to pull away. You went to college, like were you? So she was around parents that were not going to push her in a way she didn't want to go. So you going to college as opposed to trying to turn pro or turning pro once you'd won and been so dominant at Stanford, Like what was your parental guidance, because I think people at home need to hear this.

00:21:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, well my parental guidance was got.

00:21:14
Speaker 5: To hope it was good after that.

00:21:17
Speaker 4: No, No, it was amazing.

00:21:18
Speaker 1: And obviously I very arrogantly think I did everything the way that I needed to, and that's credit.

00:21:24
Speaker 4: To my college test.

00:21:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, my dad played college tennis. It was it was not consistent the whole way. I will say there were some pushes where my dad thought I should be homeschooling in high school, and I said, no, way, I can't. I've always been a social creature. I just like thrive on being in a classroom or being around other people. So, you know, he was definitely happy for me to make that decision, but we did talk about homeschooling several times. You know, I'm really fortunate he was a school teacher and so he prioritized education really highly.

00:22:00
Speaker 4: Started my mom. My mom's brilliant.

00:22:02
Speaker 1: She was like valedictorian our high school and it's now a CMO at a dental company.

00:22:09
Speaker 4: So she's yeah, she's.

00:22:11
Speaker 5: She's female AF.

00:22:13
Speaker 4: Yes, she is female AF.

00:22:15
Speaker 1: So I was really lucky that they just like prioritize education so highly, and I actually I had this weird thing in high school. I skipped my sophomore year so that I could The idea was I could go play a year on tour when I was seventeen before going to school to like kind of test the waters. But then when I got to age seventeen, I was like, first of all, I'm three hundred and fifty in the world, and second of all, I'm like four pounds and like way smaller and weaker than everyone else.

00:22:44
Speaker 4: And so I was like, Stanford sounds pretty good.

00:22:46
Speaker 5: Sure.

00:22:47
Speaker 4: My dad actually fought tooth and.

00:22:49
Speaker 1: Nail for UCLA because he wanted to keep me in his backyard, and I was.

00:22:52
Speaker 4: Like, absolutely not.

00:22:55
Speaker 1: So yeah, I ended up going to Stanford and then from there, like you know, as a credit to my parents, they were so incredibly hands off and just kind of let me make my decisions.

00:23:05
Speaker 4: My dad, I.

00:23:06
Speaker 1: Think, was like eyeing me suspiciously when I went back after my sophomore year because we weren't. I won the singles and the doubles that year, and he's like, Okay, what were you going to get out of college tis I was like, I don't have the team title yet, I need to go back. Also, I met this really nice guy, and so I went back for you know, one more year, and we did get the team title as twelve scenes, which was at the time historic, but Stanford has sensed one.

00:23:34
Speaker 4: Up to that. Yeah, maybe unbelievable, very rare this year.

00:23:39
Speaker 6: Yeah, no want this year, they want.

00:23:43
Speaker 1: I think they went in lower Sea.

00:23:47
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:23:47
Speaker 1: So I ended up defending the singles title too, which was a lot of pressure, knowing that I was going pro and knowing that that put a at the time thirty thousand dollars check in my pocket. I was like, I need this to start off my career. So yeah, I was really proud in that I've hurt. I wouldn't change it.

00:24:03
Speaker 6: Then, do you have conversations with people because I mean, obviously you know my relationship and closeness with Lisa Raymond, who in my opinion, could have turned pro. I mean, she was good enough as a player to turn pro, but wasn't mentally and you know, just felt the same way it wasn't ready wanted.

00:24:22
Speaker 5: To be in a team environment.

00:24:24
Speaker 6: And she also won back to back NT double singles titles and the team title the first year that she went there.

00:24:30
Speaker 5: Do you have conversations with parents and with some kids.

00:24:33
Speaker 6: Maybe, Now do they ever approach you or your dad or say, you know, should I or do you do you actively try and promote?

00:24:41
Speaker 1: Oh I heard, I've promote college so hard. I mean, the chances of making it on tour are just so catastrophically small.

00:24:51
Speaker 5: Wait, wait a second, say that again.

00:24:53
Speaker 1: The chances of making it on tour are just astronomically smart.

00:24:58
Speaker 5: And you want to nt double a singles tile.

00:25:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm still like fairly hacking it. Like I mean, I'm, you know, outside top one hundred, let's say that for most of my career. So yeah, I want to shake some of these parents sometimes who have their Yeah they're like fourteen year old kid who's ranked number eight in this section and they're homeschooling them, and they're like fast tracking them to the pro tour.

00:25:28
Speaker 4: I'm like, what what do you was talking you into this?

00:25:32
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's crazy, but it is the culture of tennis. I mean there was not a single day growing up training at USTA where I didn't feel pressure for you know, being in school or from just everyone at USTA.

00:25:53
Speaker 4: The expectation was if you.

00:25:54
Speaker 1: Were at a certain level, you were homeschooling and the fact that I wasn't homeschooling meant that I wasn't committed to tennis, And you know that was that was reflecting occasionally in the kind of resources that.

00:26:06
Speaker 4: I was able to get. And I will say to being diplomatic.

00:26:11
Speaker 1: USK has done amazing things for me and has provided me coaching through the years, But at the time, college.

00:26:18
Speaker 4: Was really not in vogue.

00:26:19
Speaker 1: And one time I was even told that I couldn't wear college here when I came to train at Carson. That was because that was promoting kids going yeah to college, which would be horrific.

00:26:32
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so you don't have to be diplomatic.

00:26:35
Speaker 6: You can be diplomatic, but I don't have to be I mean what they're like seriously the USTA.

00:26:39
Speaker 4: See.

00:26:39
Speaker 6: The thing that bothers me about that is that tennis is now it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Women are winning, Okay, ash body in Osaka. They're a little bit.

00:26:48
Speaker 5: Of an anomaly right now.

00:26:50
Speaker 6: You know, we're talking players and winning slams are in the late twenties, thirties. You know, that's the promoting part. We should be thinking about, how can we keep these kids that are really good in the sport for an extended period of time and sending them to college is not a bad option.

00:27:04
Speaker 5: That doesn't mean it's a failure.

00:27:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say I don't like what college tennis has done with the rule adaptations in terms for in terms of preparation for tour. I have heard from a couple of players that they think the the no AD and the modified scoring creates extra pressure which prepares you mentally. But I think that would have influenced me and my dad's perspective if that had been the case.

00:27:29
Speaker 2: Before, I made you more likely to go pro knowing that that's.

00:27:33
Speaker 4: What the possibly I think.

00:27:34
Speaker 5: So, yeah, I think it should be more about the pro scoring.

00:27:38
Speaker 1: System, yeah, or or the pro scoring system should be more more modernized instead, you know what I mean, Like it just needs to be a symmetry.

00:27:49
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:27:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, to be clear and to be fair, I think to the USTA, they're not they're in the business of creating tennis players, right, and if you're creating tennis.

00:28:00
Speaker 6: Players, or is it their business to create tennis in tennis environment.

00:28:03
Speaker 4: That's popular right right? Yes?

00:28:06
Speaker 1: But but you know, player development specifically is looking for where's my next arena? Where is my next like you know, major influential player, and someone like me is not likely to be that coming through college. I think, like, I think some of these kids are just so freaking talented when they're young, Like you're saying, like an Osaka or something like that, Like they just have the physical presence.

00:28:32
Speaker 3: You know, is should the USA's job be about minting stars or should be about growing the sport in all realms? Because to me, you're elite is a player obviously, but you have a ton to sort of say about it in a way that will I think, broaden the tent.

00:28:47
Speaker 2: That's why we.

00:28:47
Speaker 5: Started the magazine. That's what we're having conversations like this.

00:28:49
Speaker 3: It's about showing many, many, many iterations of the tennis experience and it's excellent, but it's also about who can sort of be a spokesperson who can sort of bring people in.

00:28:59
Speaker 2: I think to me, that's of the job.

00:29:00
Speaker 1: I mean, that's definitely part of the job, But like I don't know viewing it from like either a financial perspective or a business perspective, Like there's nothing like a superstar in terms of like bringing people into.

00:29:15
Speaker 4: A sport or like, you know, a story that.

00:29:18
Speaker 1: Captures everyone and like fortunately or unfortunately, that's usually the fourteen year.

00:29:24
Speaker 4: Old sensation who's just coming on the scene.

00:29:27
Speaker 1: I think people love that, you know, and like get really excited about that, or at least I think that's how the USCA conceptualizes it.

00:29:34
Speaker 2: That's been the path.

00:29:35
Speaker 4: So yeah, so I don't know.

00:29:37
Speaker 1: For me, it's understandable from a business perspective, and honestly, the culture has improved. I would say ten X like they're yeah, they're hosting college tennis matches.

00:29:48
Speaker 4: That's Orlando now, Like they're opening their arms a lot.

00:29:52
Speaker 1: You know. Since being on tour, I felt very supported, you know, in spite of or because of my college background, it hasn't really been an issue. So I think it's a couple leaps and bounds in the last like eight years or so, and in fairness.

00:30:11
Speaker 4: Along with the change in what the average as in the top hundred was.

00:30:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and we're seeing because fifteen years ago, a year twenty six and you're at one ten in the world, you should be long gone from tennis.

00:30:24
Speaker 4: It's not going to happen.

00:30:26
Speaker 2: It uses as a chance to sort of get back to chapter two. So chapter two is both.

00:30:30
Speaker 3: You coming back to the sport with a different perspective, using those moments, talking about impact, talking about sort of maybe pulling together holistically, all of these different things that interest you, and you know it sounds like it's still work in progress. But like as of today, right now, how is that sort of taken shape in your mind?

00:30:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't think I'm I'm that far down the path yet. I'm I think five and a half weeks out of surgery as of right now.

00:30:59
Speaker 5: So you have a competitive match, Yeah, I don't know. How do you think you're going to react when you go back?

00:31:04
Speaker 1: I really don't know. I know enough now, you know, not to try to predict it. No, my dreams have been notably.

00:31:13
Speaker 4: Silent lately, Like I've stopped dreaming since all of this happened. I think I have enough to stress.

00:31:17
Speaker 1: It out during my waiting hours that my prain is just like no, leave me on.

00:31:21
Speaker 6: I think more times like have you had a conversation with yourself like all right, okay, Nicole, when you walk on the court, okay.

00:31:28
Speaker 5: Just be normal done, like carrying on.

00:31:31
Speaker 4: I don't think there's anything like that, or should you.

00:31:33
Speaker 6: Wave on and like wave and everyone you know what I mean, Like you have those moments.

00:31:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't. I don't know.

00:31:39
Speaker 1: I think the one thing that has stood out to me as like kind of a mission statement for when I go back on the court is be a little bit less serious. I've always been so type A, like I must work the hardest and do everything perfectly. And you know, I think I need to let go of that. It's time, you know, I think it's it's a normal reaction to being on on tour, especially from a young age. You just start having this sensation if you can just control everything, that everything will work out well. But at the end of the day, I would rather watch like a Nick Krrios match than you know, like half of the players on the men's tour, because it's goofy and it's funky underhands.

00:32:26
Speaker 4: Start love it. I love it.

00:32:29
Speaker 6: And you know you share the same workiness with your male players that you love to watch.

00:32:34
Speaker 5: I mean, I love But you're obsessed with Bena.

00:32:36
Speaker 1: Well, I think I haven't spent as much time with Ben, but I've spent a lot of time watching Nick. And I think the fun thing is just that he doesn't take it that seriously, like and and he gets totally shout on for that.

00:32:49
Speaker 5: But like, I think that's great.

00:32:52
Speaker 6: The problem is so hard to get there right because you feel like, I mean, you tap into but if you pretend, not pretend, if.

00:33:00
Speaker 5: You think, oh it's don't take it so seriously enjoy it, you.

00:33:02
Speaker 6: Think, well, then you don't care enough, right giving you about that balance it is. But ironically, that's another thing that Asha think has done well stepping away is that you know, even when she wins, it's kind of like it's not just like on the top, it's kind of like she actually just enjoys playing now, you know.

00:33:20
Speaker 5: And I think Roger is the appear to me of it. You know, Roger can walk off the court and be like.

00:33:24
Speaker 4: It wasn't good exactly.

00:33:25
Speaker 1: He moves around and it's like crazy shots that are not the great. I think that's actually maybe the best example. Like Saber like starts like charging in on people serve like that's awesome, And I think, like I've been reflecting on you know, what entertains me in the world, like not just in sports, not just in tennis. If you go to a concert and the person you're watching is hitting all the notes like exactly, like that might not be a great concert, Like it might be a great song, but like you're not be like, yeah, meanwhile, we went to like a Nickelback concert a couple of years ago, and we had the time of our freaking lives, Like because there's so much energy and they're like having fun with it, making fun of themselves. I think, you know, if you can kind of like extrapolate those lessons and like infuse that into tennis, like maybe like a curious two point zero where it's like some of the antics without maybe the.

00:34:22
Speaker 4: Clear dread of being on a tennis court. Like, I think it's fun to watch someone enjoy themselves.

00:34:28
Speaker 2: And I think technical perfection, to your point, is not that compelling. Yeah, if you can find your way to sort of and it's not.

00:34:33
Speaker 1: Doing it for me right, Like I've been, you know, trying really hard and to be you know, technically perfect and work really hard and do the right things. And Okay, I've gotten to sixty eight in the world, which is nothing to shrug.

00:34:44
Speaker 4: Out, but it's not where I believe I can get.

00:34:47
Speaker 1: And you know, at some point, you know, the brave decision is to to do something completely disruptive.

00:34:54
Speaker 3: You're gonna get married in the fall you have you know, increasing you've always been somebody who's brought in the outside world to your tennis and your conception of it. You know, do you do you sort of? Are there other examples that you can think of, books, movies, concert.

00:35:06
Speaker 2: Experiences where you're like, oh, this is something I enjoy.

00:35:08
Speaker 3: Maybe that's something I can bring into tennis, or maybe that's something I can sort of bookmark.

00:35:11
Speaker 2: And be like, Oh, I'm gonna got back to you. When when this starts to look like it's on a wrap.

00:35:14
Speaker 1: Up, Yeah, I totally just blacked out. Former I didn't hear half of that question, so it happens.

00:35:21
Speaker 5: To me all the time of KEG because she excrapted.

00:35:24
Speaker 4: Just come out of Okay, sorry, I blacked back in.

00:35:29
Speaker 1: Yes, like books and movies, have been watching basic gets your You're like so interesting. This is when I've been I have literally the most perfect answer in that, and now I just messed it up.

00:35:40
Speaker 4: But we can edit. We're not we're not we're not.

00:35:45
Speaker 5: Had cancer.

00:35:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've lost some brain cells along the way floating around.

00:35:52
Speaker 1: I've actually been reading Shoe Doog lately, which everybody's been telling me to read for forever.

00:35:57
Speaker 4: And I'm like, yeah, Nike, I don't care. Nice yeah, Phil night book. Yeah.

00:36:03
Speaker 1: And I'm actually like, I feel like it's too profoundly perhaps like shaping my attitude right.

00:36:10
Speaker 4: Now, because his whole, like the entire book is just about how every penny the man ever earned he.

00:36:18
Speaker 1: Put it right back into the business to the point where they were insolvent for like fifteen years. And this is like the biggest sportings company in the world, bar nine.

00:36:27
Speaker 4: And I just like had this epiphany.

00:36:30
Speaker 1: I was like, I am such a penny pincher when it comes to like what I'm doing on.

00:36:34
Speaker 4: Tour, Like why, like you're literally not going like.

00:36:39
Speaker 1: If I'm viewing myself as a business, I'm starving my business right and I'm giving myself the absolute minimum resources. And then I'm like, wow, I'm so surprised that I had to melt down and poke a racket on the court when I'm staying at an Airbnb seventy two minutes away from the site, because it's.

00:36:54
Speaker 4: More like you know, it's more financially Yeah, And so I've kind of been a examining.

00:37:01
Speaker 1: Those kinds of decisions and seeing if I can knock a swear or two loose and kind of think about it differently, But you know, I think it plays in perfectly to what I'm talking about with on court stuff like just this hyper control needs to go.

00:37:13
Speaker 4: I need some inspiration, you know.

00:37:16
Speaker 1: That's what I need, and like whether that means, you know, bringing a new team member on, who can you know, inject a different perspective.

00:37:24
Speaker 4: Love my coach right now to death.

00:37:26
Speaker 1: He's been supportive and amazing through all of this, so definitely keeping him on board.

00:37:31
Speaker 4: But it's a usta setup.

00:37:33
Speaker 1: I'm sharing with another player who has priority, So it's priority one for me right now finding someone who can help me out in the weeks that we're not together, and you know he's fully on board with that and helping me find someone that's sorry.

00:37:46
Speaker 3: So you're really sort of willing to sort of look at anything, be like, what's going to get me anyway to my best sort of happiest place. Yeah.

00:37:51
Speaker 6: Well, I will tell you one of the things that I always said to myself early in my career was if I'm making you know, because obviously being a stry we fly a lot a lot, And I said to myself very early on in my career, I said.

00:38:04
Speaker 5: As long as I'm making the money.

00:38:06
Speaker 6: When I'm making money, I'm going to fly business class no matter what. I'm flying everywhere business class because if you know, I can afford it, I'm going to fly business gas because I don't do not want to be.

00:38:18
Speaker 5: Doing this job and being absolutely fucking miserable every time I.

00:38:21
Speaker 1: Go to an And that's the life I've been living, right, I've literally never purchased a retail business seat in my entire life.

00:38:27
Speaker 6: Well, I mean it's just a little things like that, you know, because it's it's and it.

00:38:31
Speaker 5: Can and it's one match, it's one or two matches.

00:38:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's all taken care of her, no, I know.

00:38:37
Speaker 1: And I've had people say that to me and I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, it sounds like a.

00:38:41
Speaker 4: Great way to lose money.

00:38:42
Speaker 2: On to it, you know, And don't talk.

00:38:44
Speaker 5: The Venus because Venus will talk you about it. Because Venus is a great penny pincher.

00:38:49
Speaker 4: She's got amount of money and there's something to be said for it.

00:38:52
Speaker 1: And you know, like, I think your background informs like the attitude that you've had. I've tried it gotten me a sixty eight. I don't like that number. I want a better number, and so I'm yeah, I'm going to invest for a couple of years. And you know, if it doesn't kind it, it doesn't cut it. Life goes on and there's other stuff that I can do that will make me money in the future.

00:39:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I'm lucky.

00:39:13
Speaker 3: I have to go back to stamp and yeah, the first professional player to go back to Stanford.

00:39:18
Speaker 4: To criminal justice reform, that's what question.

00:39:22
Speaker 5: It seems like.

00:39:23
Speaker 3: I mean, we're talking like recidivism rates, justice system, We're talking like all this stuff.

00:39:27
Speaker 2: And what particularly about that.

00:39:29
Speaker 4: I don't know, it's consistent.

00:39:31
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised to hear you say it.

00:39:32
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm just like really fascinated with how awful race relations in the US still are. It's it's something that keeps me up at night and is a problem that I just think is like so unimaginably overt for for a society that considers itself woke, Like we have one in three African American men in jail like at some point during their lifetime, compared to one in seventy white men. That stats from the New Jim Crow. It's like one of my favorite post and.

00:40:05
Speaker 3: Also corresponds to the project I edited in the Washington Post called The Black Black Men Being a Black Man that I haven't It was.

00:40:11
Speaker 2: From two thousand and four. It was when it was pre Tanahase Coats.

00:40:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was.

00:40:16
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the case for operations.

00:40:18
Speaker 4: I mean, yes, yeah, I'm on board.

00:40:21
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I can't stand the argument that you know, we're in a capitalist society and everybody has like, you know, equal access to the American dream, like some people don't have the bottom run run of the latter available to them. There, you know, disadvantage from the very beginning. And I think disproportionnately that's the African American community especially, but also Hispanic populations. But I think growing up in Cleveland, it was really interesting. So I learned this later in life. But apparently Shaker Heights, which is where I grew up, they were like really progressive right after integration, and so they wanted to do like basically a citywide social experiment by drawing city lines that were almost exactly half white and half black. Interesting and I never knew that, but I had intuitate that because I grew up in a society that felt very half in half and like it was honestly in my opinion. I was also very young, so I hadn't had time to grow up into some.

00:41:25
Speaker 4: Of the bullshit that occurs later in life. But it was almost.

00:41:27
Speaker 1: Utopian in a way, like I didn't feel that over sense of racism that when I moved out to La I was kind of like, whoa, everybody's really segregated and nobody really overlaps, and I don't know, it was really strange for me. So I think that's some of where it came from.

00:41:45
Speaker 3: So my passion idea that you have you've seen this like more identic or slightly better or I just like couldn't.

00:41:52
Speaker 1: Conceive of the fact that our society was still that racist because I was I was.

00:41:57
Speaker 4: Just like, yeah, okay, like this is how life is.

00:42:01
Speaker 1: And then you get older and I moved into a different place that had different values and I was like, wow, like yeah, this is crazy.

00:42:07
Speaker 2: Well a lot of it is sort of a vision failure.

00:42:09
Speaker 3: I grew up in Montreal, which is, you know, obviously very very close to the States, but we property is not racialized in Canada, not really. I'm generalizing greatly, but like the social stratification in Quebec is based on language, right, And so all of a sudden I.

00:42:22
Speaker 2: Moved to Atlanta, and then everything.

00:42:25
Speaker 3: That you describe segregation in terms of institutionalized sort of you know, overt covert descriptions of race and integration, it just was not happening in a way that I was like, Oh, this is so interesting. You go into any kind of like janitorial job or McDonald's or any sort of lower sort of rum it's done by the Kebaquah, right, So very similar in the sense that like it's not race based, because Canada is you know, it's not a slave country, right, So all of a sudden, being thrown into a place where you see the difference, you see the difference because and you maybe can't explain it until you're older, but to me, it sounds like it comes from like a very deep place in your you know, obviously early childhood experiences.

00:43:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, And honestly, I feel weird sometimes because I so deeply want to be an advocate for that cause, but I also don't want to, like, like, I feel strange sometimes as a white woman being like, oh, but we need to, But I think that's I really don't want to abolt or you don't want to sort of, Yeah, I don't want to appear like I'm speaking on behalf of someone, right, So I take it upon myself to be troubled by it and like look into ways that I can like, you know, be hands on in like the solutions for that, without like trying to position myself as anyone who like, you know, I don't know, but yeah, it's not, it's not it's not it's not my experience. It's not my experience. But I can, like I want to say, like, I can see this.

00:43:52
Speaker 5: But it's to address it.

00:43:54
Speaker 4: But it's a hard balance to strike for me.

00:43:57
Speaker 1: And I've had an agents in the past say like, oh, you should really stick to feminist topics because you're a girl, And I'm just like, honestly, you're not wrong, Like there is a lot of credence to that, my voice, ability, right, incredibility exactly.

00:44:09
Speaker 5: I think you should. I should. I think you look at it from the standpoint of a quality.

00:44:12
Speaker 6: Period in a story, right, marginalized and that yeah, you know, you know, it's just part of society, and I think ideally yes, but but but I would suspect also to that the African American population need people like you it's just like it's like I as a somebody fighting for lgbt Q plus right need straight allies.

00:44:34
Speaker 5: It's the same thing.

00:44:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's also a really specific kind of allyship that comes with listening more than talking and sort of put precision yourself in a position to say, okay, and that's kind of what I'm saying.

00:44:43
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put myself in.

00:44:44
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get educated, I'm gonna put myself in a situation, right I can actually be an advocate and then I'll do a lot of listening.

00:44:49
Speaker 1: And Yeah, and one of the things I've been examining lately, I think any activists in that space will tell you, like, one of the most important things you can do as someone from like a crimin edged background is just trying to check your other privileged friends when you're in a room.

00:45:06
Speaker 4: Full of them.

00:45:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, because I I find it very rare that white people have something racist to say in front of black people, but little things slip through the cracks all the time when you're in a room full of white people. So that's been something that I've been trying to like push myself more to to you know, call that out and not let that be something that like flies, you know, at least around me and you know, just little things like that. But down the road, like something working in criminal justice perform is something that like massively interests me.

00:45:40
Speaker 4: I think it's like one of the biggest problems.

00:45:42
Speaker 1: We have in the United States. I think it's completely underfunded.

00:45:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's wild.

00:45:48
Speaker 1: We're putting people in jail for a weed possession. Like who even cares is fucking legal half of the places now?

00:45:53
Speaker 3: So yeah, okay, good, Well, I see the makings of Aaron Brockovich sort of like chapter three.

00:46:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, could be a political career.

00:46:02
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure. There's so many options. I literally changed my mind daily.

00:46:06
Speaker 6: So but it's also another reason to go to college because now you have, you know, two years of Stanford under your belt.

00:46:15
Speaker 5: You can go back three for the very year three.

00:46:18
Speaker 6: So I mean, which is even better, right, because there's so many more things that you can do.

00:46:24
Speaker 5: And I think that's so.

00:46:25
Speaker 4: Still less than one degree less.

00:46:27
Speaker 2: Than yes, well, I plan to go back, I say, I mean part of your twenties anyway, in any shape or form.

00:46:33
Speaker 3: The fact that you've already had a successful career and it continues in one realm, Like most of your twenties is just being like, who the fuck am I and what am I fucking doing? Yeah? Most of I'm immediate, Like do I want to write books? It's it's everybody Eric Erickson on social psycho social development.

00:46:48
Speaker 2: That's exactly what we don't.

00:46:49
Speaker 5: We don't even.

00:46:49
Speaker 4: Identity for them until we're thirty.

00:46:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you got like four years, dude.

00:46:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well I'm taking all of that time because I have no decisions made and.

00:46:58
Speaker 6: Now you realize that every day is really important and there's no point in rushing anything.

00:47:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, and have fun with it.

00:47:05
Speaker 2: Got I think we've done a lot of really good worker today. Yeah, I think we had. We got chapter two to three and maybe beyond.

00:47:10
Speaker 6: We'll come back once, you you know, back there doing that law school degree and deciding on what you're doing.

00:47:15
Speaker 1: Now.

00:47:16
Speaker 6: Hey, hey, I had a really good friend, Carrie Cunningham was her name, and she was she went back was Frank thirty something in the world, went back to Michigan. Did her quit playing tennis at like twenty one twenty two because she was uber smart and should not have been playing tennis because she was just too smart to be playing tennis.

00:47:34
Speaker 2: That's like me.

00:47:34
Speaker 5: That's why Yeah, like you, and clearly.

00:47:36
Speaker 6: That's why I played Tells almost forty but she went back and got her undergrad and it was now one of the leading endocinsurgents in the country.

00:47:43
Speaker 4: Wow. So you know that's inspiring.

00:47:45
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I means there is a huge afterlife after tennis.

00:47:51
Speaker 2: And listen magazine anytime you're on a rate.

00:47:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, really time, I know I need to, I will, I will eventually.

00:47:58
Speaker 2: No pressure, we'll think any more.

00:47:59
Speaker 5: Thanks Nicole. Hey, we're going to see you on the Hotcook covered.

00:48:03
Speaker 3: Everything and that's it for this episode of the Racket Magazine podcast.

00:48:10
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.

00:48:11
Speaker 3: Our host is Renee Stubbs. Our co host and producer is me Caitlin Thompson. Music by internationally renowned DJ Stretch Armstrong. Thanks to Tim Or Jerry and the team at ACAST.

00:48:22
Speaker 4: Find us at racketmag dot com, slash podcast

00:48:24
Speaker 3: And subscribe to us at any of your favorite podcatchers.