089 - Designing law by disasters (or not?) with Birgitte Messerschmidt

Transcript

WEBVTT 00:00:00.354 --> 00:00:01.014 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello, everybody. 00:00:01.074 --> 00:00:05.730 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Welcome to the Fire Science Show in this podcast, we try to talk about important. 00:00:05.764 --> 00:00:08.330 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Topics in fire safety, some of those topics are. 00:00:08.330 --> 00:00:12.583 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Once that everyone's talking about, you know, batteries, facades, timber, and stuff like that. 00:00:12.787 --> 00:00:20.004 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And there are topics that are maybe as important, but I don't see them talked over, at least not in mainstream. 00:00:20.393 --> 00:00:20.934 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Media. 00:00:21.024 --> 00:00:21.743 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If I may. 00:00:22.193 --> 00:00:26.701 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Not in your normal conferences, not in published journal papers. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:33.771 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>However, I feel this topics, especially the ones that are related to how safety is being delivered in the build environment. 00:00:33.981 --> 00:00:36.081 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This are fundamental for fire safety engineering. 00:00:36.530 --> 00:00:38.390 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Because even if we have the best. 00:00:38.404 --> 00:00:42.329 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Knowledge the best scientific understanding of the fundamental principles. 00:00:42.329 --> 00:00:44.363 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That are related to fire safety. 00:00:44.874 --> 00:00:46.613 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If we are unable to create a. 00:00:46.896 --> 00:00:49.368 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Regime that is based on that. 00:00:49.398 --> 00:00:53.118 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And that realize how, if I saved the, on those fundamentals. 00:00:53.718 --> 00:00:55.662 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We're not going to have a fire safe world. 00:00:55.844 --> 00:01:05.703 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So today, one of those episodes where we try to understand how our regulations are put in place how would the safety is indeed. 00:01:05.763 --> 00:01:07.263 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Delivered to buildings? 00:01:07.743 --> 00:01:20.968 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In this episode, I have invited NFPA's Birgitte Messerschmidt who has spent a good chunk of her career Europe having a significant impact over something that we refer to as the reaction to fire. 00:01:21.418 --> 00:01:22.918 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And legislation around that. 00:01:23.075 --> 00:01:38.591 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and that's where we started the interview with beget about how Birgitte SBI method came to live, how we have defined new Euro class system for reaction to fire for flammability tests which is the cornerstone to it, to how safety is delivered here in, in Europe. 00:01:39.072 --> 00:01:44.191 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I tried to theme these podcast episodes around the concept of designing by disaster. 00:01:44.191 --> 00:01:48.152 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And this BI and Euro classes were definitely not designed by disaster. 00:01:48.152 --> 00:01:49.682 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>They were designed by choice. 00:01:50.162 --> 00:01:57.659 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>They were meant to give us finally find her save environment in a way, at least related to flammability. 00:01:57.983 --> 00:02:03.248 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>For most of the cases, this worked out really well, but there are some examples in which it really did not. 00:02:03.733 --> 00:02:07.123 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I think it's very important to, to instance why that happened. 00:02:07.421 --> 00:02:10.241 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and how maybe it was worth around in some areas. 00:02:10.721 --> 00:02:15.881 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And how some very interesting features of the system where very soon forgotten. 00:02:16.390 --> 00:02:24.730 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And soon the Euro class emerged as the one index to rule them all, not a complimentary tool that you can adjust and adapt to your needs. 00:02:25.121 --> 00:02:29.050 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So you're very interesting journey we have in this episode. 00:02:29.411 --> 00:02:35.950 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm teasing so much because I don't want you to have an idea that it's just in this BI episode, it's, it's much more. 00:02:36.281 --> 00:02:45.161 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I hope we all learn something from, from this discussion and we built some better regulation, better tests. 00:02:45.550 --> 00:02:48.341 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Better ways of handling fire safety. 00:02:48.790 --> 00:02:50.350 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, for the future, very honest. 00:02:50.651 --> 00:02:59.104 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Conversation and very thankful to Birgitte for get for having such an open conversation with me and I hope you enjoyed a lot. 00:02:59.163 --> 00:03:00.454 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So that's it. 00:03:00.484 --> 00:03:02.524 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's spin danger and jump into the episode. 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:28.569 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Before we start the episode, I would like to thank you once again. 00:03:28.569 --> 00:03:34.037 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>OFR Consultants for sponsoring this podcast, It has been already a month and I'm really enjoying this collaboration. 00:03:34.037 --> 00:03:35.687 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It has brought a lot of good to the podcast. 00:03:36.263 --> 00:03:41.699 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>OFR Consultants are a multi award winning independent consultancy dedicated to addressing fire safety challenges. 00:03:42.219 --> 00:03:45.210 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>OFR is the UK is leading fire risk consultancy. 00:03:45.710 --> 00:03:54.889 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's globally established team has developed a reputation for permanent fire engineering expertise with colleagues working across the world to help protect people, property and planets. 00:03:55.265 --> 00:03:59.015 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In the UK, that includes the redevelopment of the Printworks building in Canada water. 00:03:59.075 --> 00:04:06.216 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>One of the tallest residential buildings in Birmingham, as well as historic structures, like the National Gallery, National History Museum. 00:04:06.575 --> 00:04:08.526 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And the National Portrait Gallery in London. 00:04:08.915 --> 00:04:18.519 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Internationally it's work ranges from Antarctic to Atacama desert in Chile, and the number of projects across Africa in 2023 of our will grow with seam. 00:04:18.610 --> 00:04:24.220 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And it's keen to hear from industry professionals who want to collaborate on the fire safety futures this year. 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.759 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Get in touch at OFRconsultants.com. 00:04:28.103 --> 00:04:30.369 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And now back to the episode Hello everybody. 00:04:30.369 --> 00:04:31.928 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Welcome to the Fire Science Show. 00:04:32.139 --> 00:04:34.908 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm today with Brigit Messerschmidt from NFPA. 00:04:34.928 --> 00:04:35.668 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello Birigtte 00:04:35.894 --> 00:04:37.795 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>hey Wojciech thanks for having me here. 00:04:37.795 --> 00:04:39.154 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I'm excited to talk to you. 00:04:39.358 --> 00:04:42.838 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm excited as well, how how's live on the other side of the ocean. 00:04:43.187 --> 00:04:47.677 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It's pretty good snowy morning here in Massachusetts, so, uh, life is pretty good. 00:04:47.882 --> 00:04:49.862 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now we don't have snow anymore in here. 00:04:50.163 --> 00:04:50.882 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You took it all. 00:04:51.242 --> 00:04:51.992 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm, I'm happy. 00:04:51.992 --> 00:04:52.593 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You're happy. 00:04:52.862 --> 00:05:00.995 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, as I told you, it's gonna be difficult interview, because there are simply too many topics we can discuss on the podcast. 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:06.975 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, even my one hour long episodes are difficult to accommodate discussions. 00:05:07.846 --> 00:05:14.869 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>From our correspondence, literally one sentence has, has caught my attention as a theme for this. 00:05:14.869 --> 00:05:17.309 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And that was, designed by disaster. 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.281 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I think it's an interesting thing in fire safety. 00:05:20.302 --> 00:05:22.543 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>we we do in fact, designed by disaster. 00:05:22.543 --> 00:05:23.043 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And in your. 00:05:23.329 --> 00:05:30.668 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>career, uh, you were involved with, with many, many organizations that were, for, testing, certification, standardization. 00:05:31.057 --> 00:05:35.288 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now you are also in a place that's responsible for, for testing, standardization, certification. 00:05:36.408 --> 00:05:39.434 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, wonder like, what does design by disaster mean to you? 00:05:39.644 --> 00:05:44.711 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, in, in that world of fire safety viewed through the lens of Birigtte Messerschmidt. 00:05:44.790 --> 00:05:55.720 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Well, what what I, what I mean about that is that, that we have a tendency to wait until a disaster happens before we make changes in, in our code standards or regulations. 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:57.009 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so we have assist. 00:05:57.439 --> 00:05:58.509 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It works for a while. 00:05:58.509 --> 00:05:59.430 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It's all great. 00:05:59.430 --> 00:06:00.269 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We are all happy. 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:10.629 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We don't have too many extreme accidents, and then suddenly we have a disaster like Grenfell that happened in London in 2017, and we go like, oh my God, we have a problem. 00:06:10.865 --> 00:06:11.800 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We gonna fix it. 00:06:11.846 --> 00:06:20.867 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and we do a little bit of scrambling, little bit of panic where we, we make changes in the regulatory field and that then brings things back into order. 00:06:20.877 --> 00:06:22.947 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We don't see another disaster for a while. 00:06:22.947 --> 00:06:24.067 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We go, okay, we are good. 00:06:24.067 --> 00:06:24.346 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We are. 00:06:24.791 --> 00:06:27.451 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then we wait, and then another disaster happens. 00:06:27.838 --> 00:06:34.237 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>it goes all the way back to, to, uh, you say the, the triangle, uh, ship waste factory fire here in, in New York, 00:06:34.463 --> 00:06:34.812 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hm. 00:06:34.937 --> 00:06:37.987 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>over a hundred years ago where that, that started. 00:06:38.098 --> 00:06:44.221 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>N F P A 1 0 1, the, the, the life safety code, to many other big fires over time that. 00:06:44.682 --> 00:06:48.502 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Significantly altered the codes and, and regulations around the world. 00:06:48.887 --> 00:06:58.805 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so that's, that's what I'm thinking about when I, when I say designed by disaster, it is when we see an event that happens that we had not anticipated in our codes and standards. 00:06:59.288 --> 00:07:11.528 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I've once read about the great fire of Rome that it led to like use of stone, increased separation distances and everything, and great fires happened every decade in every major city. 00:07:11.528 --> 00:07:13.286 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Nothing was learned, preserved. 00:07:13.286 --> 00:07:23.065 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I guess the, the moment where we figured out it's, it's standardization and codes, maybe not a stupid way to this type of experience, I guess that's where we started. 00:07:23.485 --> 00:07:35.245 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Advancing in, in fire safety, although I'm not sure how big advancements we're making nowadays, but that's, maybe that's a topic for another podcast episode on data and, uh, where we are heading. 00:07:35.245 --> 00:07:36.245 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I don't want to go there. 00:07:37.057 --> 00:07:37.966 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That'll be next. 00:07:38.107 --> 00:07:40.367 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then that could get very philosophical as well. 00:07:40.571 --> 00:07:40.990 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>yeah. 00:07:41.110 --> 00:07:44.620 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Oh, I, I have a, a history of amateur philosophy in the podcast, so that, 00:07:44.687 --> 00:07:45.127 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>just. 00:07:45.365 --> 00:07:53.028 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>that would fit, um, when you've brought an example of Grenfell and that was something I wanted to eventually reach in this podcast episode. 00:07:53.028 --> 00:07:56.017 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But I would like to start, many years earlier. 00:07:56.420 --> 00:08:10.444 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>was a time in, in Europe where we had certain ways to, define flammability of materials and, uh, we call it now reaction to fire all the properties that, that, dictated the chance that material will ignite and spread the fire. 00:08:10.850 --> 00:08:22.288 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I know you were very heavily involved in this, part of fire science for a great, great part of your career, you were actually involved in this in a very interesting, time when. 00:08:22.358 --> 00:08:30.591 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Europe start moving into unification of these methods, something that led to emergence of, single burning item test method. 00:08:30.990 --> 00:08:44.817 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I wondered, uh, I cannot just not ask you the question, how, how it felt back then like when Europe was changing from all these different methods, from very expensive Room Corner tests into this, unified, uh, method. 00:08:45.375 --> 00:08:46.576 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>it, it was exciting times. 00:08:46.576 --> 00:08:53.139 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I mean, I, I came into this in, in 1994, uh, right when I graduated from, from university, and, and on. 00:08:53.139 --> 00:08:54.940 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I mean, I graduated without a degree in fires. 00:08:55.315 --> 00:08:58.284 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Safety engineering, cuz we didn't have that in Denmark back then. 00:08:58.284 --> 00:09:08.845 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So I'd had one course in structural fire engineering, uh, but was lucky enough to start working in the fire lab at DBI in Denmark and was thrown right into the development of the SBI test back then. 00:09:09.138 --> 00:09:20.748 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so it was, it was really, really exciting times because what, what was happening was we were looking to replace all the different national tests with one harmonized system and. 00:09:20.812 --> 00:09:27.052 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>coming in green, 24 years old, uh, it never participated in a big international project like that. 00:09:27.312 --> 00:09:34.940 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then suddenly sit in a group where you can see, yeah, there's a lot of really good science here, but behind it was the national interest. 00:09:35.442 --> 00:09:43.832 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So because it, became clear to me very quickly that any change that we would make, any, any test that we would make would mean. 00:09:44.152 --> 00:09:54.471 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>, every country would have to somehow adjust something and that affects that country's industry that already have their, their products approved to, to existing standards. 00:09:54.815 --> 00:10:05.495 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so there was, you know, huge powers behind this with a huge interest in what was going on while we were sitting there working on a test and trying to do. 00:10:05.961 --> 00:10:08.493 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>the best we could in that situation. 00:10:08.552 --> 00:10:11.643 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But, I've, I've said it before and I'll, I'll happily say it again. 00:10:11.643 --> 00:10:16.643 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>The S b I test is probably the only test in the world that's mostly developed by fire regulators 00:10:16.719 --> 00:10:17.068 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hm. 00:10:17.092 --> 00:10:18.192 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and not scientists. 00:10:18.363 --> 00:10:33.265 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, and, uh, A lot of groups of from, uh, manufacturers through fire laboratories to, to us you said governments who, had some methods sorted out and, and they would be happy keeping that without big changes. 00:10:33.270 --> 00:10:34.926 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, large bodies of interest. 00:10:34.985 --> 00:10:37.826 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And in the middle of it, a bit of fire science. 00:10:37.826 --> 00:10:41.905 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, that method actually makes some sense, right? 00:10:42.552 --> 00:10:42.971 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes, 00:10:43.208 --> 00:11:04.456 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>my best knowledge, it was, somehow correlated with the outcomes of room corner tests and there was this famous round robin in test where multiple materials were tested in both room corner and s b i to show that, results of s b I could be somehow used to predict potential outcomes of room corner, which then could be. 00:11:04.831 --> 00:11:10.561 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Somehow used to, to establish a classification of or ranking of materials. 00:11:10.770 --> 00:11:11.910 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Please correct me if I'm 00:11:12.197 --> 00:11:14.547 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>No, it you're, you're, you're absolutely right. 00:11:14.547 --> 00:11:17.626 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Because if, if you look at it, every country had their own way of doing things 00:11:17.880 --> 00:11:18.211 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:11:18.586 --> 00:11:21.506 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and if you're, you're gonna find a new way, harmonized way. 00:11:21.506 --> 00:11:27.067 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You have to sort of go back to basics and say, what is it then we are trying to achieve with this test method? 00:11:27.567 --> 00:11:29.576 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And that that is what was done back then. 00:11:29.576 --> 00:11:33.576 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And say, okay, what we wanna look at is fire in a room. 00:11:34.177 --> 00:11:40.202 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>, we believe that, you know, that was seen as the most, typical scenario, fire starting in a corner of the room. 00:11:40.702 --> 00:11:47.482 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then how would the different products then behave and feed that fire or, or help prevent the fire from growing, et cetera. 00:11:48.212 --> 00:11:50.763 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Um, that is what we would like to try and measure here. 00:11:51.332 --> 00:12:01.682 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, it, it, the idea was to see how can we, Simulate that in the test and looking at existing tests, there was the room corner test, and that was seen. 00:12:01.682 --> 00:12:09.282 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So we said the reference scenario that we were looking at was fire that started in the corner of a smallish room. 00:12:09.798 --> 00:12:09.958 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:12:10.024 --> 00:12:10.514 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>okay. 00:12:10.514 --> 00:12:13.955 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Next step is gonna say, okay, how can we, how can we represent that? 00:12:14.205 --> 00:12:17.554 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, so that's then what we call the large scale reference test. 00:12:18.144 --> 00:12:25.875 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That was decided to be the room corner test that had been seen as, as a, as a well established test at that, that time in, in the mid nineties. 00:12:26.274 --> 00:12:34.445 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and, and had been used in several research projects and a few countries, outside of Europe had looked at it as well, uh, for, for regulatory purposes. 00:12:35.014 --> 00:12:37.205 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So that was chosen, say, okay. 00:12:37.575 --> 00:12:39.735 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>, we have that as a last scale reference test. 00:12:40.264 --> 00:12:43.815 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So what we wanted to see is how products perform in that. 00:12:43.955 --> 00:12:57.991 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And, and that's gonna sort of be based for how it will be, classified down the road, but, Testing every product to, to a large scale test is expensive, uh, cost prohibitive for, for, for some industries, et et cetera. 00:12:58.292 --> 00:13:02.802 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So it was agreed that we wanted like small scale and, and intermediate scale test instead. 00:13:02.831 --> 00:13:07.241 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>This is why the S B I test came in as that intermediate scale test. 00:13:07.532 --> 00:13:16.365 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So the idea was that the test result in, in the S B I test should reflect the results that came from the room corner test. 00:13:16.892 --> 00:13:22.841 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So that it all linked back to that scenario of a fire starting in a corner of a room. 00:13:23.052 --> 00:13:31.947 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So the classification you obtain should link back to how would these products perform if they were mounted on the wall and or ceiling in a corner of 00:13:31.982 --> 00:13:34.552 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So if SBI is intermediate, then what's a small one? 00:13:34.552 --> 00:13:36.232 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>A cone or a flame? 00:13:36.577 --> 00:13:41.008 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So in, in, in the European system as more, you know, the small flame test, uh, 00:13:41.013 --> 00:13:41.173 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>flame 00:13:41.298 --> 00:13:44.345 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>is of course the first on the classification scheme. 00:13:44.345 --> 00:13:46.544 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then, then you have the, uh, um, 00:13:46.708 --> 00:13:47.788 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>of combustion as well, huh? 00:13:48.009 --> 00:13:51.360 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Exactly the bomb colorimeter and the non combustibility test. 00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:57.277 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But I also, I mean, the cone colorimeter would've been a great small scale test to have had as part of this. 00:13:57.277 --> 00:14:00.547 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And, as you know, the Nordic countries were pushing for this in, in the early nineties. 00:14:00.809 --> 00:14:04.159 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Uh, it's through the, I think it was called the Horrific Project or something like that. 00:14:04.427 --> 00:14:10.116 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and a lot of work had already been done showing, correlations between the cone colorimeter and, and the room corner. 00:14:10.527 --> 00:14:15.157 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, so that could have been a fairly easy transition, but that was not agreeable. 00:14:15.206 --> 00:14:21.317 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, so that's why went down the route of inventing a new test based on these principles. 00:14:21.605 --> 00:14:24.546 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Cone also has a lot of fire signs behind it actually. 00:14:24.546 --> 00:14:24.966 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, uh, 00:14:25.177 --> 00:14:25.767 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It does. 00:14:25.775 --> 00:14:34.346 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>brilliant, uh, lectures by Jose Torrero about how, uh, cone links to the, the, just the flame spread on, on, on the solid. 00:14:34.961 --> 00:14:41.890 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and, and how it actually answers the important questions that are necessary to solve the, the equations for this flame spread. 00:14:42.221 --> 00:14:45.610 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Anyway, let's go back to the European testing, um, regime. 00:14:45.885 --> 00:14:51.908 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and I'm building up the, this whole, uh, Story of how s b I came to test because we're later. 00:14:51.908 --> 00:15:08.203 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I want to understand why it has not prevented some of the stuff that happened at that time, you've chosen a bunch of different, uh, materials that were used in, in different settings, in the report, um, from speed, there's like 30 of them. 00:15:08.222 --> 00:15:10.899 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>there was, there was 30, 30 materials for the round robin. 00:15:11.822 --> 00:15:16.322 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And they were not just, they were not chosen particularly by the laboratories group. 00:15:16.413 --> 00:15:20.482 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So the, the group that was developing the test was called the Official Laboratories group. 00:15:20.898 --> 00:15:24.057 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and they were not really the ones choosing, uh, these materials. 00:15:24.297 --> 00:15:25.216 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It actually came a list. 00:15:25.447 --> 00:15:30.822 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Fi, national Fire Regulators, that was, uh, in a group that was called the Fire Regulators Group under the commission. 00:15:31.352 --> 00:15:37.513 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so they were the ones saying, these are the tests that we want to have in this round robin, and see how the system performs with these 30 materials 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:44.196 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>it's very interesting because, you know, 30 materials that are the backbone of the system. 00:15:44.643 --> 00:15:48.633 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>let's make a bold assumption that the system works for these 30 materials. 00:15:49.472 --> 00:15:50.222 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>it work for. 00:15:50.620 --> 00:15:52.385 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>any other material that's not on the list? 00:15:52.390 --> 00:15:57.485 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You know, there there are some materials that came to existence after 1999. 00:15:58.115 --> 00:16:05.395 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, and I, I wonder like, can you expand the system for, for the new materials without changing the system? 00:16:06.340 --> 00:16:06.700 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Probably not. 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:09.820 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And that, that it's, you're actually hitting something really, really interesting here. 00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:10.100 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Right? 00:16:10.397 --> 00:16:19.277 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so as we did the, so when we did the round robin, we did, we tested the products in, in the S B I and then also all products were tested in the Room Corner test. 00:16:19.846 --> 00:16:21.677 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So the S B I test were done. 00:16:21.697 --> 00:16:23.116 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You know, you did, you we did. 00:16:23.342 --> 00:16:27.783 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Three tests in each laboratories and 15 different laboratories in the sbi. 00:16:28.192 --> 00:16:32.863 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So because we had to test both repeatability and reproducibility because it was a new test. 00:16:33.442 --> 00:16:39.793 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Now each of the materials were also tested just once in a room corner, in a few different laboratories. 00:16:39.793 --> 00:16:43.393 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>One of them dbi I, one of them was, uh, uh, SP in Sweden. 00:16:44.073 --> 00:16:45.104 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>LSF V T T. 00:16:45.215 --> 00:16:46.715 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>LSF did some of them as well. 00:16:47.085 --> 00:16:50.034 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, and I think VT t as well, if I remember correctly. 00:16:50.195 --> 00:16:53.115 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and each of us did a, some, a group of products. 00:16:53.251 --> 00:16:58.481 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so, so the room quantit test, there was only one test on that, whereas there was many on, on the SBI side. 00:16:58.481 --> 00:16:58.922 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Right. 00:16:59.461 --> 00:17:03.721 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And the idea was then to see what that correlation between the two were. 00:17:04.142 --> 00:17:15.051 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>As we then were looking at the results afterwards, it became very clear that there was a group of materials already in the 30 that we have tested where this system does not work. 00:17:15.645 --> 00:17:15.766 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:17:15.801 --> 00:17:20.798 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and it was a few products that were specifically mentioned, uh, in that paper. 00:17:20.798 --> 00:17:24.917 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And I think it's in that paper from sp, a report from SP on, on this. 00:17:25.251 --> 00:17:26.971 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>it was, uh, pip. 00:17:27.692 --> 00:17:28.532 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Electrical cables. 00:17:28.893 --> 00:17:36.442 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>we also had, a polycarbonate, uh, skylight material, Uh, then, and then, uh, metal, metal face sandwich panels. 00:17:36.555 --> 00:17:43.315 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>these were where they, there was like, so clearly there was not, the behavior in the two different tests could not in any way be compared. 00:17:43.801 --> 00:17:47.461 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and also that the setup with testing in this kind of test was. 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:49.896 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Not the right way to do it. 00:17:50.557 --> 00:17:52.856 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And this was then foreseen in the system. 00:17:53.323 --> 00:18:05.176 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>by, it came with what we, from, from the commission, what was known as, uh, the guidance paper g and guidance paper G was, uh, set up to, allow for an alternative route. 00:18:05.477 --> 00:18:14.426 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>if you as, as an, you know, group of, so not a single manufacturer cannot go for this, but a group of manufacturers or, or an industry association or whatever, who could see. 00:18:15.321 --> 00:18:19.582 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Our type of products are not treated correctly in the S B I test. 00:18:19.872 --> 00:18:28.541 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We would like to have an appeal procedure and go towards the large scale reference test, the room corner test, and then proof performance there. 00:18:28.944 --> 00:18:32.615 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Or if you can see that even the room corner test might not be the correct. 00:18:33.125 --> 00:18:40.311 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Then apply for, well, what kind of, large scale reference test would be appropriate for this type of product and or system. 00:18:40.684 --> 00:18:47.355 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so that was all written down, nice process for doing this so that the system could develop. 00:18:47.942 --> 00:18:52.329 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>as we, developed new products, new methods of, of construction, et cetera. 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:58.690 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It, it was, start into that and it, it, it was successful for a few products, right? 00:18:58.690 --> 00:19:00.650 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Early on in the early two thousands. 00:19:00.900 --> 00:19:03.130 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Um, one of them was pipe insulation. 00:19:03.173 --> 00:19:03.503 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:05.609 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Uh, another one was electrical cables. 00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:11.730 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Uh, a whole new project was set up then for that, and they defined their set of, uh, tests that was more. 00:19:11.874 --> 00:19:16.163 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>have a specific test methodology for cables that is specific for that product. 00:19:16.163 --> 00:19:16.854 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Indeed, yes. 00:19:17.049 --> 00:19:17.720 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Correct. 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:23.363 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So it, it worked really, really well for a while and then it sort of died. 00:19:23.875 --> 00:19:27.476 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And we have a lot of new products developed all the time. 00:19:27.476 --> 00:19:27.715 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And 00:19:28.247 --> 00:19:28.666 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes. 00:19:28.705 --> 00:19:32.803 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>mention, we are also, we're mixing the use of product, the material in, in this discussion. 00:19:33.113 --> 00:19:33.942 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Oh God, yes. 00:19:34.063 --> 00:19:39.175 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>yeah, but it was certainly a, a a material test from what I see. 00:19:39.181 --> 00:19:42.173 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It, it's not necessarily a, a product test. 00:19:42.232 --> 00:19:42.712 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's not. 00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:47.999 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Test for complex wall, like you can game a lot by the surface. 00:19:47.999 --> 00:20:00.348 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You know, you can, there, there, there's a lot of potential in here I wonder to what extent this single approach could, could be considered like a truly universal, you know, from pipes to furniture, 00:20:01.371 --> 00:20:09.442 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>was, that was a, a, a discussion that we had quite a bit, both during development, but even more through the, the years after implementation. 00:20:09.442 --> 00:20:13.642 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You know, when, when it was implemented, we started using the system in, in the early two thousands. 00:20:13.652 --> 00:20:21.041 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Uh, after 2002 when it was implemented was when we really started having those discussions about, well, is it actually material or is it product? 00:20:21.412 --> 00:20:22.882 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Because in the SBI. 00:20:23.085 --> 00:20:26.842 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>test standard as well as in the, uh, classification standard. 00:20:26.842 --> 00:20:30.842 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It's test, it's mentioned specifically the product should be tested, induced condition. 00:20:31.420 --> 00:20:42.579 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and therefore considering that what is behind this product and or material that I'm testing has an impact on the performance, which you and I as fire scientists know is, is very true. 00:20:42.579 --> 00:20:52.217 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It definitely can, it of course also has an impact if you have a very fire protective covering in front of something that's higher combustible behind, it, oh my God. 00:20:52.217 --> 00:20:58.896 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It became a long, drawn out, discussion because, What does it mean to test an nge condition? 00:20:59.410 --> 00:21:10.069 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and, and the discussion was, was rating mostly of, of firstly and, and, and very fiercely in, in the insulation industry, because what does it mean testing an insulation product in n use condition? 00:21:10.182 --> 00:21:11.702 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>With water inside out of the paper. 00:21:11.769 --> 00:21:12.259 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yeah. 00:21:12.259 --> 00:21:12.500 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yeah. 00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:14.539 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I mean, it, it does, is it actually. 00:21:15.076 --> 00:21:18.202 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>The insulation material itself that I should test? 00:21:18.532 --> 00:21:23.123 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Or is it the whole wall in which the insulation material is incorporated? 00:21:23.252 --> 00:21:25.282 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Because that is, it's induced. 00:21:25.663 --> 00:21:29.722 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You, you never have an insulation material exposed on the wall. 00:21:30.468 --> 00:21:30.627 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:21:30.962 --> 00:21:33.403 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>always will have it behind a plaster board or something else. 00:21:33.403 --> 00:21:33.762 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Right. 00:21:34.329 --> 00:21:43.836 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so it became, you can imagine the discretion that was on, on one size and No, it, it means when, when the product gets a classification, the product should be exposed and others said, no, no, no. 00:21:43.836 --> 00:21:44.836 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It says end use condition. 00:21:45.050 --> 00:21:45.381 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:51.759 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And you can see where that you can probably, Ima imagine the fault lines between those two discussions where, where that they fell. 00:21:52.196 --> 00:21:57.497 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and, and it, it's, it was really interesting because it made such a huge difference. 00:21:57.497 --> 00:22:02.977 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>If you have a highly combustible product, but you put it behind a plaster board, it'll perform really well on the sbi. 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:03.898 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>. 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:10.102 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Wojciech Węgrzyński: Mm Uh, whereas if you exposed it directly in the S b I test will, it will not pass, even uh, to class D. 00:22:10.431 --> 00:22:10.851 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>mm. 00:22:11.112 --> 00:22:17.015 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so it will be, you know, you can imagine the interest behind some of these things in, in the discussions. 00:22:17.817 --> 00:22:23.125 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>it was, was, it was solved in that sense that, that the product that you put on the market, that is what you test and. 00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:35.430 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But you would be allowed to then add an induced classification saying, well, yes, if my product is post it's performed like this, but if I, if it's mounted in real life behind plaster port, then the assembly will perform like this. 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:37.069 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So it's not even working. 00:22:37.069 --> 00:22:41.150 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It's not just between material and product, it's also between product and assembly. 00:22:41.609 --> 00:22:46.470 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And the SBI test, unfortunately is a mishmash of it all, and it's confusing every. 00:22:46.903 --> 00:22:50.594 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, uh, so let's briefly talk about the, the product. 00:22:50.594 --> 00:22:57.862 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now, this is a very European thing, the Euro class system, but, let's briefly touch that so people worldwide can better relate. 00:22:57.871 --> 00:23:01.971 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>so if you, if you can explain Euro class system in like, uh, you, you have two minutes. 00:23:01.971 --> 00:23:02.240 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's go 00:23:02.926 --> 00:23:07.396 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Alright, so you have a product you wanna sell on the European market, you need a fire class. 00:23:07.576 --> 00:23:10.557 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You start in the Euro class system and, and you start bottoms up. 00:23:10.557 --> 00:23:18.987 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You start with a small flame test that really strike to that simply test, is my product resistant to a small flame size of a of a, of a match, right? 00:23:19.526 --> 00:23:19.685 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:23:19.967 --> 00:23:20.366 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Okay. 00:23:20.497 --> 00:23:33.366 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>If you pass that next step up is the S B I test that is supposed to test your, your ability to, to withstand a flame spread and prevent flashover in a room or delay flashover in, in a small room. 00:23:33.643 --> 00:23:35.803 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>there's several different classes in the S B I. 00:23:36.053 --> 00:23:45.042 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Uh, so so you test to that you measure the heat release and you are classified based on the fire, uh, the FIGRA and, and the SMOGRA as they were called. 00:23:45.042 --> 00:23:48.002 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I can't remember what they were showed of because it's a long time since I did. 00:23:48.208 --> 00:23:50.607 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>rate and smoke growth, uh, rate 00:23:51.077 --> 00:23:51.238 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>you. 00:23:51.357 --> 00:23:52.038 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Thank you. 00:23:52.038 --> 00:23:52.597 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That's. 00:23:52.738 --> 00:23:54.958 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>the A, but I, I got most of them 00:23:55.607 --> 00:23:56.417 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Well done. 00:23:56.718 --> 00:24:00.397 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and this was again, the whole product being exposed in, in this test. 00:24:01.057 --> 00:24:08.241 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Now, if you then wanted to go up to, the highest classes up in class A one and a two, this is where suddenly you are. 00:24:08.416 --> 00:24:10.457 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Diving into material level. 00:24:11.106 --> 00:24:29.146 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So you would, for class A two, you would still do an SBI test on the product, but in addition to that, you would have to do either a, uh, uh, bomb colorimeter test on each of the materials or an non combustibility test and fulfill then requirements for clarity, A two for those. 00:24:29.741 --> 00:24:38.748 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And for class A one, you had to do you the, you had to do both the bomb colorimeter and the non combustibility test for each of the materials, 00:24:39.164 --> 00:24:43.750 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and in the end you have a ladder from letter F to letter A, where F 00:24:43.795 --> 00:24:44.325 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>A one, 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:46.029 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>the worst, but tested 00:24:46.734 --> 00:24:47.154 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>yes. 00:24:47.234 --> 00:24:53.410 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and, and a would be something, um, non-combustible or, or close to non-combustible 00:24:53.789 --> 00:24:54.730 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You say a 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:55.509 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>means. 00:24:56.180 --> 00:24:56.849 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Exactly. 00:24:56.849 --> 00:24:58.609 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I mean, and that's another argument, right? 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:02.569 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>A one definitely would be what people would consider, uh, non-combustible. 00:25:02.755 --> 00:25:07.005 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>a two is what many, in including myself, would still consider non-combustible. 00:25:07.005 --> 00:25:08.644 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Some would consider limited combustible. 00:25:08.644 --> 00:25:12.005 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So it, it depends on where in the spectrum you've, you've fallen on. 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:16.730 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So it sounds like, a pretty, decent ladder for products 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:17.173 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes. 00:25:17.173 --> 00:25:24.589 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But, but it, it wasn't designed by disaster, the system, it was designed by the market, by the need, by the, uh, legislation. 00:25:24.750 --> 00:25:28.792 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I guess the individual tests were by disaster. 00:25:28.792 --> 00:25:44.097 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>For example, the room coroner probably with the realization of, of, it was in seventies or eighties, and I think it can be traced back to work of Zu Koski, this corner where, where it was shown that it, it has quadruple, uh, Speed of, of the growth of the fire. 00:25:44.397 --> 00:25:49.678 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you place it on the corner, double when it's at the wall and it's just a fire when it's in the middle. 00:25:49.678 --> 00:25:57.326 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, so that's probably, that led to the realization that the corner setting is, most likely leading to flashover the quickest. 00:25:57.894 --> 00:26:10.670 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and this all goes back all the way to the fifties, sixties, first wagon compartment fires, Kawagoe Thomas, a lot of fire science in, in involved, and, uh, a lot of disasters that led to this realization. 00:26:10.674 --> 00:26:10.910 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But 00:26:11.265 --> 00:26:11.934 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Correct. 00:26:12.349 --> 00:26:20.636 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>a system that, there was no disaster that led to a merger of, of system that was market and Harmon. 00:26:20.741 --> 00:26:22.771 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It was harm, it was harmonization. 00:26:22.771 --> 00:26:23.291 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Exactly. 00:26:23.291 --> 00:26:30.172 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And that, that's actually what's so unique about this whole history is that it was part of the harmonization project. 00:26:30.634 --> 00:26:33.755 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and not, as you say, this was not designed by disaster. 00:26:33.805 --> 00:26:37.321 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It was, it was actually, there was an attempt to have. 00:26:37.663 --> 00:26:59.224 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>A, a logical system, a system where, where, as you said, it's, it's a ladder that, products can, can go through based on what we believe was the biggest hazard, flashover, in a room, that we wanted to prevent, as you said, based on research from many, many years before, showing that combustible linings are at risk, in our buildings, et cetera. 00:27:00.035 --> 00:27:05.194 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, it was, there was a lot of, lot of good thoughts and a lot of good things that went into this. 00:27:05.689 --> 00:27:16.016 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>it, it wasn't, it wasn't perfect, in, in the end far from, uh, because there was a lot of interesting powers behind all of this, that, that constantly we're tweaking things one way or another. 00:27:16.105 --> 00:27:16.804 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So it's. 00:27:16.804 --> 00:27:19.979 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>sometimes we can less science than most of us would've preferred. 00:27:20.011 --> 00:27:33.935 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>the urge is strong, uh, but I'm not gonna follow that lead We all know about a certain paper that has been published, lately that that touches, uh, actually that's a pretty good, it should be called, Science novel, 00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:34.921 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>yes. 00:27:35.465 --> 00:27:44.842 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>by by Angus Law, Graham Spinardi and Luke Bisby I'm gonna link to show notes if, if someone would like to learn the juicy background of, of this rise of Euro class. 00:27:44.842 --> 00:27:46.882 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But I, I'm, I'm not interested. 00:27:46.961 --> 00:27:50.422 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, I am interested in that, but in here I, I would like to understand. 00:27:51.402 --> 00:27:55.291 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We, we had the classification developed, uh, not by disaster. 00:27:55.291 --> 00:28:03.618 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We had science introduced to answer some questions about how tests can be scaled and can one test, predict results of another. 00:28:03.618 --> 00:28:05.358 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That that's science actually that, that's very 00:28:05.429 --> 00:28:05.848 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes. 00:28:06.108 --> 00:28:06.588 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>science. 00:28:07.038 --> 00:28:10.836 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And now this leads to his system, I guess you could. 00:28:11.846 --> 00:28:21.422 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Prevents disaster because you now have the specification and assuming you deployed that you can distinguish fire safe solutions from unsafe solutions. 00:28:21.422 --> 00:28:26.696 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, uh, People at power can say, okay, you should use this class in, in this setting. 00:28:26.696 --> 00:28:28.797 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You should use this class in another setting. 00:28:29.146 --> 00:28:34.493 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>because obviously if we made a non-combustible world, it, it would be heat, maybe the fire safest. 00:28:34.493 --> 00:28:42.737 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I don't know if it actually would, but, there's, um, merits to use different materials for different, uh, solutions and how we, uh, end up in the world. 00:28:43.284 --> 00:28:49.374 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You can use Euro class for almost anything, but still we have residential fires with a lot of fatalities. 00:28:49.854 --> 00:28:56.993 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We still have, uh, buses and trains that, that burn down, even though there is reaction to fire requirements, at least for the trains. 00:28:57.413 --> 00:29:03.701 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We do, have disasters like Grenfell, uh, where facades are, are burning vigorously. 00:29:03.911 --> 00:29:09.580 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And it's not just a, you know, Grenfell is a very harsh example and there's, uh, a lot of things that went into. 00:29:10.238 --> 00:29:10.647 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>horrible fire. 00:29:11.038 --> 00:29:20.551 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But, I can build a facade using only materials of Euro class B I, and it's gonna, I can make it very, very horrible. 00:29:20.954 --> 00:29:32.182 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, I wonder, is disaster necessary to, to, to make a fire safe why couldn't our sophisticated 20 years of research and. 00:29:33.017 --> 00:29:35.686 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Prevent things like, like Grenfell from happening. 00:29:35.957 --> 00:29:39.906 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What, what do you think, we achieved with this system and, and where we'd lacked? 00:29:39.936 --> 00:29:41.186 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's a difficult question. 00:29:41.186 --> 00:29:41.467 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Sorry, 00:29:42.231 --> 00:29:46.061 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>No, it, it's a, it's an extremely interesting, uh, train of thoughts there. 00:29:46.061 --> 00:29:52.345 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, so if we go back to, what we talked about, how it, it was all developed, it was based on the room corner test. 00:29:52.345 --> 00:29:59.021 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And so when he ended up with the system and we had this guidance paper, The possibility of an appeal procedure. 00:29:59.451 --> 00:30:03.301 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I actually think we had a really solid system and something that was good to go forward. 00:30:03.801 --> 00:30:11.991 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But as I also told you, yeah, it worked nicely for a bit where we were, allowing some of these appeal procedures and so on, and people were pushing for that. 00:30:12.132 --> 00:30:13.432 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then that died off. 00:30:13.811 --> 00:30:19.592 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And what happened is that in many people's mind, s b I just became the test. 00:30:20.082 --> 00:30:21.432 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It became the truth 00:30:21.682 --> 00:30:22.311 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Oracle. 00:30:22.422 --> 00:30:22.900 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>link. 00:30:23.015 --> 00:30:23.974 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>to the room corner. 00:30:23.974 --> 00:30:33.422 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And the original thinking started dissipating very quickly because, you know, it was a lot easier to do an ice s b I test than, than a room corner test. 00:30:34.162 --> 00:30:44.558 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then we run into this problem that the S B I test really was struggling between as, as you very, correctly pointed at is it a material? 00:30:45.099 --> 00:30:46.250 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Is it a product test? 00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:47.970 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Is it an assembly test? 00:30:47.970 --> 00:30:58.009 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>When we are talking about facades, we are talking about putting these whole assemblies into the S B I test and putting a 30 kilowatt burner on them. 00:30:58.423 --> 00:31:01.953 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>What in real life does that resemble? 00:31:02.913 --> 00:31:03.584 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Nothing 00:31:04.137 --> 00:31:04.498 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah. 00:31:04.757 --> 00:31:09.997 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>but yet that is how we then allow some of these to say there can't. 00:31:10.255 --> 00:31:11.664 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And you're not even putting a facade. 00:31:11.664 --> 00:31:14.045 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You're putting, uh, you can put materials. 00:31:14.414 --> 00:31:17.984 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Then you can then test each of the separate materials as well. 00:31:18.295 --> 00:31:21.585 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Test them and they can get their nice class B. 00:31:21.755 --> 00:31:28.138 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And then when you put them together in a assembly out in real life, something completely different can happen. 00:31:28.357 --> 00:31:28.708 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hm. 00:31:28.818 --> 00:31:32.219 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>this is where there's this huge disconnect in the system. 00:31:32.826 --> 00:31:36.057 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Between the products and the assemblies. 00:31:36.086 --> 00:31:41.809 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That happens in real life and that has never truly been solved. 00:31:42.346 --> 00:31:51.856 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So one of the ways, it was argued right from the beginning with the S B I test and with the whole system, because we were talking fire in a corner of a room. 00:31:51.941 --> 00:31:52.361 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm 00:31:52.977 --> 00:31:55.017 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>knew this is not FSR test. 00:31:55.270 --> 00:31:55.621 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>mm. 00:31:56.356 --> 00:31:59.166 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>This is a test that's designed to. 00:32:00.481 --> 00:32:05.442 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Internal linings So facades were not really thought of this. 00:32:05.442 --> 00:32:12.914 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It was always in the mind of CEN TC127 and other groups back then that facades were gonna be the next on this. 00:32:13.127 --> 00:32:14.097 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>This is what we. 00:32:14.367 --> 00:32:17.847 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>at that time, facades were not built out of polymers. 00:32:18.178 --> 00:32:23.157 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It was, uh, It was steel, it was simple glazing. 00:32:23.278 --> 00:32:26.637 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You didn't have this super complex facade system, 00:32:27.923 --> 00:32:29.992 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It, well, you did in some places. 00:32:30.403 --> 00:32:33.792 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Uh, you, you had started seeing it in Germany with the ethics systems. 00:32:34.232 --> 00:32:34.458 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>okay. 00:32:34.826 --> 00:32:38.267 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>it, it was, it was emerging in back then, but, but yeah. 00:32:38.487 --> 00:32:42.559 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You know, again, you gotta get to a critical mass of systems before we start seeing the problems. 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:42.759 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Right. 00:32:43.464 --> 00:32:45.242 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so, so, so anyway, we were arguing. 00:32:45.924 --> 00:32:48.164 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>SBI test was not appropriate for facades. 00:32:48.555 --> 00:32:51.875 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>here comes, uh, the commission didn't really wanna deal with this. 00:32:51.875 --> 00:32:53.474 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>No, we've solved the fire problem. 00:32:53.474 --> 00:32:56.714 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We've done, we've done the SBI test, we've done the Euro class system. 00:32:56.714 --> 00:32:56.994 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Right? 00:32:57.545 --> 00:33:07.825 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and so, so the, it was so difficult to get moving, get it moving on, having a large scale test for facades at the European. 00:33:08.424 --> 00:33:09.964 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And we are still not there. 00:33:09.964 --> 00:33:13.404 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>As far as I know, we are close with the work that's been going on. 00:33:13.688 --> 00:33:18.768 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>but I still don't believe we have a sense standard yet for a large scale for SAR says, do we? 00:33:19.063 --> 00:33:26.330 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah, if, if we can go there, and I'm not sure if we will have, like now to think about why s b I happened. 00:33:27.238 --> 00:33:28.538 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>why this method was chosen. 00:33:28.657 --> 00:33:29.678 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It was convenient. 00:33:29.948 --> 00:33:30.367 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes. 00:33:30.488 --> 00:33:31.508 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It was fairly quick. 00:33:31.508 --> 00:33:34.417 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It was easy to deploy in anti fire laboratory. 00:33:34.807 --> 00:33:38.258 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like you didn't need a 20 megawatt hood to deploy sbi, 00:33:38.843 --> 00:33:39.403 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Correct. 00:33:39.667 --> 00:33:41.671 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>10 square meters and some exhaust. 00:33:42.074 --> 00:33:46.304 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And for manufacturers, the sample is small, very, quite cheap. 00:33:46.304 --> 00:33:55.387 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I would say the test is cheap, so, so end, I would assume a lot of popularity of this test comes from the fact cheap and easy. 00:33:55.538 --> 00:33:56.887 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's how I, I would call it. 00:33:57.047 --> 00:34:02.416 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't actually call it the easiest test in the world because it has the, the heat release measurement. 00:34:02.416 --> 00:34:06.196 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It does, it does require knowledge behind, 00:34:06.229 --> 00:34:08.059 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>but that's the, that's the apparatus. 00:34:08.088 --> 00:34:20.364 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like as, as, long as you build the apparatus correctly and you make this one time investment and you gain the capability of doing the test, just simply running the test is not, very difficult thing to do. 00:34:20.592 --> 00:34:20.992 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>correct. 00:34:20.992 --> 00:34:21.494 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Correct. 00:34:21.510 --> 00:34:24.889 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And also it, it didn't disrupt markets too much. 00:34:25.489 --> 00:34:26.268 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah, that's true. 00:34:26.324 --> 00:34:29.344 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And that, and that had a big thing to do with it as well. 00:34:29.452 --> 00:34:29.753 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>mm. 00:34:30.512 --> 00:34:42.251 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>if we then suddenly required every product that was gonna be used in a facade to be tested as part of an a facade assembly, can you imagine the cost to be able to put those products on the market? 00:34:42.262 --> 00:34:43.692 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It, it would be huge. 00:34:43.822 --> 00:34:47.692 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So, so of course there wasn't an interest in going down that route. 00:34:48.545 --> 00:35:00.144 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>that leaves us in the situation that yes, you can perfectly well test products and get a nice cast B on them for each sim and every one of them, and then you can put them together into a facade system. 00:35:00.445 --> 00:35:03.545 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And unfortunately, the combination of those are deadly. 00:35:03.753 --> 00:35:15.411 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But I find this still a challenge even in at the emergence of the, of the European large scale test method because, the large scale metal is, is exactly opposite of, of the strengths of s b I have mentioned. 00:35:16.340 --> 00:35:18.981 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>gonna be difficult to deploy in any laboratory because 00:35:18.981 --> 00:35:19.402 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes, 00:35:19.405 --> 00:35:28.748 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>quite a significant building to handle that, that method, even though even if you don't measure heat release rate, you still need a very large hood, and facility to handle such a big fire. 00:35:28.998 --> 00:35:34.757 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>it's gonna be painfully slow because you need to build a very large facade to test 00:35:34.867 --> 00:35:35.288 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>yes. 00:35:35.952 --> 00:35:37.367 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, uh, there's a big difference. 00:35:37.367 --> 00:35:43.918 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you're building or three meter tall facade and building something that's eight meters tall, you suddenly need scaffoldings. 00:35:43.918 --> 00:35:53.757 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You need a way to rise it, it seems like not a very big difference, but in terms of, uh, of the preparation of the test, it is a massive, massive change of, 00:35:53.842 --> 00:35:54.612 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It's huge. 00:35:54.958 --> 00:36:03.208 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and most likely it's gonna be quite expensive to run because you will not sbi, my guys can do 12 a day on a good day. 00:36:03.483 --> 00:36:03.903 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>big 00:36:03.909 --> 00:36:04.599 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>E Exactly. 00:36:04.630 --> 00:36:07.000 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I mean, at the s b I you can run fairly quickly. 00:36:07.010 --> 00:36:10.840 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It, the test samples are easy to, to put together, et cetera. 00:36:11.210 --> 00:36:12.360 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>No, you're absolutely right. 00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:23.057 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>A large scale forar test that, that is, that requires, uh, that's a completely different ballgame, cost wise, et cetera, but, This is the challenge that we have with our, our modern systems. 00:36:23.532 --> 00:36:29.507 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and, and these assemblies that are complicated use of claddings, insulation, et cetera. 00:36:30.114 --> 00:36:32.244 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>a small scale test won't be able. 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:41.699 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yet we, we haven't found a way through small scale tests to replicate the, the complicated interactions between the different materials in those. 00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:50.579 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And therefore, in order for us to get at least an idea of their performance in real life, we have to go large scale. 00:36:51.429 --> 00:36:59.630 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>otherwise we are we, we are in a situation where we don't know what's gonna happen when we combine these products into an assembly. 00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:01.039 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That, that's an interesting point of view. 00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:10.793 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That terrifies me because, uh, all these tiny details that play in, uh, such a setting of a facade, uh, the more I research that, the more horrified I am. 00:37:10.793 --> 00:37:21.083 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How small details, you know, cavity barriers, the way how you make the cavity, the gaps between the external bolts, the fixings. 00:37:21.472 --> 00:37:25.509 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There's so many tiny details that make, can make or break, facade test. 00:37:25.958 --> 00:37:26.318 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That 00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:26.760 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>yeah. 00:37:27.009 --> 00:37:31.518 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and, It's possible to design a test which almost no systems will pass. 00:37:31.518 --> 00:37:34.172 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's also not the points to, everything. 00:37:34.592 --> 00:37:40.782 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like we need to find solutions that are safe enough, I wonder if we can accomplish that with the safe. 00:37:40.782 --> 00:37:43.092 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, so now we are at designing by disaster. 00:37:43.512 --> 00:37:46.056 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We had huge disasters and, can we solve that? 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:48.750 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I think we can, but not, not tomorrow. 00:37:49.047 --> 00:37:54.146 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and I think it takes much more of a science approach than, than what we have had until now. 00:37:54.516 --> 00:38:08.409 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Um, it, it's always been my dream that we will be able to based our, our design of these systems instead of large scale and more on the modeling based on knowledge of performance of each of the different components. 00:38:08.429 --> 00:38:09.730 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But we are not there yet. 00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:12.250 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We don't have those tools yet. 00:38:12.329 --> 00:38:16.480 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so, but, so until we have, we have to find another way. 00:38:16.896 --> 00:38:20.407 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And even, even a large scale test is, yeah, it will help. 00:38:21.146 --> 00:38:21.306 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:38:21.431 --> 00:38:23.465 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But it won't prevent all disasters. 00:38:23.875 --> 00:38:25.496 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So let's, let's look at the uk. 00:38:25.561 --> 00:38:27.161 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and they do have a facade test, 00:38:27.248 --> 00:38:27.548 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:38:27.641 --> 00:38:33.675 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and that was developed based on a disaster and they have it implemented now they have another disaster. 00:38:34.083 --> 00:38:34.693 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Mm-hmm. 00:38:34.894 --> 00:38:42.914 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>there were still some things that had not been considered in their regulatory system that could creep their way into, the buildings and, and create this. 00:38:43.235 --> 00:38:45.315 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>There are many other reasons for the disaster. 00:38:45.315 --> 00:38:49.835 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Grenfell, uh, and I'm not gonna get into that, uh, at all, but, um, 00:38:50.034 --> 00:38:52.673 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The existence of the test doesn't prevent disaster. 00:38:52.673 --> 00:38:53.664 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's, that's, that's it. 00:38:54.304 --> 00:39:00.643 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>if you have a test that is fit for solving your issue, you really should use it, uh, to solve your issue. 00:39:00.643 --> 00:39:04.047 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Not, find the ways around it because of, of various reasons. 00:39:04.047 --> 00:39:06.367 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Political, financial, comfort, 00:39:06.704 --> 00:39:07.514 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>E Exactly. 00:39:07.748 --> 00:39:13.527 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and there you also, you were pointing to a thing that I think is extremely important for us to consider here. 00:39:14.378 --> 00:39:27.338 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>When, when we are then looking at big, complicated tests, like, like a big facade test, you can make sure that when, when, when a manufacturer or, or whoever's testing is doing this test, they're building up the perfect system. 00:39:27.490 --> 00:39:27.731 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah. 00:39:27.974 --> 00:39:31.664 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>they are making sure that everything is done right. 00:39:32.168 --> 00:39:34.157 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and that's the system that they. 00:39:34.782 --> 00:39:39.552 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>. If it fails the test, they will figure out, oh, it was this that failed. 00:39:39.552 --> 00:39:41.864 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>They will adjust and they will test again. 00:39:42.335 --> 00:39:45.605 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We only know about the system that passed in the end. 00:39:45.635 --> 00:39:47.164 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That's what's put on the market. 00:39:47.235 --> 00:39:49.088 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That's information that we get. 00:39:49.338 --> 00:39:58.427 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We don't know about all the failures that came before, and each of those failures that came before speaks to a weakness in the system that the market is not made aware. 00:39:58.722 --> 00:40:09.869 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Now you take this complicated system and you put it in the hands of installers and some installers can be highly trained and will do a great job and install a wonderful system as great as was tested. 00:40:10.034 --> 00:40:16.467 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Others might not know that the fact that they have taken a shortcut on the construction site somewhere. 00:40:17.001 --> 00:40:24.641 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>that they thought was benign from, based on their thinking of a art system as protecting from the rain and the wind and snow and so on, uh, they're not thinking fire. 00:40:25.112 --> 00:40:34.362 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>They might not know that that little change that they did or that little thing where they caught a corner can have a catastrophic impact in case of a fire. 00:40:34.856 --> 00:40:37.492 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and this, this is where it becomes really complicated. 00:40:37.583 --> 00:40:42.132 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We don't know this and we don't, we don't talk about it enough out there. 00:40:42.132 --> 00:40:50.532 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>The importance of training, of the installers, of, of being very clear about the weaknesses of the system. 00:40:50.742 --> 00:40:57.853 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>No manufacturer wants to go out there and say, yeah, I got a great system that passes this test, but be careful of this and this and this because then it'll fail. 00:40:57.853 --> 00:41:02.092 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Nobody wants to go out and say that, but unfortunately we somehow actually need. 00:41:02.518 --> 00:41:10.358 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>For example, work that Cross is doing UK in, in sharing some of these tabs, that would normally go, uh, hidden. 00:41:10.358 --> 00:41:11.588 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That, that's a brilliant thing. 00:41:11.588 --> 00:41:13.929 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And we definitely need more of that. 00:41:13.934 --> 00:41:14.318 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You know, 00:41:14.909 --> 00:41:15.329 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes. 00:41:15.369 --> 00:41:27.983 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>maybe, maybe this 20, 30 years ago maybe, Laboratories felt that like, because laboratories have this knowledge, it's, it's just, uh, very difficult to go from laboratory, laboratory having a knowledge and laboratory sharing a knowledge. 00:41:28.463 --> 00:41:47.365 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>A lot of reasons in terms of liability, client owned information, general rules of, of not sharing information laboratories is essentially a judge and, and we are not allowed to talk about solutions of our clients because that's proprietary information from, for the clients. 00:41:47.873 --> 00:41:51.733 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>but laboratories can talk between each other, you know, in the test of this particular element. 00:41:51.733 --> 00:41:52.663 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This fails always. 00:41:52.663 --> 00:41:52.842 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah. 00:41:52.842 --> 00:41:54.219 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It does fail always. 00:41:54.342 --> 00:42:00.961 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>but that's the kind of information that then needs to get into the standardization world and, and the regulatory world, right? 00:42:00.961 --> 00:42:01.282 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And 00:42:01.471 --> 00:42:12.333 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I'm not sure if that's this, I'm not sure if this path, I guess it exists because a lot of laboratory representatives are in the commissions, in various commissions in, in Europe at least. 00:42:13.025 --> 00:42:13.445 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>yes. 00:42:13.614 --> 00:42:15.617 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, I just wonder if they're brave enough to do that. 00:42:15.858 --> 00:42:16.307 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Not sure. 00:42:16.807 --> 00:42:20.938 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>from my experience back then, I would say sometimes they are, sometimes not. 00:42:21.038 --> 00:42:25.057 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And I, and I totally understand, a very, very different, difficult situation. 00:42:25.057 --> 00:42:27.311 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>You can find yourself in, as a laboratory, right. 00:42:27.322 --> 00:42:28.271 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>In, in, in that. 00:42:28.391 --> 00:42:29.860 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>shouldn't be a case of bravery. 00:42:29.860 --> 00:42:31.210 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It should be just a system that. 00:42:31.210 --> 00:42:38.541 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>that leads to use of tad uh, secret knowledge for the betterness the citizens of Europe. 00:42:38.541 --> 00:42:38.840 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Right? 00:42:39.556 --> 00:42:40.407 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>E Exactly. 00:42:40.407 --> 00:42:51.746 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And this is where the, maybe, maybe one of the things that we have to think about going forward is, is not so much constantly chasing, the perfect tests, but more chasing. 00:42:52.007 --> 00:42:59.586 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>How can we get this information out in people's hands in a way that it becomes useful even when they fail? 00:42:59.586 --> 00:43:05.067 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>How can we share failures as well as successes from the test world to learn from this? 00:43:05.882 --> 00:43:14.552 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>we can't expect that that manufacturers will start doing that on their own because it will put them in, in a very bad situation competitively. 00:43:14.552 --> 00:43:14.871 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Right? 00:43:14.931 --> 00:43:15.331 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm, 00:43:15.672 --> 00:43:18.152 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>you would have to create a level playing field by. 00:43:18.916 --> 00:43:25.567 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Have some rules for how to share this and maybe that's part of the way to solve some of this problem. 00:43:26.056 --> 00:43:32.262 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Is there even just a way we can share data with having things being, taken out, product names and so on. 00:43:32.262 --> 00:43:34.422 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So at least we can share some kind of information. 00:43:34.932 --> 00:43:36.182 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That would be great. 00:43:36.375 --> 00:43:40.318 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>it would be one of the things that, truly move us forward. 00:43:40.768 --> 00:43:53.188 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And now, you know, we are develop, let, let's say we are developing now a, a fantastic that, that will, give us the capability to assess the current. 00:43:53.746 --> 00:43:54.856 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>let's say facade systems. 00:43:54.856 --> 00:43:56.175 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We're talking about facades today. 00:43:56.175 --> 00:43:58.335 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So let's start, let's say we are developing this. 00:43:58.668 --> 00:44:00.510 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Do you think it's gonna be feature proof? 00:44:00.510 --> 00:44:14.940 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like, like 30 years ago or 20 years ago when s p I was developed, it was this bunch of 30 materials that, that were the cornerstone of that, Today we, we have a certain set of done over the Europe to develop this large. 00:44:14.965 --> 00:44:19.186 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>type of, facade tests we will use for future facade systems. 00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:30.666 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Five years from now, we're gonna have, let's say photo all tag assemblies attached to each facade, and someone will say, okay, it's not a part of facade, it's a external, uh, device placed on a facade. 00:44:31.115 --> 00:44:33.096 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How do we prevent problems with that? 00:44:33.425 --> 00:44:47.701 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We're now testing living wall systems, which are extremely complicated and interesting, and, if you ask me, does this new European Testa method solve the problem of living will systems, I already can see, not necessarily. 00:44:48.510 --> 00:44:59.221 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, I wonder like to what extent we are a hostage of our today's knowledge and to what extent future will again catch us, uh, in a not a very comfortable place. 00:44:59.534 --> 00:45:05.054 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>you're again touching on something that, that I have been talking about a few times, uh, before. 00:45:05.059 --> 00:45:05.820 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>invited you here, 00:45:05.925 --> 00:45:06.414 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yeah. 00:45:08.184 --> 00:45:15.215 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We, as we as a fire science community and fire testing community, et cetera, and code and status, we always play in catch up. 00:45:15.744 --> 00:45:34.614 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We are always coming after the systems have been developed, after the products have been developed and there, that is why we, we will never be able to, to develop a future-proof test because we are not part of the discussions now about the systems that will be coming 10 years down the road. 00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:35.730 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:37.610 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>They don't wanna invite us in. 00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:40.130 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We, we are the, we're the difficult ones, right? 00:45:40.130 --> 00:45:44.409 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We are the ones destroying all these great ideas by saying, Hey Burns, you can't do that. 00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:53.090 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and that, that is a huge problem that, that we have, that we are not part of the product development we are not part of, of. 00:45:53.195 --> 00:45:56.074 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>looking at how could the buildings of tomorrow be? 00:45:56.623 --> 00:46:03.632 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>you know, goes to, to another area where say this whole talk about, you know, energy efficiency, sustainability and so on. 00:46:03.842 --> 00:46:05.391 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We fire people are not part of it. 00:46:05.952 --> 00:46:11.902 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We are not in the discussions about, well, what technology should we have to make buildings more sustainable? 00:46:11.902 --> 00:46:14.742 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Like, uh, what should we do for decarbonization? 00:46:15.164 --> 00:46:19.434 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>we are not part of those discussions until we have a disaster. 00:46:19.585 --> 00:46:23.235 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It's like, oh yeah, we probably should have thought about fire. 00:46:23.414 --> 00:46:25.795 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And we get back to the design by disaster. 00:46:26.125 --> 00:46:27.235 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We see, okay. 00:46:27.594 --> 00:46:31.394 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Apparently the test we had didn't consider these new developed materials. 00:46:32.237 --> 00:46:37.992 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>unless we get better at joining those conversations, we will always be behind. 00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:46.092 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I to what extent, the future fire engineers can be blamed for believing our tests are. 00:46:46.530 --> 00:46:56.371 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Applicable, you know, to, to their future problems in the same way as we believe that, for example, Euro class system is a solution to flammability for, for a decade. 00:46:56.371 --> 00:47:05.130 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Whereas now, more and more examples emerge where it's, it's not enough where you have to look into assembly like we just discussed, right? 00:47:05.630 --> 00:47:10.201 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, and, and can we, uh, help future engineers not do the same? 00:47:11.108 --> 00:47:11.867 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I hope so. 00:47:11.867 --> 00:47:16.922 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And that, that's, you know, up to, to all of you that, that are educating the next generations Right. 00:47:17.492 --> 00:47:32.442 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>To make sure that they also have that understanding and, and the basic science to also be able to question the existent existing system because the problem arises when we take the system as it is, as the eternal. 00:47:32.945 --> 00:47:33.056 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hmm. 00:47:33.331 --> 00:47:37.061 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Well of if it behaved well in the S B I, of course it's a fire safe product. 00:47:37.572 --> 00:47:43.521 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>No, you have to question it and, and, and look at it and say, well, what was the intention with the S B I? 00:47:43.521 --> 00:47:47.322 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And is that intention correct for this product that we have here? 00:47:47.583 --> 00:47:51.947 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>This is why I'm, I'm really happy with that paper that came up because it reminds people of the. 00:47:52.393 --> 00:47:52.693 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah. 00:47:52.891 --> 00:48:09.532 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>and that's why I'm super excited that you invited me here today as well because I have a chance of, of, of reliving some of that history with you so that the new generation of fire, fire protection and fire safety engineers are aware of it so they're know, oh, that's what's what the s b I was supposed to be. 00:48:10.230 --> 00:48:11.059 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>um, okay. 00:48:11.059 --> 00:48:16.460 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Maybe then it's not right for what I'm trying to do here and, and use it as an argument for that. 00:48:16.460 --> 00:48:18.500 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It's great to use this product over here. 00:48:19.027 --> 00:48:24.746 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>So that, I think that's extremely important for the new generation to be aware of. 00:48:25.057 --> 00:48:29.327 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Both the strengths and the limitations of our testing regimes all the way through. 00:48:29.327 --> 00:48:31.407 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And it's not just in Europe, it's also in the US 00:48:31.628 --> 00:48:31.688 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Of 00:48:31.907 --> 00:48:35.728 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And, and, and be critical, uh, be ask questions. 00:48:35.777 --> 00:48:38.288 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Is this appropriate for the application? 00:48:38.838 --> 00:48:44.047 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I think it's really important to consider that what is the application that we are working on here? 00:48:45.027 --> 00:48:46.577 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>was the test that I have here. 00:48:46.708 --> 00:48:48.257 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Is it appropriate for that? 00:48:48.487 --> 00:48:52.898 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I mean, don't even get me started talking about the Steiner tunnel that's used in the us. 00:48:53.007 --> 00:48:56.338 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I mean, if people are picking on the s b I, I'll pick on the Steiner tunnel, right? 00:48:56.858 --> 00:49:00.097 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Which, which always gets me in, in trouble over here on this side of the pond. 00:49:00.097 --> 00:49:02.362 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But, it, it, it's always a fun, fun discussion. 00:49:02.362 --> 00:49:12.177 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But that, you you have to question and, If they don't, they will get into trouble, and I think yes, at some point they will then be held responsible. 00:49:12.257 --> 00:49:13.858 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We've seen that in some cases, 00:49:14.068 --> 00:49:15.648 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and I also believe. 00:49:15.751 --> 00:49:22.458 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The more fire science is involved, like, I think scientific method can be an answer to many questions, 00:49:22.478 --> 00:49:22.898 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>yes. 00:49:23.027 --> 00:49:32.503 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>but the true scientific method, not the one that that's lobbied like, I can tell you like, you have to have this and this heat of combustion to, claim that your material is not. 00:49:32.967 --> 00:49:35.775 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Participating in a fire and you can tell me, yeah, you know what? 00:49:35.775 --> 00:49:39.885 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I have this funny material that's just one that limit. 00:49:39.885 --> 00:49:42.706 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Can we move it a little bit, to accommodate? 00:49:42.795 --> 00:49:46.246 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, so what starts with the fire science? 00:49:46.253 --> 00:49:52.869 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>a and when you have lobbing and, uh, I also believe, looking for the chaps on the market side, it's kind of brutal. 00:49:52.869 --> 00:49:55.246 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You know, they have to fight for this certificate. 00:49:55.365 --> 00:49:57.976 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's very difficult for this manufacturers to really. 00:49:58.891 --> 00:50:03.481 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What their product is doing, because in the end it's always gonna be used against them. 00:50:03.965 --> 00:50:07.291 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>in a way, like whatever you say was, is gonna be used against you. 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:08.840 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>that's always the danger, right? 00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:14.239 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>But, but let's not, let's not be blind to the fact that, that a manufacturer will design to the test method. 00:50:14.684 --> 00:50:14.985 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>yeah. 00:50:15.097 --> 00:50:25.427 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>When it comes to the fire performance, they're not deciding to the, the end use they're deciding to the test method because that's what gives them the access to the market. 00:50:25.657 --> 00:50:30.686 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>That's how they prove, and, and, and they can rightly say, , I have passed this test. 00:50:30.686 --> 00:50:33.007 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I show this before and my product is good. 00:50:33.369 --> 00:50:35.840 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>so that, that's what we have to keep in mind. 00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:38.880 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And this is, you know, as you said, what what could we do? 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:45.000 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Potentially going for one, one of my other dreams is that, well, maybe we never should have classifications. 00:50:45.744 --> 00:50:49.664 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>This, this arbitrary well, here we are talking reaction to fire. 00:50:49.664 --> 00:50:51.664 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Over here we are talking fire resistance. 00:50:51.664 --> 00:50:57.905 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>We don't talk how, you know what the structures are made out of, where we only talk about their resistance. 00:50:57.905 --> 00:51:03.385 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Over here we are talking all about what they're made of and how their flammability and so on is right. 00:51:03.641 --> 00:51:07.355 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I wish we were much more on a, a gradual scale of perform. 00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:28.000 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>, and I think that's the only, you know, one of the only ways we could solve this going forward is, is get to true scientific based performance parameters that are being, tested and then declared for the products so that fire safety engineers can take these and mega design based, based on it. 00:51:28.268 --> 00:51:28.759 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah. 00:51:28.759 --> 00:51:30.309 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What a beautiful world would that be. 00:51:30.309 --> 00:51:30.668 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Right. 00:51:31.010 --> 00:51:31.840 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Oh God, yes. 00:51:32.003 --> 00:51:34.253 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's build, let, Let's build, one for our children. 00:51:34.253 --> 00:51:36.023 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That would be, that would be great. 00:51:36.670 --> 00:51:37.019 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It. 00:51:37.019 --> 00:51:40.019 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>It would be right, but it's, yeah, exactly. 00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:41.539 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Imagine the stress of the manufac. 00:51:41.570 --> 00:51:43.420 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>What do you mean I'm not testing to a class? 00:51:43.610 --> 00:51:44.900 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>What do you mean I can't achieve? 00:51:44.900 --> 00:51:47.099 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>What do you mean I can't call my product combustible? 00:51:47.110 --> 00:51:47.619 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Oh, yeah. 00:51:47.673 --> 00:51:50.914 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>you know what I I think it takes, uh, few brave. 00:51:51.306 --> 00:51:55.532 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Who then succeed, uh, if they succeed, because if they fail, it's not gonna work. 00:51:55.532 --> 00:52:00.063 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But it takes a few brave who succeed and then, uh, many others will follow. 00:52:00.362 --> 00:52:02.072 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, I hope that's, that's the case. 00:52:02.077 --> 00:52:09.753 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let, let's end this depressing episode with this, this promising thought that the future may actually be nice and fire safe. 00:52:10.092 --> 00:52:13.260 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm giving myself a plus in American system. 00:52:13.530 --> 00:52:21.213 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You've tried like five times to move me into the data, and I've resisted the urge because I want to have another episode with you, Brigit. 00:52:22.005 --> 00:52:26.701 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>thank you very much for coming and, and having this, uh, hopefully interesting, uh, discussion. 00:52:27.641 --> 00:52:31.570 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Another, I'm gonna call it a Metro Philosophical Fire science episodes. 00:52:32.411 --> 00:52:33.371 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, I really enjoyed it. 00:52:33.371 --> 00:52:33.981 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you so. 00:52:34.652 --> 00:52:35.822 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Well, thank, thank you. 00:52:35.891 --> 00:52:37.822 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I, I truly enjoyed it as well. 00:52:37.822 --> 00:52:46.282 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>And, and, and as I said, thank you, thank for having me relive, uh, some of that history and, and help making sure that the, the younger generation is aware of it. 00:52:46.282 --> 00:52:49.402 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Um, I, I'm a little sad to hear that you find it a depressing episode, 00:52:50.376 --> 00:52:51.096 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>No, I'm just 00:52:53.697 --> 00:52:58.367 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>as, uh, necessary for us to understand in order so that we can go forward even. 00:52:58.873 --> 00:53:00.813 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's, maybe not, uh, depressing. 00:53:00.813 --> 00:53:02.612 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's, it's cleansing and, and 00:53:02.822 --> 00:53:03.242 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Yes, 00:53:03.932 --> 00:53:11.023 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>and, I hope it shows a way forward and, uh, I hope this way will be discovered by the, the future generation of fire engineers. 00:53:11.713 --> 00:53:12.643 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>I hope so too. 00:53:13.362 --> 00:53:16.929 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>don't don't believe our standards are Great for your materials. 00:53:17.019 --> 00:53:19.360 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you're listening, fire Science show in 2030. 00:53:19.750 --> 00:53:23.860 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I, I wonder what test methods you have, and I hope you're doing good job with them. 00:53:24.250 --> 00:53:24.369 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay. 00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:24.849 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you. 00:53:25.059 --> 00:53:25.409 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, 00:53:26.373 --> 00:53:27.012 <v Birigtte Messerschmidt>Thank you 00:53:27.193 --> 00:53:28.231 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>uh, And that's it. 00:53:28.478 --> 00:53:28.717 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay. 00:53:28.717 --> 00:53:30.938 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now I owe Birgitte to apology. 00:53:30.967 --> 00:53:32.498 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It was not a depressing episode. 00:53:32.947 --> 00:53:37.764 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I've listened to it once again, while editing and it was full of insight. 00:53:37.795 --> 00:53:38.335 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Openness. 00:53:38.364 --> 00:53:43.284 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Honesty and a willingness to build something better for the future. 00:53:43.614 --> 00:53:48.355 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There's nothing wrong in saying that some things to did not work out as planned. 00:53:48.355 --> 00:53:49.315 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There's nothing wrong. 00:53:49.375 --> 00:53:53.961 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In saying that, the standards may not be future-proof actually, I find this. 00:53:54.081 --> 00:54:02.425 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And encouraging speak so openly about the limitations of the current system, because sometimes these limitations can. 00:54:02.452 --> 00:54:09.260 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Turn into disasters, which we don't want to have as our only motivation for a developing and growth. 00:54:09.889 --> 00:54:13.039 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope this was interesting too, to all of you. 00:54:13.429 --> 00:54:15.050 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It was certainly very interesting to me. 00:54:15.050 --> 00:54:20.945 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I really love having such a deep, honest, open conversations in the podcast. 00:54:20.945 --> 00:54:22.114 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And this is not the first one. 00:54:22.534 --> 00:54:23.224 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Were we. 00:54:23.302 --> 00:54:27.514 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Criticize or just talk openly about the far testing regime. 00:54:27.905 --> 00:54:30.795 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There has been an episode with Anja Boelinghaus Hoffmann. 00:54:31.414 --> 00:54:32.494 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, about boss flammable. 00:54:33.443 --> 00:54:36.875 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>there was an episode with Piotr Turkowski fire resistance. 00:54:36.934 --> 00:54:38.375 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now, now this episode. 00:54:38.735 --> 00:54:39.695 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There's also an episode. 00:54:40.175 --> 00:54:40.844 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Ruben van Coile. 00:54:40.864 --> 00:54:41.914 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you've missed that. 00:54:42.275 --> 00:54:45.125 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Where Rubin proposes a completely new pathway. 00:54:45.574 --> 00:54:50.844 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, for, for new fire safety and actually after we stopped recording with Birgit. 00:54:51.204 --> 00:54:54.025 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We've briefly discussed that while that may be it. 00:54:54.054 --> 00:55:01.434 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That may be the trick that we need to actually advancing a completely different way, different manner that we have been advancing so far. 00:55:01.824 --> 00:55:05.514 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It doesn't mean that the system is not working completely or that the system. 00:55:05.644 --> 00:55:06.875 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Is built with some wrong. 00:55:07.144 --> 00:55:14.681 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Principles in mind is it's built the best way that the people before us knew and, We just have weaknesses, like everything in the world. 00:55:14.740 --> 00:55:16.630 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's not fail proof. 00:55:17.050 --> 00:55:21.340 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And with the emergence of new materials with emergence of new solutions assemblies. 00:55:21.538 --> 00:55:26.338 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>New things that we consider important sustainability, circular economy and stuff like that. 00:55:26.728 --> 00:55:29.574 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We will definitely need more open. 00:55:29.599 --> 00:55:32.300 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Minds and a much better. 00:55:32.659 --> 00:55:36.538 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, view on safety, then, then just blindly following standards. 00:55:36.597 --> 00:55:38.878 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We without even questioning where they came from and. 00:55:39.268 --> 00:55:41.277 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What they were applicable to. 00:55:41.788 --> 00:55:43.108 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So once again, Birgit. 00:55:43.498 --> 00:55:46.347 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you so much for this conversation. 00:55:46.708 --> 00:55:48.327 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope you've all enjoyed it. 00:55:48.382 --> 00:55:52.510 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And, yeah, more great stuff coming your way next Wednesday. 00:55:52.510 --> 00:55:53.889 <v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So see you here again.

089 - Designing law by disasters (or not?) with Birgitte Messerschmidt

Available Results

Quick Summary

Deep Knowledge Extract

Business Ideas

Action Items

Methods & Frameworks

Resources Mentioned

Quick Summary

Deep Summary

Knowledge Blocks

Topic Map

Quick Summary

Deep Summary

Knowledge Blocks

Topic Map

Health Tips

Business Ideas

Book Recommendations

Methods & Frameworks

Risks and Caveats

Action Items

Quotes and Claims

Resources Mentioned

Deep Knowledge Extract

Extract Knowledge

Transcript

Chapters