Preventing and Talking with Kids about Addiction with Jess Lahey

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. I'm going to be interviewing Jessica Leahy, who is the author of several books. She was a first known for the book The Gift of Failure, but we're mostly talking in this interview about her next book, which is called The Addiction Inoculation, which is how parents can help inoculate their kids, as it were, against addiction to drugs and alcohol in a culture that often does not make that particularly easy to do, and you know, particularly looking at it through the lens of people who might have a family history of substance abuse. As we learn more about how genetics plays a role in these things, leaving some people far more vulnerable to being, you know, falling prey to abuse of substances in the course of their lives. If your kids are dealing with that genetic inheritance, how you can particularly take actions to make the odds better for them that they will come through the adolescent transition in a healthy manner. So a lot to think about with This is a really great interview. I hope people will really enjoy listening to it. Sarah, you were saying you feel like you already know Jess from the internet world. I was just commenting on like the parasocial relationships of podcasting, I think, especially where I'm like, oh, yeah, just lay like my friend. And then I was thinking about this and I'm like, she doesn't know me, Like I've never spoken to her. She may or may not know who I am. Maybe she does if she's listened to Best of Both Worlds ever, But yeah, isn't that weird? It's kind of weird. It is. It is funny, I mean, because when you listen to someone every week or even more frequently, sometimes you do feel like you know their life and you know their story and you know how they're going to answer things. You're like, oh yeah, and you forget that it's not a two way street, Like you're listening to these people and they aren't listening to you. I mean, I definitely have that feeling about various podcasts that I've listened to over the years, and it's like, yeah, the person you know doesn't know me from Adam. And then sometimes the world's collide and you have to just deal with that. Like I had a parent that's going to hi, if you're listening to this, I'm not going to say your name, but like they saw me on the email of like the camp and then she emailed me and she's like, oh my god, I listened to your podcast and then we had a plateate and it was lovely and like now I know her like a normal human. But that very beginning moment, you're like, oh, like this is just so weird. They know things about me, but like is it the real you? And you live up to that and I don't know, it's all very confusing. Well, I just think it's kind of fun if I meet people who've been listening to the podcast or reading the blog, and then I don't have to like sit there and like say who I am? Or like to describe my history to bring them up to date, so then they can just talk and it's far more interesting because then I can just like get to know them and they don't have to like fill in the details of me, because I've been that is true, doing that for years, but no, I've really had to. Actually, it's been a lot of fun. I've met a fair number of people in person who have read my blog or have listened to this podcast over the years, and it's it's always great. I love actually when I it can be a two way street. One of the things we've particularly like with with our Patreon community is we're getting to chat with people once a month and start putting like names to faces of people that we've seen comment on blogs over the years and things like that. So that's definitely been really really cool, because yeah, I mean, if people are commenting for going we know you, we definitely get to know you too through that and hopefully want to do that with more people too. So always trying to figure out how to make blogging and podcasting as much of a two way street as possible. Yes, and eventually sometimes you make friends and you forget that's how you met them. In the first place, which is kind of funny. It's true. It's true. Well, speaking of which I have met just a few times in person though, so this is a it's funny because yes, I feel like I've probably only seen her like four times in person or something over the years, and yet I'm like, oh, yes, Jess from way back, but we've chatted a few times. This was a really fun interview. So anyway, I hope you guys enjoy it. We'll be here with Jesslyhy Well. Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Jessica Lahey to the program. She is the author of The Addiction Inoculation and The Gift of Failure. So, Jess, can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Sure thing. So, my name is jess Lahy, and I live in outside of Burlington, Vermont. Was a teacher for about twenty years and now basically get to have the coolest job in the whole world, which is to get curious about things, research them, and write books about them, and then and travel around the country and speak about them. And you know, the addiction moculation comes out of the fact that I'm in recovery myself. I have eight and a half years of recovery. I'm an alcoholic and have two kids, and I just sort of wanted to figure out, you know, what their risk look like and what I what's in my control and what's not in my control in order to you know, keep them as safe as humanly possible with of course, assuming they are no guarantees in the universe, so no guarantee is on anything. Certainly, this is an issue a lot of people are thinking about. I mean, are there particular issues for you know, people who do have a family history then I mean, is it a different sort of thing or is it just something all of us need to think about in general. Yeah, So it turns out that genetics and unfortun for us, the genetics around substance use disorder, which is, by the way, what we're supposed to be calling it instead of addiction substance use disorder, genetics are really complicated. They're linked in with personality and brain chemistry and all kinds of things. It's not like something that we're going to be able to identify one gene and then flick it out using like crisper technology. So kids who are born to people who have let's say a first or second degree relative with alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder of any kind. It looks like about fifty to sixty percent of the risk is the genetics. And then there's this stuff called epigenetics, which is kind of environment and kind of genetics. It's sort of how stresses that we are exposed to in our lives. What happens around us impacts how our genes express themselves. So, yeah, I mean, I have kids who came into this world at a higher risk for substance use disorder, and so given that, how does that factor into the decisions I'm in around you know, what they're exposed to, and the choices I make around you know, how I parents. That was sort of interesting to me. But on the other hand, you also have to remember that, you know, any kid can end up relying on substances instead of you know, it's not just about genetics, and it's not like also, it's not like if you have the genetics for substance use disorder that you're doomed. My sister, you know, came from the same parents I did, and she has just a regular ole I hate to use the word normal, but does not have an issue with substance use disorder. My husband was born into a family with substance use disorder, and he has no issues with substance use disorder. So yeah, it is part of the picture, but it's not the whole picture. Well, I wonder if you could distinguish a little bit then, because you said a normal drinking and we're using the quotes there right. Nobody can see us doing that. We're not recording the video, but we're both using our quote marks around the normal drinking versus I mean, if you characterized hery, what what led you to think that you were dealing with more of an issue than say, your husband having the same glass of wine. So I didn't have just one glass of wine hardly ever. So you know, I think we're in a really cool place in this culture right now, where given various books that have come out on sort of the sober curious, like looking at your own individual relationship with alcohol or substances and saying, okay, well, I don't have to take a quiz in a magazine about am I an alcoholic and score a ten to decide because this label applies to me, I now have to do something about it. I think We're in this really cool place in our culture where these books and the culture itself is starting to say, look, if you don't like the influence that alcohol or a substance is having on your life, and you think it's problematic for you, then go ahead and you know, try sober January or you know, there's all kinds of these sort of sober curious months now that you can sort of check out what it's like to not drink. And there are a lot of people who are saying, Okay, well I'm going to give it a shot for a month or a year and see what it's like. So for me, I definitely scored high on the quizzes. I knew I was an alcoholic for a while before really my life started to come apart at the seams, But it wasn't until my dad sort of came to me and said, you know, I know what an alcoholic looks like, and you're an alcoholic and you need help. And at that point I knew he was right. So I think it's a really individual decision, and I think we get into a lot of trouble when we start comparing war stories or like, am I as much of an alcoholic as you are, and I work at a rehab and that's one of the first traps that a lot of people tend to fall into when they get talking to other people in recovery, and there's these horrible sentiments like, you know, I've spilled more than you ever drank. You know, that kind of horrible comparison really gets in the way of people deciding what's right for them and whether or not their individual relationship with alcohol needs to be reevaluated. So for me, it was pretty clear. For some people it's just you know, man, I really don't like the way I feel when I drink, and it's really messing with my parenting or my job or whatever. Well, I think it was one of the most interesting parts of the Addiction and Oculation when we were talking about this is of course, you were a very high functioning yes person in terms of dealing with alcoholism. But many of the people who sort of knew you and in fact knew you pretty well, would not have pegged that at all because you weren't doing any of those things that you read about in the addiction memoirs. I mean, you were getting your kids to school and getting yourself to work and getting a family functioning, and so it can look like different things. Yeah, I was a full time middle school teacher, teaching a very full schedule. I was teaching almost every period of the day. And at that point I had started writing for The Atlantic, and I was publishing an article every at least two weeks. So that's a whole other full time thing going on there. And then, frankly, the drinking was a full time job too, So you know, really I had three full time jobs. And I was a parent, and you know, I was trying to maintain my marriage to a person who knew what our family risks looked like and had made it really clear that he did not want to raise his children in that context. And so I knew if I was found out, I risked being fired, I risked divorce, I risked all kinds of things. And I hit it. I was so good at hiding it, and I was so careful that you know, very close friends of mine, as you said, I had to convince them that I, you know, had a problem. I had one friend really disagree with me, and I don't know if that was because she was I mean, I know it's because she loves me, but I think a lot of people get worried that I'm judging them when I talk about my own drinking, or if I turned down a drink that that's you know a lot of people at the common response I'll get sometimes if I explained that I don't drink, someone will say, oh, yeah, I should. I should really cut back to So, you know, there's all sorts of reasons that people, you know, want to put. It's easier if you can categorize. It's easier if there's like a quiz you can take and get a certain score and then you know, you know for sure that you're an alcoholic. But it took me a long time to get there. Yeah. Now, obviously teens are very curious about substances in general. Yep, and probably a lot of young people are going to try things. But what is it about the teen brain that is particularly problematic for them starting any sort of alcohol or substance abuse. Well, for context, you know, there's all these camps addiction and you know, substance use and all this stuff. There are these camps, you know, like alcohol use disorder is a brain disease. Alcohol use disorder is a reaction to trauma. But there's a whole entire camp that believes that alcohol use to well substance use disorder is a developmental disorder. It's a developmental issue because the adolescent brain, you know, is going through the second most just monumental overhaul of you know, the connections and the brain, and you know, all this growth is happening. But the other thing you have to realize is that the very purpose of adolescence is to push kids out of their family and get them to try new things and become their own person. And so a lot of people like to say that adolescents have a real that they're wired for risk, and that's not true. Adolescents are wired for novelty. And there's a very good reason for that. That's one of the reasons is that dopamine, which is the neurotransmitter in our brain that sort of makes us it's not just about joy, it's not just about happiness or about pleasure. It's about drive. It's the very thing that makes us get out of the bed in the morning and go out into the world and do stuff. And adolescents have lower baseline dopamine levels than little kids or adults, So you know, your adolescent is sort of perpetually slightly bored because their dopamine levels are lower. Their brains are wired to seek out novelty because the purpose of adolescence is to try new things and get competent at them so they can go out in the world. And you know, drugs and alcohol offer a novel way to experience the world. And on top of that, drugs and alcohol offer a way to cope with emotional pain, trauma unresolved, you know, whether that's social ostracism or academic failure, or you know, they've just never been offered any other way to deal with some sort of pain that they've experienced during their lives. So there's a lot of different reasons that adolescents are really Oh and then of course there's you know, peer pressure and the fact that it's available. There are lots of factors. But yeah, there's no other time in life where they're more likely to pick up addictive substances. In fact, as soon as they get to be out of this period of cognitive development that ends in the early to mid twenties, the chances that they're going to initiate drug or alcohol use actually go way down or develop substance use disorder. Tend to go down, So it's a prime time for this sort of picking up a new substance and finding that it solves some problems for them, at least in the short term, though often creating others. So exactly, we'll take a quick break and we will be right back talking with Jess Lahy. Well, I am back with Jess Lahy talking about the addiction, inoculation and other such related topics. And I think you've you know, wrote as well about one of the issues for children who are growing up with a family history of substance abuse is that the earlier they do try these substances, the more at risk they are for you know, bringing about the full scale addiction. What's going on there. Well, so it turns out that when you talk to people who have substance use disorders as adults, ninety percent of them report that they started with drugs i'll call before age eighteen. But when you break it down into okay, so what is the risk at various ages we have some really great data on, especially for like breaking it down to like eighth grade, tenth grade, and twelfth grade. Those are sort of the groups that we have great data on. And for example, if a kid starts has their first drink in eighth grade, which you know, for a lot of kids, that's about when they might start. Like thirteen point five is the average age of initiation for kids. So if we're waiting, by the way, ps, if we're waiting to do substance use disorder prevention until like that age, then we're behind the eight ball. So anyway, so if a kid starts in eighth grade, there are chances of having substance use disorder during their lifetime is somewhere around fifty percent. But the older they get, the lower that number gets, the lower that percentage gets. So if we can get them to eighteen or to twenty one, then we're really getting back down really close to that ten percent, which is what it is in the general population, around where it is in the general popular So yeah, the older kid is the lower there's statistically the lower their chances are, and partially that has to do with the fact that their brain gets to finish developing unimpeded. There's also some statistical issues there. I happen to be married to a statistician, so he's constantly coming back at me with, oh, but there are these confounders and those confounders, and I talk about those in the book, but on a basic level, that's what the statistics look like. So that the key here is just delay, delay delay. The older the age of initiation is, the lower the chances are that your kid will end up experiencing substance use disorder. So when would you recommend starting to talk to kids about you know, alcohol and about yeah, and says in general, the earlier the better. The book starts with scripts for kids as young as preschool, in kindergarten, and no, we're not talking about you know, Heroin with little little kids. We're talking about things like why we don't swallow the toothpaste when we brush our teeth, why we don't take medications that don't have our name on the label if it's a prescription medication. Those kind of conversations, and they can be fun, like if your kid is learning the letters of the alphabet and you could say, you know the letters of mommy's name are, and you give them the letters, can you look for those letters? And that can lead to a conversation about, well, why do you think mommy's name is even on that bottle? Like why put someone's name on a bottle of medicine. What would happen if, like you had the same sickness that mommy has, could you just take my medicine? Well, of course not. We're different people, different body chemistry, different sizes, that kind of stuff. And then as kids get older in the book, I lay out scripts for you know, as kids develop cognitively, emotionally, you know, in terms of what they're seeing in the media, all of that kind of stuff, all the way up through college, ways to talk to your kids. So the earlier the better. You know, while you're talking to kids about not eating those tide pods, you can also be talking to them about why there are certain things we put in our body and why there are certain things we don't put in our body. Yeah. And in terms of again, children who maybe have a history of family family history of substance abuse, are there particular scripts you would recommend for them, because again, the more they can delay, like a drink for them at age seventeen is different than a drink for maybe another child at age seventeen. And so what are some scripts maybe you can counsel those young people to use. Yeah, So I for me, once I got hold of my own drinking. I realized that what was going to have to be a part of the conversation with them, given that they were at higher risk, has to do with sort of, okay, well if you do try drugs and alcohol, and what does it look like feel like when use turns to maybe something bigger, and you know, and also understanding that there are different kinds, and you know, to reassure parents, lots and lots of kids are going to try drugs and alcohol and they are the vast majority are going to be fine. But having that conversation about my own story and how it start, it was so slow. It was hard for me even now to pinpoint when exactly it turned from just you know, social use to abuse, but talking to them about that, talking to them about the fact that they're at elevated risk, talking to them about what it feels like when you're just really starting to I hate using this phrase. Some people you self medicate, or you know, when you're avoiding emotion or when you're avoiding the problems in your lives and using substances to sort of quote unquote self medicate. Those are really important conversations to have, not just for someone with an elevated risk. But for my kids in particular, we have a lot of conversations about the fact that they are at elevated risk. That there's so many people in our family both sides who have really spent a lot of have wasted a lot of time in their lives not being present for their lives and what that has looked like for them, and they've had some object lessons in that they've seen it for themselves, So talking about that has been super important. So really being honest about what happened to your relatives about you know, yeah, absolutely, I think part of that comes out of the fact that I have a particular hatred of gaslighting kids euphemisms. You know, I was never allowed to talk about, you know, my parents' use. We were never allowed to identify what Susan Schiever refers to as the elephant in the room. You know, there's a big things stomping on our family and wrecking things, and we weren't allowed to point at it and say, hey, look that's an elephant. We were told no, no no, no, that's not an elephant, that's something else, or even worse, there's nothing there to see. So for me, my trust in kids' ability to handle it, and my intense hatred for gaslighting kids sort of has led us to a place where we talk about it all the time. It's a part of our reality, and if they're going to stay healthy, it's a part of their reality as well. Yeah, so you mentioned that, I mean, the teen brain is wired for novelty. What are some ways that we can help them seek out novelty that is not going to result in an elevated risk of substance abuse. Well, first off, keeping in mind that you know, one of the ways that we can really protect kids is by doing early intervention for some of the things that are the biggest risk for substance use disorder, Like you know, obviously aces adverse childhood experiences. If your kid has experienced you know, abuse and neglect, If your kid has been through a divorce. Divorce and separation is actually an adverse childhood experiences according to the Centers for Disease Control. If your kid has experienced social ostracism, if your kid has experienced academic failure, if your kid is aggressive towards other children, if your kid has a learning difference, those are all reasons to say, Okay, well, let's address this nice and earthly so that we can sort of stay on top of it, because all of those things do increase a kid's risk for substance use disorder. But I think the best way to talk about this sort of wired for novelty stuff is I was talking to doctor Dan siegeln author and scientist I so I love so much, and I was interviewing him for the book, and I was talking to him about how worried I was by the fact that we moved my kid between middle school and high school, which is one of the riskiest times in terms of initiating substance use. I took him away from his friends, I took him away from the parents of those friends that I trusted with my child, and I was freaked out. So I told doctor Dan Siegel that, and he said to me, Okay, well, you could think about it that way, or you could turn it on its head and you could turn it into a strategy for prevention, because what is a move other than an incredible opportunity for novelty. You can help push your kid toward positive opportunities for novelty, like learning to drive in a new place, meeting new people, exploring new places. These are all opportunities to boost my kid's dopamine with novelty that are not harmful for him. So if you're not moving something like getting your kid to try out for a play if that's not normally something they would do, or encouraging your kid to try something that's a little bit scarier outside their comfort zone. All of these things, that act of gaining mastery over something, that act of overcoming a fear, that all leads to something called self efficacy, which is one of the most preventative things we can give our kids. It's self efficacy, feelings of agency, feelings of competency. These are all incredibly important. And the competency thing, if you want to know more about that, go read Gift of Failure, my first book. But all of that sort of whenever a kid is like, yeah, I'm proud of myself I did that, that is a massive boost of dopamine. So if they can get it there rather than from you know, some drug or alcohol, then then yay us. Yay them exactly. And if a child tells you, a young person tells you that they have tried you know, yeah, drugs, alcohol and all that. I mean, I guess it's a great thing that they feel confident telling you. I mean, that's certainly a good thing that you're in that position to be a relationship. But how would you recommend reacting to that. Yeah, so, first and foremost, do not This is not like a oh my kid is ruined or oh all my work is down the drain. Now that's sort of that sort of thinking is akin to that whole like, oh, Okay, you had sex for the first time, so now you're like dirty in some way. That's a horrible way to sort of approach these things. Realize that this is an experience you had, and here are some of the possible negative consequences. Oh, and do not take those negative consequences away. If a kid got in trouble, if a kid got arrested, if a kid you know, got detained, all of these things are sort of important for them to go through. So if you're constantly rescuing those kids from those consequences, not getting the feedback they need, but being forgiving, explaining that this does not change the way you feel about them, that this hasn't like ruined anything. This is a learning experience, and what is going to be so important is that they learn from this and then give them some information about as you know, I go into a lot of detail in the Addiction and Oculation about what drugs and alcohol do to the adolescent brain. Drugs and alcohol are a lot more dangerous in the adolescent brain than they are in an adult brain. This is not adult drug and alcohol use we're talking about. We're talking about a very plastic brain that is really susceptible to environmental interference, you know, by chemicals or experiences or whatever. And understanding that is going to be really key to helping them see you know, what they need to do in order to sort of keep their brain intact and continue to grow and continue to learn. But that forgiveness and that whole like, that's okay, this is an experience and we all make mistakes and we all learn from experiences. So what are we going to take forward from this? And for probably many of our listeners who do drink some probably not a lot, But what should you do in terms of your own like, you know, having wine with dinner while the kids are around, or like what is good for modeling if you are in a family where that maybe isn't an issue, what's an appropriate way to model responsible alcohol use? So in our family, I don't drink, but my husband does. And so my husband, we don't keep open alcohol in the house just because he's being considerate to me so that I don't have to think about it. So we have, you know, a moderate drinker in the house, and we have a non drinker in the house. And so one of the things, even with Tim's moderate use, one of the things we have to think about all the time is, you know, what are we saying about what are we showing them about why we drink. So, for example, if you're coming home and sort of talking about the fact that you sort of need a drink in order to deal with whatever's on on that day, or you're going to a stressful family event and you're really hoping there's going to be boozed there, you know they're about to be one there because this is like how I'm going to you know, be able to get through this day. That language around why you drink is the stuff that they're going to hear or see. And so I am never going to say unless someone you know clearly has a substance use disorder and they're modeling really unhealthy behaviors for their kids, I'm never going to say you can't drink in front of your kids. I am going to think ask you to think really carefully about what messaging you're sending around why you are drinking. And that conversation is so much fun to extend out. You know, I'm a total dork here. I just revealed that through this so much fun thing. It's really fun to go and talk about like what the media does in terms of its messaging. And you know, why do you think that you you know, it's so important to have beer at a Super Bowl party? What is it about alcohol? And you know the NFL and the partnership they have with a lot of their advertise that makes it so ubiquitous for there to be beer at a super Bowl party. So all of that stuff. And by the way, adolescents hate being manipulated. So a fun conversation to have is about what do you think they're really selling in this ad? Are they selling beer? Are they selling the You know, if you drink this beer, you will have lots of friends, and you will be very pretty or attractive, and you will go to all these parties and you will be able to run faster or whatever. Yeah, highlighting how the media works to manipulate our opinions about ourselves. Is another fun way to go with that conversation. Yes, teams definitely want to know that they are one up on that. Yeah, it's actually really in those conversations about advertising in general are so much fun. We have them actually all the time, Like what is this ad really selling? It's really been It's an interesting conversation. Yeah, And if you can make the narrative that they are sticking it to the alcohol companies by not not following their reason or I suppose the tobacco companies too, right by Yeah, it's actually when you look at like when you look at the sports that have the highest rates of substance use for the players, you also find that, for example, football is one of them. They're sort of the top four high contact sports. Football, rugby, ice hockey, and wrestling are the top four. But when you look at the amount of marketing that is done if you watch like a soccer match or you watch a football match, it's no accident that where those logos are in terms of where the camera is going to be most often and how much money is involved. And I talk about this in the Addiction and Oculation. When you talk to kids about the fact that you know, those companies know that if they hook you in as a loyal customer at a young young age, that is millions and millions of dollars that they are sort of investing at an early age in order to get you hooked on their product, just in terms of brand loyalty. So yeah, that's the thing I love so much about teenagers is that they're so they so hate being manipulated. So it's so cool to talk to them about the ways that other people do try to manipulate them and help them understand it. Yeah, and hopefully make make good choices as a result. Well, just we always end with a love of the week. I can go first if you want to take a minute to think about what yours? This is just something that cool is happening doing, reading, seeing, enjoying. I am actually, I actually, I am so excited to hear what yours is? I am so excited. I love this part of the show. Well, might may not be that interesting to say, I am rereading The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, which is you know, I read it probably twenty five plus years ago for the first time, and in fact, it came out in like nineteen ninety Yeah, which is always funny to read a sort of self help and time management book that came out so long ago, because you know, people always wasted time but mark different things so exactly but worth Fax machines or something. I don't know what we were wasting time with, but yes, So I've been enjoying rereading that and seeing where Stephen Covey is going with it. So how about you. So I just came off of a week of just total bliss and happiness. I'm finally back out on the road for speaking. As you know, a lot of speakers have had to do all virtual stuff and that's just not as much fun. And so I got to take my eighteen year old on the road with me. And the reason I took him is that I was going to I was in Colorado, and at the end of the week in Colorado, one of his favorite musicians, Porter Robinson, was going to be performing at Red Rocks and so and I've never been to Red Rocks. I am, I'm fifty one. I'm dating myself here, but you know the U two live at Red Rocks under a blood red sky was like, I mean, going to Red Rocks was like a bucket list thing for me. So we got tickets and we went to see Porter Robinson and a bunch of other acts at Red Rocks this past weekend. And I'm running out of time, time to spend to go on a week long road trip with my eighteen year old and for us, you know, sitting side by side in a car, that's when we have our best conversations. And I had to make my way across the state of Colorado for three separate events and then drive back at the end. So it was a lot of car time. It was good audiobook time, and it was good just bonding time with my kid. I'm so happy to have those opportunities. It's it was invaluable to me. Wonderful Red Rocks. Yeah, I've never been there. It sounds sounds pretty arazing. Yes, the you two much better. Yeah, it was even more beautiful and even more acoustically beautiful than I ever expected. Was your kid like you too? Mom? What come on? We actually I had shown him the videos to help him understand sort of, you know. And you know, you two also had the fire. There are these towers down near the stage, and of course they had fire blasting out of the towers on and it was just it was ridiculous. And even the performers, they would step out on the stage and these for young people. You know, Porter's only twenty eight, twenty seven to twenty eight, and all of the other performers were about the same age, and so they all of them got up on the stage and they were like, holy crap, red rocks. You know, it's it doesn't It was almost it was so cool to see them have the same childlike experience of being in this space as the people in the audience were having. It was just beautiful. It was on everybody's bucket list, performers and audiants alike. Exactly. Yeah. Well, Jess, thank you so much for doing this. Can you let our listeners know where they can find you. You can always find me at Jessica Lahy dot com and my social media jim a lot. I'm on Twitter a lot and that's at Jess Lahey and I'm on Instagram at teacher Lahy. Excellent, Jess, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. All right, Well, that was great. So this next question comes from a longtime listener of Best of Both Worlds and More recently best laid plans. She says that she is twenty nine and doesn't have kids yet, though she hopes too soon, and she has found best of both worlds to be pertinent to her busy life. She says on that note, she is addressing this to Sarah, I wonder if you and Laura would ever want to do an episode on how to navigate caring for or ranging for care for elderly and aging parents. She is an only child of older parents who are in their seventies, and her dad is in the early phases of dementia. It has been incredibly taxing trying to figure out how to organize the times that can help out my mom while also trying to balance having a puppy, a demanding job, and a spouse. And I can't even imagine how much more difficult it would be if she had kids too, she says, So she is curious how others navigate this. So I don't have an answer. So I chose this question, which was sent to me, not because I had an answer, but because I thought that I think this would be a great topic for a future episode, and I was sort of hoping maybe somebody else has some good answers or experiences to share. I know with my parents, you know, they're still completely independent, and they've actually done a lot of their own future planning as to where they prefer to end up, you know, even going so far as to putting down a deposit and selecting like a retirement community that has increasing phases of care should you need them. But my parents did a great job with that and are very good planners and I think being very realistic, Whereas I know that is not necessarily the case for many, because some people don't want to think about those tough topics or just feel like those things will work themselves out, and maybe sometimes they do, and you just never know with this, I mean they this writer wrote something like everyone will go through this, but that's not true. Not everybody even gets to have aging parents. Sometimes parents will die earlier, or you know, you never know. So I guess I'm just looking for some guidance here as well. I would love to learn from someone who has gone through this and has things to share, or perhaps someone in the industry who might be able to talk about best practices for helping elderly parents. I will say one thing is that the Organized three sixty five franchise. Lisa Woodruff's company has a lot of good materials that are designed to go through like kind of all the nuts and bolts of like your family finances, including those of elderly relatives, because one of the things that inspired Lisa was going through her parents' estate after they died, and so that has a lot of practical guidance for like getting all the bank accounts organized and like doing all the kind of practical detailed things, or understanding their medical their detailed medical history and corralling that in one place. So that is one place you might look towards for some resources on how you might kind of get the more practical things sorted out, But it doesn't as much address the emotional side, which has to be incredibly difficult. Yeah, but we'd love to do a future episode with a listener who has navigated this and has some good things to share, or an expert in the industry who can talk about how to have these conversations with relatives and the practical things you need to think about. So feel free to reach out to us and we would love to get that scheduled. So this has been best of both worlds. I've been talking with Jess Lahey on the addiction inoculation. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.