Love Is No Defense | EP 8 | Saskia's Story

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, Andrea here, I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal, Secrets and Lies and you can watch it every Sunday at ten pm Eastern Standard time, nine pm Central. Please check it out. Earlier this season, we went through Saska's divorce trial. We talked about all the hurdles that Saskia had to overcome, all the insults she had to endure just to.

00:00:52
Speaker 2: End her marriage.

00:00:53
Speaker 1: But I want to go back to that trial for a second because there's one more moment you need to hear. It's the devil in the details.

00:01:02
Speaker 3: What's on the screen here is vendans Exhibit three.

00:01:08
Speaker 1: This is audio from the middle of the divorce trial. During Mike's cross examination, Saskia's attorney began by quoting Mike's initial divorce filing.

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Speaker 3: Paragraph eight says all of these acts were consensual, and the paragraph pen that all of these allegations are falls into bavatory, was a serious wreak your good reputation. Do you recall making those statements? Yes, the statements about this being a betrayal and that all acts were consensual, those those were false statement.

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Speaker 4: Those are not false statements.

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Speaker 3: Well, we know that not all the acts were consensual, right.

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Speaker 4: I maintained they were consensual absolutely.

00:01:56
Speaker 1: Remember by this point, Mike had already played guilty to rape in criminal court, but here he was in the divorce trial stating that all of his sexual encounters with Saskia were consensual. Saskia's attorney couldn't understand it. He pulled up the transcript from Mike's guilty plate.

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Speaker 5: In fact, you were asked and this guilty plea by judge coming if you are pleading guilty because you were in fact guilty.

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Speaker 3: If you remember being asked that question?

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Speaker 6: Yes?

00:02:26
Speaker 3: And what was your response to that question?

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Speaker 4: I played, I played guilty because you.

00:02:33
Speaker 3: Were guilty, right, that's yes.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

00:02:39
Speaker 3: So I'm struggling with your previous testimony that all actually be consensual, but you would be found guilty of rape.

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Speaker 6: How is that?

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Speaker 4: Well? I think, first of all, I think you would kind of bifurcate some of some of or have separate, parallel discussions with some of these different topics. There's one thing about the consensual use of pornography, the consensual acts of taking photographs and videos.

00:03:09
Speaker 1: The judge interrupted him, So I would say that I'm going to cut you off.

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Speaker 7: Okay, So you maintain then all acts, all acts between you and miss Enwood, we're consensual. Your plea agreement was that you were pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty of rape. They can't both beeed true. So the question is which one is true.

00:03:54
Speaker 1: I'm Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season five, episode eight.

00:04:00
Speaker 2: Love is No Defense.

00:04:04
Speaker 1: The judge allowed Mike a fifteen minute break to talk with his attorney. When the court reconvened, Saski's attorney asked him again.

00:04:12
Speaker 5: How could it be true that you've led guilty to rape of the dependent, but that all of the acts between you and the dependent working system.

00:04:23
Speaker 4: So I think that I think this is an important point, so to try to explain better. So, based on discussions with my attorneys and my understated, they're explaining to me the statute of rape and the definition of rape and specifically around the use of force.

00:04:46
Speaker 1: You'll remember that at the time marilynd had a law on the books it was legal to rape your wife if she was unconscious unless force was used.

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Speaker 4: My attorneys explained to me the there is no specific amount of force that is required. Force becomes a very subjective thing.

00:05:09
Speaker 1: State prosecutors could only charge Mike with rape in the moments where they could argue he used force, but the examples of force that they identified word slam dunks.

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Speaker 4: The state specifically says the force in these videos, as your honor will see, is forced, such as moving a leg while unconscious.

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Speaker 1: By the time of his divorce trial, Mike had clearly learned a lot about the marital exemption to rape, and he was using it to distance himself from his own guilty plea. Mike told the divorce judge that the whole criminal case against him was based on a technicality. Under the law, the only thing he did wrong was move his wife's leg.

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Speaker 4: So I absolutely pled guilty to that act of moving her leg while she was unconscious semi conscious. I pled toill teach you something that I did do and that I recognized is the plea of second degree rape and I did that, and I admit to that. I think from out of the criminal setting right in kind of a common if you will place environment. I don't believe in my heart that I did that that I wrote her.

00:06:34
Speaker 1: Mike didn't believe in his heart that he raped Saskia. We're going to come back to him and let you in on what he's up to today in the next episode, but before we get to that, we need to talk about why Mike argued this that raping his sleeping wife wasn't rape.

00:06:54
Speaker 2: And the reality is, the law said it wasn't.

00:07:00
Speaker 1: The state was able to prosecute Mike, but they knew it was on a technicality. That's why prosecutors only charged him with three counts of rape and one count of attempted rape despite there being so many videos.

00:07:16
Speaker 2: And it's a big part of why they agreed to.

00:07:19
Speaker 1: Give Mike an eighteen month plea deal. The law said what it said. It wasn't raping your wife if she was unconscious, so Mike got off easy.

00:07:31
Speaker 8: It's a one hundred percent of case that sticks with me because we weren't able to really accomplish full justice.

00:07:37
Speaker 1: That's Debbie Feinstein. She's Chief of the Special Victim's Division at the Montgomery County State's Attorney's Office in Maryland. She supervised the prosecutors on Mike's case back in twenty eighteen when they were just beginning to build the case.

00:07:53
Speaker 8: Debbie knew there were many, many, many more counts of rape that we could have charged him with.

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Speaker 1: She WoT those videos. She saw what Mike did to Soaskia.

00:08:05
Speaker 8: She could not consent. She could not be amenable to what was happening, given the fact that she was physically helpless and mentally capacitated. It's just those two things cannot be true at the same time.

00:08:18
Speaker 1: And yet in the eyes of the law, both things were true. Saskia was consenting even though she was completely knocked out.

00:08:30
Speaker 2: According to the law in Maryland.

00:08:32
Speaker 1: She consented the day she signed her marriage certificate. The marital exemption to rape could be seen as a legal loophole, but that's not quite accurate because laws like this have been around for hundreds of years. They were built into the legal institution of marriage.

00:08:53
Speaker 9: It comes from the common law of England in the sixteen hundreds, when women were chattel, they were possessions. So once you married, the husband could do whatever he wanted to the wife, because she was like a table, your horse, your teapot, that's chattel, that's property.

00:09:15
Speaker 2: That's Lorie Ruth I.

00:09:17
Speaker 9: Am the public policy director at the Maryland Network Against Domestic Violence.

00:09:22
Speaker 1: It's a coalition that represents all the domestic violence service providers in the state. Lurie has dedicated her career to helping survivors of intimate partner violence. For decades, she provided direct legal support, and today she lobbies for bills in the state legislature. Lourie first heard about Marilynd's marital exemption around two thousand and eight. At the time, she was the legal director at a women's rights nonprofit.

00:09:51
Speaker 2: A call came through to her office. The woman on the other line was in the car.

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Speaker 9: She was driving on the Baltimore Belwat and she said, my husband is drugging me and having sex with me and filming it.

00:10:06
Speaker 1: This woman, like Saskia, was incapacitated when her husband assaulted her.

00:10:12
Speaker 9: And I stood up from my desk. I said, you have to pull over, like you can't be driving down the street telling me that story. And I said that is not allowed, that is illegal. It's a crime. He can't do that.

00:10:28
Speaker 2: But then Laurie looked into it.

00:10:31
Speaker 9: Come to find out they're married. Come to find out, here we are in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three. He probably was allowed to do.

00:10:41
Speaker 2: That according to the law. She hadn't been raped at all.

00:10:48
Speaker 1: Over the years, Laurie never stopped thinking about that woman.

00:10:52
Speaker 9: You hear stories like that, and you think somebody needs to be focused on this for the betterment of our society and the citizens and the women and daughters and girls in the state of Maryland.

00:11:07
Speaker 2: But here's the thing.

00:11:09
Speaker 1: This law wasn't just affecting people in Maryland in twenty eighteen when Mike committed these crimes. Marital exemption laws existed all over the country, in red states like Ohio, Michigan, Nevada, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and also in blue states like California, Rhode Island, and Minnesota, and all across the country. There have been people working to end these legal exemptions, people like Stephan Turkheimer.

00:11:39
Speaker 10: We want the law to respect individuals. We want the law of respect survivors' experience. We want the law to create the rules for how we want society to behave and that's not this.

00:11:51
Speaker 1: Stephan leads the public policy team at RAIN, the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network. It's the nation's largest anti sexual violence organization. Stephens's job is to look at laws around the country and see which laws need to be changed to protect survivors.

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Speaker 10: I'm a lawyer, right, but sometimes when you read a law, you're like, this can't be correct. Let me go check, let me see if this is actually being used.

00:12:18
Speaker 1: When he learned about marital exemption laws, that was his first reaction. Maybe these laws were relics of an older time, never actually enforced.

00:12:30
Speaker 10: But it turned out that that was not what was happening. Straight up in Ohio, people that were being sexual assaulted by their husbands through drugs or other means. We're calling the police, and the police were saying, that's not a crime. That's what was happening.

00:12:43
Speaker 1: Stephens met women like Saskia all across the country, women who could ever get full justice for the crimes committed against them.

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Speaker 10: The thing about a law like this, the blackletter rule, is that it's not just like what cases can't go forward, It's that every single survivor can see the and be like the law doesn't recognize my experience. They say that I'm to blame, that I'm not worthy of protection.

00:13:06
Speaker 1: The more cases like Saski as he heard about, the more angry he became.

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Speaker 10: The key is to take that outrage that you have and bring it to people that can change the law, and let them be outraged with you. These are people whose minds can be changed. These are people that want to change laws. That's why they got the job.

00:13:26
Speaker 1: And yet convincing these legislators is no simple task.

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Speaker 10: Sometimes it takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to do something that should be easy.

00:13:36
Speaker 1: In Saskia's case, the prosecutors told us they felt like their hands were tied. Debbie Feinstein wanted to file more charges against Mike, but because of the marital exemption to rape, she couldn't.

00:13:49
Speaker 8: This case spoke volumes because it was exactly why this law didn't make sense. In this case, he got a substantially reduced sense of incarceration. Really because as the meat and potatoes, the heart of the case was taken out from under us because of the spousal defense to rape.

00:14:09
Speaker 1: For Debbie, having to charge Mike on a technicality was a sign.

00:14:13
Speaker 2: Of a larger problem.

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Speaker 1: Even though Mike took the plea, she couldn't let this case go.

00:14:19
Speaker 8: The ones where we can't get to the full right outcome they live within us. But they also drive advocacy, which is what happened in this case.

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Speaker 1: In the state of Maryland, people were working for years to overturn the marital rape exemption.

00:15:00
Speaker 2: These kinds of.

00:15:00
Speaker 1: Laws, laws that have existed for hundreds of years, are difficult to overcome. To rally people to make a change, it often takes a case of massive injustice. Saska's case was exactly that. It was a case with overwhelming evidence, dozens of videos which might extremed to thousands of people, but he was only sentenced to eighteen months.

00:15:29
Speaker 2: It's the kind of story.

00:15:30
Speaker 1: That could get lawmakers' attention. Here's prosecutor Debbie Feinstein again.

00:15:37
Speaker 8: It is singularly the most impactful effective way to approach advocacy and the legislature is to have a case where an individual, a human being, was impacted, and this case spoke volumes.

00:15:51
Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty, just after Mike went to jail, Debbie went to Annapolis. She worked with state lawmakers, legal advocates like Lori and representatives from the Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault to present a bill in the Maryland Legislature, a bill that could overturn the marital exemption once and for all. We got a recording of that legislative session. A representative from Sask's County introduced the bill.

00:16:25
Speaker 11: I'm Jelegate Charlotte Queschfield from Montgomery County, and i am honored to be able to testify today on House of Bill five ninety, also known as Love is No Defense to Sexual Crimes.

00:16:38
Speaker 1: Debbie testified at length, and even though Saskia wasn't there in.

00:16:43
Speaker 8: Person, her case was the highlighted case that we brought to Annapolis.

00:16:49
Speaker 1: Here's Debbie testifying before lawmakers in Montgomery County.

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Speaker 12: We had a case within the last couple of years, and in that case, a spouse raped his wife repeatedly, actually on camera while she was immensely incapacitated. And in that case, marriage was a complete defense to his rape of his wife. It's incredibly disturbing that we could not prosecute the individual for all of those counts of rape that he perpetrated on his wife. He ultimately ended up pleading guilty with a much reduced sentence that really barely scratched the surface of the horrific offenses that I will tell you because I watched those videos, the horrible nature of them that we were unable to prosecute.

00:17:35
Speaker 1: But even with the example of Saski's story, the bill got a lot of pushback. Debbie and her colleagues were trying to eliminate marriage as a defense to all sex crimes first, second, third, and fourth degree.

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Speaker 8: So on the scheme of things, you know, we have rape, and then we have fourth degree sex offense, which is an unconsented to touching, which could be a graze on the breast, a graze on the buttocks or genital area.

00:18:01
Speaker 1: Some legislators were concerned about what the bill would mean for those lower tier offenses.

00:18:08
Speaker 13: What you're saying is, under this bill, the husband would have to get consent that I couldn't roll over at night and just put my hands on a bikini area. I would have to say, excuse me, he's a little bit cold. He's just trying to spice it up a little bit. He rolls over. Now she can say, I'm going to prosecute you for a four to three sex offense.

00:18:25
Speaker 8: That was so disturbing to hear that come out of legislator's mouths.

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Speaker 1: Lorie Ruth, the Public Policy director you heard earlier, felt the same.

00:18:35
Speaker 9: You stare at them and you think, what kind of marriage do you have that you actually think that's going to happen.

00:18:42
Speaker 1: But lawmakers, like all of us, buy into myths about rape accusers. Some think that women are likely to bring false allegations and that they'll use those allegations to their advantage.

00:18:55
Speaker 9: The most common response we see is, how can we be sure that she telling the truth? How can we know that she's not lying? Often followed by to get a leg up in a custody suit. That is a real barrier to getting bills passed.

00:19:16
Speaker 1: Representatives worried that this change would overwhelm the courts.

00:19:21
Speaker 14: The Office of the Public Defender.

00:19:23
Speaker 2: Says, we're going to be swarmed with defendants.

00:19:27
Speaker 15: That this law passes.

00:19:30
Speaker 1: Another advocate, Dorothy Lennig, spoke directly to those concerns.

00:19:35
Speaker 14: I actually find it kind of shocking that the Public Defender is going to argue that they would be swamped with cases. I find it shocking, kind of sad if they're saying that at this point, the only reason we're not protecting women who are accusing their husbands of sexually assaulting them is because of this law.

00:19:53
Speaker 1: But ultimately these concerns were enough to kill the bill. To me, the fact that a bill like this could fail in twenty twenty doesn't make sense. The government wants people to get married, and yet with this law, signing a marriage certificate means limiting your rights.

00:20:16
Speaker 2: As Debbie said.

00:20:17
Speaker 8: To us, we're basically penalizing someone for being married.

00:20:22
Speaker 2: It devies logic. I asked Lorie Ruth about this.

00:20:26
Speaker 9: I don't know that it has to do with logic. There is a deep, deeply seated misogyny at play logic, I don't think so.

00:20:37
Speaker 1: It's also not a partisan issue.

00:20:40
Speaker 9: I think the rest of the country views us as being quote unquote very liberal. But I think if you spend any time in Annapolis, you learn that it's not as simple as that. We have actually had legislators say this, like, you women get one bill this year. Let's say we've got five that are about child support, domestic violence, something else. They'll say, you get one.

00:21:05
Speaker 1: Stepan from Rain has seen these attitudes in other states too.

00:21:09
Speaker 10: When you're presenting to an individual legislator on a bill. There are a few signs you can see about whether or not they're listening to and buying into what you're arguing. One of the main ones is whether or not they reference their granddaughter or their grandson. If they talk about their granddaughter, they're thinking about the survivor if they reference their grandson, they're thinking about the offender. You hear that these people made a mistake or whatever else, something shouldn't ruin their life. All this kind of other stuff, all things that are not backed up in stats or stories. But you still have to deal with them because these are people that can stop your.

00:21:53
Speaker 1: Bill, and they do stop bills all the time, often before the bills can even get a full debate.

00:22:00
Speaker 2: The bills that do make it to the floor are put through the ringer. This is especially true when it's only people.

00:22:07
Speaker 1: Like Stefan Lori or Debbie testifying, when there are no survivors speaking on the bill's behalf.

00:22:13
Speaker 2: Here's Laurie again.

00:22:15
Speaker 9: Sometimes the pushback to us is, well, I know you professionals are talking, but where are the people that this really happens to. Why didn't you bring anybody with you? Isn't there somebody who could speak about this, and you want to say, do you not understand It's not that easy to stand up and talk about the most awful things that have happened in your life to a big room full of people.

00:22:46
Speaker 1: Asking survivors to testify is no small thing. When the bill in Maryland was first introduced, sask was in the middle of her divorce proceedings with Mike.

00:22:57
Speaker 6: I was a shell of a person at that point. I couldn't have gone through the steps of describing what had happened.

00:23:08
Speaker 1: No other survivors like Saskia came forward either, and yet all of the experts we talked to for this episode agreed. So much of the time it's survivor testimony that gets these bills over the line.

00:23:23
Speaker 2: Here's Stefan from Rain again.

00:23:25
Speaker 10: People don't really get motivated by stats and not really, they only get motivated by people and stories and how they make them feel. The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens, and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do.

00:23:46
Speaker 1: In Maryland, when the bill failed, advocates were disappointed, but they weren't ready to give up just yet, and survivors wouldn't stay quiet for long.

00:23:58
Speaker 15: This law treats spouses as objects, not people.

00:24:03
Speaker 16: This is your law, and this is rape.

00:24:26
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty in Maryland, the bill to end the marital exemption failed, but Debbie Feinstein, the prosecutor in Montgomery County, couldn't forget about this law or about Saski's case.

00:24:40
Speaker 8: It lit a huge fire under me, under my team, and we wanted to do whatever we could to change the law.

00:24:49
Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty one, she and other advocates brought the bill again, but again it failed. The same legislators spoke up, determined to keep it from past.

00:25:00
Speaker 13: Isn't the whole purpose of marital exceptions that we don't end up in court talking about who said what in the marital bedroom.

00:25:10
Speaker 1: When the bill was brought for a third year, the same objections resurfaced. It seemed like the marital exemption might be the law of the land forever.

00:25:20
Speaker 2: But then came twenty twenty three. A lot was different about that year.

00:25:26
Speaker 1: New advocates brought new stories of why the law needed to be repealed.

00:25:31
Speaker 6: Because of the spousal defense. I was unable to prosecute this man for raping an unconscious woman.

00:25:38
Speaker 2: More men testified on behalf of the bill.

00:25:41
Speaker 10: We must break the cycle of violence and close this vicious loop.

00:25:46
Speaker 1: But there was one person's testimony that stood out among the rest. It was a survivor's story. We're making the choice to omit her name for her privacy.

00:25:58
Speaker 17: My name is I'm a sexual at survivor and a victim of this law. Less than a year ago, I was raped by my husband, and under the existing law, what he did was legal rape. I could not respond verbally or physically, completely incapacitated, and it constituted consent.

00:26:26
Speaker 15: Because I was married. I had photographic and video evidence of my assault, and instead of my proof being used to prosecute my rapist, it proved his innocence because this chamber made my rape legal. This law treats spouses as objects, not people. We are forced to satisfy sexual desires when we are deprived of strength and power. This is your law, and this is rape. You have an opportunity to correct this remnant of our past, and I'm charging each of you to do that. You've been entrusted with the power to protect your fellow citizens, and please, I implore you make the right decision, provide a path of healing and justice for all future victims like me.

00:27:31
Speaker 17: Thank you.

00:27:37
Speaker 1: This was the first time that a survivor of marital rape came before the legislature and supported this bill. Lorie Ruth, the public policy advocate in Maryland, remembers her testimony.

00:27:49
Speaker 9: Well, those legislators had to look her in the eye and hear an absolutely horrific story.

00:27:58
Speaker 1: Immediately was clear the survivor's words broke through.

00:28:03
Speaker 18: I just want to say thank you. That's the most impactful testimony I've ever heard on this bill. I've heard this a lot too many times, and so I just want to say thank you for your willingness to step forward.

00:28:16
Speaker 1: Hearing this exchange of a legislator thanking this survivor reminds me of something Stephan said earlier.

00:28:24
Speaker 10: The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens, and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do.

00:28:40
Speaker 1: After four years, in May of twenty twenty three, legislators voted to end Maryland's marital exemption The bill passed the House and the Senate without a single no vote. Today, the law that allowed Mike Levin Goood to get off easy no longer exists in Maryland. In the last five years, similar reforms have also passed in other states, including Ohio, Minnesota, California, Mississippi, and Rhode Island. But Stephen says the fight can't stop here.

00:29:15
Speaker 10: Are the laws progressing, Yes, the laws are progressing. Is the United States in a better state than it was five years ago? Yeah? It is. Is it better state than twenty years ago?

00:29:25
Speaker 6: Yeah?

00:29:26
Speaker 10: Is it in a better shape than a lot of other countries? It absolutely is?

00:29:30
Speaker 2: Is it where it needs to be?

00:29:31
Speaker 4: No.

00:29:34
Speaker 1: Five states continue to treat marital rape as a lesser crime Nevada, South Carolina, Virginia, Michigan, and Iowa. And still in about half of the states in the US, rape continues to be defined in.

00:29:49
Speaker 2: Reference to physical force.

00:29:51
Speaker 1: Most of us don't know about these laws or even think about them until they affect us or someone we love. When Saska I first heard that the bill in Maryland had passed and that the marital exemption in her state had been overturned.

00:30:07
Speaker 6: I was like, finally, it makes me feel relieved that I went through all of that, not in vain that there's something good that came out of it. But look how much damage has already been done.

00:30:22
Speaker 1: Changing the law doesn't change what Saska lived through, and it's unlikely to change what Mike thinks. Saskin had only endured abuse. She endured this law, a law that told Mike that what he did wasn't rape.

00:30:38
Speaker 2: In the end, he may always believe he's innocent.

00:30:41
Speaker 4: I don't believe in my heart that I did that that I wrote her.

00:30:52
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Betrayal, we dive into where Mike is today.

00:30:59
Speaker 19: Imagine what it would be like Forsaskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine.

00:31:21
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about the laws in your state, Rain has a database for that. Go to rain dot org slash betrayal that's r ai n n dot org slash betrayal, Click take action and select laws in your state from the dropdown menu. For resources on sexual violence, visit rain dot org slash betrayal. That's r ai n n dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential twenty four to seven support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to six four six and three or call one eight hundred six five six Hope. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That is, Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com.

00:32:30
Speaker 2: We're grateful for your support.

00:32:32
Speaker 1: One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is the production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produce used by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique le Board, also produced.

00:33:07
Speaker 2: By Ben Fetterman.

00:33:09
Speaker 1: Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristin Melcirie, Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The trial's theme is composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mybe Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,