Maternity Leave and Postpartum Health with Advocate and Expert Arianna Taboada.

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Hello, and welcome to best of both worlds. You may notice that this is not our typical Laura doing the intro. I'm actually flying solo today, so this feels quite honestly, really weird. We here up to episode one hundred and thirty, and I have never been on the mic by myself. I have recorded some interviews solo, but this is the first time I've just been in front of this thing alone talking to myself, so I don't know, it's a little different. It's funny. I was thinking about some of my favorite podcasts that have just one host. There's not a ton of them, but some people manage to do it really well. I don't know if I have the chops to be able to get on here and just kind of I don't know, say enough to keep people occupied for any significant chunk of time. But I thought it would be fun to mention some of my favorite podcast hosts that do that. There's Kendra Adacci who does the Lazy Genius podcast. There is the Organized three hundred and sixty five podcasts. That's Lisa Woodruff, who just talks on the mic by herself and she's fantastic at it. Tanya Dalton often brings in guests on her planner focused podcast, but she does a lot of solo portions as well. Denay Barahona also sometimes has some guests on Simple Families, but will also often talk solo. And then Andy from marriage, kids and money, and I apologize I don't know Andy's last name at this moment, but he often will host a podcast solo and does a great job I think pacing things and keeping it interesting even though it's just him. So wow, those are some of my favorites. I think one of the key ingredients to being a successful solo podcast host is well, probably two things. Number one preparation, because you don't entirely have to script a conversational podcast, you can kind of let it flow in whatever direction feels right. But I would imagine that if you're just talking, you had better know what you're going to say, because no one's going to prompt you. You don't want awkward blank space. Like not just kidding, I was going to do some awkward blank space, but that's a little ridiculous, you know what I mean. I also think that it's more effective when the speaker has some valuable knowledge to impart. So you know, someone who is an expert in financial independence or planners like Tanya Dalton, or organization like Lisa do a very nice job. But if it was just sort of a blanket life or motherhood podcast, I think it might be a little bit harder to just kind of riff on one's own. Now, I could sort of imagine like planner cast working, So maybe if I ever did decide to launch a solo side project, we could have planner casts and we would talk about planning techniques and have famous planner guests and I could do planner reviews. And this actually sounds sort of fun. But no, there are no current plans in the work works to begin planner casts, but it is a fun kind of fantasy to think about. All right, well, I'm not going to go on too much longer on my own, but I do want to take a moment to introduce the guests that we're going to have on today's show. Ariana Tabawata is someone I've been following on Instagram for quite a while because I think I think I noticed her. I don't know, in the early days of our podcast. She came up as sort of a motherhood advocate, someone who is passionate about maternity leave rights for women, and she now is running her own basically consulting business helping women craft the best maternity leaves that they can, and that's especially for women that kind of run their own businesses or might be entrepreneurs. And she continues to do a lot of advocacy work. You know, again, we don't this is not a political podcast, but there are principles that I think many of us can agree on, one of which being that mothers in this country, probably in the world, but also in this country need more support and she is working toward that. So I think you'll really enjoy this interview. She's a lovely person. So without further ado, I'm going to welcome Ariana Tabowata to the show. Hello, and I am happy to welcome Ariana. Do you pronounce it tabwaaa? You got it right? Awesome. Well, one of my coworkers actually has the same name, So there you go, and we are so thrilled to have you on the show. Now, I joked that it would have been kind of ridiculous to have Laura take part in this conversation because Arianna is an expert on optimal maternity leaves and practices, postpartum health and all that, So to have Laura participate in a conversation out those things about seven days after giving birth would have been pretty crazy. So it's just going to be me during this conversation. But I'm so happy to have you Ariana. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about your background? Sure? So I'm joining you from the other coast. I'm in California and I live here with my little family, my partner, my son. I'm an internal health professional and social worker by training and worked in clinical settings for some years before going out on my own and starting a private consulting practice where I first did kind of like all the maternal health stuff and then slowly shifted to focusing on postpartum, and then I really honed in on maternity leaves specifically for service based business owners in twenty fifteen, and that's where kind of the sweet spot has been ever since. Oh my goodness, well, then, yes, it would have been crazy to have to Laura here, as she is kind of a service based business owner. I guess, tell me, if you had to design the ideal maternity leave for that class of people you said, service based business owners, what would it look like. Yeah, So, I think the first principle that I like to work with is that designing for your personal needs and your business model means that it's never going to look the same for two people, and so really thinking about how to do both of those things in a thoughtful manner, that's kind of the core of what I work with people on, identifying and then planning out and implementing. There's a few kind of core beliefs that I do have that I'm happy to share one of them, which is why before we got on the MIC, I was just out of curiosity asking if Flora's baby came early. Because one of the things I often talk with people about is to remove any work where they have to show up at around thirty five weeks, so that a lot of times people just don't know when their baby is going to come. I work primarily with first time business or first time moms who are business owners, and so they a lot of times when we first got on the phone, they're like, what are you talking about. I should be done by thirty five weeks, and I was like, well, your baby can come before exactly forty weeks of pregnancy, and so that's one of the things. The other thing that I also like to just help people think about and dig into is what their transitions will look like. So what the transition out of their business will look like. I primarily work with people who have small teams and so thinking about how they are going to both delegate to their team but also prepare their team to function without them if they're in kind of a manager role or a leadership role, which they typically are as a founder. And then also with the transition back is going to look like. I think a lot of people, especially in the US, just have kind of this arbitrary you know, oh, maybe I'll take three months, and because they see people in more traditional workplace settings taking that amount of time. But actually, as an entrepreneur, that's like the silver lining of taking self paid, self funded maternity leave is that you don't have to go back full time at a certain number of weeks or months. So I try and encourage people to really think about how to have a transition period back. No, that totally makes sense as somebody who's employed. Yeah, it's very different because if you're in a large organization, you can schedule up to forty weeks knowing that you already have or in many cases may have a backup network in place. So many physicians, I know, if they're in large groups, they don't want to waste a single moment of their maternity leave, so they do stay on their feet until that baby comes out, but they do know that well, if it happens early, there's sort of automatic backup coverage. And I know that's very different if you're working for yourself, and I love that have a face place to be physically, because you can probably tweak around with deadlines of some deliverables. And I mean, Laura's already been answering emails, which I mean, you'll have to tell me how you feel about that, because I think it's pretty funny actually, but yeah, totally different scenarios, right, yeah, I mean this is also her fifth baby, rights her fifth baby knows what she's doing. No, Like, okay, I will be fine answering emails. I think when it's your first or even your second, that's often you know, one of the big questions is what do I want my boundaries to be? Like what kind of what kind of face time do I want to have in my business when I am off. One of the things that happens a lot is is it's hard for founders to completely one hundred percent step away. So a lot of times they are in touch with their team members, but it's figuring out, well, do you really want to be the one answering client emails or is there someone else who could handle that, or is there you know, a set of ten really frequent client emails that you could pre write out so you're not typing out at all hours of the day and night. Oh I love that. Come up with like ten frequently dealt with scenarios and then have somebody that is hired specifically to basically fill out templated responses and maybe only have like an SOS phone call if things kind of veer off of those predetermined tracks. Is that what you're getting at? Yeah, Essentially, it's like client trioge right, is what is the client triage process going to be when I am not the first point of contact? And honestly, everything from client communications and kind of client flow to just general operating procedures of a business. I see a lot of founders that at this point of pregnancy really being kind of it's the forcing function to having to think about how a business might operate without them. No, that makes sense. So talk a little bit about You're talked about planning maternity leave a bit and the ways you can set things into place and when to start that maternity leave. Talk a little bit about the transition back, because that going to be a little bit trickier and I'm sure is equally individualizable for each person, since for every scenario is so different. Yeah. I mean, so the first thing that I often say is, let's approach planning with just like a spirit of experimentation and curiosity. And I find that planning and quarters in that first year postpartum can work really well for business owners. I mean, you know, lots of things fall along in terms of finances, in terms of quarters, but also just thinking about how their day to day work and day to day schedule might change quarter to quarter in that first year is often helpful because developmentally, their child's needs will also be changing a lot, even in shorter shorter spurts than quarter to quarter, But three months at a time is a nice chunk to be able to work with in terms of planning ahead, and so the we usually when sitting down with someone, I usually plan out the first two quarters back, and that's about as far as we get, because beyond that, it's like, well, you've got to see what kind of baby you end up with and what kind of birth you end up having, and how you end up feeling. So a lot of the planning back is actually thinking about what personal supports do you need in place, What do you know about yourself now that can give you some ideas of what kind of help you want around what kind of household tasks you want support with, so that the personal things don't become a boundary to getting back to work, and so you're able. I found that when people really have a strong support system and strong support network postpartum, then it makes it not like getting back to work is ever easy. But it makes it a little less challenging to get back to work because you're not also having to struggle and plan and problem solve when it comes to all the personal support. Awesome. Well, We're going to take a very quick break and then I'm going to ask you a little bit more about partner support. This episode is brought to you in part by door Dash. 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Because I feel like so much of arranging what you're going to need is not just conversation with okay, what are you going to outsource? But maybe looking to see how the couple is functioning as a couple and maybe if there's certain home responsibilities that need to shift. I would think that with your kind of social worker expertise. I don't know if you've had experience in working with families like that, but I could see how that would be a really valuable angle to take. Yeah, So I use a tool that, I mean, as you were getting at, comes from the social work world. So I've something that I've used in a lot of different settings and with a lot of different people, and then ended up developing one specifically for postpartum support networks for use with clients, and I'm happy to link to it. It's totally free to anyone who wants to listening and wants to look at it or use it. But it's called an eco map, and it is a way to visually map out your support networks and then do some brainstorming and identifying of the the core things and the core people that can help you achieve those things. So if you kind of imagine this concentric circle of a small circle and then a slightly bigger one and a slightly bigger one, and there's essentially ways you plot different people and your different needs on there so that you can identify both what your needs and who is going to help fulfill those But also because you're visually mapping out, it can help you really clearly see where there's gaps in certain areas. And once you know where the gaps are, then it can kind of they become They no longer become gaps, right, they become this okay, opportunity for addressing this. So that's one of my favorite tools that I've used for a long long time. That sounds really cool. Are there certain scenarios which tend to pose a lot more challenges that you've seen, like multiple births or single parents or what are some of the I don't know, strategies that one can use when you're in those tougher situations. Yeah, So I think the the challenging situation that I see most office often is when the business owner is either the primary or the sole breadwinner and they're self funding their leave and that ends up causing a lot of stress both for the business and for the parent and for the people in their lives. And so that kind of a reverse engineering approach to finance and maternity leave funding is something that I talk through a lot pretty frequently with people, And I mean, my professional stance around it is that, you know, this is essentially a symptom of the fact that that entrepreneurs are left out of maternity leave policies, even in countries where there are federal policies, and so in the US, it's like it's like everyone kind of has a has a not very appetizing situation to go out on leave with, given that we have no federal policy, and business owners tend to be kind of out on their own with a lot of other people. Oh my gosh, yeah, I can see. Actually, I have a very close family member that's facing basically all of those challenges very soon. I may have her on the podcast afterwards if she is willing. But wow, I would think the most important things are setting up just as much human support as possible, family, friends, other things. But yeah, if you have any tips, I think that's a really kind of your right neglected population. It's really hard. Yeah, So I happy to share a little bit about my story. I had my son in Mexico, which is a country that does have a twelve week paid leave policy for certain sectors of the kind of employed population. Entrepreneurs are not one of them, so I self funded my leave. I'm a too freelance or too self employed household though, and so we really struggled to figure out what, like, how is cash flow going to work? Around that time, I essentially became my own client, and so I took myself through the same process that I used with clients in mapping out my own leave. And I knew I wanted to have about four months where I was really not seeing clients. And what I didn't really foresee was my husband having some major changes in his own business and therefore his income during that time. So I ended up starting to do a little bit of client work at like six weeks. I could not have foreseen that. I did not think. It was stuff like signing new contracts and getting a little influx of cash. It wasn't a ton of work. Only had like for maybe four hours of childcare a week, so it was by no means full time work. But I never would have imagined when I was doing my planning that I would be, you know, seat in chair at my computer anytime near six weeks. And the things that really helped me feel supported, and they were things that you know, I had seen really effectively work for other moms and business owners were things like meal trains and having family members that would provide help in the way that I found helpful help. I think one challenge is is everyone wants to help, but not everyone knows what actually feels helpful to you. So identifying those people who could actually help in a way that felt supportive. And then what I hadn't planned for is actually my time beyond like my individual postpartum journey. And so at one point my provider said, I think it's time for you to like go out and meet some other new moms, because I had really I had really focused on being in this little cocoon, and so that was a huge learning for me. And in joining a local new mom's group, found a lot of positive basically psycho emotional support. And I didn't have any you know, I had a low risk, healthy pregnancy and birth, I didn't have any postpartum complications, so health wise, it was like as easy as it gets. But it is still a trying time for everyone. And so I think that combination of having like material help, food, people around, a place to go when I needed to get out of the house, and this new Mom's group as well as providers who who really provided continuity of care, I had care. And again we're talking about maternal health in a different country, so maternity care in the US these as much to be desired as well. But I had postpartum visits. I had about five from day of birth through six weeks postpartum. Oh, that's so cool. Maybe nice that we had more of that postpartum home attention here, maybe someday. What about So you mentioned resources for maternal mental health issues, and it's so funny on this podcast, I've discussed that. So I never had postpartum depression. I guess I was lucky with that. I actually struggle much more with mood issues around cycling. So it's when I'm not pregnant and not breastfeeding that I find hormonal fluctuations at the most challenging. And that's been a lot better since I've figured out some solutions. But I know that a big part of your platform is, you know, really watching out and being proactive about perinatal and postnatal mood disorders. So what are some things people can do to kind of watch out for that, And what are your thoughts about even sort of the post postpartum phase, Because I feel like there's a lot of attention given to like those first you know, three months or maybe even the fifth trimester. But it doesn't necessarily get easy when your child is fifteen months old. I mean, in fact, sometimes like the post weaning can be even more difficult, or that the time when your baby all of a sudden has their own demands and they're not necessarily in line with what you'd want. So any thoughts on that, Yeah, I mean, I again sharing a little bit about the personal I really found what you're saying as I'm nodding as you're talking, because I really found that around sixteen eighteen months postpartum, So when my son was a good year and a half, that's when I really started feeling like I needed more support on the mental health front. And so there's a few resources that I always love to have handy. Part of the ECO map also talks through identifying what are the local resources from maternal mental health in your area. It is is a you need specialized training, so not all psychotherapists are trained to address paranaidal mental health, and so it's really worth seeing. You know, if I were to have this challenge, who would I go to in my community? Sometimes they're a little hard to find and sometimes they're hard to find within your insurance network, So just having an idea of a few providers in your area ahead of time, even if you don't end up needing them, it's worth ten minutes of googling to find where in your area. Similarly, there's kind of more group psychotherapy or support groups that address mental health. Again, even if you're not having clinical symptoms, it can be nice to be like, when I'm having a down day, who where could I go? Or who could I call? So one of those resources is actually Postpartum Support International. They have a fantastic helpline where essentially you can call, you are directed to greave a little voicemail, and a trained volunteer calls you back immediately with resources in your area. So they're able to direct you to support in your area and also do a little kind of crisis intervention if you need to talk to someone right then. So that's one resource that I love. And they are international, as is suggested in the name, so they really at this point have it's rare that they can't direct you to someone who can support you. Oh that's really cool. And I also love the idea of maybe putting some of the pieces in place before you need them, because it's when you need them that you're in the least a bit of a mental space to go out and find the people that might be have helped you. So that's great. We're going to take one more quick break as we have a new sponsor, Fiver, to introduce. 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It's so easy. Don't waste any more time and get the service you deserve by going to five er r dot com using code best of fiver. It starts here. Have your interests clinically shifted as your daughter has gotten older now that she's a three year old? Are you looking more into just maternal health in general, thinking about you know, families with multiple children and managing managing you know, the logistics of households. Have you shifted it all or is it still mostly just postpartum that's your passion? Yeah, So I do think that I'm still really interested in kind of the specifics around entrepreneurship and maternity leave and the transitions and maternity. You know, birth postpartum is one transition, but as you we're getting to there's there's these multiple transitions that come along. And so I think, as I've worked with women and also walked my own journey, I am really interested in kind of pregnancy through eighteen months postpartum and just knowing about how many simultaneous changes there are with with a parent within you know, feetu infant toddler with a business, and how much can change within the work context in kind of that two year cycle. I think that whole span of time is just this ripe area for further discussion. I also, as you might know, social workers have a pretty strong social justice leaning in our training, and so I do see myself as as working in this area where I do a lot of individual work, but really so much of the work that I do is influenced by this structural or this lack of supportive infrastructure around leave and around working parenthood, and around things like universal childcare and paid leave for folks. So I feel pretty strongly about any time that I talk about my work that it's you know, I do the work I do because there aren't systems that are set up to otherwise support women that I typically work with. So any chance that I get to talk about like policy, your advocacy, I always jump at it. That is fantastic. No, And these are all hopefully evolving issues, and well, I guess we'll see what happens if the political landscape shifts at all, will steer away because we're not a terribly political podcast, but I think we can all agree that it is we need to be giving new mothers this more support than they currently have right now, so hopefully that will be a big evolving issue as time passes. I would like to ask you one more question, which is that if you, you know, are a brand new, newly pregnant person and you if you had one, I don't know, big takeaway as to like what not to do with your planning your leave? What would it be? Or you could also add if you ever end up having a second maternity leave in the future, what would you do differently? Great question. I think this is this is a tough one you see, ah, or maybe just a very common mistake that you see people making. Yeah, I mean I think a pretty common mistake that I You know, the type of people that I work with tend to be people who start businesses type a goal oriented stickler for details, like just set a plan and stick to it. So the I guess the planning, the type of planning that I try and steer people away from, is like a I either fail or succeed at this maternity leave thing and really approaching it, as I said at the beginning, with the spirit of experimentation and seeing it as an opportunity to if something's not working, think okay, what needs to be tweaked, what needs to be changed? Are kind of the variables in this puzzle, and how can I move some of them around and see if the outcome is better? That makes sense, so not to have concrete black and white thinking and to stay very flexible. And for those who are seeing you to plan ahead, they're the ones probably most likely to kind of be overplanning, and so it totally makes sense that you'd want to steer people away from that and to be kind of themselves. It can be different than you expect. Yeah, I mean you've been through three at this point, so I'm sure you have. I'm sure your expert your like expectations and planning shifted slightly with each one. Definitely, definitely well. I mean I had it pretty easy because I do. I don't work for myself, so I get how there are positives and negatives. Like I see how like the gradual phase in in some ways is preferable to like, you know, black and white, Like one day you're home and then the next day you're like pumping four times a day and getting up at the crack of dawns. So I think there are positives and negatives on both sides, but hopefully we can end up with more support for all at some point. One last thing we always do on this podcast with all of our guests. I don't know how many episodes you've listened to, but we always have a love of the week. So I will give you mind so that you have time to think about yours, and I will say, hmmm, I love that I am happy to come back to work after some time off, because it means I must really love my job, because I was really excited to come back, and it may have been in part because I needed a break for my children, but it was also because I was excited to see everybody and to kind of dive back into things. And so I will just say that I love that I am lucky enough to have a job where I was excited to come back. Mine is similar. This is my first child free hour since, like Deevenber twentieth, and so I am feeling very grateful for childcare and caregivers and people who take care of children for a living, and am looking forward to day care being back in session shortly. I love the honesty I totally knew where you're coming from and by the way, listeners, we did record this a couple of weeks ago, so she hasn't been with a child for a month. That would be that would be well, not terrible. That would have been a challenge, but it was still challenging anyway, So thank you for sharing that. But Ariana, it has been a pleasure. I'm sorry Laura didn't get to join us, but I'm sure she will be excited to listen to you once this is on the air. And I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom about everything postpartum and maternal health and maternity leave and beyond. Thanks for having me. Sarah, Well, that was a great interview. It was wonderful having her, and just remember you can hear more about her services or read more about her at her website Ariana tabawada dot com. So instead of a traditional Q and A, I decided that I would record just one of our emails that we got. Every once in a while we'll get a lovely testimonial from a listener, and it is so much fun to hear, especially when someone has taken things that we've said and it's really made a difference in their lives. Laura and I instantly forward these kinds of emails to each other, and so in order to thank you, and also because I didn't really want to answer a Q and A without anyone to keep me in check, I decided I would read this. So here we go. Hi, Sarah. I have been listening to best of both worlds religiously for the past year, and then I started following your blog. You have inspired me to go to sleep earlier, to wake up earlier, and to start running again. After having some surgery shortly after my son was born almost four years ago and losing a lot of feeling in my leg, I took a few years hiatus from running, which I used to love. Well. Because of you, I'm back to running and absolutely loving it. I inspired my husband to work out again too, and we even created Google calendar events around our workout schedules. So thank you so much on many levels. She also mentioned that she was sorry that I was in a funk because this was sent around the time that I was having some mood issues and hoped I felt better soon. She writes, we all get down sometimes, and often for periods that are longer than we'd like. It definitely sounds like you're on a positive journey. Now sometimes I feel like being on a journey towards recovery is actually one way to recover, though it takes time, and I love that. I really really appreciate getting those kinds of emails, so thank you. We also love it when people leave us reviews and also suggestions for guests. It's a new year and Laura and I are full of ideas of things we'd like to do with this podcast, and one thing is to continue to bring on more guests, guests with more diversity, guests from different backgrounds, guests doing different things and with different ideas, so please send us your suggestions. So thank you so much for listening, and we will be back next week, probably both of us, with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.