We Are the Best with Margaret Killjoy

00:00:00
Speaker 1: On the dol cast. The questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef In best start changing it with the beck del cat Jamie Caitlyn I I wanna hold the microphone and hosts the podcast. I I want to do the recap. What do you mean they're on day one. We said I was going to do the recap, and then you were going to not do the recap, and you said you were fine with that. Well I was lying, Okay, well it's too late. You can't. You can't. You can't date my brother. You can't. But he's so cute. What about my maybe? What about my dad? He plays the clarinet. I love the clarinet. Clear dad no longer passing the BECTL test. But Clarina Dad, Clara Dad had we Oh god, I love Clarina Dad. He just I'm like, don't even know if he was a good parent, but I loved clarinet. Hard to stay laugh at them. When the other girl's mom was like, I'm going to call the police, um, He's like, you can call the police about a bad haircut. Anyways of often the clarinet. Oh anyway, Welcome to the Becktel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus, And this is our our little podcast where we have guests bring a movie that they love and then we look at it from an intersectional feminist lens, and we use the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. Sure, and of course that is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and there are many versions of the test. The one that we use is this, two characters of a marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man. And for our purposes, we like it to be a substantial conversation, one that is many lines of dialogue and uh and like narratively meaningful arguments about God at the dinner table, if you will. Uh, but isn't God a man? And therefore Wow, Okay, I mean I don't think Yeah, part I was. I was like, I mean, we could really get in the weeds on on that. Um, that's true. Yeah, Look, I don't. Let's not get it. But you know, but I'm like, you know, we don't have to talk about I don't assign gender to God. Who God is to us? Right? And you know there's anyways okay, uh they we and and also the Bechdel Test is just a jumping off point for discussion in perfect metric, it's been it's been a wild summer for the Bechtel Test. They have just been the discourse. It's been wild. And um, you know, leave us alone is what I would say. We're just here to talk about movies and have some fun. And we have a hell of a movie to discuss today and a hell of a guest. Our guest is the host of Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, the podcast from Cool Zone Media, and she's an author and musician and she's Margaret Killjoy. Hello, Hello, how are you. I'm good? Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited. Oh my gosh, thanks for being here. Look, we know that podcasts are an audio medium, but I do want listeners to know that Margaret has dressed for the occasion of the movie that we're talking about today, which is We Are the Best A k oh god v You're going to try to say this and v our boss. Look, huh I did, uh I I did a little bit of Do you remember when I was doing I was trying for two whole months. Yeah, I didn't get far. But we're covering a Swedish movie today called vr bost We are the Best. I'm very excited to talk about it. And Margaret, what is your relationship with this movie? So I did first see this movie, not not all that long ago, maybe five years ago or something or so I basically went through this period where I was like I'm going to watch all the girl punk movies and then kind of expanded out to like I'm going to watch all the punk movies, but and this is the one that I remember. UM. You know, I have I have many thoughts about the representation of punk in in media, but but we are the best, Like UM lives up to its name in terms of representation of punk as far as I'm concerned, especially like punk girlhood. So hell yeah, I'm very other opinion, I'm curious about your opinions and other what are the other Not to put you on the spot, but what are other good punk movies? So I actually think that the other best representation of punk in fiction is Green Room, which is a hard yeah yeah, okay. I think the fact that the punks in it don't dress like punks. I'm making air quotes here and end up like at some like Nazi venue and then play, um, I don't remember if you cuss on this show or not, and then play Nazi Punks funk off to a crowdfull of Nazis. Right. I feel like it's one of the punkest moments in cinema, and and very much I get the sense of, like, Okay, the people who made this, like, you know what the hell they're talking about. Um, I can't like wildly recommend it, right because this horror movie and um. But and then also the fact that in Green Room they all secretly also really like nonpunk music and like only one of them like actually has like their favorite band of all time is punk, and all the rest of them I'm not punk at all, And I think that is so accurate in rules. Um, and then the other the darkest if you want to, if you want to hear all of my negative thoughts about punk, I think the movie Suburbia is really accurate, the one that has Flea from Red Hot Chili peppers and non actors. I was fully thinking of Disturbia and that's on me, like the Chila buff movie. Right, there's this movie, I think it's from the eighties. It's called Suburbia and it's about these squater punks in California and they're all racist and misogynists and from broken homes. And it's very accurate in a very disturbing way. Um in a lot of ways. And it's a lot of like non actors in it, so you get this like weird sense of realism from watching these non actors who kind of look like they're just being themselves in slightly awkwardly. Um. So, if I were to pick accurate representations of punk, uh we are the best would be the one that I would be like, look punk rules and Herbia would be the like. Also, it's really dark and bad. Sometimes I didn't prepare this list. There's probably others that people are going to get mad at me for Caitl what's your history with this movie? Um? I saw it m probably also around five years ago, and I don't remember exactly what brought me to it, maybe aside from I think someone just recommending it to me and saying that it was really good and that I'd probably like it, and they were right. I think this movie rules, and I think it is because I can't speak to punk at all. I'm extremely on punk, at least as far as punk music goes. I would say I'm punk in other ways, which is the maybe least punk thing to say. I don't know, but I think it is one of the most authentic and accurate depictions of just being a thirteen year old girl that I've ever seen. Um and like the things that you talk about with your friends, the things that you care about, the little just like the little things you do and say. And I'm just like, yeah, all that stuff. When the moment where Clara and whatever the punk boy are on the roof, Bobo's like yeah, and and Bobo is like, I'm going to jump off the roof just kidding. I was like, oh that. It's like such an uncomfortable moment of feeling like, oh, no, I've been that person. It's like, ha ha, hey, guys, I'm gonna jump off the roof. Is this cool? And They're like, don't stop, stop embarrassing h So I just loved the depiction of of girlhood in the movie. Jamie, what is your history and relationship with it? Very short? I had not seen this movie before. It's been recommended to me before, as I have like a lot of Lucas Moody sn um joints, but this was the first one that I've seen, and I had such a great time with it. This is like it's so cool watching kids like Bobo and Clara because like I was, my dad is a huge punk fan, and like I grew up with punk, but I never had the self confidence to like do it myself. Like I was like a kind of a closet punk fan where I really liked it, but I was like aesthetically I I just I could never I can't pull a off, and I like used to you know, I've talked about this on the show before, but like in at like this age, I was like so taken by like punk kids, hot topic, goth kids and like juggalos, and I just like I love them all I was. I went and but I like wore a back brace. When I was thirteen, I was like, there, they'll never accept me, even though they were so nice, like tended to be really really nice groups of kids. Um. But yeah, I've been a sideline lover of um of the punk esthetic and I loved going to like man the Boston punk scene in the early two thousand tens. If you're there, you're there, and it was beautiful. Um So this was so cool. I wish that I had uh more punk childhood. Um So seeing this was very awesome and also, like like you were saying, like just the like being a thirteen year old in general is like represented in such a cringe e good way here where I really admire writers that can like still access that part of them. I feel like I really buried it because when you see it, you're like, oh, yes, this is too familiar, and I hate that I used to be this awful way. Yeah it's like right, um but yeah no, I uh because this was um This is directed by Lucas Moodyson, adapted from a graphic novel by Coco his wife. His wife, um Coco moods in Yes so um So. Shout out to Coco, who uh was really able to tap into a lot of the very uncomfortable, cringe e ways that thirteen year olds behaved, but in a way that I find myself when I write young characters, if I want them to seem good. I like, I want to uh sand off the rough hedges, and I'm like, I shouldn't. I really shouldn't. It's like so endearing when oh, man, there's just so many bobo moments where you're just like, buddy, buddy, yeah, and should oh you just how hard? Um? Uh not bobo not head veg. What's the third punk Clara? Clara? How hard? Clara is trying to be so hard and so punk and she just has this loving, supportive family who just like wants what's best for her and her like her post punk brother who's a sellout because he's post punk and like, and she's just like I I don't see myself in her. I would have wanted to be best friends with me. And I get the isling that the writer also kind of probably is most self insert bobo. I was definitely more of a bobo myself. I was. I was a bobo, And I also had some notes of head vig where I was like, no, swearing, drinking is bad for you. Stop um Clara. Man, we all want to be Clara, but but then also, but you know, you know, not everyone can have a clarinet. Dad. It's a game changer. Also, it turns out that Coco Moody sen what is the word I'm thinking of, like lemony snake it? Oh, a pseudonym A pseudonym? Yes, wow, okay, sorry for just throwing lemony ticket. So but her first name, her first name is head Vig. So, so I don't know, maybe maybe a head vegus her insert. I don't know when I know that the the director is Christian Oh, I did not know that. Interesting me either, I would not have guessed that necessarily. It wasn't in a very like, very positive way. You know. I get really excited when I I'm not really personally attached to any particular religious affiliation, but I get really excited when people use religion as a reason to be like good, you know. And So I actually didn't know it the first time I watched it, but I did more research before I watched it this time, and I was like kind of looking for that, and I was like, oh, I I totally see that. Mm hmm, that makes sense. I mean it's like the religion. I feel like the way that religions treated in the movie is very like even keeled and like what you see present of head VIGs religion seems to be like generally positive, where like she just shows a lot of empathy and like, doesn't you know, I guess doesn't drink a whole bottle of wine when she's thirteen. You're like, these seems like generally good things. I guess, um, but I also love hearing Clara be Like, I don't believe in God. I believe in catchup. So a lot of points are made, a lot of good points. I want to say that you're you're you're worried about not being cool ugh for the punk aesthetic, um, just to out myself as opposer. I got my first punk vest in my thirties because I don't think I was punk enough, even though I was like a squatter who spent all of her time at punctious. I was like, because I wasn't a teenage punk, I was a teenage magoth essentially very cool. Yeah, and so so my mother Actually I asked for one for Christmas, and my mother got me a vest and then I put a patch on it. Um, so it's never too late. Yeah, that is that is very motivating because it does feel like and then I'm like, maybe this is a construction of my mind. It does feel like teenagers really get keep the punk aesthetic, but it's never I think we should we should pivot to being punks. I would be very into that. I really would. I was, And also the punk outfit that this movie. They're all so good. They're all especially when the boys are trying a little too hard and the girls have it just right and it's just it's great, it's great. Who is at And they're like gate keeping, They're like, yeah, of you. Yeah they call them a proger, which I don't know what that man and I forgot to look it up, but I rock, but I'm not sure. Yeah, oh I thought. I just was like they're in Europe, they're talking about the city. I don't understand, but but yeah, I looked it up and they're like, um, hey, goofs. They actually mean prog rock. You're like, oh yeah, eight two that makes sense. I love when they bring up Joy Division as a pejure have, Like there's just so many good so many good moments. It's very fun. Should I recap the story? No? I would know, Wait, okay, wait, what worth it? Because my favorite movie growing up with School of Rock, Like, like, I just loved it so much and this movie. I love that both of these movies exist because this is like an accurate depiction of what a children's band would be, which is very bad. They are not very good their instruments. The song absolutely sucks. I felt, mean, I had like an inner like I don't know if this is like my inner aunt or whatever, but I'm like, Headwicks should go solo. I don't know what she's doing hanging out with these dorks, like and then I'm like, wait, no, no, no, they need each other. But I'm like, it makes such a talent they do. They need the energy, you know they yeah, and and they give head Vig her edge, and head Vig brings the christ the talent, mediation and being able to play the guitar. So everyone's got you all. We all bring something to the tables. Honest, Bobo, you gotta love Bobo. But Bobo brings heart, which is like a really nice way of calling someone a flop. And they're like, no, no, no, she's she's the heart. Gotta have her. I hope it does improve at the drums later on. It's true and in her descent, she never wanted to play the drums and still doesn't seem to want to at the end. Oh okay, so here is the recap again, so not punk of Me. To recap the movie, here we go great joy division of you Kalin. Alright, So we are in Stockholm, Sweden. Ever heard of it? In the year two, we meet Bobo. She is a thirteen year old girl who is bored at her mom's birthday party, so she goes into her room and she calls her best friend Clara. They both love punk music. They've both got these punk rock haircuts, and they are trying which of them is the most oppressed by their parents, right, who both come from supportive families, but they are very typical teenagers in the way that they have, you know, difficult relationships with their parents and their families. And we see them not really fitting in with the other girls at school who tell them that punk is dead, and they're like, no, it's not those i They're also just like, I don't know the specificity of how they wrote this movie, where like Clara wants to be political in the way that like punks are political, but she like doesn't quite know what she's talking about, but like no one around her has enough information to say she's wrong, And I was like, oh, this is a very thirteen year old experience where she's like nuclear and and you're just like yeah, and your skin is gonna fall off. It's the same as God, yes, right, um okay. So Bobo and Clara go to a youth center where they hear this band called Iron Fists, which are like older maybe like late teens, early twenties perhaps um boys who are playing, and Bobo and Clara want to play music too, so they tell these, uh the one of the adults at the youth center that they have a band, and they sign up for a spot to play, and they bury these adults just like those two guys. I don't know what their character's names are, but they are such goofy like dudes in their forties who like probably wanted to be musicians but it didn't work out for them and was a genuine rivalry with thirteen year olds and multiple times it's so fun to watch. So Bobo and Clara start messing around on the only instruments that they have at this youth center, which is a drum set and a bass guitar, and neither of them know how to play these instruments, so there they sound terrible, but they have a ton of fun and they start talking and they talk about like starting a band for real. They both want to play bass, but Clara is like, no, Bobo, you are really good at the drums. You should play the drums. And she's like, okay, I guess. So then back at so then back at school, the girls are in gym class, which they hate, and the gym teacher gives them a hard time, so they start writing lyrics to a song called hate the Sport, and it's still go to continually draw comparisons between We're the best in School of Rock, but it really reminds me of the first song they write in School of Rock, where the legend of the rent was way hardcore, right. I almost forgot about that. Um. So they are writing lyrics to hot the Sport and they try to get a bought on their school's upcoming like fall concert slash talent show thing, but there are no open spots so they can't play. But they go to the show and UH make fun of most of the acts, which was fun to watch except for one girl, head Vig, who plays a song on the acoustic guitar and she plays it pretty well. Bobo is the most punk of them all. When they when they're like, why is she keep doing this? They're always booing her and then she like shreds on the Christian guitar and I love head Vig mhm um. So seeing her play well, Bobo gets the idea to have head Vig join their band. The only trouble is that she is a Christian who doesn't play punk music. And Bobo and Clara tell head Vig that they like her music and they asked her to be in the band. Um, and hed Vig is like, well, I also hate sports, so sure, so she joins the band. She teaches them a couple of things, and then they start to hang out and become friends. There's a scene where they find some yarn that was thrown away in these big garbage bags, so they're like, pick it up and they start playing with it and cutting it up, and then Bobo cuts her hand. Um they're there, Oh no, I was just thinking about, like, I've only been to Sweden once, but it is interesting when you spend time in a country that has health insurance, the way people navigate the world is just a little bit different. They're like, yeah, you know, if I get hurt, I'll just go to the doctor. Like they're just like I don't know, like watching how they were just like, yeah, let's bring some trash home wind, not let's use a knife like I just I remember once um staying with a friend of mine in a squat in France and she caught her I can't remember what something was wrong with her hand, like something fairly bad, and we're like, oh no, how are we going to handle this. We're like like googling things like I'm gonna I'm gonna reach out to my ex boyfriend who's kind of a doctor. Now. She's like, I can just go to the doctor tomorrow, And what do you mean? Water punk? Like, how are you going to just go to the anyway? Yep, ye, punks can go to the doctor here. It's so wild. There one that I went to, like, well, I went to Stockholm. We went to like this Swedish theme park and I'm like there's no rules here, you can just fall down and like it was just like it was so fun. But you're just like, wow, I didn't realize how American healthcare brain. I was like, we need we needed better safety procedures. These children are just taking like hard falls right and left, but just taking to the doctor. Are all fine? Well, the only thing though is that Bobo cuts her hand pretty severely. But then they don't go to the doctor. That's true, it's months for a long time. Yeah, I mean, I'm excited to talk about Bobo's relationship with her mom because I was like, I there's a lot of ambiguity going on there with her and her mom. I'm it's interested to talk about it. But I was just like, oh, no, Bobo Boo should have gone to the doctor. But they're very punk, so they're too punk for that too. For the pediatrician. That should have been one of their songs. Oh my gosh. Um, then we'll speaking of Bobo's parents. Bobo's dad comes to visit. Um, it's clear that she and him are not close, and she wants to hang out with Clara instead when they're supposed to be having like a nice family dinner with her death with Bobo's dad and mom. But she's like, I want to go hang out with my friends. Screw dessert. Another great screw dessert. Another could have been song. Um. So then Bobo goes to Clara's place where Clara's brother Linus is having a party. Um, Bobo and Clara get drunk and they pressure head head Vig into drinking also, but she doesn't want to and she leaves. Meanwhile, Bobo has a crush onlineus and she expresses concern that she'll never find a boyfriend and nobody thinks she's cute. Um. Another there's like all these specific thirteen year old moments, but like when like an older sibling that you have a crush on, like when he like touches her hair and you're like, oh my god, I love how friendly all of his all of his friends were like concerned about the thirteen year olds. They weren't like trying to hang out with the thirteen year olds. But they're all like, oh are they okay? Like what's up? They were all they weren't like, ah, I can't believe your sisters here, you know, they're just like here. I like when they're like are you drunk? Are you okay? They're just everyone's so wholesome, Clara's whole eating, Clara's whole family. I'm like, what a sweet, sweet family. They really they really raised some some weird punk kids, even like the youngest sibling, I forget what his name is is like cow or cow or something. I just off man younger sibling. I mean, you could read a whole thesis on younger siblings in cinema, because usually they're just like annoying and suck and are like always planning, you know, elaborate schemes. But I like that he's just like a doorway brother and he's always just kind of like hey, and then he just leaves. Like that's a more realistic younger sibling depict just someone cackling while you're getting in trouble from the doorway working in cash. Then Bobo and Clara go over to hed Vig's house and they have a They have a discussion about whether or not any whether or not they believe in God. Um, they kind of peer pressure head Vig into cutting her long hair, which Hedvig's mom is very unhappy about when she finds out, and she tells them that she's going to report Bobo and Clara to the police unless they start going to church with her and believing in God and becoming Christians work. And at first you're like, oh my god, she's serious, and then Bobo and Clara like, you can't do that. You can't force us to go to church, and her mom was like, well you can't, Well you forced my daughter to get a hair cut, and we think that what's going on? And then so the next day at school, had Vig doesn't sit with them at lunch, but it's because she thinks Bobo and Clara are mad at her because of what her mom did. And she's like, like, I was just so embarrassed with my mom. And but you're also like, she probably also didn't want to cut her hair, right, But did you ever have like a parent moment where I feel like I rarely like went through with it, but like when your parents like, just blame it on me, I don't care, Like my mom like would be like, I don't care if I look silly to your friends, just don't do a bad Like I would have totally blamed that all on my mom, even if I secretly, like I did feel pure pressured into getting the haircut. Mm hmm yeah um, and and not good good for moms for doing that. You know, you know, moms don't need other thirteen year old girls. They think they're cool, and I celebrate that so true. The three girls makeup and they have a little food fight at lunch, they have more brand they and then they have more band practice and they start to write another song. They ask strangers for money so that they can buy an electric guitar, which they don't make enough money for, so they instead spend the money they did make on a bunch of junk food that they pig out on. Can I tell a story about women asking for money in Sweden? That's a really random story, Yes? Please? I was. I was hitchhiking through Sweden in my early twenties and I have any money, and I was like in Helsingborg and I was trying to get to Stockholm, sitting in a park, and these these group of young women are like hey, hey, hey, and I'm like, I don't speak Swedish and they're like will you And I'm not out as trans at this point. Um, I actually don't remember if I'm wearing a dress or not, but but I'm like presenting as a boy, even if I'm wearing women's and they're like, will you wrestle us for money? You give us money and we wrestle you and that's how we're raising enough money for her wedding and their their wedding was that they were wrestling random boys in the park. I explained that I did not have any money, and they promptly moved on. But that that I can't to wrap my head around all. I have no idea what happened there? Is this a normal thing? Were they hitting on me? Was it just a weird checking thing? I don't know. I have no idea. What is that? Just a very common Swedish thing? We don't know? Do yeah? Do swees just have very inventive ways of making money? That seems possible. How far they got in this venture, It makes it sound like the way you describe it makes it seems like they felt there was some sort of demand for this, you know. I yeah, it seems like they're going to pay for a wedding with this. Yeah, tens of thousands of dollars that a wedding costs. They were going to somehow raise that by challenging people to wrestle them, especially, I don't know. The whole thing made no sense to me. That's fascinating, Okay. I hope that they had the best wedding ever. So the girls, they eat a bunch of junk food. They're also gushing over this article by this punk band of teen boys. So they call these boys and arranged to meet up there, like your punks were punks, We have to meet up. It's fate, and they're so exactly. So they meet up. They think it's going to be three boys in this band, but it's only two of them because they've already divvied up the boys. That's yeah, they're like, you're going to get with this one. And one of the boys was a poser is the biggest problem, right, because he liked a band noise, so they kicked him out. So it's just the two boys and the three girls and they go to their and they go to the boys rehearsal space. They hang out and I like the the um it was. It was. It was fun um so, but because they're out kind of like outnumbered, Bobo is left out and she's sort of like the fifth wheel, and she's jealous because she clearly liked the boy Ellis well, and that was claims the agreement, right Clara. Clara's like, Ellis will be yours and David will be mine, but David's the guy who's not there, So Clara kind of claims Ellis for herself, and now Bobo is the awkward fifth wheel. Well, and the boys called called it to the boys of their conversation where they divvy up the girls which they don't remember the names of, and they're just like, oh, yeah, the one with the scarf, like, I'll tell her, sucking thirteen year old boys. I do think that is how boys. They're like, Oh, at least they did it by like scarfs and not like hair color, because I feel like so many men are just like so reductive about women. They're like, oh the blonde, the burnette. Um, okay, so they're in Sweden. You can't do that. It's never mind everyone's blonde. This is not true at all. But I apologized, sweet listen, Yeah, but a lot of you are blonde to be fair shots fired the youth center that the girls go. Tom says that they've been invited to bring a few bands to play at another youth center's winter concert, and they want Bobo and Clara and head VIGs band who I don't do we ever learn the name of their band. I don't explain the same thing, Okay, I was like, did I miss something? Um, they didn't get that. Yeah, so they're so punk that they don't even need a name. So their band is invited to play, and those two guys at the youth center, Um, they bought an electric guitar. Finally, and we see head Vig showing off her guitar playing skills and everyone is very impressive. Waita, the the thing about being an all girl band. This is one of my favorite moments of the whole movie. So I want to interject because it's like, I mean, I guess the only thing worse than being a girl band is to be a female fronted band. You know. Um in terms of just like the annoying thing, I just as someone who's in a girl band, Um, I'm really excited that they just were like immediately their thirteen and they're like, no, no, we're not we are girls who were in the band. Anyway, it's like my favorite feminist moment of the movie. It does kind of remind me a little bit of just because it's still it's like so ridiculous that whatever this movie takes place in eighty two and this ship still happens all the time, and it's just so annoying or just it's the same as like women in comedy questions And I was just gonna say, yeah, like, yeah, not great. Could stop, like and this is a part of why it's not great, Like yeah, oh my gosh, I can't tell you how many times I've been asked like is it hard to be a female comedian? And I'm just like, right now, it's hard to be a comedian. It's hard to be a woman. So yeah, like what do you want me to say? Like, yeah, shut up? What the I mean? What the fund do? Like sis, white straight men have to make jokes about because isn't one of the main I'm not a comedian, but it seems like bad things happening based on people making assumptions about you is one of the main sources of comedy, Like yeah, a big one. Well now with the well is deeper for everyone else. Now it's truly can't You can't say or do anything anymore. That's the news. I forgot that. Here's the thing. PC culture is ruining comedy. So yeah, they can't really talk. I don't even know how to like start a conversation anymore, Like how do you even start? Can talk to answers? No, if you're thinking about it, if you're not sure the answers, no, I can't even I can't even just hang out someone's d M s un answered, send them a new message every day without people getting upset. You really just can't harass people like you used to, you know. So they get invited to this winter concert. Um, but Bobo is still sour about the um Clara and Ellis thing, and Clara's like, well, Alis never calls me. Cut to Bobo calling Ellis and arranging to hang out with them, just the two of with him, just the two of them. I was floored. I was florida that this happened. I truly gasped. I didn't know. I didn't know she had that rage. I did know because I feel like I did something like that as a t God, you're so much braver than I am. I would have I would have just fumed in silence for twenty years and then brought it up on this podcast at some point. So do you want to shout someone out right now? From by the way there, Wait, Kitlen, you did something like this, that's so? What did you do? So? Okay? I had so my best friend in my school. We both so there was a group of three, a trio of boys who were a year or two older than us, and they were best friends, and me and my best friend were a little duo and we all like basically just all dated each other. But like, but at first it was like, well I like this one, so he's off limits to you. And then and then eventually we just like worked both worked our way through all three of them. But to start, it was like, well, no, I've I have staked claim on this one. But then like I kind of moved on to the guy that she briefly liked and dated and then but he was off limits to me. But I was like, you know what, he likes me, So what am I going to deny myself happiness? And it was you know, it wasn't great. I don't I'm not proud of myself, but look it happened, and I think the only thing I've done that's approached I didn't do that in like when middle school. In high school, I started dating someone who was off limits and someone threw a watermelon on my lawn. No water full watermelon, a watermelon, they said water bong. I just I think they just like went to Shaws and bought a watermelon. It just chucked it on my lawn to let them know that they knew that I was I was dating someone off limits mm hmm. But it sent the message, I don't know, pretty punk thing to do, throw a watermelon. It was pretty cool of them to do. I didn't. I didn't, you know, I didn't stop dating the person after that, which that's on me because it is It's like one thing to be like, I'm doing something that's wrong, but then in the back of your head you're like, but I haven't experienced a consequence, so maybe it's not wrong. And then the watermelon lands, and then you're like, no, this is wrong. What what an interesting worries we're all sharing? Oh yeah, we're really all letting it rip. I've never done anything wrong, so well obviously yeah yeah, um okay, you are the head vig of the group. Wow, um okay. So uh So Bobo and Ellis hang out and it's a little flirty. He puts his arm around her, he tickles her wrist um and and he's like, but I have to break up with Clara first, which he never does. And then they're heading to the New Year's they're kind of not invited to anymore. He goes them both and then Bobo tells Clara that Ellis cheated on Clara with Bobo, and they get in a huge fight and Clara is furious, but at the encouragement of head Vig, they eventually make up and become friends again. And then it's time for the concert, so they go to this seems like kind of like a remote, far away town and it's like like a distant y m C a kind of vibe. Yeah, And then so they start playing their song Hot the Sport, and everyone screams at them and calls them ugly and says that they're common communists and they're like, you suck, and the girls in the band are like, we don't suck. You suck, and we are the best and that is the name of the movie. And then the movie ends with um, like the girls talking to those two youth center guys and they're like, you need to show some respects, like, um, screw you. And then there's a scene like a fast food place where they're like goofing around and that's the end of the movie. You forgot about the dad playing clarinet pants around his ankles. Clarinet, feminist icon, clarinet. We should all be so truly. Um. Okay, so let's take a quick break and then we will come back to discuss and we're back, and we're back. Where do we want to start? I mean, there's a few different kind of thematic cornerstones I suppose of the movie that I really enjoy. Okay, what do I have writing stone? I would never bring it up, but um, I mean, I love the female friendship as it is at the center of this movie. I love the like kind of beauty standards and the rejecting of beauty standards is a large component of this movie. I like that, um kind of like the men around them often assume that they can't really do anything or that they're not good at things because they're girls. That's a component of this movie. Again. I love just the what feels like a very authentic depiction of the horrors of being thirteen and just all the nuances you get that you normally don't see in a movie about thirteen year old girls, one because there are hardly any movies about thirteen year old girls, and two if they are, if there is a story about them, it's it just feels like a very like cartoony Hollywood eyes version, which can be fun, but it's like there's just not enough of projects like this around right year old actors. Yeah, exactly, actual kids, Yeah, because I feel like thirteen year olds you just add three or four years in like, which is like part of why eighth grade, I feel like was such was so cool for a lot of people to see because you're like, oh, yeah, this is what an eighth grader looks like. Where and again not so, I feel like I've been bringing up to Grassy on every single episode recently. I don't know why, but like that was my only yardstick as a kid for like media for kids that were played by kids that were at the correct age and weren't like c W teens who are like my age. Yeah, there's there's a lot to love about it, and not really anything that I have any complaints about. One thing I really liked because we recently covered Margaret. Have you seen Turning Red? I haven't know. It's cute, it's a new Dizzey movie. It's also like a girlhood coming of age movie. And one thing that like I've I liked that these movies, I mean, the movies have very not a lot in common to a rights is about turning into a Panda. But but I did like, um, the way that like the girls are like are like going through period. They're like starting to feel like come into their own in terms of their sexuality, but they also like I like that the movie doesn't ignore that, but it also doesn't do what I think a lot of teen media does, which is like push them into situations that they're not ready for or able to handle, which is such a tough line to tell. I feel like you see a lot of that in Bobo, where she like has a crush on an older boy, but like isn't going to do anything about it, Like she's just going to be weird whenever he's around. And when the thirteen, when you know she hangs out with um, I keep wanting to call him Elon, which is all us. When she hangs out with Ellis, both of them have no idea what to do, but he still manages to be an asshole, which is a hallmark of thirteen year old boys. But he like, I just liked it. I don't want to defend him super high, right because he goes both of them or whatever, But it's like there were so many ways that if this was a Hollywood movie, he would have been way the hell worse, right, and yeah, he was. He like, I think most ghosting is people being like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here, so I'm going to not think about it, right, and so so he's like, I don't know, I don't know how to date. I don't know what I'm doing, so I will be distant in a way that hurts people. But you know, like I'm worried I'm cheating because I like touched your hand, you know, I know the thirteen year old definition of cheating and also of being together is like like, oh we hung out one time, we're dating, we're together. You know. Normally we examine a movie that as like a hetero romance and we're often like why is this here, or like it'll feel very wedged in, or we're just there's a lot to especially right, But in this movie, it just it feels very true. But in this movie it just feels very organic, organic and like it belongs because we are seeing these girls and their friendship and like the whole spectrum of what it is to be, uh, someone of that age, which is yes, having interests in something, and for them it's music, um, whether it's like to listen to it and then eventually to start playing it. Um it's uh issues or just whatever complications anything like that with your family. And we see that in um, all of the girls, and it's an interest in uh whatever we're like in other people romantically. Um, And we see that. So it's just like and it's like you know, going to school, it's going to your youth center. It's like all the things that kids do. And we just see that entire scope of their lives versus a lot of stories will be like, oh, well they're a team girl, so the only thing they think about is boys. Um, But it's like, no, we get the whole spectrum of their lives here. There's just as much time spent on them trying to figure out how they feel about religion as there is that like on yeah, figuring out how they feel about like different romantic interests, which is cool. Yeah. It's like, I I like how this movie is very like Vignetti and there like here's a here's a kid thing, remember this, and it's like slowly leading up to something. It's probably how like because it you know, is based on this sort of autobiographical graphic novel and you know, I assume the yarn incident right, Like the yarn incident doesn't narratively tie in. I mean they managed to pull it off because at the end they're like fishing with the yarn out the window for fun and like and you know, getting cut while cutting up random yarn you pull out of the trash scene is like very emotional and impactful, but it's such a a random moment that I assume that this has happened, you know, right right, and like too specific to not be real. And they still managed to get like that awesome moment out of um out of it too, where like that's there, like huge, that's like, isn't that That's like the first moment where you're like, oh, Headvig is like permanently in the group, part of the group, even though she was the one who didn't want to go dumpster diving or whatever, you know, and was afraid of stealing someone's thrown out. Yeah, she's like this is someone else's and it's wet, why are we playing with it? Like, Okay, head Vig had some points. She made some point, some better boundaries. I feel like a lot of movies would go down a route of like, oh, well, a new friend gets introduced so one of the others gets really jealous or like, this new friend comes along and she feels like the odd one out because there's already an established friendship with these other two, which is a real thing that does happen. Um, But I like that it's just these three girls who share a common interest in music and they bond over that and their hatred of gym class and sports. So they're like, well, yeah, obviously we're all going to be the best of friends. And even though one of them is a little older than the other two, even though one of them is Christian and the other two are not. Maybe that's why I also feel very connected to head VG taller friend energy where they're like, is she older? You're like, no, they're all the same age. Relax, No, she is older. I think because she says she's in Great nine, I thought she's good. I think all these characters are great um and again, and they're very they're very distinct. They're very again like I knew people like all like all like I knew people like all three of them, and I saw myself and you know, you know, in different ways in all three of them, and they're just like very again, well written well crafted, very relatable, very authentic characters that again, we don't see in media very often. I like, I loved it Clara because Clara is like the headstrong, like decisive, like like in your face, like I'm gonna advocate when someone needs to be advocated for, right to the point where it's like occasionally and considerate people around her. And I just I like, I kaind Of'm just like, oh, I can't think of the last time I saw like a movie. I don't know. I mean, I guess I don't really know what this who this movie was marketed towards because we famously don't live in Sweden, but I hope that it was like marketed at like kids, because it would have been so. I mean, it's really cool seeing like kids that aren't like classic you know, like Hollywood cool girls that there's like a movie about them being awesome and like still bullied but ultimately like really really fucking cool. Um. But but Clara. I liked the with Clara and Bobo. They like it ends with them all being friends. But you can also tell in a way that I found kind of satisfying, like Clara still has a long way to go, you know, Clara Clara, like literally in the in the last scene, it was just like so a thirteen year old, like, yeah, she still hasn't quite gotten over herself where she's like I am the best, and then the other two have to be like that's not the name of the movie. Yeah, I I totally agree, but not in a way that like makes that character unlikable or irredeemable. It's just that she's a thirteen year old girl, and this is how a lot of thirteen year old girls are, or just thirteen year olds in general, because you're thirteen and you have not fully formed as a person yet, your emotions are confusing, you are your self esteem is all over the place, and yeah, it just feels like, yeah, she's quite self centered, and yes she is sort of like staking claim over a lot of things and like you know, not being as super considerate toward especially her best friend Bobo in a lot of ways where she's like, no, this boy's mine, the playing the bass is my thing, and way that again, like this is an immaturity thing that she will probably grow out of, not like she's a bad person thing it is. Yeah, it feels like I don't know, I mean like every thirteen year old has like that that friend structure where it's like there's a friend that just can steamroll everybody, and you're like, you don't have the confidence or the life skills to be like stop Like uh, I like and and and you know, having an alpha friend like Clara because it's not I mean, she's still like loves her friends and family, she just doesn't always consider them first. And you know there are moments that I mean it's like you still really like Clara. She's like the most She's trying to be the most overtly political of the group. She like wants to be able to say something even though she's like not quite at a place where she knows how to say it. And and I like that she I don't know, just like reflecting on my own child, you're like, oh, you need that alpha friend because who else is gonna like get you French fries or like who else is gonna you know, push until you get the rehearsal space, or like Clara does a couple of pigs in this movie that it's like, Oh, if everyone in this group were the same kind of shy thirteen year old, I would I was you don't get the French fries, you don't get the you don't get the rehearsal space, and the movie doesn't happen. Um right exactly. Yeah, yeah, again, everyone's bringing something to the table. Um. And then on and then with Bobo, I mean again, like yeah, with Clara, she's like very very confident, or at least puts on the air of confidence. Um. On the other hand, you have Bobo. She loves to bully adults too. I love how pullys the ship out of most adults and it's so punk of her. Um. But then Bobo has some pretty obvious self esteem issues um that I think again are just like a product of She's in a society where there are certain beauty standards, and these girls, as punks are like trying to actively reject a lot of these like Western beauty standards where they have cut their hair short, they are anti makeup, They their style, like their clothing is like pretty gender neutral a lot of the time, and they have a lot of people calling them ugly. And uh. It very clearly affects Bobo, um because she says things like, oh, I'm never going to get a boyfriend. No one thinks I'm cute. I was never invited to the parties. And so even though like they're taking this like punk stance of rejecting beauty standards, like just like anyone wants to be desired and desirable and like wants to be attractive to someone and you can just tell that. And and so Bobo is uh, kind of in this trying to doing is like kind of doing this balancing act of like, yeah, well I want to like I want to seem punk and I cut my own hair and all the stuff. But she also like wants cute boys to like her in a very again relatable way, especially for that age. And I love that. I love when Clara wears the makeup secretly and then to meet the boys who wear makeup. Yeah, and Bobo is all piste off. She's like, wait a second, you're supposed to be You're It's like, I don't know, I get. Clara is so fascinating to me because I used to be fascinated with kids like this where it's like they're making all of the rules, but also the rules don't apply to them. Most are fumstances. I'm sure Clara was the one that was like, we're anti makeup and bubbles like, Okay, we're anti makeup, but then like, but Clara can wear makeup sometimes. But this is like one of my favorite I wrote down this chunk of it too, about makeup and stuff and how the boys at the beginning, the slightly older boys like call them all ugly and stuff, and it it's one of my favorite iron tensions within punk feminism, you know, is this idea of like and I I've at least read essays about punk feminism going back further than like I've been aware of punk, like going back in the eighties and seventies and stuff where, um, so much of it was about especially actually when punk when when punk women started wearing makeup, a lot of it was like intentionally over the top in a way to try and draw attention and be like you said, this is supposed to be pretty, but I'm warning so much that it's obviously ugly and like a way to go so overboard that it becomes ugly and and then you know, but then that that falls back and like becomes more moderated later in punk war than it just sort of becomes like punk women wear makeup and it's just like like everyone else or whatever, and it's just like trying to be conventionally attractive and but just with like ripped stockings or whatever. I'm not I'm not trying to talk to it on either of the conclusions that charge girls, right, Um, but I find this tension really interesting and I like that this one is situating this like third one that is actually I think more probably tied into the broader feminism of the like we're anti makeup, you know, as compared to just the like we're going to go over the top with makeup. Um, I don't know, right well, that's a thing that has been like something that I've honestly grappled with throughout my life where I'm like obviously a militant feminist and I'm not. I'm like, I'm not going to do anything that, uh like just because society thinks they should or a man thinks I should. But then I'm also like, well, I do want to be sexy. Mescarrel looks so good and every like, so like there are some indisputiful facts, so it's complicated. So like I do wear makeup pretty frequently. I like shave my legs and shave my under arms and things that I do that because like that's what the beauty standard is. But I but like, I think what a lot of people have kind of grappled with when it comes to feminism and beauty standards is like, well, feminism says that you it's your choice, Like you can do whatever you want with your body. So if you want to, you know, wear a lot of makeup and you know, present in a very like hyper feminine way that historically and traditionally is the thing that like appeals to, like the heteronormative male gaze. If you want to do that, absolutely fucking go off. If you if you want to reject that and uh, you know not do any of that, absolutely go off. Also, Like it's just it's all about like choice and doing what you and that's punk and that's why VR do s. I always find it interesting to watch, um women are not of my generation trying to navigate these issues and like how I don't know. My mom was pretty open to stuff, but sometimes she genuinely is like, wait, I'm confused. Where we were hanging out. I was pool side with my mommy incredible um, and she like noticed that I had shaved my armpits, which usually I don't, but I just sort of like, I don't know, I just felt like it. So I did, and I didn't think anything of it because I was like whatever, And she was like, wait, I thought you didn't shave your armpits because you're a feminist, and like she was like coming from a good place. She's like, I'm confused. I thought that you didn't do that because because of your rights. And I was like and then I was like weirdly having a hard time to describe. She's like, why did you do it? I was like, I don't know. I just wanted to. And I was like, that's what I was saying that that's what That's what I mean. I just should be able to do whatever the funk. I want to not think about it. So but for a second I was in my head. I was like, have I regressed? And I was like no, I think it's just like a little uncomfortable, and so it's just that you can do whatever you want with your body. So I just thought it was fascinating to like have that be something that like Bobo is very clearly grappling with and like the scene where she goes to meet up with Ellis one on one, she has like spiked her hair the way that the other boy she likes taught her to do it, and she takes off her glasses. I think because she perceives like her glasses is something that makes her less attractive. So like she's making these conscious choice is to um, you know, appear more attractive because she is in this like kind of like between a rock and a hard place kind of thing where she's like, well, I want to be punk and I want to reject beauty standards, but I also have this boy that I want to think things. I'm like this boy that I want to think I'm cute, so very relatable and like you were alluding to me, like a lot of punk boys like still uphold those same standards while like technically being like, oh yeah, like punk, but with the asterisks of like unless I personally don't think it's hot, like kind of again, It's it's funny because like I have this very you know, this conception, like I'm going through my like teens and twenties like as a boy, even though my twenties was as a boy named Margaret who addresses um. But people would basically be like really shyly, like I've seen people both be afraid of being rejected. I've seen women in particular be afraid of being rejected for not shaving and for shaving, you know, and like and most of the people that I'm talking to have had the experiences of being rejected for one or the other, because you will meet these like punk boys who are like, I can't believe you shave, you know, um, and I don't know. It's it's it's really it sucks to be a girl in our society. I just really like the way that this movie examines that in a way that's like not even a huge part of the story, but it's just like it's something that's obviously on like any teenager's mind or like it just like especially girls who are conditioned to I think that they need to be attractive and like do things to make them seem attractive, especially to boys. So again, I just yeah, I liked that that was a part of the movie. And then that scene where they like give the guitar to head Vig to like that they're like, well, first let's show you. We have to show you how to do it, and then she's just like okay, and then they give it to her and she's like, first of all, it's out of tune. And then secondly she and then she like plays it so well, and you just see the faces of those two guys and they're like, oh shit, like in in such a satisfying way. And they did that off they too, where they like try to like weirdly play it off and act like they knew she could do that the whole time in a way that's completely possibly. They're like yeah, yeah, cool. It's like because even those people are like overly earnest, right, there're still they're being they're making unintelligent decisions. Um, but they're like not bad people. They're like, you know, they're just like being misogynist, right, but they're like, I don't know, it's just they're so earnest about that. They're like, oh, really excited for this thing, and you know, and they're so excited that they got the electric guitar, like you know that they like went through a bunch of work to like get the girl band the electric guitar or whatever. Um, yeah, and I have them shipped just for full disclosure. Um, those two men, Oh yeah, I like that. I like that establishing with locals and being in love. Yeah, it's like it's misogyny and not necessarily a hateful way, but it's just like they assume that because they're girls, they can't do anything, or they assumed that like you know, oh you're you're a girl. You're girls in a band, so you're a girl band. And it's like they want to like help like include and like be inclusive and like yeah, girls can be in girl bands. Sure, but it's but they're they're misogyny manifests in a way that um, they just like don't trust that a girl could do anything. Okay, although I hate to say in their defense because I don't really mean it, but they've heard bo bo and that is they are not they're chronically not instruction. Yeah, that's true. That's true. It's I do love that they're just bad like they're they're not. And well that's also like like very realistic. Yeah, they have never really taken a music lesson. They don't know how to play the instruments they're playing, and their band absolutely sucks carrying the whole band on her back. But it's like that's also why punk is the revolutionary like not in terms of actual social change, but no offense to it. Um. But because that's the whole thing. I love that punk and like other genres do this too, right, but I love that punk is like you can be awful, you can be just absolutely awful, and you can still play shows, Like you can have fun and you can play shows one because some of the music is dead simple, and two because no one cares if it's really bad. Um, because it's about the aesthetic that you're creating. It's an aesthetic that is that you can create easily, you know. And then at the same time, like they still also really like these really good bands I do. I will say though that the part where I'm like, I expected the boys that they go meet up with, I'm wondering if you all had this. I expected them to be like at least sixteen or seventeen. Um. I did not realize that they were because they're in a magazine and then you see them and you're like, I thought they were gonna be like, oh my god, what are we going to do with these thirteen year olds who showed up? You know? And I was expecting either very dark turn or just lots of awkwardness. Um, But then they're also yeah, who are who are a little better at their bands? A little better at who do play better music, but like like he's dead and Clara's kind of like you can tell a dead guy to fun. You're like, that's true, you can. And then like the big concert at the end of the movie, the way that like the third act of most movies have like that big event that you know, everything's been leading up to this, and usually it's like this big epic, like extremely climactic like moment in the movie. But the big concert quote unquote at the end of this movie is maybe my favorite version of this that I've ever seen, because it goes horribly there. They don't play the music well, everyone's yelling at them and calling them communist counts, and then they just say, well, fuck you, fuck you in your shitty town. We are the best. And it's just like such a beautiful, like climactic moment of like of the movie. And uh, I feel like they in a way they kind of like they started like a small riot, like they did a very punk thing. So it's great, like and I love that they like it's not even like it's a contest again, I'm just school of frocking it, but it's like they like they had an awesome I didn't there there's so few like examples of like I don't know, just like kids doing stuff too because they want to and like it's fun and like that's I don't know. I mean I think I know that that's like somewhat of a generational thing too, but like, uh, you know, being raised to like excel at stuff and like if you're not good at it, there's no point been doing it. I feel like that is like a very more modern and it seems to be like dissipating a little bit, but definitely like a very strong millennial like instilled in you of like, well you do things be to become a resume, like not because you just want to kind of funk around and have fun. If working around and having fun as a waste of time. And to see these kids like be not very good kind of know that they want to be better, but it's not like they're not like losing sleepover being better and they're just like sucking around and having a good time. It's just I don't know, it shouldn't feel so refreshing to see kids sucking around and having a good time without like having a meltdown of like I'm not good enough. At this but it was I mean, it was it was cool. We normally would see like the Merry Sue version of like, well they start playing instruments and they get so good so fast, and I know there are criticisms about like to criticize something because it's a Merry Sooth thing. I don't know. We'll get we'll get into it in another episode. But normally you'd have like, oh, there they start playing music, and yeah, they're kind of bad at first, but then we see a training montage and then they're really good afterwards. And that never happens in this movie because it takes really long because it takes a really long time to get good at an instrument, and they are where they kind of like don't have to if they don't want to anyway, Like, yeah, girls and women being mediocre, we should see more of it. It's something to celebrate. So one time I was a drummer for a band on tour. I'm not a drummer. I do not play drums. I technically, um, I have some drums I built that are actually within read but I hit them and I record them and then I program the sounds that they make. UM. But one time, ten years ago or something. My friend is in this uh, this goth band, it's fairly punk. We're like, hey, come, we kicked out our key tar player. We need a third person for a band. Come on tour with us. And I was like, I'd love to play keytar and they're like, no, no, no, we want a drummer. And I'm like, I'd love to play keytar for you, and they were like, we'll fly you out two weeks early and you have two weeks to hang out in our apartment and learn how to play drums. But there's another way that you can't get away with being mediocre, which is electronic music. And so because I was playing this electronic drum kit, but there's so many backing tracks going on that on my my friend's wedding anniversary is this power couple band. We're playing in Providence from Island, and I just start fucking drifting. I've like lost everything. I'm just like drifting off. I'm like fucking lost, and and the guitar yeah, and he walks over and he presses this pedal that he never told me about that that mutes me and brings up backing tracks of exactly what I'm playing for the rest of the night. I'm a glorified stage dancer, um, pretending play drums of drums, and I was I was so grateful because I was like, I told you, I'm not a fucking drummer, right, So you can't learn to play drums in two weeks. All you have to do is uh fail, yeah, play fail on stage always far yeah. Oh my god. I Stories. I keep to listen to Margaret stories all day, Like, okay, wait, I have one more about I wrote this one down because I have to figure out how to shoehorn this and it's about a Swedish punk girl. Um. And one time I'm in I'm in Sweden and I'm staying at this cooperatively owned I've only spent like maybe a total like three weeks in Sweden, but I'm really impressed by a lot of stuff that's going on. I'm in town for the anarchist but fair and the anarchists also owned this entire apartment building that's cooperatives. Sorry, it's it's co op owned, so instead of having to live in a communal house, you get your own whole apartment. But then the whole building is a cooperative, so there's some shared infrastructure and these like more hippie ish anarchists or whatever. They have this punk kid who's like nine, and she's like she's convinced her best friend, who's this boy, to be in a band with her. And she's like mom, Mom, Mom. And she doesn't speak English and she's like, mom, you have to interpret for me because I'm going to play Margaret a song. And so I got to see this, uh, this band of two nine year old maybe ten year old Swedish kids and and it was like one of them has a keyboard and I don't know if the other one had an instrument, and they're just like da da da, I don't want to go to bed. I hate bedtime. I want want to go to bed. And it ruled. It was the most punk thing I've ever seen. It was a it was just me and mom in the audience. Uh. And I it's like I wrote this down, is like I don't know where to shoehorn this in, but I really am excited to tell the story. That's the perfect Oh my god, and what and actually broke my head a little bit. Just realize that those two kids are now adults. Um. And so if you ever played this please reach out to me. They are the biggest fans and listeners of the Battle Cast. I mean, stranger things have happened in regards to this show, like people just pop their head out of the woodwork. Wait that is so, that's beautiful. And they also were teaching me Swedish um as we would like walk through the forest. They were basically like, what's wrong with this idiot? Why doesn't she understand Swedish, which is a perfectly legitimate question when I'm in Sweden. Um. And so they're just like pointing out objects and telling me the word for them, and um, and all I remember is hop and skip up. This is the like which is jump and run. Um. But oh but that sounds so English words. Yeah, and I remember because it was like nine year olds jumping up and down quite hot. Do you understand? Do you understand? And what do you say? Everyone? Let's take another break, Let's do it, let's do it, let's do it. I I wade that like a bunch of like little things that you're just like, Wow, great childhood. Okay, let's finger toothbrush culture loved impromptu sleepover finger toothbrush. Been there, done that, been there, done that? You still go there every once in a while. You never know when Fingertoothbrush is going to come back into the mix. I wrote down a bunch of things that I loved here. Let me see um the So there's that scene where they're thinking of recruiting hell Vig, but they're like, but she's a Christian and I'm not sure if this is going to work out, And then Bobo says, will we will influence her away from God? The funniest line of dialogue in the world, And then they're like, actually, it will be really like political of us to hang out with someone less fortunate, um, because she doesn't have any friends and so she's less fortunate. And then and then they say if she doesn't stop being a Christian, will kick her out. And then Clara plays her plays head Vig a song called hang God and then tries to convince her that it's a Christian song. That whole string of events was so funny, and I also like the head Vig in spite of and now it makes sense. I'm seeing now, Margaret that um that the filmmaker is um a pretty devout Christian but also a feminist, and like that that they don't talk head vig out of being a Christian. I think that she remains a Christian punk the whole time and like stays true to herself and her friends, except that about her, which is like just another fun like little thing that they don't draw a ton of attention to. But God, I love that's like where you're like, man, kids like um, kids like Clara are the best when they're just like they go so hard, they're so reckless, and they're like, I'm gonna I'm gonna kill God, catch up as God. Gosh. I love when Clara Clara calls her brother a fascist and a cop because he doesn't want her and Bobo to stay in the room during his party. He doesn't want a thirteen year old to get drunk and so he is a fashion cop. She's like, you're a fascist. And the drinking age is probably in Sweden for beer and wine at this point. I'm not and I know that at least the beer age was sixteen at some point while I was there, and I was really confused. My biggest not criticism of this film, but the hardest part to connect for me is that these are the biggest problems. Yes, it's like sure, and it's kind of interesting to me because like punk is this like you know, this music of the the rejected, the music of rebellion or whatever. But it's it's actually kind of cool because it I think it has like an inherent almost critique of punk within it and that it's like Clara is the most punk and she's rejecting her perfectly loving family and that's useful to her, right, It's like useful for her to you know, separate herself out from her parents or whatever. But like, you know, you can see why this might not connect with the the modern person coming up into a like will there is there a future? Right um? And which which is part of the crucible of punk being formed as you know, cold war lack of future or whatever. And I don't know, but it's just it's it's really interest see to because it's this very uh, it's it's a very middle class punk set up, although you also get the impression that the middle classes because of a strong social net, like because a single mom is also totally fine at least appears to be totally fine financially. Obviously, she has emotional issues that her child is perfectly willing to help her deal with, which is very sweet. Um. I don't know anyway, that was the part for me that I was like, it actually made me kind of sad, like nostalgic for when there's a future. Yeah, yeah, I did also kind of because I also was like, I'm maybe just not familiar enough with the economics of Sweden, but it did seem to be like a lower middle class, Like they weren't their immediate needs were always met. They didn't seem to encounter people whose immediate needs were not being met. Um, which is fine, but yeah, like that is like a very specific class sliver of punk kids to show. Um, I wanted to I wanted to talk really quickly about the parents too, because Bobo, Um, I mean Clara, I kind of like that Clara's family structure. It's like almost presented in a jokey way of like Clara uh wants to have more problems than she maybe actually does. Um, her family is really sweet and her biggest problem with her brother likes joy division now and like her dad is annoying when he plays the clarinet. Like very very sweet family. Um, Bobo's I like that, Bobo is I think my impression anyways was that like her introvertedness and her like insecurities probably are connected to her home life as well, because like, I don't know, I found this to be kind of like a relatable dynamic of like she's it's like her mom clearly loves her very much, like wants to be supportive, wants to be there for her, but needs parenting herself, and so like just like the Bobo knows way too much about her mom's personal life, and like her mom sometimes treats her more as a friend than a guardian. She doesn't always know where she is, like stuff that it's like, But I also like that it's like it's she's not positioned as like a bad parent, but it's like clear that their relationship is complicated and that she can't be there for Bobo in all the ways that Bobo, you know, needs an adult Headpig's mom too like embarrassing to religious mom culture. She was like, my friends are going to disown me because my mom is threatening to arrest them h and drag them to church like calling the Mr. Doesn't ever say you can't hang out with those two their bad influence. Yeah, Yeah, It's like there there's a lot of gray area in people in the way that like exists in the real world and also feels so like small community vibes where it's like they like you're saying earlier market with the like the two guys who run the youth center, it's like they are not bad people, but they just have some ingrained behaviors that these kids are challenging in them that they're like not quite ready to unlearn, and like, but this is the youth center, So where else are they going to go? They have to like learn how to talk to each other because this is the only place where there's one bass guitar and one drum kit and like, yeah, yeah, I also love that that scene where Hedwig's mom like fixes Bobo and Clara like cookies and milk and tea, like cookies and tea and drinks and snacks, and then she sits them down. She's like, I'm gonna put I'm going to report him to the police. But before that, she's like, can I get you anything? Do you want more cookies? Do you think it was all a faint Like do you think because because clearly that you have to go with church with me was just a moral lesson, right, not an actual attempt to force them to go to church. Do you think that the I'm going to call the police was like an actual threat or a way to make them take it so seriously that they had to come over to talk. I think it was the latter. I think it was just like, these kids need to wake up call and I'm gonna in best case scenario, she scares them into going to church. Like that's the best case scenario for But yeah, I also did really appreciate I I fully thought, just based on like movie logic, that that would result in Headvig not being allowed to hang out with them anymore. Um, totally, but you know, they put her in check, and I like that it kind of remained a little ambiguous whether like head Vig sent one at that haircut or not, Like she didn't end up being upset about it and it looks great, um, but there. I mean, that's like a very another very middle school thing where like you like, you're like, I'm not as old than this. It's not going to hurt me, but I don't know. And then you know, maybe he talked to an adult later and you're like, IM bummed out, and then they you know, and then hopefully they don't threaten to arrest your friends, but sometimes that will happen. I guess. Well. Also, it was like, you know, because little Sister is the snitch, Little Sister is the only bad character in the the only villain snitches them out, and you get the impression that it was little Sister says I saw her trying not to get her hair cut, which is like true, you know, um, but it's like not the whole story. It seems like she probably was, and you all were talking about this earlier, and I really resonated with it. It's like I really needed my friends who kicked dragged me kicking and screaming into trouble. Um a little bit lucky, but it worked out as well as it did. Um, But I really appreciate it because I was also the like, you know, like, I don't know, guys, if we should really crime right now right? Sometimes you need the friend that's like this is this is a good crime. We're going to do this one yeah totally, And you're like, oh, okay, cool, yeah yeah mm hmm. And then I love that it's it's head vig at the end when um Clara and Bobo are fighting over Ellis, with which again, like on the surface, that just might seem like a oh, two girls fighting over a boy, like, but like, I don't know the way it's handled in this movie, it's just more than I like that. It's like clear, that's like they're fighting about the basic guitar there. Yeah, that basically they're fighting about how the bar always steam rolls bow bow and tells her what she wants exactly right totally um. But on the surface, and yeah, it just kind of seems like they're fighting over a boy. And I love the head vague facilitates. They're like makeup and she's like, now you look the other one in the eye and say I like you. And then now it's your turn. You do it. You say I like you to your friend, and then they do it, and it's so sweet and I just there bond their their friendship between the three of them is just so precious. And I because I wrote down in my like my notes, uh, one of the lines is a feature length of exploration of being why heterosexuals is a shame um, because it's like they're all like fighting over these boys that they don't actually like and they but then I actually later after really sitting with it. I was like, you know, I actually this works really well, Like it's it's not it's not declaring any of these characters heterosexual, but it is definitely saying that, like at least at least two of them have had her sexual love interests. We don't head. VIC has like a moment, right, which could mean anything when you're like when you're you, and I actually realized in some ways, I think if it was made now in the US, it might end up like more directly a queer film, and that wouldn't be inherently bad. But there's actually something really pure about the fact that they just sort of don't know what they're doing within this context. Um, I don't know. I had this moment where I was like, wait, am I glad that anyway? I I don't know where I'm going with this. I'm just done. Now. Are you saying you're shipping more of the characters? Well? Like, perhaps no, but it's like you see the way that you know, we we think so much in society, or at least I do, like especially since I do a lot of like history research and and no one ever writes about the homosexuality of people before, right, and you you have this like gap How's problem where it's like you cannot tell who's gay in history because is she just a cat lady who lives in a tower by herself, or is she a cat lady who lives with her best friend in the tower by the two of themselves? Like that still doesn't actually tell you whether or not they we're dating, um, or whether or not this person has no interest in men like ace characters are also people are written out of history and so no, I I lost my train of thought here. Um, But it's okay, So they have a lot of like gal pal energy, right, but that's also just an honest way that humans can interact. Like one of the things that I think is one of the biggest shames about patriarchy. Um, clearly the treatment of women are being a bigger deal. But but you see old video, you know, you see old pictures of men and they can interact with other men in ways that are affectionate without its saying anything one way or the other about the sexuality. Um. We talk about this quite a bit on the show where like Different how Like. I think we talked about this most recently on Top Gun, the Top Gun episode where everyone's like this is the gayest movie ever made. And it's like, well, that might be true, and maybe those characters are queer and interested in each other, or that queer and not interested in each other like it could be, or they're just friends who have male affection toward each other. It could be any number of things. But people automatically look at male affection and ascribe, oh, they must be gay, um to it. So, which is like, you know, it's it's more complicated than that, and you know there's a lot there's a bigger discussion to be had, but um, yeah, let's let's let people be friends, you know, and speaking about you're talking about Margaret of like, I mean it's like, yeah, we have we have no idea where these kids are gonna like land in terms of their identity, and I like that you kind of get the feeling even like every single party between like the two middle school punk bands, like it's fully like they're performing for each other of like oh we are in we're we are dating. No, we're not, And like I'm putting my arm around you. What does it mean I'm touching your hand? Like there, it's like like any kid, Yeah, it's almost like okay, well, this is how I have seen heterosexuality laid out for me, especially like eight two, I can't imagine, uh, and like now I am doing it, and then it's like who knows what happens down the line when um, yeah, it's it's it's sweet, and the way it's presented is like innocent, even when you're right with with with Ellis. And also I mean to Ellis's cry at it, you know, way easier to go to someone you just fucking fall off the map doesn't matter, especially because he appears to live in a suburb, which they make fun of himymore. They're like, where what is this? There's a forest over here and he's like no. The last thing I kind of wanted to touch on, and I think this might go back to sort of that like beauty standards conversation. But um, there's that scene where Clara and Bobo are talking to two girls. It's toward the beginning of the movie working together, like the leotard, very spandex like yeah do do do do do? Yeah? The dance at the at the talent show. Um, yes, they because those are girls who like they're wearing Pastel's and they're blonde. Is long, and they're kind of like giving bobone Clara a hard time for just like looking the way they do and behaving the way they do. And I feel like, uh, this, this is reminiscent of the like, well, our characters are not like the other Girls thing. But again, the way it's presented in this movie, it's it's it just it felt different than that. It just it felt more like, yeah, these two characters are you know, kind of they would be considered oddballs quote unquote by like mainstream society because they're very intentionally doing that, like you know try you know, like rejecting societies standards, um and the will. They are kind of casting judgment on these like quote unquote normy girls. It just I don't know, I cannot explain why it feels different. But the way we criticized they, like, I didn't feel like, you know, like, oh, they're not like the other girls. Didn't feel like a movie bullying like that, didn't they didn't even feel like even like a movie bullying interactions like that. I felt like kids that were like, like the girls were being mean too, Bobbo and Clara. Yes, yes, I was like, oh god, these many Olivia dudont John's are telling them that Punk is dead. That's that's gotta hurt, that's gotta sting. Um. But it did feel like, I don't know, it just feel like a very like kid interaction of like no one really knows what they're talking about in this interaction. Um. It didn't feel like the like overwritten middle school bullies that you're used to saying in movies. It was like like, yeah, these kids are not going to be friends. They don't have a lot of respect for each other. But it's not like I don't know, Yeah I agree, and and and I feel like it's you avoid the like not like other girls trope by just like getting to know that character, which is what this this entire movie is. It's like we know so much about their background, like what draws them to Punk, what draws them to each other, and and all this stuff like it'll makes sense. It does. So, Yeah, that was the last thing I wanted to touch on. Is there anything else I think that I guess like from an intersectional point of view, it's like worth pointing out that I believe the entire cast like is entirely white. Um, And yeah, I kind of like did a little bit of but not a ton of digging too, Like you know, it's just like there's a certain amount you can just sort of say, like Swede, you know, um right, I feel like Sweden is kind of famously rather homogeneous in terms of not entirely demographic fixed, not entirely, but like it is not quite the like cultural melting pot is like other places. Um. But yeah, I I definitely um um. I was curious about that too, because I'm like, is this just what the demographics of Sweden were at this time? But they're also in a major city, and it did feel like this is this is especially white even for Sweden my understanding, and I I'm not an expert in this. I know a little bit more about Finland than I do. I avoided all of the problems that you while we're talking about about accidentally causing drama within your friend groups by dating people. But I just dated a finished girl all throughout high school who lived in a different country, and so I got to you wouldn't know if she doesn't go here, she's in one in this country. UM. Love that. Yeah, And which honestly was probably my like low key way of just being like, I don't actually want to date. This all seems weird and let's see. UM. So I don't know as much about Sweden, and probably some of the listeners do, but I'm I'm under the impression one that UM, at least more recently, the suburbs versus city thing is inverted in Sweden and a lot of places in Europe. UM, the suburbs would actually be more of a marker of being poor, uh, and also be more likely to have a more stronger immigrant culture to to my understanding, and this does not reflect back to the eighties UM. And then also a lot of the waves of immigration from UM I believe mostly North Africa and UM swanna. Is that the way that I'm new to this terminology UM Southwest Asia and north Northern Africa. UM. I mean I believe that was more like the mid to late nineties. UM. But I again not a demographics expert, and I but one of the only reasons worth bringing it up is one there's a coziness to this particular punk fantasy or whatever that that's very sweet but is like complicated by the current rising. I'm really not trying to hold this movie to these standards, but it's just like feels worth pointing out that like, um, there's a lot of problems with racism in particular in Sweden. Again not trying to pretend like I don't live in a country full of racism, but like so, there's a certain amount of like the all whitenesses feels it's like marked to me because of the current context. But I don't have enough information to know whether it feels marked to the context in which it was made or the context of the time it represents. As always, if there are any UM listeners who can shed more light on this, listeners from Sweden, UM or just anyone who has more information, feel free to share. UM No, I'm glad you brought it up, though, because that's something that I think sometimes we are guilty of of being like, well, yeah, this movie sucks on the issue of race, but we we don't know, we have enough information, so we're not sure, and then we kind of drop it in a way that we probably should not. We should continue to research and have a better perspective UM on the whole, because I mean, like so many movies, there is no reason that the cast to this movie should be all white. You're making a fucking movie and also there's no way that was true. Um, that that could be true? So, um, does that bring us to the Bachchel test, of which which this movie passes very handily, almost constantly, mostly between Bobo Clara and head Vig and um, but yeah, there's there's other combinations. But yeah, it's a girls talking about punk music, it's girls talking about religion, it's girls talking about sometimes you know, boys and ellis and stuff. But um, yeah, it's it's a whole handful of many different things I know, and it's it's so effortless. It's just like what the story is. And I love that we get to see every kind of facet of these kids inner world. It's awesome. I love it. I'm excited to watch it again to recommend it. It's also like, if you haven't watched this movie, it's streaming on goddamn tube. It's amazing great, So if you haven't watched it and you enjoyed this episode, get to it. So let's let's go. Let's get to our our nipple scale. Nipple scales zero to five nipples based on how the movie fares when we examine it through an intersectional feminist lens, and I would say I would give this, I think like a four point five um be cut docking it a little bit for but again, like, uh, it's that tricky thing where it's like maybe these just were the demographics of Sweden and nineteen early nineteen eighties, or maybe it was just that they, you know, didn't think to be more inclusive. So um, I'll cautiously give it four and a half nipples um because I think that otherwise it's doing a lot of really amazing things as far as just like centering a female friendship, centering just like girls in punk music, Like there's just not many stories about that. Um. I think the examination of how different things like beauty standards and romance and misogyny and like because they're in uh in like music, which is often kind of like a male dominated thing, and they are dealing with those youth center guys and the Iron Fist band and like being misogynists towards them in kind of subtle ways and not like overtly hateful ways, but like things that they still have to deal with, and just like all of those interesting, nuanced things that the movie explores in a very like seamless and effortless and authentic way I thought was really awesome. So I'm gonna give the movie four and a half nipples. I'll give one to each of the gals in the band. Um, I'll give one to the child acting in general, which I thought was incredible. UM. I famously and very critical of child acting on the show. Uh. And maybe it's just because it's in a language that I don't speak, but I think you can. You can still tell when acting is good or bad even if you're not speaking that language. And I think it was really good acting. And then I'll give my half nipple two Um clarinet Dad clarinet, Dad's clarinet. As a former clarinet player myself, I gotta show the clarinet some love. I'll go. I'll go four point five as well. I do think it's worth bringing up that there's no country that having a completely white cast. Uh, you know, especially in a coming of age story, where like there was room for diversity in the story. There's no reason it needed to um be the way it was. I think I'm glad that we got to discuss that. And I really love this movie. I feel like it's a representation of girlhood and just the I don't know the like kind of like incredibly specific, specifically specific specificity. Let's go with that of but of of like uncomfortable coming of age experiences and like trying to figure your ship out and contradicting yourself all the time, and your parents suck, but they're trying and like it. Just there are so many like universal cool themes being explored here. I really love it and give it for nipples. I'd give one one each two head Vig, Bobo and Clara on to give one to Clarinet Dad, and I'll give the last half nipple with with a vote of faith that she'll do about her in the future to head Vig's little sister, the villain of the story. Yeah, maybe she was just actually really concerned for you know, headig sake. Yeah, she really thought head Vig was gonna go to hell for that there, I mean speaking of calling a sibling a fascist, and she was the fascist to write a song about her. I'm also going to take the cheap way out and copy the same number of nipples that you all give it. But I do feel like it feels it feels right to me, Um, I will give And four point five is like the punkest because you're like, I really liked it, but I can't not be critical. Yeah, exactly, it's not perfect. And oh my god. I used to review things on good Reads before I had published books, and I used it like I didn't know that the internet meant five stars is good and everything below it means it's absolute garbage. And so I used to like accurately rate things, and then people will get mad at me, Like after I started publishing books, people will go to my good Reads and be like, I can't believe Margaret Kiljoy gave four stars to this other book as if as if her books are better, and I'm like, no, I would have given my book four stars, Like I know what's wrong with it. I wrote it, you know. But anyway, um from anyway, So one nipple goes to Clara's suit, one nipple goes to it being top three punk movies. UM. One to the fact that they're not I'm not giving them to people, I apologize. One is to the fact that they're not a punk band. Sorry, they're not a girl band. Sorry, terrible slip. Um one is to the fact that there is no doubt in my mind that these girls would have taken in a trans girl. There's no part of me that thinks that they would have rejected me from their crew. Um and my my half nipple goes to them fishing for people with yarn out the window. That's true. We we cannot forget. Yeah the absolute and then and then shout out to have you all seen together. I'm this guy's other movie about a It's the best movie about a communal house that I've ever seen, like in terms of like how communal living works. It's a very similarly overly earnest, beautiful film. I've also only saw it once, like five or six years ago. I didn't know it's the same director. I just thought Swedes were particularly good at making cozy films about things that I like. Anyway, sorry for shoehorning and everything that I want to not even a little bit um, Margaret, it was such a treat having you. What would you like to plug? Where can people follow you on social media? All of that? Well, if you like hearing me talk about things I like, I have a podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. You can hear me tell Jamie Loftus about the time that spain Um stole itself back from the bosses and the fascists for a little while. Um, absolutely treat and that is a good place to find me. It's on cool Zone Media and you can follow me on Twitter at Magpie kill Joy. You can follow me on Instagram at Margaret Killjoy. And I guess if you like google my name, plus book or music or something, you can find the other stuff I do. Hell yeah, yeah, thank you. So we're so I'm like just genuinely thrilled. Uh you're on the show. I'm so glad we got to talk about a punk movie. I don't think we've ever covered a punk movie on Uh. So I think it's good and important that we brought an authority in for the occasion. Uh, thank you, so, thank you so much again for being here. Everyone listen to everything Market does. It's the best as for us. You can find us on social media and Instagram and Twitter at Bechdel Cast. You join our patreon ak Matreon, where we cover two additional movies just Caitlin and I every month, and there's also a backlog of over a hundred episodes. There so lots of lots of fun to be had over in the Matreon. We've got our merch which you can find at t public dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast. Jamie, in a very punk way, designs all of it classic punk. I think everyone's gonna be like Caitlyn Do, like he's pretty wide punk in your heart. Um, it's true. I like it when the one boy is kind of criticizing what Clara is wearing and he's like, you don't look very punk, and she's like, it's the opinions that matter. It's like, yeah, it's you gotta have those punk opinions. So anyway, Jamie does design all of our march and you can grab that again at public dot com, slash the backtel cast and uh, you know, rate review Us, etcetera, and uh, otherwise, we are the best. You're the best, bet Bye bye