New materials for quantum technology, how ultrasound can help detect breast cancer

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly

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podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.

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Coming up in this episode, we meet Daniel

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Sarno,

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who is a cofounder

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and chief technology officer of Sona.

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Based at The UK's

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National Physical Laboratory,

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Sona is developing a new method for determining

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breast tissue density

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using ultrasound

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rather than conventional x-ray based mammography.

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Sarno explains

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how this can help improve

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the early detection

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of breast cancer.

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But first, I'm in conversation

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with Bhaskaran

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Muraleed Haran,

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who is at the Indian Institute of Technology,

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Bombay.

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An engineer by training, he has a keen

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interest in using computational physics to develop new

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materials and devices

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for quantum science and technology.

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I began the interview

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by asking about how computational science

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is being used to create

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new quantum materials.

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So

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in order to so the next generation of

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quantum technologies

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will feature

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what is called quantum hardware. And the quantum

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hardware is obviously devices.

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And just like you have the

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complementary MOS or the CMOS being the building

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block of the digital technology,

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you will have building blocks based on quantum

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devices for the next

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generation or the upcoming quantum technologies.

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For example, the, superconducting qubit, that's a device.

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So

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just like in the CMOS era,

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the

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the industry relied on device modeling as an

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important aspect of, you know, giving feedback to

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experiments.

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So there's whole there's this whole thing about

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a feedback between theory and experiment and and

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as to achieve a synergy between theory and

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experiment.

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So that first experiment

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is understood via theory

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and then the theory can probably predict something

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new. And the experiment can go toward that

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step and back and forth and,

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you know, that's how things develop.

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Another thing is theory is also useful in

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giving

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inputs about

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possibly new materials that can achieve the same

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functionality.

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One great example

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is just before

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we are in what is called the Beyond

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Moore era, where devices are shrinking toward the

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limits

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and people are looking at alternate technologies.

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One of the technologies

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just before all this quantum,

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revolution started was Spintronics.

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Spintronics is the technology

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or the

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or what's called the paradigm which tries to

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use spins or the electron spins

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as a medium of information.

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Just like you have the charge, which is

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basically the charge of the electron,

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you also each electron comes with a spin.

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And in high school, you would have studied

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up spin and down spin. That can be

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units of information.

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So one of the things computation

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did is that they predicted a new material

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called magnesium oxide,

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which can produce a better spintronic device. And

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lo and behold, that tech the magnesium oxide

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based,

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Spintronic devices are getting close to, you know,

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being in the market or something like that.

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This is an example where theory can predict

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a new functionality

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and eventually lead to new developments.

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The same goes with probably

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several nice ideas can come from theory.

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And computational

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is the computational

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modeling is the next step. Theory is more

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like at the level where you can come

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up with neat ideas from physics.

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Then comes the actual computational modeling where you

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try to simulate possibly the actual device situation.

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And that is more hands on towards

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talking to experimentalists or talking towards technology, etcetera.

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So another example is back in the ninety's

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sorry, back in the early two thousand's, people

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were trying out carbon nanotube transistors as a

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possible next generation. And that's when a lot

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of theorists were working

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at the level of understanding how carbon nanotubes

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can behave like transistors, etc. Today, there's a

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lot of computational theory which working on two

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d materials.

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And especially

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toward

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transistor technologies, etcetera,

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on molybdenum disulfide and various other materials.

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The same way I could say that theory

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and modeling helps

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in many ways. One is, of course, there's

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a lot of work on superconducting qubits.

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And then from the superconducting

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qubits, you need to achieve

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communications

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between these qubits.

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So there's a lot of theory and modeling

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at that level where you can understand and

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go towards the

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various layers that are involved in the quantum

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technology.

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You have the building block that is a

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qubit.

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Just like the transistor was a building block.

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Then you have, you put them into circuits

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and then you make them into a processor.

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The same way we are hoping that quantum

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technology will reach a processor level.

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And at that level, you have a lot

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of scope for computational engineers to sort of

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help and improve the designs and things like

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that.

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So can you talk a bit about some

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of the materials that you're investigating

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at the moment? What are the hot materials

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at the moment

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for,

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quantum Yeah. Technologies? Yep. So when we talk

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about quantum technologies,

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the first building block is a qubit or

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the quantum bit.

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And to realize quantum bit already or the

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qubit, there are already many platforms.

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I would just trace back to 1926

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for a second.

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At that point of time,

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they predicted that a device called the MOSFET

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or what's called metal oxide semiconductor

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field effect is possible.

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But no one took that for serious,

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no one took that to serious notice.

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And the bipolar junction transistor was invented in

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somewhere around 1949.

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And the inventors were back then asked, what

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is the application?

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Bardeen, Bertain and Shockley.

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John Bardeen just came up and said, probably

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it's a good amplifier. It can be used

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as a hearing aid.

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Now you can believe it. The transistor changed

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the world.

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And I think in nineteen fifties, someone took

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up the field effect transistor

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and then rest is history. Whatever the patent

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was filed in 1924,

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in nineteen fifties it came up. So here's

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the deal.

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Lots of competing

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technologies or paradigms exist much before the real

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one takes on and becomes

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the true, you know, life changing technology. So

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at this stage, at the nascent stage, we

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have several candidates for the qubits. One is

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a superconducting

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qubit which is reasonably mature.

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We are looking into superconducting

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hybrid systems for that purpose to understand

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the inner workings of the superconducting qubit device.

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And at more exploratory levels or not

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not so much nascent, but somewhere in between

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we have the silicon qubits

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and donor qubits and various types of materials

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that are surrounding the silicon.

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The ambition is to integrate silicon into cubits.

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And so silicon cubits are also quite actively

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investigated and we are also doing a lot

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of work on understanding

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the devices that

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make these qubits.

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The third one is for other quantum technologies.

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Those are technologies that are not just necessarily

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qubits but

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maybe for single photon detection

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or surrounding various other

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applications

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that come under the quantum umbrella.

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You have a lot of materials like tungsten

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telluride. So a lot of two d materials

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are under a lot of investigation

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for various applications

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surrounding this whole quantum technology, which we are

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also actively looking at. For instance, tungsten telluride

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is a material that is known to be

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something called a topological insulator.

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Now a topological insulator is an interesting material

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that sort

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of conducts

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what is called very pristine edge states that

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are not

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or that are

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that do not have

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what you call traditional words dissipation.

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Now dissipation is like think about cars in

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a traffic and a lot of people around.

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Your car cannot go smoothly.

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But these are materials

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that can go in such an environment, but

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on the edges, they conduct so well that

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it's almost like edges of freeways

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where you go

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without scattering with anyone. But the bulk of

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the material is like a crowded road.

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So this kind of a new material gives

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you very interesting properties which can be used

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for various quantum applications.

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It can also be used for classical applications.

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So these are the classes of materials we

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look at. And the word is a nice

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word for these. It's called quantum materials.

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Now you might ask every material could be

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quantum. The answer is

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it's not like that.

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Quantum materials are special because

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you can see their if I can we

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finally use the word, quantumness

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at longer length scales. For instance, when you

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measure the resistance of a topological material, it

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will show you something that's quantized

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at

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there's a standard number for that. But yeah.

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So it will show you a quantized resistance

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and things like that. So these are materials

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that can be used for various surrounding quantum

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technologies

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That include,

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photon detection

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and materials.

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They could be also what's called peripheral technologies,

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the qubit technologies and various things like that.

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So we are at an exciting phase and

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world is changing rapidly. There are lots of

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materials to investigate.

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And every day there's a new breakthrough and

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we hope to sort of ride the wave

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with our research. Right. And and and what

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about at the at the device level?

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What what what sort of devices are you

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are you interested in studying

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from a computational point of view at the

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moment?

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Yes. Thank you.

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So the devices I work on are specifically

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related to two things. One is the qubits

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stem cells. How

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how to make better qubits with the existing

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devices. So in that sense, we look at

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what is called quantum dot devices.

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These devices can host what is called, for

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instance, silicon qubits or spin qubits.

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These are one type of qubit. As I

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said, there are many competing qubit

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technologies. The other devices we look at are

283
00:11:06,894 --> 00:11:09,774
superconducting hybrid systems as I said. One of

284
00:11:09,774 --> 00:11:11,934
which is a reasonably mature technology, it's called

285
00:11:11,934 --> 00:11:14,834
the transmon qubit, which is based on superconductors.

286
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,820
There are other qubits that are also being

287
00:11:17,879 --> 00:11:18,779
currently investigated.

288
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,240
And there are many advantages slash disadvantages at

289
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,779
at the level of each platform.

290
00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,159
So one of the things that would come

291
00:11:27,159 --> 00:11:29,325
up next is a hybrid quantum system that

292
00:11:29,325 --> 00:11:31,665
could actually leverage the advantages of various

293
00:11:32,205 --> 00:11:33,825
types of, systems,

294
00:11:34,365 --> 00:11:36,764
bring them together for a quantum processing. So

295
00:11:36,764 --> 00:11:38,285
in that sense, we are looking at two

296
00:11:38,285 --> 00:11:39,825
d materials for qubits.

297
00:11:40,205 --> 00:11:42,700
We are looking at spin qubits at silicon

298
00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,100
level. We are also looking at superconducting hybrid

299
00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:45,600
systems

300
00:11:46,139 --> 00:11:48,540
at a broad level for various other competing

301
00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:49,440
qubit paradigms.

302
00:11:50,220 --> 00:11:53,180
Yeah. I see. And one of the,

303
00:11:54,164 --> 00:11:55,464
sort of early applications,

304
00:11:55,764 --> 00:11:57,945
I suppose, of quantum computers

305
00:11:58,565 --> 00:11:59,625
is doing

306
00:12:00,084 --> 00:12:00,584
simulations

307
00:12:01,365 --> 00:12:02,184
of materials

308
00:12:02,644 --> 00:12:05,945
because, of course, materials are quantum in nature.

309
00:12:06,269 --> 00:12:09,550
And it it in some cases, it's easier

310
00:12:09,550 --> 00:12:11,810
to do the simulation on a quantum computer,

311
00:12:12,029 --> 00:12:14,269
if you had one, than it would be

312
00:12:14,269 --> 00:12:16,750
on a classical computer. Is that something that

313
00:12:16,750 --> 00:12:17,889
you're you're actively

314
00:12:18,670 --> 00:12:21,090
looking at at the moment, actually using

315
00:12:21,654 --> 00:12:24,855
nascent quantum computers to do some of your

316
00:12:24,855 --> 00:12:27,495
computational work? Or is that is that something

317
00:12:27,495 --> 00:12:28,634
from for the future,

318
00:12:29,414 --> 00:12:31,035
with regards to your research?

319
00:12:31,815 --> 00:12:33,894
Yes. So thank you for this question. So

320
00:12:33,894 --> 00:12:34,715
there are many,

321
00:12:35,414 --> 00:12:37,570
let's say there are many aspects to your

322
00:12:37,570 --> 00:12:40,289
question. The first part was more to do

323
00:12:40,289 --> 00:12:43,490
with simulating materials. Right? So that is often

324
00:12:43,490 --> 00:12:46,610
called quantum simulations. That's a word for it.

325
00:12:46,610 --> 00:12:48,470
So you can simulate a hypothetical

326
00:12:49,250 --> 00:12:49,750
material.

327
00:12:50,315 --> 00:12:52,394
For instance, there is there was there were

328
00:12:52,394 --> 00:12:53,934
some materials that people

329
00:12:54,475 --> 00:12:56,954
predicted in theory that really don't come as

330
00:12:56,954 --> 00:12:57,534
a material.

331
00:12:57,914 --> 00:12:59,914
For instance, there's something called the Kita f

332
00:12:59,914 --> 00:13:02,235
chain, which is supposed to have what's called

333
00:13:02,235 --> 00:13:03,534
a p wave superconductivity.

334
00:13:04,235 --> 00:13:05,534
Doesn't exist in nature.

335
00:13:05,899 --> 00:13:08,379
Right? There's another chain called some of these

336
00:13:08,379 --> 00:13:10,940
materials they are they have something called SSI

337
00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:13,740
chain. Many of these materials don't exist in

338
00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:17,120
nature. But you can simulate them using quantum,

339
00:13:17,884 --> 00:13:18,865
for instance, quantum

340
00:13:19,245 --> 00:13:21,325
computer. Not just a quantum computer but you

341
00:13:21,325 --> 00:13:24,284
can simulate them by aligning materials in a

342
00:13:24,284 --> 00:13:24,784
row

343
00:13:25,164 --> 00:13:27,725
trying to achieve that Hamiltonian. That is called

344
00:13:27,725 --> 00:13:28,784
a quantum simulation.

345
00:13:29,325 --> 00:13:31,589
However, if you're asking about how we use

346
00:13:31,589 --> 00:13:34,089
the quantum computer to do some of our

347
00:13:34,309 --> 00:13:36,649
device simulations, the answer is no yet.

348
00:13:37,029 --> 00:13:39,690
We do not we do not yet simulate

349
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:42,549
these things. And there are quantum computers I

350
00:13:42,549 --> 00:13:45,285
know. And probably you can fire simulations

351
00:13:45,985 --> 00:13:47,764
using Qiskit and other softwares.

352
00:13:48,144 --> 00:13:50,225
But those are more about trying out certain

353
00:13:50,225 --> 00:13:51,125
quantum algorithms.

354
00:13:51,985 --> 00:13:54,065
And some people can, you know, run a

355
00:13:54,065 --> 00:13:55,379
search algorithm or

356
00:13:55,779 --> 00:13:58,019
one of these famous six algorithms are there,

357
00:13:58,019 --> 00:13:59,080
four or five algorithms.

358
00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:01,860
You could try out those algorithms on quantum

359
00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:04,100
computers. That's what at the back end. So

360
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:05,879
that's probably what I think

361
00:14:06,259 --> 00:14:07,000
is there

362
00:14:07,379 --> 00:14:08,519
out is out there.

363
00:14:08,865 --> 00:14:11,105
I'm not sure if we have done anything

364
00:14:11,105 --> 00:14:13,424
on those fronts because we directly simulate the

365
00:14:13,424 --> 00:14:14,725
physics of the devices.

366
00:14:15,184 --> 00:14:16,085
So for instance,

367
00:14:16,784 --> 00:14:18,865
the main let's say I would call the

368
00:14:18,865 --> 00:14:21,445
protagonist of all these stories is the electrons

369
00:14:21,504 --> 00:14:24,329
for us. Electrons are the subatomic particles that

370
00:14:24,329 --> 00:14:26,649
carry electric current. Right? The reason you have

371
00:14:26,649 --> 00:14:28,329
electricity is electrons. The reason you have a

372
00:14:28,329 --> 00:14:29,870
computer eventually is electrons.

373
00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:33,450
And, so the quantum devices some of the

374
00:14:33,450 --> 00:14:36,029
quantum devices that could form quantum computers

375
00:14:36,394 --> 00:14:38,894
or what's called solid state quantum computers

376
00:14:39,514 --> 00:14:40,014
would

377
00:14:40,475 --> 00:14:43,455
depend on electrons. So we simulate and understand

378
00:14:43,674 --> 00:14:44,174
electron

379
00:14:44,955 --> 00:14:48,095
motion or electron transport across these devices.

380
00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:49,534
And that's precisely

381
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,459
what we use mathematical models to simulate.

382
00:14:53,079 --> 00:14:55,480
And that at that level, we probably don't

383
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:56,779
need a quantum computer

384
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,879
to understand or speed up our algorithms. We'd

385
00:14:59,879 --> 00:15:02,759
rather use standard GPU type, you know, speed

386
00:15:02,759 --> 00:15:05,304
ups, which are good enough. Yeah.

387
00:15:05,684 --> 00:15:09,144
I see. Okay. And and this year, 2025,

388
00:15:09,204 --> 00:15:10,264
is the international

389
00:15:10,644 --> 00:15:11,144
year

390
00:15:11,524 --> 00:15:12,264
of quantum.

391
00:15:12,964 --> 00:15:14,345
And what we're doing here

392
00:15:14,725 --> 00:15:16,964
at Physics World is we're asking as many

393
00:15:16,964 --> 00:15:18,584
physicists as we can,

394
00:15:19,409 --> 00:15:20,309
one question.

395
00:15:21,490 --> 00:15:22,950
And that question is,

396
00:15:23,330 --> 00:15:25,830
what does quantum physics mean to you?

397
00:15:28,210 --> 00:15:28,710
Well,

398
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:29,990
I have been

399
00:15:31,250 --> 00:15:32,309
studying quantum

400
00:15:33,009 --> 00:15:33,669
in devices

401
00:15:34,315 --> 00:15:35,774
since 02/2003.

402
00:15:36,235 --> 00:15:37,934
So much before the quantum,

403
00:15:39,355 --> 00:15:39,855
technology

404
00:15:41,195 --> 00:15:42,174
impeded started.

405
00:15:42,794 --> 00:15:44,014
So in that sense,

406
00:15:44,315 --> 00:15:46,475
I am an electrical engineer to begin with.

407
00:15:46,475 --> 00:15:46,975
And

408
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,379
when I started my PhD,

409
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,320
the the corridors of my depart of the

410
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,820
region I was working on was always resonating

411
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:55,620
with Hamiltonian,

412
00:15:56,639 --> 00:15:57,139
Quantum.

413
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,360
And I got used to that. So Quantum

414
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,205
means everything to me. And I believe,

415
00:16:02,825 --> 00:16:03,325
the

416
00:16:03,945 --> 00:16:06,845
quantum revolution, if it happens, can be

417
00:16:07,384 --> 00:16:07,884
disruptive.

418
00:16:08,585 --> 00:16:11,945
And I'm really hoping that quantum technologies take

419
00:16:11,945 --> 00:16:12,445
up.

420
00:16:12,839 --> 00:16:15,659
I'm not sure if only computing is the

421
00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:19,019
thing. Computing will definitely speed up certain algorithms,

422
00:16:19,079 --> 00:16:19,819
no doubt.

423
00:16:20,199 --> 00:16:21,019
But I think

424
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,440
surrounding quantum computing is a bunch of quantum

425
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:25,339
enhanced technologies,

426
00:16:26,274 --> 00:16:27,715
sensing, as well as,

427
00:16:29,075 --> 00:16:29,575
communications

428
00:16:30,034 --> 00:16:33,254
and various other aspects of surrounding quantum.

429
00:16:33,634 --> 00:16:36,115
I'm sure if all this come together, we

430
00:16:36,115 --> 00:16:37,254
should have a great

431
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,959
by twenty forties and early twenty fifties, next

432
00:16:40,959 --> 00:16:42,959
century. Sorry. The the second half of the

433
00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:44,959
century can be, I mean, can be a

434
00:16:44,959 --> 00:16:45,779
very disruptive,

435
00:16:46,959 --> 00:16:48,259
technology for humankind.

436
00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:50,100
So quantum is

437
00:16:50,639 --> 00:16:52,820
means everything to me at least. Yeah.

438
00:16:53,404 --> 00:16:55,085
Well, that's great. Thanks. Thanks so much for

439
00:16:55,085 --> 00:16:56,865
coming on the podcast. Thank you.

440
00:16:57,165 --> 00:16:58,705
It was my pleasure. Thank you.

441
00:17:06,619 --> 00:17:07,840
That was Bhaskaran

442
00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:08,880
Muralidharan

443
00:17:09,820 --> 00:17:12,480
of the Indian Institute of Technology,

444
00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:13,440
Bombay.

445
00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:16,960
He's on the editorial board of the journal

446
00:17:17,340 --> 00:17:17,840
Materials

447
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:19,680
for Quantum Technology.

448
00:17:20,644 --> 00:17:23,065
It's published by IOP Publishing,

449
00:17:23,524 --> 00:17:26,345
which also brings you Physics World.

450
00:17:27,284 --> 00:17:27,784
Now

451
00:17:28,085 --> 00:17:30,184
moving on to medical physics.

452
00:17:30,804 --> 00:17:33,865
The second segment of this podcast episode

453
00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:37,390
features an interview with the medical ultrasound

454
00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:38,350
expert,

455
00:17:38,730 --> 00:17:39,789
Daniel Sarno,

456
00:17:40,330 --> 00:17:42,190
who is based at The UK's

457
00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:44,269
National Physical Laboratory.

458
00:17:45,210 --> 00:17:46,670
Here he is in conversation

459
00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:49,470
with Physics World's Tammy Freeman.

460
00:17:50,414 --> 00:17:53,134
They look at the role that ultrasound can

461
00:17:53,134 --> 00:17:54,674
play in diagnosing

462
00:17:55,215 --> 00:17:56,035
breast cancer.

463
00:18:04,369 --> 00:18:07,330
Mammography is an effective tool for detecting breast

464
00:18:07,330 --> 00:18:10,070
cancer, and it's widely used in screening programs.

465
00:18:10,690 --> 00:18:11,509
But mammography

466
00:18:11,809 --> 00:18:14,450
exposes patients to X-ray radiation, and it doesn't

467
00:18:14,450 --> 00:18:16,529
work well in dense tissue, which can hide

468
00:18:16,529 --> 00:18:17,910
the presence of a tumor.

469
00:18:19,035 --> 00:18:21,695
Researchers at The UK's National Physical Laboratory

470
00:18:22,234 --> 00:18:25,035
have developed an ultrasound based system that can

471
00:18:25,035 --> 00:18:28,174
provide safe, low cost breast density assessment,

472
00:18:28,634 --> 00:18:30,634
and NPL is now looking to spin out

473
00:18:30,634 --> 00:18:33,674
a company, Sona, to bring this technology to

474
00:18:33,674 --> 00:18:34,174
market.

475
00:18:34,829 --> 00:18:36,849
I'm speaking today with Daniel Sarno,

476
00:18:37,230 --> 00:18:40,589
Sona's cofounder and chief technology officer. Welcome to

477
00:18:40,589 --> 00:18:41,730
the podcast, Daniel.

478
00:18:42,349 --> 00:18:43,730
Hi. Thanks for having me.

479
00:18:44,429 --> 00:18:47,069
So can we start by looking at what

480
00:18:47,069 --> 00:18:47,809
are the limitations

481
00:18:48,190 --> 00:18:49,409
of current mammography

482
00:18:49,710 --> 00:18:51,164
based cancer screening?

483
00:18:52,265 --> 00:18:53,325
Screening in general

484
00:18:53,625 --> 00:18:55,944
as a, as a tool used by health

485
00:18:55,944 --> 00:18:56,605
care systems

486
00:18:57,144 --> 00:18:58,444
aims at detecting

487
00:18:59,305 --> 00:19:03,005
early signs of cancer in mostly asymptomatic populations.

488
00:19:03,785 --> 00:19:05,849
So breast cancer screening, for instance,

489
00:19:06,329 --> 00:19:08,269
in The UK, at least is

490
00:19:08,650 --> 00:19:11,450
offered for women aged 50 onwards every three

491
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:11,950
years.

492
00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:13,950
And the

493
00:19:14,410 --> 00:19:15,929
the reason why we do this is that

494
00:19:15,929 --> 00:19:17,849
the breast cancer is the most common cause

495
00:19:17,849 --> 00:19:18,750
of cancer,

496
00:19:19,289 --> 00:19:19,789
in

497
00:19:20,089 --> 00:19:20,990
women worldwide.

498
00:19:21,744 --> 00:19:22,244
There's

499
00:19:22,625 --> 00:19:24,865
over three point three million new cases each

500
00:19:24,865 --> 00:19:25,365
year.

501
00:19:25,825 --> 00:19:27,904
And in The UK, there are about fifty

502
00:19:27,904 --> 00:19:28,884
seven thousand

503
00:19:29,424 --> 00:19:31,525
new cases with increasing rates

504
00:19:31,904 --> 00:19:33,284
mainly in younger women.

505
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:36,549
Now the reason why we do screening is

506
00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:37,769
that we want to detect

507
00:19:38,309 --> 00:19:39,690
breast cancer earlier.

508
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:42,309
If we detect breast cancer earlier, particularly at

509
00:19:42,309 --> 00:19:42,809
stage

510
00:19:43,109 --> 00:19:45,210
one, so when cancers are localized,

511
00:19:45,910 --> 00:19:48,464
survival rates are near a hundred percent is

512
00:19:48,784 --> 00:19:50,565
incredibly survivable cancer.

513
00:19:52,144 --> 00:19:54,804
Issue is when cancers are dissected much later

514
00:19:55,265 --> 00:19:56,005
in stages

515
00:19:56,384 --> 00:19:56,784
four

516
00:19:57,265 --> 00:20:00,244
in predominantly stage four where cancers have metastasized

517
00:20:00,464 --> 00:20:02,190
and gone to multiple sites,

518
00:20:03,149 --> 00:20:05,549
where survival rates then dropped sadly to as

519
00:20:05,549 --> 00:20:06,929
low as twenty two percent,

520
00:20:07,629 --> 00:20:08,609
in some countries.

521
00:20:09,789 --> 00:20:12,369
So screening aims to find cancer

522
00:20:12,829 --> 00:20:14,204
earlier when it's more treatable.

523
00:20:15,644 --> 00:20:17,565
Treatable. And like I said, for most women,

524
00:20:17,565 --> 00:20:18,384
it's offered

525
00:20:19,005 --> 00:20:20,924
at either 40 or 50 depending on what

526
00:20:20,924 --> 00:20:22,144
country you live in.

527
00:20:24,284 --> 00:20:27,599
With the main tool that's used is, mammography.

528
00:20:27,819 --> 00:20:30,799
So mammography is a X-ray based

529
00:20:31,099 --> 00:20:31,599
imaging

530
00:20:32,059 --> 00:20:32,559
system.

531
00:20:33,819 --> 00:20:34,319
Most

532
00:20:34,619 --> 00:20:35,119
notably,

533
00:20:35,980 --> 00:20:37,659
requires compression of the brass, which is sort

534
00:20:37,659 --> 00:20:39,259
of what most people think of when they

535
00:20:39,259 --> 00:20:40,079
think of mammography.

536
00:20:41,154 --> 00:20:43,174
The issue actually is that

537
00:20:43,555 --> 00:20:45,095
different breasts have different

538
00:20:45,394 --> 00:20:45,894
compositions.

539
00:20:46,434 --> 00:20:47,575
Some women have

540
00:20:48,035 --> 00:20:50,674
higher amount of fibro glandular tissue in the

541
00:20:50,674 --> 00:20:53,414
breast. Some women have more fatty breast tissue.

542
00:20:54,035 --> 00:20:55,279
But mammography

543
00:20:55,740 --> 00:20:56,240
performance

544
00:20:57,259 --> 00:20:59,440
really depends on breast composition.

545
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,059
Women with the highest density of breast, that's

546
00:21:02,059 --> 00:21:04,160
to say, women with mostly

547
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:06,000
fibro glandular tissue,

548
00:21:07,259 --> 00:21:08,559
the performance of mammography

549
00:21:09,019 --> 00:21:09,519
diminishes

550
00:21:09,944 --> 00:21:10,444
drastically.

551
00:21:11,544 --> 00:21:13,724
For women with batty breast tissue,

552
00:21:14,744 --> 00:21:17,304
mammography the sensitivity of mammography, which is sort

553
00:21:17,304 --> 00:21:17,964
of the

554
00:21:18,424 --> 00:21:20,345
the metric by which you can assess the

555
00:21:20,345 --> 00:21:22,505
performance of this tool, is as high as

556
00:21:22,505 --> 00:21:23,724
ninety percent. So

557
00:21:24,660 --> 00:21:26,420
most of the cancers that are present in

558
00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:29,460
women with the lowest density breast tissue are

559
00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:30,519
picked up by mammography.

560
00:21:31,299 --> 00:21:34,359
For women with, highest breast density categories,

561
00:21:34,980 --> 00:21:37,775
the performance of mammography drops to as low

562
00:21:37,775 --> 00:21:38,914
as 50%

563
00:21:39,454 --> 00:21:39,954
sensitivity.

564
00:21:40,575 --> 00:21:42,355
That's to say, if a cancer is present,

565
00:21:42,654 --> 00:21:44,335
almost half of the time, it will be

566
00:21:44,335 --> 00:21:44,835
missed.

567
00:21:45,214 --> 00:21:45,954
But the

568
00:21:46,414 --> 00:21:49,519
onset con consequence of that being that cancer

569
00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:50,740
is picked up later

570
00:21:51,519 --> 00:21:53,619
or in a kind of a subsequent screening

571
00:21:53,839 --> 00:21:54,339
opportunity.

572
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:55,940
Now

573
00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:59,200
this limitation of mammography has been known for

574
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,099
a long time,

575
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,595
but it mammography still remains the best tool

576
00:22:04,595 --> 00:22:07,255
we have. It's the gold standard tool for

577
00:22:07,555 --> 00:22:09,095
breast cancer screening.

578
00:22:09,555 --> 00:22:11,795
But there are other tools out there, other

579
00:22:11,795 --> 00:22:13,654
modalities for breast cancer screening.

580
00:22:14,515 --> 00:22:16,410
Some of them being ultrasound based.

581
00:22:16,890 --> 00:22:18,730
There is MRI, which is,

582
00:22:19,369 --> 00:22:20,590
obviously, a very costly

583
00:22:20,970 --> 00:22:21,630
but effective

584
00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:22,990
tool.

585
00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:26,349
There's other there's different types of mammography, such

586
00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:27,549
as, tomosynthesis,

587
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:30,170
a a a version of mammography that's sort

588
00:22:30,170 --> 00:22:32,575
of this pseudo three d imaging,

589
00:22:33,434 --> 00:22:36,494
and contrast enhanced mammography. So there's a plethora

590
00:22:36,555 --> 00:22:37,934
of tools beyond mammography

591
00:22:38,634 --> 00:22:39,455
that can be,

592
00:22:39,835 --> 00:22:42,555
used as screening for women with different breast

593
00:22:42,555 --> 00:22:43,055
densities.

594
00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:44,789
Okay. So,

595
00:22:45,429 --> 00:22:48,710
Sona is developing the ultrasound based approach. So

596
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:51,769
what what are the advantage advantages of ultrasound

597
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:53,690
scans over X-ray imaging?

598
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:57,509
Yeah. So what we're doing at Sona is

599
00:22:57,509 --> 00:22:58,169
we're actually

600
00:22:59,795 --> 00:23:02,295
providing a tool or developing a tool

601
00:23:02,835 --> 00:23:05,654
that can do breast density assessment. So this

602
00:23:06,275 --> 00:23:08,994
is not breast cancer screening. So we're we're

603
00:23:08,994 --> 00:23:11,734
not trying to do the job of mammography

604
00:23:11,955 --> 00:23:13,049
in trying to detect

605
00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:15,230
cancers at the earliest,

606
00:23:16,730 --> 00:23:17,230
stages.

607
00:23:17,690 --> 00:23:19,390
Instead, we're trying to measure

608
00:23:19,930 --> 00:23:20,430
global,

609
00:23:21,210 --> 00:23:22,990
metrics of breast composition

610
00:23:23,769 --> 00:23:26,170
such that women can be provided with the

611
00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:28,855
right forms of breast cancer screening at the

612
00:23:28,855 --> 00:23:31,095
right time for them based off their breast

613
00:23:31,095 --> 00:23:31,595
composition.

614
00:23:32,934 --> 00:23:34,795
And some of the advantages of,

615
00:23:35,575 --> 00:23:38,075
of ultrasound over X-ray imaging

616
00:23:38,535 --> 00:23:40,420
is that, of course, the kind of natural

617
00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:41,619
one that I think most people would think

618
00:23:41,619 --> 00:23:44,200
of is the X-ray imaging is a ionizing

619
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:46,279
based imaging tool.

620
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:50,580
This limits its use both in kind of

621
00:23:50,580 --> 00:23:51,640
setting that these,

622
00:23:52,259 --> 00:23:54,119
mammogram scans can be provided,

623
00:23:54,464 --> 00:23:56,644
but also the frequency with which

624
00:23:57,025 --> 00:23:58,884
mammogram imaging can be provided.

625
00:24:00,625 --> 00:24:01,525
But ultrasound,

626
00:24:02,065 --> 00:24:04,644
in contrast, is a safe tool.

627
00:24:05,025 --> 00:24:06,005
It's non ionizing.

628
00:24:06,865 --> 00:24:08,085
It's, accessible

629
00:24:08,464 --> 00:24:09,204
and portable.

630
00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:12,220
It's actually it's the second most commonly used

631
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,220
imaging modality worldwide.

632
00:24:14,919 --> 00:24:16,859
So it's very pervasive for that reason.

633
00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:20,679
Okay. And can you explain how your system

634
00:24:20,679 --> 00:24:23,579
actually uses the ultrasound to measure tissue density?

635
00:24:25,214 --> 00:24:27,474
Tissue density, breast density in particular,

636
00:24:30,095 --> 00:24:33,694
to repeat, is important for to understand for

637
00:24:33,694 --> 00:24:34,674
two reasons.

638
00:24:35,775 --> 00:24:36,275
Firstly,

639
00:24:37,375 --> 00:24:38,835
breast high breast density

640
00:24:39,134 --> 00:24:40,115
actually increases

641
00:24:40,650 --> 00:24:43,609
cancer risk. Seventy percent of all cancers are

642
00:24:43,609 --> 00:24:46,109
detected in women with dense breasts.

643
00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:48,109
Now how pervasive

644
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:49,950
is is breast density?

645
00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:51,070
Well, about

646
00:24:51,690 --> 00:24:53,609
half of all women over the age of

647
00:24:53,609 --> 00:24:55,630
40 have dense breasts. It it varies

648
00:24:56,255 --> 00:24:59,154
from individual to individual and varies with age,

649
00:24:59,294 --> 00:25:01,315
but about half of all women have

650
00:25:01,694 --> 00:25:02,674
high breast density.

651
00:25:03,694 --> 00:25:06,014
It increases cancer risk, so women with the

652
00:25:06,014 --> 00:25:07,794
highest category of breast density

653
00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:10,190
can be up to six times more likely

654
00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:12,269
to develop breast cancer than women with the

655
00:25:12,269 --> 00:25:13,809
lowest category of breast density.

656
00:25:14,589 --> 00:25:17,069
But just to repeat, the the other impacts

657
00:25:17,069 --> 00:25:19,710
of high breast density is this this effect

658
00:25:19,710 --> 00:25:22,349
that it has in reducing the performance of

659
00:25:22,349 --> 00:25:26,105
mammography. So high breast density can mask answers

660
00:25:26,105 --> 00:25:27,164
on screening mammograms

661
00:25:27,625 --> 00:25:28,924
and reduces performance.

662
00:25:30,265 --> 00:25:31,964
Breastness is currently assessed

663
00:25:33,545 --> 00:25:36,445
at screen at the screening opportunity using mammogram

664
00:25:36,505 --> 00:25:39,400
images. So a mammogram image will be,

665
00:25:39,940 --> 00:25:42,500
taken of an individual going through screening. That

666
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:44,759
mammogram image can be used

667
00:25:45,299 --> 00:25:48,019
to find any cancers present in the breast

668
00:25:48,019 --> 00:25:48,519
tissue.

669
00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:50,994
But, also, the image can be looked at

670
00:25:50,994 --> 00:25:54,055
globally by either a clinician or software interpretation

671
00:25:54,994 --> 00:25:55,654
to see

672
00:25:56,355 --> 00:25:57,255
by either

673
00:25:57,555 --> 00:25:59,894
visually by eye or or by using algorithms

674
00:26:00,595 --> 00:26:02,914
the ratio of fat to fibroblegial tissue and

675
00:26:02,914 --> 00:26:05,015
give a metric for breast density.

676
00:26:06,130 --> 00:26:06,450
That's

677
00:26:07,089 --> 00:26:07,829
it has

678
00:26:08,130 --> 00:26:08,630
proven

679
00:26:09,009 --> 00:26:09,509
incredibly

680
00:26:09,809 --> 00:26:10,309
useful.

681
00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:13,589
In fact, the US FDA

682
00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:18,865
recently changed their reporting guidelines for women across

683
00:26:18,865 --> 00:26:21,525
The US to mandate breast density assessment,

684
00:26:22,305 --> 00:26:23,525
across all states,

685
00:26:24,545 --> 00:26:27,265
such that, you know, it it's it's considered

686
00:26:27,265 --> 00:26:29,924
such a an important factor to measure that

687
00:26:30,065 --> 00:26:32,244
The US actually have mandated this reporting.

688
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:36,070
So the issue with mammogram based breast density

689
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:36,570
assessment

690
00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:41,210
is that it actually is not particularly consistent.

691
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:43,610
Studies have found that

692
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:46,330
breast density assessment done by clinicians

693
00:26:47,075 --> 00:26:49,954
varies depending on which clinician you have. It

694
00:26:49,954 --> 00:26:53,174
varies from screening opportunity to screening opportunity.

695
00:26:54,275 --> 00:26:55,815
And also breast density assessment

696
00:26:56,194 --> 00:26:58,994
with mammography is not accessible. So at the

697
00:26:58,994 --> 00:27:01,349
moment, you only find out if you have

698
00:27:01,650 --> 00:27:02,630
high breast density

699
00:27:03,089 --> 00:27:04,789
at your first screening opportunity.

700
00:27:06,529 --> 00:27:08,929
Now coming from the National Physical Laboratory, we

701
00:27:08,929 --> 00:27:11,190
see that this is a a measurement challenge.

702
00:27:11,835 --> 00:27:13,534
And being an ultrasound scientist

703
00:27:14,234 --> 00:27:16,875
and believing that ultrasound is a particularly useful

704
00:27:16,875 --> 00:27:18,174
technology to use,

705
00:27:18,875 --> 00:27:20,954
we believe that we can do breast density

706
00:27:20,954 --> 00:27:21,454
assessment

707
00:27:21,755 --> 00:27:23,214
using ultrasound measurement.

708
00:27:23,595 --> 00:27:26,210
Now how it works is we do something

709
00:27:26,210 --> 00:27:29,970
known as, global acoustic attenuation measurements of the

710
00:27:29,970 --> 00:27:30,470
breast.

711
00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:34,049
That's to say, how much does the breast

712
00:27:34,049 --> 00:27:34,549
tissue

713
00:27:34,849 --> 00:27:35,349
diminish

714
00:27:36,129 --> 00:27:38,529
their ultrasound signals as they pass through the

715
00:27:38,529 --> 00:27:38,924
breast?

716
00:27:39,884 --> 00:27:42,865
With women with higher breast density having

717
00:27:43,164 --> 00:27:43,664
higher

718
00:27:43,965 --> 00:27:44,945
acoustic attenuation,

719
00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:49,325
properties of the breast tissue compared to women

720
00:27:49,325 --> 00:27:51,025
with lower breast density.

721
00:27:52,285 --> 00:27:53,940
So our system was

722
00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:56,500
developed at the National Physical Laboratory over a

723
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:57,879
number of years. We've developed

724
00:27:58,259 --> 00:28:01,240
a new form of ultrasound sensor to

725
00:28:01,859 --> 00:28:03,240
measure this property

726
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:05,319
in a quantitative way.

727
00:28:06,019 --> 00:28:08,704
And what that actually unlocks is the ability

728
00:28:08,765 --> 00:28:09,265
to,

729
00:28:09,644 --> 00:28:10,944
a, measure

730
00:28:11,404 --> 00:28:12,144
breast density,

731
00:28:12,525 --> 00:28:14,464
in a repeatable, consistent way.

732
00:28:15,484 --> 00:28:15,984
But,

733
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:19,804
b, you're actually able to now monitor breast

734
00:28:19,804 --> 00:28:20,304
density

735
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:21,940
over time

736
00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:23,059
with,

737
00:28:24,079 --> 00:28:26,160
so rather than just a a single measurement

738
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,059
of breast density,

739
00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:28,900
you're now able to

740
00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:30,900
do repeat measurements,

741
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:33,140
which have been found

742
00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:36,605
to also relate to breast cancer risk. Women

743
00:28:36,605 --> 00:28:39,244
who whose breast density does not drop as

744
00:28:39,244 --> 00:28:40,144
fast as

745
00:28:40,445 --> 00:28:42,945
you might expect in, across the population

746
00:28:43,325 --> 00:28:45,644
have actually a higher rate of breast cancer

747
00:28:45,644 --> 00:28:46,945
than women who've not.

748
00:28:48,009 --> 00:28:50,089
Okay. So, you could use your system to

749
00:28:50,089 --> 00:28:52,730
sort of track the differences in density over

750
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:53,230
time,

751
00:28:53,769 --> 00:28:54,269
possibly

752
00:28:54,809 --> 00:28:57,470
starting at a younger age for the screening,

753
00:28:57,529 --> 00:28:58,589
and then you can

754
00:28:58,890 --> 00:29:00,375
interpret those results. And then,

755
00:29:00,934 --> 00:29:03,174
if it looks like someone's more at risk,

756
00:29:03,174 --> 00:29:05,194
would they then be sent on for mammography

757
00:29:05,335 --> 00:29:06,315
screening afterwards?

758
00:29:08,214 --> 00:29:10,234
Exactly. Yeah. So we

759
00:29:10,615 --> 00:29:11,914
we believe that

760
00:29:12,454 --> 00:29:15,275
what's needed for breast cancer screening

761
00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:16,299
is

762
00:29:16,759 --> 00:29:17,259
early

763
00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:19,500
breast cancer risk assessment.

764
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,279
At the moment, we can do breast cancer

765
00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:23,019
risk assessment

766
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,660
using factors such as history

767
00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:27,740
or even genetics.

768
00:29:28,715 --> 00:29:31,115
But breast density, because at the moment, it's

769
00:29:31,115 --> 00:29:31,615
done

770
00:29:31,914 --> 00:29:33,295
with mammogram based,

771
00:29:34,955 --> 00:29:35,455
imaging,

772
00:29:36,234 --> 00:29:38,414
cannot be done at an earlier age.

773
00:29:39,035 --> 00:29:39,535
So

774
00:29:40,315 --> 00:29:41,375
with our technology,

775
00:29:41,835 --> 00:29:44,080
you could bring breast density assessment

776
00:29:44,619 --> 00:29:45,119
before

777
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:45,920
screening

778
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:47,920
such that you can then

779
00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:52,460
plan an onward personalized screening program that's fit

780
00:29:52,460 --> 00:29:55,820
for the individual rather than just using age

781
00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:56,320
based,

782
00:29:57,099 --> 00:29:58,240
screening profiles.

783
00:29:59,865 --> 00:30:01,305
So, I mean, where would you see these

784
00:30:01,305 --> 00:30:03,785
systems being deployed? Would this be something perhaps

785
00:30:03,785 --> 00:30:05,705
that you're just local doctors that it would

786
00:30:05,705 --> 00:30:07,465
be just sort of part of a a

787
00:30:07,465 --> 00:30:10,265
routine test that women would undergo? Like, whilst

788
00:30:10,265 --> 00:30:12,025
they're too young to actually go into the

789
00:30:12,025 --> 00:30:13,005
screening program,

790
00:30:13,910 --> 00:30:14,789
They they could have this,

791
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:17,289
measurement taken beforehand.

792
00:30:19,349 --> 00:30:21,289
Yeah. So the the technology that we're developing

793
00:30:21,429 --> 00:30:21,929
is

794
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:24,970
is incredibly accessible. Like I said, it uses

795
00:30:25,109 --> 00:30:27,734
ultrasound, so it doesn't require a dedicated

796
00:30:28,434 --> 00:30:28,934
facility.

797
00:30:30,514 --> 00:30:31,014
It's

798
00:30:31,634 --> 00:30:34,674
aimed to be a desktop sized device, so

799
00:30:34,674 --> 00:30:35,174
small.

800
00:30:36,274 --> 00:30:36,774
And

801
00:30:37,234 --> 00:30:38,615
that opens up the possibility

802
00:30:39,154 --> 00:30:40,375
of screening.

803
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:41,109
Of

804
00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:43,049
sorry. Breast density assessment

805
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:45,690
being much more accessible

806
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:47,529
than it currently is.

807
00:30:48,390 --> 00:30:50,149
So we aim to have these devices in

808
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:51,289
primary care clinics,

809
00:30:52,069 --> 00:30:52,569
in,

810
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:54,649
breast cancer screening programs,

811
00:30:55,829 --> 00:30:56,329
in

812
00:30:56,744 --> 00:30:58,845
remote or low resource areas,

813
00:30:59,224 --> 00:31:01,565
and also a part of work workplace

814
00:31:02,025 --> 00:31:03,644
and community health initiatives.

815
00:31:04,664 --> 00:31:05,384
Okay. So,

816
00:31:06,025 --> 00:31:08,525
has the system been tested in patients yet?

817
00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:12,190
It has. The the the the system and

818
00:31:12,190 --> 00:31:13,730
technology actually has

819
00:31:14,029 --> 00:31:14,849
quite a,

820
00:31:15,470 --> 00:31:16,289
long lineage.

821
00:31:16,910 --> 00:31:17,410
Originally,

822
00:31:17,789 --> 00:31:20,690
as I described, we've developed new sensor technology,

823
00:31:21,390 --> 00:31:23,390
a number of years ago, and we've gone

824
00:31:23,734 --> 00:31:26,555
We've evolved from early proof of concept sensors

825
00:31:27,015 --> 00:31:28,634
through to research platforms

826
00:31:29,174 --> 00:31:29,914
and, initially,

827
00:31:30,375 --> 00:31:34,775
measurement validation in in acoustic materials and breast

828
00:31:34,775 --> 00:31:35,275
phantoms.

829
00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:38,850
A couple years ago, we actually did our

830
00:31:38,850 --> 00:31:40,070
first in person testing

831
00:31:40,529 --> 00:31:41,910
to validate these measurements,

832
00:31:42,850 --> 00:31:44,549
in a few people.

833
00:31:45,809 --> 00:31:48,230
At the moment, we're being supported by the

834
00:31:48,769 --> 00:31:51,029
government office for technology

835
00:31:51,330 --> 00:31:51,830
transfer

836
00:31:52,535 --> 00:31:55,255
and also by the UK Innovation and Science

837
00:31:55,255 --> 00:31:56,075
Seed Fund.

838
00:31:56,535 --> 00:31:59,595
And we're developing a proof of concept

839
00:31:59,894 --> 00:32:00,394
prototype

840
00:32:01,095 --> 00:32:02,075
that will initially

841
00:32:02,454 --> 00:32:03,595
conduct preclinical

842
00:32:03,894 --> 00:32:04,394
testing

843
00:32:04,750 --> 00:32:07,250
and later further in person testing.

844
00:32:07,710 --> 00:32:09,309
And the aim of this system really is

845
00:32:09,309 --> 00:32:11,309
to go from what we've had before, which

846
00:32:11,309 --> 00:32:13,409
is a series of research platforms,

847
00:32:13,950 --> 00:32:16,829
something that's much closer to a clinical ready

848
00:32:16,829 --> 00:32:18,224
device in a,

849
00:32:18,865 --> 00:32:21,424
in a configuration where we could do accessible

850
00:32:21,424 --> 00:32:24,724
breast density assessment using through transmission ultrasound.

851
00:32:26,545 --> 00:32:27,445
Okay. And

852
00:32:28,224 --> 00:32:30,785
so this this company, Sonar, is being set

853
00:32:30,785 --> 00:32:33,859
up basically to bring this technology to the

854
00:32:33,859 --> 00:32:35,159
market. I mean,

855
00:32:35,539 --> 00:32:37,139
can you just sort of quickly update on

856
00:32:37,139 --> 00:32:38,039
how that's progressing?

857
00:32:38,419 --> 00:32:40,339
How long do you think it might take

858
00:32:40,339 --> 00:32:43,000
until the these systems are actually ready for

859
00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:44,279
clinical use?

860
00:32:45,779 --> 00:32:47,319
Yeah. So we're we're we're

861
00:32:47,855 --> 00:32:50,674
we're making some great progress. We understand that

862
00:32:50,815 --> 00:32:51,875
it's very challenging

863
00:32:52,335 --> 00:32:53,875
to bring medical technology

864
00:32:54,335 --> 00:32:56,255
to the market, but we are up for

865
00:32:56,255 --> 00:32:56,914
the challenge.

866
00:32:58,174 --> 00:33:00,480
This sort of technology, we think, will be

867
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,599
able to be deployed in '27 2027

868
00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:04,799
or 2028.

869
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:06,980
That's what we're we're aiming for,

870
00:33:07,679 --> 00:33:10,079
with this year going through a series of

871
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:11,220
preclinical testing

872
00:33:11,839 --> 00:33:14,900
and next year into clinical trials and clinical

873
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,255
studies where we will compare our ultrasound based

874
00:33:18,394 --> 00:33:20,894
method for breast density assessment with,

875
00:33:21,515 --> 00:33:25,055
traditional mammogram based methods for breast density assessment.

876
00:33:25,994 --> 00:33:28,075
Now, yep, we know there's a lot of

877
00:33:28,075 --> 00:33:28,559
work,

878
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:31,620
today to get this to the market,

879
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,140
but, but we're not alone. So we've actually,

880
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,519
this year, brought on a great team of

881
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:41,860
experienced entrepreneurs and world leaders in ultrasound innovation

882
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,424
and product development,

883
00:33:44,205 --> 00:33:46,464
and importantly, breast radiologists as well.

884
00:33:47,244 --> 00:33:50,205
Excellent. Right. Well, thanks very much. It sounds

885
00:33:50,205 --> 00:33:51,904
like a really promising technology.

886
00:33:53,244 --> 00:33:55,744
And thank you for speaking with us today.

887
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:06,570
That was Daniel Sarno of NPL

888
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:07,769
and Sona

889
00:34:08,309 --> 00:34:09,050
in conversation

890
00:34:09,430 --> 00:34:11,530
with Physics World's Tammy Freeman.

891
00:34:12,494 --> 00:34:14,335
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

892
00:34:14,335 --> 00:34:15,554
for this week's podcast.

893
00:34:16,094 --> 00:34:17,234
Thanks to Bhaskaran,

894
00:34:17,775 --> 00:34:18,275
Muralidharan,

895
00:34:19,454 --> 00:34:20,514
Daniel Sarno,

896
00:34:20,815 --> 00:34:23,554
and Tammy Freeman for joining me today.

897
00:34:23,934 --> 00:34:26,494
And a special thanks to our producer, Fred

898
00:34:26,494 --> 00:34:26,994
Isles.

899
00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:30,250
We'll be back again next week. See you

900
00:34:30,250 --> 00:34:30,750
then.