Saying NO to Non-Promotable Work with No Club Author Laurie Weingart

<v Speaker 1>Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:10.200 <v Speaker 1>an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.480 <v Speaker 1>I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.800 <v Speaker 1>On the side, we are two working parents who love 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:19.320 <v Speaker 1>our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.400 <v Speaker 1>Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.800 <v Speaker 1>and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.360 <v Speaker 1>out long term career goals. We want you to get 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:34.040 <v Speaker 1>the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.160 <v Speaker 1>This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and seventy nine, 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.760 <v Speaker 1>first airing in early December of twenty twenty two. Sarah 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.199 <v Speaker 1>is going to be interviewing one of the authors of 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.280 <v Speaker 1>The No Club, which is a fascinating book about women 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.680 <v Speaker 1>letting go of non promotable tasks. You talk a little 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.720 <v Speaker 1>bit about that, Sarah. Yeah, this was a fascinating interview 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.280 <v Speaker 1>for me because I definitely felt like this book was 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.720 <v Speaker 1>written for me in not just me, but people like 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.320 <v Speaker 1>me as an audience. You know, not that I feel 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.360 <v Speaker 1>like I've had massive injustices put upon me or something 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.319 <v Speaker 1>like that, but I've actually been really interested recently to 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.280 <v Speaker 1>read some data about how female physicians tend to get 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:18.920 <v Speaker 1>more patient messages, more staff requests, and so I recognize 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:24.479 <v Speaker 1>that not only do we have more opportunities to potentially 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.360 <v Speaker 1>say yes or no, but as we've talked about in 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.200 <v Speaker 1>the interview, it can be a harsher kind of punishment 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.600 <v Speaker 1>if you do say no. So while that doesn't solve 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.280 <v Speaker 1>the problem, I do think learning about the reality of 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:37.680 <v Speaker 1>the world we live in is helpful so that we 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:41.600 <v Speaker 1>can see everything through a more understanding lens. And Lari 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.760 <v Speaker 1>Weingart was a fantastic person to talk to. She's a 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.560 <v Speaker 1>business school professor and just has a lot of insight. Yeah, 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:50.840 <v Speaker 1>so we're looking forward to sharing that with you in 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.120 <v Speaker 1>a few minutes. I think it's always good to be 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.520 <v Speaker 1>careful with our yeses and no to make those choices mindfully. 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.520 <v Speaker 1>And one of the things I've certainly found over the 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.680 <v Speaker 1>years that when people are thinking about saying yes or no, 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:06.200 <v Speaker 1>we're often more likely to say yes to things that 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.200 <v Speaker 1>are far in the future. And that's partly because we 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.720 <v Speaker 1>don't see what the opportunity cost will be in the future, 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.600 <v Speaker 1>Whereas you know somebody asks you to do something tomorrow, 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.040 <v Speaker 1>like you know what you're doing tomorrow, you know what 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.240 <v Speaker 1>tomorrow looks like, you know what the conditions are, and 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.880 <v Speaker 1>so you can more accurately judge like, oh is it 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:25.960 <v Speaker 1>you know, do I have the energy to do this? 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:27.920 <v Speaker 1>Do I have the resources to do this? Is this 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:31.920 <v Speaker 1>something I want to do? Whereas future you feels like 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:35.160 <v Speaker 1>this total blank slate and you know, April US calendar 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.560 <v Speaker 1>looks pretty open, and so they're like, hey, I could 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.919 <v Speaker 1>do this. So you know, I was just tell people 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.079 <v Speaker 1>to think like, would you do this tomorrow? Like, ask yourself, 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.360 <v Speaker 1>even if you're looking at April, May, June and it's December. Now, 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.240 <v Speaker 1>would you do this tomorrow? Would you be willing to 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.280 <v Speaker 1>move things around or cancel things tomorrow to fit this in? 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.040 <v Speaker 1>Because it's highly probable that life won't be perfect when 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.400 <v Speaker 1>your commitment to do this thing come do so you 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.280 <v Speaker 1>might consider that like, well, in the abstract, it sounds 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:08.160 <v Speaker 1>fine to travel to this special meeting somewhere else, but 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.360 <v Speaker 1>what if it turns out that you are patching to 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.840 <v Speaker 1>gather back up childcare on that week, or what if 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.640 <v Speaker 1>it turns out that one of your kids has this 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:18.919 <v Speaker 1>huge thing at school that you're going to want to 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.040 <v Speaker 1>be part of like are you still excited about doing 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.040 <v Speaker 1>this thing? And if you aren't, you'd be like, why 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.120 <v Speaker 1>am I doing this? Well, you know, then maybe that's 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.400 <v Speaker 1>a sign that you don't want to take this on now. Yes, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.280 <v Speaker 1>future you versus past you may not always agree, and 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.240 <v Speaker 1>you really want to try to get yourself as close 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.520 <v Speaker 1>to the mindset of future you as you can when 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.840 <v Speaker 1>you're making these decisions. But I can't wait to hear 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.320 <v Speaker 1>what she has to say about saying no to non 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.840 <v Speaker 1>promotable tasks. So let's go ahead and go to the interview. 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.000 <v Speaker 1>All right, Well, I am so excited to welcome Lorie Weingard, 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:52.880 <v Speaker 1>who is one of the authors of The No Club, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:54.600 <v Speaker 1>which we're going to talk about a whole bunch in 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.680 <v Speaker 1>the next segment here, and she is a professor at 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:01.000 <v Speaker 1>the Business School at Carnegie Mellon University. So hello, Laurie, 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.320 <v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Oh 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:07.160 <v Speaker 1>and thanks so much for having me awesome. I think 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.360 <v Speaker 1>you should start from the beginning because I loved reading 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.080 <v Speaker 1>the story about how the No Club came to be? 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:15.680 <v Speaker 1>Can you share that story, because I have to admit 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:20.080 <v Speaker 1>it sounded very familiar and close to home to me. Yeah. 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.760 <v Speaker 1>About twelve years ago or so, one of my friends, Linda, 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.320 <v Speaker 1>sent an email to me and a few of our 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.600 <v Speaker 1>other colleagues. We did not know each other, but she 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.120 <v Speaker 1>knew each of us, and she sent us an email 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.000 <v Speaker 1>saying that her work life was completely out of control, 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.080 <v Speaker 1>and she knew that we were all successful and assumed 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.520 <v Speaker 1>we were probably facing the same challenges. So she basically 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.200 <v Speaker 1>just sent us a doodle pole saying, let's get together. 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:48.120 <v Speaker 1>Here are sometimes I know you won't say no? And 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.640 <v Speaker 1>she called us from there, and then the I just 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:54.480 <v Speaker 1>can't say no club we started meeting regularly at this 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.919 <v Speaker 1>local restaurant over ten dollars bottles of wine. This was 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.960 <v Speaker 1>their lost leader started talking about all the challenges that 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:06.080 <v Speaker 1>we were facing in work, with situations where we wanted 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.800 <v Speaker 1>to say no but we felt we couldn't or we 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.760 <v Speaker 1>felt some pressure to say yes, either from ourselves or 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.520 <v Speaker 1>from other people, and what we could do to solve 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.920 <v Speaker 1>the problem, you know. And then over the next ten 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.839 <v Speaker 1>twelve years, we got much better at saying no. But 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.440 <v Speaker 1>also what we realized is it wasn't solving the problem. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.919 <v Speaker 1>We just kept getting asked and other women were getting asked. 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.720 <v Speaker 1>What we turned down, and so we really decided to 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.760 <v Speaker 1>do something about it. And there was this story I 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.400 <v Speaker 1>think about her walking past the desk of her colleague 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.640 <v Speaker 1>as she was running from meeting to meeting and noticing 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:46.560 <v Speaker 1>that he never moved. That was like very eye opening 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.560 <v Speaker 1>to me because I feel like I have had some 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.200 <v Speaker 1>days like that, and we're going to get in a 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.120 <v Speaker 1>little bit to how that can happen. But that was 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:58.000 <v Speaker 1>just so powerful. Yeah, right, And they actually compared their 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.760 <v Speaker 1>schedules to one another and look at the blocks of 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.560 <v Speaker 1>time even in a typical day, and Linda had all 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.440 <v Speaker 1>these meetings, committee meetings and mentoring she was doing outside 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.440 <v Speaker 1>of her regular job, which is teaching and research, where 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.640 <v Speaker 1>George had all this time to kind of sit and 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:15.760 <v Speaker 1>really do the deep thinking that was so important to 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.159 <v Speaker 1>the work of a professor. And that's what really clued 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.360 <v Speaker 1>her in that something was going on and she was 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:27.280 <v Speaker 1>literally running circles around him physically. Well, let's start by 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.599 <v Speaker 1>talking a little bit about non promotable tasks, which is 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.599 <v Speaker 1>something that the NO Club goes into depth about. So 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:35.800 <v Speaker 1>for those of us who aren't familiar with the concept, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:40.359 <v Speaker 1>what are non promotable tasks? Right? A non promotable task 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.400 <v Speaker 1>is something that you do at work that really matters 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:49.839 <v Speaker 1>to the organization but doesn't help your career. Very simple definitions. 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:51.480 <v Speaker 1>You think about all the things we do that aren't 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.000 <v Speaker 1>core parts of our jobs necessarily, but need to get 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.560 <v Speaker 1>done and somebody's got to do them. So when we 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.320 <v Speaker 1>talk to lots of different people about example, you know, 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.080 <v Speaker 1>we found a whole host of things that people talked about. 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.280 <v Speaker 1>They talked about all the things they do, you know, 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.000 <v Speaker 1>and that we do as women to help other people. 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:11.920 <v Speaker 1>We might fill in when they're unavailable or they have 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.560 <v Speaker 1>to pick up their kids. We may review the report 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.200 <v Speaker 1>that they're writing to make sure that there aren't any errors, 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.360 <v Speaker 1>or fix the slide deck, or you know, they're just 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.600 <v Speaker 1>all these extra things we do. It could be also 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.760 <v Speaker 1>things like serving on committees, like in my job, serve 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.800 <v Speaker 1>on so many committees, and everybody does some of these. 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.560 <v Speaker 1>But what we're finding is that these non promotable tasks, 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:36.880 <v Speaker 1>when they get to be too much, could become problematic. 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.760 <v Speaker 1>Think about recruiting activities or onboarding. I don't know if 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.040 <v Speaker 1>you have done any of that, or even the things 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.480 <v Speaker 1>we do to help our coworkers out in a pinch 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.840 <v Speaker 1>or to resolve conflict or be the listening ear. And 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.400 <v Speaker 1>then of course, you know there's the office housework, right, 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:55.239 <v Speaker 1>And this is the stuff that some people have written 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:59.040 <v Speaker 1>about where they talk about ordering lunch for meetings and 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:03.120 <v Speaker 1>taking notes or getting coffee all that extra stuff that 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:04.960 <v Speaker 1>women are more likely to do than men. But these 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.960 <v Speaker 1>are all non promotable tasks. I totally see that, and 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:14.480 <v Speaker 1>I am so curious because having been on the receiving 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.239 <v Speaker 1>end of a lot of these requests, and I always 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.680 <v Speaker 1>feel like it's well meaning and it always almost comes 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.880 <v Speaker 1>off as complimentary, like, Sarah, we know that you're so 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.840 <v Speaker 1>nice and you have your stuff together, so do you 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:29.600 <v Speaker 1>have time to interview this candidate or whatever? And does 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.680 <v Speaker 1>it happen more to well, I'm very interested, like, does 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.720 <v Speaker 1>it actually happen more to women? And then why is 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.920 <v Speaker 1>it just easier to ask the women? Are the women 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.760 <v Speaker 1>more likely to say yes? Is it that women are 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.480 <v Speaker 1>much like like, my hypothesis is that you can kind 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.520 <v Speaker 1>of get away with being like the curmudgeonly genius as 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.400 <v Speaker 1>a male much more easily than you can do that 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.880 <v Speaker 1>as a woman. But that's only gut feeling, like I 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.280 <v Speaker 1>don't have anything to actually back that up. Yeah, So 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.520 <v Speaker 1>we definitely wondered if it was just us or if 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.480 <v Speaker 1>other people, other women were in other organizations, were having 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.400 <v Speaker 1>the same experience and it just so happens. A lot 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.560 <v Speaker 1>of people have studied this issue in different domains and 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.599 <v Speaker 1>in different ways. But what we found it when we 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.440 <v Speaker 1>look to other people's research is that, you know, there 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.720 <v Speaker 1>were evidence in a whole host of professions there was 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.920 <v Speaker 1>and also cross industries. So we found evidence that women 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.560 <v Speaker 1>among attorneys were doing more non promotable work than their 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.559 <v Speaker 1>male colleagues. There was evidence from engineers, from high tech workers, 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.560 <v Speaker 1>a lot of you know, kind of white collar workers 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.200 <v Speaker 1>what we might call But also we found some really 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:39.240 <v Speaker 1>interesting studies that this was happening among in professions like 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.560 <v Speaker 1>grocery store clerks or TSA agents that also the women 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:49.880 <v Speaker 1>were being overburdened or pigeonholed into work that was not 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.560 <v Speaker 1>advancing their career, where the men had much many more 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:57.160 <v Speaker 1>opportunities to do things that help them advance. So we 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.520 <v Speaker 1>started saying, Okay, so this is happening. You know, at 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.760 <v Speaker 1>least people report that they're doing more of this than 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.320 <v Speaker 1>the other, but we wanted to know how big is 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.080 <v Speaker 1>the difference is this real ors is just what people perceive. 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.800 <v Speaker 1>So we actually did a study with consultants people in 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.400 <v Speaker 1>professional services firm and the nice thing about looking at 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.360 <v Speaker 1>them is these firms track billable and non billable hours, right, 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.880 <v Speaker 1>so they already have a baseline of you know, billable 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.160 <v Speaker 1>hours are more promotable because these firms track and promote 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.040 <v Speaker 1>based on what your billables are. But they also kept 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.000 <v Speaker 1>track of all the other work that people did in 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:35.840 <v Speaker 1>terms of helping with recruiting or mentor programs or off 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.040 <v Speaker 1>sites or whatever. They were able to start tracking what 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.440 <v Speaker 1>was promotable or not. And what they found was that 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.560 <v Speaker 1>the female consultants were spending about two hundred extra hours 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:50.160 <v Speaker 1>per year than their male counterparts doing non promotable work. 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.680 <v Speaker 1>That's a month of extra work that doesn't advance careers, right. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.480 <v Speaker 1>And imagine when you're spending your time doing that extra work, 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.079 <v Speaker 1>it's less time you have available to do the work 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.559 <v Speaker 1>that does advance your career, or you're just going to 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:07.960 <v Speaker 1>work over time to fit it all in. And we 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.800 <v Speaker 1>found evidence of both in our research. We found that 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.920 <v Speaker 1>the junior women who were doing all this extra work 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:19.000 <v Speaker 1>compared to their male counterparts, were actually doing less promotable 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.640 <v Speaker 1>work that we were making this trade off, whereas the 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.600 <v Speaker 1>female senior consultants, we're just working an extra month of time. Yes, 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.920 <v Speaker 1>it's so interesting. Yeah, right, So we really did find 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.520 <v Speaker 1>some hardcore evidence of that, and I wonder, you know, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.480 <v Speaker 1>not only would might that translate into promotion, but in 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:40.960 <v Speaker 1>some industries that might translate into bonus money. Like that's 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.040 <v Speaker 1>like actual you know, in the medical space, that would 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.839 <v Speaker 1>be like our views that aren't getting happening. And if 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.800 <v Speaker 1>your paycheck depends on your RVUS, which not everybody's does, 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:55.200 <v Speaker 1>but some people do, then that's actually like going to 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.880 <v Speaker 1>contribute to the pay gap, even though they're doing things 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.120 <v Speaker 1>that may be less pleasant than the view generating work 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.000 <v Speaker 1>that they're actually paid to do or the deep work 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.480 <v Speaker 1>that they're paid to do as researchers, and they're getting 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.719 <v Speaker 1>punished for it. Absolutely, And when we talk about promotability, 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.000 <v Speaker 1>really want to think broadly, you know, I want to 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.000 <v Speaker 1>hit that home, you hit it the nail on the head. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.559 <v Speaker 1>It's not just about getting a promotion, but it's all 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.920 <v Speaker 1>the things that you know advance you in your work life, 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:27.680 <v Speaker 1>which includes pay and recognition as well as advancement, which 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.440 <v Speaker 1>you know often goes hand in hand. Well, then is 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.480 <v Speaker 1>there research that looks at the why is it that 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.840 <v Speaker 1>they are asked more or is it they say yes 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:44.160 <v Speaker 1>more readily? We're both Interestingly, the answer is both, it's both. 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.880 <v Speaker 1>This was our question about, you know, once you figure 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:48.400 <v Speaker 1>out what's happening, then got to figure out why is 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.000 <v Speaker 1>it happening, what's driving it, because if you don't know 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.880 <v Speaker 1>what's driving it, then you can't fix the problem, or 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:56.760 <v Speaker 1>you're you're just like you know, throwing darts at a 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:58.200 <v Speaker 1>board and you're not knowing if you're going to hit 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.000 <v Speaker 1>it hit the target. So we did this experiment where 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.920 <v Speaker 1>we set it up so that women had the opportunity 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.040 <v Speaker 1>versus men, to be asked to do a non promotable task, 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.200 <v Speaker 1>to say yes or no, and even to volunteer. And 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.960 <v Speaker 1>what we found across all these studies that the women 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.400 <v Speaker 1>were forty four percent more likely to be asked to 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.600 <v Speaker 1>do a non promotable task than a man a similar man, 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.679 <v Speaker 1>so they were more likely to be asked. And you know, 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.319 <v Speaker 1>it was a pretty good strategy because the women who 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.480 <v Speaker 1>were asked were about fifty percent more likely to say yes. 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:33.920 <v Speaker 1>And at the same time, you know, we found that 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:39.880 <v Speaker 1>these norms or expectations potentially were internalized, that women were 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.400 <v Speaker 1>also more likely to volunteer to do a non promotable 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.760 <v Speaker 1>task in the first place. And we ran some really 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.719 <v Speaker 1>interesting set of studies that isolated the underlying reason for 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.800 <v Speaker 1>all of these things, which comes down to shared expectations. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.400 <v Speaker 1>It was it's not that women are better at doing 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.640 <v Speaker 1>non promotable tasks, or we like doing them more, or 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.680 <v Speaker 1>we're just more helpful or altruistic. Well we may be that, 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.760 <v Speaker 1>but that wasn't the reason women were voluntaring to do 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.880 <v Speaker 1>these tasks. It's because everybody expects the women to do it. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.240 <v Speaker 1>We don't expect the men to do it. In terms 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.960 <v Speaker 1>of our norms and stereotypes that we do think about 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:22.200 <v Speaker 1>women as helpers, and we know this, the women know this, 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.760 <v Speaker 1>we internalize it, and so we are more likely to 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.640 <v Speaker 1>say yes, We're more likely to volunteer, and people are 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:30.800 <v Speaker 1>more likely to ask us. So all these things are 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.040 <v Speaker 1>coming into play. That's so interesting. It is kind of 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.040 <v Speaker 1>like a cycle, right, because the more women say yes, 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.920 <v Speaker 1>the more that reinforces that they're the ones to ask, 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.360 <v Speaker 1>and then it's just kind of keeps feeding off of itself. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.200 <v Speaker 1>That's right, Okay, We're going to take a quick break, 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:46.880 <v Speaker 1>and then I want to talk a little bit about, like, 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.200 <v Speaker 1>is there a way to break this cycle without looking terrible, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.040 <v Speaker 1>because I think this is fascinating but also kind of 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.040 <v Speaker 1>disheartening it at the same time. All right, we'll be 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:10.680 <v Speaker 1>right back. All right, we are back, and we were 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.760 <v Speaker 1>talking about the kind of endless cycle of saying yes 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.560 <v Speaker 1>being expected to say yes. If you have read The 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.920 <v Speaker 1>Note Club and you are determined to maybe become a 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.720 <v Speaker 1>cycle breaker in this way, you are going to be 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.040 <v Speaker 1>faced with the fact that, at least in my experience, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.720 <v Speaker 1>I always feel like there is more pressure as a 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.640 <v Speaker 1>female to say yes, or that you, maybe to put 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.240 <v Speaker 1>it a different way, you get punished more harshly for 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.760 <v Speaker 1>saying no in a social way. So I would love 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.280 <v Speaker 1>your advice for ways to say no without either getting 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.240 <v Speaker 1>pushed back or developing a reputation as someone who is difficult, 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.440 <v Speaker 1>hard to work with, not a team player, et cetera. 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.240 <v Speaker 1>You know, it's really interesting you said you feel the 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.440 <v Speaker 1>pressure to say yes, and that you wondered if it 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.240 <v Speaker 1>was just you, because these are driven by expectations. It's 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.720 <v Speaker 1>not just you, it's if there are these ext expectations, 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.520 <v Speaker 1>and of course, when anyone violates an expectation, there's a 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.560 <v Speaker 1>risk of backlash, there's a risk of being punished, and 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.840 <v Speaker 1>this happens. So when women say no to these types 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.520 <v Speaker 1>of requests, there could be negative repercussions. You know, you're 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.280 <v Speaker 1>not a team player, you're not fulfilling the role you're 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.480 <v Speaker 1>supposed to. But when men say no, they don't get punished. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.120 <v Speaker 1>In fact, they get a boost when they say yes 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.640 <v Speaker 1>because oh they're so helpful. Women don't get that boost 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.320 <v Speaker 1>because we just expect them to do it. So that 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.160 <v Speaker 1>experience you have is very real, and it's been born 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.440 <v Speaker 1>out in studies that we've done. Other people have done 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.720 <v Speaker 1>as well. So what do you do about this? Knowing 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.480 <v Speaker 1>that there are these expectations out there, we can't just 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.240 <v Speaker 1>say no because there is this violation. So it's really 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.760 <v Speaker 1>how do you say no in a way to avoid 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.840 <v Speaker 1>the negative repercussions that you're talking about. So we do 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.440 <v Speaker 1>lay out a whole host of recommendations in the book. 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.520 <v Speaker 1>A few I wanted to focus on now would be first, 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:05.000 <v Speaker 1>keeping your explanation brief. You know, our kind of feeling 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.640 <v Speaker 1>is that I really have to explain myself and why 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.600 <v Speaker 1>I'm saying no, And well, the requester may expect to 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:13.760 <v Speaker 1>hear an explanation. You don't have to go into a 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.320 <v Speaker 1>lot of detail. You know that you have a full 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.120 <v Speaker 1>plate with your promotable work, with a deadline that's coming up. 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:25.480 <v Speaker 1>Whatever it may be could be sufficient. Second is to 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.080 <v Speaker 1>find ways to solve their problem. When someone comes with 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.560 <v Speaker 1>two with a request, they're hoping that you will solve 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.280 <v Speaker 1>their problem. But if you don't have the bandwidth to 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.840 <v Speaker 1>do that, you're already overloaded with other non promotable tasks. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.320 <v Speaker 1>Is there a way for you to either suggest someone 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.800 <v Speaker 1>else who could benefit from doing the task, maybe who's 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.360 <v Speaker 1>never done it before, or a different way they could 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.359 <v Speaker 1>divide up the work among other people so that they're 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.800 <v Speaker 1>getting what they need without you taking on the burden. 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.040 <v Speaker 1>So that's the second, and then the third is finding 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:01.320 <v Speaker 1>ways to negotiate your no, and sometimes it involves a 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:05.439 <v Speaker 1>bit of a yes. So one is to say, well, 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.680 <v Speaker 1>if I'm going to take this on, then I need 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.200 <v Speaker 1>to clear my plate to make room for it. So 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.600 <v Speaker 1>you need as a request, if you're especially if you're 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.240 <v Speaker 1>my boss, to think about what to roll out of 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.399 <v Speaker 1>in order to make room for this task, How do 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.520 <v Speaker 1>you want me to be spending your time? Because I'm 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.159 <v Speaker 1>sure you don't want me to cut back on my 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.600 <v Speaker 1>promotable work, because that's really important to the organization, that's 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.000 <v Speaker 1>the most instrumental to the bottom line. That's a big 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.720 <v Speaker 1>part of promotable work. But if you want this other 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.520 <v Speaker 1>work done, then what other non promotable tasks can someone 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.359 <v Speaker 1>else take on to make room? Also setting limits on 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.120 <v Speaker 1>the task, So if you want me to do it today, 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.720 <v Speaker 1>who's going to do it next time? So I'll take 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.960 <v Speaker 1>it on, but let's get Joe or James on board 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:51.879 <v Speaker 1>as well, so that they're trained up to do it 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.000 <v Speaker 1>next time. So we think about ways to turn the 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.679 <v Speaker 1>request for help into a negotiation. I like that. I 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.000 <v Speaker 1>feel like I could have used that the part about 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:02.960 <v Speaker 1>trading your time, or like, what else will I not 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.560 <v Speaker 1>do a little bit more than I did? Because you know, 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:08.960 <v Speaker 1>I didn't go into my whole story here, but I 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.639 <v Speaker 1>think part of what drove me into deciding to go 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.639 <v Speaker 1>part time is frustration with so many of these things, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.000 <v Speaker 1>and that the ultimate permission to say no was to say, sorry, 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:20.800 <v Speaker 1>I only work here sixty percent. My paycheck is sixty percent, 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.480 <v Speaker 1>So you're gonna have to ask someone who is you 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.000 <v Speaker 1>know here all the time. But I don't think that 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.520 <v Speaker 1>is a great answer for most people. I happen to have, 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:30.480 <v Speaker 1>you know, other things I really wanted to do with 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.880 <v Speaker 1>the forty percent. Anyway, that's super interesting. I just going back, 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.560 <v Speaker 1>I'm hearing like, oh, what could I have done better there? 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.240 <v Speaker 1>All right, Well, give us an example of what is 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.520 <v Speaker 1>a yes activity like if we're saying no to some 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.160 <v Speaker 1>of these things, what are things that you know? A frame? 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.280 <v Speaker 1>Is there a framework or a way that you have 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.200 <v Speaker 1>of deciding if someone asks you something, whether it's something 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.800 <v Speaker 1>that is worth your time, that is worth maybe moving 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:59.359 <v Speaker 1>your core job responsibilities away from to really decide what 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.880 <v Speaker 1>to say yes. I mean, a really important point is 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.439 <v Speaker 1>you need to say yes to some things, and you 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.679 <v Speaker 1>should say yes to some non promotable tasks. The answer 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.680 <v Speaker 1>here is not to say no to everything. It's to 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.959 <v Speaker 1>choose the mptes that are right for you end up 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.680 <v Speaker 1>with tasks that are fulfilling. And so this was actually 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:24.520 <v Speaker 1>the insight that I had in terms of why I 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.080 <v Speaker 1>was much less stressed out than the rest of my 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.520 <v Speaker 1>no club in terms of the non promotable task I 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.240 <v Speaker 1>was doing so they were running around doing things that 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.720 <v Speaker 1>weren't necessarily fulfilling to them. But I was maybe subconsciously 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.400 <v Speaker 1>choosing the tasks that were right for me, that were 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.280 <v Speaker 1>either aligned with my personal mission or help me grow 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.280 <v Speaker 1>as a leader. So I was doing this in a 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:50.400 <v Speaker 1>way that resulted in a think about like a portfolio 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.399 <v Speaker 1>or a mix of non promotable tasks that were energizing 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.840 <v Speaker 1>for me as opposed to depleting. So that was one 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.800 <v Speaker 1>piece of the puzzle in terms of using mpts that 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.080 <v Speaker 1>are right for you, in terms of choosing the ones 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.840 <v Speaker 1>that are most fulfilling. A second characteristic is to choose 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:11.760 <v Speaker 1>mptes that really leverage your expertise. Right, So, look, I'm 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:16.720 <v Speaker 1>a professor. I was hired for my research skills and 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.280 <v Speaker 1>my teaching skills, not my skills of how to design 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.640 <v Speaker 1>a new building. Now, I might have some insight into 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.840 <v Speaker 1>what classrooms should be structured, but I didn't need to spend, 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.640 <v Speaker 1>you know, months and months on the design of three 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.399 <v Speaker 1>different buildings over my thirty year career. So you know, 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:38.680 <v Speaker 1>choosing mputees that leverage your expertise is also more beneficial 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:40.920 <v Speaker 1>to your organization and more beneficial to you and even 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:45.320 <v Speaker 1>potentially indirectly promotable in that at least you're developing those 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:50.639 <v Speaker 1>key skill sets and then thinking about choosing mpts that 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.480 <v Speaker 1>are right for you at that time. So sometimes mpts 0:21:54.600 --> 0:22:00.199 <v Speaker 1>are actually opportunities and they may present themselves as you know, 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.359 <v Speaker 1>it feels really good to be asked. You know, you 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.040 <v Speaker 1>respect me a lot. I'll get some visibility from this, 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.240 <v Speaker 1>and doing that once may be good, but doing it 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.760 <v Speaker 1>many times, you know, there's diminishing returns over time, so 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.520 <v Speaker 1>it's not really a great use of your time the second, third, 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.320 <v Speaker 1>or fourth time you did it, Like that building committee. 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:19.040 <v Speaker 1>Maybe the first time was good, I met a bunch 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:22.160 <v Speaker 1>of people, the third or fourth less so for my career. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.119 <v Speaker 1>But then also, you know, some of these opportunities are 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.920 <v Speaker 1>very time consuming, and if I can't do them today, 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.600 <v Speaker 1>maybe I'll be asked again in a few years from 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.679 <v Speaker 1>now when I have more time or I've completed this 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.399 <v Speaker 1>important task I'm working on now. So you know, you 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:41.479 <v Speaker 1>think about this in the long term and not just 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.600 <v Speaker 1>the short term. That makes sense, and you know, saying 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.320 <v Speaker 1>no relates to you know, we have two triggers typically 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.160 <v Speaker 1>either fear or guilt. Right, we're either afraid to say 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.760 <v Speaker 1>no because of this backlash issue we talked about, or 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:59.680 <v Speaker 1>we feel guilty saying no because there's this simplicit expectation 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:02.680 <v Speaker 1>that we're going to help a friend or a colleague. 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.159 <v Speaker 1>And so recognizing those triggers that you might have or 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.000 <v Speaker 1>the motivations you have for saying yes, can help you 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.760 <v Speaker 1>make better decisions about what to do and when to 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.600 <v Speaker 1>say yes and when to say no. I definitely recognize 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:17.919 <v Speaker 1>those triggers sometimes. But and then at the same time, 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.280 <v Speaker 1>if you're truly afraid of what the backlash would be 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.919 <v Speaker 1>by like disappointing someone that is senior to you, it 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:27.080 <v Speaker 1>almost makes it worse because you're like, Okay, I could 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:28.439 <v Speaker 1>say no to this, and I want to say no 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:30.440 <v Speaker 1>to this, but then this person will be disappointed and 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:34.840 <v Speaker 1>will never come to me again. Like I guess, in 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.080 <v Speaker 1>practical terms, if you have just sort of come to 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.199 <v Speaker 1>realization that you've become such a yes person and you 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.760 <v Speaker 1>want to start optimizing what your portfolio looks like and 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.800 <v Speaker 1>only have the yeses on your plate, that makes sense. 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:51.439 <v Speaker 1>With that framework, where would you start? Would you like 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.840 <v Speaker 1>start small, like one little no. I don't know. I'm 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:59.280 <v Speaker 1>just curious because for myself. This is still challenging even today, 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:01.440 <v Speaker 1>even though I even with my built in excuse, I'm 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:03.960 <v Speaker 1>still putting myself in the position and I'm still having 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.000 <v Speaker 1>a hard time figuring out certain types of requests how 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.720 <v Speaker 1>I would be able to turn them down. Yeah. So 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:14.240 <v Speaker 1>having a framework of thinking about what types of tasks 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:16.280 <v Speaker 1>you want to say yes to and the types of 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:18.639 <v Speaker 1>tasks you want to say no to give you an 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:23.080 <v Speaker 1>initial filter of how to respond. But your best first 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:27.320 <v Speaker 1>step is to never say yes immediately. When someone asks 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:29.399 <v Speaker 1>you to do a non promotable task or something you 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:32.080 <v Speaker 1>think is non promotable, tell them you'll get back to 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:35.840 <v Speaker 1>them and then do your homework. How much time is 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:39.679 <v Speaker 1>this going to take? What's expected of me? Why do 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:42.400 <v Speaker 1>I feel the need to say yes? Is it realistic? 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:44.359 <v Speaker 1>Is this someone I need to say yes to? Sometimes 0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:46.720 <v Speaker 1>it is right, but other times it's someone that you 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:50.560 <v Speaker 1>can have a conversation with about the shared problem that 0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:53.040 <v Speaker 1>I don't have the bandwidth to pick this up right now, 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:56.800 <v Speaker 1>So let's find a way to help you. And also, 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.800 <v Speaker 1>you know, say yes and recognize you know the limits 0:24:59.840 --> 0:25:05.440 <v Speaker 1>that I have. So it's doing the assessment of how 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.159 <v Speaker 1>do you currently spend your time and understanding what's your 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:11.600 <v Speaker 1>work work balance right now? How much promotable versus non 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:14.800 <v Speaker 1>promotable work are you doing currently, how do others spend 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:18.639 <v Speaker 1>their time, and one of the organization's expectations, and you 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.600 <v Speaker 1>kind of put this all together to come up with 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:25.119 <v Speaker 1>a goal of the amount of time you can spend, 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:27.920 <v Speaker 1>and then you can use that to make your adjustments 0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:30.840 <v Speaker 1>and also to respond to other people in terms of 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.320 <v Speaker 1>am I in that band of work that is right 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:37.480 <v Speaker 1>for the organization and right for me? And then turn 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:41.040 <v Speaker 1>to your manager proactively instead of reactively, So instead of 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:44.280 <v Speaker 1>waiting for a request to come into you, go to 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:47.679 <v Speaker 1>your manager and say, hey, look, you may not be 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:50.400 <v Speaker 1>aware of all these other things I'm doing, but they're 0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:52.240 <v Speaker 1>all on my plate and I could really use your 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:55.960 <v Speaker 1>help sorting through this to determine what my priority should be, 0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:58.119 <v Speaker 1>how I should be spending my time, how you'd like 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.240 <v Speaker 1>me to be spending my time, because I guarant too 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.200 <v Speaker 1>they'll come back with them wanting to do your promotable work, 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:06.840 <v Speaker 1>because again that helps them more than anything. And then 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:09.840 <v Speaker 1>recognize that there are other people who could potentially take 0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:13.119 <v Speaker 1>on this extra work that you're already doing. No that 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:15.199 <v Speaker 1>makes sense I like that. Turning to my manager is 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:17.880 <v Speaker 1>something that I always like doing because thankfully I work 0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:21.480 <v Speaker 1>with really good people and the delayed response is definitely 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:28.120 <v Speaker 1>softer and less terrifying than a immediate no. So okay 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:30.840 <v Speaker 1>in every episode that we do for best of both worlds, 0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:32.399 <v Speaker 1>and by the way, this I think is going to 0:26:32.480 --> 0:26:34.159 <v Speaker 1>be so valuable. I would not be surprised if we 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:37.399 <v Speaker 1>get some specific questions for you after it airs, so 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:41.040 <v Speaker 1>I will email you if they come through Laura's blog, 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:43.640 <v Speaker 1>which is usually where the kind of detailed show notes come, 0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:46.080 <v Speaker 1>and then maybe if you have some expertise to offer, 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.159 <v Speaker 1>we would love that. But every week we do a 0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:52.679 <v Speaker 1>love of the Week, where people share something that is 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:55.960 <v Speaker 1>making them happy in a given week, and so do 0:26:56.000 --> 0:27:01.040 <v Speaker 1>you have one for us? Yeah? So I'm reading this 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:04.480 <v Speaker 1>book right now that it's making me happy, but it's 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:07.600 <v Speaker 1>also challenging me in a way that you know, makes 0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:11.200 <v Speaker 1>me a little uncomfortable but also really cool. The books 0:27:11.240 --> 0:27:15.760 <v Speaker 1>called Shared Sisterhood. It's written by Tina Opie and Beth Livingstone. 0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:19.320 <v Speaker 1>It was put out by the Harvard Business Press, but 0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:24.240 <v Speaker 1>it's really about how white women and women of color 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:27.760 <v Speaker 1>can come together to support both racial and gender equity, 0:27:28.359 --> 0:27:30.679 <v Speaker 1>and so you know, as a white woman, especially writing 0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:33.040 <v Speaker 1>this book, you know all of us were we really 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:36.520 <v Speaker 1>came from this, you know, this position of privilege and 0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:41.159 <v Speaker 1>of just as a function of our socioeconomic status and 0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:45.480 <v Speaker 1>our jobs and our race that you know doesn't necessarily 0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:49.520 <v Speaker 1>extend to our sisters. And I find this book as 0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:54.200 <v Speaker 1>a really great and enjoyable and eye opening read. So 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:57.000 <v Speaker 1>it's something I recommend. Awesome, I will link that in 0:27:57.040 --> 0:28:00.520 <v Speaker 1>the show notes Shared Sisterhood perfect. Well, I guess I'll 0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:04.320 <v Speaker 1>just do a book as well. So I used The 0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:07.080 <v Speaker 1>Handmaid's Tale the series as a love of the Week, 0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:08.639 <v Speaker 1>but now I'm going to add the book because I 0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:12.439 <v Speaker 1>am greatly enjoying the Margaret Atwood version. It feels incredibly current. 0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:15.760 <v Speaker 1>They are very similar, but I don't really mind that 0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:18.119 <v Speaker 1>because I kind of enjoyed being immersed in that world anyway. 0:28:18.200 --> 0:28:20.479 <v Speaker 1>So it's just fun to see a different type of depiction. 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:22.920 <v Speaker 1>So that will be my novel love of the week. 0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:24.639 <v Speaker 1>Since you had a book, I feel like I had 0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:27.960 <v Speaker 1>to have a book too. Awesome. Well, thank you so 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:30.800 <v Speaker 1>much for coming on. This is wonderful. Where can everybody 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:32.920 <v Speaker 1>find you? And of course I will link to exactly 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:34.920 <v Speaker 1>the title and all the authors of the book, because 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:37.640 <v Speaker 1>you were one of a couple co authors. Correct, there's 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:40.560 <v Speaker 1>four of us actually who wrote the book together. We 0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:42.600 <v Speaker 1>are the I just can't say no club now. We 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:45.280 <v Speaker 1>call ourselves the note Club because we've gotten so much better. 0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:49.160 <v Speaker 1>You can find us at the note club dot com. 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:53.040 <v Speaker 1>So we have a website where with some information about 0:28:53.040 --> 0:28:58.360 <v Speaker 1>the book, places we've given talks, press coverage, some excerpts. 0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:02.480 <v Speaker 1>We also have there a information for book clubs, you know, 0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:04.600 <v Speaker 1>questions for book clubs if they want to discuss the 0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:07.280 <v Speaker 1>book in their book club, or ways to start your 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:10.640 <v Speaker 1>own note club, which we also encourage. So I think 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:14.840 <v Speaker 1>there's some resources there that everybody can gain from. I 0:29:14.920 --> 0:29:16.640 <v Speaker 1>love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on. 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:18.600 <v Speaker 1>All of this definitely made me think a lot, and 0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:20.720 <v Speaker 1>I think it will be really useful to many of 0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:23.920 <v Speaker 1>our listeners as well. And thanks so much for the opportunity. 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:27.080 <v Speaker 1>I really appreciate it. Thanks Sarah, all right, well, that 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:30.840 <v Speaker 1>was so much fun chatting with Laurie Weingart. Definitely will 0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:33.840 <v Speaker 1>include all the information about the link to her book 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.360 <v Speaker 1>and her book that she did with some others in 0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:39.360 <v Speaker 1>the show notes and we have a fun question for you. 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:44.240 <v Speaker 1>Apparently I'm reading it. Okay, here we go. I have 0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:46.800 <v Speaker 1>been thinking a lot about getting more help around the home. 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:49.160 <v Speaker 1>Right now. We have cleaners come about once a week, 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:50.840 <v Speaker 1>but I've been thinking it would be nice to have 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:53.280 <v Speaker 1>more help, someone who is around for longer, who could 0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:56.920 <v Speaker 1>do laundry, change beds, get groceries, and all the other 0:29:57.000 --> 0:30:00.360 <v Speaker 1>tours that the once a week cleaners don't do. My 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:02.560 <v Speaker 1>husband works from home, and we're unsure about how he 0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:04.920 <v Speaker 1>would feel having someone else in the house during the day. 0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:07.360 <v Speaker 1>He tends to eat at a regular times, fitting it 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:09.480 <v Speaker 1>around meetings, and it just seems like he would feel 0:30:09.520 --> 0:30:11.640 <v Speaker 1>like he was getting in their way or vice versa. 0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:16.680 <v Speaker 1>Do you have any advice on getting over this hesitation. Yeah, 0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:20.120 <v Speaker 1>I mean, I totally understand because when you work from home, 0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:23.160 <v Speaker 1>one of the upsides sometimes is that you're in the 0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:26.320 <v Speaker 1>house by yourself, right, and especially if you are an 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:28.680 <v Speaker 1>adult with many children, there may not be that many 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:31.600 <v Speaker 1>moments when you are in the house by yourself. And 0:30:31.640 --> 0:30:34.640 <v Speaker 1>I'm not saying that you you know, go around like 0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:38.520 <v Speaker 1>dancing and singing or anything like that, but it's nice 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.640 <v Speaker 1>to have that feeling of privacy as you are going 0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:43.240 <v Speaker 1>about your day, and if you have someone else in 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:45.960 <v Speaker 1>the house, then you don't necessarily have that. So I 0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:48.320 <v Speaker 1>think there's a couple of things you can do if 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:50.680 <v Speaker 1>you decide that this is something that you are interested in. 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:53.480 <v Speaker 1>Is one is be very clear with your husband about 0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:56.880 <v Speaker 1>which hours he would most like protected and which he 0:30:56.960 --> 0:30:59.440 <v Speaker 1>does not. And it might mean that you need to 0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:01.520 <v Speaker 1>be a little bit or set in the hours that 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:06.000 <v Speaker 1>your help would come. But if, for instance, he really 0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:08.480 <v Speaker 1>likes to have the house to himself in the mornings, 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:12.120 <v Speaker 1>then maybe you have this person come from two to five, 0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:15.120 <v Speaker 1>three days a week or something that those are the 0:31:15.200 --> 0:31:18.280 <v Speaker 1>days that maybe he will get adjusted to the idea 0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:20.440 <v Speaker 1>of having someone else in the house. Then I would 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:24.240 <v Speaker 1>say if you hire someone also who's done this sort 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:26.720 <v Speaker 1>of thing before, maybe if you look into their past experience, 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:29.360 <v Speaker 1>if they have, you know, worked in a house where 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:31.400 <v Speaker 1>maybe there's a stay at home parent or maybe there's 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:34.200 <v Speaker 1>somebody who works from home or whatever, that they know 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:37.400 <v Speaker 1>how to kind of stay out of people's way. That's 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:42.720 <v Speaker 1>also kind of a helpful thing that you can kind 0:31:42.720 --> 0:31:44.680 <v Speaker 1>of get used to each other as well, or he'll 0:31:44.680 --> 0:31:46.560 <v Speaker 1>get used to like when she's running errands like these 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:48.360 <v Speaker 1>are the times she'll actually be here or he will 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:51.320 <v Speaker 1>be here, but you know there are sometimes that they 0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:54.400 <v Speaker 1>definitely will not be there, and then you kind of 0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:57.720 <v Speaker 1>learn how to be in the space but not be 0:31:57.800 --> 0:32:00.240 <v Speaker 1>on top of each other for the hours that the 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:03.640 <v Speaker 1>person is there. I know that our neighbors tend to 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:06.560 <v Speaker 1>have their cleaning person just not clean the office when 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:09.400 <v Speaker 1>my friend is working from home, and they do the 0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:11.600 <v Speaker 1>rest of the house, and then therefore they're really not 0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:13.600 <v Speaker 1>in the way of each other. So I would also 0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:16.720 <v Speaker 1>just say maybe to try it, like arrange the hours 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:20.520 <v Speaker 1>as best you can, because until you've actually seen what 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:23.960 <v Speaker 1>it's like, you know, it kind of depends. Like Josh 0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:25.760 <v Speaker 1>and I are very different in this regard. If I'm 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:28.240 <v Speaker 1>recording a podcast, obviously I can't have somebody making a 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:32.040 <v Speaker 1>bunch of background noise. But if I'm not recording specifically, 0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:34.520 <v Speaker 1>I'm a very good concentrator, and there could be like 0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:37.600 <v Speaker 1>a literal tornado going on, and I honestly wouldn't notice 0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:40.640 <v Speaker 1>unless it was my own kids screaming for me. So 0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:43.200 <v Speaker 1>you know, my threshold's pretty low, but I might not 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:45.160 <v Speaker 1>know that until I actually tried it. Like I don't 0:32:45.160 --> 0:32:48.360 <v Speaker 1>mind somebody cleaning if I'm working. My husband would absolutely 0:32:48.400 --> 0:32:50.720 <v Speaker 1>mind that. But you know, again, if he hasn't tried it, 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:52.960 <v Speaker 1>and depending on how your house is set up, he 0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:55.120 <v Speaker 1>might actually be able to kind of hide from them 0:32:56.000 --> 0:32:58.680 <v Speaker 1>with more ease than he thinks. So I would also 0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:01.600 <v Speaker 1>just say dive in before assuming it's going to be 0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:04.280 <v Speaker 1>a problem, and he might develop his own strategies too. 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:06.120 <v Speaker 1>I mean, I know that if it seems like the 0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:08.520 <v Speaker 1>house is busy with lots of you know, we've had 0:33:08.600 --> 0:33:12.600 <v Speaker 1>various renovations going on, and that is harder to concentrate with. 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:14.960 <v Speaker 1>But like, I'll go work somewhere else, Like I've worked 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:16.560 <v Speaker 1>in the library. Now, that doesn't work if you have 0:33:16.600 --> 0:33:19.680 <v Speaker 1>a lot of conference calls. But you know, maybe there's 0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:24.840 <v Speaker 1>he can do walks while on a conference call or something. 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.040 <v Speaker 1>If he does have quiet work that he could go 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:29.720 <v Speaker 1>work in a library or coffee shop or something like that. 0:33:29.800 --> 0:33:31.480 <v Speaker 1>I don't know the sort of work he does, but 0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:33.640 <v Speaker 1>it's entirely possible that he might be able to do 0:33:33.720 --> 0:33:35.680 <v Speaker 1>that sort of thing. He can also go, yeah, lock 0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:37.440 <v Speaker 1>himself in his office and they don't come in there. 0:33:37.560 --> 0:33:39.840 <v Speaker 1>I mean that that is entirely the easiest way to 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:42.720 <v Speaker 1>stay out of each other's hair. And it's not that 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:45.160 <v Speaker 1>different from you know, if you're at an office and 0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:47.560 <v Speaker 1>you would like shut yourself in your office or cubicle 0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:50.200 <v Speaker 1>and like not deal with whatever people are coming in 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:52.480 <v Speaker 1>and out and around, and it's certainly possible to do 0:33:52.520 --> 0:33:56.440 <v Speaker 1>that well. This has been best of both worlds. Sarah 0:33:56.520 --> 0:33:59.240 <v Speaker 1>was interviewing Laurie Weinert, who is one of the co 0:33:59.360 --> 0:34:03.280 <v Speaker 1>authors of The No Club, great book about saying no 0:34:03.640 --> 0:34:07.240 <v Speaker 1>to non promotable tasks. We will be back next week 0:34:07.280 --> 0:34:11.439 <v Speaker 1>with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:14.520 <v Speaker 1>for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:18.920 <v Speaker 1>dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and 0:34:19.000 --> 0:34:22.840 <v Speaker 1>you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 0:34:23.200 --> 0:34:26.440 <v Speaker 1>This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please 0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:29.080 <v Speaker 1>join us next time for more on making work and 0:34:29.160 --> 0:34:30.320 <v Speaker 1>life work together.