Muppets Christmas Carol: Attachment Wounds & Values

<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster
<v Speaker 1>movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and
<v Speaker 1>I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by Ben Stover,
<v Speaker 1>individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo marriage and family therapists. We're all
<v Speaker 1>licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice
<v Speaker 1>out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals,
<v Speaker 1>this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill
<v Speaker 1>our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.
<v Speaker 2>Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,
<v Speaker 2>we aren't your therapist.
<v Speaker 1>If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find
<v Speaker 1>a local mental health provider. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone.
<v Speaker 1>For our last episode of twenty twenty five, we were
<v Speaker 1>talking about a Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens classic. Specifically, though
<v Speaker 1>we will be discussing map It's Christmas Carol, which in
<v Speaker 1>my opinion, is the best adaptation of a Christmas Carol.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what you two think of. What are
<v Speaker 3>your two? Well?
<v Speaker 1>Do you guys have different opinions about what's the best
<v Speaker 1>adaptation of a Christmas Carol.
<v Speaker 3>We'll get that out of the way.
<v Speaker 2>Best her favorite's a different discussion. Favorite Muppets exactly best.
<v Speaker 2>I think George C. Scott did it best. But okay,
<v Speaker 2>fair best and favorite. This is classic and it's gold.
<v Speaker 1>This is the only version that I really love and
<v Speaker 1>I've never watched another version and I never will.
<v Speaker 3>We watched Scrooge yesterday. Yeah, but that's.
<v Speaker 1>Different because it's Bill Murray.
<v Speaker 3>That feels different. It's more of a retelling. Yeah, okay,
<v Speaker 3>I'll give you that.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but I think most people know the plot of
<v Speaker 1>a Christmas Carol, but if you don't, it's about a
<v Speaker 1>miserly old man named Ebenezer Scrooge who has no friends,
<v Speaker 1>who is a I don't know, busy this man, what
<v Speaker 1>will we call him?
<v Speaker 2>He's a lender?
<v Speaker 3>A lender?
<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, Yeah, he's like a loan shark type and
<v Speaker 1>he's taken a lot of money from people. He doesn't
<v Speaker 1>give a shit about anybody, He overworks his employees, doesn't
<v Speaker 1>care about Christmas, and he gets visited by three ghosts
<v Speaker 1>on Christmas Night to teach him that basically money isn't
<v Speaker 1>everything and he needs to turn his shit around. If
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't want to go to hell like his ex
<v Speaker 1>partner and friend Jacob Marley.
<v Speaker 2>So in this episode we're going to be covering emotional neglect,
<v Speaker 2>attachment wounds, and values before we get into treatment and
<v Speaker 2>final thoughts.
<v Speaker 1>Just like always so, Ebeneezer is a classic character, even
<v Speaker 1>being called like a scrooge or saying bahumbug, and he
<v Speaker 1>is sort of a parody of a guy that is
<v Speaker 1>a miser. I mean that's like the classic word right
<v Speaker 1>for him is someone who is just not just rich,
<v Speaker 1>but super tight with their money.
<v Speaker 3>He won't turn the heat on in.
<v Speaker 1>His place, but he also went in the lights on
<v Speaker 1>or used something like he was doing stuff in the dark.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he doesn't care about it.
<v Speaker 2>He lives at Marley's place. Oh yeah, he doesn't even
<v Speaker 2>have his own house anymore. He lives in his dead
<v Speaker 2>partner's house so he doesn't have to pay for it.
<v Speaker 3>Well, damn, that's worse than I thought.
<v Speaker 2>And still won't use heat or really barely uses his
<v Speaker 2>chamber stick.
<v Speaker 3>Oh God, would Kurda define that for the class?
<v Speaker 2>A chamber stick a candle with a little brass ring
<v Speaker 2>as a holder.
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I thought you were referring to something associated with
<v Speaker 1>a chamber pot. No, like something you use maybe like
<v Speaker 1>a stick to break up your poop.
<v Speaker 2>No, a chamberstick is a candle holder, you know, because
<v Speaker 2>they used candles to keep fighting. Familiar candlestick or candle
<v Speaker 2>chamber stick collection.
<v Speaker 3>Oh fancy.
<v Speaker 2>So it's been forefront of my mind. Also watching The
<v Speaker 2>Frozen a lot, and they use them in there too.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, gotcha, gotcha didn't realize.
<v Speaker 2>Which is more or less set in the same time period,
<v Speaker 2>so makes sense.
<v Speaker 3>Okay.
<v Speaker 1>So he is a man who pinches pennies to the max,
<v Speaker 1>like he even though he has a ton of money,
<v Speaker 1>he is choosing to live as if he almost has none,
<v Speaker 1>and he treats money as like a very scarce commodity.
<v Speaker 1>He had no generosity in his spirit, like he wants
<v Speaker 1>his Bob Cratchett, his like secondhand man to work on Christmas.
<v Speaker 1>He doesn't want to give money to the orphans, the
<v Speaker 1>people collecting money for orphans. He just doesn't seem to
<v Speaker 1>care about anyone else and seems to value money over everything.
<v Speaker 1>And that's the guy we meet at the beginning of
<v Speaker 1>the story. When I think about Ebenezer, also think about
<v Speaker 1>him as just like hoarding, like he's just hoarding all
<v Speaker 1>of his money and hoarding all of his resources and
<v Speaker 1>just keeping them really tight to him. He won't he
<v Speaker 1>won't spend money in anything or anyone because he just
<v Speaker 1>has to have all of it to.
<v Speaker 2>Himself, and he won't even enjoy it.
<v Speaker 3>No, he doesn't enjoy it. He seems.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I feel like miser literally means a miserable fuck.
<v Speaker 3>Like he's a miserable fuck. Yeah, he's miserable.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's pretty much exactly means. And it's very clear
<v Speaker 2>that Ebenezer is the now classic definition of this miserable
<v Speaker 2>old person who humbug humbug doesn't like anyone or anything.
<v Speaker 2>But really that gruph exterior is just something he's locked
<v Speaker 2>into to keep other people locked out and to keep
<v Speaker 2>himself locked in. It does not reflect who he truly is,
<v Speaker 2>and it shows pretty quick into the story that he's
<v Speaker 2>not actually got such a frozen heart as he likes
<v Speaker 2>to portray.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, he's definitely some one that is acting as
<v Speaker 1>if this is also the life that they want. And
<v Speaker 1>what I mean by that is he does have this
<v Speaker 1>very gregarious, kind seeming nephew who wants to involve him,
<v Speaker 1>wants to kind of get him out, Like you can
<v Speaker 1>see moments where, even like with Bob Kraujet, like moments
<v Speaker 1>where it seems like the community would take him in,
<v Speaker 1>like would open themselves up to him, but he has
<v Speaker 1>gotten so deep into what you're bringing up in like
<v Speaker 1>this protective persona that he is constantly rejecting and pushing away, and.
<v Speaker 3>In my opinion, well and also something.
<v Speaker 1>People do do which is over identifying with what keeps them,
<v Speaker 1>what they think keeps them safe, like I like being
<v Speaker 1>by myself. I don't even care about Christmas. Overdoing it
<v Speaker 1>with this part of their personality.
<v Speaker 2>It's a part. I mean, I think people are more
<v Speaker 2>or less to understand. Yeah, what a part is, We've
<v Speaker 2>described it pretty well. I mean I think this isn't
<v Speaker 2>a component of his personality. He's developed as a defense
<v Speaker 2>to keep himself as painfree as possible.
<v Speaker 1>And we see right away because obviously because we watch
<v Speaker 1>the Muppets movie. Though I'm sure we'll reference other parts
<v Speaker 1>of the story from other adaptations because it's such a big, well,
<v Speaker 1>it's such a ubiquitous story that everybody seems to know,
<v Speaker 1>similar to when we talk about the Grinch.
<v Speaker 2>And conveniently, because of Hollywood, money. It's in the public
<v Speaker 2>domain now. Oh, so they don't have to pay royalty fees.
<v Speaker 3>So I could make my own version of Christmas Carol.
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure you could.
<v Speaker 3>Wow. I mean I won't, but it's nice to know.
<v Speaker 3>But I could.
<v Speaker 1>But we see right away in this version of the
<v Speaker 1>story when the ghosts of Christmas Past comes, which spooks me,
<v Speaker 1>the gross of Christmas past scary in this version of
<v Speaker 1>the story.
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that puppet is creepy, ooky, spooky.
<v Speaker 1>I don't like it. Definitely haunted me as a child,
<v Speaker 1>very uncomfortable. Wow, really, because I feel like the first
<v Speaker 1>ghost is like, well, whatever ghost because of the little
<v Speaker 1>kid head.
<v Speaker 3>No, it's like it doesn't exist in the real world.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, which I guess is the point.
<v Speaker 2>It looks very ethereal.
<v Speaker 3>Creeps Oh, I see.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, because it looks ethereal, or because the way the
<v Speaker 2>face moves. Because the way the face moves is creepy.
<v Speaker 2>This puppet is a little I really both.
<v Speaker 1>This is definitely a feeling that comes from my childhood,
<v Speaker 1>when I was probably watching it and being like what,
<v Speaker 1>I don't like it, Like, I couldn't contextualize it. It
<v Speaker 1>just gave me the weirds and so I still have
<v Speaker 1>that feeling when I see it. But this ghost to
<v Speaker 1>show Ebenezer right away. Like the first image we get
<v Speaker 1>of him as a kid is being at boarding school,
<v Speaker 1>I assume, and he's there at Christmas time. It seems
<v Speaker 1>like most of the other kids, if not all the
<v Speaker 1>other kids have gone home for holiday break, and he's
<v Speaker 1>sitting by himself in the classroom doing work, doing school work.
<v Speaker 2>And that's the first time we see a part appear
<v Speaker 2>in this movie. Because Scrooge is still accessing that memory
<v Speaker 2>and locking into like, well, it's quieter and it gives
<v Speaker 2>you the opportunity to do more work. He will not
<v Speaker 2>admit to himself still that that Mettmory pained him, but
<v Speaker 2>the veil cracks not long after that, and he's like,
<v Speaker 2>please don't show him anymore.
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, when he said, it's the best, it's a
<v Speaker 1>good opportunity to get work done because he's by himself,
<v Speaker 1>And I was like, yikes, you can very much hear
<v Speaker 1>how that's a story he started telling himself around that
<v Speaker 1>time to deal with the situation, because you're right, like
<v Speaker 1>this the sad circumstance, which is that's horrible.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, when we talk about.
<v Speaker 1>An idea of emotional neglect, like leaving your kid at
<v Speaker 1>the school over the holidays, choosing to do that.
<v Speaker 3>We don't know why.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this movie, this version doesn't give us a
<v Speaker 1>lot of details about his backstory.
<v Speaker 2>This version sure doesn't.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but we're to assume that he, Yeah, he was
<v Speaker 1>just like a really lonely kid who had to spend
<v Speaker 1>time by himself. And instead of acknowledging the truth of that,
<v Speaker 1>he's trying to, yeah, make it into something else.
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was using it to retell his story and
<v Speaker 2>use that as the reason why he was successful. All
<v Speaker 2>these other people went home, and I learned how to focus,
<v Speaker 2>and I learned how to ignore frivolous human interactions and
<v Speaker 2>connections and just focus on money and facts and learning,
<v Speaker 2>which very clearly becomes untrue. And we see is untrue,
<v Speaker 2>because he lights right up when we start seeing other
<v Speaker 2>parts of his story. But I won't skip ahead just yet.
<v Speaker 1>No, And I think you're naming there is something we
<v Speaker 1>see now, like in real life when people talk about
<v Speaker 1>their stories, Like when I hear successful people talk about
<v Speaker 1>their childhoods and stuff, and I can hear what we're
<v Speaker 1>talking about, like them doing that too. Which is, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>it was really good for me that my parents did
<v Speaker 1>this to me or that to me, because it taught
<v Speaker 1>me to be ruthless or to really work hard. The
<v Speaker 1>way that we try to make meaning out of bad
<v Speaker 1>stuff that happens to us, which isn't on its face
<v Speaker 1>the worst thing to do, obviously, like there is something
<v Speaker 1>there to putting meaning into.
<v Speaker 3>Hardships we've gone through.
<v Speaker 1>But the way that we're talking about it is where
<v Speaker 1>you go too far in the other direction and you
<v Speaker 1>over do it and you get really attached you and
<v Speaker 1>you almost like moralize the circumstance you were in, like
<v Speaker 1>it was good for me, and so it was good
<v Speaker 1>that I went through that because it allows it to
<v Speaker 1>make it into something virtuous versus just something painful.
<v Speaker 2>Which is exactly what parts do. We'll start creating a
<v Speaker 2>version of the story that separates the version we allow
<v Speaker 2>to exist, or the version that needs to exist, from
<v Speaker 2>the guey soft core underneath that represents all of us
<v Speaker 2>where we can get hurt and do and in his
<v Speaker 2>case did get hurt, get very got very hurt, and
<v Speaker 2>you know, they make the point of showing us it's
<v Speaker 2>weird by having the other kids present in that story
<v Speaker 2>asking him you're not going home. He never goes home.
<v Speaker 3>He always stays.
<v Speaker 2>And I think one of them more or less is like, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>he's getting left. And other versions of the story go
<v Speaker 2>through the interactions between him and his sister who also
<v Speaker 2>goes to I believe goes to the school, or the
<v Speaker 2>sister talks his father into letting him come home for Christmas,
<v Speaker 2>not this one and not several of them, but eventually
<v Speaker 2>she talks the dad into letting him come home, and
<v Speaker 2>he's very very attached to her, but not to his
<v Speaker 2>parents and his sisters. The mother of said nephew you
<v Speaker 2>mentioned earlier, which is why that nephew is still connected
<v Speaker 2>to him.
<v Speaker 1>Also maybe why that nephew is such a happy person.
<v Speaker 1>If his mom had a different experience growing up than
<v Speaker 1>Ebenezer dead.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, his sister would have gotten love and connection and
<v Speaker 2>seen as valuable, which would kind of build into the
<v Speaker 2>attachment wounds. If we don't have anything else to say,
<v Speaker 2>I'm emotional neglect at this moment.
<v Speaker 1>I think the only thing I want to say about
<v Speaker 1>this part of Ebenezer's experience is that when you have
<v Speaker 1>something that happens to you repeatedly, over and over and
<v Speaker 1>over and over again. That story that you're telling yourself
<v Speaker 1>only gets stronger and only and feels like truth instead
<v Speaker 1>of a part of a story that you were experiencing.
<v Speaker 1>So because this isn't like he got left one Christmas,
<v Speaker 1>he got left every Christmas after he went to boarding school.
<v Speaker 1>And having experiences like that also makes it really hard
<v Speaker 1>for a person to hold hope that things will be
<v Speaker 1>different or that things can be different, because well, look
<v Speaker 1>what happened over the last I don't know, we want
<v Speaker 1>to say maybe decade roughly, probably because he was at
<v Speaker 1>least he was maybe like five or six when he
<v Speaker 1>went in probably and I'm guessing is probably somewhere around
<v Speaker 1>seventeen when he graduates. When he graduates, does that seem accurate?
<v Speaker 3>Well, I would say I think.
<v Speaker 2>Totally a bit younger at this point in time.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I think in Britain, because I watch a lot
<v Speaker 1>of British shows, I think the age that they get
<v Speaker 1>sent to boarding school Nowish is like eightish.
<v Speaker 3>But if his family were.
<v Speaker 1>Just not wanting to deal with him, which it sounds like,
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure, they sent him to boarding school as soon
<v Speaker 1>as you literally could, so I wouldn't be surprised if
<v Speaker 1>he was going to boarding school at five sex, even
<v Speaker 1>though I don't think.
<v Speaker 2>That's common, and it's clear he's formed this idea, and
<v Speaker 2>you know, the ghost of Christmas Past walks us through
<v Speaker 2>all of these various points in time where we see
<v Speaker 2>the foundation of emotional neglect that he sees the world
<v Speaker 2>through repeat itself. There's moments where you see young Ebenezer
<v Speaker 2>connecting to people and engaging with people, but you also
<v Speaker 2>simultaneously hear him praise the teacher that taught him the
<v Speaker 2>most important lessons he learned, which were to kind of
<v Speaker 2>you know, focus and focus on finance and that to
<v Speaker 2>lean into what you're good at.
<v Speaker 1>And he also which I've caught for the maybe the
<v Speaker 1>first time ever seen this movie, like I don't know
<v Speaker 1>two thousand times, probably I know all the dialogue, which
<v Speaker 1>I practiced today because I was like, do you really
<v Speaker 1>know of the dialogue? I know all of it. Is
<v Speaker 1>that when the right at the end of the school
<v Speaker 1>scene when Ebenezer is the oldest going to see him
<v Speaker 1>at the school and the teacher tells him don't tip
<v Speaker 1>the driver. So also I think he's also getting shitty information,
<v Speaker 1>like shitty info from these men that he puts on
<v Speaker 1>a pedestal, right, because we also know that Jacob and
<v Speaker 1>what is the other brother's.
<v Speaker 2>Name in this one.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's two of them.
<v Speaker 2>There are two of them, but that's only because they
<v Speaker 2>put the two critics in it.
<v Speaker 1>There's oh yeah, that's what be surprised of. Their names
<v Speaker 1>are Jacob and Morley Marley.
<v Speaker 2>No, it's like Jacob and Eric or something.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
<v Speaker 1>But also that also shows like when you're taught lessons
<v Speaker 1>by people, and you're only taught lessons by one people,
<v Speaker 1>one person, versus having like a mother and a father
<v Speaker 1>and aunts and uncles and all of that kind of shit,
<v Speaker 1>Like he only has this one teacher and then these
<v Speaker 1>other two men that he idolizes because they're so rich.
<v Speaker 3>So like he also is.
<v Speaker 1>Getting a lot of impact from the outside world telling
<v Speaker 1>him that money is the most important thing. I mean, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>if you want to talk about attachment, we attach to
<v Speaker 1>whatever we can as we're growing up. So if he's
<v Speaker 1>being kept at school, then his only relationships with adults
<v Speaker 1>at least are with teachers, and so then the version
<v Speaker 1>of him that's like, well, I want to have value,
<v Speaker 1>I want to please an authority figure of some sort,
<v Speaker 1>instead of it being like through my parents, I'm just
<v Speaker 1>gonna really please my professors and do really well at
<v Speaker 1>school and listen to everything they say. And yet, because
<v Speaker 1>we still have to get like our values and our
<v Speaker 1>social skills and our life lessons. And unfortunately he's getting
<v Speaker 1>them from these adults that are only or these muppets
<v Speaker 1>that are.
<v Speaker 3>Only he's an eagle, Sam Diego.
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that are only focusing on one part of his life,
<v Speaker 1>which is the education part, and then for the business part.
<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, he's getting this message almost like religious
<v Speaker 1>in nature from Sam the Eagle of you know, business
<v Speaker 1>is powerful, it's good that you're doing this, and yet
<v Speaker 1>and be a miser, pinch your pennies as much as
<v Speaker 1>you can.
<v Speaker 3>So those are like the life lessons he's left with.
<v Speaker 1>Because it feels like even when he meets Fuzzy Wig, right,
<v Speaker 1>which we see in all the versions that I've the
<v Speaker 1>other versions that I've seen all have he's kind of
<v Speaker 1>like a pushover businessman. He's kind of really really really lax,
<v Speaker 1>really chill, and you can tell that Ebenezer feels like
<v Speaker 1>he's kind of silly as compared to the other people
<v Speaker 1>that I think he's held in esteem, which I think
<v Speaker 1>makes sense for him to feel that way based on
<v Speaker 1>the seriousness with which business is talked about.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he calls him like, what a what a soft
<v Speaker 2>feather of a man he was or something. In this version,
<v Speaker 2>he always Fezziwig has always shown even though Scrooge has
<v Speaker 2>great fondness of him, and the memories really start to
<v Speaker 2>light up. There's Wiggs and we always had this Christmas party.
<v Speaker 2>You can see he clearly, you know, had such fondness
<v Speaker 2>for this, but yet it was a gentler kinder man. Interesting,
<v Speaker 2>that's who you attach, you because we can't help but
<v Speaker 2>attach and want to please somebody that's a parental figure.
<v Speaker 2>But we will stop trying to get that approval from
<v Speaker 2>people who won't give it. But that doesn't mean we'll
<v Speaker 2>stop trying to get it.
<v Speaker 1>Well. The inclusion of fazzi Wig or Fezziwig as a
<v Speaker 1>character in a Christmas story is an interesting one in
<v Speaker 1>that his first seems like his first substantial job out
<v Speaker 1>of school is with someone that is so contrary to
<v Speaker 1>the values that he was raised in at school, and
<v Speaker 1>that it doesn't have an impact on him the way
<v Speaker 1>that you would hope it would, you know, and like,
<v Speaker 1>you're right that instead of him seeing the contrasting positives
<v Speaker 1>of Fezziwig's lifestyle, he instead is still trying to like
<v Speaker 1>jam it into his value system. Like even as he's
<v Speaker 1>walking up in that scene and he's like, this party
<v Speaker 1>is really expensive, and fezzy Wig was like, what the
<v Speaker 1>fuck's your problem?
<v Speaker 3>Did like, it's first mess.
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna be generous, have fun, drink, dance, who cares.
<v Speaker 1>And you can kind of see how for Ebenezer it is.
<v Speaker 3>Not.
<v Speaker 1>It's just not how he views the world, which I
<v Speaker 1>think just goes to show more of that how much
<v Speaker 1>he values this way of thinking, in this way of being,
<v Speaker 1>and it is like he met someone who's like an
<v Speaker 1>extremely different religion and he can't square it, and so
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't really go into him. Like I think now
<v Speaker 1>at is older, he can view it as the memory
<v Speaker 1>with more perspective, but in the moment he can't reconcile
<v Speaker 1>how different this lifestyle is than the lifestyle he's been
<v Speaker 1>raised to believe to be true.
<v Speaker 2>And this movie kind of glossed it over because it's
<v Speaker 2>a kid's movie. But usually that Fezywig scene is a
<v Speaker 2>little bit longer in different versions of this, So that's
<v Speaker 2>one of the longer scenes. And whyat songer is because
<v Speaker 2>we start seeing the contrasting present Scrooge looking back on
<v Speaker 2>it with kind of old man eyes versus the younger
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge who can't quite release himself and is really starting
<v Speaker 2>to develop this more wooden version of himself before Bell
<v Speaker 2>brings it out of him. And that's the thing that
<v Speaker 2>kind of draws him out. His friends eventually can get
<v Speaker 2>it out of him. You see as Scrooge ages as
<v Speaker 2>we get into each different flashback, that that leaves him
<v Speaker 2>just a little bit more each time.
<v Speaker 1>And I think it's it's a really interesting story of
<v Speaker 1>how you can have these moments of turning it around.
<v Speaker 1>And it's not as easy as maybe we want to
<v Speaker 1>believe it is as easy as like having one good
<v Speaker 1>I mean it can be. You know, one person can
<v Speaker 1>enter your life and change it radically. And I think
<v Speaker 1>what we're seeing with Ebenezer and this is maybe more
<v Speaker 1>going into the attachment wounds.
<v Speaker 3>Part of it is.
<v Speaker 1>When you have gone through the emotional glect he's gone
<v Speaker 1>through growing up. Even though he's trying to emotionally remove
<v Speaker 1>himself from that, there's still that imprint of it, right,
<v Speaker 1>And I think for him what that looks like is
<v Speaker 1>I don't even know if he could let someone and well,
<v Speaker 1>I guess he can't, like Fezziwig or Bell actually get
<v Speaker 1>close to him. Like it even makes me wonder what
<v Speaker 1>the Bell thing, how much of it is I can't
<v Speaker 1>buy a house, which I think it's a big part
<v Speaker 1>of it. And then it also makes me curious if
<v Speaker 1>that's also a good excuse to keep her distant from him,
<v Speaker 1>Like I wonder if there's a part of him that
<v Speaker 1>does struggle with accepting. I'm sure this is true, accepting
<v Speaker 1>that kind of love, accepting such like positive, optimistic, you know,
<v Speaker 1>comfort love attention from both of those people would be
<v Speaker 1>really uncomfortable for someone like Scrooge, even though you would
<v Speaker 1>think it would do the opposite.
<v Speaker 2>Let's take a break here and we'll be back in
<v Speaker 2>a few so. Attachment wounds is a concept that gets
<v Speaker 2>talked about amongst therapists a whole lot and definitely has
<v Speaker 2>been something that Attachment trauma has been a folk of
<v Speaker 2>quite a few trainings that I've been taking over the
<v Speaker 2>past few years, and has been one of the things
<v Speaker 2>that's more entering the zeitgeist of our professional but I
<v Speaker 2>don't know if it's transcending into the social zitegeist as
<v Speaker 2>general of attachmounds. I know that we've been trying to
<v Speaker 2>understand that everyone's a narcissist, but no.
<v Speaker 1>The girls on the internet, and by the girls, I
<v Speaker 1>mean people in general love to talk about avoidant attachment,
<v Speaker 1>anxious attachment. It's become it has become very.
<v Speaker 2>Buzzy attachment styles.
<v Speaker 1>Attachment styles even use the word attachment. So even us
<v Speaker 1>talking about attachment wounds, we probably need to be very
<v Speaker 1>clear about what we mean when we say that.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because attachment wounds can help define what attachment style is.
<v Speaker 2>But I've seen many videos of everybody trying to understand
<v Speaker 2>what everybody's attachment style is and what that means, and
<v Speaker 2>it's become the next version of the Myers Briggs that
<v Speaker 2>drives me fucking nuts. But what attachment wounds are are
<v Speaker 2>things that happen to us over the course of our
<v Speaker 2>life that make us feel like we've gotten punished for
<v Speaker 2>showing the vulnerable side of ourself to someone else, and
<v Speaker 2>that can impact how readily, how willingly, how quickly, and
<v Speaker 2>how firmly we will attach to someone else. And as
<v Speaker 2>you can see from good old Ebenezer here, if you
<v Speaker 2>continually show someone that everything but them has no value,
<v Speaker 2>this attachment wound will work both ways. Is that one
<v Speaker 2>way is that they will show a great difficulty in
<v Speaker 2>connecting to other people because they will have a lot
<v Speaker 2>of trust issues. But also they will attach quite firmly
<v Speaker 2>to something else. An idea concept e Scurage. His attachment
<v Speaker 2>is not to people at all, but to success in business,
<v Speaker 2>being the smartest, richest guy. That is all he cares about.
<v Speaker 2>Other people's things are none of his concern. They're humbug
<v Speaker 2>and particularly Christmas. Scrooge doesn't hate everyone and everything else.
<v Speaker 2>He especially hates Christmas because while he watches everyone else
<v Speaker 2>attach and feel warm and comfortable, he realizes even more
<v Speaker 2>so how alone and unwanted he is. So he struggles
<v Speaker 2>with attachment wounds. So when we look at an attachment wound,
<v Speaker 2>it's an understanding that those happen at specific moments. It
<v Speaker 2>can be a breakup, it can be trying to appeal
<v Speaker 2>for the love of a parent. It can be little things.
<v Speaker 2>It can be, like Hannah said, loose little things that
<v Speaker 2>happen over and over and over again, where you're appealing
<v Speaker 2>for a parent to care about you when you fall
<v Speaker 2>and they don't even look at you. Or your spouse
<v Speaker 2>or partner is looking for someone to care that they
<v Speaker 2>at a hard day and you can't pull yourself out
<v Speaker 2>of the TV or your phone. Eventually they start seeking
<v Speaker 2>that connection from somewhere or someone else. Understanding these wounds
<v Speaker 2>happen all the time in these little moments, and they
<v Speaker 2>build and sometimes they're really big ones. But it's through
<v Speaker 2>these we can through the balance of these wounds. And
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the opposite word I would want
<v Speaker 2>to say is of an attachment wound, but the positive
<v Speaker 2>attachment moments we have.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think a Gottmann term could even
<v Speaker 1>be like bits of connection, like moments in which connection
<v Speaker 1>is reciprocated and rewarded.
<v Speaker 2>Right, and it forms a stronger bond. The things we
<v Speaker 2>get a stronger bond to, we will start appealing to more.
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately for Scrooge, for him that was money and business success,
<v Speaker 2>but understanding that attachment style is formed out of the
<v Speaker 2>interaction of both of these. Not just like my mommy
<v Speaker 2>loved me. No, it's much more than that.
<v Speaker 1>And I think he's an interesting case of because he
<v Speaker 1>would be someone where I could see people arguing, even him,
<v Speaker 1>arguing that that doesn't exist for him because he maybe
<v Speaker 1>he got sent to a nice school and he always
<v Speaker 1>had his needs met, his literal needs met. And I
<v Speaker 1>think that can also be what keeps people from recognizing
<v Speaker 1>something like this within themselves, even especially if it's connected
<v Speaker 1>to their childhood or their relationship to their parents, is
<v Speaker 1>that it's just confusing to be like, well, I did
<v Speaker 1>get everything I needed technically, so I can't have a
<v Speaker 1>problem like this, Or I wasn't abused, so I shouldn't
<v Speaker 1>be having an issue like this, And so it's good
<v Speaker 1>to recognize that it can be more nuanced than that. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>exactly exactly, because it matters. It matters how it makes
<v Speaker 1>you feel, It matters how the other person responds, It
<v Speaker 1>matters how we perceive the interaction going. Like I think
<v Speaker 1>we can see Ebenezer, like we already kind of talked
<v Speaker 1>about him kind of having to shift his reality to
<v Speaker 1>make it make sense for himself. Right, he has to
<v Speaker 1>talk about it in this really specific way of no,
<v Speaker 1>like it was fine, it wasn't a big deal.
<v Speaker 2>Well more so it made me the man I am today.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly exactly like I wouldn't be who I was
<v Speaker 1>if I didn't have to go through all this hard shit, right,
<v Speaker 1>And I think, and that's very and it makes a
<v Speaker 1>lot of sense that people come to that conclusion. And
<v Speaker 1>it also makes it really hard to be flexible around
<v Speaker 1>things that we actually needed and things that we really
<v Speaker 1>wanted and needed somebody to say or point out or
<v Speaker 1>support us with. And so it would make a lot
<v Speaker 1>of sense that any attachment that Ebenezer makes is on
<v Speaker 1>his terms only, which means he is not allowing himself
<v Speaker 1>to really be connected to anyone else because that's not
<v Speaker 1>safe for him.
<v Speaker 2>It is absolutely not. And I think as you were
<v Speaker 2>talking about that, it occurred to me that there's another
<v Speaker 2>side of the attachment thing that becomes really apparent in
<v Speaker 2>behavior later on. Is that we learn vicariously by watching
<v Speaker 2>our caregivers and our parents. But one of the things
<v Speaker 2>that people don't often connect to is that we learn
<v Speaker 2>whatever is adaptive. We don't just learn whatever is societally approvable.
<v Speaker 2>And when you think about Scrooge, he is more closely
<v Speaker 2>mirroring the behavior of his father, who showed him that
<v Speaker 2>you can successfully lock out somebody you don't like, and
<v Speaker 2>that if you take on that behavior, you can be stronger,
<v Speaker 2>even though it hurt Young Scrooge. Old Scrooge who forms
<v Speaker 2>this narrative just made me the man I am today.
<v Speaker 2>All these beatings and ignoring and being left alone, and
<v Speaker 2>I learned to be smart and I learned to survive. No,
<v Speaker 2>that's adapting. But he also took on the knowledge and
<v Speaker 2>then later mirrored and mimicked it by acting exactly like
<v Speaker 2>the person that hurt him, and that shows up in
<v Speaker 2>behavior all the time.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, have you seen the new Frankenstein movie?
<v Speaker 2>Not yet?
<v Speaker 1>It's freaking awesome. You need to see it on the
<v Speaker 1>biggest TV you have. It's so but it is like
<v Speaker 1>exactly what you just said happens, which is I have
<v Speaker 1>I have become my father that I hate and that
<v Speaker 1>I've been doing all this to spite, but yet I
<v Speaker 1>become him.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I'll watch it on my biggest TV upstairs
<v Speaker 2>one of these days. The biggest TV I have is
<v Speaker 2>pretty good and I would like to see it. Looks
<v Speaker 2>like it's good.
<v Speaker 1>And I think, as we're talking about this, what it's
<v Speaker 1>bringing to mind for me is I worked with a
<v Speaker 1>lot of kids that have been diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder,
<v Speaker 1>which is when a kid has been abused neglected, But
<v Speaker 1>really a lot of it is more about that you
<v Speaker 1>didn't have a solid attachment to someone, either because you
<v Speaker 1>were bounced around to different caregivers, or your caregivers didn't
<v Speaker 1>take care of you well and neglected do in some
<v Speaker 1>capacity or mistreated you in some capacity, or even if
<v Speaker 1>you had a caregiver that maybe was around, but they
<v Speaker 1>were depressed and so you didn't get the emotional attachment
<v Speaker 1>stuff that we need to get from a caregiver in
<v Speaker 1>our life. And when you were talking earlierhand about hoarding,
<v Speaker 1>that also connects to this for me in that when
<v Speaker 1>I worked with kids that had reactive attachment disorder or
<v Speaker 1>RAD for short, they would do a lot of hoarding
<v Speaker 1>behaviors because they didn't feel like they were in control.
<v Speaker 1>They knew that people, the adults in their lives didn't
<v Speaker 1>necessarily want to or were able to take care of them.
<v Speaker 1>And so a way that you survive, like you guys
<v Speaker 1>are both talking about, like the ways that you adapt
<v Speaker 1>and survive is by hoarding resources when they are available
<v Speaker 1>to you.
<v Speaker 3>So kids with RAD will hoard food and.
<v Speaker 1>Not fun food, Like I've had kids with RAD that
<v Speaker 1>would like hoard like cake mix, like the box powder
<v Speaker 1>that's not good by itself, or like cans of vegetables.
<v Speaker 1>Like it's not like kids that are stealing candy bars
<v Speaker 1>and cookies.
<v Speaker 3>It's just truly like they're seeing.
<v Speaker 1>Food and they're like, I don't know when I will
<v Speaker 1>see food again, so I'm gonna take it. And that
<v Speaker 1>can be when they've even lived with a secure caregiver
<v Speaker 1>for a while, those behaviors will show up. And so
<v Speaker 1>I think, like another version of this is what we're
<v Speaker 1>seeing with Ebenezer, which is I can control how much
<v Speaker 1>money I make. I've learned how to do that, Like
<v Speaker 1>I develop the skills to do that with the few
<v Speaker 1>caregivers slash teachers I've had, And it does make you
<v Speaker 1>feel safer because it doesn't involve anybody else. And so
<v Speaker 1>when I've worked with kids that have more of the
<v Speaker 1>inhibited RAD type, which is him in a lot of ways,
<v Speaker 1>which is I don't really get close to anybody. I
<v Speaker 1>don't let anyone get close to me. I act like
<v Speaker 1>everyone can go fuck themselves, and I will get what
<v Speaker 1>I can and I can get it, and I will
<v Speaker 1>keep it for myself, I wouldn't be shocked if maybe
<v Speaker 1>when Ebenezer was a kid, and if I worked with him,
<v Speaker 1>I maybe could have given him a RAD diagnosis based
<v Speaker 1>on him circumstances. But I think, yeah, this hoarding of
<v Speaker 1>wealth can be a definite version of that.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm sure it can be. And as you watch
<v Speaker 2>him in this old age before the spirit's intervened, think
<v Speaker 2>about how many losses he's had and how much further
<v Speaker 2>into that he retreats each time. You see it as
<v Speaker 2>a kid, but he's also when he's old. He's lost
<v Speaker 2>his sister, he's lost his business partner and friend, he's
<v Speaker 2>lost Belle. Who is left besides cratch It that he
<v Speaker 2>attaches to and the way he attaches to cratch It
<v Speaker 2>is pretty rad.
<v Speaker 1>And his nephew too, And he has someone in his
<v Speaker 1>life who is like truly open arms to him, right,
<v Speaker 1>like you can do he can do whatever to his nephew,
<v Speaker 1>and his nephew is still like, yo, you can come
<v Speaker 1>to Christmas.
<v Speaker 3>We'll always have.
<v Speaker 2>You and his cnicle gun when you're not here.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And his.
<v Speaker 1>Total removal response rejection response is yeah, a form of RAD.
<v Speaker 1>I've worked with plenty of kids that they get adopt
<v Speaker 1>did or they get into a caregiver situation with a
<v Speaker 1>secure caregiver for years sometimes before I worked with them,
<v Speaker 1>and they would still be very rejecting, like don't I
<v Speaker 1>don't want to be hugged, I don't want to be touched,
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to don't tell me you love me.
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to tell you I love you. And
<v Speaker 1>when I work with the parents, I would encourage the
<v Speaker 1>parents to chill the fuck out. And what I mean
<v Speaker 1>by that is, don't put pressure on the kid. They
<v Speaker 1>need time. Maybe it's going to be years and years
<v Speaker 1>and years, if at all, to really know if they
<v Speaker 1>can be vulnerable to you, Because that's really what it
<v Speaker 1>is is can I am I ever going to be
<v Speaker 1>safe enough, safe enough to trust enough to be squishy
<v Speaker 1>and vulnerable to you? Because it's not just whether Ebenezer
<v Speaker 1>feels love for his nephew or love for Crashed, or
<v Speaker 1>love who for whoever, for Bell, which.
<v Speaker 2>He does in his way, but the more the culture
<v Speaker 2>he gets, the more he rejects.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not that's much whether he's capable of feeling
<v Speaker 1>love for them. It's whether he feels like it won't
<v Speaker 1>kill him emotionally literally maybe even to be open about
<v Speaker 1>that love. That's really what can feel almost intolerably uncomfortable
<v Speaker 1>and unsafe when someone has has deep attachment wounds. Is
<v Speaker 1>then me asking them to open up to someone is
<v Speaker 1>truly like I'm saying, I want you to rip your
<v Speaker 1>heart out, and I want to hold it in your hands,
<v Speaker 1>and I want you to put it in someone else's
<v Speaker 1>hands who you just have to trust. Isn't gonna like
<v Speaker 1>take that heart and just shove it between their fists
<v Speaker 1>and squeeze it and then shove it onto the ground
<v Speaker 1>and step on it. Because that's what his parents did.
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean, Like, that's where these woundes
<v Speaker 1>come from. Is you had someone when you were a kid.
<v Speaker 1>They did not hold your heart the way they should
<v Speaker 1>have if they did it all. And so how are
<v Speaker 1>you to trust that anyone else could do that?
<v Speaker 3>Why would you do that?
<v Speaker 2>And his nephew, at least the book implies. It never
<v Speaker 2>clearly states, but his sister died young, but it seems
<v Speaker 2>to imply she died, possibly in childbirth, So yet another
<v Speaker 2>extra layer of complication of accepting that nephew. Because yet again,
<v Speaker 2>something new and good can come into your life and
<v Speaker 2>take away from you. So should you trust it? Should
<v Speaker 2>you let it in? You might want to let it
<v Speaker 2>in because it's the last piece, but also, nah, that's
<v Speaker 2>going to get me hurt, so you stay frozen out.
<v Speaker 2>When I worked with kids, so there's one kid in
<v Speaker 2>particular who was absolutely head read. And remember he eventually
<v Speaker 2>got adopted, and it was a struggle at first, and
<v Speaker 2>you'd see like he was really attaching hard to this
<v Speaker 2>person that was adopting him. And then once the adoptions
<v Speaker 2>started getting closer, behaviors turned up almost as a test,
<v Speaker 2>will you love me at my worst?
<v Speaker 1>No, they will test the absolute shit out of you.
<v Speaker 1>Which is also what I used to have to coach
<v Speaker 1>parents through, is that this kid is going to test
<v Speaker 1>and your job is to stay calm and consistent with
<v Speaker 1>them and just keep saying like, no matter what happens,
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going anywhere. Do you wonder as you're saying that,
<v Speaker 1>do you wonder with Bell if some of what he
<v Speaker 1>was doing was like unconscious testing of her.
<v Speaker 2>I think he was probably at that point a little
<v Speaker 2>too young to recognize it, but he may have been.
<v Speaker 2>I think some part of it was. But I think
<v Speaker 2>at that point he's so locked into the value that
<v Speaker 2>he had that the only way he felt he could
<v Speaker 2>be good enough was to lean into the strength side
<v Speaker 2>of it. So it's kind of like a missing a
<v Speaker 2>forest for the trees kind of thing. Hey, I need
<v Speaker 2>to have business needs to be doing well enough that
<v Speaker 2>I can support you and you can marry me, so
<v Speaker 2>you don't leave me. That I have to be good enough,
<v Speaker 2>and you have to see me it's good enough, and
<v Speaker 2>I have to see me it's good enough, and that
<v Speaker 2>the only way your silly feelings can't be in those
<v Speaker 2>are silly. It has to be I have to have
<v Speaker 2>enough business sense that it makes sense on the ledger
<v Speaker 2>for us to be married and me to be a
<v Speaker 2>good husband, where she just wants him to be present
<v Speaker 2>and there and him, you know, attend to her. And
<v Speaker 2>I think at some point she tells him that she
<v Speaker 2>feels like she's become like a golden idol or something,
<v Speaker 2>or that business has become a golden idol. There's some
<v Speaker 2>mention of that, like really elevating how she feels like
<v Speaker 2>she is left behind and not seen anymore and that's
<v Speaker 2>why she left.
<v Speaker 1>And what you're saying is is so real in the
<v Speaker 1>sense that when you grow up in this situation Ebenezer
<v Speaker 1>did with his parents. Also, it wouldn't ever occur to
<v Speaker 1>him that someone would just want to be with him
<v Speaker 1>because they love him. Like the idea of Belle not
<v Speaker 1>caring about the money stuff as much, that he doesn't
<v Speaker 1>have to demonstrate his value via money because she already
<v Speaker 1>believes that he is value is like another thing that
<v Speaker 1>would be hitting him like an alien belief.
<v Speaker 3>So it does maybe wonder too with him.
<v Speaker 1>Another way to think of it is maybe it really
<v Speaker 1>did surprise him that it would push her away that
<v Speaker 1>he has to wait untill he is enough money. Like
<v Speaker 1>I could also see because of how bought in he
<v Speaker 1>is to that as a value that of course she
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't want to get married either until I have enough money.
<v Speaker 3>And so we're both on the same page about that.
<v Speaker 1>So I also wonder if maybe it was quite shocking
<v Speaker 1>for him that that would actually break them apart instead
<v Speaker 1>of something that she would have like an inherent understanding of.
<v Speaker 2>I think that you're right that I think it does
<v Speaker 2>surprise him. But he also doesn't do anything to say no,
<v Speaker 2>wait stop, he doesn't.
<v Speaker 1>That's the rat of it all too, Like he's like
<v Speaker 1>well see there you go. Of course, on how he
<v Speaker 1>just walks away in that scene, right, she's singing and
<v Speaker 1>he's just like, Okay, well I guess this ain't gonna work,
<v Speaker 1>so he just walks away.
<v Speaker 2>It's like.
<v Speaker 1>Having again that awareness, like he doesn't have awareness about
<v Speaker 1>what even being in the middle relationally is like, right,
<v Speaker 1>he's only experienced the extremes, right, So when you've only
<v Speaker 1>experienced the extremes the kind of natural experiences that we have,
<v Speaker 1>seems so they're too comfortable.
<v Speaker 3>They're too they don't have.
<v Speaker 1>The chaos attached to them the way that their other
<v Speaker 1>experiences have. So that's a part of why they feel
<v Speaker 1>so uncomfortable. You mean, like kind of when we talk
<v Speaker 1>about like the window of tolerance in regards to trauma. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>that when you're used to, Yeah, when we were used
<v Speaker 1>to really elevated situations calm. It's like, i mean, like
<v Speaker 1>this is stereotype, right, And I'm sure we've all had
<v Speaker 1>this experience with clients where they have a trauma background
<v Speaker 1>and they're finally in a relationship that's Jill, and they
<v Speaker 1>can't stop talking about how boring it is it else
<v Speaker 1>and how there's something wrong with the fact that it's
<v Speaker 1>so boring and that they need to break up with
<v Speaker 1>them because it's not working, And I'll be like, are
<v Speaker 1>we bored or are we just like not so hyper
<v Speaker 1>aroused in a traumatized way that too.
<v Speaker 2>I think there's real struggle with people who have been
<v Speaker 2>in really chaotic situations that they only look for and
<v Speaker 2>register the extremes but don't understand the in betweens having,
<v Speaker 2>like normal relationships go through ups and downs, and sometimes
<v Speaker 2>you're a little more connected, sometimes you're a little less,
<v Speaker 2>but it's okay. And they're looking for that like complete
<v Speaker 2>toxic love situation because all the love they know and
<v Speaker 2>understand was toxic and came with severe ties consequences at
<v Speaker 2>the end of those toxic periods, Like if look at Scrooge,
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge only learned well, if I connect emotionally and assign
<v Speaker 2>emotional value to these things, I'm gonna get the extreme
<v Speaker 2>reaction of being abandoned and my family's gonna see me
<v Speaker 2>as a pain in the ass, and that my dad
<v Speaker 2>hates me. So if I attached him, I'm just gonna
<v Speaker 2>get hurt. But if I attach fully to money, I'm
<v Speaker 2>gonna get praise, and that's gonna be really good. So
<v Speaker 2>he struggles to recognize how hard he's shifting into that
<v Speaker 2>I love money and I need to do everything because
<v Speaker 2>money is the only way that I actually feel good enough,
<v Speaker 2>and he doesn't connect. In the minute Bell shows him yep, gonna,
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna go, he doesn't pursue her because he's just
<v Speaker 2>gonna get hurt, and he leans even further into money.
<v Speaker 1>So sad and I feel like with I think it's
<v Speaker 1>also interesting that with Ebenezer, he the first relationship that
<v Speaker 1>he tries to repair after having the miraculous dreams and
<v Speaker 1>all that piece is a relationship that he's only connected
<v Speaker 1>through business. With Bob Cratchittt is the first person that
<v Speaker 1>he can even consider to repair a relationship with because
<v Speaker 1>the attachment to Bob is through is as his employee,
<v Speaker 1>and that he is almost I don't want to say
<v Speaker 1>guaranteed a positive response, but more guaranteed than maybe Bell,
<v Speaker 1>than maybe with Belle.
<v Speaker 2>You have a very good point. The Cratches the second
<v Speaker 2>person he goes to. He goes to the nephew first,
<v Speaker 2>but he does way more work with Bob, which I
<v Speaker 2>think lends very strongly to your point. I think he
<v Speaker 2>always connects with the nephew first because he goes to
<v Speaker 2>the family bond, but he doesn't stay very long. He
<v Speaker 2>just kind of he kind of like hits and miss
<v Speaker 2>unlets his nephew know, like, Hey, I am going to
<v Speaker 2>come see you on Christmas. But then also he dips out.
<v Speaker 2>And I know in this version, like the nephew shows
<v Speaker 2>up at Cratchit's and they have like a big party.
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that happens in the other ones.
<v Speaker 1>But you're right in that with Bob, he can use
<v Speaker 1>the language that he's already comfortable speaking, Like the way
<v Speaker 1>that he shows Bob love and to repair the relationship
<v Speaker 1>is I will give you a raise, I'll pay off
<v Speaker 1>your house, and like I'll help tiny Tim get what
<v Speaker 1>he needs, like I'll spoil you monetarily as a way
<v Speaker 1>to become attached with each other, Which isn't I mean,
<v Speaker 1>like that's it's the yeah, you're right hand, It's like
<v Speaker 1>the safest way. And I don't think it's like the
<v Speaker 1>worst thing. I think it's just him having to walk
<v Speaker 1>before he walk before he runs.
<v Speaker 3>I don't think it's a bad thing at all.
<v Speaker 1>I think, in fact, it would be an example of
<v Speaker 1>I talk a lot about with clients about out how
<v Speaker 1>we instead of trying to correct something with someone new,
<v Speaker 1>why don't we choose a person that we've known for
<v Speaker 1>a while and share something with them first to see
<v Speaker 1>if there's a better outcome, right, Because people always want
<v Speaker 1>to try it out on someone new. They want to
<v Speaker 1>wait until they have this new experience so that they
<v Speaker 1>can show out these new ideas and awareness that they
<v Speaker 1>now have of themselves. And that's when boundary setting can
<v Speaker 1>really fail when we try to do it with someone
<v Speaker 1>new versus with someone that we already have a connection.
<v Speaker 2>With and end up love bombing and not recognizing that
<v Speaker 2>someone else might look at that and go WHOA way
<v Speaker 2>too much, way too soon. Yeah, and we can throw
<v Speaker 2>the other person who's trying to do this miraculous recovery
<v Speaker 2>of all the things that have always been wrong with me,
<v Speaker 2>which is just such an ADHD thing to do. But
<v Speaker 2>these people that go through this exact thing you're talking
<v Speaker 2>about the consequence of that can be people who have
<v Speaker 2>not encountered what is happening here, going like, ah way
<v Speaker 2>too much. What we see in that cycle is that
<v Speaker 2>this person is reaching out for connection and they're showing
<v Speaker 2>a bit for connection, and it's getting rejected because they're
<v Speaker 2>too much and they're showing too much, and they're trying
<v Speaker 2>to fix and place way too much emotional weight on
<v Speaker 2>this relationship, and the other person's like, I'm trying to
<v Speaker 2>figure out if I like hanging out with you. This
<v Speaker 2>is a little bit, a little bit early. And there's
<v Speaker 2>a line from Supertroopers. I don't know if I've said
<v Speaker 2>on this show before, but I do love Supertroopers. It
<v Speaker 2>makes me laugh. Is desperation is a stinky cologne, And man,
<v Speaker 2>is that not more true in a relationship and you
<v Speaker 2>feel somebody trying to do that thing. Hannah talk about
<v Speaker 2>it like I'm gonna fix everything it's ever been wrong
<v Speaker 2>because I learned this new skill and now I'm gonna
<v Speaker 2>fix everything. And everything with you is just gonna work out,
<v Speaker 2>and you're gonna be the person in my dreams. And
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure that's what the movie with Joseph Gordon
<v Speaker 2>Levin that we did was about five Hundred Days of
<v Speaker 2>the Summer kind of about that thing, and like, no, you
<v Speaker 2>fell in love with the idea of a person, not
<v Speaker 2>the person.
<v Speaker 1>And it's also a shortcut, right, I'm gonna start over
<v Speaker 1>fresh with someone new, instead of having to do the
<v Speaker 1>more vulnerable work, which is go to someone that already
<v Speaker 1>has a history with me and I have a reputation
<v Speaker 1>with them, and I have to see the true vulnerability
<v Speaker 1>is like showing up and then seeing if things can
<v Speaker 1>turn around. Is like we're like I was kind of
<v Speaker 1>talking about, like opening up my heart a little bit
<v Speaker 1>and seeing if they can receive it or not, and
<v Speaker 1>tolerating that experience, which is much more brutal than or
<v Speaker 1>feels much more brutal than going to someone new who
<v Speaker 1>has no idea of who you are that you can
<v Speaker 1>create a new idea with. And his nephew speaks through
<v Speaker 1>the language of love, you know. His nephew is very
<v Speaker 1>like warm and fuzzy, and that is really uncomfortable. It's
<v Speaker 1>making me think of because Hannah and I watched Scrooge
<v Speaker 1>last night, which is the Bill Murray retelling of this story.
<v Speaker 1>And actually Bill Murray, I think, does a really good job,
<v Speaker 1>maybe the best job, of conveying this thing we're talking
<v Speaker 1>about right now.
<v Speaker 3>But in his story it's his brother, not his nephew.
<v Speaker 1>And the way that Bill Murray looks so not distraught,
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you have a better word for it, Hannah.
<v Speaker 1>But he looks so emotionally uncomfortable around his younger brother,
<v Speaker 1>and not because he doesn't like his brother. You can
<v Speaker 1>actually tell that the more he likes his brother, the
<v Speaker 1>more he's like, I gotta get the fuck out of here.
<v Speaker 1>It's like he can't tolerate being around his brother because
<v Speaker 1>of all the warm and fuzzy energy around his brother,
<v Speaker 1>and how he doesn't know how to deal with that,
<v Speaker 1>and so he just doesn't even try, and he just
<v Speaker 1>like skips out. And I think that's a really realistic
<v Speaker 1>version of a really realistic portrayal of what we're discussing,
<v Speaker 1>which is how when you aren't used to these kind
<v Speaker 1>of things being around it.
<v Speaker 3>Will make you uncomfortable.
<v Speaker 1>And it's good when you work with clients to name
<v Speaker 1>that so that they're prepared for that and so they
<v Speaker 1>don't misunderstand the discomfort for like I'm doing the wrong
<v Speaker 1>thing or this isn't right, or however they might very
<v Speaker 1>understandably miss construe or identify the discomfort they're feeling. That
<v Speaker 1>It is one of the many things in therapy where
<v Speaker 1>you have the opposite reaction that then you think you
<v Speaker 1>would have, and so it is our duty as therapist
<v Speaker 1>to give people a heads up so that they don't
<v Speaker 1>free can leave, which I can understand if they did,
<v Speaker 1>and that they have to sit in the discomfort of
<v Speaker 1>the squishiness of the vulnerability. But yeah, his nephew, even
<v Speaker 1>though you think he'd be like the safest option, in
<v Speaker 1>some ways, I think will be the hardest for him.
<v Speaker 2>I'll definitely be the hardest, agree, because there's real emotional
<v Speaker 2>connection there and real work to do that's going to
<v Speaker 2>go far beyond just that employer relationship, no doubt.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because it's a good point too that with cratch It,
<v Speaker 1>they have that natural boundary, yeah, of employer and employee,
<v Speaker 1>and so he can use that to his advantage, whether.
<v Speaker 3>He's and I don't.
<v Speaker 1>And I'll say I don't think he's doing that consciously,
<v Speaker 1>but that there is safety with that natural boundary, yep.
<v Speaker 2>And he can yet again step in and use the
<v Speaker 2>money that he's learned to control and stabilize the world
<v Speaker 2>with to control and stabilize that relationship. Cratch It will
<v Speaker 2>not leave songs he pays improperly and you know, keeps
<v Speaker 2>this little boy from dying of whatever disease he has,
<v Speaker 2>and then he can have a pseudo Marley to have
<v Speaker 2>a connection with, but just better. But he doesn't have
<v Speaker 2>to reinvent the wheel because it gets real clear that
<v Speaker 2>the relationship with the nephew is gonna it's going to
<v Speaker 2>take some more time because also the nephew is not
<v Speaker 2>going to know that Scrooge saw him with the ghost
<v Speaker 2>of Christmas present, going well, it's not a rat and
<v Speaker 2>it's not a cockroach. What's something else that nobody wants
<v Speaker 2>at Christmas? Oh Scrooge, Oh, that's going to take some
<v Speaker 2>time for him to repair. Even though the movie shows
<v Speaker 2>us he's recognizing like, oh, yeah, I'm kind of an asshole.
<v Speaker 2>Huh Yeah, that's not the way emotions work. You might
<v Speaker 2>have context for it in that moment when you're vulnerable
<v Speaker 2>and learning, but the more protective voice and parts of
<v Speaker 2>you were going to show up later and be like, ah,
<v Speaker 2>this motherfucker inviting you to dinner is the same one
<v Speaker 2>that said you were less desirable than a rat and
<v Speaker 2>a cockroach, Right, that's who him. M M humbug.
<v Speaker 1>All right, let's take a break care and we'll be
<v Speaker 1>right back to talk about values and the divine intervention
<v Speaker 1>aspect of this story, all right, So what made me
<v Speaker 1>think of that, Ben, is what you said about the
<v Speaker 1>context in which he receives Scrooge that information. Is that
<v Speaker 1>Something that does propel the story obviously is the fact
<v Speaker 1>that he's having a wild experience that is forcing him
<v Speaker 1>to confront his past trauma and attachment wounds, but also
<v Speaker 1>his values. How that reaches through to all the parts
<v Speaker 1>of his life, both past, present and the future.
<v Speaker 2>It sure does. And it's real clear that it's not
<v Speaker 2>just a bit of bad meat or a piece of
<v Speaker 2>rotten cheese. I know that, right, But instead it's a
<v Speaker 2>divine intervention with the intent to make a change on
<v Speaker 2>a profoundly lost man, to keep him from getting more lost,
<v Speaker 2>and sort of the story kind of implies that the
<v Speaker 2>divine intervention is coming from Marley or someone releasing Marlee
<v Speaker 2>to go talk to him as the only voice that
<v Speaker 2>will reach him. But the first person that comes to
<v Speaker 2>talk to him from beyond the grave is Jacob Marley.
<v Speaker 2>All in chains with chain to the money, which is
<v Speaker 2>a really powerful vision that's also been enduring of like
<v Speaker 2>carrying around all these heavy chains, chain to the things,
<v Speaker 2>change to your sins and being. He kind of implied
<v Speaker 2>he's not necessarily stuck in hell, but stuck in purgatory
<v Speaker 2>with these chains to carry around until he can pay
<v Speaker 2>for his sins. If ever and warning Scrooge, hey, I'm
<v Speaker 2>still stuck here. You have time. I don't. But we
<v Speaker 2>see these values that he's developed start to crack after
<v Speaker 2>each of these spirits start showing him his own life.
<v Speaker 2>Moment after moment, he's forced to consider, how did I
<v Speaker 2>form these beliefs and do I still believe them? Value
<v Speaker 2>formation is a pretty powerful component of how we see
<v Speaker 2>and understand the world, and if you talk about things
<v Speaker 2>through a cognitive behavioral lens, they're the deepest and most
<v Speaker 2>difficult layer to challenge and change. You can't challenge and
<v Speaker 2>change them without a very big event happening. Something's got
<v Speaker 2>to really make you reconsider how you view things, or
<v Speaker 2>you won't because these are the things that I've been taught.
<v Speaker 2>They're tried and true. When we think about Scrooge, what
<v Speaker 2>do we see his values as well?
<v Speaker 1>I would say he values money, obviously, but I would
<v Speaker 1>say underneath money what he values is independence, hard work,
<v Speaker 1>hyper individualism. You know, even earlier when they were talking
<v Speaker 1>about the two guys come in to get donations and
<v Speaker 1>he's like, why don't they work hard or something like that.
<v Speaker 1>He's like, he is espousing this idea that, yeah, bootstrap
<v Speaker 1>shit like the meritocracy lie that our country loves, which
<v Speaker 1>is that if you just worked hard enough that you
<v Speaker 1>would be fine, which in his story I guess technically
<v Speaker 1>is true in that he just devoted his whole self
<v Speaker 1>to making money and he is idolizing that about himself. Right,
<v Speaker 1>So I think he would say that he values hard work,
<v Speaker 1>and he values being financially literate and being I don't
<v Speaker 1>think he would say cheap or whatever they call him.
<v Speaker 1>I think he would just say like responsible, frugal, you know,
<v Speaker 1>not concerned with frivolities. And underneath that value though that
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he would identify, is how that's connected
<v Speaker 1>to his feelings of like safety, security, control, power, all
<v Speaker 1>that kind of stuff that makes him feel like he's
<v Speaker 1>in control.
<v Speaker 3>Because that's also why not to get on a whole tangent.
<v Speaker 1>All those people are so invested in this idea of
<v Speaker 1>meritocracy in America, and people will I mean, I get
<v Speaker 1>into arguments sometimes with people in my life about the
<v Speaker 1>idea of meritocracy, and I think it's It goes back
<v Speaker 1>to this idea that it is. It is a safe,
<v Speaker 1>comforting idea for a lot of people that if you
<v Speaker 1>just work hard, you can kind of have total control
<v Speaker 1>over your future and over what happens to you. And
<v Speaker 1>so I think he's in that trap.
<v Speaker 2>Well, Scrooge is from the aristocracy already. I mean, yes,
<v Speaker 2>he's in that trap, but he's in that trap of
<v Speaker 2>trying to apply it to other people while not recognizing
<v Speaker 2>he's above.
<v Speaker 3>It exactly because he's exactly.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's basically That's all Dickens's work is examining
<v Speaker 2>the Victorian England and how fucking ridiculous it is that
<v Speaker 2>the rich just prey on the poor. That's David Copperfield.
<v Speaker 2>All these stories that are about that, and all of
<v Speaker 2>them have that lesson in there. It's clear that Dickens
<v Speaker 2>was trying to kind of create that message of like hey, hey, hey, no, like,
<v Speaker 2>are you serious right now, Oliver Twist, Like we're you
<v Speaker 2>see where these kids are living in a workhouse. Who's
<v Speaker 2>making money off that? It ain't them. They're going to
<v Speaker 2>be living this kind of life, working in workhouses their
<v Speaker 2>entire life unless something magical happens, some big intervention, and
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge is absolutely lampooning that idea that the meritocracy is real. Like, no,
<v Speaker 2>if you were born rich and you had all these advantages,
<v Speaker 2>then you can expect to be rich. But get out
<v Speaker 2>of here rich men thinking that all these poor people
<v Speaker 2>can just work really hard like I did. Like you
<v Speaker 2>mean at that private, fancy boarding school you went to
<v Speaker 2>and weren't in the workhouses that one. That's where you
<v Speaker 2>learned all these things from people your parents paid to
<v Speaker 2>teach them, do.
<v Speaker 1>You, And that's where he gets challenged values wise. I
<v Speaker 1>think with like being shown Bob Cratchett, right, is that
<v Speaker 1>that's also someone who works really hard, who works his
<v Speaker 1>fucking ass off, because Scrooge makes him work his ass off,
<v Speaker 1>and yet he lives in a shithole. He can't get
<v Speaker 1>his kid proper care that they are not doing well. Nope, financially,
<v Speaker 1>even though that guy is working his absolute ass off
<v Speaker 1>and really trying to be everything that Scrooge wants.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he won't even pay for him to be warm
<v Speaker 2>at work, which means he's probable to get sick and
<v Speaker 2>die himself, and then his family will land in the poorhouse.
<v Speaker 2>It's really quite a pointed message of no, rich Man,
<v Speaker 2>it is not quite what you think. And yet people,
<v Speaker 2>I love that story, and yet again it's the fucking point.
<v Speaker 1>And it's very difficult to, like you were saying, challenge
<v Speaker 1>our values like we I mean, that's why I think
<v Speaker 1>in his story, he has like the most bananas experience
<v Speaker 1>where it really blows the doors off his brain right,
<v Speaker 1>like he's being visited by ghosts, Like even the introduction
<v Speaker 1>of Marley, I'm sure is trying to like soften his
<v Speaker 1>brain for the experience he's about to have, like we're
<v Speaker 1>going to crack this bitch open because it's about to.
<v Speaker 3>Get blown to smotherings.
<v Speaker 1>And so we do see people have big value shifts
<v Speaker 1>when something bananas happens in their lives, like in your
<v Speaker 1>death experience or a big loss of some sort, and
<v Speaker 1>they feel ready to challenge the idea that what they
<v Speaker 1>have been devoted to, the ideas that they've really cashed
<v Speaker 1>in on, maybe they're not really it. And that takes
<v Speaker 1>a lot of humility and introspection, like you really have
<v Speaker 1>to be willing to break down the way that you've lived.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, in the religious aspect, they call deconstructing. I
<v Speaker 1>think that term is from when people leave evangelical Christianity specifically,
<v Speaker 1>that's the way I've heard it be used, but I
<v Speaker 1>think it's an apt term, like you have to deconstruct
<v Speaker 1>yourself and your identity and what you believe to be
<v Speaker 1>true about the world from like the studs up perhaps,
<v Speaker 1>and he would have to do that, and that's a
<v Speaker 1>really hard thing for most people to do, and it's
<v Speaker 1>a very confronting thing to do.
<v Speaker 2>Even on a non religious and non values thing. Once
<v Speaker 2>you started talking about deconstruction, American history class started occurring
<v Speaker 2>in my head again, which you know, seems a little
<v Speaker 2>relevant right now as we talk about a British movie.
<v Speaker 2>But the post war period, for the Civil War, the reconstruction,
<v Speaker 2>the post Civil War period was called the reconstruction. And
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't called the reconstruction just because we were literally
<v Speaker 2>rebuilding things after the war. It was reconstructing the ideas
<v Speaker 2>and values of what our nation was to be because
<v Speaker 2>slavery was now ended. And yes, as from our you know,
<v Speaker 2>two movies ago, we did we know it got a
<v Speaker 2>little complicated and the change was a little resisted, and
<v Speaker 2>not just a little, a lot resisted, and a lot
<v Speaker 2>of horrible things still happened with Jim Crow laws and segregation.
<v Speaker 2>Things went through an intense period of revamping what the
<v Speaker 2>entire world is going to look like. And it took
<v Speaker 2>war to do that, to go like, hey, you can't
<v Speaker 2>keep slaves anymore. You just can't. Your economy cannot be
<v Speaker 2>based on that. We can't keep doing that. And the North,
<v Speaker 2>you're lying if you think you weren't benefiting because you
<v Speaker 2>were buying goods from the South, So like we're all
<v Speaker 2>kind of participating in and if we're not, well, slaver
<v Speaker 2>is not legal. And North you're still buying shit from
<v Speaker 2>the South. You're benefiting on that. And they had to
<v Speaker 2>recorrect all those values that were formed. People must go
<v Speaker 2>deconstruct and reconstruct. That's what happens during military training. That
<v Speaker 2>happens work training is what happens a lot of things.
<v Speaker 2>You have to go through periods where something big has
<v Speaker 2>to change in your life that forces you to confront
<v Speaker 2>the old habits, old beliefs, old ways of doing things
<v Speaker 2>and make them invalid and incompatible with the present way
<v Speaker 2>of living. And that's what happens to Scrooge is he's
<v Speaker 2>forced to deconstruct, Well, these are the ways we'd be safe.
<v Speaker 2>This is the way I keep black people locked out,
<v Speaker 2>and this is the way I'm actually better. And each
<v Speaker 2>moment we see if Scrooge's life makes us see that
<v Speaker 2>he's in fact lying to himself and he's miserable. He
<v Speaker 2>won't even give Bob enough coal to stay warm, and
<v Speaker 2>he won't even give himself enough light to see and
<v Speaker 2>read the books that he espouses to love, and he
<v Speaker 2>only leads work when's dark. What enrichment does he have?
<v Speaker 2>But would he ever have seen it that way had
<v Speaker 2>Spirits not come and gave him a transcendent experience?
<v Speaker 1>And for him, it's having that repeated confronting experience which
<v Speaker 1>sometimes we as therapist provide, unfortunately for our clients, but
<v Speaker 1>fortunately where it is shown to you that you actually
<v Speaker 1>do care about the things or value the things that
<v Speaker 1>you say that you don't. So he does care about
<v Speaker 1>what people say about him. He does care when they
<v Speaker 1>see both the moment where he gets made fun of
<v Speaker 1>at his nephews, but also that he cares when he
<v Speaker 1>gets spoken in a loving way at Bob Cratchett's house.
<v Speaker 1>And he cares a lot of I mean, he has
<v Speaker 1>like a full mental breakdown when he realizes that no
<v Speaker 1>one gives a shit at his funeral, that no one
<v Speaker 1>cares that he died. People are talking mad shit about him.
<v Speaker 1>They just want his stuff. And it's really challenging for
<v Speaker 1>him that you say you value money, finances, your capital,
<v Speaker 1>and yet when people after your death are only talking
<v Speaker 1>about your capital as what they care about with you,
<v Speaker 1>like those pigs saying like who gets his money? It
<v Speaker 1>doesn't feel good. It actually really upsets you. So be real,
<v Speaker 1>you know, in that moment, death without talking is saying,
<v Speaker 1>be real, you do care. And so what you're saying
<v Speaker 1>you value and what your actions are connecting to value
<v Speaker 1>wise isn't really hitting what you actually actually actually emotionally
<v Speaker 1>care about.
<v Speaker 2>It is not And it takes yeah, busting that wide
<v Speaker 2>open to go like this, this is actually what you
<v Speaker 2>care about, Like yeah, you notice he didn't have any
<v Speaker 2>reaction to he knew whose jewelry that was, he knew
<v Speaker 2>whose bed curtains those where he's just dissociating from it
<v Speaker 2>and likese he's overloaded, But he didn't show the strong
<v Speaker 2>reaction to that. He showed the strong reaction to being
<v Speaker 2>seen as disposable, not mattering, and the kiddie versions of
<v Speaker 2>this outside of mister Magoo's Christmas Carol really kind of
<v Speaker 2>gloss over the robbers, like this version like showed like
<v Speaker 2>the spider and the creepy things, but you get kind
<v Speaker 2>of caught up in that it's a creepy spider and
<v Speaker 2>those things. To really understand what's happening here is these
<v Speaker 2>are people that like go in and scavenged the houses
<v Speaker 2>of rich people that died when they think no one's looking,
<v Speaker 2>and they're really like scummy and gross, and they're breaking
<v Speaker 2>down his value into what trinkets they can steal that
<v Speaker 2>might be worth a dollar. Yikes, You're being scavenged by
<v Speaker 2>buzzards and crows. That's what the imagery is here. And
<v Speaker 2>him seeing that he didn't react, and he never does
<v Speaker 2>to his things. He's never like, those are my things,
<v Speaker 2>that's my thing. It pains him to see he's discarded,
<v Speaker 2>not that he has no more value, and that's I
<v Speaker 2>think where you start to see a real shift. But man,
<v Speaker 2>this movie kind of let him off the hook light.
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if Mickey's Christmas Carolyn and cover
<v Speaker 2>that part, do they. Mister mcgoo's is the one that
<v Speaker 2>sticks out in my head most it's like I've never even.
<v Speaker 3>Heard of mister Chas either, no ever. I mean I
<v Speaker 3>know who mister is obviously.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, there's like a song from that because we
<v Speaker 2>watched that one a lot. There's like a song from
<v Speaker 2>that that sticks out of my head of him like
<v Speaker 2>singing about money ringle jingle coins out of they tingle.
<v Speaker 2>Oh how I love the sound and like the Burglar
<v Speaker 2>people basically sing another version of that song that really lands,
<v Speaker 2>but they're really creepy and gross, kind of like a
<v Speaker 2>master of the House kind of song like m And.
<v Speaker 1>If I was working with Ebenezer, Let's say in this hypothetical,
<v Speaker 1>I'm working with Ebenezer, he's had this experience. He comes
<v Speaker 1>and maybe hasn't changed yet, but he comes to my
<v Speaker 1>office and he's like, can you believe these people talking
<v Speaker 1>about me after my death and that they just wanted
<v Speaker 1>this thing that I have in this thing that I
<v Speaker 1>have and a strategy I could see me taking with
<v Speaker 1>someone like him is but isn't that what you But
<v Speaker 1>isn't that good?
<v Speaker 3>That's what you care about, right, Like, that's what you.
<v Speaker 1>Wanted to represent, is a bunch of stuff, and so
<v Speaker 1>you should feel good that that's what people care about,
<v Speaker 1>and that's what they want from you after your death.
<v Speaker 1>It's a bit of spitting in his soup, you know,
<v Speaker 1>kind of like leaning into his way of thinking as
<v Speaker 1>a way to challenge him, because then he would have
<v Speaker 1>to make the opposite argument to me in that back
<v Speaker 1>and forth, and that would have to require him challenging himself.
<v Speaker 1>Well no, I mean yeah, but I want them to like,
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, yeah, but you didn't say but you don't
<v Speaker 1>care about that, right, You're not fostering that. You don't
<v Speaker 1>care what people say about you. You don't care about
<v Speaker 1>having a good impression on people. That's not you, right,
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, And like I said, that's a technique that
<v Speaker 1>then puts.
<v Speaker 3>The ball back in your court as the client.
<v Speaker 1>You'd be like, oh, well, either I have to agree
<v Speaker 1>with what you're saying, which I don't want to, or
<v Speaker 1>I have to truly make an argument against my own
<v Speaker 1>verbalized beliefs. And that's why they say like bad therapists
<v Speaker 1>give advice, And what they mean by that in a
<v Speaker 1>lot of ways is.
<v Speaker 3>As a therapist, I'm not supposed to tell you the
<v Speaker 3>stuff like this.
<v Speaker 1>Necessarily, we ask you questions that then provoke you to
<v Speaker 1>tell yourself, which is harder to ignore.
<v Speaker 2>Right, and let you sit in it. A good therapist
<v Speaker 2>knows that exact moment when you get the aha, or
<v Speaker 2>you see someone's eyes going back and forth and then
<v Speaker 2>like changing their facial expression, their affecting Oh wait, you
<v Speaker 2>mean it's oh hah, that sucks. You learn to just
<v Speaker 2>go hmm, say nothing in those moments, let them sit
<v Speaker 2>in it.
<v Speaker 1>I think that that is a really helpful strategy to
<v Speaker 1>use with clients because them hearing it from themselves and
<v Speaker 1>experiencing it for themselves and being able to make that
<v Speaker 1>connection after we I'd let them sit in it or
<v Speaker 1>help them make that connection, right, because that's a big
<v Speaker 1>part of what we do. We help piece together the
<v Speaker 1>parts of the story that you don't can't always see
<v Speaker 1>clearly because you're the one who's in the story.
<v Speaker 3>And I think that.
<v Speaker 1>When I feel like I really see him change, and
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's just in this version, when I feel it,
<v Speaker 1>really feel like I see him changes when he's with
<v Speaker 1>the Ghost of Christmas Present, and that the Ghost of
<v Speaker 1>Christmas Present, which is the one that mostly you guys
<v Speaker 1>are talking about where he kind of gets to experience
<v Speaker 1>the love and the joy of Christmas with this one
<v Speaker 1>ghost who was really excited about Christmas and wants to
<v Speaker 1>celebrate and wants to show him all the beautiful things
<v Speaker 1>about it. And I feel like that's one of those
<v Speaker 1>parts where Ebenezer really feels like he's really like he
<v Speaker 1>really didn't know.
<v Speaker 3>What Christmas was about.
<v Speaker 1>He didn't really know what all that what all the
<v Speaker 1>big deal is about it, And so in this moment
<v Speaker 1>with where he's getting shown what it could be like,
<v Speaker 1>he actually gets a chance to realize that this could
<v Speaker 1>happen for him, this could be something that he could experience.
<v Speaker 1>And I feel like that's a part where I really
<v Speaker 1>notice him being more open and more flexible with this
<v Speaker 1>ghost versus the other ghost.
<v Speaker 3>I think it.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it challenges this idea too of what do I
<v Speaker 1>actually want versus what am I engaging in behaviorally? And
<v Speaker 1>that's how I usually will do it with clients in
<v Speaker 1>normal therapy. Is like with Ebenezer and him being like,
<v Speaker 1>well I like that, and I like that, and I
<v Speaker 1>don't like that, and then I'll be like, okay, but
<v Speaker 1>but how is the way you're living behaviorally connecting to
<v Speaker 1>or going away from those values? And that's what you
<v Speaker 1>really have to take responsibility for a lot of times
<v Speaker 1>we do walk around in this life. I think Ebenezer's
<v Speaker 1>not a great example of this, actually, because he does
<v Speaker 1>have stated values and he is living by those values.
<v Speaker 3>In the version of him that we see for most
<v Speaker 3>of the movie.
<v Speaker 1>But I'd say with most people though that I work with,
<v Speaker 1>who we have these kind of discussions, they are saying
<v Speaker 1>one thing and doing another. Well, I really value my family,
<v Speaker 1>but I spend eighty two hundred hours a week at work. Well,
<v Speaker 1>then you don't value your family. You value work or
<v Speaker 1>money or whatever it is that you're getting out of
<v Speaker 1>that behavior.
<v Speaker 2>Or maybe that can jingle all the way. I'll be
<v Speaker 2>at your tournament, yeah, I'll see your karate.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Or maybe that is how you value family.
<v Speaker 1>That's how you think you're valuing family by working a ton,
<v Speaker 1>But is that actually getting you closer to that thing
<v Speaker 1>that you're wanting or what even that means to you.
<v Speaker 3>And one of the ways that I work.
<v Speaker 1>With clients about values is even just helping people have
<v Speaker 1>awareness of the values they're actually holding is so helpful
<v Speaker 1>because so often people are completely unaware that there have
<v Speaker 1>that awareness of oh, I'm working eighty two one hundred hours.
<v Speaker 1>I really don't value my family, like people don't have
<v Speaker 1>any awareness about the things that they value because they
<v Speaker 1>either go by what they've been told by their family,
<v Speaker 1>they go by what society is telling them. But they
<v Speaker 1>don't really have a buy in to the values that
<v Speaker 1>they should be connected to because they're behaving around all
<v Speaker 1>these values in reaction. So I feel like values is
<v Speaker 1>a place where I'll walk in to help somebody figure
<v Speaker 1>out what they want to do, if they want to
<v Speaker 1>change their career path, if they want to do something different,
<v Speaker 1>we do Values work to help them have some insight
<v Speaker 1>into the things that they actually give a fuck about
<v Speaker 1>versus the things that they were told to give a
<v Speaker 1>fuck about.
<v Speaker 2>Values is powerful, and it embeds early, and it's yet
<v Speaker 2>another idea that we reject that yet again, there are
<v Speaker 2>ancient wisdom, or there is ancient wisdom about it, including
<v Speaker 2>one that was mentioned in this book or in this movie.
<v Speaker 2>They showed the head of Aristotle and Plato's The Republic
<v Speaker 2>is Teachings from Aristotle where they cover this idea of
<v Speaker 2>like values formation. In order to really reform of society,
<v Speaker 2>you'd essentially have to make sure everyone is given the
<v Speaker 2>same set of values, Otherwise the values that come from
<v Speaker 2>their family are going to conflict with whatever values the
<v Speaker 2>republic needs to function ideally. And we've known that for
<v Speaker 2>two thousand years, and people still struggle with these concepts
<v Speaker 2>that we're talking about right now, like, well, I mean
<v Speaker 2>values are easy to change, No they're not. It takes
<v Speaker 2>quite the existential experience sometimes and sometimes not.
<v Speaker 1>Even then, I do this whole thing where I have
<v Speaker 1>this exercise that has twenty five values on it, and
<v Speaker 1>then we go through. They have to go through to
<v Speaker 1>decide quite important, very important, not important, don't give a shit.
<v Speaker 2>About and so.
<v Speaker 1>And once they do that, we come back to see
<v Speaker 1>what percentage of time do you want to be focusing
<v Speaker 1>on this value? So how often do you want to
<v Speaker 1>be focusing on this? And then we break it down
<v Speaker 1>to see, well, I want to be doing this once
<v Speaker 1>a week, I want to be doing this once a month, whatever.
<v Speaker 3>And so that's how I help them.
<v Speaker 1>Shift their behaviors towards their values by figuring out what
<v Speaker 1>percent of the time do you want to be engaging
<v Speaker 1>in this because right now it's like two percent, and
<v Speaker 1>you want it to be at ten. We got to
<v Speaker 1>get eight percent up in order to get to where
<v Speaker 1>you actually want it to be.
<v Speaker 3>And so I feel like with.
<v Speaker 1>Ebenezer, kind of getting all of his values shook around
<v Speaker 1>while he's going through this experience, I think that would
<v Speaker 1>definitely be something that I would want to do with
<v Speaker 1>him in treatment to continue helping him. Well, we are
<v Speaker 1>kind of sliding into treatment talk, so before we take
<v Speaker 1>a break and get into that more, is there anything
<v Speaker 1>else specifically about values we want to mention? I think
<v Speaker 1>the only thing I'd want to add specific to Ebenezer
<v Speaker 1>or someone like Ebenezer is also when you get into
<v Speaker 1>values work with clients, it's like is this a value?
<v Speaker 1>Or is this a survival mechanism? Is this a trauma response?
<v Speaker 1>Is it all of those things? And so for him,
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it would be as easy either as
<v Speaker 1>I don't like that I'm caring about this, I don't
<v Speaker 1>care about this. Instead, I think he'd also have tous
<v Speaker 1>discernment around like is this something?
<v Speaker 3>Is this a value? Or is this me trying to
<v Speaker 3>protect myself?
<v Speaker 1>I think with him, a lot of this miserly behavior
<v Speaker 1>is a trauma response reaction, and so he'd have to
<v Speaker 1>be able to tell the difference. And once we kind
<v Speaker 1>of identify how much of this stuff as survival strategies,
<v Speaker 1>what's left, how much of that is actual genuine values
<v Speaker 1>versus safety responses.
<v Speaker 2>And IFS language right would be firefighters show up to
<v Speaker 2>kind of be the protectors, right managers who are like
<v Speaker 2>the parts we keep to keep everything, and exiles are
<v Speaker 2>the parts of ourselves that we try to help keep
<v Speaker 2>under reps and don't let anybody see because there's things
<v Speaker 2>in there that no, no, no no. It's where the
<v Speaker 2>wounds are, It's where the the shame is, where the
<v Speaker 2>guilt is. So understanding how those three kind of work
<v Speaker 2>together kind of like as signs a different language to
<v Speaker 2>the idea you're a sign you're talking about here. That's
<v Speaker 2>IFS language is real specific on self managers, firefighters, and exiles.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I'm not trained in IFS, and I do
<v Speaker 1>what I like about what I have learned so far
<v Speaker 1>about IFS is like that differentiation and how that can
<v Speaker 1>help even do what I'm talking about for Ebeneezer, which
<v Speaker 1>is like what's what in why you move the way
<v Speaker 1>you move and identifying mats. You can have some separation,
<v Speaker 1>and then I assume you can correct me. I think, Canna,
<v Speaker 1>you've been teaching yourself a lot of ifs, but like
<v Speaker 1>yourself is probably more of where your like genuine values live. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>I would say, I would say in some ways, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>the self is where we hold There's these eight C words,
<v Speaker 1>of course, because it's therapy and because somebody had to
<v Speaker 1>come up with it, right, So it's you're connected to clarity, creativity, curiosity, courage.
<v Speaker 1>I can usually remember a couple I haven't written on
<v Speaker 1>a note on my desk. Do you remember the rest ben.
<v Speaker 2>Not off the top of my head.
<v Speaker 1>But the.
<v Speaker 2>Dick Schwartz Cward things don't mean you know. What they're
<v Speaker 2>all about is about flexibility. They're about adaptability, flexibility and
<v Speaker 2>trusting yourself and the ability to respond with all that
<v Speaker 2>you are comfortably versus when you're firefighter is on. That's
<v Speaker 2>a real limited, inflexible part that shows up to keep
<v Speaker 2>you safe and it's going to do whatever it has
<v Speaker 2>to do to peth the fire. It's not going to
<v Speaker 2>respond with creativity, compassion, any of those things like well
<v Speaker 2>maybe we can use a little bit of this and
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of that and maybe a little bit
<v Speaker 2>over here without having to show up with we are
<v Speaker 2>doing this right now, and that is it, because that
<v Speaker 2>is all that we do. And when you look at
<v Speaker 2>Ebenezer the you see him become all the sward functions
<v Speaker 2>when he's buying the turkey and he's allowing himself to laugh.
<v Speaker 2>He's kind of responding flexibly to everything that happens within
<v Speaker 2>this devices. But it's very different that you feel that
<v Speaker 2>firefighter step in when they're like like, oh, look and
<v Speaker 2>here's you at school. Nope, that made me the man
<v Speaker 2>I am today. We won't be looking at that any further,
<v Speaker 2>thank you, boop boop, because that's an exile that lives there,
<v Speaker 2>and the firefighters start to protect the exile, Whereas the
<v Speaker 2>self could look at that in a balance way like oh, well, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>that was painful, but I learned some stuff from that,
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to repeat it, but like I
<v Speaker 2>learned about it what I should do and not do.
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's take a break here and move right back
<v Speaker 1>with treatment. So this is you know, we've only been
<v Speaker 1>talking about one person, so a treatment. We've kind of
<v Speaker 1>already been talking about what we would do with Ebeneezer,
<v Speaker 1>and I think something we have started alluding to is
<v Speaker 1>he has gone through this great intervention, this divine intervention,
<v Speaker 1>but in real life, I would be curious, like once
<v Speaker 1>the euphoria wears off of the experience, he's going to
<v Speaker 1>start to have to actively practice and so sometimes with clients.
<v Speaker 1>And this is more of like an acceptance equipment therapy technique.
<v Speaker 3>That involves a lot of values.
<v Speaker 1>Work is just like mapping out our values and using
<v Speaker 1>that as like a guiding star in different situations, like
<v Speaker 1>if I do this instead of that, is that aligning
<v Speaker 1>with my value or is it going against my value?
<v Speaker 1>As a way to stay ground in these situations where
<v Speaker 1>it might be hard to intellectualize that in the moment, I.
<v Speaker 2>Think working through these kinds of things with Scrooge is
<v Speaker 2>really challenge because he's going to need reinforcement of these
<v Speaker 2>new behaviors. Otherwise it's going to be real easy. Like
<v Speaker 2>you said, once the ephorio wears off, like this is
<v Speaker 2>going to have to become internalized to become a new value.
<v Speaker 2>If we don't internalize this as a new value, he's
<v Speaker 2>going to convince himself that he did. He either did
<v Speaker 2>enough as it is, and he doesn't need to repeat
<v Speaker 2>it like well, I mean I raise scratch its salary
<v Speaker 2>and like I say, merry Christmas now, so we're good.
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, because it's work.
<v Speaker 1>To do it differently, especially no offense to him at
<v Speaker 1>his age, he's going to really have to actively do
<v Speaker 1>things differently, Like he cannot go back on autopilot for
<v Speaker 1>maybe the rest of his life given his age. Like
<v Speaker 1>every choice he's making now has to be a thoughtful one.
<v Speaker 2>He must be mindfully engaged to do things different much
<v Speaker 2>like people who are choosing to live a sober life.
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure, that's what they have, Like even the
<v Speaker 1>Sertinity prayer is that something they have to do to
<v Speaker 1>practice that intentionality, Like it's always on their mind. That's
<v Speaker 1>why there's so much constant work with that. It's a
<v Speaker 1>great comparison.
<v Speaker 2>Well, and why the most core value of it is
<v Speaker 2>one day at a time.
<v Speaker 3>Mmmmmm.
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge is going to change one day at a time.
<v Speaker 2>We see him in this fantastical moment where a writer
<v Speaker 2>living in Victorian England through the Industrial Revolution was like, hey,
<v Speaker 2>rich people, you need do we need to scare the
<v Speaker 2>shit out of you to get you to change? What's
<v Speaker 2>what gives? What is it that's going to get you
<v Speaker 2>to see the reality that the rest of us see
<v Speaker 2>that children are working in workhouses. People are being taken
<v Speaker 2>advantage of, and there's halves and haves nots, and it's
<v Speaker 2>not this like glorious time for England where everyone is
<v Speaker 2>great and England is the greatest country. It's great for
<v Speaker 2>some of us. For others, it really sucks and maybe
<v Speaker 2>you need to wake the fuck up so you see
<v Speaker 2>it kind of energy is what you know book is about.
<v Speaker 2>And like the actual writing of it, which I think
<v Speaker 2>I've only seen done really in the George she Scott
<v Speaker 2>is like the ghost of Christmas Present goes hard at
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge and like showing him like the like these are
<v Speaker 2>your children that come out from his legs, and like
<v Speaker 2>they're like struggle in something that it's really pointed of
<v Speaker 2>pointing out the things you are doing are producing their nakedness,
<v Speaker 2>their fear, their pain, and you must stop. This bit
<v Speaker 2>of happiness you'll see won't exist. And it's a harder
<v Speaker 2>version than we usually see because normally the Ghost of
<v Speaker 2>Christmas Present is kept kind of jolly and happy. Every
<v Speaker 2>so often you see a version that goes a little
<v Speaker 2>more true to the book and goes hard. I think
<v Speaker 2>reinforcing all of this and closing off all the dissociation
<v Speaker 2>to all of that societal misery that Scrooge has been
<v Speaker 2>gleefully ignoring so he can fill his coffers and put
<v Speaker 2>in his little ledgers that look, I made more money
<v Speaker 2>today then, so I'm not failing. Helping him to hold
<v Speaker 2>this behavior is going to take mindfully staying present in
<v Speaker 2>how much he's been hoarding, how much he really holds
<v Speaker 2>onto and how little other people have, and how much
<v Speaker 2>This balance shift that he's supposed to represent could produce
<v Speaker 2>meaningful change if he adheres to it, and that could
<v Speaker 2>allow him to find this place of love and opening
<v Speaker 2>his heart and wallet for him, because it's the same thing,
<v Speaker 2>is going to have to be both components of This
<v Speaker 2>is going to take him a lot of work to
<v Speaker 2>undo that value formation we talked about earlier that he
<v Speaker 2>needs to be the richest and most closed off because
<v Speaker 2>he's going to start feeling unsafe really quick in actuality.
<v Speaker 2>As soon as he lets that guard down, he's going
<v Speaker 2>to feel unsafe, and that pullback like you mentioned with
<v Speaker 2>happening with kids with red who are about to be adopted,
<v Speaker 2>All that testing is about to need to happen, and
<v Speaker 2>he's he might have one day where we see this
<v Speaker 2>glorious turnaround. But the other days he is going to
<v Speaker 2>be looking at his ledger with like you spent how
<v Speaker 2>much on that turkey that prize turkey that you ate
<v Speaker 2>like four bites of how much did you spend? And
<v Speaker 2>he's going to get uncomfortable with it and he's going
<v Speaker 2>to struggle, and what he's going to need is support
<v Speaker 2>through existential therapy that's helping him connect to meaning of
<v Speaker 2>why are you doing this? What change are you trying
<v Speaker 2>to create? What purpose are you trying to live? Who
<v Speaker 2>are you? And there's a line that's mentioned over and
<v Speaker 2>over in this one and some of the others about
<v Speaker 2>living in past, as and future simultaneously. This is what
<v Speaker 2>we try to do in EMDR. There's three prongs if
<v Speaker 2>EMDR Past, Present, future, and you have to do treatment
<v Speaker 2>in each one of those things. You repair the holes
<v Speaker 2>in the past to deactivate the response in the future
<v Speaker 2>and make them believe that they can continue to do
<v Speaker 2>so through their future self. That is what needs to
<v Speaker 2>happen for Scrooge, and that's kind of what this film
<v Speaker 2>sets up, is he will live in past, present, and
<v Speaker 2>future as in understanding where my wounds are, how to
<v Speaker 2>avoid repeating them and how to become the man I
<v Speaker 2>want to be and make positive change in this world.
<v Speaker 2>So I think for Scrooge there's kind of a blend
<v Speaker 2>of incorporating some of the AA change policies and philosophy
<v Speaker 2>and also working with him on the meaning behind the
<v Speaker 2>changes he's being asked to do. The discomfort he's asking
<v Speaker 2>himself to feel as assigning a new value to that
<v Speaker 2>that makes it worth it to deal with the profound
<v Speaker 2>discomfort he's going to go through making those changes.
<v Speaker 1>So a part of what I would want to do
<v Speaker 1>with Ebeneezer, because like you've both said, one day of
<v Speaker 1>excitement does not heal a lifetime's worth of experiences. So
<v Speaker 1>and healing trauma with clients, which is what you would
<v Speaker 1>be doing with Eupen easier, takes time, and it takes
<v Speaker 1>time for lots of different reasons. And it's something that
<v Speaker 1>I try to talk to my clients about because everybody
<v Speaker 1>wants to know when are they going to feel better?
<v Speaker 2>Right?
<v Speaker 1>When am I going to feel better? When am I
<v Speaker 1>going to stop having these thoughts? When am I going
<v Speaker 1>to be stopped being afraid of taking risks?
<v Speaker 3>When?
<v Speaker 1>When? When? Right? And I think that something that I
<v Speaker 1>want to point out is that it takes time, and
<v Speaker 1>a big part of that is, first we have to
<v Speaker 1>establish the trust between you and I, and that trust
<v Speaker 1>between you and I is going to take a little
<v Speaker 1>bit of time, especially if you've had attachment wounds, right,
<v Speaker 1>and so first you have to trust me, and then
<v Speaker 1>I have to help you trust yourself. That's a big
<v Speaker 1>part of what Ebenezer will need in order to get
<v Speaker 1>to the work that Ben and Brittany are talking about.
<v Speaker 1>And so that's just something that I wanted to point out.
<v Speaker 1>But other than that, I think what you've both suggested
<v Speaker 1>make a lot of sense. And he's definitely gonna need
<v Speaker 1>more work because throwing money at the problem is essentially
<v Speaker 1>what he did, and while it may feel very meaningful
<v Speaker 1>and very important, it doesn't didn't necessarily make for him
<v Speaker 1>having to create a new narrative for himself where he
<v Speaker 1>could be a different person. Well, there's a whole like
<v Speaker 1>category of social skills that he's never developed. Yeah, like
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't like that would be a lot of the
<v Speaker 1>work too, is how do I initiate.
<v Speaker 3>Whatever, how a bid for connection? Yes, which is right?
<v Speaker 1>I was gonna say, what's the Victorian version of like
<v Speaker 1>asking someone to hang right, but he doesn't have those
<v Speaker 1>things right like being Vonne knowing how to ask for
<v Speaker 1>those things. And when you were saying like trusting himself,
<v Speaker 1>trust himself in a different way. He probably trust himself
<v Speaker 1>a lot when it comes to like money and whatever
<v Speaker 1>skills that he can recognize and hold on to. But
<v Speaker 1>it's more like, can I trust that I have inherent value? Yes,
<v Speaker 1>and that other people could, maybe God forbid, see that
<v Speaker 1>value and want to take care of that, and that
<v Speaker 1>I can trust myself to handle it if I'm not
<v Speaker 1>rewarded in the moment for how I'm trying to do
<v Speaker 1>things differently. Because that's like even what you were saying
<v Speaker 1>to Ben about like the existential part of it, like
<v Speaker 1>the why is what also keeps you going when you're
<v Speaker 1>not getting rewarded for all the changes you're making. Because
<v Speaker 1>he's not, he's a bad reputation, He's probably gonna get
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people that are going to come at
<v Speaker 1>him sideways.
<v Speaker 2>Get a lot of pushback.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, And so he really needs to hold on
<v Speaker 3>to something bigger than that.
<v Speaker 1>And he's in such a reward based field, an instant
<v Speaker 1>reward too, that he also was going to have to learn.
<v Speaker 1>And that's what means a therapist would do, is like,
<v Speaker 1>we have to be patient. It's going to take time.
<v Speaker 1>You're on the right course, still like almost as a therapist,
<v Speaker 1>being like more of a guide that we're like on
<v Speaker 1>the right track, and this is what's going to look
<v Speaker 1>like and it's going to feel hard, and it's not
<v Speaker 1>a magic spell where once you're acting like this, everyone's gonna.
<v Speaker 3>Be like Scrooge, I love you, thank you.
<v Speaker 1>That more closer to the recovery comparison is that people
<v Speaker 1>are still going to have like a a bad assumption
<v Speaker 1>about you, or not even assumption. You're still going to
<v Speaker 1>have a bad reputation with some people because you've done shit.
<v Speaker 1>You need to just sit with that, and that can't
<v Speaker 1>be part of the equation of why you're doing what
<v Speaker 1>you're doing now. Good over it of ego death that
<v Speaker 1>accompanies this kind of work.
<v Speaker 2>Take one of those last break things that we tend
<v Speaker 2>to do the last one of the season here and
<v Speaker 2>move into final thoughts. So let's talk about final thoughts.
<v Speaker 2>I think we all love this movie. So we can't
<v Speaker 2>follow and follow our typical thing we've developed this particular
<v Speaker 2>season of well who love this one the least, they'll
<v Speaker 2>go first.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I love the Muppets anything. I'm a
<v Speaker 1>big muppet head. I love the Muffet babies growing up,
<v Speaker 1>I love Muppets Christmas Carol. I wish there's more and
<v Speaker 1>most Piggy in this one. I think that's my only critique. Yesh,
<v Speaker 1>it's definitely like just as side character. I mean, it's
<v Speaker 1>not very Muppet heavy this one. Actually, comparatively, it's more
<v Speaker 1>a Christmas Carol with like Muppets filling out the outside.
<v Speaker 3>That's definitely true. That's definitely true. I love this movie.
<v Speaker 1>If you're gonna watch Christmas Carol, I like this one. Also,
<v Speaker 1>the songs are bangers. I forget how much I know
<v Speaker 1>all the songs until I'm listening and I'm like bopping
<v Speaker 1>along with it.
<v Speaker 3>So it's an easy one to put on for kids too.
<v Speaker 1>Like, I think it is a a very all over
<v Speaker 1>crowd pleaser, and I'll watch it a bajillion more times
<v Speaker 1>after this. Yeah, I love this movie. I've watched this
<v Speaker 1>movie since it came out in nineteen ninety two. My
<v Speaker 1>siblings and I really have always enjoyed this movie. It's
<v Speaker 1>something that we watch whenever we're together, if we happen
<v Speaker 1>to be together on Christmas. It's definitely a movie that
<v Speaker 1>gets watched. I know all the words, saw the songs,
<v Speaker 1>I know all the dialogue to the film, and I'm
<v Speaker 1>just gonna keep I already watched it. This is already
<v Speaker 1>my second watch of the movie for the season. I
<v Speaker 1>might watch it again after this. So I love this
<v Speaker 1>movie and I'm gonna keep watching it at the bare minimum,
<v Speaker 1>which is once a year.
<v Speaker 3>What's your favorite line from the movie, Hannah, since you
<v Speaker 3>know them by heart?
<v Speaker 1>I mean probably the one that Ben put on the board,
<v Speaker 1>which is light the lamp, not the rat, like the
<v Speaker 1>lap not the rat, like the laugh not the rat,
<v Speaker 1>and he pushes them to frozen water. I like when
<v Speaker 1>he uses the rat to clean the window. I really
<v Speaker 1>love when Peter gets really excited about the goose. That's
<v Speaker 1>the part that I remember as a kid, that we
<v Speaker 1>would rewatch the goose. You's so excited about it's silly.
<v Speaker 2>I don't think there's a better answer to any question
<v Speaker 2>than what's your favorite line for the movie? Like the
<v Speaker 2>lamp not the rat? What line was better? What's more memorable?
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's plenty, but what was more Muppets Christmas
<v Speaker 2>Caro nothing.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>I love this movie. I've always loved this movie. I
<v Speaker 2>also love the Muppets. I will watch anything Muppets. It's
<v Speaker 2>just wholesome, good entertainment. And as an adult coming back
<v Speaker 2>and watching this and catching a few of the jokes
<v Speaker 2>that they like slipping for grown ups, you're like, ah, oh,
<v Speaker 2>I see what you did there, And I like catching
<v Speaker 2>those because the Muppets are a little slick with them.
<v Speaker 2>It's usually Miss Piggy, and since there's so little of
<v Speaker 2>her in this, yeah yeah, and more of the giant
<v Speaker 2>that you know, this is a little harder to catch.
<v Speaker 2>But I really enjoyed watching this movie. I showed it
<v Speaker 2>to my kid and unfortunately she got scared a bit
<v Speaker 2>by the Marley Brothers.
<v Speaker 3>Oh sure, all of those old fucks. Yeah, those those
<v Speaker 3>miserable old bastards. Signe.
<v Speaker 2>I think that in the Ghost of Christmas Past got
<v Speaker 2>her because my two year old has not been sleeping
<v Speaker 2>and so getting her down was miserable. And instead of
<v Speaker 2>being able to go upstairs last night when I watched
<v Speaker 2>this and just put the baby back down for thirty
<v Speaker 2>seconds and patter Eva got bored and started watching a
<v Speaker 2>movie before me giving her the one like, hey kid,
<v Speaker 2>A few spots in this movie can be a little scary,
<v Speaker 2>so she was just watching some and ended up turning
<v Speaker 2>it off and watching something else. I was putting the
<v Speaker 2>baby down. But I enjoy this this movie a lot,
<v Speaker 2>and it made me consider something I hadn't considered ever before,
<v Speaker 2>which is in watching The Britishness and Michael Kinan of
<v Speaker 2>realizing how it was that Alfred Penniworth came about. He
<v Speaker 2>was actually Ebenezer Scrooge who tried to make his penance
<v Speaker 2>by caring for rich people by caring for another poor
<v Speaker 2>orphan kid that got left alone on Christmas, that kid
<v Speaker 2>being Bruce Wayne.
<v Speaker 1>Fuck Bruce Wayne. I think you're so slick with it. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>of all the kids that need help in this world,
<v Speaker 1>it's a billionaire child.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah exactly.
<v Speaker 2>He has no parents, guys, and then he provided gentle,
<v Speaker 2>loving care and.
<v Speaker 3>He still grew up to dress in a fucking batsuit.
<v Speaker 3>So you know, I'd be a kid can offer you
<v Speaker 3>know any don't make me a Riddler apologist. I know
<v Speaker 3>that's a new Batman movie.
<v Speaker 2>And on this podcast, on this day, if I can
<v Speaker 2>make you an apologist for that riddler, I would be.
<v Speaker 3>A magician, that's true.
<v Speaker 2>But I think Christmas Carol is still a powerful story,
<v Speaker 2>and I think we're kind of coming back around full
<v Speaker 2>circle of needing to scare rich folks into behaving.
<v Speaker 3>I know, that's fucking right.
<v Speaker 2>I know.
<v Speaker 1>When I was watching this, I was like, does anyone
<v Speaker 1>like an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or any of
<v Speaker 1>those fucks watch this movie and like any version of
<v Speaker 1>this story and how do they receive it? Like, what
<v Speaker 1>are they hearing? If they're watching it at all, what
<v Speaker 1>are they hearing? Are they seeing themselves? Are they just
<v Speaker 1>thinking this is a cute little Victorian.
<v Speaker 2>Story, probably probably associated from it.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>I think they're like Ebanezer seems like a cool guy.
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to hang out with him. He doesn't
<v Speaker 1>need to change. My other friends, my cohort, they're like Ebenezer,
<v Speaker 1>but not me. Yeah I'm different. Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>I gave away five million dollars with my new wife
<v Speaker 2>to charity.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah it doesn't matter that I'm going to be the
<v Speaker 1>first trillionaire on planet Earth.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, even though for what Yeah to do what with?
<v Speaker 3>Mm hmm.
<v Speaker 1>Well, on that note, we'll wrap up. Here are five
<v Speaker 1>episode of twenty twenty five. Thank you all for joining us,
<v Speaker 1>Thank you all for listening, Thank you all for rating
<v Speaker 1>and reviewing and commenting on and all those kind of
<v Speaker 1>things we see. All the comments you guys leave places,
<v Speaker 1>we share them with each other. We really appreciate it.
<v Speaker 3>It's been a hard year.
<v Speaker 1>It's been a hard year for most people, especially if
<v Speaker 1>you give a shit and you're paying attention, So you
<v Speaker 1>appreciate everyone who is giving their resources and some capacity
<v Speaker 1>to us, whether it's financially on Patreon or buying our
<v Speaker 1>merch or if it's just for free, which is giving
<v Speaker 1>us a little bit of your time, listening, downloading, telling
<v Speaker 1>a friend, leaving a rating, leaving a review. We genuinely
<v Speaker 1>very appreciate it. We're a podcast who pays for themselves.
<v Speaker 1>You know.
<v Speaker 3>Right now we're in Ben's basement at a table.
<v Speaker 1>Sitting at a big table, a crappy table that has
<v Speaker 1>folded on us before, you know, surrounded by his children's
<v Speaker 1>play stuff because we're technically in their play basement area,
<v Speaker 1>and we're big children, and we are big children, and
<v Speaker 1>so we really appreciate you all. We hope everyone can
<v Speaker 1>have a chill holiday with people that they love that
<v Speaker 1>take care of them, and you take a care of
<v Speaker 1>each other, and we will see you all in twenty
<v Speaker 1>twenty six