Gender. Ep 17

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of two and soon to be three and a practicing physician. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode seventeen where we will be talking gender stereotypes and dealing with them both in the home, especially as we're raising our children. Both Sarah and I have girls and boys, so we've gotten to see how that plays out with both genders with children and also confronting gender stereotypes in the workforce as well. So Friday shopping aganza that weekend, I guess, right after Cyber Monday or whatever that fake shopping day is. Do you do a lot of shopping that weekend? Oh? Oh my goodness, no, I don't even do the Cyber Monday thing. I guess because Monday is a work. Okay, do you guys, Do you guys do Christmas presents? No? Or you just do like holiday, we do Hankka, we do Hanka presence. So yeah, there's still definitely the responsibility. And then at work, of course there's still Christmas and all that kind of stuff. But no, I don't do it on those days generally at all, because those are the most crowded days in the least convenient days, and I do most of my shopping online anyway. But for me, I guess it just doesn't Usually. I know, Cyber Monday is famous, but I'm usually at worked that day, so it doesn't lend itself to like midnight shopping cart. Well, the thing about cyber Monday is it was that people were I think originally the idea is people were looking at deals over the weekend and then when they got back to work on Monday when they had access to like the high speed internet. That's where I came from money. We're actually, in fact not working at work and we're ordering this stuff, which again is the sort of thing of like what they don't tell you about being a physician is that you will not be able to do that. You will not be able to goof off at your desk all day. I'm like, I might be able to order some gifts at lunchtime, but I'm not gonna be able to like sit there and go through it. Like really, I'm on a conference call and here I am over on Amazon all day. So but how much of what proportion of your holiday gift giving goes to Amazon? Out of curiosity? Oh, I know, I feel like I should say, Oh, I frequent smaller crafty reals to know it's like totally Amazon, and I actually so Usually I don't plan ahead that much, like because Amazon Prime has enabled me to just like do it a week in advance or less. But this year, because of my due date being very close to the beginning of Hanakai, I am going to start ordering some stuff. And I was better this year about like writing down ideas as they were coming up a little bit. So I'll probably start and it's the beginning to remember, I'll probably start ordering stuff soon again because who knows when the baby comes and I don't want to be dealing with that. So do you give your kids one gift to night through it? Or yeah, we did last year, but that doesn't mean like eight big things that usually means like one big thing and then like crayons and new socks and the like. Out. No, they're happy they get presents. They know there's no mad no, no, it would be like the toothbrushes. So he writes, oh, yeah, good idea, I should add that. Growing up, we you know, different families do Santa in different ways, and my family was not so much into the Santa thing growing up, it being not, of course, the key point of Christmas, so it being you know, about celebrating Jesus's birthday, not a man in red coming down your chimney, and so the stockings were always a bit of a afterthought perhaps, and so we got stuff like toothbrushes in them, which should not contribute to me feeling like like Santo was something that I was really all that excited about. I definitely had, you know, it would be like a friend was getting the Barbie castle and I'm getting a toothbrush and like hmmm, curious, like that was what was under your tree? Like we got pressed under the tree. They were from people we knew, for my parents, my grandparents, so it was different. People have different thoughts about, you know, how how Santo should be incorporated. And I actually was always jealous of the stocking thing, not really the presence under the tree, I guess because ours is so equivalent. But like, yeah, I could have a Hanka stocking, but I don't think that well, I mean it doesn't you could put toothbrushes in it. I mean apparently my family for years, but yeah, I know, we we do a lot of Amazon shopping there. And it gets confusing though, because there's all these Amazon boxes showing up and you don't know what's in them, and we have a tendency just yeah, like is that legos? We have to like squirrel stuff away upstairs And then I'm opening it and I'm like, wait, that is the paper tells. So it's back downstairs with the paper tells, and I'm a lot less excited. So it's a what is your feeling on like directing relatives to give certain types of gifts versus like let everyone give what they want I general, I mean, well people ask us you know what the kids want, and so you know, if you do have relatives we're asking, then of course you know, tell them what what the kid would want or a present that you think would be particularly good. I know, a lot of families have. There's sort of a movement in the anti consumers sort of thing to ask, especially like grandparents then who might be willing to do sort of bigger ticket items like memberships to area like a zoo or aquarium or kids museum or something like that, because then it's something you can use the whole year and it's not eight jillion plastic pieces in your basement exactly. No. So because I I've sort of tried to to request that we not get a lot of cluttery stuff, but I get the temptation because it's easy to buy something that you know will light up the kids' eyes. So sometimes it doesn't always work so well. But maybe as the kids are getting older, people will be more apt to get us the kind of stuff that isn't so cluttery. And yeah, I love the experiential gifts. Stuff I did get like drama tickets for my nieces last year, and that's actually what they asked for, so I thought that was awesome. So I may try to be looking more towards that kind of stuff, yeah, or consumables like craft supplies that are just going to get ed up, so it's not the little clutter because I hate play. And that's sand, that horrible craft sand. Have you ever seen like the modeling soff oh, the kumatic sand. My kids always look at it at the museum gift shop and I'm like, not for because it does look like it would get everywhere. It's not that kinetic, like it doesn't stay together that well. Just in case you were you were wondering, Yeah, no, I mean there's a certain amount of suff and and plus like you know, you you know, people want to get the kids stuff. You can't really, you know not, you can't stop them. Yes, I get that. We've done a few experiential things. So my oldest son, he had really wanted a cat for Christmas. I was like, oh, I cannot. I cannot deal with another house in the lying in this house that I will have to keep care of. And so we wound up doing He allowed me too instead give him a two night trip to New York City, which was actually a lot more fun and so I well for me than a cat would have been. But we went. We saw the Lion King like, we went out to eat. We went on a carriage ride in Central Park, We went to the top of the Empire State Building. It was really it was really kind of cool. That is an amazing gift. Oh my goodness. So, you know, I'll see if any of the other kids might be into something like that, but yeah, they're still at the age where they like the stuff like American Girl. You guys are doing American Girl. Yeah. So, and that's sort of in line with our episode topic a little. Yeah, Annabelle discovered that catalog, which relentlessly started coming in the mail about a year ago. And I can't tell her she's asking for it because she's like heard other kids ask for it, if she or if she really feels passionately, but she's been consistent enough, and I think their products are you know, they at least have that historical perspective and they have books that go with it. Like I'm okay with that. So I think this might be the year that she she gets an American Girl doll. There's maybe also a little bit of pent up, like I never got mine they wanted, so now I can buy my daughter. Yeah. I took my daughter to the American Girl place in New York for her birthday that she and that was quite an experience. Oh my goodness, that place all the doll clothes, the doll friends. Were you into dolls growing up? I actually was not really into dolls. I did want an American Girl at some point. I was more like my sister liked dolls and stuffed animals, and I was more like, no, like I want like fashiony stuff, like everything anything looked very eighties or like crafty stuff or like, I don't know. It's not that I liked things that were typically like quote unquote masculine items actually like not at all, like superheroes seemed really boring. But I also wasn't that into the dolls. I think I like, I wanted like a play school kid. I liked things that you kind of played with, I guess more than things that you would do pretend play with. So dolls weren't as attractive to me, but I did. I did remember liking that catalog in particularly the American Girl, and then got jealous when other kids had it in we And then does does Cameron play with the dolls at all? Or is that yeah, well, she doesn't have that many dolls right now. She has she has Calico Critters. Cameron will play with those to some extent. The shopkins will play with together. The legos that we have are pretty they're quite neutral, Like we don't we have some of the Lego Friends kids, but they're all mixed up with like the quote unquote regular legos, Like, so there's no I actually feel like the way we've done legos, it's probably because because they're younger, but everything gets mixed together. So they just all just make stuff. There's nothing gendered one direction or another about it. And they definitely all do it together, and it all plays with the little Batman thing and the Superman thing, and Cameron's playing with the you know, Lego Friends Pets thing because he's putting him in a house with Superman and Batman, et cetera. So right now, they don't they're not inclined to super gendered toys. Although Cameron did a mask quite a car collection because we got a lot of them and so that became, you know, his thing. But I do like when I noticed that, it's like, uh, what do I, dude? Do I you can't really prevent it necessarily. I guess I've just tried to like encourage them both to play with everything they have and bring them towards things that are neutral, like building type items. Like I've talked about magnetiles eight million times as like super cool, gender neutral, non messy, creative play, structural play type things. Yeah, probably good for spatial reasoning skills. I was telling Sarah earlier about this study and I couldn't find it then, so I hope I didn't just make this up. But finding that girls who had older brothers tended to do slightly better on spatial reasoning things, and the theory was that they had seen legos and blocks and such in their houses, whereas if a family had a couple girls in a row first that there tended to be the more sort of female gendered toys which weren't like the legos and the blocks, and so the girls didn't get as much experience playing with those sorts of things. That is so interesting. Yeah, so we definitely my daughter will have great special reasoning skills. And the case because your daughter is and maybe my son is true, So we have any new listeners. I have four children. My oldest two are boys, my youngest is a boy. The third is a girl. And she's she's pretty tough as these things go. She's you know, how are her preferences? Like does she really like to amass her own very gender specific collection, or I mean, this is the thing she she's she does legos and stuff too, and she'll play with the trains and whatever, but she definitely has played a lot with the dolls, and she's asked for more dolls. But then again, you know, it's it's socially rewarded too. I mean, people are if she asked for a doll, she gets a doll, Whereas I feel like when my oldest son would ask for a doll, which he did, like people would make a big deal out of it, either one way or the other, like, oh, does he really want a doll? Or be like, oh, I did that marvel that your son wants a doll, you know, and it's like they didn't just you know, give it to him. Yes, that's what he wanted, and he's wonderfully Like so, my boys are are kind of different, and so I tend to believe that they're you know, may it's not even so much a gender thing as a personality thing, and certain things are more rewarded within boys than others. So yes, he probably does gravitate to some more of the boys stuff just because it's what gets reinforced socially around him. But my oldest son was definitely into playing with dolls, and we bought the kitchen set for him. Originally my daughter's the one who plays with it now, but it was definitely a present for him that he liked that sort of thing. He's you know, I never even thought of the kitchen set having any gender and gender implications, but you're right, I guess, yeah, I both play with it. Yeah, like just it's way no. He wanted it and we got it for him. And but but then my second son is far more sort of stereotypical boy, you know, in that everything becomes a weapon. There's you know, like very more into we have to you know, keep them away from stuff like violent video games because that's what he'd want to play if he could. And you know, we not that we need to go into all that, but there's just more of that kind of and he's very anti girl stuff, whereas my eldest son was never anti girl stuff. He's perfectly fine to play. And that's so nice that you have those two to compare so that you see that it's not just like, oh, well that why chromosome always does that. It's like, well, there's this complex mire of the cultural influences and a kid's innate preferences that are going to play out in some fashion. And I do I mean this dint get controversial, like in many people. Certainly the bell curves overlap like crazy, but there may be more you know x ex. Women who gravitate towards more dolls. But it's it's like, I don't know, it's just much more. It's much more complex than like, oh they're this way because there's yeah, it's like there's so many different influence. I think the bell curves are the way to just grab the overlapping bell curves. It's like, you know, generally women are shorter than men, but there are a lot of yes exactly, but there's a lot of taller women shorter men, and so it's overlapping bell curves. There's a big spot in the middle. And I mean we're not surprised that like possibly men and women, boys and girls might be different. I mean, you know, there there are reasons for that. On a population level, that is exactly true. But on an individual level, anybody can be anything. And I firmly believe and so we we definitely I mean, I don't feel like I need to be on a mission with my children to you know, counter things. But I do. I feel like I'm probably more aware of certain things like with that my daughter than you know, the boys, just because I know there is a lot of you know, crap that shoved at women, and I wonder sometimes where they picked it up. I was in our show notes, I mentioned to Sarah that my my daughter, at one point, you know, she was like, I want to be a doctor. And she said that for years, like she wants to be a Doctor's partly that she's she she was born with some problems with her eyes, and so she's actually been through a couple of surgeries and so she's familiar with the medical establishment in a way that the other children are not. So she she wants to be a doctor. But at one point she was like, well, mommy, I want to be a doctor, but I also want to be a mommy. And I'm like, oh my goodness. We did not have that problem at our well. Annabelle actually did say at one point she wanted to be a doctor and thankful there was no qualification. And I guess that's because obviously me who's a doctor. Yes, although now she wants to be an artist, so that's cool too. But you know, yeah, we had to go through the long list of like, you know, people who she knows who are doctors and mommies, and you know, we fortunately we know a lot of them around here, so we we could go through the list as, oh, well, you know, Layla's mommy is a doctor, her head, so forth the Connor's mommy. Yeah, if I heard that statement, I was a director. So we went through that. But you know, we'll see how she grows up, because I mean, clearly the workforce is not absent of such things too, And I'm curious have you encountered much of it as you went through things like you know, your rotations and your residency and training and all that, did you Because medical schools are pretty close, if not already half female at this point. Oh yeah, med schools. Actually, I think it's even dipped, maybe towards like a tiny bit more female. And pediatrics, which is, you know, the field that I'm in is like eighty percent of our applicants are female at this point, so you know, there certainly is differences by specialty, but those stereotypes will not be staying for the next generation. Because they're going to get really used to seeing a lot of female doctors out there. Yeah, but I mean as were there still some that you were dealing with as you were going through your training. I mean, especially as you were, you know, maybe training with older physicians who are Yeah, yeah, I mean certainly I will think back to the residency days and when you're in the surgical rotation, there tends to be a little bit more of it, and it really varies by program. I mean, I was lucky to be at a place where there was actually a lot of female leadership. The department of Ascular Surgery where my husband was in had a female chair, which is really rare. Actually, there's like very few female chairs of surgical departments out there. And I do see it, you know, as a as a professional. Now it does. It's more of a dichotomy where the sort of leadership generation and most of them are older, so they've been at it for longer. When there was more of a skewed distribution of physicians, tends to be a little bit of a male dominated culture, which can be hard because that's just the assumption that you know, there's a certain model for a physician, and it tends to be a man who has somebody else dealing with other things on the home front. Then yes. And I've spoken with other people at different institutions and especially during their training, who have been told stuff like, oh, you know you don't want to do this because you're a woman, or you know, I'm so thankful to my spouse because without that I couldn't have done that. You know, when you say things like that, a female in their peak reproductive years might find that to be a roadblock, even if that wasn't how the person meant it. So I know, like the challenges are absolutely not gone. Yeah, and even just like how we think about I mean, there's a lot of sort of what was it called implicit bias or you know, I forget what the exact word is, unconscious bias. But in terms of like in the corporate world, I say this a lot with you know, who looks like a leader, Well, somebody who has gravy toss, Well, what is gravy toss? Well it turns out to be like a good fit. They're a good fit. But what does that even mean? It turns out to mean that like basically they're a tall white man. That's who looks like a leader, right, and and so if that's what you're being judgment well, you know there are many people who will, whatever they do, will never be a tall white man. So if that's the for me, the tall part is the completely to become a man. But you could not become tall, So yeah, I mean, you know, if that's what you're up against, you have to come up with other ways to show people that you are a leader and and sort of certain things. And then CHERRYL. Sandberg's written about this all the time, that men, you know, being sort of loud and demanding a scene as power, whereas women doing that it's seen as like shrill, and yes, and I've had to have that, Like sometimes my husband and I have like dissected, like you know, different things that go on at work, and it talked about it, and I'm always like, care, well, like you're said that that person said it like this, but like how would you feel if that was a man saying it? Would that just be strong or would that be you know, bitchy or yeah, shrill is the right word. And you know, of course we don't even need to think about politics and past elections and such, but behavior is judged differently. Attitudes are judged differently depending on gender, and that's just the reality. I mean, I don't know that we're going to move from that anytime. So women leaders have to sort of thread this needle of being seen as both caring and strong, and you know, it's not an easy thing to do that. I interviewed this wonderful one with Cheryl bill Sheelter, who's the former CEO of Popeye'es. It's now called like Popeye's Louisiana Kitchen, I think, but Popeye's the fried chicken chain, right, And so she was talking about how she threads the needle of that that you can really be aggressive on behalf of other people. Is how such aggressiveness tends to be valued in women, that you are seen as strong and demanding on behalf of other people. That I'm doing this because my team needs. Oh interesting that it's someone else. It's not. I'm not looking at it for me. I mean there may be benefits to I mean, I want to be the leader of this company because I know I can do great things for other people, which you know, I'll still be the leader of the company. That happening, but that it's it's framing it in terms of advocating for others, and that as part of it, it becomes easier for you to do in many cases and makes off better. You know. In medicine, the equivalent of that is like you have to find the patient care angle, which should be the important thing anyway, but isn't always necessarily what's being talked about at the conference table. But I do think that is what makes people listen. And there's no gender that's going to be penalized for saying something strongly and saying and that's to provide better patient care, better patient outcomes, or you know, for the three year out there with diabetes or whatever, then you can you could be strong and powerful and not so I think that's that's the medical equivalent. That's very interesting, Yeah, but definitely a difficult thing for people to come apart, you know, And I've seen this even with people voices like I know that in the writing world, male authors are often automatically taken more seriously, like if they write a novel, it's a serious novel. It's not a fluff novel. Whereas women's fiction is in and of itself, the phrase women's fiction means, yeah, you're right that has like fluff, negative, negative connotations. And in the public speaking circuit, I'm getting better about, you know, asking for what I think I deserve in terms of speaking phase. I have agents who represent me for that sort of stuff as well. But I also know that it's it's men. It's like the powerful voice, right, that people are gravitating towards. And as a woman, I have to be somewhat careful of my voice. You know, that is my voice, you know, coming across in a good sort of powerful way. But I know that people are sort of naturally feel like the strong voice is the male voice, it's the low voice, and so that's you know, something I have to deal with too. But I do think that that's changing as well. My pastor at church is a woman, the head pastor, and she has a wonderful voice for giving sermons. It sounds very you know, it lures you in. You're listening, you're paying attention, and I know in past generations people are like, well, women couldn't preach, They wouldn't you know, have the voice to do it, or and she does. I mean, it's it's just you have to sort of I think people's minds are slowly changing on all these things. That's awesome. Yeah, it's I mean, we're not summing this up with any sort of a solution, but I do think that the first step is awareness and reading some of these really interesting books and just taking stock of these situations. And and I always love the gender reversal trick, like, hmm, would this whole interaction or situation feel differently if it was reverse? And if so, like is that fair? How is it? Coloring can help. I had a little tiny parenting anecdote that, like, you know, not really in the home or workspheres, but like they had this little thing in class where they said, you know, go ahead and bring in a treat for a small treat for each kid for Halloween. So I took that to mean, like, there's twenty two kids in the class. I put twenty two organic lollipops in his ziploc bag, brought it in and felt like I did my job. And I got there and like most of the people had brought in and either they were being brought in by their nannies, some of them by their dads, because I think a lot of the dads do drop off on the way to work. And then some of them by moms, like these like decorated little baggies with like the kids nately, you know, with love from balance hers, so they get like credit for it, right, And so Annabel came home with like several of these, like multiple of these like cute little gift bag type things, and I just thought it meant like bringing you know whatever. They're gonna get enough stuff. It's Halloween. So I felt bad for like one second, and then this dad was dropping it off and made some sort of offhand comment like, oh ho, you just can't stop my wife, and I'm like, he doesn't feel bad bring it in, So why do I have to feel guilty about doing, you know, like not a bonus pinter sty job on this. No man in the class, no father, would have felt guilty for not doing a pinteresty job on it. I mean I can like, maybe that's a stereotype thing to say, but it's true. So I just moved on and then I rolled with it, and then I posted into on our best of both worlds Instagram, which hopefully exactly Yeah. No, I love it always, just asking yourself, would I be reacting the same way if the if the genders were reversed, and if if you were sure, I mean, there's plenty of you know, stupid things women do at work, stupid things men do at work, and you know, sometimes our unhappiness about them is not gendered at all. But if it is that, you know, you find yourself annoyed that a woman is advocating aggressively for something or asking for a promotion or raise or something like that, then to say, well, we would expect this with others if we don't, you know, we want to change these things in the future, not expect them this way. So moving to our there's no good segue out of this. I you know, it's just that's but we welcome comments. I do think we love especially I mean, we don't want to get into this at all, but I know that the topic of sexual harassment is in the news a lot right now, with various powerful men having turned out to be total horrible people, and so we'd love to hear how people have navigated the situation. Owners Sarah and I are both very lucky that neither of us have had to deal with much horrible stuff in that regard, and we would love to hear from people about how they have dealt with complicated situations or you know, if they have managed to counter various gender shary types at work. We would love to hear from you about that, so please reach out to us and any advice you might have that we can share with our listeners in future episodes. So our our love of the week again total one eight here. But this is something that is totally gendered, because you know mine is mine is totally genders rightah, My love of the week is maternity geniens. So yeah, very gendered. Sorry, can't can't, can't go neutral with that one. But so when I got pregnant this time, I had thrown out all well not thrown out. I'd given away to friends and to you know, charitable organizations all my clothes from the prior pregnancies because I thought I was done having kids. And at like ten weeks, I always show really really early, and I'm busting out of everything, and I'd rather just wear the maternity clothes than like not fit my clothes. So like ten weeks, I went to pee in the pod. I bought a bunch of stuff, including two pairs of probably you know, overpriced designer maternity jeans that I sort of had to convince myself to buy, and those things have become I mean they're like heroes. Like the price per were has got to be amazingly good because I got a pair of like black skinny jeans that were ag that I wore I wear probably three times a week to work with like longer tops over them. And then a pair of Joe's like denim one like blue ones with like a copped hem that I wear literally every single day on the weekend. So judge me for being boring a gross but they're super comfortable and I am really happy I made that investment. Yeah, if you get a good pair of maternity jeans, those are awesome. I wore this one pair of seven for all Mankind maternity jeans. WHI yeah, I got it pee in the pod. I'm pretty sure that I wore through all four pregnancies. And yeah, your price per Ware superware ridiculous. Although there were some other maternity clothes that I only went out to wear like twice and then the band fell apart or something like. You know, people do not necessarily make nice maternity clothes. And it's better than when I think our mothers were you know, it was just a tent at that point, but you know it's still there's a lot of really bad maternity clothes. But my love of the week, I'll do a clothing related one. Also in terms of good price per wear, I have this blue tank top from Saint John. I guess a shell is what you would call it. But if you ever, if you want to google my ted talk, it's the one I'm wearing in that and I have worn that for so many speeches. I really I need to stop wearing it, probably because people are gonna be like, you wore that video. I saw you my speech tap. But I know it works, Like I like the colors, this bright blue jewel tone. I can wear it with black pants or black skirt and some you know, nude heels, and I just feel like, you know, okay, I know it's gonna be fine on camera. I know it's gonna be fine with whatever lighting. I feel comfortable in it, and so I've worn it for several events and I'm very happy with it. And it was not cheap either, like it was like three hundred bucks for a shell. But on the other hand, it's uh, it's seen me through a lot so price per ware. It's all about all about price per war, So I'll do a real quick Q and A. We're getting towards the end of Sarah's pregnancy here, very very exciting, but if you read her blog, you know that she is still running. So thirty five weeks in she is still running. So what can you tell us about third trimester running? How's it going? It's going pretty well. So I did this with all three perg well, actually with Annabelle, I literally ran until forty weeks, like I think I had her at forty weeks and two days, and I went on a run on forty weeks. Cameron, I did quit around thirty five weeks. I was anemic and really tired, probably from chasing a toddler, and I was like over it, so I just stopped. This time, I felt pretty good. But when I say running, I know there are some people who can like go, you know, like their normal pace and barely slow down. That is not me. I have to like accept that I'm going to be really really slow and accept that something's better than nothing, and then it really is. It still feels good because you're still getting a workout no matter what the pace is. So I guess I would say my secrets are walk intervals. So I'll do like, actually I've done up to like I when the weather cooled down, I've done up to like a mile outside at a time, and then I'll walk for a quarter mile and then like run another mile. But if I really like I'm not sure I have good energy on a given day, I'll do like four minutes run, two minutes walk, four minutes run. And I've dialed down my run paces like crazy. I mean, like my normal run pace would be like an easy run at like nine minute mile, nine thirty something like that, and I do like twelve minute miles, so it's not exactly the same, but it oddly feels the same, and I still get that same nice little I don't know, mood boosts run high from it, even though I'm only going like two or three miles. And I guess I would just say there's you know now that we know it used to be a tabo thing, but now there's no data for that whatsoever. And it actually suggested that exercise is going to help you have a very healthy pregnancy. So as long as you're consistent and you kind of listen to your body, if you can do it, go for it, and don't be afraid to be really embarrassingly slow. I think that's some people's problem. They try to run at their normal place and they're like, that's hard. Well, yeah, you're heavy, yah, exactly. Your heart has to be really fast. And actually I tend to have to slow down immediately, like like you know, first trimester, and that's due to all kinds of blood volume changes and heart rate changes. And you know, it's not how fast you're going, but are you moving at all? So that's how and continuing to move is great for having a better pregnancy and like not feeling like completely awful. Absolutely, absolutely, and I really really do feel decent. I complain a bunch but my husband and to my coworkers, but it could be so much worse. All right, Well, this has been episode seventeen. We've been talking about gender stereotypes and how we can combat them both at work and at home. So please tune in next week when we'll have more on how to make work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.