Temple Grandiin: Unleasing the Power of Autistic Minds in Society and Industry

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one story at a time. Hi, I'm Tony Mantur. Welcome
to Why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide.
We're taking a break over the holidays and want to
share some of our favorite moments from the past couple
of years. With that said, I want to wish everyone
a merry Christmas and happy Holidays. One of my favorite
episodes was with Temple grandin the first of a two
part series that launched my second year of podcasting. It's
a true standout, and I hope you enjoy it as
much as I did. As many of you know, Temple
is one of the world's most renowned autistic women, with
a remarkable list of achievements. We don't have time to
cover them all here, but it's an honor to feature
her on this show. So before we dive into our episode,
we'll be back with an uninterrupted show right after a
word from our sponsors. Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much for having me.
The pleasure saw mine. So one of my first questions
I'd like to ask is you was diagnosed at an
early age and it was about I think three years
before you could start talking. What's one of your first
childhood memories and what does it mean to you?
No, I actually gone into therapy by two and a
half years old, okay. And I didn't get full speech
until four okay, now slow to responding, slower in my
speech until about age five, okay. And I can remember
the absolute frustration of not being able to communicate.
Okay.
And I would pitch a big tantrum because I couldn't.
Tell people how I if I wanted something. And I
remember of the day I didn't want to wear a
hat and I just was screaming and throwing out the
car window we were driving to the speech therapy school.
Okay.
And the first thing you've got to do is give
these little kids.
A way to communicate. Sure, you know, it's just a
picture board, but something right, So they communicate some needs,
like they need to use the toilet, they're cold.
You'll just basic things like that.
Okay. So now you just mentioned school. Once you had
the ability to speak and communicate the way that you
wanted to, then you transitioned to school. So how was
your school experience.
Transition into a small local school into a normal first
kindergarten class at age five, okay, and when for half.
A day it was very small, and that was important.
I would not have worked in a thirty kid classroom.
I would have have had an aid, and mother and
the teacher worked together.
Okay.
The rules were the same at home and school really
really good. I had a tantrum like in first or
second grade on there would be no television that night,
whether it happened to school or it happened at home.
And I was very good at art okay, and my
mother always encouraged my ability at art.
Okay.
And I'd draw the same horse's head over and over again.
Mother's old straw the whole horse. Then she'd encourage using
other meat pencil like maybe watercolor paints. Doing different always
a broadening. You know, if a kid is fixated on
a certain type of truck, then let's say there's other
kinds of trucks.
There's other trains other than Thomas the tank engine.
Sure you want to broaden it, right.
And you can tap into that fixation, but broaden and
develop the area of strength. And so I had a
good time in elementary school. High school was a disaster
of bullying and teasing, just a disaster. And the reason
I got through the primary school or elementary school without
bullying is Missus Deech, the head teacher, told the other
students that I had a disability that was not visible,
like a wheelchair.
They explained that to the other children.
So I managed to get through sixth grade up to
twelve years old without being bullied.
And high school was just horrible.
And the only places I was not bullied was where
there was a shared interest. I played, just picked up volleyball.
And then then I got kicked out of a regular
school for throwing a book at a girl.
I was actually going to ask you about that.
I went to special high school.
I was terrible students, so he put me to work
on taking care of the horse barn, cleaning stalls every day.
But if I went riding with my friend, then I
was not bullied. Friends who shared interests. I cannot emphasize enough.
My science dator had a model rocket club. Okay, you
know today it's going to be robotics club. Sure, but
those were the kind of places where a child would
not be bullied. Friends who shared interest super important.
Okay, you brought up your team years and being in
high school. So that's one of the toughest times is
during the high school years, and especially for females.
It's a worst part of my life, absolute worst part
of my life. I had reporter to ask me, what would.
You tell your younger self.
I tell my teenage self, Oh, teenage years, things will
get a lot better.
Okay, So during your formative years, did anything happen or
what did that do to help you become what you
are today?
When you say formative years, I mean younger school.
Years, probably your teen years between thirteen and nineteen.
Well, I it was very good at building things, so
did a lot of that kind of activity.
Okay, one thing I learned those at the boarding SOT.
I learned how to work.
A lot of autistic kids today are not learning.
Work skills, okay, out of the fact that basically I
was in charge of the school's horse bark.
Okay, I cleaned stalls, I put them in and out.
I've fed them.
Okay.
A lot of autistic kids aren't learning work skills.
I'm seeing too many fully verbal, smart autistic teenagers who
have never gone shopping, They've never ordered food in a restaurant,
they don't have a bank account.
Okay, but to.
Learn these skills, sure, and they're not being taught.
Okay. So you managed to get through your high school years.
Then after that you found your way going to college. Yes,
So how was the transition from high school to college?
How did that work out?
Oh? Way much better. My science teacher when I was
in high school got me motivated to study.
Now.
I couldn't do higher math, one of these visual thinkers.
I can't do higher math. I failed the SAT in algebra.
I went into college on probation, but at this point
I had decided to turn it around and study.
I was motivated now to study.
Okay, when I failed My first math was I got tutoring,
and I managed to get through it with a ton
of tutoring. And then I majored in psychology to avoid
the math classes. And I had some bullying even in college.
Wow.
And one of the things that helped me was, I
think it was in my junior year or so, there
was a big variety show that my college put on.
I went to small college and only had five hundred,
few hundred students, and I went in this variety show
that they had and I made scenery for it and
I sung a silly song that helped my.
Social life a whole lot.
Okay, I can't.
That's a shared interest. I can't emphasize that enough. And
then I went out to my aunt's ranch. That got
me up. But I was going out there even when
I was in high school. But I can't emphasize enough
exposing these kids to enough different things so they can
get interested in the things that can become a career.
Right.
Well, my cattle.
Exposure all started as teenager.
Okay, so you learned by being around cattle on farms
while you was a teenager, and then that grew and
you went to college. When did you decide that this
was going to be a calling and how did that happen?
Well, I've then started a year towards a master's degree
in experimental psychology that did not work out. Okay, So
I went over to the animal science department and ran
into a professor named Philip Steile.
Okay, I got to thank Philip for getting me into that.
He let me go on field trips with his food
technology class even though it wasn't enrolled in the class.
He's one of these professors that were teaching was his
primary thing, right, and he helped you make the switch.
I gotta really thank him for doing that.
Okay.
I got to thank mister Carlock, my science teacher. I
can't emphasize how important these mentors are. And you see,
by this time, I got decent grades. I was serious, right,
and I got a C. And statistics had to be tutored.
I had another graduate student tutor, mate.
Okay.
And one of the things I did right is when
I failed my first quiz, I got help.
Okay.
Too many students today wait until they're failing the end
of the course before they ask for help, right. I
asked for help when I failed the first quiz.
Okay. So now you've made the transition into the cattle.
When did you start to realize that this just maybe
your calling to help change the way people thought about
treating cattle humanly.
First of all, I just was interested in designing equipment.
And I went out every feed yard and I worked cattle,
and I saw good things in the designs, bad things
in the designs, and I kind of thought, like a
design a self managing cattle handling system. And then for
another thing I did from a job standpoint, it was
really good. There's a scene in the Temple Brand, an
HBO movie, where I get the lot the editor's card
from our local state farm magazine and I start writing
for that magazine. That was very important for my career,
and I had the guts to go up and get
the card.
A lot of people wouldn't have had.
You know why I had the guts because in the fifties, right, oh,
elementary school kids had self candy for charity. Yes, you
had to talk to people, elementary kids and they seven
or eight years old.
In my generation, when.
The parents had a party, you put your good clothes
on and you greeted the guests and your little host
and hostesses.
Right.
That taught going up to people and talking to them.
That's so good. I'm really glad that you brought up
your HBO movie. Hollywood has a reputation at some times
of putting some things in that just embellished the facts
a little bit. Was you happy with the HBO movie
they did? And was it pretty true what really happened
during your life?
Let's talk about the stuff that's absolutely accurate. Okay, it
shows visual thinking absolutely accurately. I also discussed visual thinking
in my book Early Autobiography, Thinking and Pictures. I've got
another books that just came out on visual thinking. My
visual thinking is shown accurately in that movie, all right,
And the projects I designed are all accurate. Those two
things are really accurate. The main people and at the ranch,
mister Carlak and my mother are shown very nicely.
Okay, that's on the most important stuff.
Yeah, they had a wild horse, and now it was
kind of excessively crazy, but the things that were really
important were accurate. Also, Claire Days, I perfectly imitated my
voice and mannerisms. I gave her every ancient VHS tap
tape I could find for her to study.
Okay, So once they did the movie and it was
out there, your life got exposed more to the world.
How did that change your life? And what happened after
the movie came out?
Well, that a whole lot busier was speaking engagements.
Sure, and I have.
I was just out in Illinois.
Has some parents came to me.
I could talk to me in airport, right, tell me
that they heard one of my talks ten years ago
or read one of my books ten years ago, and
their kid is doing.
Really well in their job, and they thank me.
Yeah.
One of the problems I'm seeing on the fully verbal
end of the autist's spectrum is parents do too much
for their kids, overprotect them, all right. They aren't learning
enough basic skills okay, like okay, like ask their question
at the conference. Mom will start to ask the question,
and I go give the mic to your son. Yeah,
and I get that son to talk to the whole room.
Right, ask his question. Yeah, that's awesome, that building upon
the person. Yeah, yes, and I'm so glad that you
brought that up. I've spoken with so many parents over
the last year, and the common statement that I get
is that they have to love their kids unconditionally and
show them that they can have a decent life. I
think you're the perfect example to show this. You've written books,
you've gone to college, you're one of the top ten
professors in the country. You do public speaking around the world,
you change the complete industry of cattle, and you had
the documentary about your life. People look at you as
such an inspiration. I had one autistic woman tell me
that you're her hero because of all the things that
you do. So I think what you've done shows all
these people that may have gone through or are going
through some of the same things that you have. You
give them hope because you did it, so they feel
they can.
Well, that's true. And the thing is, there's some accommodations
do need, okay, And one of the things that work
that's real important. I cannot remember long verbal.
Sequences of information.
Okay.
So if I have to work at bulmart and I
have to close out the cash register, please give me
a pilot's checklist, okay, with the steps to close out
the cash register, right, the written bullet point directions save
a lot of jobs.
Okay. That's great. So now I'm really glad that you
brought up the topic about jobs. I was speaking to
a person just last week and he was telling me
that in the autistic world at least seventy to eighty
percent are either unemployed or unde employed.
That's true.
So what can we as a society do to help
them integrate into the workforce and show these people that
are actually hiring that autistic people can contribute to their
bottom line.
Well, Autism comes in three types.
The fully verbal, the object visualizer like me who thinks
in photablistic pictures, which are shown in the movie We're
good at mechanical things, anything mechanical art, photography, and animals.
Then you have a mathematical type that thinks in patterns.
And then you have a word thinker that's very, very
good with facts about their favorite subject. Now, I worked
with a lot of people who were definitely autistic owned
metal fabrication shops and they were inventing mechanical equipment. But
these are people my age, my generation, and I have
granddads and grandmoms come up to me all the time
where they were employed in good jobs because they learned
how to work at an early age. They had paper routes, okay,
and we got to find substitutes for paper routes where
they're working for somebody outside the family, like maybe a
church volunteer job, or walking the neighbor's dog, or helping
out at the farmers market something. That's because a lot
of the fully verbal ones were employed. I think one
of the worst things they've did in some of the
school was taking out hands on classes.
Yeah, I agree, that taught a lot of people a
lot of good trades.
And I discussed that in visual thinking. That's for my
kind of thinker, right, But then half the people that
build computers and all that kind of stuff are probably
on the spectrum.
Yeah, and program computers.
They are the mathematical side of it.
And then you have the word thinker.
And where those people can be really good, and there's
been some real successes is specialized retail because they'll memorize
every car on the lot and.
Help somebody buy the right car, not the most expensive car,
the right car.
Sure, And there's been some big successes with auto dealerships,
really big successes on selling sporting goods, selling specialized business insurance,
selling specialized banking products. I did at top of the
bank and something that's highly specialized and their knowledge is
appreciated by the customer.
Yes, that's so true. Now, that is one thing that
I have taught with with numerous people, and that is
about people that are so focused and how they will
dig in and learn everything they can about that particular subject.
That's right.
So what can we do with a society to help
people that are that focused and are willing to put
the time in to learn and make that transition into
the workforce.
Well, we need to be where we're really falling down
on the job front. I'm seeing students graduating with honors
from college and not handle the workplace right because they
never had any working skills. Now, ideally, I'd like to
have two summer jobs done under that built before they
graduate my school. Okay, and I want to emphasize it's
never too late to start.
But a sudden, you know.
Okay, all of a sudden we throw them into the
workplace that's not going to work. The other thing we
need to be doing is let's just get rid of
all the interviews and things like that and work on backdoors.
In the jobs.
Okay, because the way I sold the jobs, I learned
to sell my work. Here's one of my drawings right here,
it's in thinking of pictures. Okay, I would show off
my work. I learned to sell my work rather than myself.
Sure, well, that makes perfect sense.
That's what I did.
And the thing is, we need the skills right right now,
We've got a huge skill loss situation in people that
can fix mechanical equipment and invent mechanical equipment. Like, for example,
you want to build a chicken processing plant, you've got
to buy the equipment from Holland goes back to ninth grade.
A kid can pick a university or pick tech. We
stick our nose up at tech.
Yeah, Unfortunately, that's so true.
And there's a lot of stuff we're not building. Lots
of food processing equipment comes out of Italy, right, and
these for the visual type of person like me, those
are perfect jobs. Sure then you have the Silicon Valley
computer type jobs. Good for the math mathematicians right now,
I've seen some bad stuff just recently. Elementary school, fourth grader,
third grader. Make them do baby math over and over again.
They get bored and they turn into behavior problem. Right,
that kid that's a brainiac in math. These we moved
ahead in math, right, absolutely, I'll make them do boring
baby math.
Move them ahead.
Yes, yes it might need help in reading, but move
them ahead in math.
Right, it comes down to common sense.
They we're losing common sense.
Yes, I totally agree, And.
I think common sense is visual thinking.
Okay, well we have a school system now it's screening
out visual thinkers.
Right, I don't.
In some states, I couldn't graduate high school because I
can't pass.
Alf never have Yeah, right, that totally makes sense. So
once we get past that, we have another big issue
for autistic people, and that's housing. Everyone I talk with
in just about every state says that housing for autistic
people is so slim and it's a real big issue
for everyone.
Well, there's a big problem with enough low income housing.
That's a huge problem. Like in the fancy ski resorts, Right,
people run the lifts and stuff like that. They can't
afford the housing. Right, these are non autistic people can't
afford the housing.
Yeah, exactly.
And then I read a hideous article just the other
day about these investors buy up a whole bunch of
apartment throwings and using computerized systems that Vic Tennants.
I was just about look very angry when I read
this to steal it.
Yeah, different states have different ages, but usually between eighteen
and twenty one they age out for being able to
get help, that's right. So how can we help those
that are diagnosed at a later time in life to
learn because because I had one lady that she said
she was diagnosed like around forty five, and she said,
I lost four decades of my life because it took
me three to five years to figure it out, and
then fifties was great. And she just turned sixty and
she's had a great, great ten years. So how do
we help those that feel alone and feel kind of
cast out?
Well, those ones that are diagnosed later in life. I
have a book called Different Not Less where eighteen people
diagnosed later and I'll tell about their experiences. Okay, he's
all had jobs, all different kinds of jobs. Yes, helped
with relationships. That's where the diagnosis really really made a difference.
Their relationships became a whole lot easier. Sure, and that's
something that's really important.
Yeah, I think that's very important because I think one
of the things they need to learn is that they
don't need to be forced into society. They can fit
into it all by themselves.
Well, that's right, And.
The problem is I had horrible issues with anxiety, which
I discussed in my earlier book Thinking in Pictures, okay,
And I've been on antidepressant medication for forty years, okay,
and all the stress related health issues I had politis
and stuff cleared up.
And I would.
Recommend if you have a lot of anxiety to read
the chapter and hear about the medication, because I don't
think I'd even be alive today if I hadn't gone
on the right medication.
Now, way too many drugs are giving out the little kids.
It's disgusting, absolutely, but a little bit of the right
thing can sometimes really make a difference.
Because my problem with the constant.
Anxiety was biological, okay, and my fear system was just
turned on for no reason.
Right, biological. Right. So now I'm really glad that you
brought up the anxiety because that kind of leads me
into my next question for you. This concerns a very
serious issue, and it unfortunately affects a lot of autistic
people around the world. The numbers are staggering on this,
and we have to do something about it, because if
we don't change this, then everything we've talked about doesn't matter.
I have read that autistic people make up one percent
of the total population in the world, An alarming. Sixty
six percent of the people have thought about this, with
eleven percent actually following through with it, which makes it
the second most leading cause of death among autistic people
in the world. And that's unfortunately suicide. How can we
as a society help them so that they can change
everything and look at life a little differently, so they
can have a better life without all the anxiety.
Well, getting them into decent jobs, because well, I worked
twenty five years in heavy construction.
Okay, this would.
Have been seventies, eighties and ninety. I was out on
construction projects, supervising installation of equipment that I had designed, right,
working with people that owned shops that were autistic, okay,
and the head decent jobs. And I'm not going to
say their lives were totally you know, stress free. They weren't, right,
but they're definitely not committing suicide, right. I mean, this
is one of the reasons why we need to get
people into into really good careers. Yes, and I tell
business people we need their skills. I have been on
very questionable elevators lately.
Okay.
I found that elevator the other day in a hotel,
their brand new hotel piece of white paper in there
for the inspection certificate. Okay, it's not getting serviced. Elevators
making weird screeching noises.
Wow.
And for the visual fingers like me, you can't do math, right,
Elevator mechanic could be a perfect job. Airplane mechanic, right,
there's all this trouble with bowing. Right, Who do you
want assembling your rudder bolts? Yeah, I'd rather have somebody
autistic putting together the rudder pedal mechanism.
The pilot goes lay on the plane and the rudder
pedals don't work. I yeah, I wanted to.
Steer the plane absolutely.
And what I learned of working in construction is that
I worked with a lot of mechanical people that were
definitely autistic, and they were the best people you had,
right for building things, figuring out mechanical stuff, taking care
of it.
Yeah, we need sills, and you.
Have the mathematicians. Let's go back to the food processing plant.
The mathematicians will design the boilers and refrigeration, and the
visual thinkers like me build and invent mechanical devices for
food processing.
Yeah, exactly. I spoke with one person and he said
that if you walk into a pharmaceutical lab. Chances are
if you throw a dart you'll hit someone that's working
there that is definitely autistic.
Well, exactly, we need the skills.
Yes, statistic mind gets really interested in the stuff they do, right,
I mean I just well that's out on a plan.
One time talk next to a lady and we talked
about tilt up warehouse construction for the entire flight.
Now that's a good flight.
Yes, yes, yes, that's just so interesting, right right, it's
just so interesting. Right. So, now you've seen the best
of autistic world, and you've seen the worst of the
autistic world. How have you seen it change since you
was a young child to now? Because I know that
it's changed dramatically, but we still got a long ways
to go.
Well, a big thing when I was a young child
is that they blamed mothers for That's absolute rubbish.
That's gone away, okay.
And we're doing a better job now with little kids.
You know, you're on certain states. Some states have very
good programs for early intervention with little children that are
not speeding. Yeah, but where we're falling down it's a
transition to the work world.
Okay, they're not really any.
Life skills in the high schools. It's all you know, academics. Right,
What good is having a magna cum laudy debris if
you just end up in your bedroom playing video games?
Exactly? That's not very good, right.
And these kids are not coming video game designers, right.
How you had to get them off the video games.
Something's been very successful auto mechanics. Okay, it's actually been
very successful, and they've gotten good jobs. And I tell
business people, we need these people. You live in a
fancy apartment building, which you like the water system to
work in that.
Building, right, right, exactly, but.
To have somebody that cares about the water system absolutely right. Now,
we have computer systems failing in weird ways.
Right.
A and T broke down, yeah for four hours, and
it broke my United messaging thing for United Airlines in
a very strange way.
Wow, it's perfectly.
In Minneapolis, and I only get one text message in
Denver one to another city. I got half the text messages. Wow,
that's very weird.
Yeah, yeah it is.
It breaks it differently in different places. Well, I can
tell you why. Because you've got old systems on top
of old systems on top of old systems, right, and
they're starting to fall apart now because the people who
made the old system retiring right right exactly, they can remember, well,
we used some fort tran to do this, and I
can't believe some of the antique equipment I've seen. I
was at the airport recently and watched this file drawer
opened up behind one of the gate disks.
The it's an antique teletype machine in there.
Wow, Wow, I'm going I.
Looked at that and you're using that antique. You've gotta
be kidding. Yeah, major airlines. Yeah, I mean remember which
airport was, was not Denver, my Ome airport. Yeah, but
I just saw it just now in this figure of
this drawer opening like a biline cabinet, this antique in it,
like something I used in the late seventies and early eighties.
Right. I think one of the things that we absolutely
have to get out there is for people like me
a year ago, I knew nothing about autism, and I
think that people need to get a better understanding because
I think they have this perception that if you are
diagnosed autistic, then it's a death sentence, and it's so
far from that, and in the real world.
Well, it's a different operating system might be a good
way putting it in. Einstein didn't speak into lage three,
he'd be labeled autistic today, exactly like elangeloite autistic. Steve
Jobs Ewan Musk's come out that he was autistic.
Right, he was also very.
Badly bullied as a child and thrown down the stairs
and has face smashed.
Yeah, yeah, there's just no reason for that. No, So
how do we take and get there? As a society.
We need to figure this out because everyone needs to
learn and understand more. I've always said that you can
accept something because you're aware of it. But just because
you're aware of it doesn't mean that you understand. And
that's the biggest problem because if you don't understand, you
can't relate to it. So how do we bridge that
gap for understanding?
Well, that's what I've tried to do in my books.
I was writing a lot of practical stuff like okay,
for don't burden the autistic person with long strings of
verbal sequential information. Make pilots checklists, right, let's keep them
out of the rapid mullitasking chaos jobs, or to takeout
windows right, some things like that, get rid of led
lights at flicker. I see those are very very basic
things that you can do. Right, Having been somebody that
worked in a very high end skilled trade, sure the
best people they had were autistic. Yeah, at what's happening now?
Like you take meat plants for example, now right, don't
have anybody there that can fix anything.
Well, everything you said certainly does make a lot of
great sense.
I take a very practical approach, and there's no theory
in my talks.
Absolutely, and this has been a great conversation. I hope
that everyone listening has enjoyed it as much as I've
enjoyed bringing it to you. So with that said, remember
next week is the second part of the interview with Temple,
and mark down on your calendar because we're going to
be covering more great topics. Thanks again for coming on
to the first episode of my second year of podcasting,
and I look forward to having you for even more.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to
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