060 - How PV panels change the fire behaviour of roofs with Jens Kristensen

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello, everybody.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the Fire Science Show session 60.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Today I have a topic that I would classify.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Under interesting, relevant, and maybe even sexy.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's a topic  of fire safety of  photovoltaic installations  on flat roofs.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Certainly a very, very irrelevant issue.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we've seen lots of large fires of such installations.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Going through the U S and in Europe as well.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And regardless of this fires happening, there's not that much research going into this subject.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So certainly the efforts of my today's guests are very much.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Appreciated where maybe not that much appreciated by the PV industry, but the certainly appreciated by the fire industry.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My guest today is, uh Jens Kristensen, Doctor Jens Kristensen he just defended his PhD.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>at the university of Edinburgh with his research being performed, , both at the Edinburgh end.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>At the DTU in Denmark where he's currently.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it was great effort on investigating why.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or how such a roof installations could burn.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And they really appreciate that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>SUNY into his early research.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He realized the very specific complexity in the system and pursued that until he got his PhD.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Researching this complexity.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And trying to understand how this complexity changes the behavior.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Of the roof and panel system.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Considering them both together, not separately, which is a huge distinction from how our industry often operates.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And this podcast episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We'll tell you a lot.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>About the safety of photovoltaic systems.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But also a lot about how our systems operate so without further ado please join me with Jens and uh, now let's spin the intro and get into the episode Hello, everybody.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to Fire  Science Show I'm today with Dr.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Jens Steeman Kirstensen congratulations on your Viva

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<v Jens Kristensen>thank you very much.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And thanks for invitation to your fantastic show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>really happy to have you here.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we are gonna discuss surprise, surprise your PhD topic, which is, photovoltaics and fires and that's uh, I must say you, you have a very interesting twist on the.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Flammability or, or fire behavior of photovoltaic panels.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I really like your approach and the way how you studied, but we'll reach that point.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Why is so interesting from my perspective soon, first, uh, please tell me like, uh, what made you start incinerating photovoltaic panels?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like, is this a hobby from childhood to burn things up?

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<v Jens Kristensen>No, no.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Ah, maybe, maybe I was one of the students in physics who tried to ignite everything, but I was probably not one, one behaving the best either, with the photo voltaics it started when I was a master student at, at DTU, the technical university of Denmark where had my.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Current supervisor  Grunde Joomas, master of studies, no head of studies it's called, and also he was one of the guys teaching fire safety engineering.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So, um, there was only three courses at teach here in fire safety engineering.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So I went to him and asked, Hey, do you have more courses within fire safety engineering?

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and he said, yes, we can do individual courses.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So I had an individual course, which went well.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And then at some point, If insurance, who is an insurance company of Ikea contacted contact to ask, Hey, do you wanna be a third party on some experiments related to photo panels on, flat roof constructions, which Ikea have a lot of, uh, and, uh, yeah, I was the third party on that.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And Ikea was happy with those experiments or my report, and that turned into master thesis afterwards with some large scale experiments, and.

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<v Jens Kristensen>They were quite happy with that as well.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So, so we continued with, with a PhD and got the two insulation companies, Kingspan and Rockwell, uh, on board as sponsors as well, the project.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So it's been a long journey.

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<v Jens Kristensen>now I read the, finish the PhD and it looks like our continue, working on the topic.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Oh, that's cool.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>usually people after their PhD, they don't want to see the subject of the matter and

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>You know, to be honest, I think, I think, the subject is still interesting.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I did not answer all the questions.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I still think it's, it's a very extremely relevant topic.

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<v Jens Kristensen>and I do know that that.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I'm one of the few people working on the topic.

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<v Jens Kristensen>and if I'm able to continue raising awareness, of the issues related to the installations, on roof construction or in the built environment, I think it's some extent necessary, to continue,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>um, I think what makes your work really unique, and this is obviously, your.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>advantage or your achievement as well as achievement of your supervisors, GDA and, the whole project is that you look at the holistic setup of the PV panel and the roof,

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<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Mm,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>the manufacturers of, PV panels or many other bodies

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<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, yeah,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>would look solely on the, on the fire performance of the panel itself,

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<v Jens Kristensen>yeah,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>look only on the roof itself.

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<v Jens Kristensen>yeah.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you try to understand what makes the way, how the panel is placed on the roof, change the, the fire conditions.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it, it also places your research in this universal area.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you are not really connected to any PV panel manufacturer.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The insulation of, of course you did research on certain types of insulation cuz that's what you had access to.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But it's also, fairly universal in terms of, of the properties of the, this materials.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, I think it makes it really interesting.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like what was the point when you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It would be interesting to look at the problem from this perspective of the, this semi enclosure as you name it, uh,

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>panel, instead of just going simply, let's put a, shit load of PV panels into cone  rank them by flammability or

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<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, well, well that's, I guess almost what I started doing.

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<v Jens Kristensen>you know, that's the risk, it's been lot long journey.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I remember, some of the first stuff I did was, was taking a PV panel, trying to cut it up into, 11 by 11 centimeters of, uh, And cutting a glass panel is, is quite tough.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I can tell, it all, uh, cracks, but I did it.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I put it in a cone.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I tried to ignite it, but, but I also realized that the back of, a PV panel mostly is a flu polymer, which  has a very high thermal stability, uh, and a very low, heat of combustion when it's finally ignited.

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<v Jens Kristensen>and the amount of combustible materials in a standard panel is extremely limited.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh it's it's around 10%.

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<v Jens Kristensen>so, so at that point I started considering is the PV model actually a file.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Mm.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Or what is it actually that's burning.

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<v Jens Kristensen>so what we did then was, uh, steady state experiments where I had a gas burner and then I measured the heat flux as the function of distance to the gas burner without the panel.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And of course the, the heat flu is, is reduced as a function of distance, uh, which is quite obvious.

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<v Jens Kristensen>But then we installed the PV panel above it and played around with, with the inclinations and the gap height.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and we only published a limited amount of that.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Cause I did.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Continue with, with, you know, I didn't do that many experiments as it was powerful master thesis, but at that point realized that, okay, the deflection of the flame below, the PV panel actually increas the heat significantly towards the surface below.

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<v Jens Kristensen>and because I only had access to few panels and wanted to, I repeated the same experiments with a panel, which had been used for one experiment.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and then I reused the same panel.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So I used the panel where a part of the backside membrane was burned away and thus there was no combustible materials left on, on the back seat.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And, and at that point I realized the panel itself is probably not a fuel load.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So I have to look at the, the system behavior rather than just individual components.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And, and that's how we ended up continuing, or looking at the system rather than, The individual components.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because is the panel?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>a bunch of glass, Silicon plastics.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, yes, it's a glass, mostly in general.

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<v Jens Kristensen>but it is, glass panel, two to three millimeters thick, uh, then there's that frame to on most panels to stabilize, uh, the construction.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And then you have the Silicon, cells with C combustible.

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<v Jens Kristensen>uh, then there are some metals, relatively limited as well.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Then you have the back, which is you have the, the cells encapsulated in EBA.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and then you have the back, which is often the, at that it, then you have a junction box and you have some cabling, of course, the whole infrastructure.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>how, how heavy is the square meter of a panel?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>is it,

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, yeah, stand, more or less standup panels.

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<v Jens Kristensen>One meter times 1.7 and weight is 18 kilogram.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So it's, it's tens per square.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's not that that even if you consider that all of it goes into fuel load, that that's still not very much of, of a fuel load.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if, if you say that it's approximately 10% of it, which

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>It's it's

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>extent that's not a very big, uh, fuel factor.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and then.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>On contrary, we see this large fires this roof, installed facilities.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There was the famous case of Walmarts in us.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was

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<v Jens Kristensen>oh yeah.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it was a very metal case where, I think it led to the removal of, of some of the affordable systems from their

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>or at least that was the, the intention at that

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Indeed.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We, even though it's such a small fuel source, there is, in the public space, some risk associated with that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I assume your, uh, research was, was going into the system approach into looking how the panel changes the fire dynamics of, of the roof itself, not just treating it as an additional fuel that's, that's pretty smart.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And what about ignition?

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>because you've mentioned you put the fire underneath the panel, so, you did care about the fires that are within the roof.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then the panel is as, as additional factor or fires that could originate in the panel.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then what was the

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, we, we had several, you know, There's several sources of ignition.

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<v Jens Kristensen>there is of course, an external source of ignition, which we cannot control or missed.

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<v Jens Kristensen>There was a large fire in Norway and I thinking facility it's named as the fire, a.

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<v Jens Kristensen>The largest cooling facility in Norway, but there was a forklift catching fire inside, uh, the cooling facility and the fire broke through the roof.

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<v Jens Kristensen>But, but what happened afterwards was that the fire propagated, along below the solar, along the roof, and then spread into a different, fire compartment.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So certainly the compartment section of the, facility was, was, uh, breached, due to the installation of the PV panels.

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<v Jens Kristensen>but mostly you.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Of course the external, cases of ignition.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And then you have, the PV system itself, which is a direct current system, which you can discuss whether the installation practice and standardization, uh, is good enough, because the, the standardization of the PV module itself is, is, is quite good.

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<v Jens Kristensen>It's it's the electrical Institute international.

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<v Jens Kristensen>I can't remember.

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<v Jens Kristensen>It's called,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>mm.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And, then you have all the infrastructure.

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<v Jens Kristensen>One of the main issues, there are several issues.

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<v Jens Kristensen>one of them is the connectors.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So the connectors that you use to connect each panel, but also to connect, series of panels into, parallel, system or connect them to a combiner box, because there is a lot of, connectors with.

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<v Jens Kristensen>There are several manufacturers, but there is no standard.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So you have, the defecto or default standard, which Isly, which is a company, multi fi MC four connector.

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<v Jens Kristensen>But you have a lot of connected from different companies, which can be assembled with that connect.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Mm-hmm

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<v Jens Kristensen>But it's not designed to be assembled.

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<v Jens Kristensen>It can be exampled, but it's not designed to.

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<v Jens Kristensen>So that means with time, resistance will build up and such a system.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And with resistance, you'll have production of heat and reproduction of heat.

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<v Jens Kristensen>You'll have more resistance.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And at the end you'll, uh, have an electric failure, and you'll have a direct current docking.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so,  at the moment you can commission your, roof.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's a certain performance because it just works.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But after time, it can, uh, build up this, failure, uh,

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>And then you can look at who.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Then you can look who allowed to install the PV systems in the different countries.

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<v Jens Kristensen>If, if you look at Denmark where I'm at, I am right now, you do not even need to be an electrician to, install, uh, large direct current system on, on a roof construction.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, it's only, uh, electrician.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Certified tion who have to connect it to, the AC side of the building, all of the rest of the system, you know, you don't need anything

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and what about the roof itself?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like roof is to some degree combustible.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It just has to pass a certain, uh, test to

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

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<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, yeah,

00:13:34.191 --> 00:13:38.961
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Can you bring me in line, like how we test roofs and what we expect from roofs, at least in

00:13:39.051 --> 00:13:39.410
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:13:39.410 --> 00:13:48.740
<v Jens Kristensen>So, so in Europe we have the, uh, E N 1 3, 5 0 1 dash five it's it's called B roof.

00:13:49.061 --> 00:13:52.583
<v Jens Kristensen>and as long as it's what is it called compliant with B roof?

00:13:52.833 --> 00:14:00.783
<v Jens Kristensen>then you allow install our roof construction, Be roof, there's four different test methods because it's Euro and we do not really agree on how to test stuff.

00:14:01.173 --> 00:14:06.538
<v Jens Kristensen>So, so there is test 1, 2, 3, 4, which are different from to country.

00:14:07.187 --> 00:14:16.307
<v Jens Kristensen>so France have their test system, uh, Germany, Denmark, I think Norway, Sweden have system, the UK of course, a different, so they have a different test system.

00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:24.725
<v Jens Kristensen>but in general, All of these tests, designed to verify that a fire not spread along a little roof, propagate along a roof.

00:14:26.046 --> 00:14:33.515
<v Jens Kristensen>That's also what we see in the experiments is if we have a roof construction, we have a roof construction in general.

00:14:33.520 --> 00:14:34.985
<v Jens Kristensen>I can go to the nearby here.

00:14:34.985 --> 00:14:42.306
<v Jens Kristensen>I can start a decent bonfire because the roof is designed not to facilitate spread of fire, but.

00:14:42.530 --> 00:14:44.735
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>does doesn't mean it does not burn at all.

00:14:44.808 --> 00:14:54.773
<v Jens Kristensen>You know, it burns because mostly it's plastics, uh, mostly it's PVC or, uh, Beto or, TPO or E P DM.

00:14:55.102 --> 00:14:55.883
<v Jens Kristensen>There is different.

00:14:56.648 --> 00:14:58.298
<v Jens Kristensen>The two loss were also plastics.

00:14:58.572 --> 00:15:00.628
<v Jens Kristensen>so all of these materials are plastics.

00:15:00.628 --> 00:15:03.057
<v Jens Kristensen>There's just decent amount of flame charts in it.

00:15:03.462 --> 00:15:19.403
<v Jens Kristensen>and does the fire are not able to properly, you will have ignition, but, the amount of heat that's necessary to heat up, the next part of the roofing membrane, to release a certain amount of paralyzes gases, cannot be released from the burning, uh, paralyzer After burning roof from my brain.

00:15:19.763 --> 00:15:21.743
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So eventually the fire dies out because

00:15:21.802 --> 00:15:22.283
<v Jens Kristensen>Exactly.

00:15:22.342 --> 00:15:22.972
<v Jens Kristensen>Exactly.

00:15:23.692 --> 00:15:23.873
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:15:23.873 --> 00:15:24.783
<v Jens Kristensen>It's just quid.

00:15:24.802 --> 00:15:25.186
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah,

00:15:25.222 --> 00:15:26.783
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and now, and now comes to you with your

00:15:27.712 --> 00:15:28.192
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah,

00:15:28.342 --> 00:15:29.692
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>a PV panel on top of that.

00:15:30.052 --> 00:15:30.413
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah,

00:15:30.442 --> 00:15:31.283
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>the font starts.

00:15:31.462 --> 00:15:31.763
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah.

00:15:31.763 --> 00:15:36.082
<v Jens Kristensen>Then, then the whole system changes because you have what is called, uh, a heat feedback rope.

00:15:36.201 --> 00:15:44.759
<v Jens Kristensen>so because of the, the barrier, which is above, certainly, which could be some extent, it's a vertical barrier, which either, deflects the flame.

00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:49.332
<v Jens Kristensen>So you have, deflective, flame, that's almost similar to, you know, a concurrent flame.

00:15:49.602 --> 00:15:56.802
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, if you talk about concurrent or a post claim spread, so you suddenly have a higher amount of, heat flock, radi.

00:15:57.212 --> 00:16:06.206
<v Jens Kristensen>Towards the roof below and thus you have a, a significantly higher heat flow towards the area, and thereby the, the sign of the roofing membrane.

00:16:06.211 --> 00:16:13.605
<v Jens Kristensen>If, it's designed based on with, with the flame towers, uh, of retardants, cancel loud, the whole do system just doesn't matter.

00:16:13.635 --> 00:16:14.056
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:16:14.638 --> 00:16:19.740
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Um, but In your legal systems, you are not obliged to repeat, like, be roof with the PV panel.

00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:22.515
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>No, it's just, you are putting a thing on the thing.

00:16:22.515 --> 00:16:23.206
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It doesn't.

00:16:23.270 --> 00:16:24.316
<v Jens Kristensen>two different things.

00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:37.061
<v Jens Kristensen>You know, first of all, first of all, the fire safety in Europe, when it comes to, to the PV panel or building applied PV panel, which this is, uh, that means you have an existing building and you come with your technology and it's just add on technology.

00:16:37.061 --> 00:16:41.410
<v Jens Kristensen>And that add on technology has in most countries, nothing to do with the roof.

00:16:41.763 --> 00:16:41.883
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hmm.

00:16:42.028 --> 00:16:50.061
<v Jens Kristensen>you don't have to consider it for fire safety here in, in Denmark, we had the, the issue, it it's been asked to like the ministry have been asked, what do we do about this.

00:16:50.586 --> 00:16:52.326
<v Jens Kristensen>Well, it's not a part of the building.

00:16:52.326 --> 00:16:55.580
<v Jens Kristensen>It's not our problem, and different places.

00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:59.690
<v Jens Kristensen>And as far as I understand in Europe, they have different point of view.

00:16:59.788 --> 00:17:05.119
<v Jens Kristensen>but it's not real standardized anywhere, how to design it or how to consider it with respect to the design.

00:17:05.944 --> 00:17:12.250
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>On the opposite side, the people doing the PV panels, they would be responsible for the PV panel itself

00:17:12.506 --> 00:17:12.955
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:17:12.971 --> 00:17:14.560
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>can show it's low flammability.

00:17:14.560 --> 00:17:14.681
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's

00:17:14.786 --> 00:17:15.266
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:17:15.266 --> 00:17:15.355
<v Jens Kristensen>That.

00:17:15.461 --> 00:17:17.681
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>uh, we're not adding fuel to the roof.

00:17:17.681 --> 00:17:18.161
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You're good.

00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:22.228
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, it's a perfectly fine, uh, panel itself.

00:17:22.347 --> 00:17:23.938
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and that's what they're saying.

00:17:24.278 --> 00:17:28.147
<v Jens Kristensen>so they, first of all, they don't want to hear the word fire.

00:17:28.548 --> 00:17:31.748
<v Jens Kristensen>you know, I don't have, many friends, within the TV industry.

00:17:32.258 --> 00:17:40.458
<v Jens Kristensen>Um, and, and the funny thing is, I, I honestly think I'm trying To ensure long term sustainability of their product.

00:17:40.788 --> 00:17:47.788
<v Jens Kristensen>So we also install them in 30 years from now, because that's what I'm honestly, uh, afraid of.

00:17:47.817 --> 00:17:52.218
<v Jens Kristensen>If, if we do not do, or act right now, we will have an issue in the future.

00:17:52.357 --> 00:17:59.218
<v Jens Kristensen>and then we might have politicians who are doing what politicians are best at when it comes to, not understanding the issue.

00:17:59.488 --> 00:18:00.748
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and that will be Bann.

00:18:00.813 --> 00:18:08.843
<v Jens Kristensen>And the product from the environment and, utilizing the roof construction from PV systems is the way to.

00:18:09.855 --> 00:18:12.488
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, it's a very well exposed, surface.

00:18:12.728 --> 00:18:21.157
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so give me the technicalities, like, uh, give, give me the meat  so, so what exactly did you find?

00:18:21.157 --> 00:18:28.728
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like what's the number one finding of, your extensive research in, beer burning the semi enclosures.

00:18:29.323 --> 00:18:45.576
<v Jens Kristensen>I think, first of all, it is the definition of the, what we call the semi-enclosure, what Guillermo Rein and then Ricky, during my viva said, like, it's just a cavity and SIM closure, no one understands what its, but I calling until I finished the, of my Jesus.

00:18:45.837 --> 00:18:58.865
<v Jens Kristensen>So, first of all, it is the, the identification of the,, SIM enclosure, uh, and the importance of the reradiation, the whole system behavior, which is, crucial for, the fire safety on the roof instructions.

00:18:59.157 --> 00:19:01.411
<v Jens Kristensen>then we identify for.

00:19:01.586 --> 00:19:12.086
<v Jens Kristensen>The specific setups that we had experimental setups, we identified a critical gap height where if the gap height is above a specific gap height.

00:19:12.086 --> 00:19:17.695
<v Jens Kristensen>So the gap height is defined as, as the distance from the roof construction to the PV module.

00:19:17.996 --> 00:19:28.990
<v Jens Kristensen>At the point of ignition, if the gap part is, let's say, uh, 13 centimeters in the specific specific setup, the fire do not propagate at all, but if we lower the module one centimeter.

00:19:29.595 --> 00:19:33.500
<v Jens Kristensen>Certainly Def fire starts to propagate, to the whole roof construction.

00:19:33.827 --> 00:19:40.224
<v Jens Kristensen>so it's very, very small details with, uh, define the difference between, no flame spread and flame spread.

00:19:40.585 --> 00:19:45.178
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This gap height also relates to the, Hite straight of the, of the source, right?

00:19:45.413 --> 00:19:45.702
<v Jens Kristensen>Sure.

00:19:45.813 --> 00:19:46.103
<v Jens Kristensen>Sure.

00:19:46.154 --> 00:19:50.859
<v Jens Kristensen>so to some extent we need to define what is, what is the worst case scenario?

00:19:51.340 --> 00:19:52.211
<v Jens Kristensen>Source of ignition.

00:19:52.728 --> 00:20:07.704
<v Jens Kristensen>cause of course, if, if you have, a low heat release rate, you'll also have a low flame height and, and thus the distance to the panel itself, the panel above, uh, might be larger and thus the flame does not deflect below and the cannot propagate.

00:20:07.974 --> 00:20:12.154
<v Jens Kristensen>So there is some relation there, uh, but screen flames, but no flames, but yeah.

00:20:12.661 --> 00:20:14.580
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>well, that's an elegant solution.

00:20:14.580 --> 00:20:19.461
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If there's a critical gap height  allows you to fully benefit from, from this

00:20:20.165 --> 00:20:20.455
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:20:20.455 --> 00:20:20.695
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:20:20.938 --> 00:20:24.346
<v Jens Kristensen>but the issue is, as some people said, it's a deal with the be, right.

00:20:24.346 --> 00:20:34.905
<v Jens Kristensen>Because if we then have a, a relatively high gap height on a flat roof construction, we'll have issues with, wind load, or, uh, load from snow or so, so there is it's, it's a whole.

00:20:35.800 --> 00:20:36.161
<v Jens Kristensen>system.

00:20:36.161 --> 00:20:39.461
<v Jens Kristensen>We also talked, I talked with, with Ikea, my contact person there.

00:20:39.461 --> 00:20:44.998
<v Jens Kristensen>About how about adding more flavor, tons, or how about, using, thinner, uh, roofing membrane?

00:20:45.897 --> 00:20:49.750
<v Jens Kristensen>The problem, if it's a thinner roofing, because if it's a thinner roofing membrane, the fuel load, the smaller.

00:20:50.921 --> 00:20:56.381
<v Jens Kristensen>So certainly you don't need such a high G height because you have such a limited amount of fuel that you cannot heat up.

00:20:56.500 --> 00:20:58.361
<v Jens Kristensen>You don't have enough time to heat up the material

00:20:59.415 --> 00:21:11.653
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But based on my own experience as a wind engineer, I, I'm not sure if the wind issue be so significant when you raise the panel, like 10 centimeters higher.

00:21:12.163 --> 00:21:14.821
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you see the,  let me give you background.

00:21:15.136 --> 00:21:16.237
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes you perception.

00:21:17.027 --> 00:21:17.317
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:21:17.627 --> 00:21:19.842
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know this because we've built wind tunnel.

00:21:19.886 --> 00:21:20.106
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm,

00:21:20.201 --> 00:21:24.162
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And when we build a wind tunnel, we've started having customers

00:21:24.247 --> 00:21:24.467
<v Jens Kristensen>mm.

00:21:24.967 --> 00:21:25.186
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:21:25.362 --> 00:21:35.113
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and tell us guys, I am selling PV panels, or I'm selling this PV installation somewhere, or I'm doing, small car park buildings covered with PV panels.

00:21:35.413 --> 00:21:45.457
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I need to tell my customers that this product safe in case of wind, or it does not is resistant to wind.

00:21:46.297 --> 00:21:51.426
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So can you put my PV panel in the wind tunnel, like blow 20 meters per second

00:21:51.487 --> 00:21:51.777
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:21:51.836 --> 00:21:52.037
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:21:52.037 --> 00:21:52.266
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:21:52.272 --> 00:21:54.042
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and then tell me that it's saved.

00:21:54.343 --> 00:22:00.051
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we were like, You see you have, again, it is very similar case to what you've realized.

00:22:00.321 --> 00:22:04.585
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You've taken the product out of the context of the building.

00:22:05.545 --> 00:22:17.042
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So when you have wind blowing on your PV panel, the walls of the PV panel are sealed like the large surface where you have the PV panel

00:22:17.103 --> 00:22:17.462
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:22:18.002 --> 00:22:19.603
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>is like, is not porous.

00:22:19.603 --> 00:22:22.452
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And you block the other, uh, wall.

00:22:22.468 --> 00:22:22.678
<v Jens Kristensen>Okay.

00:22:22.678 --> 00:22:22.978
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:22:22.998 --> 00:22:24.643
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>wind cannot go from the other side.

00:22:24.657 --> 00:22:25.018
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:22:25.182 --> 00:22:31.032
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's gonna push your panel into the roof, and even in a very, very strong wind

00:22:31.377 --> 00:22:31.647
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm,

00:22:32.507 --> 00:22:35.567
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It will not create enormous forces on the panel.

00:22:35.761 --> 00:22:36.211
<v Jens Kristensen>mm.

00:22:36.246 --> 00:22:37.349
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>destruction forces.

00:22:37.394 --> 00:22:38.234
<v Jens Kristensen>Oh, okay.

00:22:38.265 --> 00:22:38.295
<v Jens Kristensen>Okay.

00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:47.369
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you, if you frame the same thing on a flat roof, like you have a, have a giant warehouse, which can be like few hundred meters

00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:47.940
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm,

00:22:48.089 --> 00:22:50.923
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You put a flat wall added,

00:22:51.022 --> 00:22:51.242
<v Jens Kristensen>mm,

00:22:51.373 --> 00:22:52.992
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you have a corner of that.

00:22:53.653 --> 00:22:53.873
<v Jens Kristensen>mm,

00:22:53.998 --> 00:23:00.448
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What happens when the wind is attacking that building a huge VTIs form at the edges

00:23:00.532 --> 00:23:01.272
<v Jens Kristensen>mm, mm.

00:23:01.377 --> 00:23:03.478
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>like a giant VTIs.

00:23:04.107 --> 00:23:06.988
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And because it's a verti it's it's rotating.

00:23:06.988 --> 00:23:10.018
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So at one point it's pushing down on the other

00:23:10.212 --> 00:23:11.113
<v Jens Kristensen>it's lifting.

00:23:11.712 --> 00:23:12.333
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, yeah,

00:23:12.417 --> 00:23:13.587
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>be sucking your panels.

00:23:14.278 --> 00:23:16.771
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>now the force created by this.

00:23:16.896 --> 00:23:17.116
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm,

00:23:17.556 --> 00:23:25.075
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>is at the complete different level, or it can be times 10 of what the panel would feel

00:23:25.269 --> 00:23:26.942
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:23:27.049 --> 00:23:28.825
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so it's not really a problem of the panel.

00:23:28.829 --> 00:23:29.049
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:23:29.244 --> 00:23:36.765
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>matter if your panel is 10 centimeter taller or, or not, it matters like where versus this vortice it will be on your

00:23:36.930 --> 00:23:37.380
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:23:37.573 --> 00:23:39.492
<v Jens Kristensen>And that's also like, like such things.

00:23:39.492 --> 00:23:49.220
<v Jens Kristensen>That's one of the reasons it would be like ideal to have the P industry involved in the project, as well as collaborator, rather than someone, not really a fan of what we're doing.

00:23:49.224 --> 00:23:55.207
<v Jens Kristensen>I've tried, I've applied for some of their conferences and accepted, so far.

00:23:55.316 --> 00:23:57.366
<v Jens Kristensen>but I really hope that they do understand that that.

00:23:57.619 --> 00:23:58.279
<v Jens Kristensen>That's helped them.

00:23:59.569 --> 00:24:13.450
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, if you have a solution for the flammability, maybe you don't have a complete solution, but you have a pretty good idea where the solution may be and how to significantly reduce the added complexity that comes from this system.

00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:18.400
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And wind engineering has very good answers why this can be actually done,

00:24:18.529 --> 00:24:18.650
<v Jens Kristensen>Hmm.

00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:21.519
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>contrary to the popular belief that it cannot be

00:24:21.565 --> 00:24:21.894
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:24:21.954 --> 00:24:22.255
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:24:22.390 --> 00:24:23.230
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>of wind or some

00:24:23.335 --> 00:24:23.515
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:24:23.575 --> 00:24:27.414
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and, and the issue is all the different ways you can install them.

00:24:27.414 --> 00:24:33.882
<v Jens Kristensen>So, so on a flat roof construction, you can have them like mechanically fixed, but you can also just have them BA it on the roof.

00:24:34.511 --> 00:24:35.442
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, Yeah.

00:24:36.342 --> 00:24:36.942
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, yeah,

00:24:37.017 --> 00:24:38.186
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>layers of bricks.

00:24:38.201 --> 00:24:38.561
<v Jens Kristensen>exactly.

00:24:39.402 --> 00:24:39.882
<v Jens Kristensen>I don't know.

00:24:39.882 --> 00:24:40.332
<v Jens Kristensen>I don't know.

00:24:40.332 --> 00:24:50.734
<v Jens Kristensen>It depends on, on the owner, but I I do understand why they prefer just to balance the, because then they don't have to penetrate your roof construction, with, with metal screws and thereby your, the roof is intact.

00:24:51.154 --> 00:24:51.755
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, yeah,

00:24:51.829 --> 00:24:56.346
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and the, the roof is there to protect against the elements water, especially.

00:24:56.561 --> 00:24:57.041
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, yeah,

00:24:57.071 --> 00:24:58.086
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>want to make holes in

00:24:58.311 --> 00:24:58.801
<v Jens Kristensen>exactly.

00:24:59.112 --> 00:24:59.602
<v Jens Kristensen>exactly.

00:25:00.192 --> 00:25:00.481
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:25:00.727 --> 00:25:01.297
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Of course.

00:25:02.287 --> 00:25:06.589
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's, It's interesting that, we are, seeking the solutions.

00:25:06.589 --> 00:25:11.616
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I believe that what you have found through your research is a very elegant way.

00:25:11.767 --> 00:25:14.202
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I also saw in some other papers, of yours

00:25:14.232 --> 00:25:14.452
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:25:14.772 --> 00:25:18.926
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>with, the Malaysia colleagues, you have been, investigating, how often this fire

00:25:19.071 --> 00:25:19.362
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:25:19.362 --> 00:25:19.751
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, yeah.

00:25:19.797 --> 00:25:21.656
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I also found it very, very interesting.

00:25:21.807 --> 00:25:22.557
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Can you comment on that

00:25:22.662 --> 00:25:30.067
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes, yes, so it's even Malaysia actually started with, with a paper manuscript and asked of us if we wanted to participate on that.

00:25:30.073 --> 00:25:33.847
<v Jens Kristensen>And, and we, you know, adjusted it here and there and recalculated it.

00:25:34.196 --> 00:25:43.515
<v Jens Kristensen>so as it says in the paper itself, it it's quite the amount of data is sparse and the quality of the data is limited, but it is all the data we have access.

00:25:44.051 --> 00:25:46.342
<v Jens Kristensen>And someone have to do the first analysis.

00:25:46.662 --> 00:26:00.192
<v Jens Kristensen>So we analyzed those five sets of data in total and realized, or, or found out calculated that an annual, frequency, of fires would be around 29 fires per Gigawatt capacity.

00:26:00.592 --> 00:26:04.712
<v Jens Kristensen>, so that's equivalent, in a country like Denmark, 29 fires per year.

00:26:05.134 --> 00:26:13.140
<v Jens Kristensen>if you look in, then you multiply that with 300, 320, you have the amount of fires in, uh, the European union.

00:26:13.570 --> 00:26:17.978
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How much, is the gig out of panels as like a field, not a building, right.

00:26:18.266 --> 00:26:19.453
<v Jens Kristensen>that's like the whole gig.

00:26:19.459 --> 00:26:21.163
<v Jens Kristensen>What is the whole capacity in Denmark?

00:26:21.344 --> 00:26:25.810
<v Jens Kristensen>So, a large, roof construction, commercial roof construction could be one mega.

00:26:26.945 --> 00:26:29.175
<v Jens Kristensen>Two megawatts, if, it's like extremely big.

00:26:29.489 --> 00:26:36.195
<v Jens Kristensen>so that's, that's the, that's the scale, installations iswas as, as

00:26:36.665 --> 00:26:39.365
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so that would mean for a like large building.

00:26:39.371 --> 00:26:44.615
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The, fire, uh, frequency would be like one every like 25

00:26:44.935 --> 00:26:45.226
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:26:45.296 --> 00:26:45.865
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, yeah.

00:26:46.205 --> 00:26:46.425
<v Jens Kristensen>And,

00:26:46.566 --> 00:26:49.355
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and for household installation, like one in a 500

00:26:49.596 --> 00:26:50.256
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, yeah.

00:26:50.451 --> 00:26:55.119
<v Jens Kristensen>But then again, you know, we have to remember, first of all, the, the quality of the data, some of the data.

00:26:55.301 --> 00:26:57.873
<v Jens Kristensen>comes from the Italian, fire and rescue services.

00:26:58.165 --> 00:27:10.299
<v Jens Kristensen>if you look at the, Italy, have a significantly higher amount of fires per year than any other country, but that's cause the Italian fire and safety, services are actually looking for those fires.

00:27:10.299 --> 00:27:12.069
<v Jens Kristensen>They actually reporting those fires.

00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:14.289
<v Jens Kristensen>So you have more or less the actual.

00:27:14.984 --> 00:27:16.724
<v Jens Kristensen>Whereas there is other countries.

00:27:16.828 --> 00:27:25.278
<v Jens Kristensen>if you look in the states, they have maybe 20 fires a year because it's not really possible to, report these fires.

00:27:25.877 --> 00:27:34.616
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, there is the, um, the report by McNamee and, Brian Meacham on pre-owned green attributes, to buildings and then build environments.

00:27:35.044 --> 00:27:40.517
<v Jens Kristensen>and it's, It's really highlighted that, well, it's just not possible to report this kind of virus.

00:27:40.787 --> 00:27:51.513
<v Jens Kristensen>, then there is also different systems in Germany or the Netherlands, uh, the amount of fires which are actually, reported is just based on surveys and media or social media.

00:27:51.874 --> 00:27:55.534
<v Jens Kristensen>So it's just, if there's suddenly fire in the media, they write it down.

00:27:55.743 --> 00:27:58.534
<v Jens Kristensen>So the different of fire here is.

00:27:59.106 --> 00:28:05.257
<v Jens Kristensen>Very large fire, then it's, then it's actually reported, whereas smaller fires are not repoed.

00:28:05.261 --> 00:28:14.230
<v Jens Kristensen>So, so what we look at might actually only be the tip of the iceberg, whereas all of these smaller fires are not really, highlighted anywhere.

00:28:14.536 --> 00:28:23.497
<v Jens Kristensen>it would be ideal to, get some data from the insurance companies of course, because they will have, uh, they probably have all the, yeah, they probably have all data.

00:28:23.711 --> 00:28:24.520
<v Jens Kristensen>then it's just a question.

00:28:25.151 --> 00:28:28.300
<v Jens Kristensen>Of sharing that data and, and their willingness to share that data.

00:28:28.596 --> 00:28:37.701
<v Jens Kristensen>and since they have not shared or, or mentioned the data or, or Christian, the numbers that we came out with, some one could think that they are lower.

00:28:38.036 --> 00:28:39.513
<v Jens Kristensen>but, but we don't really know.

00:28:39.766 --> 00:28:42.834
<v Jens Kristensen>so collaborating with them and, and having actually.

00:28:42.992 --> 00:28:52.786
<v Jens Kristensen>Access to that data or, just feedback based on that data would be a huge benefit for understanding the risk related to PV systems, in the environment

00:28:52.885 --> 00:28:55.986
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>uh, going back to your, study, you've mentioned gap height, being

00:28:56.260 --> 00:28:56.550
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:28:56.569 --> 00:28:59.912
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>the variable that, that you found like really important.

00:29:00.392 --> 00:29:04.449
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, any other things, you, you found it influenced this, this behavior.

00:29:04.449 --> 00:29:05.378
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know inclination

00:29:05.469 --> 00:29:08.378
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, inclination surely, uh, affected it as well.

00:29:08.378 --> 00:29:16.195
<v Jens Kristensen>We didn't do that many experiments with inclination because we had too many parameters, but when we inclined the panel, the critical gap height.

00:29:16.469 --> 00:29:19.027
<v Jens Kristensen>became larger, the flame spread rate was higher.

00:29:19.338 --> 00:29:22.183
<v Jens Kristensen>so that was also quite, uh, interesting to see.

00:29:22.651 --> 00:29:27.631
<v Jens Kristensen>then we had some limitations with the width of the, which limited the flame, unfortunately.

00:29:27.826 --> 00:29:35.324
<v Jens Kristensen>but I, to rebuild that experimental and do it a big, uh, locker, and then we might be able to, to see.

00:29:35.788 --> 00:29:36.939
<v Jens Kristensen>Verifi verify the behavior.

00:29:37.215 --> 00:29:40.291
<v Jens Kristensen>but in general, we verified the behavior during my, my master thesis.

00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.933
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, you, you've also mentioned you've worked with, manufacturers of, of installation.

00:29:49.933 --> 00:29:53.963
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I guess you were, changing the roof membrane, uh, itself a bit.

00:29:54.243 --> 00:29:55.834
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Was it important variable for

00:29:56.104 --> 00:29:58.084
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, the membrane, the membrane was, was the same.

00:29:58.084 --> 00:30:08.280
<v Jens Kristensen>So the insulation was, the variable because there were insulation companies, Ikea, no, uh Kingspan and Rockwell two huge competitors, but they were quiet during the, uh, the whole thesis

00:30:08.351 --> 00:30:09.641
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>congratulations on working

00:30:10.530 --> 00:30:12.401
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:12.401 --> 00:30:15.851
<v Jens Kristensen>But, but, but they were really, uh, great to work with because.

00:30:16.251 --> 00:30:21.922
<v Jens Kristensen>I think they, uh, to some extent, except that there they were on the same project, uh, and, and kept quiet.

00:30:21.922 --> 00:30:22.731
<v Jens Kristensen>So that was great.

00:30:23.092 --> 00:30:29.019
<v Jens Kristensen>so, there was no significant difference in my opinion, between the materials I worked with.

00:30:29.672 --> 00:30:31.741
<v Jens Kristensen>I did not test them at the same thickness.

00:30:31.801 --> 00:30:33.781
<v Jens Kristensen>You know, one could say, I should test them at the same thickness.

00:30:33.781 --> 00:30:35.852
<v Jens Kristensen>One could say, I should test them for the same R value.

00:30:36.115 --> 00:30:47.796
<v Jens Kristensen>so the insulation capacity or how well the conductivity, uh, and of course the connectivity of the pion from king is lower than the productivity for the mineral.

00:30:47.796 --> 00:30:52.566
<v Jens Kristensen>And in addition, the, the Kingspan product does also have aluminum fall and chop.

00:30:52.925 --> 00:30:58.207
<v Jens Kristensen>So during the experiments, That actually benefited the, the P insulation.

00:30:58.433 --> 00:31:09.770
<v Jens Kristensen>but the issue with the P insulation is that it, it swelled when it was exposed to heat and, and that part of the insulation would swell, did not have any, uh, connectivity or it had a very high conductivity.

00:31:10.221 --> 00:31:26.949
<v Jens Kristensen>So the, the connectivity tested for the material, Know, in the standout test methods where not representative when the material was exposed to heat, but in these experiments, we had 60 millimeters of, of pation and, and the fire did not penetrate.

00:31:27.278 --> 00:31:34.298
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and for the mineral wall, we had 50, it should have been the same, but yeah, that was what they supplied me.

00:31:34.506 --> 00:31:38.308
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and, the differences in, in panels, how are we testing different PV models?

00:31:38.338 --> 00:31:46.142
<v , Jens Kristensen>I tested a few different pure models which were supplied, and they more or less behaved similar all them, one of them or two of them actually, was dripping.

00:31:46.577 --> 00:31:55.878
<v , Jens Kristensen>so when it exposed the heat, it started dripping, uh, was burning droplets and droplet continued to burn, when they hit the surface or hit the floor.

00:31:56.328 --> 00:31:58.969
<v , Jens Kristensen>Uh, of course that would be an issue if it was.

00:32:00.145 --> 00:32:01.256
<v , Jens Kristensen>Vertical installation.

00:32:01.256 --> 00:32:06.049
<v , Jens Kristensen>But right now, when it's a horizontal installation, it's, it's not such a big issue also.

00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:08.779
<v , Jens Kristensen>Cause the not spread outside the array.

00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:10.829
<v , Jens Kristensen>So an array is like a group.

00:32:12.500 --> 00:32:16.400
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that, that segments me to the region where we're gonna start, start hypothe.

00:32:17.059 --> 00:32:17.349
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:32:17.355 --> 00:32:17.539
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:32:17.586 --> 00:32:19.220
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and what if the roof was inclined?

00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:28.549
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, yeah, that's a good issue because also what, what kind of materials will you have on a roof, which is inclined, if it's tile, then it's probably not such a big issue.

00:32:29.059 --> 00:32:36.930
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, but if it's still a material which can burn, you know, then of course it would be an issue also because you'll have flame spread.

00:32:37.444 --> 00:32:41.615
<v Jens Kristensen>Even to a high extent, uh, be similar to concurrent flame spread.

00:32:41.914 --> 00:32:48.644
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, so you'll have flame spread and panel, so yes

00:32:50.809 --> 00:32:53.819
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, it's a big trend, you know, photo are, are a huge

00:32:53.954 --> 00:32:54.464
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, yeah.

00:32:54.621 --> 00:32:58.259
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you, you see them everywhere and, it's not only roofs now being covered.

00:32:58.259 --> 00:32:58.680
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I see

00:32:59.085 --> 00:32:59.295
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:32:59.375 --> 00:32:59.654
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:32:59.795 --> 00:33:02.792
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>with, PV panels and in the facade setting.

00:33:03.438 --> 00:33:09.938
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This brings us to good old, cavity issue, like, like it was framed by your, by your examiners in your Viva.

00:33:10.457 --> 00:33:16.018
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so we, we're technically creating, system with, somewhat combustible, cladding and,

00:33:16.018 --> 00:33:18.718
<v Jens Kristensen>And not to mention an increased probability of addition,

00:33:18.829 --> 00:33:19.061
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:33:19.076 --> 00:33:23.336
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>as if Cav fires were not a big problem, we, we now have one that can ignite

00:33:23.770 --> 00:33:24.060
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:33:25.010 --> 00:33:25.300
<v Jens Kristensen>.Yeah.

00:33:25.306 --> 00:33:25.570
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:33.575
<v Jens Kristensen>And, and the issue here is, that these, facade amount of PV modules is different from the, building applied systems, which I've worked with.

00:33:33.575 --> 00:33:44.404
<v Jens Kristensen>So what I work with is you have an existing building, which is a building itself, and you, apply a system, but when you use it in the facade, it's, what's called a building integrated PV.

00:33:44.813 --> 00:33:49.653
<v Jens Kristensen>So certainly the PV module replaces a component of the building.

00:33:49.712 --> 00:33:56.779
<v Jens Kristensen>If you remove the, the PV module from the facade, you have to replace it with an other, construction, product.

00:33:57.137 --> 00:34:03.080
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm pretty sure I saw, uh, at least in here PV models that were literally glued to existing facades

00:34:03.276 --> 00:34:03.566
<v Jens Kristensen>Okay.

00:34:03.705 --> 00:34:03.945
<v Jens Kristensen>Okay.

00:34:03.945 --> 00:34:05.266
<v Jens Kristensen>Then it can be a different system.

00:34:05.417 --> 00:34:08.201
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And for started would be amended with, PV panels.

00:34:08.831 --> 00:34:13.570
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I guess that brings us to a complete new set of unknown challenges

00:34:13.856 --> 00:34:14.056
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:34:14.056 --> 00:34:14.295
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:34:14.351 --> 00:34:15.010
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and, risks.

00:34:15.016 --> 00:34:20.380
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We may not even be And in this case, the spread rates may be com.

00:34:20.740 --> 00:34:22.960
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They will be completely different then

00:34:22.996 --> 00:34:23.215
<v Jens Kristensen>But

00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:24.610
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>what you've reported.

00:34:24.610 --> 00:34:30.371
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And so, but also hopefully the membrane is also than on, on the

00:34:30.626 --> 00:34:31.106
<v Jens Kristensen>it.

00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:32.288
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>of the standards we have,

00:34:32.393 --> 00:34:33.233
<v Jens Kristensen>But mostly it's.

00:34:33.563 --> 00:34:37.733
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah, mostly it's like ventilated facade, you know, in, in most of these systems.

00:34:37.913 --> 00:34:44.413
<v Jens Kristensen>and the interesting thing here is because it has to, in most cases has to be replaced with a construction product.

00:34:44.413 --> 00:34:47.503
<v Jens Kristensen>If you remove it, it's tested as a construction product.

00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.070
<v Jens Kristensen>So there is existing test methods.

00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:56.222
<v Jens Kristensen>It's accepted to be part of, of the whole, fire safety, system or regulation.

00:34:56.672 --> 00:35:01.152
<v Jens Kristensen>The issue now is how do you put a PV module into the existing test systems

00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:02.269
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it's really interesting.

00:35:02.269 --> 00:35:07.250
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you would consider, uh, facade in a very different way than you consider the roof or

00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:08.320
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:35:08.329 --> 00:35:10.159
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>put a thing, you, you put the thing in it.

00:35:10.219 --> 00:35:12.199
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You could be okay, because you just put the thing on the

00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:12.619
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:35:12.710 --> 00:35:13.340
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>on the facade.

00:35:13.344 --> 00:35:16.190
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You've, with the facade itself, which is a system,

00:35:16.414 --> 00:35:16.715
<v Jens Kristensen>Hmm.

00:35:16.789 --> 00:35:17.960
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's an interesting point of view

00:35:17.974 --> 00:35:38.490
<v Jens Kristensen>but then you can question does, does, does the test methods, are they representative of the real world, and especially when you include the module into test system, are you able to, uh, Tabulate or are you able to, can you actually fit that PV module in, or will do it differently from test, center to test center?

00:35:38.490 --> 00:35:44.760
<v Jens Kristensen>Because no one really knows how to fit the PV module into test method or into that existing framework.

00:35:45.161 --> 00:35:49.835
<v Jens Kristensen>but you know, if it's approved and it it's compliant with the standards, then there is no issue.

00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:50.800
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fantastic.

00:35:50.965 --> 00:35:51.213
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah.

00:35:51.213 --> 00:36:04.505
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's a whole world that, that opens and if we want a sustainable future, these, these are the issues as fire engineers and, uh, listeners of the podcast will, uh, we will face as if there was not enough issues around.

00:36:04.909 --> 00:36:10.679
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and my last one, I also saw these interesting solutions where, the photovoltaic panels would be, put.

00:36:10.974 --> 00:36:15.259
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Inside the glass tiles that you would put, on the roof.

00:36:15.978 --> 00:36:17.568
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>are your feelings about that?

00:36:17.943 --> 00:36:18.764
<v Jens Kristensen>Oh, no,

00:36:18.952 --> 00:36:26.722
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it's interesting, but then you, exponentially increased the number of disconnections that you've, mentioned previously as, as to ones that worry you the

00:36:27.028 --> 00:36:27.248
<v Jens Kristensen>Mm.

00:36:27.469 --> 00:36:27.739
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:36:27.798 --> 00:36:28.039
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:36.253
<v Jens Kristensen>If, you know, with time you're able to implement it, most cases, you'll soon be able to implement it in, in a standard window, more or less transparent.

00:36:37.152 --> 00:36:39.132
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, and of course we should do that.

00:36:39.132 --> 00:36:43.543
<v Jens Kristensen>We just have to figure out these years, uh, related to that technology.

00:36:43.768 --> 00:36:44.168
<v Jens Kristensen>and what.

00:36:44.329 --> 00:36:53.119
<v Jens Kristensen>Unexpected consequences are, I'm not sure at the moment that I, that I understand the complexity, of such systems right now I'm working with one specific system.

00:36:53.539 --> 00:36:57.858
<v Jens Kristensen>And, and of course with time, hopefully I'll be able to, to understand more complex things.

00:36:58.371 --> 00:37:06.713
<v Jens Kristensen>So I guess that's one of why I enjoy, uh, if I'm able to continue with which I'm quite sure I'll so yeah, there is a lot of, uh, unanswered questions.

00:37:07.083 --> 00:37:10.918
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's, uh, that's, gonna be a lot of work for us.

00:37:10.918 --> 00:37:12.268
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I say that in almost

00:37:12.358 --> 00:37:12.659
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:37:12.659 --> 00:37:12.958
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:37:13.349 --> 00:37:15.268
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>but that's, that's a, that's a, that's a good career

00:37:15.298 --> 00:37:21.239
<v Jens Kristensen>Some, some point you, I really hope someone will join me just trying to understand issues.

00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:23.938
<v Jens Kristensen>So I'm not just, you know, working with folks.

00:37:24.548 --> 00:37:25.798
<v Jens Kristensen>So there is actually.

00:37:25.938 --> 00:37:26.478
<v Jens Kristensen>More.

00:37:27.038 --> 00:37:27.458
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes.

00:37:27.458 --> 00:37:39.458
<v Jens Kristensen>And I don't matter if it's just, you know, if they're group with me or if they're somewhere else, it would actually be nice if they're at a different university course, then you'll have some, you know, constructive feedback and criticism saying, yes, you're not right.

00:37:39.608 --> 00:37:39.907
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes.

00:37:40.418 --> 00:37:40.867
<v Jens Kristensen>Thank you.

00:37:40.909 --> 00:37:42.333
<v Jens Kristensen>Thanks for criticizing my work.

00:37:42.646 --> 00:37:43.463
<v Jens Kristensen>that would be great.

00:37:44.094 --> 00:37:47.614
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I hope you'll get a lot of messages after this episode.

00:37:47.614 --> 00:37:51.514
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe someone will significantly disagree with you

00:37:52.219 --> 00:37:53.059
<v Jens Kristensen>That would be perfect.

00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:53.539
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes.

00:37:54.333 --> 00:37:54.664
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>yeah.

00:37:54.934 --> 00:38:01.050
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In, in like two weeks, you're having your public, presentation of your PhD thesis, will there, there be a stream or

00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:02.460
<v Jens Kristensen>Uh, that's the plan.

00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:02.701
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes.

00:38:02.701 --> 00:38:03.001
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes.

00:38:03.001 --> 00:38:12.570
<v Jens Kristensen>I'm not sure if people following the stream will be able to ask questions, uh, or not at the moment, I'll have to figure out, but, but I'm quite sure it'll be stream, because,

00:38:13.065 --> 00:38:13.576
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What day is

00:38:13.771 --> 00:38:14.880
<v Jens Kristensen>uh, August 19th,

00:38:15.045 --> 00:38:15.496
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>August

00:38:15.552 --> 00:38:18.900
<v Jens Kristensen>one o'clock, uh, days slash Polish time.

00:38:19.072 --> 00:38:20.123
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>August 19 one.

00:38:20.123 --> 00:38:22.043
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>O'clock the real time.

00:38:22.043 --> 00:38:25.913
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And for anyone living, not in Denver or Poland, you have to figure out

00:38:25.938 --> 00:38:26.228
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah,

00:38:26.693 --> 00:38:26.992
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>what's the

00:38:27.487 --> 00:38:29.498
<v Jens Kristensen>good luck summertime and whatever we have

00:38:29.844 --> 00:38:30.344
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's fun.

00:38:30.403 --> 00:38:31.393
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's fantastic.

00:38:31.393 --> 00:38:45.170
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>, I'll make sure that this episode airs, than that, and, people who are listening, to the podcast,  you'll get a better experience, with pictures and, and the technicalities of the fire, problem that we have just discussed.

00:38:45.170 --> 00:38:49.911
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if you are listening to this episode long after that, and the answer is now a professor

00:38:50.030 --> 00:38:51.920
<v Jens Kristensen>I will not, I will leave university

00:38:53.992 --> 00:39:04.070
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, then if he's just a Playboy billionaire living of, of testing, affordable tags, I'm sure there will be plenty of resources available online to catch up

00:39:04.190 --> 00:39:04.701
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes, yes.

00:39:04.701 --> 00:39:05.001
<v Jens Kristensen>Yes.

00:39:05.090 --> 00:39:10.971
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>am sure he has, this topic will not be outdated in five or 10 years from this recording.

00:39:10.971 --> 00:39:11.121
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh

00:39:11.576 --> 00:39:12.085
<v Jens Kristensen>hopefully the.

00:39:12.746 --> 00:39:13.255
<v Jens Kristensen>hopefully the.

00:39:13.255 --> 00:39:16.286
<v Jens Kristensen>topic is maybe, maybe someone found a smart way to do it.

00:39:16.286 --> 00:39:18.056
<v Jens Kristensen>And I'll, I'll appreciate that.

00:39:18.092 --> 00:39:24.809
<v Jens Kristensen>yeah, but I'll continue with, with DBI here in Denmark, working with, with their team, and, and see what comes in the door.

00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:31.835
<v Jens Kristensen>It looks like there was already some stuff, uh, and they have some, some very great labs, and great bunch of people.

00:39:31.945 --> 00:39:34.045
<v Jens Kristensen>so, so that's gonna be really good.

00:39:34.045 --> 00:39:34.376
<v Jens Kristensen>Fun.

00:39:34.675 --> 00:39:34.976
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:39:35.181 --> 00:39:36.231
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The future looks bright.

00:39:36.231 --> 00:39:40.057
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, once again, congratulations on your, uh, PhD.

00:39:40.577 --> 00:39:44.929
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You rarely see examiners being excited about the PhD thesis they just

00:39:45.284 --> 00:39:45.574
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:39:46.043 --> 00:39:46.333
<v Jens Kristensen>Yeah.

00:39:46.458 --> 00:39:50.608
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>were so, so that's a good sign that it's, it's a great piece of work.

00:39:50.608 --> 00:39:55.514
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I have been reviewing parts of that as your ongoing Griffs to publish.

00:39:55.514 --> 00:39:57.224
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I also also enjoyed it,

00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:07.286
<v Jens Kristensen>I think, I I've been, uh, very privileged to have a hot topic, so to say, uh, a topic which, uh, with is just my own topic.

00:40:07.396 --> 00:40:09.724
<v Jens Kristensen>and, and it's very, Extremely relevant.

00:40:09.907 --> 00:40:13.137
<v Jens Kristensen>I think everyone with that topic would be able to write a good thesis.

00:40:13.286 --> 00:40:18.313
<v Jens Kristensen>Cause it's, it's just a, a funny or interesting topic, which is highly relevant.

00:40:18.313 --> 00:40:23.634
<v Jens Kristensen>And when you know that your topic is applied or, people are interested, then you try to, to do your best.

00:40:23.876 --> 00:40:25.416
<v Jens Kristensen>So, so I guess that's it.

00:40:25.434 --> 00:40:25.884
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's it.

00:40:26.244 --> 00:40:26.574
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:40:26.574 --> 00:40:34.360
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Jens thank you very much for coming to Fire Science Show and all the best in your future journeys with fire photoable tags and beyond.

00:40:34.469 --> 00:40:35.559
<v Jens Kristensen>Thank you very much.

00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:37.869
<v Jens Kristensen>And thanks for the once again.

00:40:38.677 --> 00:40:41.527
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And thats it, I hope you really enjoyed the episode.

00:40:42.307 --> 00:40:43.268
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I must tell you them.

00:40:43.478 --> 00:40:55.277
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But cause doesn't tell a full story of Jens and his research obviously . Something private to him, but I admire his, Insistence on doing this passion for fire science.

00:40:55.757 --> 00:41:01.307
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And seeing how amazing research because the research has done is just really good.

00:41:01.307 --> 00:41:02.717
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is, is good on itself.

00:41:03.137 --> 00:41:04.907
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Seeing how it has been done.

00:41:05.297 --> 00:41:11.507
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In the circumstances he was going through the forced change of location, health issues and stuff like that.

00:41:11.538 --> 00:41:15.137
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Ah, It's amazing what this guy has pulled up.

00:41:15.168 --> 00:41:19.708
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So Jens I'm really, really happy with you're a full doctor now.

00:41:19.768 --> 00:41:22.257
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And your research is really good.

00:41:22.628 --> 00:41:26.965
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The variables that you've identified as the most, Important in the process.

00:41:27.235 --> 00:41:30.295
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I am sure they will lead to forming solutions.

00:41:30.655 --> 00:41:34.405
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So your work is not only good, but also is going to get applied.

00:41:35.036 --> 00:41:40.418
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, Most of all, I'm in a way, disappointed with the systems that we far shown in these episodes.

00:41:40.418 --> 00:41:45.068
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe you remember the episode with Anja Boelinghaus, where we discuss the differences between.

00:41:45.338 --> 00:41:50.259
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The bus and train industry in terms of how they treat the reaction to fire off.

00:41:50.443 --> 00:41:52.862
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>upholstered furniture in the vehicles.

00:41:53.612 --> 00:42:02.012
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I have flashbacks to that episode in this episode, because come on, if we consider the roof and PV panel separately, they're great together.

00:42:02.043 --> 00:42:02.432
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They.

00:42:02.509 --> 00:42:05.146
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Somehow dangerous or bad in a way.

00:42:05.655 --> 00:42:14.956
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We need to consider systems as systems, not as a bunch of parts, because then we often miss what's important in making them safe.

00:42:15.436 --> 00:42:17.655
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And this is the important message of the episode.

00:42:17.655 --> 00:42:31.365
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, We have this in many ans of fires and fire engineering, and we really need to learn how to think systems, not products, not items, not elements systems.

00:42:31.726 --> 00:42:34.246
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So yeah, with this thought, I'm going to leave you.

00:42:34.786 --> 00:42:39.795
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The whole next Wednesday where we're gang to have another great episode.

00:42:40.155 --> 00:42:41.746
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The same, I'm really going to deliver the glass up.

00:42:42.525 --> 00:42:46.175
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know I promised it this week with,  It's in the pipeline then.

00:42:46.626 --> 00:42:50.045
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm sure you are getting thoroughly enjoyed that one as well.

00:42:50.286 --> 00:42:53.766
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So if you gave me here for the glass, you've received three panels.

00:42:54.425 --> 00:42:55.806
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I guess that's, that's also good.

00:42:56.135 --> 00:43:01.085
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And uh the glass coming next week see the ansi next wednesday thank you bye