Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep20 - Finding the “Best” Trainer for Your Puppy Should Not Be Your First Priority

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist

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and this is a Puppy Culture

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potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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Oh, look at that.

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Today's question is one that I wrote

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into the Puppy Culture discussion group.

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By way of background, I'm doing a booklet

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to help puppy owners find a safe

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puppy class, an appropriate
puppy class for their puppies.

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And this was my question.

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Tell me what your bottom four or five

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dog trainer certification programs are.

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More than five,
if you feel it's important.

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What would be the ones that raise
an immediate red

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flag for you
when you see them after a trainer's name?

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I'm trying to help puppy owners
steer clear of bad trainers.

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I know the good certification programs.

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It's the bad ones
that I really don't pay attention to. So

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this generated
a lot of interesting conversation.

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A lot of people did answer the question.

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But, you know, a lot of people
gave some pushback about it, saying, well,

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you know, you can’t identify a good or
a bad dog trainer by their certification,

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and I agree with that to an extent that
probably what I should have said was, I'm

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looking for safe versus unsafe for puppies
and I'm going to expound on that.

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Let's start with

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the proposition.

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And the proposition is that

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while I'm not going to wade
into the debate

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on different methods of dog
training or using aversives

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as an adult dog or balance training
or any of that other stuff, I'm just

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you know, when it comes to adult
dogs, I'm not even going there.

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But I'm going to say unequivocally,

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there is never any reason

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to use an aversive on a puppy.

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Puppies are the equivalent of nursery

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school aged children.

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You would never hit a three year old

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and you would run from anybody

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who suggested that you do that.

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And the same should be true
for your puppy.

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I'm extremely interested

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in the science in this area
and any new studies that come out,

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and I'm not an ideologue
when it comes to training methods at all.

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But every study

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that I am aware of,
and there are a number of them,

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there's Megan Heron study,
there's a number of studies about dogs

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trained with positive reinforcement
versus aversive.

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There's the studies about puppies
being scared in the first year of life

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and how that can have a detrimental

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outcome for them
in terms of both dog and human aggression

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and how an aversive training method

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is probably the most likely way a puppy,

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a young puppy is going to be scared
or have a negative experience.

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And zero studies

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that show any benefit, any upside at all

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to using punishment
and aversives on a puppy.

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There's two main arguments

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that people bring up on this subject.

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Number one, that it's natural

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that the mother will use aversives
on the puppy,

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that the mother will quote correct,
unquote, the puppy.

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And that also is wrong.

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Maybe from an evolutionary point of view
it's advantageous

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to the mother to sometime use aversive
or punishment on her puppies

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to resource guard from her puppies,
to be defensive about weaning the puppies.

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Because remember, from an evolutionary
point of view,

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her primary game is to breed again,
produce more.

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If those puppies don't actually need

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to nurse from her anymore
or need to eat the food that she's eating,

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she really doesn't care
if the puppies are damaged emotionally.

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I mean, it's a pretty
simple equation, right?

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Natural is not always best.

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And indeed, as we mentioned in Puppy
Culture, this has been studied

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and damns who use confrontational methods
to wean their puppies,

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in fact, those puppies do turn out

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to have more social handicaps.

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They're more socially inhibited, they're
less outgoing, they're more fearful.

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And then the dams
that use non-confrontational retreat

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or just not snapping
and pinning and growling at them,

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those puppies
grow up to be more confident,

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more outgoing,
more likely to play with humans.

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So, you know, yes, it's natural,

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but you have to ask what nature's game is.

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And nature's
game is not the individual puppy.

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You know, nature doesn't care
about the individual puppy.

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Nature
cares about survival of the species.

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We as breeders
care about individual puppies.

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We as puppy
owners care about individual puppies.

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So I'm just going to knock that argument
right out of the box

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because it's just, it's true,
maybe in some senses that in the wild

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the puppies would experience
some degree of aversives in nature.

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But, you know, a lot of puppies
are going to die and a lot of puppies

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are going to be psychologically
not what we think is optimal for us.

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Again,
as Suzanne Shelton is always saying,

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there's nothing natural about dog
breeding and domestic dogs.

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Okay?
We're not looking for a natural outcome.

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We're looking for
an optimal outcome for us.

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And what we want is not natural.

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We want a friendly dog
that is outgoing and happy.

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And, you know, that's that's just not
what nature, nature provides suspicion,

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suspicion and fear are the things
that keep dogs alive in nature.

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So. All right, cross that one off.

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Then the other argument
that people used was,

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well,
you know, it's wrong to give puppy owners

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a list of certifications and say
these are good ones and these are bad ones

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because a certification doesn't indicate
which trainer is a good trainer.

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That there are some quote
unquote, balanced trainers

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who will do a much better job with puppies

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than pure positive trainers.

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And, you know, I can't argue with that.

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I don't disagree with that.

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Certainly some of my top dog training

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mentors have not been above
dipping into all four quadrants.

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I mean, certainly they've used
some suppression on dogs at times.

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And I've done seminars all over the world

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and frankly been aghast at how

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lacking in basic training,
mechanical skills,

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a lot of pure positive trainers are.

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Just an inability to slice and dice
and shape behaviors,

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which a lot of these balance
trainers are a lot better at that.

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So while that's true that this is not,

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you know, separating trainers
by certification is not going

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to identify the better trainers,
what it is going to do

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and this is what's
important to me as a breeder

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is it's going to identify why the trainers

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who are ethically bound not to use

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aversives and punishment on puppies.

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And it's going to separate those trainers
from the trainers

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who are highly skilled and trained

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in using aversive methods.

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A trainer
that is highly skilled and trained

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in using a pinch collar, a shock collar

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or any kind of other

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aversive, has that in their toolkit?

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Okay, It's a possibility.
It's on the table.

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And if they're really good at it,

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it's probably something
they're going to reach for.

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You can argue with me,
but I'm going to tell you I never, ever

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want to hear that that was used on
any puppy of mine because it's wrong.

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So I'm not saying
that this is going to help people

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find the greatest trainer in the world,
but it's going to keep puppy owners safe.

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It's going to keep them in a place.

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If you go with a pet
professional guild trainer, I mean,

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they take an ethical oath that they're
not going to use any aversives.

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So as a dog breeder,
when I send my puppy owners out

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and listen,
I do partner with my puppy owners, okay?

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I help them find trainers.

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That's one of the things that we work on
before I place the puppy.

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We've selected a trainer for them,
but even so,

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sometimes the puppy owners will take it
upon themselves or they'll go to a trainer

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and they can't get in the class
and they see another trainer

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and they think like,
Oh, this is this is okay.

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They don't understand what's going on.

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And again, as a breeder,
I feel like I'm just sending my puppy

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owners out into literally a minefield
that like that,

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there's no way they're going to be able
to negotiate this.

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There just isn't. So

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making it very black and white.

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Okay.

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And saying these trainers,
you'll be safe with these trainers,

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not that they're going to be
the best trainers in the world,

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but they're not going to do an alpha role
or a scruff

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or put a pinch collar on your dog
or a shock collar on your dog, traumatize

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your puppy
and basically send you to behavior

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modification boot camp
for the rest of your life with that dog

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That, none of that's going to happen.

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If you go to a pet
professional guild trainer.

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They may stink.

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They may not successfully teach your puppy

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how to lie down or walk on leash,
but who cares?

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I don't care.

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There's so many resources online.

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We've got our own puppy course, With Open
Arms and a Level Head puppy course.

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I teach you how to teach your dog
to do anything.

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It's not rocket science, okay?

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There's a lot of really competent,

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positive trainers.

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It's not hard to find one.

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So again, if you happen to hit
on a bad positive trainer,

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the worst thing that happens is
your dog doesn't get trained.

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If you hit on a bad trainer
that uses aversives and punishment

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on your puppy, your puppy can be just
messed up for life, quite frankly.

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It only takes one traumatic experience

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for a young puppy to be traumatized
for the rest of its life.

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Why would you take that risk?

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I am a huge

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proponent of puppy class
and without a doubt,

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when you can get into a good puppy
class, it's a gift.

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But you know what?

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A good puppy class is not a requirement.

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It's a luxury.

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And frankly, training is way overrated.

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The important thing about puppy
class is more that the puppy just

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learns to

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do some kind of training
activity in public.

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Okay.

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It's just the concept that we were here.

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We focus on our owners.
There's these other puppies.

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I'm experiencing all this stuff,
the ramping up, the ramping down,

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the entry, the exit,
all that sort of stuff is important.

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But the real meat of it,
like how well your puppy

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is trained at the end,
I mean, it doesn't really matter.

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The best dog I ever had.

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You all know her, Daphne.

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The best dog did not know how to lie down.

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Yeah, I know. Dirty secret.

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My dog did not know how to lie down.

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I mean, eventually I did train her
because we, we needed a rally title

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for our Versatility awards
when she was like eight years old

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I'm like, alright,
I guess I need to train this dog now.

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But, you know, training,

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she she,
she knew how to walk on leash, basically,

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I did

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trainer in agility
some but she didn't know how to lie down.

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It didn't
not affect my enjoyment of that dog

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the most challenging

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and frankly unpleasant dog
to live with that I ever had

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was Ruby, who, by the way, was ranked

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nationally in APDT rally.

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The APDT doesn't do rally anymore,
but in the day they were the first ones.

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I think if not one of the first ones,
the first ones to do rally.

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And she was top five in the country.

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Top five in the country.

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But oh my gosh,
what a terrible dog to live with.

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She actually enjoyed disliking other dogs.

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She was so dog aggressive and,

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you know, a lot of the reason
why I'm the dog trainer I am today

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is because I just had to train that dog
to within an inch of her life

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in order for her to interface
successfully in public.

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And frankly, around the house, she was,
I would say, indifferent to people.

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I mean, she would like people if she felt
she had a use for you at that moment,

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but she wasn't, you know, warm and fuzzy
kind of dog.

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I loved her dearly, dearly,

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and did
not take away from my love for the dog.

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But she was a terrible dog to live with.

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I'm just going to say it,
but very well trained.

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My point here is Ruby,

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you know, I got at four

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and a half months old, Daphne
I raised from birth.

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Is that the big difference
between those two dogs?

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I mean, I think a lot is genetic,
but I think a lot really did have to do

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with Ruby, you know,
having had a different set of hands

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raising her in the beginning.

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So I guess what I'm saying to you is that

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how you teach something

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is much more important
than what you teach.

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And you can live very happily
with an untrained dog.

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So don't feel that
if you can't find a safe dog trainer

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that you have to run
to a bad training class,

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00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,560
or that you should really
look at balanced trainers for your puppy

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because you know,
they may be able to get you better results

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because the result you're looking for
is that you have a dog

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that's a pleasure to live with
and not a behavioral project.

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And the people that are going to be able
to most reliably deliver that to you

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are the people
who are not going to use aversives

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00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,280
and punishment on your dog.

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00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,920
If you liked this podcast,
you'll love our Puppy owner course

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00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,880
available at madcapuniversity.com.

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00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,000
If you're a breeder,
check out our breeder course

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00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,960
also available at madcapuniversity.com.

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00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,960
Breeders, if you want to get your puppy
owners started the right way,

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00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,760
check out our bulk discounts
for multiple copies

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00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,040
of our puppy course at puppyculture.com.

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00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,720
Well that's it for this time.

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Thanks for listening.

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Bye bye.