Ken Rosenthal on Blue Jays injury nightmare, Contreras threat, Hoerner deal + Sahadev Sharma talks Cubs

00:00:06
Speaker 1: Here's Ken Rosenthal the Inside Scoop with you, and it's the FT senior insider who was on FS one last night in studio talking about the Blue Jays Dodgers series, among other topics. So let's start there, Ken, what were your observations from one game out of one point sixty two, but how it tells the story of the recent run for the Dodgers and the Blue Jays to start the season.

00:00:27
Speaker 2: The thing that I took away from this game was Max Scherzer and Max schers are coming out of the game after two innings with a right forearm issue. It never sounds good when you hear the word forum, but John Schneider, the Blue Jays managers, said after the game that they don't expect this to be anything serious. We'll see and the reason why this is so significant obviously not just for Scherzer, who is in the middle or the end of his Hall of Fame career, but from the Blue Jays perspective, they already have five starting pitchers on the injured list, Brios Bieber, Ya Savage and if you want to count Boden Francis, which you showed, he's out for the year. So they cannot afford to lose anymore. And if she's a missus any length of time where it's not the same picture for a two period of time, cannot go four or five innings. It's not a great situation. So that's what I'm anxious to see kind of out of this game. Otherwise, the game itself, I mean, fourteen to one seven Dodgers had two hits or more home runs all over the place. It wasn't much of a game.

00:01:29
Speaker 3: People on Twitter were saying, Oh, how much more can we talk about Game seven? Is there any more of a great story to be able to cover this? Like, I want fans to understand how amazing Game seven was, because we would be talking about Game six had Game seven not been so amazing. So can you put to rest those people who are like, oh, let's get over it and tell them that it was awesome.

00:01:56
Speaker 2: It was awesome. And there are people who also tell us not to write about show so much. We hear it all kinds of ways. Whatever we write one way or the other, we're kind of getting it. So that's the nature of the world today. But let's just talk about Game seven.

00:02:10
Speaker 4: Why not?

00:02:10
Speaker 2: Because it was one of the great world series games, if not the greatest World series game in history. And if you go back and replay it, as many fans have and many writers have and other people, you see just how unusual and how great that game was. So for people who are tired of it, go read something else. I can tell you. In the Athletic. We have plenty of stories every day. If you don't want to read about one particular topic, you can read about another. If you hate Ken Rosenthal, you got a zillion other writers to read, so please say it.

00:02:43
Speaker 3: Don't hate Ken Rosenthal, okay, because Ken Rosenthal does a great job, and he's my friend, he's right.

00:02:48
Speaker 4: Next to me.

00:02:49
Speaker 3: But speaking of somebody that isn't friends with somebody? Can you take us through the whole womb Wilson contraras saga with the Brewers, and my question through the whole thing. Once we get through the whole saga of hit my pitches and stuff. If a player says I'm gonna take one of those guys out publicly and then does it, isn't there a suspension possibly looming for something like that? A malicious slide into second I'm not.

00:03:19
Speaker 2: Even sure saying it is that kosher with MLB. I'm not sure they wanted to hear anything like that coming from a player. Now, the history for people who might not be familiar, and actually I was not aware that it was twenty four times he has been hit by a pitch by Milwaukee Brewers' pitchers. Now part of that, of course, is because he's been playing in the division for so long, so there's a greater frequency. And that said, twenty four is twenty four, and you can understand why Wilson Contreras would be upset. But yet you saw the Brewers quotes from yellowch and Woodruff, and they basically thought it was kind of an act. It was basically him trying to fire up his team. Maybe a little bit of both. I don't know that. We'll Contreras was pretending to be angry about this. It seemed like he was legitimately angry. And what was also interesting here is the pitch that hit him maybe didn't hit him at all. So it's one of those baseball things. I don't expect there to be carryover, and if there is, then obviously the league will have to act. And frankly, the Red Sox need to win games. They need to not worry about this kind of thing again in the moment, I get it with Wilson Contreras, and I even understand what he said after the game, But they've got to win games. They cannot carry this over until tonight and the next day and have this become the story of the series when the story for the Red Sox is their record right now, which is not good.

00:04:43
Speaker 5: Well, I hate to continue the story, but I do have a question. So it turned you mentioned he's been hit twenty four times by the Brewers and his career six times, specifically by Brandon Woodruff. As someone who only hit ten guys in his career, I can't imagine hitting the same player six times, and he's been hit one hundred and thirty one times in his career. So I guess the overarching question here is why do we think that this even became a thing in the first place. Do you think it has something to do with how you pitch Wilson Contraras's because it is a pattern. He does get hit a lot just in general. Is it throwing in and then it just became something or do you think that that maybe there's a little bit maybe more maliciousness, Maybe not this time, but in the past at times things got heated, you know, a lah Ronald Lacuna Junior and the Marlins.

00:05:34
Speaker 4: We're for a little bit there. Which one do you think is more likely?

00:05:39
Speaker 2: Trevor, It's probably a little bit of both. And that's a guess on my part. And I don't have a scouting report in front of me on how to pitch Wilson Contreras. But like most hitters, you want to crowd him and that's probably the best way to approach him.

00:05:52
Speaker 4: He's a good hitter.

00:05:53
Speaker 2: And the other part of it is he is kind of a fiery guy, the kind of guy you love to have on your team, and if he's not on your team, you don't love them as much. But I'm not sure what is going on exactly there, And I would guess speculate probably a little bit of both of what you said. Yes, they're trying to pitch him that way, and yes, maybe at times they have gone in because they wanted to go in and tick him off.

00:06:20
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00:07:20
Speaker 3: Now, you wrote an article about Nico Horner's contract extension, not contract contract extension and kind of historic I forget exact words that you used. Kind of historic or a landmark extension on whose side, the team side, or the player side.

00:07:40
Speaker 4: The player side.

00:07:41
Speaker 2: And here's a guy who has hit thirty six career home runs thirty six. Cal Rowley had almost twice that accounting post season last year alone. And yet Nico Horner got a one hundred and forty one million dollar contract because of all of the other things he does, and because also we are able to measure some of what he does in better ways than before. Defensively, base running, these things all have numbers assigned to them now and there is a greater appreciation and understanding of what players like Nico Horner can bring. And the other part of his thing is his makeup, which is extraordinary and danceby Swanson talks about it in the article and I'm curious what you guys think of this. He said that there are very few players who are totally devoted to their craft and trying to get better on an individual basis, and also totally devoted to their team. Obviously, guys are not necessarily selfish, but very few guys pour it all in both buckets, and he does. And the Cubs recognize that. They recognize that he plays an up the middle position, and if he had gone to free agency, teams would have looked at him some teams as a shortstop and that would have increased his value. So he had a lot of things working in his favor in this negotiation.

00:08:59
Speaker 4: But he is a player as well.

00:09:02
Speaker 3: So now the next three players that are going to be available in the market that are kind of in his ILK. You mentioned in your article Jazz Chisholm, who hit thirty home runs, the home runs that you talked about, thirty stolen bases, and Boba Schett, while he plays a different position, kind of in that ILK. Will they use this contract because they're in free agency? Would they use this contract? Or is this contract because it wasn't in the free agent market teams are going to or teams are going to say, well, you know that was just a one off case. Or do you feel like the players will be able to use this contract that Nico got.

00:09:41
Speaker 2: They're different kinds of players, and they're more offensively oriented, both of those guys, especially actually, I would say especially both they're offensive players. Kashett is not a great defender, and Jazz is I would say, a good defender, not an elite defender like Nico Horner is. So when I ref them in the story. What I was talking about was the weakness of the free agent market that is upcoming, and those two guys are going to be perhaps the best two hitters available, not just the best two infielders, the best two hitters overall. And that's if Boba Schett opts out of his deal with the Mets, and this is your one of potential three. So ultimately, I would expect that in their minds, they're thinking as free agents, not just negotiating with one team. They're gonna beat one hundred and forty one. Certainly, Bobashett beat it on an AAV basis in a big way. Niko Horner's AAV is twenty three point five. Bobashett is something like forty two. He might not get forty two over six years. He might, I don't know, but he's going to be looking for a bigger deal and Jazz. It depends on what he does. He has talked about going fifty to fifty that's going to be difficult. Obviously, forty forty that'll be difficult too. If he does another thirty thirty, that's a pretty good player, right, So he's going to do well, and in an open market situation, probably beat Horner as well.

00:11:06
Speaker 3: One of the things you mentioned was in the article you mentioned the largest contracts the Cubs have given out Jason Hayward, Dansby Swanson, PCA, and now Nico Horner, all defensive while still very good offensive players, all defensive specialists. Is this because the Cubs see a value in not just the defense obviously, but the fact that they can pay less for defense because other teams are paying more for offense and saying eh on the defense.

00:11:41
Speaker 2: I would say both, and yes, they value defense, and the Hayward deal was the first of these deals to show that kind of value. Jason Hayward, even at the time, was not thought of as really an offensive force. He was one of the first players that was valued because of his all around game and he received a great contract at the time for that. And since then, yes, they've continued what Jed Hoyer, their president Baseball Operations, closed their connective tissue in emphasizing defense as a quality they desired. Now at the same time, yes, defense costs less than offense does. And I don't know that, oh, I don't know that that is an overt motivation on their part, but certainly is the team that is not spent big in free agency. That could be part of it.

00:12:32
Speaker 5: Ken In the off season when Bregman was signed, there was rumblings around that the Rickets historically have tried to standard that luxury tax I. Believe the agreed upon av for Bregman at that time was put them like one million dollars under the first and they weren't going to go over. So a guy being floated, possibly being moved in the last year of his contract was Nico Horner. That obviously is not the case now with this deal. You know, you talked about it in your piece about the Ledger and how these things kind of lay out. How does now do this deal slot in moving forward to keep them in because they're pretty tight when they come to their salary. How does that now play out with Horner, assuming that the CBA continues somewhat close to what it is now.

00:13:21
Speaker 2: Right before Bregman Trevor, their commitments beyond this season were minuscule at the level of the Cleveland Guardians, which was to say, minimal commitments all around. It was something like, I don't know, twenty seven million for next year. It's since gone up, but they still have financial flexibility and they're going to need it because they still have a number of potential free agents. Now it's a group that not all of those players will be resigned. Tyne and Boyd from the pitching side, Saya Suzuki, Ian Haf from the offensive side, Carson Kelly. There's some other players as well who are free agents, a number of their relievers. I'm not going to sign them all, but they should be in great shape going forward from a financial perspective, from a luxury tax perspective, if that system continues, I don't see that being a problem for them. And as I pointed out in the story, one of the reasons they could sign these guys, and one of the reasons they've been more aggressive was they had to sign somebody because they had no long term commitments for the most part. So these are steps in the right direction, yes, but steps that were somewhat necessary as well.

00:14:29
Speaker 1: Much more information in the story, so we encourage you to check it out. It's in Kenzole's section if you search for him in The Athletic, or you can find it on their MLB homepage. Ken good stuff. Thank you, talk to you later in the week.

00:14:41
Speaker 4: Thanks guys.

00:14:42
Speaker 1: Yes, it is North Side territory, Saidav Sharman. Also, you can catch all of his articles in the Athletic covering the Cubs. So we had to make an emergency batphone call to Ya Sahadev. Since the Cubs have been suffering some starting pitching injuries that do.

00:14:57
Speaker 7: Not look good, Matthew Boyd butch better news. This came out of nowhere for us at least. Uh But apparently he's been dealing with some soreness for a little bit, and it's the type of thing where you know there's always soreness after a start, but this was lingering a little longer. The team basically told boy look, let's not push this, Let's just take two weeks, have everything calm down.

00:15:22
Speaker 4: He's going to continue throwing. He's not. It's not like they should. They're shutting him down. Sounds like everyone is just saying like he's back in two weeks. I think that's much better news.

00:15:33
Speaker 7: Even when I talk to people like on background, they're they're pretty clear that this is this is a minor thing. So unless something weird happens, which you know does happen in baseball with injuries, unless there's a setback here, they're fine with Boyd.

00:15:47
Speaker 4: It's two weeks without him. They they have been.

00:15:50
Speaker 7: Planning for this, They've been talking about it all spring as far as pitching depth, pitching depth, pitching depth. That they have to go this early to kind of dip into that pitching depth obviously not ideal.

00:16:02
Speaker 3: I mean, Matthew Chris Saile Boyd is what he looked like in his first two starts. I get at the era. Wasn't there could part of this? Did anybody ask him? Could part have have been the fact that he was racking up so many strikeouts? I mean, I think it was seventeen strikeouts and nine innings to start the seasons. And it's I'm not saying that strikeouts hurt your arm. It's how you go after those strikeouts, especially you're gonna bring up the acronym WBC. Oh no, that could have been something with that.

00:16:37
Speaker 7: Yeah, he said it was the He said he felt like he could have been the cold exacerbated by the cold, the pitch, this weather. You know, I've lived in the Midwest my entire life. I should be used to this. It's it's been insane, but yoyoing back and forth seventy five one day and then literally.

00:16:54
Speaker 4: Twelve hours later, it's thirty degrees.

00:16:56
Speaker 7: And that's happened multiple times to the Cubs, both in Cago and Cleveland. They're in Tampa now in a dome, so at least they have some steadiness there. But he did say some of the cold was there. When I asked him about the jump in strikeouts, Look the stuff, like the metrics of the stuff didn't change, the velocity hasn't had like a huge jump. Those are some of the warning signs. I would say, You're right, WBC is always an issue and always concern I hesitate without knowing for sure. It's just hard to like pinpoint that when when talking to him about the jump in strikeouts, he felt like he was locating his fastball really well at the top of the zone, something he hasn't always done and frankly hasn't tried to do, and something that he felt he was doing really well and was leading to a ton of swinging miss Like I said, these guys are he Both he and Council were adamant that this was a minor situation. So I think they're just I think on the outside looking in, you just have to hope that's true. I don't think Council's pretty careful about how he phrases things. It's not like he's he's been over the top up babistic about Kate Horton. He was pretty out of it. Uh, you know, this is a minor thing. He'll be back in two weeks.

00:18:08
Speaker 5: You mentioned you wrote an article recently in the in the The Athletic about Pete co ro Armstrong PCA and an increase in in bat speed, something that usually and we just had you know, Sarah's on talking about how it's usually a good thing, but PA said maybe in this case.

00:18:26
Speaker 4: It might not be. So what what did PCA say? And I hate to bring it up once again?

00:18:32
Speaker 5: You know he mentioned possibly being late, but do we think that the increase in this bat speed could be linked to playing really high pressure baseball out of the gate in the WBC.

00:18:45
Speaker 7: So talking to both him and their hitting coach, Dustin Kelly, this this happens with Pete. I think his I think his bat speed was way up early last year and then it kind of tapered down and when he was at his hottest, it wasn't It's not like it was slow, but it wasn't.

00:19:00
Speaker 4: At its at its peak. The bat speed.

00:19:03
Speaker 7: He says he's doing it to catch up. He feels like that's what's happening. He doesn't have it. It's not like he trained for this. A lot of guys will say, oh, I trained for more bat speed. That's this is not intentional as far as Peak's concerned. It is something that kind of goes in cycles with him. I've seen charts that kind of show his bat speed over the course of last season, and and it was very much like up and down, and like Dustin Kelly told me, it was. It's not something that he needs, like peak bat speed to be at his best. His timing needs to be right. He needs to he wants to hit the ball in the air up the middle. Right right now, he's pulling the ball on the ground. When he's at his best. He he says his goal is up the middle. But when he's at his best, he's pulling the ball in the air. And he even he admitted he said, yes, when I'm locked in, that just tends to be what happens. It's not his goal, but it's what happens. And yeah, like that's kind of like Craig Council jokes about it. Oh, while breaking news it's good to pull the.

00:20:00
Speaker 4: Ball hard in the air.

00:20:02
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's it's like something that you don't try to do that, but when you're kind of locked in, it's you know, it's Alex Bregman. The Cubs were one of the best teams in baseball last year pulling the ball in the air, and they add someone like Bregman who does it is a specialist at it. So when Pete's right, that's what he's doing. I don't think he hit a ball like four hundred something feet to dead center in Cleveland that got caught, But other than that, I'm not seeing that hard line drive pull it. And just you know, Yank went out of the park. He said he kind of felt like this at the start of the WBC and then and then we saw what happened towards the end of the WBC with his production. And I need to remind fans just how bad he was at the start of last season. For about two weeks, it's like, is this guy ever gonna hit type thing? Is he just a defensive specialist? And then he went off in LA and kind of never looked back until the final month and a half or so of the season, when he struck and he may just be that type of player where there's these high highs low lows. Obviously he'd prefer more consistency. I would not be surprised if it just comes out of nowhere where all of a sudden, Pete has, you know, a few rockets that he pulls in the air and and.

00:21:17
Speaker 4: He gets on a hot streak.

00:21:19
Speaker 7: I kind of feel that way about a few of these guys on offense who are just it seems like searching for it. And that's that's a part of this team that I think has to step up after what.

00:21:30
Speaker 4: We just talked about. With all those injuries.

00:21:33
Speaker 3: Nobody will ever be able to put a number on this other than how they do with the guy in the lineup.

00:21:37
Speaker 4: And how they do with the guy out of the lineup.

00:21:40
Speaker 3: Seya Suzuki, when he is on this team, had one of the better offenses in the first half. He had I think seventy nine or eighty RBIs at the All Star Game or at the All Star break in the game that he didn't get to go to.

00:21:55
Speaker 4: Be Nuns.

00:21:56
Speaker 3: To me, I'm not sure why, but either way, when he rejoins the line line up, don't you feel like some of this, like some of these guys who aren't driving the ball don't feel like they have to drive the ball because he is that RBI guy, or with Regman coming in, is say you're gonna play a different role in this lineup once he's back. I think Friday, he's coming back, and I'm not mistaken that's expectation.

00:22:19
Speaker 4: Two more games.

00:22:20
Speaker 7: I think two more games in Knoxville and then come back for the weekend in at Wrigley.

00:22:25
Speaker 4: Uh yeah.

00:22:26
Speaker 7: I think he's a huge part of this offense and just you know, a huge power source for this offense. I believe it was thirty two homers last year. Uh yeah, they don't. They haven't had a lot of slug. It's come here and there. Ian Hap has some slug so far early in the season, but guys just aren't. There's no consistent extra base hits with men on base right now. They don't have those big hits. I think some of it is just like whether it's says Suzuki relieving some stress or just someone coming up with a big clutch hit. They've had some hits. I had some, you know, they've driven to runs. It's not like the offense has been completely missing, but it's one of those games. They need one of those games where they're down six to four in the seventh and someone hits a three er run shot and it's like, there's that big hit. We know how to come back and win, we know how to put up runs. I think they need a moment like that. Saya doing it would be ideal, and I do think they're they're absolutely missing his bat. It makes them a much more potent lineup, a deeper lineup. I think Carson Kelly's rarely quality player. Right now, he's batting clean up pretty consistently.

00:23:34
Speaker 4: I don't think.

00:23:34
Speaker 7: That's the ideal way you should build out this lineup when everybody's healthy. That's not to say he's not a quality offensive player. I think he's been pretty good and he doesn't look that bad at the plate right now. It's just that that you want, say Suzuki right there.

00:23:50
Speaker 3: All right, we've talked to rotation injuries, but we cannot talk to rotate, talk about the rotation and not talk about Edward Cabrera and the way that he has started is that start because other organizations, somebody goes to the Rays, Oh they unlocked this new thing. Somebody goes to Dodgers, ooh, they unlocked this new thing. Is there something that Edward Cabrera is doing differently now with the Cubs in his first two starts where I think he's gone eleven or twelve innings and only given up two hits. If Confordo had caught that one, I don't know where we would have been had he caught that one. But is there something new that he's doing that can be sustained throughout the entire year for this team?

00:24:28
Speaker 7: So with them, when I talked to the pitching coaches or anyone in the front office, they weren't trying to reinvent Edward Cabrera. They weren't trying to change him completely. There's two things I would say that. First of all, they really focus on his health. How do we keep this guy healthy? What are the things we can do to maintain his health?

00:24:47
Speaker 4: That's key?

00:24:48
Speaker 7: Obviously with what we talked about already, they want to keep him healthy. It's imperative that they do now it's all the more important that they do. So the second thing is last year he went more sink heavy when he between his fastballs. He was going sinker over four seam He prefers using his four seamer. The problem with that initially is he loses more command of that pitch that can lead to more walks. But he believes, and I think the Cubs do as well, that it pairs better with both his change up, which is super unique and very hard. It pairs better with the change up and his breaking balls kind of throws it to a more distinct area that's going to be up in the zone or above the zone, while the sinker is going to look more like the change up, and with that smaller velo difference, I think both he and the staff kind of want it to be use the four seam more than the sinker, and he's admitted flat out that he feels more comfortable throwing it. Does that mean we're going to see him jump in walks again? I think that's the only concern you have with that.

00:25:53
Speaker 4: There. He was great.

00:25:54
Speaker 7: He's been great in these first two starts. The first start not a lot of walks. I think maybe one second one a lot more walks, and that would be the concern is the is the walk.

00:26:04
Speaker 4: Rate going to jump?

00:26:05
Speaker 7: Because I think they solved some of those issues by using the sinker last year in Miami, but he wants to use the four team. He thinks he'll have his stuff play up more. And I totally get the logic about that. It's just are we going to see a twelve percent walk rate again? Which is kind of what's held him back from, Like, here's this stud with all this amazing stuff, But can he really harness it and command it? It's two starts, so I don't want to say like he can't do that, but that would be the thing to watch the four seam usage and the jump in that and then and does that lead to more walks? Or can he command it and just unlock this? You know, beast of a pitcher?

00:26:47
Speaker 4: All right?

00:26:47
Speaker 3: If nothing changes between now and Friday, when the Cubs come back home and play the Pirates and the flags for people who haven't been to regularly, the flags fly and everybody looks at him, and it's each team is based on their their spot in the standings, and the Cubs are currently at the bottom of the totem pole. Who are they most worried about at the top? Is it the I can't believe how the undaunt what is it undaunted or daunted daunting team in Milwaukee or is it the Reds who have won four straight? Who are they most worried about of the teams that are ahead of them, which is everybody in the division right now.

00:27:25
Speaker 7: I mean, if you ask them, they're going to say, we're concerned with ourselves right that They're going to give you that answer. Like I think you have to be most worried about the Brewers. The Brewers keep winning. They they're the team. They defending NL Central champs. They beat the Cubs in the playoffs. They have the Cub's number right now, and they have the NL Central's number. They have just an impressively well run organization. They could trade cy young candidates, they can lose MVP candidates. It seems like they have a never ending group of players that they can call upon. They seem to always if they don't win a trade, they break even. They're really good at pretty much everything you need to do to win on a not huge budget.

00:28:17
Speaker 4: It's very impressive.

00:28:19
Speaker 7: We go through this in cycles in baseball. Who are the darling small organizations? Cleveland, Tampa Bay. I think right now they're the undisputed small organization that everyone looks to and says, how are they doing that? And what can we copy from them? Because it is remarkably impressive. I'm I never write them off anymore.

00:28:39
Speaker 4: I used to years.

00:28:40
Speaker 7: Ago say I don't know if I look at look at this team on paper, what's so impressive about them? And then they just keep winning and winning and winning, and they're doing it again to start the year. I think you have to be worried about the Brewers, not because of the start by the Cubs or the start by the Brewers, just because of what they do year in and year out. And yes, I like the rights to the great manager, great team, a lot of pitching talent, and even the Pirates are look like a solid team. They got to have a lot of pitching to contend with. So it is not going to be a cakewalk for the Cubs. If anyone thought that they were deluding themselves, this is a pretty solid division with a team and the Brewers that is going to contend a year and a year out, it seems like.

00:29:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Brewers have become the Rays in terms of owners being jealous of what they're doing. David Stern's gone, Craig Council gone, Corbyn Burns traded, Freddie perraulta traded even this year. Churio's heard there's a number of injuries already piling up for them and it just doesn't really matter right now they're contending, so it's impressive. I'm with you. So I had a good catching up man, appreciate the time as always, and for everyone else. Much more information on the cubs, of course, and as soon as that Kate Horton news comes out, you know they'll have a new episode of north Side Territory Talks. Oh there it is QR code on your screen. It's really big, so you can't miss to get their YouTube channel and their podcast platforms.

00:30:03
Speaker 4: Thank you, Sad, Thanks guys. Stick here

00:30:09
Speaker 2: M