286 | CCPT Purism: How Garry Landreth Established and Preserved the Integrity of the Child-Centered Play Therapy Model

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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we are talking further in the CCPT purism series

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today about Garry Landreth,

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the man himself.

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And

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what a fun series.

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I really truly am enjoying this and I know that you all have given me feedback,

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so I appreciate it.

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By the way,

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if you are new to the podcast,

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maybe this is the very first episode you've ever listened to.

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So glad you're here.

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Welcome.

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You have found

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an absolutely supportive,

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encouraging,

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amazing community.

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So really glad that you're here.

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Not to

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say don't listen.

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Finish this episode,

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but then please go back and listen in order.

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From episode one

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so that you really get a seminal training and

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understanding of the theory and of the model.

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I know new people find the podcast every single day,

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which is so amazing to me

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to

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been given the opportunity to have this platform,

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and thank you to all of my vets,

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those of you that have been around from the very beginning.

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Thank you to.

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All of you who so faithfully and

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tirelessly promote this podcast to your colleagues

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and your co-workers and other therapists,

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and thank you to those of you

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who faithfully and tirelessly promote the parenting podcast

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to your families and your clients.

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Both podcast audiences have grown so much

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in Recent months and I know that that is because of how invested you all are in

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you are all in

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whatever

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in this

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in this podcast with me.

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So I love y'all you know that,

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but if you are new,

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we're so glad you're here.

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If you've been around,

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I'm super appreciative for how long you've hung out with me

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and all the places that we go together.

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So,

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let's dive into Garry Landreth today,

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and I love the idea of exploring how he became the central figure.

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In the

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official formalizing and naming

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of child-centered play therapy

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because Rogers,

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Axline and the Guerneys,

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which we've covered in earlier episodes,

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they laid the practical foundation

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and they established the philosophical

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principles,

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but Landreth gave the model structure

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and clarity and actually provided it with a name.

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And that allowed

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its legacy to continue in such a way that stayed true to its roots.

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So we're gonna dive in a little bit to his contributions.

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So we've looked at Rogers,

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Axline the Gurneys.

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Today we're moving into what I would consider to be the modern

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era of CCPT.

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And when it was named and then defined

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and then has since been defended.

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One of the most important.

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People

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in that scenario is Garry Landreth.

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He did not invent CCPT obviously,

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we've already talked about its origins,

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but he gave it what I would consider to be its

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known identity.

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And he has helped generations of therapists understand what it is,

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but maybe more importantly,

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what it isn't.

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And I think that that is probably more important than maybe what it is.

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It's what it isn't.

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That's really powerful.

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And for those of you that maybe do not know this,

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I don't say this often.

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I think my coaching folks know this,

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maybe the Collective members,

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I'm not sure,

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but

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I am one person removed from Garry Landreth.

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So I was at the University of South Florida.

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And Jennifer Baggerley left UNT,

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got a position at USF,

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and she taught me child-centered play therapy

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and she taught under Garry Landreth at UNT so.

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We always talk about,

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well,

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we,

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I say Eric and I talk.

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I don't know that everyone talks about this,

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probably not,

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we're the weirdos,

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but we talk about your CCPT tree.

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We use that phrase a lot,

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you know,

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what's your,

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what's your training?

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What is the path

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through which you learned about CCPT?

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And many times it's not really a direct path.

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It's a workshop here and a conference here and a training here and a conference whatever,

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you know,

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so it's kind of piecemeal.

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But then there are others,

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it's like,

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oh,

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I learned about it in grad school from this professor.

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Well,

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where did that professor learn about it?

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Oh,

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from this person.

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So you can usually trace back kind of like a family tree,

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if you will,

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your roots

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in CCPT.

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So I always think about Landreth and then Baggerly and then myself,

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and I'm so grateful for that.

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I mean,

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gosh,

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I've thought about that so many times.

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Baggerly was only at USF for a very short window before she moved back to Texas.

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And I think about that all the time.

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I would have never been exposed.

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I mean maybe through another channel,

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but Baggerly is the reason that I learned about play therapy in the first place,

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and

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she trained under Landreth and she trained me and

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was a huge support and mentor for me,

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continues to be so.

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I still text her once in a while and check in on things.

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And we,

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we all have that story of

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how did we come to know about CCPT,

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fall in love with CCPT,

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and what is the path

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from the top down.

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And you know that whole like 7 stages of separation from Kevin Bacon thing

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which

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I still don't really fully understand that whole thing,

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but

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anyway,

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you know how many degrees of separation

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do you have from

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one of these pioneers

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and maybe you can't even track that,

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but that's always interesting to consider because

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different camps teach different things even within CCPT,

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you know.

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You have Van Fleet,

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you have the Cochrans,

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you have Landreth.

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There are some variations

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of CCPT and so it's important to know

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what your direct path is.

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And

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because I'm

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talking to you all,

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you are 100% in the Landreth path

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because

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Landreth, Baggerly me,

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now you,

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you are 100% in the Landreth tree,

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just to let you know.

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So let's look about look a little bit about Garry Landreth.

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So he was a professor at University of North Texas.

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He actually founded the Center for Play Therapy there.

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He was deeply influenced by Axline's work

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because it was so firmly rooted in person

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centered theory.

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He

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shared with me on a phone call a while ago that he was

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communicating with Carl Rogers.

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Directly several times communicating with Axline several times

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and therefore he took all of that information

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and spent decades teaching

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and writing

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and supervising and advocating

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for the pure practice of CCPT.

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So why did he name it child-centered play therapy?

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I think it's important to kind of dive into that for a second.

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It emphasizes that the child is central.

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It is not the therapist,

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it is not an objective,

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it's not a treatment plan or a goal.

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And this separated

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this model from other play therapy approaches

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that tended to be more directive

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or structured or protocol based.

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And when you think about the name,

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if you break it down.

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Who leads

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the child.

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What's central?

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The child's internal process.

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And what's our role

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to support,

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not direct.

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And when you

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think about those components.

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Child leads,

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the child's internal process is central and we support,

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we don't direct.

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That encompasses the entire model

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in the name,

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which is why I love the simplicity of the name.

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And his message has always been,

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it's not what you do with a child that heals,

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it's who you are in the relationship.

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This

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is why we talk about this is a way of being.

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It's a process of becoming.

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It's expectancy,

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not expectation.

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We don't do this,

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we are this.

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I mean,

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I,

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I beat those phrases into your heads for a reason

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because that's Landreth's core message with the

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whole development of child-centered play therapy.

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It is not what you do with a child that heals it is who you are in the relationship.

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And he consistently called therapists back to the essence of the model

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again and again

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your presence.

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Trust

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and emotional availability

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if you have those three components

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that is fully child-centered in nature.

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So as you know,

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I hope if you don't,

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if you're new,

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if you have never

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done any kind of deep dive into CCPT,

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then

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this is a really helpful series for you.

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If you are not familiar with Art of the Relationship,

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you need to own that book,

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you need to read that book,

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and you need to deeply understand

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what is in that book.

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It was first published in '91.

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It is now in its fourth edition,

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and it is the definitive text

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on CCPT.

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There are clinical examples in there.

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There's very clear articulation of what it means

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to fully be

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child-centered,

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and

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you get all kinds of stuff in that book.

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I mean,

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honestly,

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I can't even tell you all the richness in it,

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but I mean,

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you get rationale behind non-directivity,

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you get your,

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you know,

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4 pillars and the core tenants,

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00:09:51,690 --> 00:09:53,400
you get how to structure your playroom,

281
00:09:53,650 --> 00:09:55,409
you get the therapist mindset.

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I mean,

283
00:09:56,090 --> 00:09:57,039
everything you could think of

284
00:09:57,530 --> 00:09:57,979
it.

285
00:09:58,530 --> 00:10:01,880
It is one of the most important purchases that you will make

286
00:10:02,010 --> 00:10:04,039
if you are fully committed to this model,

287
00:10:04,409 --> 00:10:07,440
you need to read this book cover to cover,

288
00:10:07,690 --> 00:10:12,679
and you need to really truly understand everything that he shares in there.

289
00:10:12,969 --> 00:10:13,400
That's

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00:10:13,690 --> 00:10:15,729
one of the most important things that you could

291
00:10:15,729 --> 00:10:17,650
do with your time when you're not seeing clients.

292
00:10:18,830 --> 00:10:21,169
So one of the other really important elements of

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00:10:21,169 --> 00:10:24,210
his work is that he trained thousands of therapists,

294
00:10:24,450 --> 00:10:27,409
specifically through CCPT supervision models.

295
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,280
And there was really finally for the first time,

296
00:10:31,369 --> 00:10:34,000
a very clear path for therapists to

297
00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:35,000
learn the model.

298
00:10:35,859 --> 00:10:36,409
So,

299
00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:37,780
I wanna share a couple of thoughts.

300
00:10:37,789 --> 00:10:39,849
I've actually never said these to

301
00:10:40,049 --> 00:10:41,530
the podcast audience before.

302
00:10:42,460 --> 00:10:44,450
As part of his training and supervision,

303
00:10:44,619 --> 00:10:46,739
he introduced concepts like

304
00:10:47,169 --> 00:10:49,260
the therapist is an instrument.

305
00:10:50,349 --> 00:10:50,799
And I,

306
00:10:50,859 --> 00:10:53,840
I just love the implication of that phrase

307
00:10:54,239 --> 00:10:56,109
that we are an instrument.

308
00:10:56,909 --> 00:10:58,849
And then another concept that he introduced

309
00:10:58,849 --> 00:11:01,619
is that the relationship is the therapy.

310
00:11:02,450 --> 00:11:04,099
So therapy is not the therapy,

311
00:11:04,190 --> 00:11:05,979
the relationship is the therapy.

312
00:11:06,549 --> 00:11:07,989
Activities are not the therapy,

313
00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:09,349
directives are not the therapy,

314
00:11:09,359 --> 00:11:10,940
agenda is not the therapy,

315
00:11:11,229 --> 00:11:12,789
the relationship is the therapy.

316
00:11:13,719 --> 00:11:16,320
And the concept of being with

317
00:11:16,969 --> 00:11:18,719
rather than doing to.

318
00:11:19,210 --> 00:11:21,400
We talk about the be with attitudes all the time,

319
00:11:21,609 --> 00:11:21,969
by the way,

320
00:11:22,090 --> 00:11:22,609
pop quiz,

321
00:11:22,690 --> 00:11:23,210
what are they?

322
00:11:25,109 --> 00:11:25,750
Thank you.

323
00:11:26,270 --> 00:11:26,619
I'm here.

324
00:11:26,669 --> 00:11:27,109
I hear you.

325
00:11:27,150 --> 00:11:27,669
I understand,

326
00:11:27,710 --> 00:11:29,190
I care and I delight in you.

327
00:11:30,219 --> 00:11:30,909
However,

328
00:11:30,979 --> 00:11:35,859
I don't often talk about the contrast of the being with rather than the doing to.

329
00:11:36,989 --> 00:11:37,979
We're never doing

330
00:11:38,349 --> 00:11:39,419
anything to kids.

331
00:11:39,789 --> 00:11:41,099
We're just being with them.

332
00:11:41,669 --> 00:11:43,619
There's such special

333
00:11:44,549 --> 00:11:45,429
consideration there.

334
00:11:46,429 --> 00:11:50,049
And at a time when directive models were really taking off.

335
00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:50,340
I mean,

336
00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:50,580
the,

337
00:11:50,609 --> 00:11:50,640
the,

338
00:11:50,659 --> 00:11:52,369
the popular approach

339
00:11:52,780 --> 00:11:54,989
was directive models with children.

340
00:11:55,299 --> 00:11:56,760
Landreth never wavered,

341
00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:58,270
he always stood firm.

342
00:11:58,989 --> 00:12:01,330
And he wrote and spoke often

343
00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:03,530
about why CCPT is different.

344
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:05,190
And we know,

345
00:12:05,349 --> 00:12:07,469
we know how special CCPT is.

346
00:12:07,510 --> 00:12:08,780
We know how different it is,

347
00:12:09,229 --> 00:12:11,900
but he spoke about it a lot and he wrote about it a lot,

348
00:12:12,150 --> 00:12:14,640
and he evangelized and he advocated why?

349
00:12:15,229 --> 00:12:16,989
Because he believed wholeheartedly.

350
00:12:17,630 --> 00:12:18,289
Still does.

351
00:12:18,369 --> 00:12:18,520
I,

352
00:12:18,580 --> 00:12:20,489
I'm sure I could ask him right now,

353
00:12:20,539 --> 00:12:21,989
and he would say 100%

354
00:12:22,739 --> 00:12:25,570
watering CCPT down

355
00:12:25,859 --> 00:12:26,979
makes it ineffective.

356
00:12:28,010 --> 00:12:29,719
I talk about the dilution

357
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:30,830
of

358
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,669
CCPT all the time,

359
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,950
and that's the notion that came directly from Garry Landreth.

360
00:12:36,260 --> 00:12:37,549
If we water it down,

361
00:12:37,719 --> 00:12:39,150
it becomes ineffective.

362
00:12:40,580 --> 00:12:43,750
And he advocated for above all purity of the model.

363
00:12:44,859 --> 00:12:46,619
Depth over tools.

364
00:12:47,419 --> 00:12:48,450
That's a really big one.

365
00:12:49,270 --> 00:12:51,330
And relationship over results.

366
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,280
Because we know that the tools

367
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,469
don't matter in the grand scheme of things,

368
00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:59,130
and we know that the results will naturally emerge

369
00:12:59,479 --> 00:13:02,309
when the environment and the relationship or the way that they should be.

370
00:13:03,530 --> 00:13:04,760
So thanks to Landreth,

371
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,400
CCPT has a very clear identity that has

372
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,280
been established in the world of play therapy.

373
00:13:10,239 --> 00:13:14,239
There is a deep community of fully committed practitioners,

374
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,109
you being a part of that community as a result

375
00:13:17,109 --> 00:13:19,630
of you being a part of this podcast audience.

376
00:13:20,429 --> 00:13:23,130
And the model has endured despite cultural

377
00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:25,650
and clinical pressures to make it more directive

378
00:13:25,929 --> 00:13:25,940
that

379
00:13:26,099 --> 00:13:29,210
that is a very real felt pressure

380
00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:30,890
for all of us all the time

381
00:13:31,380 --> 00:13:34,090
it's one of the most consistent conversations that I have

382
00:13:34,419 --> 00:13:36,330
is how much pressure

383
00:13:36,780 --> 00:13:38,289
that we feel to

384
00:13:38,450 --> 00:13:41,140
be more directive from everywhere and everyone.

385
00:13:42,369 --> 00:13:42,929
But

386
00:13:43,219 --> 00:13:46,500
Landreth students and readers and everyone

387
00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:49,049
that knows anything about Landreth's work.

388
00:13:49,919 --> 00:13:50,150
You know,

389
00:13:50,260 --> 00:13:50,619
there's,

390
00:13:50,729 --> 00:13:52,460
there's a legacy of

391
00:13:52,989 --> 00:13:57,179
training and programs and private practice and supervision and all these things

392
00:13:57,390 --> 00:13:58,900
that have come out of his work.

393
00:14:00,059 --> 00:14:01,979
So I think above all,

394
00:14:01,989 --> 00:14:02,059
we,

395
00:14:02,309 --> 00:14:03,780
we owe it

396
00:14:04,109 --> 00:14:05,219
to Landreth

397
00:14:05,630 --> 00:14:07,539
to preserve the integrity of the model

398
00:14:08,229 --> 00:14:10,099
because without him we wouldn't have

399
00:14:10,390 --> 00:14:10,869
the

400
00:14:11,150 --> 00:14:11,659
name,

401
00:14:11,909 --> 00:14:13,780
we wouldn't have the clear identity,

402
00:14:13,950 --> 00:14:16,020
we wouldn't have the clear training process.

403
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,010
And he has so deeply been committed to preservation of the model.

404
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:22,770
And

405
00:14:23,039 --> 00:14:24,109
it wasn't just

406
00:14:24,239 --> 00:14:26,080
naming the model to brand it.

407
00:14:27,049 --> 00:14:28,010
Which obviously,

408
00:14:28,049 --> 00:14:28,250
you know,

409
00:14:28,330 --> 00:14:29,000
you need

410
00:14:29,250 --> 00:14:30,450
brand recognition for things,

411
00:14:30,530 --> 00:14:30,820
right?

412
00:14:30,969 --> 00:14:31,030
You,

413
00:14:31,130 --> 00:14:32,099
you see the little

414
00:14:32,369 --> 00:14:35,359
curved line with the arrow right facing

415
00:14:35,359 --> 00:14:37,549
and you automatically know that's Amazon Prime,

416
00:14:37,650 --> 00:14:37,960
right?

417
00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:38,530
You just,

418
00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:41,520
you start to recognize things just because of branding,

419
00:14:42,130 --> 00:14:44,460
but he did not establish CCPT

420
00:14:44,849 --> 00:14:46,309
to brand the model.

421
00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:48,169
It was a line in the sand.

422
00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:50,929
He drew a line in the sand.

423
00:14:51,669 --> 00:14:52,619
And said

424
00:14:53,109 --> 00:14:55,609
this is how I'm going to be with children.

425
00:14:56,179 --> 00:15:00,140
This is what I know to be the most effective approach for children.

426
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,869
This is what I wholeheartedly will trust as a process

427
00:15:05,580 --> 00:15:07,460
child-centered play therapy.

428
00:15:08,729 --> 00:15:13,229
It's preservation and it's being very clear and distinct on what we're all about.

429
00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:16,479
So as CCPTs today,

430
00:15:16,690 --> 00:15:18,849
I think it's important to keep asking.

431
00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:22,289
Am I really living the model,

432
00:15:23,020 --> 00:15:24,619
or do I modify it?

433
00:15:25,179 --> 00:15:26,289
Sometimes for comfort,

434
00:15:26,739 --> 00:15:27,770
sometimes for pressure,

435
00:15:28,419 --> 00:15:29,729
sometimes for ease?

436
00:15:30,510 --> 00:15:32,789
Am I truly living the model,

437
00:15:33,059 --> 00:15:36,890
or am I modifying it because it seems easier or more comfortable?

438
00:15:37,969 --> 00:15:40,190
And am I practicing CCPT?

439
00:15:41,390 --> 00:15:43,020
From a place of trust

440
00:15:43,309 --> 00:15:44,150
of the model.

441
00:15:45,099 --> 00:15:46,969
Or from control.

442
00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:49,830
Because let me tell you right now,

443
00:15:50,130 --> 00:15:52,109
if you want control,

444
00:15:52,570 --> 00:15:54,909
CCPT is not going to be easy for you.

445
00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,590
CCPT requires a letting go of all control.

446
00:16:00,979 --> 00:16:03,609
And just embracing it for what it is,

447
00:16:03,820 --> 00:16:07,770
and trusting the process and trusting the child and building the relationship

448
00:16:08,099 --> 00:16:10,809
and knowing that self enhancing behaviors will emerge.

449
00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:12,849
But there's no control.

450
00:16:14,609 --> 00:16:15,140
So,

451
00:16:15,429 --> 00:16:18,539
here's the the way that I kind of would like to sum up Landreth's work.

452
00:16:20,039 --> 00:16:21,530
If you think about

453
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:22,640
cake making.

454
00:16:23,309 --> 00:16:27,369
I actually just baked a cake for our cake auction at church.

455
00:16:27,530 --> 00:16:27,900
Every year,

456
00:16:27,940 --> 00:16:30,020
there's an annual cake auction and it benefits

457
00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:32,419
all of the family ministries in the church.

458
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:33,539
So kids ministries,

459
00:16:33,580 --> 00:16:34,380
youth ministries,

460
00:16:34,479 --> 00:16:34,979
all that.

461
00:16:35,739 --> 00:16:36,799
And

462
00:16:37,140 --> 00:16:37,320
the,

463
00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:38,820
the cakes sell for a lot of money,

464
00:16:38,849 --> 00:16:39,219
y'all.

465
00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:39,890
My,

466
00:16:39,989 --> 00:16:41,969
my cakes go for high dollars.

467
00:16:42,179 --> 00:16:43,890
So I made a snickerdoodle cake this year,

468
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:46,059
and I don't fancy myself a baker,

469
00:16:46,169 --> 00:16:46,369
in,

470
00:16:46,419 --> 00:16:46,869
in truth,

471
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:47,330
I,

472
00:16:47,419 --> 00:16:48,489
I'm not a baker,

473
00:16:48,820 --> 00:16:49,210
but

474
00:16:49,419 --> 00:16:50,010
I can,

475
00:16:50,099 --> 00:16:52,299
I can hold my own with baking cakes.

476
00:16:53,150 --> 00:16:54,729
So it's interesting,

477
00:16:54,950 --> 00:16:59,150
the way that I think about this is Landreth did not come up with the ingredients.

478
00:17:00,460 --> 00:17:02,530
But he baked the cake and gave it a name.

479
00:17:03,599 --> 00:17:05,930
So he took existing ingredients,

480
00:17:06,180 --> 00:17:07,810
and he did something with it,

481
00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:09,329
and he identified

482
00:17:09,459 --> 00:17:10,170
what it is.

483
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:13,040
And that provided clarity to us,

484
00:17:13,569 --> 00:17:16,839
and the clarity is what allows CCPT to

485
00:17:17,050 --> 00:17:18,040
be what it is today.

486
00:17:19,338 --> 00:17:19,909
So,

487
00:17:20,159 --> 00:17:21,708
Landreth is

488
00:17:22,159 --> 00:17:24,667
really at the forefront of everything

489
00:17:25,038 --> 00:17:27,917
as what we understand to be modern CCPT today.

490
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,069
So next time,

491
00:17:30,199 --> 00:17:34,949
we're going to explore how CCPT is still intentional and structured.

492
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:36,109
In other words,

493
00:17:36,199 --> 00:17:38,280
we can very clearly say it's non-directive.

494
00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:43,589
But we also believe and know that it is very intentional and very structured

495
00:17:43,790 --> 00:17:46,380
and why that structure matters more now

496
00:17:46,670 --> 00:17:47,300
than ever.

497
00:17:48,239 --> 00:17:49,989
So stay tuned for that one.

498
00:17:50,770 --> 00:17:50,969
All right,

499
00:17:51,010 --> 00:17:51,520
y'all,

500
00:17:51,729 --> 00:17:52,680
thanks for hanging out with me.

501
00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:53,689
You know how much I love you.

502
00:17:53,729 --> 00:17:54,439
If you want to reach out,

503
00:17:54,569 --> 00:17:56,640
please do brenna@thekidcounselor.com,

504
00:17:56,650 --> 00:17:57,680
can't wait to talk with you again.

505
00:17:57,969 --> 00:17:58,170
Bye.

506
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:02,060
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

507
00:18:02,219 --> 00:18:03,140
Brenna Hicks.

508
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:05,260
For more episodes and resources,

509
00:18:05,380 --> 00:18:10,140
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.