The Deena Kastor Interview. Ep 36

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode thirty six. We have an exciting episode today. I will be interviewing elite runner Dina Caster. She is the winner of the Chicago Marathon, the London Marathon. She was a bronze medalist in Athens Olympics in two thousand and four, and she is also a working mom. So she's going to talk about all of that with us. She has a new book out today the day this book this podcast is long April ten. Her book is called Let Your Mind Run, and it's partly a memoir about her athletic career, which is ongoing, but about the first part of it, and also a self help book telling readers how they can sort of harness their mental energy really develop their mental game to get better at whatever they want to do. So fascinating read. Highly recommend you pick it up. But I'll be talking to Dina later in this episode. But first, Sarah, Yeah, this was the first one that I wasn't able to be present for because you know, somehow Dina's just not able to arrange her schedule to my work whims So absolutely, uh no, I was very I completely understand that, but it was very sad to miss this one. But it was fascinating to hear them. I've listened to the cut of them, and I think it's a treat and it's such a exciting thing for us to have someone's so cool who's such amazing things on this podcast, although that is true of all of our podcasts. Yeah. Well, I mean one of the reasons we're both so interested in Dana is because fan girls girls. We've both been running for years, and she's been very involved in the distance running community, which is a really cool thing to be you know, have have people at the top of the sport be involved in it for the rest of us. But when did you take up running. I ran very casually in high school in college, and when I say casually, like I'm talking about like twenty minutes on the treadmill kind of things. I think by college I was going outside for little three mile runs in the New England hills, so that was kind of nice. But I didn't start running longer distances until after I met my husband and sort of saw that he was doing it and felt like maybe that's something anyone could do, and he kind of convinced me that it was. And it didn't take too long before I sort of realized that it was a lot of fun and kind of addictive in that reaching and setting a goal kind of way. So I ran my first marathon in two thousand and four, No, I lied two thousand and five, and then I ran another one in two thousand and six and another one in two thousand and nine. I've done four total. And it's hilarious that we're even talking about our running in the same podcast. The Dina castor is going to be talking because I'm not good. I mean, my PR is three hours and forty eight minutes and I couldn't even run close to that. Now, that was like pre kids, when I had lots and lots of time to train, and whenever I dial it up to anywhere near to get any faster, I get injured. So I'm like another species from Dina Castor. But I still really really enjoy the sort of challenge that comes with running, and I find it very calming for me mentally, so I do look forward to bringing it back into my life. I'm actually on my first what I would call true running hiatus. I mean, I ran through every pregnancy. I think I ran a half marathon like six months after having Annabelle. Well, for some odd reason, I'm just in no hurry this time. I think it's I'm a little bit more tired, I'm a little bit older, I'm a little bit more crazy about the whole milk and pumping things. So I'm just sort of and I guess I have a much greater perspective that this is such a short phase and I know I'll be back to it, So I'm just kind of chilling right now. Yeah, but it's not that people can't run postpartum. Just oh no, I totally yeah, I did. Oh A doctor is not running after well, I ran after the other two pregnancies, so that's what I was saying. I did it. I was doing pretty long distances pretty quickly after Annabelle. I think there's no right answer. It's definitely not one size, but it fits all, or even the same person might find that different strategies work in different times of their lives. And you ran through all your pregnancies too, didn't you, or at least through most of them. Tell us you're running history. So yeah, I started running a lot later than you did. I had tried here and there, but it had never really taken until shortly after I got married in two thousand and four, the same thing as you, you you know, I see my husband doing it, and I'm like, well, that's something we could do together. And then I was particularly inspired. I happened to turn on the TV and see the New York City Marathon in November of two thousand and four and saw Paula Radcliffe when that which if any of our listeners are distance running junkies, remember that was the one where she had to duke it out at the end, like she won by like two oh yeah, after after twenty six miles, like it's usually not that tight at the end of a marathon like that. But they were battling, and so I was I was so taken by this. I like went out for a run afterwards and then stuck with it and my new husband at the time and I ran together a lot, and then we ran our first half marathon together on our first anniversary, so that was aw. That's so kidding. Yeah, he's still he does some we had kids, and then we like never ran together again. Basically, I get it because we're always trading off, right, Like, you know, one person takes the kids so the other king go for a run or then you know, it's it's I've definitely stuck with it a lot more than he has. I think it's a similar situation with you and Josh from what I've just read of your blog posts and stuff, that you got into running because of him, but then you do it more seriously. Well these days, actually, he tends to be more of a like he has a lot of peaks and valleys in his training, so he's either really really serious or he's like not doing it at all, and he's sort of back in a little bit of a running renaissance, maybe because I'm not doing it, so who knows. But he's a fast right, he's a training and then yeah, that's the thing. I can't really run with him because I'm too slow. He's actually like he was, you know, a cross country runner and track runner in high school and he ran on Duke's team for a year. Like he's actually has talent and I just have some persistence. But that's it. I would say that Sarah, Sarah is probably faster than I am. We the one time, well, the first time we met in person, we went for a run together and you were pregnant, so I was pregnant. Yes, so that was I'll put that up. Maybe that's the reason I was slow, but we were not slow. It was awesome. I can't wait to do it again. Yeah, I'd love to you sometime. Yeah. No, I've now been on my running streak for about four hundred and fifty days. Knock on wood. That amazing. You know. I was actually feeling a little not into it the other morning. So we'll see. I think you should just quit randomly, randomly, I know, not for any reason exactly, just like on a Tuesday, be like it's over. That's probably what will happen. But you know, we'll see. But you know, it's it's a fun sport like I feel, it's also like a I mean, a good sport for people have a lot going on in their lives too, because you can just do a little bit and you can move it around everything else, you know, whereas getting to that certain spin class at your gym at six pm is always going to be a battle. But yeah, it's definitely flexible. You can do a little bit or a lot. You can do it really gently and kind of in a relaxing way, or you know, through pregnancy, I did a lot of like run walking, so or you can do intervals and make it really challenging. Like it has a lot of I agree facets to it. And the fact that we can discuss it and enjoy it, and then an Olympic athlete can kind of discuss some of the same things. That kind of goes to show how incredibly flexible of a sport it is that we can all get something out of it. Sounds good. Well, we're about to have Dina Castor on the program, so we'll be back with that. Well, Dina, thank you so much for coming on the program. I appreciate it, and I also want to tell you that I really enjoyed this book, I love to let your mind run, both as a slow distance runner myself, but also as a writer who's always thinking about how to you know, push my craft forward, how can I get you know, deeper thinking about it? So I really appreciated that. Then that means so much because to me this book, in writing it, I just wanted it to be more of a service book, an instructional style memoir, just because I was raised in a family that was supportive and privileged, and I just feel that I didn't come from a war torn country or have any drama in my life except that I really tried to push to get the best out of myself, which is very universal. Yeah, and it's an amazing story of that and what you can accomplish when you put your mind to it. But you know, for all your success and running, I was interested to see that running was not the first sport you tried. You had a slightly less illustrious career in softball and figure skating, right gosh, and soccer, I mean, you name it. My parents thought that sports were the answer to having great role models and making sure that you could choose to hang out with the right crowd. When me and my sister were going through school, so they had us try it at multiple sports, but they were all boring or required coordination which I didn't have. And so it wasn't until I fell into running that I really found my stride. You go people that you know. Just because your kid is picking daisies in the outfield while playing softball doesn't mean she won't someday win the London Marathon. But you had a lot of You had a lot of success as a young runner, but then you almost abandoned it after college, like by your senior year, you're just not as into a well, well, I guess I tried to bring it out in the book without being too bahambug about it. But I had been told from a very young age that I was talented, and I think that subconsciously, when you're told that time and time again when you're when you're out there, you subconsciously lose the desire or even knowledge of what drive and practice and and and the journey is actually all about. And so I didn't know, even though I had been running for so many years, I didn't really understand running at all or success at all until I fell into the arms of coach b Hill. And he talked about work ethic and living in athletes lifestyle and really started working on my mental game. And that's when it clicked to me what getting reaching our potential was really all about. And so I let go of that idea of what talent was in my mind, let go of that idea that it was this fixed trait, and started started really working at it. And that's when success started to become a lot easier. Yeah, because you write in the book that you actually didn't see the connection between what happened in practice had what happened to me, which is embarrassing because I also had really great coaches. But it's not intuitive necessarily that like, oh, if here's something I specifically want to get better at, here's how I need to work it. And it takes a good coach, right. And I saw no connection between the rest of the remainder of my day, Like I could push hard for the couple of hours that I was at practice, but I saw no connection on how I lived my day. My mindset, didn't see how that coordinated or inhibited what I was trying to what I was trying to accomplish. So I had high goals, I just had not a clue in the world that that my mindset and lifestyle could have such a critical role in being able to pursue that. Yeah, now, when you went and started training with coach v Hill, you know a lot of our listeners are really into the idea of finding a good mentor finding someone who's going to help bring them to the next level. What was it about him that made him such a good coach for you? What did you do? I think that he put the onus on me. He made me accountable for what for what I was doing. Whether I was succeeding or failing on any given day, it was it was me. It wasn't the training program that was wrong. It was because I wasn't resting well enough, or maybe I wasn't my greatest cheerleader on that day. I might have been a little self destructive in my thoughts. And he always put it back on me. And I loved that. I loved that that he both gave me the power to reach my goals but also the blame if if I fell short and and it was just about inching along that you don't you know, success is it made overnight, which is such a cliched term, but It's just about chiseling away at your at your at your strengths and relying on them, but also being able to identify and pay attention to places that you can really perform at a better level. And so I think he really taught me the art of paying attention, yeah, both to your body and how the practice is going and how you're thinking, which is a big aspect of it that this book talks about. So earlier in your career, you were running you know, competitive five, case, ten case. What was it that finally drew you to the marathon? Oh? I had the sort of the DEMI run near my parents' house in southern California. They live next to the Santa Monica Mountains trailheads in multiple directions, and this one day, I just finally got to this trail that I always wanted to run. It was nine miles to the beach and back in a place called Sycamore Canyon, And anybody that lives in southern California, I think will attest to that being one of their favorite places to run and explore. And so I finally got to that trailhead, and I was so nervous and intimidated with the distance because I had never run eighteen miles before. The longest I had run was fifteen. That I took it real easy in the beginning of the run, taking in the scenery, which I love to do both as inspiration and as a kind of a diversion of what might, what might, what pain might come in the future miles. But I really was just taking it all in, taking in the scene. And I arrived at the beach thinking Okay, I think I can do this, and started started heading back and I just got this momentum and this energy that wow, I was doing it. When we there's I think moments in a lot of our lives where we're surprised by our strength, or surprised by our endurance, or surprised by our so our capability. It's of something. And this was one of those moments that I had never given myself enough credit for and I felt so so I guess uh empowered and adrenaline ridden in those final miles that I picked up my cell phone the second I got back to my car and called Coach Bi Hill and said, I think I can run a marathon someday. And I could. I could. I could almost see his grin through his tone, and he said, baby, I've been waiting to hear those words come out of your mouth for a long time. And and so we started training for the New York City Marathon later that year. It was two thousand and one. Yeah, so he knew you possibly better than yourself at that point, but he also knew he needed to wait for you always to that act. That's the desire always had to come from me. When I ask my advice about should I, you know, should should we prepare for the London Marathon or the Boston Marathon, he would always he would always answer with it really needs to come with what your desires are. Do do you want to run fast? Do you want to run on a historical rate at a historical race? And so he would he would help flush out the pros the pros with each race that I was trying to trying to decide between, But he never made the decision for me. It always had to come because inevitably we have to be the ones to go out and put in that challenging work and get to that starting line motivated by something deeply internal. Yeah. Well, one of the fun parts of reading this book and for any of our listeners who have done any distance races, you'll recognize that elite runners have some of the same anxieties about them that the rest of us do as well. I was fascinating to see that you guys are worried about the timing of the pre race bathroom stop too absolutely, I mean from like did I eat? Did I E matter? I mean too much, cost of the night before, our our carbohydrate stores big enough? Am I going to sleep enough? And maybe the night before it doesn't matter? But how about this? Was I sleeping enough this week? And those are all factors you try to control leading up to the race. But I think a really big gift to yourself is letting yourself off the hook when when things aren't going perfectly, that you just need to focus on how you're going to how you're going to get to your goal, even if you're not feeling one hundred percent, even if you're feeling eighty percent, even if the odds are stacked up against you, that you're prepared enough to reach your goal exactly. But another thing to say that that also came across from the book. It sounds like the last miles of the marathon. I really think that there's no other sports like the Parzonla, like running in general, that the professional athletes, the people that make their living doing it, are going through exactly the same thing as the person that's running it for their first time, because we every marathon is different. You could run. You can run twenty five, thirty fifty, one hundred marathons and never truly feel like you've nailed the distance. There's always some little tweat you can do to prepare better, run a longer long run, get an extra week of training in utilize carbohydrates a little bit more. Maybe if I ate more protein, Maybe if I slept, vabor better, Maybe if I had help with the kids, whatever, whatever it is. We can always like find things to inch up in our in our performances. But there is no other sport in the world that we have such a commonness between the masses. Someone can get on the free the free throw line that's not easy to say, the free throw line of a basketball court and shoot free throws, but they'll never know what it's like to be Kobe Bryant in the in the middle of the game. But in running and marathon running, it truly is everybody having similar experiences, which is beautiful and relatable, which is why we as professional athletes immerse ourselves in the in the general community, because we are a big community of support and we definitely rely on that exactly. But I guess one of the other things that comes across in the book is is part of you know, the developing the mental toughness to run these distances, is that you knew it was going to hurt, and you do it anyway that you trained your mind to become. I guess good sufferings the phrase I would use as part of your mental chaling for the America great rewards once you've accomplished them. So I think that that some of our some of our biggest struggles are our greatest pride. Uh So, so that is that is definitely true. But I also look at it, you know, in the scope of life, like you don't want to add challenge and struggle to your life and just to see how you can handle it. Running is a very safe place to be able to to get to that that point of discomfort and and think ourselves through those moments, whether it's twisting our thoughts or having a distraction or finding a purpose or reciting our mantras that we go through all those tools to get through it. And the more we can condition ourselves to do that through running, the more readily available that is in life, when you stub your toe walking to the bathroom in the middle of the night, or or you're late picking your kid up from school and you're stressed out in traffic, like you could better handle all of those life events. The death of of someone in your family become more digestible because you've because you've conditioned yourself repeatedly, persistently to find that more optimistic side. Yeah, well, I'd like to switch to talking about family a little bit here. So your husband has worked with you for years, I mean both as what is it like to work with your scuff? Do you guys sometimes be able to work with Andrew on a on a daily basis. A friend of ours from Canada once said, are you guys twenty four to seven? And I thought, what does that mean? Uh? And I had to I had to inquire that it means that we're around each other twenty four to seven, like with the interview with you, that he ran downstairs to get me headphones or you know, I write before that made a miss sandwich for a late lunch. So I love the collaboration and the fact that our goals coincide, that that we love this sport so deeply, but also love what it gives to people, so we want to see other people succeed in it just as well. So I think that we that we've just collaborated for so long that we're on the same page. And sure we have different ideas of how to get things done sometimes, but that's what a conversation is for. And then other parts of your family. I saw you said in another interview that one of the reasons you're running paper just term seven in the middle of February, So it was like being a mom love theme parties. But she's she's been such a joy and to be able to take her cross country skiing in the afternoons, or wedding or ice skating, or doing a craft or cooking dinner together, or yesterday we made cupcakes and decorated them. That that that is such a joy to me to be able to share passions and even have her share her passions with me, because I never cross country skid or ice skated. After after my failure as a as a youth, I could barely stand up on the skates, so it's not like riding a bike. But this this winter we were ice skating on the lakes, which was so beautiful, and it took her to share that with me. So it's this mutual sharing of of our passions that I that I really love. Oh boy, it's it's it's never typical. I feel like it's all I always get thrown for something does look like for you. Yeah, But in the morning, it's it's getting Piper ready for school, making us all breakfast, the whole family breakfast, feeding the dogs, taking them for a walk, getting her lunch ready, getting her to school. Right after school, we meet up with the team and have practice until about new or one o'clock, and then it's like anybody else, running errands, grabbing groceries, going to the post office, gassing up the cars, getting in emails or interviews, which emails tend to slip through the cracks sometimes, so I'm sorry if anybody's listening that I didn't respond to. But it's planning a team dinner this weekend. So it's just fun. I feel like I feel privileged that I live a life that I've chosen to add aspects of my life that I care so deeply about, whether it's entertaining and cooking with family and friends, or spending intimate time with Piper and Andrew and the dogs, or sharing my life in running, whether it's through travel media or social media. I just feel very privileged to be able to wear so many hats that I enjoy, and I feel like in any given day where my schedule starts to feel a little overwhelming, I'll look at my calendar and just smile, like, Wow, there's nothing I want to give up here because I love it all. So so that's a it's a good reminder that that is so. On this podcast, we talk a lot about the joys and challenges of combining work and motherhood, and all women face these issues, but there are obviously some unique aspects of combining motherhood with professional athletics. And I know a lot of pro athletes have have waited until later. And I think because of something that you were after about you guys are together, I did not juggle. I was this this like self absorbed, one hundred percent focused with blinders on distance runner, having a having a child, and now something's competing for attention, which rightfully should can be for my professional attention, and I just did not know how to balance the two. I didn't do it with grace at all. And it took looking around like, wow, here's this mom of twins at this expo who happens to own her own company and she gets in marathons like four or five a year. How on earth do you do this? And when I was asking people how they did it, it all came down to priorities, and so I set priorities. I wanted health and family to come first and running in career to come second. And I learned very quickly that those lines often blur because sometimes going out to run makes me a better mom, or makes me makes me more organized, or helps feed the family, whatever it is, that those lines often get often get blurred. But the priorities were a big deal. And I also thought that here's a mom or a dad who has children is running, has a career, and they're able to raise a family. Running in my career are the same thing. So shouldn't I have it easier than anybody else. So it was this big awakening, like, listen, I'm not trying to invent something here. This is something women and men have been doing for hundreds of years and I just need to figure it out. And I eventually did. And as long as I was filling my days with joy and moving forward, then I was very happy with the place that I was in. Yes, so to our listeners, Data has still been setting records now with with her her whole family watching. So one thing you said there though, that you like to fill your days with things you enjoy. And my my co host, who couldn't be with us today because she has a real job unlike me, she's she's seeing her patients right now. But you think there is value in pushing kids to stick with something even if it's hard at first. You know that she said a time limit, like try it for a year, then you can get that Or what did your parents do with you as you were figuring out? Like a softball? Isn't it a figure skating? Isn't it singing? How should you approach the America? How are you approaching activities? Sought a little girl perform and she was really into opera, so we got her. We got her a coach, and the coach said, you know, I don't really want to strain her voice at this at this age, we have a beautiful opera singer that happens to live here in Mammoth Lakes, California. And she said, but we're going to learn piano. And Piper loves it. So for Christmas, Santa brought her a piano. So just trying to fuel and fuel their desires because Andrew and I are not musical at all, but she showed interest and now she has to keep up with these lessons until the year is up. So I think, yeah, yeah, and I think I think piano if she's if she's into music, then then maybe we need to be a little more con extend that a little bit. One year. She's not going to know how to play the piano perfectly. But I think it's important that when the kid shows interest and wants and wants and wants you and you deliver that that they need to follow through with their end of the bargain. For sure. Sounds like good advice. Well, Dina, thanks so much for being with us. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Well, that was fantastic. I'm so glad we were able to have you interviewed, Dina. And I'm excited to read more of the book because it's coming out now. So we have a great Q and A today, and it was sent by one of our listeners, and she writes, I am a podcast listener and working mom of two kids are aged two and a half and eight months. I'm recently back for my second maternity leave. One question I'd love you for you to address is the logistics of working from home while you have a nanny. My husband and I both have a fantastic work arrangement in which he works from home full time and I work from home four days each week and in the office one day a week. We currently have the younger boy and a lovely in home daycare and the older in our synagogue preschool. The only wishue we have with this is the opportunity cost of getting both boys ready and then having two pickups and two drop offs each day. I estimate that we spend about fifty minutes each day doing pickups and drop offs alone. In some we are the perfect family to have a nanny. We just struggle to figure out how we'd actually get work done with a nanny playing with the boys on the ground floor of our house while we're upstairs. We both worry it would be hard emotionally to get work done while we can hear someone else having fun with our boys. We do have access to co working spaces the office about a twenty minute metro right away, but that would defeat the glories of being able to work from home. Can you talk about how you've managed to separate yourself from your kids so you can get work done while still physically being in the same space as them. I'm going to mostly let Laura address this, although I will say today is kind of an example of this because my son is off from school and I just booted them out of the house and I didn't feel very bad about it. But that's it is a little bit different because this is not a day to day thing. I don't do the podcast every day and I'll be home this afternoon, so this is more of a question for Laura. But my other two cents are I highly recommend if you can do it financially, you know, keeping if the school is wonderful. It's not an either or thing. We definitely have done combinations of both and even paid for full time time any care while sending kids to school in some fashion or preschool so they can get that interaction and since they really you really like the school. Hopefully a hybrid would be possible. Okay, and I will now turn it over to Laura, who's gonna have a much more insight into this. Yeah, I mean I went through this whole dilemma myself when my oldest son was born, because we lived in a one bedroom Manhattan apartment, so like it wasn't even like they'd be playing on the ground floor of the house. They would be playing like on top of me. And so that is why we did daycare for kid number one. Fortunately, I was able to buy enrolling him when I was approximately four months pregnant have a spot at a good daycare that was I mean literally a five minute walk from our house. So that was just a sort of twenty minute thing out of my day because five minutes there are five minutes back, five minutes to pick them up, five minutes back. I'd usually by the afternoon, combine it with a walk or errands or something like that. You need a break anyway, So it wasn't so bad. But yeah, obviousally there's down not only to that or but to the idea that you know, when the kid gets sick, you can't go to daycare. So it doesn't even matter how convenient it is. They're still there with you at home, whereas the nanny doesn't have that. And so certainly by the second kid, I was like, well, you know, I need more coverage. My kid has gotten sick like five weeks during the winter. I can't not work for five weeks. So I we had moved to a slightly larger apartment. We'd moved to a two bedroom apartment, so that helped with it too. But basically what it was is the same thing that you're telling me. If it's nice weather, they'd go out to the park to playgrounds. If it was we kept our oldest in daycare part time, they would go to playgrounds, they would go to museums when it was colder. We got memberships for absolutely everything, which is the same thing that we've done now because my little guy is still home with us too. Now, obviously we moved out to the burbs, like you could. We have a large enough house that they can play places and be completely separate from me. So it's really just not an issue. But we communicate about this than nanny and I. We say she definitely tries to get them out at least in the morning, to go places the little gym classes or music classes, museums, parks, play dates. Afternoon, they might have some quiet time, but you know, if I have a call that absolutely cannot be interrupted, then they will either play in the basement or stay out. And that's pretty much been fine. I would say. The thing is you. There is the emotional aspect of it, in that you have to train yourself so it's not even so much asking your caregiver to keep people out of your hair, like make sure that part of her job is not just keeping the children safe at home, it's also keeping the kids out of your hair at home. And so you need to interview for that and hire people for that who understand that. Because some people have more of a sort of free range approach on the home that they want the kids to be able to wander wherever, like you know, then you need to say that's actually not going to work. But you have to stay out of it too. And I think what has sort of helped us with this is that I have made clear to the kids. I have made clearer to our nannies that they are one hundred percent in charge. When I'm working, I'm not coming out, I'm not coming out unless like she comes to get me. If a kid somehow escapes and like bangs on my office door because they disagree with some decision, it doesn't matter, like I don't overrule her. I think that's probably I bet your nanny loves that, Like I think most nannies would appreciate having you know, sovereign sovereign well, because it is like I can't be you know, I need to have it because I can't be interrupted all the time. Like if they know that, oh, every decision is negotiable, like then they'll be in all the time. And there is this phenomenon when there's sort of two people in charge. It invites in my experience, like if the nanny and I are there, or even my husband and I, like you act, they actually have harder time corralling the kids than if it's like autocratics. So it probably serves multiple purposes. You can focus, and it probably allows your nanny to have a better working relationship with your kids and keeping yea better. Although that said, I do do the bulk of my work between when the big kids get on the bus and when they get off the bus in the afternoon, and that's you know, I can do some stuff after they get home, but I don't usually do phone calls or you know, webinars or anything where it would be awkward if a child appeared in my office because they're not as train that because they're in school all day, right, So, and then in the summer we have to do different things. But I think it can work. I think it's really just about you know, being very clear with the expectations with your caregiver and taking yourself out of it and recognizing when you're working, you're working, and that's what you need to be focusing on. So shall we do Love of the Week? Yeah? I have a good one for this one because I just finished a book that I love and I just want to share it with the world. So it is by Kim Marie Martin, and it's her debut novel. It's called The Queen of Heart and it's it's actually super juicy, and it's set partly in the present day to doctors and then partly in their med school and residency days, and it kind of switches back, actually mostly med school, it switches back and forth. As I was reading it, I was just thinking, oh my god, this person like it was so accurate like I was. It was like, Oh wow, how did they get in the minds of someone you know in medical training? And I didn't realize until the end of it that like, it's because she's in the er doctor and she actually did it, so that totally made sense. Once I saw that, I was like, Ah, but if anyone wants to kind of read and know what it really felt like back in the trenches, especially during that time period because it was just a few years apart from when I did med school, it was juicy, it was it was engaging, it was it was awesome. So I definitely recommend it cool to check it out. My love of the week is we're recording this in early April. I did it's local speaking gigs, so big chunk of my business is going to various companies or conferences and giving speeches on time management. And I managed to have two in the Greater Philadelphia area yesterday, which is awesome because I didn't have to get on a plane and I'm a little Two weeks ago, I had quite a run of it with bad plane episodes with partly it's not the planes falls. We have horrible weather in the Philadelphia area and it's continued into March, versus stopping and training to April, even into April. In fact, I can't believe. I looked at the weather and the potentially snow this weekend or early next week. I've got another flight coming up. Like not this again, so local speaking, gigs awesome, hire her. Fill out the area, people. I hope you're listening, Philadelphia area. Please keep me off the plane. No, and I'm not to say I love I love meeting people in all kinds of places. I love being other places, like I love going to California, like going to Texas. I'm going next week. I'm going to Toronto. I love meeting people in new places, seeing new places. The plane flight is the sort of necessary evil to get there, so I keep hoping somebody will invent a teleportation machine, but so far not yet. So all right, Well this has been best in both worlds. Episode thirty six, we had Dina Castro on the program, who's the author of a new book called Let Your Mind Runes, So please check that out. We'll be back next week with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together. A