From 'Too Girly for Finance' to Multimillionaire | Vivian Tu, Your Rich BFF CEO

 To the man who told me I was too girly to ever succeed in finance, you. I love the word . I am so fueled by spite. He probably can't walk by a bookstore without seeing my face in the window, that my face has been on billboards in Times Square. I am inescapable. Holy moly. Former JP Morgan trader. Financial expert, teacher, coach, podcaster. Vivian has built an audience of more than 6.5 million followers across TikTok and Instagram. The inspiring Vivian too.
 She was the first rich Asian woman I had ever met. One Monday, she grabbed me after and said, you deserve a seat at the table. Don't sit on a filing cabinet like you are some lackey.
 It showed me that if I wanted something out of my life, out of my career, I was gonna have to take it. No one was going to give it to me. Some parents are quite jealous of their children's mentors. My mom and Jean met for the first time at my wedding. Oh, really? Yeah, my mom went up to her and said, thank you for everything that you've given my daughter that she was willing to basically accept from you that she wouldn't take from me. Oh, how beautiful. What's the lesson when the racist asshole in the room says what they say?
 Not to make this into a full game theory war plan, but... Vivian! Hi, David! How are you? Can I give you a hug? Yes, please! Nice to meet you. Let us begin.
 Oh my gosh! Where did you get that photo? My makeup looks crazy. Come on now. So, Vivian Tu, who is the person who believed in you? My first manager ever and my now mentor, Jean Ma. She was truly the person who changed my life. And I really do mean that. I dedicated my first book to her. And I feel like I grew up in an immigrant Chinese family.
 And there was so much emphasis placed on budgeting, frugality, saving. But we never got to have conversations about asking for more, demanding my worth, growing my wealth. That never happened until I met Jean. Yeah.
 And she was the first rich, and I mean really rich, Asian woman I had ever met. And for the first time, I saw a lived reality where someone like me got to win. Ooh.
 I remember going to work for her. She was my first manager. And she would come into work and fling a new designer bag onto the desk every single day. I was green with envy. She had the limited edition Chanel's, the beautiful, beautiful pieces. She would walk into the office, click-clack on the marble floor with her Gucci stilettos, with the really good buckles. And I wanted to be just like her for all of the wrong reasons, obviously, all of the visual ones.
 She ended up being the person to take me under her wing. There were no other women on my team. There were no other Asian people. There were certainly no other Asian women. And she taught me everything that I knew about finance at the time. And she was my rich BFF. Take me into the room for a story that I like to call sitting at the table. Yeah. So it's a Monday morning on the JP Morgan trading desk. Yeah.
 There's a boardroom table with chairs and filing cabinets on the perimeter. Yeah. Right? So the senior people all over 40 are at the table, and the analysts and junior staff sat on the filing cabinets. Correct. Right? You are 22 years old, and so you're sitting on the filing cabinets where you belong. Until Gene walks in one day and says –
 By the way, you should sit at the table. And it was after – so our Monday morning standing meetings, after every single one, it would be like a big debrief. Everyone would go back to the desk. And one Monday, she grabbed me after and said –
 You deserve a seat at the table. You belong there. Don't sit on a filing cabinet like you are some lackey. And that changed just my perspective of who I got to be, what I felt like I deserved, what I felt like it was okay to want. And every morning after that, I would actually head to the Monday meeting meeting.
 about two minutes early before everybody else got the calendar notification to go. And I would sit at the table and I would make sure that I had a seat every single week. And when there were things that I didn't understand, I actually felt like I could raise my hand
 and get clarity when there were tasks that needed somebody, a junior person to raise their hand for them. I was seen sooner than the people on the perimeter of the room. And it showed me that if I wanted something out of my life, out of my career, I was going to have to take it. No one was going to give it to me.
 You said to my producer in the pre-interview, she said, don't sit on the filing cabinet. Yeah. Like get to the table. Yeah, exactly. She was always one. She never minced words, but she always told me that I couldn't act like a junior employee if I eventually wanted to be seen like a senior one.
 There was a weekend at her apartment where she's cleaning out bags of clothes for the real real. I mean, let me tell you. Take me there. David, this woman had the most insane closet I had ever seen. It was like going into the luxury brand department at a Saks. Like just my eyes. Like it was a feast of beautiful clothing and beautiful pieces.
 And one weekend, she was cleaning out her closet, and I went over and I was sitting on her bed helping her fill out the form that you send in with your big old bag of clothes to some consignment shop, I believe it was the real real. And you have to write down where the piece is from, what size the piece is, and your estimate of the condition of the piece being sent in. And I was doing that for her,
 And over the course of her cleaning out her closet, she gifted me a brand new pair of YSL heels. And I was like, Jean, you should sell these. They'll go for near retail because you've never worn them. Like you look at the bottom, they still, you know, looked fresh. Thousand plus dollars. Thousand plus dollars. And she was like, nah, you take them. Because? She said, she said.
 Every woman deserves to have a good pair of shoes. And it gives you the feeling of confidence when you walk into a room. And that wasn't even the only thing that she gave me over the years –
 There was another time she gave me a beautiful fall Burberry coat. It was this beautiful gray color. And she said, all you got to do is get a fabric shaver and shave off some of the pills and it'll be brand good as new. And I was like, don't you want to keep this? This is a multi-thousand dollar coat. And she said, nah, all good. You take it. And it wasn't even.
 these necessarily, like these gifts and their actual retail price that made such an impact on me. One time we were at a client event after work
 And I wore her coat and I showed up at the event. And all of these Wall Street guys, whether or not they know it or not, they've got an eye for things, whether it's because their wives spend a ton of money on beautiful pieces or whether or not they just have, you know, that cultural cachet. And one of the traders looked at my coat and said, oh, wow, that's a really nice coat. Jean heard it. She didn't say anything.
 She didn't embarrass me. She didn't say, oh, I gave that to Viv. She didn't want credit. She never wanted to put me in a position where I felt like I was less than. She let me enter that room simply as a young woman who worked hard, had a good job, and could afford a coat like that. And so I think what she gave me over the years through all of those little gifts, and frankly, they were large gifts, was confidence. Confidence that I deserve to be a part of that world. Her job title was…
 She was an executive director at the time since she has left J.P. Morgan. And, you know, she's only gone on to do more amazing, big, better things. But a woman of influence at the time you met her. Very much so. And you couldn't have been more junior. No. I was certainly the youngest person on the desk.
 There's another story about Vivian dragging Jean to the meatpacking district in New York City, right? And so y'all go to this place called the Brass Monkey. Okay. Like, let me paint the picture. Yeah, please. This might as well just be a glorified frat house. Like, it is a bar where the floors are sticky and everybody is relatively young. It's not really a place you go once you are in your 30s or frankly –
 have any sort of money. But I remember- Why did you take your boss? I don't know. I was 22 and my brain was not fully developed. She and I were friends outside of work and I didn't have that many other friends. And I was like, hey, you want to come out and get a drink with me? She probably thinks we're going to like some hotel bar. Nope. Dragging her to a
 And you're in line. We are outside. Well, we get to the bar. Right, right. And I see this line and I'm like, okay, let's get in the line. And she looks at me like, are you crazy? She is like, give me your ID. So I give her my ID and she takes $20 per person. So $40 in total, wraps our IDs in $40, goes up to the bouncer and is like, excuse me, sir, can me and my friend enter? Okay.
 hands him our IDs with the $40, bouncer takes the $40 and says, go ahead, go right on in. What was the lesson? The lesson was that my time had value. She asked me, she was like, hey, how many free hours do you have out of your week when you're working as much as you're working? And I'm like, well, not that many. And she's like, how many hours do you plan on being out tonight? And I'm like, I don't know, a handful, maybe four or five hours.
 She goes, you want to spend 45 minutes in this line? Or would you rather spend $20? You were quoted as saying every experience I ever had with her was a reminder that the rules I thought you had to play by in life were not the rules that everyone else was playing by. Yeah. I think that.
 Regular people, people who don't grow up with generational money like I did. I very much did not have a trust fund. I very much did not grow up with wealth. I feel like the lesson we are all taught is if you work hard, if you put your nose to the grindstone –
 If you actually make something of yourself, one day you will be, like, noticed. You will be rewarded for it. But, in fact, I realized through Jean that that was not even the case. That life is not a meritocracy. You get what you ask for. You get what you demand. It has never been about who works harder, who's smarter. It's about what are you willing to do?
 To actually ask for. Because I would assume in an industry like Wall Street, everybody works hard. Everybody. So if you're there just to work hard and work the way up, you're not going anywhere. No. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. You spoke of early life. Yeah. Cute little girl. Cute. With her daddy. Grew up outside of Baltimore. Yes. Suffers of Baltimore. Dad was a... Computer programmer. And mom, a chemist. Yes. You're an only child. Only child. If I would have met that little girl then, what would I have seen?
 A little chaos demon. Chaos demon. I was a terror to my parents. Can I be honest? Well, you don't look like one. Okay. Yeah. That's what gets you. Deceiving. The way I look absolutely belied my behavior. I look back and I joke with my now husband. I'm like, our kid is going to be Dennis the Menace as karmic payback for how awful I was to my parents. Because I was just always in trouble. And I don't know if it was...
 Just the fact that I thought I was smarter than everybody or the fact that I was so painfully curious. But I'll tell you a couple stories.
 Well, first of all, you were smarter. If my research is correct, you were valedictorian. I was. You had a startup that you started in high school. Correct. And you went to the University of Chicago. Yes. Okay. Just for the record. Okay. But even as a little kid, before school, so this is like preschool, my parents needed help. Both of them were working parents. So I was put into daycare at the YMCA.
 And I remember one time my mom had given me a Lunchable at daycare. And I don't know how many Lunchables you've eaten in your lifetime. However, before the skimflation hit, every Lunchable had a little like KitKat bar, crunch bar in it. And so I was eating this Lunchable at...
 at lunch. And I remember the teacher being like, oh, but Vivian, because she saw the piece of chocolate in my lunch. And she was like, we're going to save that for after like school, right? Like you're going to wait till you get home to eat that. And I said, yeah, of course. Naturally, I had no intentions of waiting until after to eat my little bar. So what do I do? I
 Naptime comes around and I don't know if I just didn't have like, what is it called when children don't realize that other people perceive things differently? But I thought if I couldn't see everyone else, they couldn't see me. So we all get our little cots for nap time and I put my blanket over my head. Mind you, I am sitting straight up. So it literally looks just like it's clear that I'm sitting straight up underneath this blanket.
 And I quietly unwrap this Kit Kat bar. Because nobody's watching. Nobody knows that I'm obviously doing something sketchy. And out of nowhere, the blanket gets lifted. I try to hide my Kit Kat. My Kit Kat gets confiscated. And they have to call my mom.
 Who says, didn't I? Well, so my mom was actually very understanding. She's wondering, why couldn't my kid just eat the tiny piece of candy that came with her lunch? It's not that big of a deal.
 That said, I had already gotten in trouble a couple times. I may or may not have bit somebody. I was a biter. Okay. It was also because there was a language barrier. I didn't speak English because when I was – I was born in America, but then I went back to China to live with my grandparents as my parents got on their feet. And so I didn't speak English when I first started at daycare. So I didn't know that I had to share the toys, and so I bit a kid. I was already getting in quite a lot of trouble.
 Wow. But that's a good point. Yeah. So, you know, I'm scared, whatever. I think I'm about to get yelled at. We're in the car back home and my mom, I remember this so vividly as a child and I can't remember, I do remember, I can't believe I remember it. She was teary eyed, but she said, Hey Vivian, I just want to let you know, I'm not mad. You're not in trouble.
 But you can't do anything like that again because they have basically said you are on your last strike. And if you can't keep going there, mom and dad, we can't both work and we can't have you with us in America.
 if we can't both be working and contributing financially to the family. Oh, wow. What did she mean? Like they may send you back to China to be with your grandparents. Yeah. And. Wow. I didn't think I was going to get emotional talking about this. Wow. But that is holy moly. And they had to make so many sacrifices to take, to make it work.
 For us to be a family together. My dad was actually working out of New Jersey and commuting back to Maryland on weekends. My parents made an unbelievable number of sacrifices so that I could have a life here. And so when my mom says that to me in an entirely calm voice, she's not yelling. She's nothing. She's just level setting with me as like a person. And she goes, Vivian, we are on our last strike here. You can't do that again. You have to be good. Promise mom you're going to be good. And I am...
 I get it. And so I say, okay, I promise I won't do anything bad. And I was on my best behavior. It ended up being fine. I didn't get kicked out of the YMCA. But I so vividly remember all of the sacrifices my parents had to make. How old were you?
 Younger than kindergarten. Okay. But the fact, Vivian, that at that age, you understood that is what I'm also fascinated by. Yeah. Because had you re-offended, LOL. Yeah. I was a repeat offender. You could have made the argument that you were only five years old. Correct. But you like got it. So, okay. Yeah. How did that experience frame what went on? Did you become a consummate rule follower? No. You didn't.
 I got better at breaking rules. And not getting caught. Not getting caught. But also, I will say, I think it led to a level of people-pleasing.
 So all of a sudden I start to get a grasp of the English language and I am number one people because even though I had a past history of offenses of breaking the rules, I was always the first person to finish the worksheet. I was always the first person to build their little Play-Doh castle. I was always the first person to be done with something because I just knew what was going on. And I knew that because of that,
 I could then start to get benefits that other people weren't getting. Wow. For example, I remember they actually had a – this is so crazy. They had a Korean student.
 like a Korean immigrant student who also did not speak English. And this was probably like a year or two after I'd been going there. And they, obviously this is back in the nineties. Like people don't even know that Chinese and Korean are different at this point. And,
 The teachers were like, oh, well, Vivian's a great student. Maybe we can put her with this new student so you can read to them because this kid was literally crying, sobbing. Their parent had just dropped them off. Probably exact same story as my parents. Needed to work. Kid does not speak English. And so I take this little girl. I am reading. I am talking to her in my native Shanghainese, thinking she can understand me. She's Korean, by the way.
 But because I showed her some picture books, I got her to calm down. Because I was able to get the opportunity to do that, I didn't have to help with classroom cleanup. I hated cleanup. Still hate cleaning today. But I knew that I got opportunities for being the smartest, for being a top student. And that certainly led to elementary school, middle school, high school, even college. It really felt like that experience, but also what my parents were telling me at home, that
 education was the key to success, that if I was the best student, I would get a golden ticket. Mom and dad. Are you their American dream? A thousand percent. Every sacrifice that they made was so that I could have every opportunity here to do all of the things that they could not do. When my parents were being
 you know, discriminated, whether just due to bias or deliberately at work because they had accents, because they don't speak English natively. I remember helping them write their end of year reviews in my perfect...
 AP, perfect English, got a perfect score on the reading SAT. So when I tell you a girl knows how to write, a girl knows how to write. I know how to read. I write better than everybody. And so I'm out there being like, you know, a raise of this would be commensurate. I'm doing that and I'm 18. I'm helping my parents do that. And so I feel like they ran as far as they could with the baton that they had.
 And then when they felt like I was ready, they passed the baton. And it is not just my privilege to strike it big and build an incredible life. It is my duty. That is inheritance repaid. That is what my ancestors would have wanted. So I don't do it for me. I do it for everybody that came before me.
 My last name is Tu. In Chinese, the direct relation of that actual character is butcher. So someone way far up the line might have been a butcher in the same way that in America, if your last name is Smith, somewhere up the line, maybe there was a blacksmith in your family. I do it for...
 The person 10 generations ago chopping up beef and chicken and pork who had no idea that at some point down in their bloodline I would get to succeed like this. That my life would get to look like this. In comparison to how you were raised, you are rich.
 I don't think it needs to be in comparison to how I was raised. I'm rich, period, point blank. But you didn't grow up rich. Certainly not. Is my point, my point, right? Certainly not. Okay. So my follow-up to that is some people who are rich dream of boats and houses and cars. Yeah. And it's okay if you do. Do you also dream about using that to do good for them? For my parents' last milestone anniversary, I sent them on an all-expenses-paid vacation
 And there's – I'll have to send it to you after, but there's photos of my parents in like Newfoundland. There's this massive giant boulder and it's a photo of them obviously in the foreground pretending to push the boulder. And there's photos of them at dinner and they're all dressed up. They got two desserts.
 Seeing them live a way that they could not when I was younger is the greatest joy. It's better than any bag I could buy myself, anything that I could buy myself. Yes. I remember during like the middle school era. Yeah. My parents would not spend money on anything, anything. They actually went three years without taking a vacation because I went to what I called nerd camp every single summer.
 And this was CTY, Center for Talented Youth, where in middle school you would take the SATs or the PSATs, I can't remember. And if you scored high enough, you would be able to take college-level classes on campus at a college. You would sleep in the dorm for two weeks. And the program was not cheap. It was a couple thousand dollars for those two weeks. And...
 my parents, even though they could not afford to go on vacation, would somehow scrounge up the money so that I could go to that and do that enrichment every single summer. And I feel like that was a pivotal moment for me because for the first time, I met other people, other students who were brighter than me, who worked harder than me. I knew people who were
 who had siblings who had gone to Harvard, who had older siblings who were going to Yale, going to Princeton, going to these fancy schools and had the life that I wanted. And for the first time, I could see it happening for me. And I would go into these programs and suddenly I was middle of the pack. I'm no longer the best writer in the room. I'm no longer the smartest math student, but it gave me something more to aspire to instead of just being the smartest kid at my high school or the smartest kid at my middle school.
 When you're a mom, will you want your children to feel what it was like for you to feel when you were a child not having a lot? Or will you raise them to enjoy the wealth that you have? Do you have a thought around that? I would never want them to feel the level of scarcity I felt. That said…
 My children will be born into a life of privilege, an unbelievable amount of privilege. They will never want for anything, frankly, anything that they do want material-wise within reason, they'll probably get. That said, to pretend like it is going to be given to them instead of earned would be insane. I would never give my kid a luxury item that they did not then save and budget for themselves.
 I got the chills. Keep going, please. I would never tell them that they are going to get an inheritance. And frankly, we actually have it currently structured in our estate plan that future children would not get the entirety of my husband and I's wealth that we have earned and worked very hard for. And why is that important to you?
 Because I'm in the business of raising a better next generation, not just handing life to them on a silver platter. I think one of the things that makes me exceptional is a hunger that is insatiable. And I got that because I wasn't given all of the things that I wanted as a young person. And I'm...
 That hunger, that level of chase, that joy in the journey, that joy in the chase is really what I think keeps me going. I don't know if I'm ever going to get to a point where I'm like I am satisfied and I can relax and I can stop. Not in a financial way, but I always want to be achieving the next thing and I want my kid to feel that way too.
 Your energy is so damn infectious. Thank you. No, no, no. I'm serious. Like I feel stupid saying this, but I'm getting emotional listening to what is like a pep talk from you. I mean, I know that sounds silly, but like it's that infectious. And I didn't know you before you walked in my house and I hugged you. I feel like I've had to give myself that pep talk so many times and I didn't always have someone to give it to me.
 So I had to get really good at it. It was always, and by the way, I'm not a great runner, but I do think it's a great workout. And so what I do when I run is, okay, girl, just make it to the next stop sign. Great. We made it to the next stop sign. Just make it to the fire hydrant. Okay. We made it to the fire hydrant. Make it to the next tree. Okay. We made it to the next tree. Okay. We're going to make it to this cross street. Great. We made it to the cross street. That is how I've always lived my life. And-
 With my career, I think doing it in small bite-sized pieces but always having my eyes on the prize is how I've been able to keep running my race a lot longer and at a pace that I think a lot of other people can't. Over the course of you running that pace, I want to take us back to Wall Street because there's a story that we'll call the Komodo incident. Yeah. Right? Take me into that room.
 Yeah, so about a year and a half into my career, my boss's boss, no, my boss's boss's boss, the head of my desk gets let go. Happens pretty regularly on Wall Street, you know, head of the desk gets canned. And when that happens, they bring in a new head of the desk. Naturally, that guy has his own loyalties from his last shop, fires half of the team, brings in his own guys. Unsurprising.
 But the team that I had signed on to join now looks vastly different than the one that I signed the offer for. Ruin the culture. And I get reassigned because the head of the desk finds out that I am savvy with Excel. I had done a summer in banking, commercial banking, prior to my internship in trading. And.
 And most trading analysts don't need Excel as a daily skill because you're learning different programs, like different technology. You don't really need Excel. But I had that from the summer in banking. He finds out I'm good at that. And he says, oh, well, I have a new guy coming in. He's going to be like my right hand, going to be really making some changes on this team. Do you want to come work for him instead?
 When the new head of the desk asks you that question, it's not really a question, is it? You say yes. You say thank you so much for the opportunity. So I go. I get the new manager. So not only am I devastated to be ripped away from a woman that I've considered my big sister, but I now work for this new guy.
 So you're no longer with Jean. So the audience is clear. I'm no longer with Jean. Okay. By the way, I said kimono. I feel stupid. I misspoke. It's a kimono. Kimono, yes. Please continue. I am now working with this new manager. And all of a sudden, I go from being this rising superstar young woman sitting at the table. Jean's boss used to call me. His nickname for me was Superstar.
 if that tells you what my reputation on the desk was. I get assigned to a new guy. And with this new manager, I can't get a damn thing right. He doesn't like the way my nails click-clack on the keyboard, doesn't like how- Thinks you're too girly? Yes. He said I was too girly for finance. He didn't like how I did my makeup, didn't like anything about me. And one day I came into the office with a long cardigan on
 And he looked at me, touched his hands together, and bowed and said, is that a kimono?
 We have established I am Chinese. And regardless of if I was Japanese or not, what an incredibly disrespectful, racist comment to make to your junior who – what am I going to say? This is the guy who is then responsible to determine whether or not I get a raise or a promotion. This guy has my career in his hands. Right.
 And he has just said one of the most awful things that has ever been said to me in my entire life. What did you do? Obviously, I run over to Jean. I snitch. Call me Remy Ratatouille, Stuart Little. I am Jean. Jean, you got to – I have to tell you something. I don't care. Whatever. But Jean says – And I tell Jean, I'm like, I'm quitting today. Yeah. She goes, no, you're not. You don't have another job lined up. Sit down.
 Fair play. All right, Jean, I will sit down because you are right. I don't have another job lined up. We wrap up the day and she takes me out to dinner that night. And I tell her what happened. And I could just see the disappointment wash over her face because she came up in a time that was eons worse than the one I came up in. Naturally, she's quite a bit senior to me. When she was coming up,
 Those comments were commonplace. All the time. All the time. And obviously, as society has become less Neanderthal, we are not allowed to say those things to people anymore. But she was so bummed. I could see it. And I told her, I was like, I'm going to get out of here. And I just want to let you know. And if you can help me, please. Please.
 I am interviewing at the time with hedge funds, with asset managers. By the way, you would not believe the number of fake doctor's appointments, the number of times that my grandma was in town that I had to sneak out of work to do that. So she ends up saying, well, would you consider switching industries? I say, okay. Yeah, sure. Whatever. I'll take whatever job. I'll do retail. I don't care. She had a friend who had actually started her career. Her name is Susie Cohen. Yeah.
 Susie had started her career at Goldman Sachs and left finance. I think she had like a similar story to mine actually, which is such a disappointment because she's another talented woman. She ended up leaving for tech and media, bounced around a couple places and ended up at BuzzFeed. Jean introduces me to Susie.
 Susie and I have a great conversation. We hit it off. I go through the interview process. It's for a brand strategy sales seat. And so I pitch a company. I do all of that. I can't tell you the first thing about media. I don't know what publishers are. I don't know what platforms are. I don't know what a CPM is. I don't know how dollars are allocated. I can't name a single media agency at all. I know nothing.
 But Jeannie had told Susie that I was the type of girl who could learn anything, that I was willing to put in twice as much so that I could be number one. And so Susie hires me on a flyer. And she says, fine, I'll train her. I'll put in the elbow grease.
 I actually know for a fact that there were a number of managers who had headcount. And so even though Susie had kind of been introduced to me, there were debates about where I would go. And another manager actually said, nah, I don't want to take on that project. Susie says, fine, I'll take it on. In three years' time, I'm the number one seller at BuzzFeed.
 No damn surprise there. What's the lesson when the racist asshole in the room says what they say? Because you wanted to run. Yeah. Gene says no. Essentially, no until you know where you're going. Correct. What's the takeaway? The takeaway is don't make decisions mad. Build a strategy first. Uh-huh.
 Typically, the decisions you make out of a place of rage or fear or any immediate negative reaction is the wrong one. Let it sit. Strategize. Play it out in your head. Hit them when it hurts the most. I don't think I've ever told anybody this. I quit my job at JPMorgan the day after I got back from a two-week vacation. Why? Why?
 because I wanted to go on my vacation and have it be paid for. And then I came back and I said, screw you, I'm leaving. You thought I was going to come back and pick up all the grunt work that had been piling up for two weeks. Find someone else to do it. Do it yourself. Bye. I walked out of the office that day. I wore my best pair of shoes, click clacked out of that office. And I said, great. I start my next job next week.
 I have five days to have a really good week, get my affairs in order, and I barely missed a paycheck. Had it all timed out perfect. And so I think being strategic, taking a beat, making a decision out of a position of power, having more options, you're always going to win. Do you love confrontation? Love. I'm an Aries. David, please. I was born confrontational. Can you be vulnerable?
 I've seen it here, but am I seeing vulnerability or like, am I just getting lucky? I think I am, and I'm not a big astrology girl, but my sun sign is Aries, but my moon sign is cancer. So I'm actually incredibly sensitive. And I think oftentimes that level of confrontation is me trying to get ahead of the ball.
 and not wanting to be blindsided or hurt. So yes, I do think I can be vulnerable and I think I can share things that are uncomfortable. Do you see vulnerability as a strength or a weakness? I think it depends on the situation. I think if someone is going to use it to connect, that's strength. If we're gonna use it as ammo, I'm never gonna show you my weakness.
 I remember a lesson that Jeannie taught me when I was on the trading desk. We would go out on Wednesdays or Thursday nights with clients, and she said, Vivian, no matter what time you get home, you have to say to everybody, you left a little bit before midnight.
 And we would go to some crazy events. I mean, like Red Hot Chili Peppers concerts at Madison Square Garden, the crazy, crazy steakhouse that takes six months to get a reservation at. Every single person is just racking up the bill, top shelf booze, you know, the finest tomahawk steak that comes out with a knife in the middle. Like we had a lot of fun, a lot of good client entertainment. And people wanted to have late nights.
 But no matter how late I stayed out, even if I was out until 4 a.m., went home, showered, and went straight to work, I had to tell everybody I got home a shade before midnight. And I asked her, why do I have to lie about that? And she said, because Vivian, as a woman of color, you are going to have to work twice as hard to get half as much. And people are always going to doubt you. You have to be beyond reproach. You cannot give anybody any ammo. Anything can be seen as a weakness. Don't give it to them.
 We've painted this picture of Jean as sort of the person who believed in you through so many different scenarios. But let's be clear. She wasn't perfect. She wasn't a financial saint, right? So you discover, and it becomes a part of the gift, really. She tells you that she's bought two dogs on separate credit cards because her credit – No. So she bought her dog –
 Her late dog, she bought on two credit cards. Right. Because when she was my age, she was actually incredibly irresponsible with her own money. There you go. She told me that she was like, let me just say this. I have already fallen into every single financial pothole. I don't want you to fall into them. Hmm.
 I was like, should I get a dog? And she goes, don't. Do not. Like, you like to go out. Don't get a dog. You have to be at home with the dog. You have to take care of the dog. The dog is expensive. Don't do it. I remember being like – she was like, hey, are you contributing to your 401K? And I was like, my what? Yeah.
 Didn't even know what that was. She had to be the one to sit me down, explain it, and show me why I should be maxing it out. She taught me all of the financial lessons that she didn't get. And I feel so fortunate because oftentimes with women in particular, sometimes women in more senior positions can see these junior young women as competition or as a frenemy and are like, well, I had to work hard so you have to earn it.
 It was never like that with her. She always told me, she goes, when you win, I win. Your successes are my successes because people are going to wonder who taught her that. And...
 I always wanted to do my best job for her because she always did right by me. But it's important to remember our mentors are not perfect people. They're not. But I love that she wasn't perfect. A hundred percent. I love that she had made all those mistakes because when she was telling me to do something, it didn't feel like empty lip service. It felt like she had learned a lesson the hard way and I got to circumnavigate that mistake and I got to circumnavigate that mistake.
 Everything from – it's so funny. My mom always used to tell me. She was like, Vivian, you have to put on sunscreen. You have to put on sunscreen. I didn't wear sunscreen until guess who told me I needed to wear sunscreen? Jeannie Ma. Because she said, if you want to have better skin, if you want to have fewer wrinkles, and you want to spend less on procedures when you are older, you got to wear sunscreen. I started wearing sunscreen the next day.
 Some parents are quite jealous of their children's mentors. Yeah. What would you say to parents about that? Love your kids as best as you can and help them find a good mentor because sometimes they need to hear it from someone that's not you. Yes. And there is, in my belief, no competition between the mentor and the parent. No. They're different loves. They're different beliefs.
 My mom and Jean met for the first time at my wedding. Oh, really? Yeah. And my mom went up to her and said, thank you for everything that you have given my daughter that she was willing to basically accept from you that she wouldn't take from me. Oh, how beautiful. Yeah. I feel like there's a Jean something coming in the future.
 I don't know if it's a dog. I don't know if it's a child. There's a Jean something coming. I mean, I dedicated my first book to her, to the BFFs who helped me get the book written, and then to that man who said I was too girly to be in finance. They all got dedications. Very different ones. A very kind, thoughtful, loving one to Jean and a big old f***ing you to that guy.
 Yeah, you have it. I love it. From the book, To My Besties. Why don't you read it? Yeah, To My Besties. This book is my love letter to you and anyone who has ever felt left behind, forgotten, or taken for granted. You deserve a life of richness, and I hope this roadmap can get you closer to whatever your dreams may be. I love you. I love you. I love you. To Jean Ma, my rich BFF.
 Thank you for being the big sister I never had. Meeting you was the first time I ever saw an endless world of possibility for someone who looked like me. Your advice throughout the years has helped me navigate the best of times and the worst of times. And to the man who told me I was too girly to ever succeed in finance, you. I want to focus. I love the word. I know we're going to bleep it, but I love it. I'm telling you my blood pressure decreases when I say it. Yeah.
 I am grateful for these people in my life. Me too. Because the few people are the reasons I am where I am today. Correct.
 The people are the ones who didn't want to drive the bus, but now they claim to drive the bus because they want to take credit for it. I am so grateful to have had such a diabolical manager at one point in my life because if he had not basically all but pushed me out of J.P. Morgan –
 I wouldn't have all of this. I wouldn't have what I have today. I wouldn't have this media empire, the two New York Times bestselling books to show for it, a chart-topping podcast. I wouldn't have my first book having gotten licensed to Amazon, currently in development on a show. I wouldn't have every single award that I have. And you know what? I am so fueled by spite because I'm an Aries.
 I love that I know he works in the tri-state area of New York. I love that he probably can't walk by a bookstore without seeing my face in the window. I love that my face has been on billboards in Times Square. I love that right now there is even a campaign of a video of me running across the entire city on all of the subways on rotation. I am inescapable. And you know what?
 I am so grateful that he decided to be such a pig because I now have an entire life to show for it. And I get to share it with so many people. I've been able to help so many people. I've been able to build something that means something. And I would have stayed in that corporate job forever.
 Hearing you talk about yourself in such an affirmative way that can be perceived as cocky is so awesome. And let me tell you why. I can't pay people who sit across from me to talk about themselves in that way because the world has said to us, you will be perceived as arrogant or cocky. And I find myself demuring. You do not demure. Why should I? Everything I have in my life, I have earned.
 Everything in my life is hard fought. Nothing has ever fallen into my lap. I have made a conscious decision to do everything. And I make no apologies for that. I am grateful. I am so grateful. I feel like luck certainly had something to do with it. Good timing, especially when I started posting on social media. But...
 You weren't there with me when I clocked in day in, day out to make content on the weekends while working a full-time job. I deserve all of my wins. I deserve to have the life I have. Why should I be sorry about that?
 You're at BuzzFeed and you go to lunch with a coworker and you'll get a sandwich, right? And so you're leaving and she's like, all right, let's go. And you're like. No. Okay. So it was actually a sit down restaurant. Oh, it was a sit down. Okay. Okay. And so I have this best friend at work. Her name is Allison. Allison Kim Chi. She at the time is the most famous person I have ever met. She has 10,000 followers on Instagram.
 And a small food blog, her side thing. It's very cute, very fun. And she took me to lunch one day and we got meatball subs. And it was like this Italian place that had really good garlic bread, whatever. And I remember us finishing our lunch and me waiting for the bill. And she goes, okay, let's go. I'm like, okay, let's go, girl. I'm not about to get arrested for dining and dashing. She goes, no, no, no. I am going to post photos of this meal and they have comped our bill.
 And I'm like, what are you talking about? She goes, yeah, like they are going to cover this because I'm going to post about it. And she was the one who encouraged me incessantly, might I add.
 to start making finance content on social media because I was the one who helped her rebalance her 401k. I was the one who helped her pick her health insurance plan. I was the one who talked her through how the stock options worked. And I always said to her, Alison, people love to see you make sesame tahini cookies.
 Nobody wants to learn about their 401k. That's so boring. You were dead wrong. I was wrong. I was so wrong. Could not have been more wrong. I make my very first video January 1st of 2021. It's the middle of the pandemic. Your voice is cracking.
 You can hear it in the video. It's so embarrassing. I'm shaking. Right, right, right. You can see my eyes, by the way, darting because I'm reading off of a script. I have no idea how to make content. And I end up putting out my very first TikTok that just says, hey, it's the middle of the pandemic. People are giving out really, really bad financial guidance. Do not put your stimulus check into some meme coin. I can't make you rich overnight. But if you want to learn about money, I can teach you. It's not that complicated. Right.
 And that video ends up getting 3 million views. And I have 100,000 followers by the end of the week. And you also had the perfect captive audience because we were all at home. All at home. We were Tiger King, sourdough, fluffy coffeeing it. So, yeah. There's a pattern here. You, Miss Ma'am, continually take a step forward without a safety net below.
 You continually are taking risks, right? The BuzzFeed thing could have backfired. The social media thing could have gone nowhere. I mean, is that a pattern in your life? I don't think that's necessarily the pattern. I think the pattern is I'm not afraid to be embarrassed. Like –
 I am not afraid to be ridiculed by others because when I tell you I left JPMorgan and went to BuzzFeed, I'm sure a bunch of people that I went to school with at the University of Chicago, a very, very top-tier school where all of the graduates end up as doctors, lawyers, consultants, finance people, I'm sure they were like, this girl has lost her mind. And that is so embarrassing.
 Fine, whatever. It's embarrassing until you find out that three years in, I made more money than I would have had I stayed. That's not embarrassing. My point is you put all the chips in. I do. Right? Like I built this business, but I kept one foot in the CBS news basket. Yeah. You didn't like say, well, I'm going to do JP Morgan, but I'm going to look for something. Right? You like jump both feet.
 A little bit though, right? Because I didn't leave JP Morgan until I had the job offer. Okay. And I didn't leave BuzzFeed until I had a year and three months of proof that Your Rich BFF was going to be, to some extent, a viable option. So for people who don't know, it blows up to what extent? It blows up to an extent where I start extrapolating the deals that are coming in. And I'm like, I think I can make enough to support my life.
 And so what I do is that last year at BuzzFeed, I end up making $625,000. I had a really good year. And I put $100,000 in cash aside. This is not my emergency fund. This is not a sinking fund for stuff. This is my Vivian wants to try your rich BFF fund. And if it doesn't work out for a year, that $100,000 is going to pay for rent. It's going to pay for groceries. It's even going to pay for things like vacation. So I don't have to take a massive step back in my lifestyle because I don't want to resent it.
 A year and three months in, I quit my job. I take your rich BFF full time. And I think within three months knew that I was never going to have to touch that $100,000. Yeah. You left. It was a $600,000 job. Crazy, right? At BuzzFeed. And by the way, I had an incredible manager who loved me, thought the sun shined out of my butt that I could do no wrong. Yeah.
 I had coworkers who I liked, who I enjoyed spending time with outside of work. I was well-respected at the company, so if there was anything that I needed to close a deal, people would bend over backwards for me. It was a cherry seed. In any other reality, I would have been literally crazy to leave.
 So your rich BFF became a phenomenon, right? It was a social media platform. It became the impetus for a book, right? It's what you've done. You were quoted as saying, I want the next generation to feel more confident around their finance than their parents did. Yeah.
 I feel like our parents' generation had their financial influencers, whether that be a Dave Ramsey, Susie Orman, Jim Cramer, you know, Robert Kiyosaki. They had it. But a lot of that education came with a package of shame and judgment and embarrassment. And one thing I'll tell you about my generation is that we don't respond to that.
 If I were to sit here and tell my audience, you can never buy avocado toast again. You can't have the latte. You can't get that bag. You can't go on a vacation. They would tune me out. I know that. My audience wants to have it all while still making smart financial decisions. And so I have to change my strategy, change my messaging to help them understand how they can have both.
 What sacrifices can they make today for a better tomorrow? But what are also things that they can take advantage of today so that they don't feel like they're deferring joy? And I think that's something that the past generation very much was missing. And so I hope that across all of the content I've made, the books, the podcasts, all of it, that any person who has interacted with my content is smarter for it, feels more confident, and feels like they are more ready to take on their financial journey.
 All right. So let's do a real life habit scenario situation. We'll call it rich person or broke person, right? Just give me your reaction. Somebody leases a $90,000 car, but has roommates. Ooh, broke. Makes $300,000 and still uses their parents' Netflix. That could be rich, honestly. If it's a family plan, why not? Pays for clarity as a pre-checking airport lounge access, but has credit card debt.
 Well, did they get it for free through the credit cards that they have debt on? Because if it was free, that's fine, but they should really work on the debt. Excellent response. All right. What would Vivian do? You get a $50,000 raise tomorrow. What changes first? Well, I would say the first thing that changes is, if possible...
 I'm allocating more towards my retirement. I probably want to make sure that I have an emergency fund that is at least three to six months of living expenses. Max that out. Make sure that's good first. I'm paying down any sort of high interest rate debt, so anything above 7%.
 And then additional funds, I'm going to put towards more investing, more towards the future, maybe an individual retirement account, either the traditional or Roth variety. But also, I'm setting aside probably about 5% of it for fun. I'm going to go take a trip or I'm going to go buy something nice. Would you rather buy a home now or invest the difference? That is such a hard question to answer because it would depend on the home.
 the geographical location, what I thought about whether or not that market would appreciate, and if I planned on living in that geography for at least five to seven years. Okay. Your friend is secretly broke but pretending to be rich. What do you tell them? Ew. Ew.
 Why? Like, I think it's crazy that people want to look rich and will go broke to do so. Because at the end of the day, wherever you go, there you are. Like, at some point, you're not going to be able to fake retirement. You're not going to be able to fake leisure or getting away from your job. Do you want to be working when you're 90?
 Well, okay, hold on. I do because I love what I do to that extent. That's completely different. That is completely different. Fair, fair, fair. Because you don't have to work. You get to work. There's a huge difference between things that you get to do and you have to do. You're right. You're right.
 Okay, thank you. Yes, ma'am. Okay, talk about some of the biggest financial scams that we accept, right? Like things that you think in this world exist today that are an absolute racket, but people just sign up for and do. Prediction markets? Okay. Sorry. I think we just got a PR spin on gambling because yes, when you invest in the stock market,
 There is an underlying asset. There's underlying value. So you buy a share of Apple. You own a teeny tiny piece of that company. What is the underlying asset you own when you go on to a prediction market and invest on who you think the next LSU basketball coach is going to be?
 Tell me. I don't think there is one. You are gambling. It's actually way more fun to just go to Vegas, go hit a slot machine. That's actually entertainment value. You're just gambling on your phone. That's embarrassing and weird. But people are having a whole lot of fun doing it. Are they? Oh, I think it's absolutely. I think most people, average people, are losing a lot of money. And then there's a small group of insiders who figured out a way to game the system. I'll tell you something.
 The streaker at the Super Bowl this year had put in a prediction market bet that there was going to be a streaker. Then he proceeded to purchase two front row whatever tickets. And he had his friend jump down first, got tackled by all the security. Then he jumped down, was naked, ran around. And his prediction market bet came true. I think he wagered $50,000 and the payout was around $600,000. Should that be a crime? Yeah.
 That's literally insider trading, right? If we're going to call it a prediction market, like you are personally influencing the outcomes. Like if I were to – I was not allowed to do this, by the way. When you work on Wall Street and you trade a certain book, you are not allowed to personally trade that name. So, for example, if I trade Apple –
 I can't be like, oh, I'm going to buy a bunch of Apple stock in my own portfolio at home because I know another hedge fund is buying it. So naturally, the price will go up. You have more information than other people. That is material, like information that the general public does not have. That is insider trading. You cannot do that. Touche. All right. Build a starter pack for me. So help me create, let's say, the best financial setup for a 22-year-old. Okay. Starter pack, I would say...
 High-yield savings account. Good credit card that you're paying off in full on time every single month. It helps boost your credit score, but also probably does get you a bunch of free perks like those lounges and the TSA pre-check. I would say an investment account, both in the form of retirement through your employer-sponsored or an individual retirement account, but also even just an individual brokerage. Okay. And then –
 From there, I would say plan. You need to write down on paper and tell a friend, tell somebody you trust what you want to be, what you want to do, where you want to be at in five, 10, and 20 years. Why tell them? Because they'll help hold you accountable? Accountability, buddy. What's the smartest $10,000 spending plan? I think it depends on the rest of your financial situation. If you are at more of the beginning of your career
 It could potentially just be smart to invest it in public equities as you'll have a lot of time for it to grow and compound. If you are getting closer to the middle of your career, that $10,000 might actually be better used to somehow get you a leg up. So whether that is...
 some level of certification that's going to allow you to get a bigger pay bump at the next role. Interesting. Perhaps it's the night MBA program. Perhaps it's whatever. Can you use that money and get a return on it pretty immediately? Should I rent or buy a house? Depends on who you are. Depends on if you are comfortable fixing the toilet at 2 a.m. Because if you are, you can be a homeowner. But if you're not, you want to rent.
 Are you cool with the idea that the closing costs are going to be expensive enough that if you don't stay there for at least five to seven years, the purchase will not make sense? So you should not be buying if you're going to be moving in five years. That's a good point. Like there's frictional costs. That's a good point. But also, what does your life look like?
 Are you ready to put down roots, start a family, stay in that city? Or are you vying for that next big career jump promotion where you become the head of the team in London? Because if so, why are you buying a home now? You're making me feel like my decisions have been accurate. So thank you. Good. The perfect credit card stack. There's no such thing as the perfect credit card stack. I would look at your own personal spending. I kind of categorize into largely two categories.
 There are the yuppies, the folks who spend a lot on travel, a lot on dining out. You're a city slicker. You're largely looking for experiences. And then there are folks who spend a lot on gas, groceries, retail purchases. These folks who are spending more on gas, groceries, retail purchases might be better off with a cashback card. The yuppies who are spending a lot on experiences might be better off with a travel rewards card.
 The ideal side hustle set up in 2026. You know, I think it's hard to say, but I still think there's room in content creation. It is one of the only zones where the barrier to entry is zero. All you need is your cell phone and...
 Good sunlight. But people think it's easy and it ain't easy. People think that every 60-second video I make takes 60 seconds to make. No. I'm writing and ideating a script. I am filming. I am editing. I am adjusting the sound. I am then writing copy for the caption. I am then posting across multiple different platforms. I am engaging in the comments. I am making sure that everything is good.
 And let me tell you, that's a lot of time and a lot of effort. How many times do you post a week? Once a day. Every single day? Every day. Ever since January 1st of 2021. Talk to the audience that is demoralized by the fact that they may only get 900 likes, 32 comments, and 17 shares. And feel like they're not a success. Maybe you haven't hit your big viral moment yet, but you're never going to hit your big viral moment if you stop creating.
 That obviously I'm a little bit of a fluke because my very first video went viral. That said, that wasn't the most viral video I've ever had. It's not the first viral – it's not the last viral video I've had. I think –
 that what makes me stand out in terms of content creation is my pain tolerance. I have been able to do this for longer. I know other people who also started creating content around when I did, and then they started petering out. Life got busy. They had other things that they wanted to do. They wanted to take time off. Great. You do that, and I'm going to start lapping you.
 My pain tolerance is higher than other people and I think a part of that is starting my career on Wall Street. My butt was in that seat at 545 in the morning. I didn't leave until roughly 637. Sometimes I had to go to client entertainment after work. I can run it out for longer than you can. I am a Duracell battery.
 I'm laughing because I just so identify with that. I feel like so much of my success has come because I was willing to try for the 57th time and the 70th time. I'm not better or smarter. I want it more. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. What are simple things that rich people do that people with less money haven't figured out? Well, I think rich people love to talk about money.
 You ever been to a country club, like a really fancy country club? Yeah, I love it. They're teeing off. How much is your kid's private school tuition? Oh, what's in your investment portfolio? Which mortgage broker did you work with? Like, oh, does your wife like have a sales associate at Hermes? They're constantly having those conversations around money and spending and investing and all of those things. But why have the rest of us been told that talking about money is taboo?
 rich people love talking about money. When I sat on the desk at JP Morgan, people were trading like, oh, you should use my accountant. By the way, like, I can't trade this because it's in my book, but you should think about it. They love to talk about money. Rich people love talking about money. It's only rude and tacky and gauche when we do it. I genuinely think. Who's we? Who's we? We is the regular population. People who didn't grow up with it. People whose parents did not work on Wall Street. People who were not born into wealth.
 I think it is so crazy because I grew up in a Chinese household and Chinese people also love to talk about money. But it's more in the sense of like you'll be like, oh, nice TV. And I'll be like, oh, my gosh. Yes. Guess how much. And I will tell you what a great deal I got on it. That is a very Chinese thing, especially in my family. Given that you're rich, do you still appreciate a good deal?
 Nobody appreciates a good deal more than me and, frankly, more than rich people. Rich people love to haggle. They love to negotiate. They are going to lowball you. They love it. It's a sport to them because when you know you can walk away from any deal, why wouldn't you try to get a better price? Like, one of the richest people I know...
 I was with a couple different folks. They're all incredibly well-to-do. They all have more money than me. And one of them found out that because of what one of them does, they had a discount at a luxury store.
 She said, we're going. You are going to take me and I am going to use your friends and family and I am going to buy out the store. It wasn't about the fact that she had to spend money. She wanted to know that she was getting the best deal possible. And this is a rich bitch. So rich. So rich. You said earlier and you were very punctuating. Yeah. I am rich. Yeah. But you said it as if some people have doubted it in the past. Like where does that inflection come from? I am rich.
 It's not that some people have doubted it. I could care less what people actually think. I'm the one who gets to go home to my apartment. I'm the one who gets to go home and take that vacation. I don't need to prove anything to anybody. But the reason I say that inflection is because I also recognize that I now sit in a position of privilege. It is my obligation to teach other people how to be smart with their money because I didn't get this education.
 It was all hard fought. I was so lucky to have met a mentor who was willing to give me that insight. Like, I am rich, but I want to see all of the young women coming up in their careers. All of the young women who came from immigrant backgrounds. And frankly, all of the young men, all of just the young people who never felt like this was a world that they were allowed to belong to, belong. You talk about being abundance minded. What does that mean?
 You know, I think with my parents, they were immigrants who focused heavily on survival. They were always waiting for the shoe to drop. Like, they were all very, like, swirly in that way. Whereas I am someone who feels like there's always more where that came from. I have turned down deals that are half a million dollars and larger.
 Because I didn't think it was the right fit for my brand and I didn't want to ruin the trust that I had built with my audience. Half a million dollars is a lot of money, ain't it? But is it worth what I've built? No. Talk to me about being the chief empowerment officer for SoFi. What is that? Define that.
 Yeah, it is my opportunity to help improve what SoFi is able to offer to all of their members. But it's also my opportunity to make sure that everybody who watches the content we create together, like they get the education they deserve. I am so lucky because we are basically a feedback loop for each other. When I get feedback on their products, I go back and say, hey.
 These are things that I think we could improve upon. These are things that we're doing really well. I also get to suggest, hey, I think we need to do a content series on HELOCs because people don't understand them. Or, hey, do you think it would be helpful if we did certain activities, activations around college students? Because that's when people are very confused right as they're about to graduate. Right.
 I get to make these suggestions. They get to have that feedback loop of how to improve their products. And on top of that, the greatest joy of being the chief...
 of financial empowerment at SoFi is I get to lead an initiative with their generational wealth fund. So Kelsey Ballerini, Jason Tatum, they are also partners of SoFi. And Kelsey is supporting schools in Nashville. Jason is supporting first-time homebuyers in St. Louis. Obviously, these are locations and initiatives close to their home and their heart. For me, I can't share exactly what my initiative is yet, but just know that I'm going to
 It is something that is so important to me. And I think for me, being able to give back in that way is the honor of my lifetime. Talk to me about another thing close to your heart. Yeah. Boo. His name is? Greg. How'd y'all meet? Basement of a dive bar. He actually worked on the same team as my girl roommate at the time. And it's so funny because...
 You ever just meet someone and you're like, I feel like I've known you my entire life. Sure. Yeah. There were just things that I never had to explain to him. He just got me. It always feels like he can read my mind. And there are some times that we are in social settings and I'm about to say something completely out of pocket and he'll just be like, don't. I'm like, how did you know? How did you know about the evil thing that was about to come out of my mouth? Yeah.
 I feel like we must have been together in another lifetime. What makes the relationship work? I think that we are each other's biggest cheerleaders. I'm going to be honest with you. As a woman who makes millions of dollars in her business every single year, there are very few men that I think would be comfortable with that because they are not comfortable
 man enough or they feel like my star shining so bright dims theirs. That's never been the case for my husband. He's always been my biggest supporter. When I was thinking about quitting and taking your HBFF full time, I asked him, I was like, what happens if I don't make any money? He was like, Vivian, I'm an investment banker on Wall Street. Like, do you think we're going to starve? We'll be fine. Because he gives me that parachute, that safety net.
 I'm about to take some monstrous swings at bat and they're all homers, but I don't know if I am as confident to take those swings if I don't have them. Okay. So now I get to ask you the question of what a critic might say. Okay, lady, fine. You're a multimillionaire. You've got a handsome husband that makes probably as much money, if not more. You come from a place of privilege. That all sounds fancy, but what if I don't have a hymn? What if I don't have a golden parachute? What if I don't, you know, I can't do social videos that hit the algorithm every time like you do.
 How do they advance? How do they make it? What do you say to them? Make yourself the main plot line. Whatever that might be, you need to be climbing Cringe Mountain. Ooh. Okay? Cringe Mountain. All right. So here is us, okay? Okay. We are all little villagers. Okay. And we live in the base of Cringe Mountain. And we're all like, eh, we're all villagers. Great. Great.
 As soon as someone attempts to do something with their life, whether it's they start making content online, embarrassing, super embarrassing at the beginning. Super. They try to get that new promotion, which means that they're going to have to put in way more hours at work. They're going to have to give up a lot in their work-life balance. Maybe it means that they have to take a step back from their child-rearing duties or whatever. They're trying to get that promotion. Or maybe even it's they're moving states and starting a new career entirely. They're starting to climb Cringe Mountain. Okay?
 And all of the villagers at the bottom of the mountain are like, that's so embarrassing. That is so cringe. Okay, fine. They can all make fun of you. But you're climbing Cringe Mountain. You're climbing Cringe Mountain. And then maybe you get that big race. And you get that first viral video. And maybe that career change is totally worth it. You have your biggest year. You make enough money to buy a home that you love. You are now getting closer to the peak of Cringe Mountains.
 When you get to the peak, you look down. What's on the other side of Cringe Mountain? An oasis. An oasis of good things, opportunities, amazing wins.
 But the little villagers in the town, they don't even know what's on the other side of Cringe Mountain because they've never had the gall to climb it themselves. So you owe it to them to tell them? Is that what you're saying? To tell them? No. These are the people who have made fun of you. I don't care about them. Oh. I had a girl DM me one of my own videos that I knew. I knew this girl. She DMed me my own video with the caption, she's so cringe. And it was very clear she was talking smack about me with somebody else.
 And I responded to her and I was like, thank you, Memphis, for somebody else. And she was so embarrassed. She tried to like walk it back and everything. And I was like, don't even worry about it. Don't even worry about it. Like you are still stuck in our small hometown. You got nothing to show for it. Dead end job. Nothing's gone right for you. I'm happy with my life. But don't we want to show some of the people at the bottom of Cringe Mountain that they're wrong? For what? Yeah.
 So what? Prove to them that you did it? I don't need to prove it to them. I did do it. I know what, I know that there's an oasis there. I'm about to take the sled down. So I just think that anybody who feels like they're lost and they need to have a little bit of a pep talk to like try something new, we as a society ridicule people who are doing things and then we clap and praise people who have done things.
 So true. So if you are going to be someone who has done something incredible, you unfortunately have to be someone who is doing something cringey. What is our friend Jean doing today? She is still in a trading role. She's the head of a desk. She is the smartest person I know. You keep in touch? She was at my wedding. I see her for hot pot for dinner when I'm back in New York. Yeah. I text her for advice.
 I love that you don't mind being public about how much you love her. Of course. Why would I shy away from that? She's someone who's given me a lot of the education that I never got. I have to give flowers where they're due. And...
 She never would have told anyone that she had gifted me all those things or taught me all those things. I have to be the one to say it. You're very forward looking. And this concept of a show required you to look in the rearview mirror. Yeah. How was that experience triggering the gratitude that you feel?
 I mean, it is a walk down memory lane. I think it gives me a little bit of perspective. I think I'm someone who struggles to smell the flowers. I told you earlier that I'm insatiably hungry. I always want to be doing the next thing, want to be chasing. And I think to an extent, that's a really good trait of mine. But it can also be a bad one in that I win an award. I feel a high for 15 minutes and then I'm like, all right, back to business as usual. I have to remind myself that me, January 1st of 2021,
 If I told her everything that I have accomplished today, she wouldn't believe me. She would never believe me. She would be so proud. And I think that's how my mentors throughout my life feel. I feel lucky to have had a number of them. But I think this conversation was heartwarming.
 I'll probably call Jean on the car ride back to my hotel and just tell her thanks for everything. This podcast is owned by a company that I started called Do Good Crew, right? And at the core of what we do is to try and do some good. And I want to end with a story out of the University of Delaware where you were speaking. Yeah. And a woman walked up to you and said –
 I was speaking at the University of Delaware. I did a presentation on financial wellness and strategies that college students could use to make smarter financial decisions. At the end of my presentation, I had a young woman come up to me and she said, I want to let you know, I don't go to the University of Delaware. My friend who goes here snuck me in, but I had to come and see you because you made a video about how you can negotiate your medical bills and how charity care works and
 I ended up calling the hospital where I had a $5,000 bill. And based on all of my details, all of my information, they wiped the entire bill. I don't have to pay the $5,000. You have single-handedly changed my life. She starts crying. Naturally, I start crying. I have worked in a job where I made rich people richer. I was trading on behalf of hedge funds and asset managers.
 I've worked in a job where I made advertisers richer, helping them get sales or sell products at BuzzFeed. And to now be in a position where I get to make the everyday person who can take 60 seconds out of their day to watch a video of mine richer, it's a gift. My hope is that you get more of those. Thank you. I've gotten a number. I mean –
 I've gotten DMs about domestic violence survivors having the money to leave because I've taught them how to save that money. I've gotten messages that are like, hey, I really didn't think this was going to work, but I asked for a raise with your strategy and I got it. It's life-changing money. I can't believe that actually worked. I'm like, why did you not think that was going to work? One, but two, I'm so happy for you.
 People who went in and checked their Roth IRAs, who had just contributed dollars, never invested anything. I had warned them about that. They went and checked it. Oops, that was a mistake. They fixed it. Now they're on track for retirement. So many of these stories are a reminder of why I do what I do every day. And man, does it feel good. Are you the woman what the younger you wanted to see? I think if younger me saw me out in the world, she would idolize me.
 She would love that I now get to wear beautiful shoes that click clack on marble floors that I can afford any bag that I want. But these days, if I'm honest, I showed up to your house holding 8,000 things just in my hands because I still have poor time management just as I did back in the day, always running a little late. But I think she would be so, so proud of what I have built my life into and what I have been able to give to the people around me and the people I love the most.
 your experiences end up being packaged as little gifts of lessons for us. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. I'm Vivian Tu, and the person who believed in me is Jean Ma.