Mystic Pizza with Hallie Bateman

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef In best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Jamie, Yeah, I have a secret recipe for my pizza, but I can't tell you yet why. I don't know. I'm not retired. The reasons unclear. It's just a secret. Okay, it's just a secret. Oh, you know what I've heard, and I think what the actual reason would be. It's said a woman's heart as an ocean full of secrets, including is that what Rose to it Pikater was talking about at the end of Titanic. It's the pizza sauce from Mystic Pizza, exactly what she's talking about. I thought she's a big fan of that movie. Honestly. Oh, she could have seen it. Wow, that's so interesting to think about Rose to Wippycator canonically could have seen pizza. She seems like she would go to the movies. She's like a she's a regular lady. I bet her and her granddaughter went. Yeah, I mean her granddaughter seems like she would have been like the target demo, especially in. I mean, she certainly loved to tease her hair, much like Julia Roberts. There. Wow, okay, well you know what. Here's here's something, here's something that's going to pass the Becktel cat test. Oh god, I don't give a ship within your pieces as Caitlin, I don't care. I'm not interested. That is my feminism. I understand. That's that's perfectly okay. Wow, well test. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast, which is the name of the podcast, which is about the Bechdel Test sort of, I mean barely well, yes and no. Mostly about pizza what's in it and women's hearts being deep oceans of secrets. I feel like the secret ingredient to everything is like a thousand Island dressing, but that that couldn't be the case in this case, or unless unless, unless it's thousand Island dress, I'll never tell. This is our This is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens. Yes, and we do use the Becktel test simply as a jumping off point to inspire a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test is, of course a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, in which our variation on the test is two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, have to speak to each other, and that conversation has to be about something other than a man slash. Again, another little twist we have on it is does it fit those criteria? And also is it a meaningful conversation to the narrative or is it a quick exchange that could easily be removed from the story and nothing would be changed. Fortunately, not too much to worry about today, although you know, we'll talk about it, and we have an incredible guest per usual to talk about this genuinely lovely movie. Oh my gosh, I can't wait to talk about it. And our guest is a writer and illustrator. Her work has been featured in The New Yorker, the New York Times. She has a new book up right now called Directions. It's available wherever books are sold. It's Hallie Bateman. Welcome, Welcome, thanks for being here. I'm so happy to be here. We're really happy to have you. And you brought us mystic pizza. You brought us actual yummy, yummy. Thank you so much. It's scrub. I came with pizza. I don't like to come empty handed. You know, we appreciate it. We thought it was really really kind of you to do. God, I feel like, yeah, we're just like Larpin being able to see people. Wow, thank you so much for bringing the pizza. Oh my goodness. Um, tell us about your relationship, your history with the movie Mystic Pizza. Yeah, so my story with Mystic Pizza is just that it was like love at first viewing. I just loved this movie from the first time I saw it. I think that was I don't remember exactly how old I was. I think it was like late high school, early college, like came across it somehow, and it wasn't like I saw it and I was immediately like, oh, this is my favorite movie. It was just the kind of thing that like every time I like rewatched it or like revisited it, I was like, oh, this is like my favorite movie. Like this just movie just as good and I and surprising, and like I have a huge affinity for like Gilmore girls, Like I'm a real Gilmore Girls obsessive. So the sort of like East Coast like environment, Like I grew up on the mountain and the booneyes in the West coast, so there was something very like appealing and like different about like lobsters and like the Atlantic Ocean that was just like so exotic to me. And so and I love like cable knit sweaters and like fall leaves. So it's just got the whole package plus like Julia Roberts, I mean, it's just it's a sexual awakening in Her hair is so big. I love it. There's an entire like hole in the Ozone lair dedicated to her hair. Her hair has like a metamorphosis throughout the movie. Like it's yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, I kind of hope that look comes back. I was as I was watching it, I'm like, teased hair. It's time, it's time. I'm ready, Jamie, I think you could really get this trend started again, really messy hair. It would it would be a trend that would work in my favor, right. I do think she pulls it off like better than anyone else has. I mean, true, it's a hard look to land. Yeah, she nails it, though, she does. Jamie, what's your relationship with this movie? Um? I had never seen this movie before, which is I kind of I guess I'm kind of surprised. I've seen a lot of rom coms and this movie. I grew up in New England, and so I don't know why I wasn't like held down and made to watch this movie as a kid, but it wasn't. But I really really enjoyed it. They were like, I don't, I don't know, like because the movie came out in eight eight. I was just like, well, you know, we'll see how this hold up. And I definitely have some you know, like thoughts on it, but in general, I thought it was a really well written and thoughtful movie that reminded me. I guess I'm a little biased because it's like three poor like friends who were all like sort of related but sort of not. Reminds me a lot of my childhood, and and Mystic reminds me a lot of where my mom lives, which is like a fishing town in Massachusetts with a huge wealth gap because my mom famously loves to date lobster fisherman. And so a lot of this was Ransom Bells. I was like, oh yeah, like just like boogie people walking among the regular people and being like Wow, this is so cute. Is like something that is uh very recognizable to me. So I liked I I felt like this movie captured that in a in a really cool way. Uh, Kitler, and what's your history with this movie? I also had never seen this movie. I will say it's the type of movie that I'm not generally drawn towards. Like I like a good character driven movie here and there, but I also tend to prefer, you know, adventures and romps and such of course, so I wasn't sure if I would like this or not. But then I was very much taken by surprise and that I did like it a lot, and I yeah, I think it holds up pretty well for a movie from the eighties. I love Jojo. I did take a not a BuzzFeed quiz, but like a similar quiz. It was like zoo dot com. I was like, where did you find this website? I just googled like BuzzFeed Mystic Pizza question Mars and this quiz came up. I did get Jojo as which Mystic Pizza character are you? So I was very pleased with the results. I got Cat. Wow. So that makes me, Julia, I feel like and I'm by by default. I guess I'm fine with that, or this recording really isn't gonna work. It's like when you're doing a sex in the city like joke with your friends and you're naming who each one is, and then whoever's left over it just has to be the fourth character, right. So yeah, I was pleasantly surprised with this movie. I have been to Mystic Support before, so I've been to this town. Yeah, I went with my family sometime in elementary school. Um, and I do have a memory of this place. So did you go to the pizzeria? No, we did not. I'm so sorry. That's okay, go back, though. I wonder, Yeah, I wonder how I mean, Hallie and I apparently both Today we're on the official Mystic Pizza location website to try to get T shirts that are like the ones in the movie, And it seems like it's become a real like the movie made the pizza place like more famous, and they just leaned into it. They're like, yeah, whatever the movie said, that's what it's like. But the movie would not exist without the pizzeria exact, which is like a wild confluence of events, right, It's like a Chicken and Egg, but like, wow, which came first? It was the pizzeria. Should I do the recap and we'll go from there? Yeah, let's do it. So we are in Mystic, Connecticut, which is a small fishing community with a significant population of Portuguese American families. The movie focuses on three best friends to who are sisters Daisy and cat Arugo, who are played by Julia Roberts and Annabeth Gish respectively. They are good friends with Jojo Barboza, who was played by Lily Taylor. We open on JoJo's wedding to Bill, and that is Vincent Dinofrio, Young Vincent Dinofrio. I wasn't prepared same, Yeah, he's so huge. He's such a huge man. I was trying to rack my brain and like, have I seen him in anything else besides the like alien villain in Men in Black? I've seen him in Law and Ordered Criminal Intent with my mom. That's where I had seen him. But I'm looking, where is he yet? He was in full metal jacket, haven't seen it? He was in a show called the series in don't Men in Black? Is he the guy who says sugar water? Correct? That's an iconic performance that my brothers and I were absolutely obsessed with replicating. So that very dear to my heart, I think that's him right now. I'm going to be embarrassed if it's not. I'm pretty sure. Wait now, have not me googling Vincent Dinofrio sugar Water. It's also like his face like stretched over an alien at that point. Yes, it is, he is the sugar Water guy. Okay, that's what I thought. Cool, there's a whole Vulture article about it. Vincent Dinofrio is Men in Black, a sugar Water oral history. Okay, so obviously it's like a cultural touchstone that a lot of people are into. Sugar Water's impact was felt more than I could have imagined. And then also I wasn't ready for baby Matt Damon in this his first film appearance, I believe. Yeah, so such a baby, little little yuppy. But also like could be the same character from Goodwill Hunting based on geography, like he was you know, he was on the coast, Like it could be like young will you know? He could be like what is that other movie? He could be fantastic Mr ripley Ng and like has a identity a talented Mr Ripley talented. Mr that was fantastic. Mr Fox. You know what, let's just recap the movie. Okay, so um. We opened on JoJo's wedding to Bill. She faints because women beat fainting, but she faints for a funny reason. She faints at the thought of a long term commitment and the wedding gets called off. That priest in that scene was cracking me up. Like the that that guy gave a performance of Like I didn't write down any of the quotes, but it's like you will be together until your last bread so good. And then like JoJo's face is so good. She just looks not like she's like absolutely like paralyzed with fear, and I love that. It's like the music and like the camera being like first person just makes it like a full horror movie like her wedding day. Also, was there only one style of Fred Smids stress for the entire decade of the eighties. I feel like we have seen that exact dress in so and including like my parents wedding too. It just seems like it's not just in movies like that. I you know, no disrespect to people who would wear that dress, but that hideous dress has been worn by so many people. It's like flammable fabric, Like whatever it is, it just looks like it would catch on fire really easily. I it's shocking to me. Like, even if it's a rich person's wedding, they have that dress. If it's a poor person's wedding, they have that dress. Like everyone wore that ugly ass dress. Mystery the eighties, I know, truly. So then we cut to Daisy, Cat and Jojo at work. They all work at this place called Mystic Pizza, which is owned by Leanna played by Concata Farrell p R I P. Daisy's whole thing is that she's kind of crass. She swears, she's a big flirt. Her sister Cat, by comparison, is far more modest and reserved. She's like the good girl of the family. Um and then like Joe Joe, how to describe her, She's she's wacky. She has a bit of a frantic energy. Bill is humiliated about the wedding and how it went wrong, but he still wants to get married and Joe Joe is like, uh, you know, I do love you Bill, but I don't know about this whole marriage thing. Meanwhile, Cat gets a second job working for this guy, Tim Traverse, babysitting for his young daughter, Phoebe. Tim is also just like another person who like only could have existed in the eighties, just like looks wise, like where did all those people go? And that look exactly that way? Hate? I hate Tim. M Yes, Tim is absolutely trash. Um. Okay, so she gets a job babysitting while Tim's wife. His wife is working overseas because she's trying to save up money because she got into Yale to study astronomy and she and her friends are all working class. Um, so you know, affording Yale will not be the easiest thing for Cat. You know who's not working class is this guy Charlie windsor Junior or whatever the ship. He's got like five names. I can't stand him there. Yeah, he's this rich yuppie kid who one night comes into a bar where Daisy Cat and Jojo are hanging out, and Daisy thinks he's cute and he takes a liking to Daisy and asks her to play pool with him, which she's really good at. That scene is so fun. Yeah, and then Charlie's like, but then his rich yuppy friends are like, let's get out of here. So then Helaurna, do you guys remember Lorna wished? She was just like why why can't we play pool at my house? It's like she has a fool table. It's like, shut up, Lorna. I thought it was so like there. It was really funny that it was like they came in and they ordered wine at a bar, and then the three girls the like Daisy gets so upset, She's like, what the fun how dare they like it is? It's as as uh, someone who's frequented towny bars. I'm like that tracks, that tracks, that's not the place to order white wine. Then we get a scene where Daisy, Kat and Joe were just hanging out there talking about their futures. Daisy feels kind of aimless. And then a few days later, Daisy comes home and there's Charlie talking to her mom and tests that one. I don't think it does very well love when someone just shows up. He had to have stalked her or detective her. I don't know, like even like for sure you just had to stop it. But it's like in a way that would be I mean, it's hard it's thankfully hard to find out what someone's addresses now, but you have to imagine it would have been even harder, like, well, how did he don't know? Maybe it's a rich person thing and he's just like you're a hard woman to track down or something. But then it's funny that she's almost not surprised. She's just like, yeah, men, men track me down all the time, Like this is scary. This is scary. And also her mom, I would be very protective of my daughter of some random guy just showed up and was like, I'm just here for your daughter I've barely actually ever spoken to. And then he like insults her mom and he's like, your mom needs a drink, Like you just look at what you're doing. Um. That was like one of the more eighties moments of this. I'm like, oh, we're just gonna let this fly right by. Okay, got it? Yeah, And then he takes Daisy out on a date in his red Porsche. They get to know each other. Turns out that he's an Ivy League school dropout. Meanwhile, Cat has been chatting with Tim Trevor's the guy that she baby sits for, and it seems like maybe something's developing there. Then back at Mystic Pizza, they watch this restaurant critic on TV who tends to give you know, scathing reviews, and they think that they should invite him to Mystic Pizza to try their signature pizza. Also, Leona has a secret recipe for the pizza. Um, but Leone is like, this guy's a pretentious moron. We're not going to have him here. So then Daisy and Charlie get closer. Kat and Tim are clearly developing feelings towards each other. Jojo and Bill are trying to reconnect. She is very horny for him. He doesn't get why she won't marry him. She's horny for his wrists. Yes, well, I do really appreciate how they just like blatantly objectify Bill in the scene where like Jojo is just like oh my god in his body, like it's just like it's it's right, because later he's like you only like me for my dick, and she's like, wow, I can't argue with that. That whole Yeah, that whole storyline was like I was like surprised by it because it's like so often the opposite where it's like she's a prude and he all he wants to do is get her a bet, but he's like, no, the Lord doesn't want us to fuck, and she's like, but I've already, and you're like, god, this is such a new England issue. He's just like waiting around for her to propose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His whole thing is like he loves her, he wants them to be married and he wants this firm commitment instead of them kind of like sneaking around. But then they have a fight because he makes a joke and calls her a nympho, which he like plasters on his boat. Yeah that was some projecting on his part, yeah, and then she retaliates by taking his truck and driving it to the country club, where Daisy sees Charlie with another woman. So she dumps to like fifty gallon barrels of fish from Bill's truck into Charlie's Porsche convertible. But it turns out the woman, this other woman is Charlie's sister, So Daisy is like oops, and Charlie's like, you know what, no big deal, I've got so many Porsche's. Like he's like kind of like, oh, that's funny, and You're like, well, it's he's not wrong, but it's basically a flirt of that. He's just like, oh, she flirted with me. She dumped fish in my Porsche. I guess she really likes me. I really want to dump fish in someone's car now. It was that was a very cathartic thing to watch, right. So then Bill breaks up with Jojo. You know, she's not sure what she wants exactly. Daisy and Cat get in a fight because Cat has been spending all this time with Tim, and Daisy is kind of sick of everyone acting like Cat is this perfect little angel, but she's also looking out for her sister. And then Kat and Tim kiss and it's implied that they have sex, right. I yeah, it cuts away, but I think, yeah, yeah, like in a haunted mansion. Right. I was like, where is this there? I hate him so much. He's the worst. He really is the worst kind of person. And my only if I if there's I mean, there's one thing I would change about this movie is she should have you know, I know it was a pride thing, but she should have taken that man's money. I swear to God that guy. So Kat and Tim have sex and then later that night they discover that Tim's wife has come home from England, and Kat is heartbroken. She feels really foolish. Daisy comforts her, and then that pretentious food critic comes into Mystic Pizza and they're all worried about what he's going to think, because maybe seems like he didn't like he looks like such a cartoon character. He's wearing like a bucket hat. It's sort of not like visually, but just the whole vibe of it. I'm like, oh, it's like Rat a Tweek, Yes, except he looks like Sherlock Holmes. For some reason, you reminded me of this. I wonder if this was a reference or if this existed back then. But there used to be this like public access show in New England called Phantom Gourmet and it was like a big deal if Phantom Gourmet came to your like local restaurant and they would like broadcast it on the PBS affiliate, and like if you had the Phantom Gourmet sticker, it was like a big deal. This sounds like it's so similar, yeah, right, And like I wonder if they were if if they were hipped to Phantom Gourmet, because I don't know. I don't know if it was like one person though mystery. I find it interesting that he is like a t V food critic, because usually food critics, like, they like, don't want their faces to be known, so the restaurants like don't know when they go in, right, But he's like just on TV. Yeah, the phantom gourmet wasn't a purse so that was the whole point is you didn't know who like it says the phantom pays his own way and dines under a disguise. You like, it's like banks He's the Banksy of New England feed critics. Yes, yes, yes, yes, amazing. Okay. So then Daisy has dinner with Charlie's rich family who you know, they're they're snooty and young Matt Damon is there and they say some disparaging things about people from a lower class, about Portuguese people. Charlie yells at them, but Daisy is like, oh, you're clearly just dating me, you know, a poor towny to get back at your family, and she storms off and so every things I'm mess. But then the restaurant critic, who I forget, like what name he goes by in the movie. It almost like as soon as you said Phantom Gourmet, I'm like, it wasn't that, but it was like basically the same thing. But he gives his review on television, his face exposed to the whole world, and he's like, this pizza from Mystic Pizza. It's the best pizza I've ever had. So everyone's all excited. The business is going to do great. Joe Joe finally marries Bill. We see the wedding reception, Charlie comes to apologize to Daisy, they make up, and then the movie ends with the three women being like, hmm, I wonder what Leanna puts in her pizza. And that's the end. And then they look up at the stop the stars, and then a corny song plays and you're like, friendship, sisterhood. This movie has so much saxophone in it, very saxophone heavy film. I don't know what that song is at the end, but it was making me laugh. It was like friends always gone friends and sure, Sure, and then in the credits you see like sponsored by big Saxophone. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss and we're back. So the first thing I wanted to talk about was um the fact I mean I tried to do some research to find out if there were any actors of Portuguese descent in this movie at all. It was a challenge. I couldn't. I couldn't find out everyone. Definitely not Julia Roberts or Annabeth Gish that I could tell. I don't did anyone have any Lucky because for a movie that you know, is talking about, you know, people of Portuguese descent quite a bit, it seems like there was really no representation whatsoever in an actual way. Um. Yeah, I'd imagine that maybe some of the like very tertiary characters who you like see speaking or singing in Portuguese. But I feel like as as far as the main cast, yeah, it didn't seem to be the case, right, which I mean, obviously it sucks. And also the there is like a large Portuguese American community in Connecticut and in areas of New England, mostly Rhode Island, but like there there is a huge Portuguese American culture in New England, and so I thought it was cool that it was spotlighted. But then it's like, but it's like, you know, an empty gesture to to an extent when there's no actual representation of it, and also like spotlighted with inaccuracies. I like saw Annabeth Gish was like did a video where she was like setting the record straight with a Portuguese guy and he was just like here's yeah. He was like, here's a few things that he was from Portugal. He was like, these things from the movie are not accurate, Like Portugal is not into pizza at all, Like that's just not a thing. And like their last name, their last name, they pronounced it like a rougeo and they make like a big deal out of that in the movie, like the pronunciation of their name, but it's actually like not He's like, that's just not a name in Portuguese. And he's like it's a rougeo is a name, but that's like a different word. But so I don't know, it just seems like there could have been a little more like R and D the the background stuff, especially because it was like filmed in an area where there was a Portuguese America, like it could it couldn't have been an easier task, right, So that was that was frustrating. I thank you for Well, we'll find in that video and link it and the description because I'm like, wow, they really they made Annabeth based the music. It literally seems like Annabeth Gish was on a movie set with a Portuguese guy and she talked to him enough to learn some stuff from him, and she was like, let's make this quick video. And it's like a two minute video of him just like listing these things and she's like, okay, cool, nice, So yeah, okay, that's that's good to know. Yeah, if we have any Portuguese American listeners or just Portuguese listeners, um, let us know your thoughts on. One of my best friends is have Portuguese and I actually have been to Portugal with her, but I mean, I think she loves this movie. So it seems like because I was looking for there, there wasn't much written about it, even though it was I don't know. I was looking to see if anyone that ever, you know, like written about how Portuguese culture is represented here, but everyone's just like I love the movie. Yeah. Yeah. My friend Nicki, both of her parents are Portuguese American who live in New England, and I asked Nikki about how her family feels about this movie and she was like, my mom loves Mystic Pizza, so loves it. Everyone loves it. I don't know, I mean in general, I just was like, this is a very nineteen eighties movie thing to do absolutely to like make a huge I mean a huge deal of like look at these Portuguese American characters but then not cast anyone of Portuguese descent and get apparently every fact wrong. Yes, But but that said, I thought that, um, like one of the things I really liked about this movie was it's like willingness to explore class issues in uh really like direct way, because we talked about this with like rom Com or even just like coming of age movies in general all the time, where it's like so often it's just like rich people, Like it's just like there's gonna be a mansion party. No one's her worrying about, Like we talked about in that To All the Boys I Love before episode of how like there's a whole movie in that series about getting ready for college and no one is worried about how they're going to pay for it. And I really appreciated and was pleasantly surprised by, like how willing to engage with class issues this movie was. Yeah, it comes up in in a couple of different kind of scenarios to one where you know, Cat is saving up money. She's working what appears to be three or four different jobs to save up to go to Yale, and she has like a half scholarship, and she you know, still needs to earn all of this money to be able to pay for tuition, and you know how that's kind of like a constant struggle for her. And then with Daisy dating Charlie, this you know, rich yuppie kid who has just so many different cars at his disposal, all of them you know, like luxury vehicles. He lives in this ancient all this stuff, and how it like, you know, creates this rift in their relationship, especially when she realizes that he, you know, he's kind of dating her as an act of rebellion against his family. And yeah, so I thought that was all pretty interesting. I really liked it. Yeah, I mean especially I I really really really love Cat, so I just like, I don't know, I love her so much, Like I had a very similar situation to her when I was her age, and I was like, you you can do it. You're gonna be in asterronomer and do all this stuff. But with the with the Charlie Daisy relationship, I've never seen something like that, but that is like a thing that happens in cities or communities with like large wealth gaps of like you know, if there are young couples that it's like you have to go to their house and be like I'm going to act like I'm not poor and see if that works. And like another just like, oh, like this is amazing for where it is like pretty clear that Charlie to an extent is like bringing her over to get a rise out of his dad, and she calls him out on it right away and she's just like, no, you humiliated me to like because of your because of your daddy issues, like leave me out of it. Like I just yeah, I thought that that was like incredibly cool and I've never seen a situation like that actually like play out on screen and have like the person from the lower class like get the final word in in a way that was really satisfying and cool. And yeah, I just loved it. I love that she says when they're like fighting in the driveway, and I love that she's just like, you're not even good enough for me, like because it was kind of it was kind of like inherently like oh, he's the rich one, he has the car, like whatever. And then she like gets a ride home with her friend who's the maid at their house, and she's just like, give me a ride, Like I love I love how she actually all these women, like I guess Cat maybe less in a less like dramatic way, but like have really powerful moments where they're like screaming at men and like it's very sad, Like I love like when um Bill puts a nympho on his boat and he's kind of like embarrassing her in front of the entire town, Like I love that Jojo just straight up like screams at him, and she's just like you can't force me to do anything I'm not ready to do, and like this is so not okay. And like she says like everything that I would imagine you would be afraid or like you would think of later you'd be like, oh I should have said that, but like she says all of it and it's so awesome, and like her friends are right there with her and like yeah, oh my god. Yeah, She's like I don't have to marry an asshole. It's the eighties. Oh my god, Like it's that whole like performance was so good and like too, and I love that she gets like a standing ovation from the tourists, right, so bizarre, but it I really liked it. Also just feels like such a new England thing for all these like all these people to be like projecting at each other at like the speed of light, where like Daisy projects onto Cat, Cat projects onto Daisy, every like the mom projects onto everybody. Uh like just everyone is like very loudly not dealing with their problems, which I was like, wow, totally, that's wow, that's so real. I love that Jojo. One of her main traits is that she just fully carries on conversations fully by herself and everyone else around her, just like silently, Like she'll just be like, thank you guys so much for everything you've said, but she's the only one talking conversation and just like goes on a full tangent. Those scenes are so funny, Yeah, the one especially where she's, uh, she has just been broken up with by Bill, but she comes in acting like she was the one who broke up with him, and then she just goes on this long soliloquy and the whole time she's just like, Wow, I'm so glad my friends are here supporting me and agreeing with me and validating me, and meanwhile they've said not a word. She also like looky, like it's like and Leona, you're going to give you the business one day, right, And Lena is like, um, sure, They're all being held hostage by her feelings. I love that like that happens it Like it's the funniest and like I think, like the best when it happens with Jojo. But I like that that happens at like multiple different points in this movie where everyone's got like their own ship going on, but then when someone else's like problem comes into the like they put their own ship aside and they show up for each other like every single time. Like I I liked that moment where Cat is like devastated. She feels so like used by Tim and she's like sucking up at work and leaving like raw pizzas on tables and stuff. But then when she realizes like the Phantom Gourmet is there, she like snaps into it. She's like, Okay, I'll deal with my ship later, like right, now this is Leone's moment and like just those quick I don't know, you're just like, oh, these women know each other so well and they care about each other so much that they can just like be so like raw nerves with each other, but then also always know like when they need to show up for each other. I love it. Yeah, Like Daisy does that too with Cats, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, when she's like, you know, Cat comes home, she's been wearing Daisy's boots, and Daisies like, quit wearing my nice boots and quit using my comb your scuzzy hairs in it. And then Daisy realizes that Cat is devastated and then shuts off any like anger and resentment that she was feeling towards Cat, and it's just like I'm here for you, like cry on my shoulder, whatever you need to do. Yeah, it was. It was a really nice moment. I love, like for me. The thing about this movie is it's a story about like female friendship, but also you know, each of these three women has a major storyline that revolves around a man, which just feels very typical and expected of this type of movie. I wish it maybe had been more about the friendship, or that we had seen more scenes of the three women together. I wish there were just more movies that were actually about female friendship and don't get bogged down in these like subplots about men. We had that same issue with um was It Fried Green tomat Us? There was like another there was another movie from this like era where it like markets itself as being all about female friendship, but then it actually is about relationships. Yeah. A big one for me was waiting to exhale oh yes, yes, yes, yeah, where it's like, oh wow, all these amazing women are going to be talking to each other the whole movie, and then you're like, oh wait, actually there's like three scenes of that. Yeah, it's about husbands, right, and most of the scenes are them helping each other deal with like men's bullshit, right right, which is pretty true of this movie as well. That was like I don't know, like I didn't hate that they had love interest, Like, okay, that's the convention of the genre, but it did like at some point, especially because I absolutely hated Charlie so much, and I know that like his storyline was like helped you explore these class issues, but I just couldn't stand them. There's too much of him. He's such a little weener, he really is. I wish there were just more movie yeh. Bottom line, I wish there were more movies that not only appear to be about female friendship but are kind of more exclusively about that. That being said, though, I'd still I think it would have been a much easier and more kind of predictable choice for you to get three very kind of basic, like standard rom comie type storylines that don't explore anything meaningful, but with at least with the three romantic subplots we get, you know, like we said, one of them deals pretty heavily with class. One of them deals with a woman debating about whether or not commitment and like marriage is something she wants, which like that was I think I love Jojo so much because I related so hard to her being like I'm afraid of commitment. I think I can do it in the future, but I don't want it right now. And you are rushing me and it feels like your bill, You're forcing me into something I'm not ready for. And I like this character too that like you get a totally like does an unusual depiction of like male sexuality too. Yeah, right, And I also really liked that after she passes out and like ditches their wedding. Like I mean, not to give him too much credit, but just the fact that like his characters like and I know that they still fight and stuff, but just the fact that they can even reconcile is like more impressive communication than most characters in TV or film ever are able to accomplish. Like if that was on Friends, it would just be like and then I never saw her again and he would disappear from her wedding. Yeah, Like I like that he still shows up and he deals with being humiliated in the town and like, yeah, and you know, he has perhaps some toxic habits where he was like about to punch a guy who was like mocking him and for instance putting nympho on the side of his that was maybe he wasn't ideal, but at the same time, yeah, I think there was like a display of masculinity with his character that I think we don't often see, especially for so many movies are guilty of this thing I hate, where they depict like working class people, specifically working class men, just in a very particular way of just like steeped in toxic masculinity because they are working class, where we know that, you know, people of any men of any class can be steeped in toxic masculinity. But I feel like it's rare to see a working class man be a little gentler or be someone who like is a little bit more in touch with his feelings and who like really strongly cares about commitment and things like that. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it inverts the like church girl trope that we see used pretty frequently in like but it's not I don't know, like it it is. Even that is like reductive in the way it's usually presented, but with him, it's like, oh no, he like takes his religion very seriously and you can feel however you want to feel about that, but it's like it's important to him, and I don't know, like watching them navigate that relationship was interesting, Like it was I wasn't, Like I don't know I was, I wasn't. It's rare to find a relationship in the eighties that I'm not actively rooting against. Like, I still feel like, you know, he should have led her way a little longer, you know, like I would because in that amazing like monologue that she gives, she's just like saying, I don't know, like it it's such a complex thing that is also very normal of like I do want to get married, and I do care about this person, but I have other things I wanted to do first, and like I don't know if we're going to be able to compromise to a point where we can both be happy, and like it was like interesting as I was watching, because I'm like, oh, that's that's a problem that I have known many people to have, but you never really see it presented that way as just like a fact of life that could be really like frustrating and like tortuous for you personally. Because it's not like he's an evil bad guy, like he's kind of an assphot but he lives in Connecticut, so that's kind of wow. Shots fire Massachusetts head Well. It's also interesting that they all kind of have different trajectories. Like with Cat, it's like a foregone conclusion that she is leaving Mystic and that she's bound for like it's really presented it's like she's bound for better things, like her mom is just like everyone, my daughter is going to Yale like she's she's leaving and like and they talk about that, they talk about mystic like this, like you know, bump fuck town that like everyone needs to get out of. But like you do get the sense that like She's might not be okay with it, but Jojo is like kind of gonna stay there because she's like she's really young and she's like met her you know, person, and doesn't know how to feel about that, and like maybe doesn't have the way out that like Cat has. Right. Yeah, I don't know. I definitely coming from like a really small town, I mean I could see how scary it would be to like look down the barrel of that life and just be like, wow, Um, how am I supposed to be excited about this? Sure? I do wonder. I mean, of of all the characters, I want to know where Jojo would be ten years later. I wonder, like I wonder if that's the sort of like maybe they move, Maybe she does end up inheriting the pizza place, who knows what happens. Yeah, she's she's like such a it would have been so easy to funk up that character. Um, but she does kind of have this rich into your life. I just wish we knew a little more. I wish I do, wish we you a little more about her outside of like she is a friend and she is going to be a wife question mark. But what you do get there is pretty complex. Yeah. For me, I found myself a little disappointed at the end when it's revealed that she and Bill do get married so soon after she had been like, yeah, I want to wait a while, you know, and the same way. And it's like the movie clearly wants you to not feel that way, right, you're supposed to be like because at the very least, I like this little, you know, speech that she gives when she's like in the cap of the truck with Bill, and she's like, Okay, I got to maintain my identity. I understand about commitment, and I love you, but you have to know where I stand about this. You know, I want to be my own person. Absolutely nothing has changed even though we've gotten married dot dot dot except my name. So I'm glad that she, you know, is making her needs own about wanting to maintain her identity and you know, not getting lost and being a his wife kind of thing. But it just was very soon after Its great, Yeah, and and I just I wish that it. I don't know if it was just because like, well, a movie starring women has to end in a wedding. I don't think Hollywood can resist ever, Like it's just it's it's just like too good. They just can't say no, mostly like I have to. I do appreciate that they reused the dresses. I'm like, Okay, that is a working class wedding, thank you, because if they had had all new dresses, I'm like they dropped the ball. But I hated to see those dresses again. Actually, one of the things I love about this movie, just speaking of the dresses, is just like I love that this movie is so not like disnified at all. It's just like everyone looks kind of like not too much makeup, and like like obviously Julia's hair looks amazing, and I'm sure that's where like ninety percent of the hair budget went. But I just I love that this movie is not like super glossy. I just I really appreciate that it looks kind of like a little raggedy, like the real It looks kind of real, and I love that about it. Right, it would feel really inauthentic if it hadn't been that way, you know, because if it's you know, it's this story about these working class women, but if they're like all dolled up in expensive designer clothes and their hair and makeup looks like it was done by a personal stylist, Like that's usually not how that works, right, But they still look good and like trendy too, because I also like don't like when it goes too far the other way, and the implication is like working class people look like shit and you're like, like, that's not the casey, But I yeah, like the details that they added in with the wardrobe, like we're like Julia Roberts. I mean, first of all, like people wear the same outfit more than once in this movie, which is like makes sense, that's how clothes work, but you never see that in movies. And and the like little detail that she like got this expensive dress but she's like, but I'm not taking the tags off and I'm going to return it. You're like, yeah, that, like that's another really good detail. And ah yeah, this is a really well written movie. I one thing I wanted to I I was hoping that there would be like an oral history piece about this movie. I couldn't find one, but I did think it was interesting. I couldn't find the reason why. But this movie, the story is by Amy Holden Jones, who has done a bunch of work. Uh she's She's also done the Beethoven movie with the Dog that's the most should cover it, excellent film. She also this in back to back. She did Beethoven and Indecent Proposals, so she's got range. She's killing it. But she, you know, came up with the story true um going to Mystic Connecticut and just I don't know. I think she was just like cruising through and was like, hey, what if I wrote a movie, which probably explains how it wasn't totally research very well. But she was. She was supposed to be, uh the director of the movie, but then at the last second she was not the director of the movie, which is frustrating because she had I mean, she had had three directing credits prior to this, three future credits and then instead it was given to a director named Donald Petrie and it was his debut, So it was like this movie was almost directed by an experienced director and then was instead given to a guy who had never directed a movie before, which is just like, okay, so Jamie, did you say you didn't find the reason why? Because I did find the reason why. Oh I didn't know. No, what's the reason? Okay, because I was scandalized. Okay, So Amy Jones, yeah, seems amazing. Um. She out the script, shopped it around Hollywood and like no one wanted it, and then eventually it was optioned by Samuel Goldwyn and so he he like optioned it with her attached to direct it. But then because like women were really not allowed to direct at that time or like it was very uncommon. Like he was just like, I'm not comfortable working with the woman director. And she was like, I mean I might be getting details wrong, but the gist of it is like she was like, okay, well, I want the rights back. She loved that movie and still calls it like her favorite thing she's done and so and so, um she wanted it back and he and this fucker was like, um, I actually have the rights until for the rest of your life, like I owned the rights like until you die. And so it went into court. So Amy Jones had to fight with like I think with the Writer's Guild and there was like a legal battle, but because he was saying that he had life rights and that she had said something verbally or something that had like given him the impression that he just had the rights to Mystic Pizza for the rest of her life, and then he wanted to like or like oh no. This was when they were shopping around Hollywood. People were like, we'll make it if you change them all to men, like if you make all these characters, men will make it, and okay, and so then so she was I saw some quote where she was like, well, I learned like never to get in illegal battle with a multimillionaire because you'll just lose no matter even if you win, you lose because they drained you join your finances. So I think she won. So that it was decided that like, okay, you're like license to make this movie expires at this time or whatever. And so as the time was approaching, she said, like Samuel Goldwyn was like freaking out and trying. He's like she said, he hired like every writer in the world to try to like fix this movie, fix it, okay, because they yeah, they are four credited writers on this movie. Yeah, So I think he had a lot of people working on it, and then he finally hired these two writers who had worked with Amy Jones. And when they got on the script, how they revised it was getting rid of everything that had been changed and brought it back to Amy Jones's original script. So what we ended up with in Mystic Pizza is actually Amy Jones is like original script, which I think is why it's good. And I'm sorry, Daniel Pietri or whatever your name is, Like, I don't think that it's you that made this movie great. I think it's Amy Jones. And like she said that it was a well known story in Hollywood and that she got many many writing jobs from Mystic Pizza and that like everyone knew kind of like what happened, and like that it was really her film. Holy thank you so much for I I did not find that even remotely. And it's like that sounds like absolute torture and it is also like not surprising at all. I's like we have at this point. I mean, we've covered so many stories where that's the case. That was like, that was like the story of the production of Brave, that was the story. It's just like where a woman was kicked off and yeah, and then it was given to a man in the leventh hour and there was a legal battle and just all this garbage that and and then bringing back most of the original plot points that had originally been there. Like god, well, shout out to Amy Jones. Serious, holy shit, I'm glad that we that we know to come on the show, Amy Jones. She I just followed her on Twitter. She's out there. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion. And we're back. Let's talk about Kat a little bit. We haven't talked about her too much. I love her so much. I so her story, her like romantic storyline is the worst one and yet very relatable. Yes, I was like, but I feel like at least it's aware of that where I I know that there are so many like predatory storylines that are like that end up being like and it was love the whole time, and I guess things just didn't work out for them. But this, unfortunately, these types of abuses of power do happen. Like Cat is like, she's a kid, she's very I don't know how if she's a legal adult. Uncle. I wish we had known that, because you know, she's about to go to college, which would imply that she recently graduated from high school. So she's like eighteen. But also we see her at a bar, so is she twenty one? Like did she wait a few years before applying? Might just be a towny bar thing. Yeah, so I don't we don't know how old she is. I mean it's regard. I mean, it's an abuse of power no matter if it's Yeah, she she's a teenager and it's her boss who's praying on her. I just it's so it makes me so mad because like that ship does happen, And I at least thought it was like well written that, Like cat, I don't know, like I was in situations like that as a teenager where she's like inexperienced, she's shy, she's a people pleaser, and she doesn't, you know, necessarily know how to really assert herself in those situations. And she is you know, attracted to him, but it doesn't make it less of an abuse of power for him to take advantage of that. And likely that all felt pretty well. I was. I kept like gritting my teeth to be like, please don't end up telling me this is okay to happen and but I thought it was like a pretty well written storyline, all the way down to his being a fucking coward and trying to pay her off, Like it just all felt like very like, unfortunately realistic. The other thing I thought was effect of is that and this is something we talked about quite a bit where there tends to be villains or like predator characters in movies that are so cartoonishly evil that no one could see themselves reflected back in that person. But because he's like, on the surface, seems like a nice guy, he's a good father, you know, you're you kind of get lured into this idea that, oh, he's going to be he's nice, he's fine, and then when he abuses his power and hurts her and doesn't hold himself accountable for anything he's done, and then we realize just what a dogshit person he is. I thought that was well handled in terms of, like, under other circumstances, he probably seems like a nice guy, but in such a way that like people could actually look at him and be like, oh, no, I've done that before, Like that's this person is familiar to me kind of thing. So yeah, I found cat like, even though you know, I love I think Jojo is my favorite character because I'm just like charmed by her. But Cat is the character that I definitely definitely relate to the most, and I think for me watching it when I was her age, it was just like very relatable and like kind of cathartic to like see someone who was like war like thick sweaters and like and had no sense of her I mean, I think she's she's obviously like growing up in the course of the movie, but she her sister Daisy is like this like incredibly like vivacious, like sexual being, and Cat is I just remember being that age and it just felt like very very difficult calculus for me to even imagine like kissing someone or something. So I feel like her her being drawn to this older guy who's showing her attention, Like I just feel like I could totally imagine how that would to someone who was like so inexperienced and like looking to kind of prove yourself or like, you know, everyone in the movie is always saying like, oh, Cat has no time for boys, like she's going off to Yale, and like it's kind of like when everyone points one thing out about you you want them to see the other side too, Like Kat doesn't need to be told that she's smart. Everyone tells her that she needs to be told she's beautiful or like she's sexy or whatever. So this guy comes along and he like you know, looks at her with his like yale red hair, like he's like weirdly buff architect man. Like I just think that she's he's he's getting her exactly where she's vulnerable and and he's so he's so there's no excuse for his behavior in this movie, like I was imagining, like Jamie you kind of pointed out earlier, like the weird cuts where we don't see, like we don't see that they sleep together. It's just kind of assumed, and we don't see them setting up their date when they do sleep together. It just they just show up there. And I was imagining when I was watching it, like imagining, so at one point, like Cat and this like thirty year old guy like playing their date and like arrange for Cat's friend to babysit his daughter. And that's just so explicit. So it's not like it came over him in the moment. It's explicit, and he knew, like calculated yeah, pre meditated this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hate it so much, But I also I totally agree with what you're saying, how about how he does like target her vulnerability and that I don't know, like it kind of expands into how Cat and Daisy relate to each other, where it seems like they you know it. One storyline I wish was explored more in this movie was their relationship with their mom, because it's so like in like flashes and like, can we cut out some of the like love interest stuff and like focus on this mom relationship a little more because she really only has one scene with each daughter, and I would have liked to see all three of them together. But it does seem like, you know, it's it's like Cat feels this pressure to succeed or she'll disappoint her mother, or she'll never move out of Mystic, which she clearly wants to do, and like, you know what her dream is. I like that you see her at all these different jobs and it's not just like a joke that she's like, oh she works a lot. It's like you see it and you see her like struggle with it, and and of course like it's it's you know It's like when that is your life, you know, it's in all your valued for is your mind. It's like you want, I don't know, like a more whole experience in in in many cases, right, And I get like I get why Cat bugs Daisy for being so prized for her mind, which she doesn't even totally want. It's just how people view her. And and I get how Kat is. I don't know. It just reminded me so much of like my older cousin and where I was just like she's so cool and like everyone loves her, and I I can't talk to people, like it's so frustrating, and you like hold it against someone you love in this way that is like kind of like kind of immature. And also just like I'm repressing my feelings and I'm just like frustrated that I can't present that way to the world because it looks so appealing and it's like it just feels so sister Lee, It's just good. Yeah. And I love also how Jojo is friends, like because I have I have like brothers that are really close in age, so we like share friends, but these two like really share friends, Like like Jojo is equally friends with Daisy and Cat and will like and by them even when they're fighting, and like I just I like, I liked when when that happens, and like, yeah, it showed that they're like this kind of functional trifecta. Yeah, and then like we were saying, how they do show up for each other, they provide support to each other when needed, like to go back to this predatory relationship that Cat has with Tim, Like there was a little bit that again felt realistic, although I think it would have been like Daisy probably would have handled this differently were this to be happening in like, but she it's clear that she's like looking out for her sister, but it's also kind of happening under this guy's of like judging her almost like oh, you know how typical that the babysitter is like having sex with the dad kind of thing and like almost passing like judgment and shame upon her. But when it comes down to it, Daisy is like, whatever you need, I'm here for you. Similarly jojo in like the car, right, She's just like, yeah, my guys, Bill sucks, but nothing compared to this piece of ship we just saw, Like that scene, that scene in the car is so good. It's great. Yeah, I I sort of, I mean, I guess I sort of like they do say very cruel things to each other, um, and you know, I guess in a perfect world, like having them be like, I am sorry that I said that cruel thing to you. It just felt so sister to me that I'm like, I don't you know, or just like sibling relationships in general, where you just say something like the meanest thing you can think of in the moment, and then like twenty minutes later you're like, I'm crying. I need you to hug me. Like it's just so chaotic, especially because they're so young. And Yeah, the sibling relationship that I found completely unrelatable was Charlie Windsor and his sister who Daisy miss stakes for his girlfriend wraps his arm. You're like like laughing and they're like linked arms and she's very demure and like, I'm just like what you guys would call each other's eyes out, like I have two brothers, Like it's not like that. And I was like, is that a rich person thing? Like what this fuck? I was Also I was like, was that like just like plot writing or how rich siblings interact. They might like not know each other because their rooms are so far apart in their mansion, like always met a few times in the halls, but he seems nice speaking to those the that family, I mean, going back to that family really quick. There's just one other thing I wanted to hit on with that scene, Like that is like, uh, you know where Daisy goes over to the house and the rich people are really rich peopling out. Um. Another thing that happens in that scene that I thought was just like really, I don't know, like the attention to detail. It's a little melodramatic, it's a little over the top, but like so it is a whole movie, so whatever. Uh. But when when they realized that Daisy is a waitress, and it's like that very bizarre like rich person calculus happens where they're like, oh, that's not gross at all. We don't think that's gross. In fact, that's noble, and we don't think you're discussing at all. That's really cool And you're like, oh no, that that just like I don't know, that felt very real. And then also they're rich people just slipping and saying something completely like classist and like just like they say something just outright cruel about Portuguese and you're like, that's a classic rich people moment. That just felt like it's a little over the top, but like not that over at the top of like, I don't know, rich people at dinner terrifying to me. And then like it's like I guess even though he does it for probably his own reasons, Like Charlie's telling them off is like nice kind of until he like pulls the tablecloth and like ruins their entire dinner, whips Matt Damon's lobster. Yeah, he kind of Like I feel like he could have like calmly walked away after giving them a piece of his mind, and it could have been like, Wow, he's really given us something to think about. But then he like throws like a tantrum, and yeah, I can't hate Charlie. I can't stand him. He's such a yeah, like I do, I don't know. I I I feel like, no matter what, he and Daisy are not long for this world in terms of like is this relationship going to go to the distance. Definitely not. I mean, it honestly reminded me of Megan and Harry, Like it's like, oh, you're super racist like rich family that, like you know, I don't know if you guys watched like the Oprah interview, but like Harry like being like, oh, yeah, I like learned, I've I've learned a lot from her and I and I I can totally see that this is like you kind of like get that, like, Okay, this guy is like choosing her over his like idiot family and taking the righteous path or whatever, and like I just don't Yeah, it's it. I think him speaking out. I was like, oh, that's a little bit of like Harry like he's not going to stand for this. But then I don't think he's a he's the guy for for Daisy. I think Daisy deserves a lot better because she's right. He is making it too much about him, like and I don't think it feel like he really rectified that, Like I'm glad she like ripped him a new one and was like no, fuck you. But then he just kind of shows up. He's like I'm sorry, and it's like but no, you know what, Yeah, he doesn't even say sorry. He says so he says, I owe you an apology, and then she didn't HyET I didn't even register that I do. He never gives a lot, and he doesn't actually say I'm sorry, here's what I did and I'm sorry for it. Yeah. Oh no, I didn't even realize. Yeah, it's one of the worst apology. I mean it's not he just as I owe you one. And then she it's sad because she doesn't require him to give it, like she Yeah. I wish she had put her foot down and been like, Okay, I'm waiting for your apology that you have not yet delivered to me, which would be so daisy too to be like, okay, make it good. Go. Like I do think that we should keep in mind that like the thing that these women all have in common is like how horny they are, and like they're just like varying degrees of like absolutely horny. And I think that like that's at least to be factored into the ways that they settle, you know. Yeah, they're just like I just have to get that dick and like I'll marry him. I I just have to have it, like gosh, yeah, I know it. Maybe so I don't know. I kind of I wish I had asked my mom what because I feel like she probably has seen this movie, but like, yeah, I don't know. It's it's so bizarre to think of now, like the eighties in that regard, like truly was a different time where it was like people I mean not to say that people are settling now. It still happens to this day, but settling culture was was like way different in the late eighties. It was it is more I feel I feel like it was more often than not. Oh one factory that I just wanted to bring up while we're on the topic of settling. Um Jojo the the actor that played Jojo. I guess it was originally written that her character was pregnant, and the actor insisted that they removed that plot point, And I thought that was so cool that she stood up for that because it would be a really different movie and her character. I just think it's like, I love that she doesn't want to get married because she just doesn't want to lose the freedom of her life. And I think that I just I like that she Yeah, she enables the character to have that. Yeah, I adore Jojo. Jamie. I think you mentioned this, but I would have liked to see more interaction between Daisy and Kat's mom and them, and then also we get next to nothing with Jojoe and her family is particularly her mother. I think there's like not even anything, but her dad's just like get out of here a bit. Yeah, classic my daughter, and cut to the next scene. But we do meet Daisy and Kat's mother, but we only get very small snippets of her, although there was one scene that I did find interesting where Daisy and her mom are arguing and it's clear that Daisy knows that her mother is disappointed in her, and she resents that but she's like not gonna stop living her life the way she wants to, but also wants her mother to like accept that instead of like breaking out their relationship and yeah, and she said something to the effect of like, yeah, you're disappointed in me. I swear I am stupid, I'm a slut, And then her mom's just like, no, I just want you to make something of yourself. And she's like, well, I'm not gonna go to Yale and she's like and her mom's like I'm not expecting that, like, just you know, do something, And I just I wish there had been I guess just like more scenes like that are more context behind their entire relationship because or even like another scene with the mom after that, because that's the last thing she says. She's just like I'm concerned about you, and then you're like yeah, and then what you know, like nothing that felt like, I mean not to bring up screenwriting something that um, I do have a master's degree in which I of course would hate to bring up. But that's the type of thing where you need like a one to three story beat to show that arc almost where something in the beginning where we see the nature of their relationship more clearly than something in the middle, where you know, the conflict is kind of like at its highest point, and then a third beat towards the end where we get some kind of like resolution or like under standing between them or something like that. But instead we just kind of get that one in the middle, and there's not enough context before or after. I kind of wonder if that is the sort of thing, because now, especially with the context you give us, Hallie that this movie was so thoroughly rewritten, if that was something that was originally more present in the movie that went away, because it does like it is really like intentionally set up, and then it just kind of goes away then comes back, you know, like just before the end, and then yeah, like that like her, the mom's journey has never made totally clear, and then it's also never resolved. You get the sense that the mom has a lot of how I kind of saw it was like she has a lot of pain and sees herself in Daisy and it's like that's what scares her. She's like, oh yeah, I like how do you think I wound up like a single mom here? Like I don't know, it's there's really like the like option available to I guess, like Daisy and Jojo seem to like hover over them like just like becoming their parents, and like Jojo like I don't know if you guys caught this, like right at the end. I had to rewind to watch it twice. They don't show you, as you mentioned, Kaitlin, Like they don't actually introduce you to JoJo's mom or anything. But like earlier in the movie, she like says, like honestly like a fat phobic comment about she's just like I don't want to like grow up and just like have a bunch of kids and get fat and drink a bunch of beer and like and just like loose, you know, like that's like her nightmare, you know. And then later, like right before the final scene where they're all on the balcony, you just see there's no dialogue in a really quick scene of Jojo sitting down between like all these like Portuguese women who are like eating huge slices of cake and like guzzling beer and they're like having a great time, and Jojo like sits down with them and like joins them, and like she she doesn't look sad or anything. She just looks like, okay, like this is this is where I am. It's like kind of sweet. Actually I didn't pick up on that. That's really nice, and I thought that was interesting. I mean, who doesn't want a slice of cake and beer? That sounds great? And I went to do that right now. Yeah, yeah, I the mom stuff is. And I also think it's like very like kind of like huh, like how is there not a scene with the three of them? How is there not a dinner scene at their has Like it just seems like something that I'm like in my head, I'm like that had to have existed in some version of this movie, because otherwise that is like so I don't know, and I and I agree with what you're both saying to that it's like it ends up kind of coming off half baked because the mom is in this so little but that you know, cycle of poverty dynamic of like you have to make something of yourself and like you have to get out of here, and like or you're gonna, like you're saying, helly, like you're gonna end up in the same cycle that I'm in and I want my children to have better than what I had, and like that is all like a very normal dynamic, but it just feels like it's kind of half baked in a way that the mom ends up coming off pretty like mean, which is which you know could also be true. It seems like it is true to an extent, but yeah, it just felt like not the setup was there, but then it just wasn't fully explored. And also it's like you want that moment where like the mom is like I'm sorry and like I accept you however you want to be. And also, I mean, I guess it's the eighties. I don't know what people are thinking about then, but I'm like daisies like twenty like can we not like tell her to get your ship together, like she's funny. She's like, no one's going to have their ship together at that time. I do think that the scene, the scene you just described where like the mom you that story the mom storyline up, like that should have been where the wedding is, like instead of the wedding, we should have had that conversation and like I don't know, they could go on a road trip or something, right, because it's like that affects that affects Cat as well, where like Cat clearly has this like I mean, she does have a dream to like be a woman in stamp. She wants to do all this stuff, but also it's a clear that she's under a lot of you know, she she's a people pleaser. She wants to make her mom happy. She wants to like she wants to succeed for herself, but she also wants to succeed to prove something and like please her mom and her family. And like that is also like whether the mom intends to be putting too much pressure on her kid or not, Like that is what happens in the situations. I just I don't know, which is why I liked that we at least and I was you know, again, I wish we got a little more with her, but I do like that, um Leona is present as kind of this surrogate mother who Daisy and Cat can actually talk to and actually feel like they can communicate. There like that that felt like a cool touch. And that beat at the end where Leone is like, you're my daughters and gives her money to for Yale, You're just like, that's so nice. I really I wish we got more of with leon It, but I like her character. It's really cool. Like you know, she's like she is like this matriarch figure. She's very like firm on what how she wants her business to run. She has like this arc of like, I don't care what people say about my restaurant, but then she's like, but actually, obviously I do, because that's how restaurants work, and that's her arc. I love that her husband is I don't know if he has a name, and he's just washing dishes the entire movie. Yeah, it just is in charge of him. Yeah, to the point where I'm like, is that her husband? We know about this man that I'm like that could just be an employee of hers. I didn't figure it out until the very end when he when she started saying like we and like you are like a daughter to us, I'm like, well, I guess she is married to that guy. Yeah. I think that Leona's perspective on the town is kind of where maybe Jojo ends up, where like because Daisy is like disparaging mystic, She's like I just gotta get out of this like stupid town and like I don't want have to work here anymore and whatever, and Leona is just like, well, we make the best pizza and like I just love that. She's like not really like offended by that. She's just like, no, it's great, Like I'm I make the best pizza. And like, I don't know, like a lot of the adults, like even if they are poor, like seemed to actually with the exception of Tim, who's like one of the rich characters, but um seemed to be enjoying their lives and have good community, like a nice community, and like they're pretty happy for sure. I like it, yeah, because it's like I don't know, like yeah, that that like tendency of any time the working class is portrayed as sort of like a you know, they're a lot of people opt for the tragedy porn and really harping on the negative aspects of poverty, of which there are so so many, and not to like underplay that, but it doesn't mean that you can't live a life with like joy and dignity and you know, an inner life, and yeah, like everyone in this movie has that. And also it's like being poor like that. I like that moment from Daisy two where she's like, yeah, being poor fucking sucks. I can admit that, but that doesn't mean that you can treat me this way, and like that's so great. That reminds me of my favorite line from the movie is when Daisy is looking in her fridge at her mom's house and it's just packed full of lobster and she was just like, fucking lot of lobster here, and then you cut you cut straight to like the fancy dinner where they're all eating the exact same lobster, and it's like, there they are. They're wealthy and lobster the a Rougeo family. Yes, oh goodness. One additional fuck Charlie moment. So this is after Daisy has just fucking smoked everyone at pool and everyone's like, oh my god, a woman can do a pool, which I did. I mean, I was just like watching Julie Roberts. That happened to Julia Roberts a lot in movies, because I think that happens with her at that time. She can fix the car, and everyone's like so after Charlie's all impressed, and he then proceeds to stalk her and find out where she lives and shows up at her house. Daisy's mom is like, I guess, like, who the funk are you? But whatever, And then Daisy comes home and her mom's like, you could have told me that you were going out for dinner or whatever, and Daisy is like, I didn't know. I was so basically, Charlie just like again, having stalked her, showed up. He's just like, yeah, I'm here to take out your daughter for dinner, like not even giving her the choice, not giving Daisy they chanced to say no, like, He's just like, we are doing this, Get in my Porsche. You He's so entitled. I hate this man so much. Yeah, he and Tim are both kind of predatory, and I feel like driving, I don't know, just like driving the Porsche parking it in front of her house, Like I feel like there is something really gross about him just being like I'm going to take you out and just like flaunting his wealth and like using his influence of that. Yeah, yeah, I wish that he didn't. It doesn't even seem inconceivable in the world of this movie that this could end by Julia Roberts being like, actually, fuck you, Like perfect perfect world, she would have said, actually you, because he's just he just sucks the whole time he did. He's not fun at one moment except unless he's good at sex, which I guess it seems like she enjoys having sex with them. But outside of that, I'm like, what is your point we have to talk about their sex scene and that wait in another haunted mansion, like both sisters all the powers off, both sisters fuck predatory men in haunted mansions at different points. Actually, I feel like around the semi point in the movie. But oh my god, I forgot about this. Yeah, Like the scene where Daisy like Daisy is taken by Charlie to his family's like off season like summer home or whatever, this ship where like it's dark, the electricity is shut off, so they like start a fire, and like there's like white sheets over all the furniture, so it really does seem like a haunted mansion. And then Daisy does such a wild move, which is that like he like he like looks away for a second and then he turns back and she's gone, and her like stiletto heel is like balanced on the edge of a table or something, and then she's like, Charlie, follow the breadgrounds and then then like he like somehow in the course of moments, Julia Roberts takes off all her clothes, navigates a darkened home that she's never been in before, and finds her way to like an upstairs bedroom, and then puts on Charlie's dad's shirt, which is like all of that is like, so like, how did she do that? She must have been running, She's got skills. I wish I had thought that through, because I was like, that is supernatural that she could do that. Yeah, my husband pointed that out when we watched it last night, because I mean, that didn't I don't think that had occurred to me either, and I've seen it so many times. It's just like wait a second. First of all, that's like a really really bold move, but like, just how did she do it with like the physics of it, Like the logistics don't quite add up. And then he's like, I'm gonna fuck you and my dad's shirt in my dad's bed. Yeah, she really is like enacting power of after power, Like yeah, I wish, I get, I just wish. I think for each of these three women, I would have liked to see a different resolution. My pitch for Daisy would be that she does not take Charlie back. He might come to apologize, maybe he even does apologize, but I think that she should be like, Nope, what's done is done. I don't know even why I dated you in the first place. Goodbye. My pitch for Jojo is that if she wants to stay with Bill, fine, but I wish she hadn't agreed to marry him so soon, especially after the entire movie is her being like I'm not ready yet and I won't be for a while. So for her to like marry him after all so soon, I was just like, well, that's inconsistent with everything we learned about Jojo. And then I would have liked for for Cat, maybe we like see her go off to college or like we see like one kind of final b where she's I don't know, just some something else because she just gets such a her to tape Tim's check back together and go to the bank. That's where I wanted to end, because she's like, I've had a change of heart. I don't care. Yes, I want her to dump a barrel of fish in Tim's car into his car. Yeah. Yeah, I think interesting things were explored with each of those romantic relationships, but I wish they had resolved differently in general. Yeah, definitely. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie that wasn't for me? Yeah? It does pass the Bechdel test because women are talking about pizza, they're talking about lobsters, they're talking about talking about the stars, astronomy, how they view each other, their their futures, their hopes, their dreams. They do talk about men a lot, because again, there is a lot of real estate in the story dedicated to their romantic subplots with men. So you know, lots of hetero people, lots of white people, and in its white people it's white people City, which you know might be representative of what mystic is actually like, I don't remember from when I went there in third grade or whatever. But yeah, you know it's it's pretty standard romantic drama ty type. Fair of this era, for sure, of this era especially so I guess as far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based on an examination of intersectional feminism as it applies to the movie, I think I would give this maybe a three, or maybe just shy of a three, maybe like a two point seven five kind of thing, or maybe even that's too generous. I panic every time I have to write a movie, do a three? Okay, I wanna I'm gonna go down just a bit to a two point seven five when I'm keeping my secret pizza recipe from you, and I'm going lower in the rating. You um, because while I like the relationships between the women, I wish they had just been given a little bit more focus, especially like even we don't even get that much between In fact, it was like maybe halfway through me watching the movie the first time that I really fully understand, I was like, are they all sisters? Are none of them sisters? Who is a sister to the other person? Like, I had a hard time like figuring out the dynamics of them exactly because I feel like just not quite enough as established about their character. I love when you're like they're all active like scissors who's actually sisters. But I think it speaks to maybe we don't spend enough time with them or like focused on their relationships with each other, because again, so much real estate is spent on different men who all suck. So like, I just want better for these these women. And yeah, as far as the resolutions for them, it just feels like, well, the movie has to end in a wedding because it's a movie with romance in it, so we gotta do that. I gotta check that box. And it's like, you don't though you don't have to do that. Yeah, yeah, so different different things like that, um make you want to give to two point seven five. I'll give one to Joe Joe because I love her. I'll give one to Leona, and I'll give my point seven five to like a hundred gallons of dead fish getting dumped into a Porsche, because I wish that would happen every day. Perfect. I'm gonna do a hard throbbing three. Yeah. I really enjoyed this movie. It certainly had it's issues. I wish that all the romantic plots, it ended differently, and I wish that there was more of a fuller picture with the mom I wish you knew. I just wish you knew a little more about the inner life of each main character outside of their relationships with men. And even even though I guess with with Cat and Um Daisy, you do have a pretty rich relationship that they have with each other as well. So I don't want to like negate that. Yeah, I I I don't know. I'm very inclined to be very nice to this movie because I like, I felt like bizarrely seen in it in a like a very specific way of just like really intense poor people in New England friendships. I was like, oh, yeah, like that, I know those, And like, I really like how class is presented pretty frankly in this movie. I like that the rich people are villains. I don't know, they're they're just especially Daisy does all these things that I wish I could have done when I was younger, and I just couldn't do Um in terms of just like advocating for herself and speaking up and like knowing when she's being used and seeing so and then a Cat, I feel like I saw how a little more of how I actually was, of like being very naive and not knowing how to advocate for yourself and wanting to, you know, impress people. It's just like, I wish you knew more about our main characters because they are so distinct and they have all these like really relatable, recognizable traits, and even though they're so different, they have such a like undying loyalty to each other. Even when they're like saying the most terrific ship in the world to each other. You know that there's like you never have a doubt that there is like baggage, but there's also so much love and I just, yeah, I I really was touched by I can't wait to watch it again. And I want the shirt, so I'm gonna be reree nipples there and then you know, the whatever we've we've we've talked through its issues and also they're really should be a Portuguese actor in this anyways, I'm going to just give one nipple to each of the three main characters. Amazing, Halle. It was really interesting to watch this movie very thoughtfully for the first time, because I think when I first watched it, when I was like in my late teens early twenties. The reason it took me took so long for the movie to grow on me was that I think I was just like, oh ha, this is like a chick flick that I'm going to watch while I'm like painting my nails on the weekend, and like just I don't know, like pass an afternoon or something. And then I think I can be like, I don't know, kind of like pretentiously my film taste. And I think that I it took several viewings to realize how much I loved this movie and like how how special I think it is. And I'm like biased in the way that it feels very like nostalgic to me. And I had never really watched it with like a feminist lens before. Honestly, um, I had watched it just like for a good time. Um. So it was really really cool, and I really appreciate like the opportunity to to like have this whole conversation about a movie that's been kind of just like in the background of my life for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, And I think I think I would agree with giving it three nipples. I think that it's definitely problematic in in so many ways, and like these women deserve better. I wish that we could see Amy Jones version. I wish that there was like an alternate universe where she directed it and we could, you know. I mean not that maybe it wouldn't be this movie like I that I love so much, um, But yeah, I think that, like it's sad that that didn't get to exist, um, and that she was like put through a ringer in such a way. So I'm going to give my extra nipples, all of them to Amy Jones because I think she really fought so hard for it. Seems like she's fought so hard for everything that she's made and like ended up like having an incredible career despite it. But yeah, like she she totally deserved to direct this movie and it seems like it was really important to her and she fought really hard to like have that chance, and she still didn't get it. But I'm grateful that we got to watch it. Seems like we got to watch the movie that was at least like loyal to her original script. But yeah, shout out to Amy Jens come on this show any time. Seriously, She's our biggest fan obviously, so she will hear this about Beethoven. Oh my gosh, we should coverchober on the Matrean. Yeah, I would love to know, like the gender politics of Beethoven. So would I. There's always like it's always those movies that you never expect that you're just like, wow, there's so much to talk about. See the Flubber episode. I do want to stay like thinking about this movie through this, like Feminist Lens is like for being from it could be unwatchable, it could be like absolutely unwatchable. And new movies like fall prey to the exact same ship, like ending with a wedding or like the characters who shouldn't stay together do like I mean spoiler alert to all the boys I've loved before. But like I remember watching like the third one and the whole movie. I was like, she's gonna break it off with him and like go off to college and have her like amazing life of being young and single in New York, and she just like stays with him long distance, and I was so disappointed and it felt similar to but like it's it's hard to blame Mystic Pizza for for ending the way it does. When movies now still can't resist ending in the wedding and ending in the like they're together forever. Like it's I mean, it's obnoxious. I hope we can get over it. When we're going to subvert that. One really great movie just has to do it, and then everyone will do it. Right there, I gets so trendy right now. Fine, I'll write it. Do it, Yeah, please write it, Caitlin. Um, well, thank you so much for being here. It was a treat to chat with you about Mystic Pizza, Absolute dream. I'm also very hungry for pizza now. So, um, where can people check out your work, tell us about your book, follow you on social media, all that stuff. Yeah. So my new book is called Directions, and it is a book of advice and epiphanies and aha moments. It's kind of my like the product of my constant need to like record everything and try to save anything that's like helpful or like potentially like life changing. And I hope that's an adequate description. But um, this book is really special to me and I'm really proud of it. And uh, it's the kind of thing that you can like pick up at any time and like maybe find something that will help and just help you, like deal with the abject terror of existing at all and having like no idea how to do it. So so that's my book. It's so beautiful. I love it so much. Thank you. Um yeah, and you can follow me online. My handle is halleth Bates, which is just a made up name that two thousand seven me thought of and now I have it forever. Um H A L L I T H Bates b A T E S. So yeah, follow me, and uh go watch Mystic Pizza if you haven't. It's a great film. Yes, and you can follow us on social media at Bechtel Cast. We've got our Patreon a k A Matreon, which gets you to bonus episodes every month, maybe Beethoven members on the horizon. You never know, we don't know. Anything could happen on the Matreon and uh it's five dollars a month. You get access to all the back catalog over eight episodes, extra good. And that's at patreon dot com slash betel Cast. Uh. And you can also grab our merch at t public dot com slash the Beetel Cast if that's something you choose to do. Um, I'm not going to get our merch. This week. I'm gonna probably end up waiting three days, then folding and buying a Mystic Pizza T shirt. That's my normal system of online shopping. Amazing. I'm going to go order a pizza. That's what I'm going to do for myself. Although I have this secret recipe, I don't even why I should just make my own. Nothing's going to compare to that. Caitlin, when you die, will you give us the recipe? You're going to give it to us, right, I'll think about it. Wow. Leona was so much more open with her recipe. Alright, bye bye