Rodeo Dunes Insights with Michael Keiser and Reflections on New-Coke Dinah Shore

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.

00:00:05
Speaker 2: Ball in a brid egg Frida eggad Frida, egg Frida egg egg bride egg lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

00:00:34
Speaker 1: Meg. What seemed closer to being a real golf tournament to you? The Zert Classic on the PGA Tour or Live Adelaide.

00:00:43
Speaker 3: Garrett, Uh, I really can't believe that's a that's a legitimate question. But Adelaide Adelaide delivered it was. I mean, if you're if you're live, you know, setting up the watering hole, I believe was what it was called the part three and kept this hole in one.

00:01:01
Speaker 1: Is that an Australian thing? By the way, the watering hole is there some kind of like is that a term that people use?

00:01:08
Speaker 3: I was not I was not tuned in to Live Adelaide this weekend. I was fulling in on the Chevron. I'm not sure if Arlow you and you're Arlow and and and Jerry and the crew dug into that at all, but yeah, yeah, I.

00:01:21
Speaker 1: Usually do provide some great historical cultural context on that.

00:01:25
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, very good at that, Yes indeed. Yeah. But I mean that's kind of the dream that you had when you're setting that up, is that that type of environment comes Sunday in the crowds and the the the the fanfare that was you know, they welcome to Live in in Adelaide. I don't know if they're not trying to copy that. I don't think you can mimic that every week. Yeah, but if not, they're not trying to copy that with you know, the places they're going, the the underserved spots that are are wanting professional golf. I mean, that's I always thought the big differentiator Live could have and they haven't done that with the majority of their schedule in the United States. So I mean, I think you got to look at this weekend as a massive success for them. We'll see if they try and mimic it elsewhere. I mean, the head scratching decisions have continued from you know, from the very beginning into this year with some of the things they're doing, so I wouldn't expect you know, them to kind of get it together and make some logical decisions moving forward, but you never know. I mean, got to answer the question, I'll give it to Live Adelaide.

00:02:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the Zari Classic really was pretty brutal this past weekend. And you know, the one strategic decision that really seems to be working out well for Live, aside from going to Australia, which obviously was smart, and going to Adelaide specifically, but the strategic decision that really seems smart at this point was putting their tournaments opposite. The most sort of moribund I guess would be the term. That's an adjective that I've seen in writing but maybe never said aloud. The most moribund PGA Tour events, of which the Zeri Classic is certainly one. Though I will give a shout out to Nick Hardy, who is part of the winning team this week, has been on the podcast a couple of times. Exciting young player, really fun to talk to, nice guy, and so I'm glad he won. But this tournament just really isn't it so far? And Adelaide did deliver that hole in one from Chase Kopka that was a moment. I'm not sure that I thought it was as cool as some people thought it was, because it was basically just like a store brand TPC Scottsdale sixteenth hole kind of situation. But certainly the excitement was valid there, so I you know, hey, you got to hand it to live. We'll see if they can replicate that kind of atmosphere at in Oklahoma or I believe as where they're going next, I'm not sure that that's going to happen.

00:03:57
Speaker 3: And happy, I mean happy for the fans in Australia that they got that experience. I mean, if that's your going for for a fun time and to see some excitement, I mean you got that.

00:04:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. Shout out PGA Tour for abandoning Australia, embittering an entire nation. All Right, you're listening to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison. That is Meg Atkins, and today we're going to talk about the Chevron Championship, primarily the two of us. This is the first women's major of the year, and this past weekend, for the first time, the event, formerly known as the Dinah Shore took place somewhere other than the Palm Springs area, and we'll discuss whether it still feels like an actual major. But first I'm going to bring on Michael Kaiser to talk about some big news in the golf development world. The Kaiser family is the one behind the resorts at Bandon Dunes, Sand Valley and Cabot Cape Breton, and last week Michael and his brother Chris announced that they will create another resort, this one outside of Denver, Colorado. It will be called Rodeo Dunes, not Rodeo Dunes, and the first course will be designed by longtime in Crenshaw associate Jimmy Craig. All right, let's go to me and Michael. So, Michael, before we get into the backstory of how Rodeo Dunes came about, let's just set a quick timeline here, because I'm sure people are curious when does construction start on the first course and around when do you expect it to open for play?

00:05:25
Speaker 2: Good question, construction against next year. This year we're doing pre development and we're working on things like getting roads out to the construction site, building a water pipeline, starting to work on water storage, some of the less exciting components to a project. Next year, we're going to build the first golf course and it should be ready for the world. Let's say May one of the following year of twenty twenty.

00:05:52
Speaker 1: Five, twenty twenty five. Okay, may first, are there any plans for additional courses at this point? I know, well into the future, but what have you got going on?

00:06:02
Speaker 2: Oh? I'm glad yes, because it is our intention to come out of the gates pretty quickly with two golf courses. Jimmy Craig has routed one, and Bill Korer and Ben Crenshaw have routed the other. We're going to build those in pretty quick secession succession, and then we hope to you know, we'll take a brief pause, but we hope to then get going with the third course pretty quickly after that. We currently have land and we're hoping to expand our boundaries. But right now we have land, great land for six golf courses, you know, and we always take it one at a time, but given the location and the quality of the dunes, we're going to be a little less conservative and move toward two and then three and hopefully well beyond relatively quickly.

00:06:51
Speaker 1: Right And so, just for some context, at Bandon Dunes, it took somewhere in the range of I suppose twenty years to get to the the five or six course mark to get the sheep ranch, and that process will be accelerated. It sounds like a rodeo dens.

00:07:07
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:07:07
Speaker 2: I hope if all goes well, if people listen to this and come out and play it and then enjoy it and tell their friends to come check it out.

00:07:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we'll go slightly faster.

00:07:16
Speaker 2: You know, Bandon, in the big picture of golf, development has developed relatively, you know, quickly, so I would certainly be comfortable with that timeframe. But I do imagine that we'll be able to go a little bit a little bit faster here. And you know, unlike Bandon, there are fabulous places to stay nearby, not the least of which is the city of Denver, which is a great city.

00:07:43
Speaker 4: That wasn't the case of Bandon.

00:07:44
Speaker 2: And a lot of our resources go into building the things that don't necessarily attract people.

00:07:50
Speaker 4: To our properties.

00:07:51
Speaker 2: Right, So by just being able to focus on the golf for now, we're able to build it a quicker clip and then add in time the lodging and the restaurants and the things we all appreciate, but really focused our resources and our time on the golf.

00:08:09
Speaker 1: All right, So, going back in time a bit, how did you find this piece of land.

00:08:15
Speaker 4: In the big scheme of things.

00:08:17
Speaker 2: It couldn't have been easier to find because it was hiding in plain sight.

00:08:21
Speaker 4: And since announcing it, and even.

00:08:24
Speaker 2: Before, I heard from a lot of people that you know, I've been driving past that forever and I always thought it'd be a great golf course.

00:08:30
Speaker 4: And to all of them, I said, well, why didn't you call me and tell me? We could have sped this up.

00:08:35
Speaker 2: My brother Chris and I were supposed to go down to Sweeten's Cope. We've still never been. Our flight was delayed. We're at midway due to a storm on both ends, and we started chatting very casually about a business model, which we don't have to get into, but it led to the question, I wonder if there's any interesting golf land near bally Neil, which sounds silly if you've ever been to bally Neil. Neither one of us had at the time, so our flight was canceled. I got home that night, logged onto Google Earth, saw that it was surrounded by sand and interesting contours, and it didn't take more than a minute or two to pan west toward you know, Denver and see that movement continuing until I saw the first big exposed sand. So if anybody goes online now you see the site, it's like an exposed dune, you know, from from one hundred thousand feet. And I forgot the first town where I saw that, but a second after that there's another. There's another big exposure, and then Fort Green is the one in the middle. It's quite I hope I'm getting that name right, but it's been many years since I've looked at that town. But then Rogin is ours the furthest west, so when you look it from space you see these huge these three huge blowouts moving westward across Highway seventy six toward Denver. That could be easier to spot. So that was the easy part. It took about two minutes. The hard part was convincing the landowner to let us build a golf course in his backyard. You know, he's a rancher, you know, oil man who runs rodeo business, played golf once and walked off the course, you know, before he was done. So that was the real challenge was convincing my now partner Mike Survey and friend that this it was a crazy idea, but it was a crazy idea worth exploring with us and that took most of the last four years.

00:10:51
Speaker 1: I wonder whether this is one of the first golf developments that was discovered on Google Earth. Do you know whether there's a press for that.

00:11:01
Speaker 2: I know, I don't know, but I'm guessing most of the ones that are discovered now Google Earth is involved, right, it might not.

00:11:09
Speaker 1: I mean this was discovered. That's part of the research process.

00:11:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's part of the research process. Now for any site that I'll go, I was on it today. There is so much information available. When Craig Halton found Sand Valley, he did it with like a road at list and looked for you know, gravel, you know, mines. But it's you know, twenty percent of the globe and the country and most states are covered in sand. Sand is everywhere, and it's easy to you know, on Google within a minute find your state, you know, soil maps, and it's easier than ever to find sites. I think the cats out of the bag and people are finding them, you know now and learning.

00:11:51
Speaker 4: The tricks, and they're simple.

00:11:53
Speaker 2: What's hard is developing them and developing them well and building you know, great.

00:11:57
Speaker 4: Products and experiences.

00:11:59
Speaker 2: But it's not like you know, it's it's not like the old days, you know, fifteen years ago when when that technology wasn't available. There's there's so much technology now now available to us.

00:12:12
Speaker 1: What would you say are some of the ways that this property is similar to other Dream Golf properties, and what are some of the ways that it's unique or that it stands alone.

00:12:23
Speaker 2: Well, so topographically it's it's very unique, and I'll end on that. The way it's the way the project is similar is golf will come for second and third, right, Like we make every every decision that we make about the development is built on the foundation of building you know, great accessible you know, golf and putting putting that first.

00:12:46
Speaker 4: So that's what it had, you know, when we call it a dream.

00:12:48
Speaker 2: Golf project, that's what it has in common with Bandon or Sand Valley golf as it was meant to be played on the ground, you know, walking, that's that's that's what they all have in common.

00:13:01
Speaker 4: Topographically, it's very different.

00:13:04
Speaker 2: I mean, it's choppy, pure sand dunes. You know, Bandon has pockets of sand, you know early on and fact dunes and towards the end and it's very sandy. I shouldn't say pockets of sand, but it has pockets of these choppy dunes. This entire site is chopped. It's it's dune chop and reminded me immediately of you know, Western Ireland. So topographically it's very different than Sand Valley where you have these valleys and ridges. You know, Bandon plays along the ocean and has a lot of hard pan.

00:13:40
Speaker 4: Near the ocean.

00:13:41
Speaker 2: Clearly the ocean is spectacular. And then like I said, pockets of dunes. But topographically these are sand dunes. They range in size and amplitude. There's nice healthy quarters between them, which is great, you know, more with more, more, more angles, more strategy, but it's it's it's unlike visually the other side. There's not a single tree on the site. Right, these are this is all you know in the central uh you know, in the Western Plain. So there's there's prairie flowers and grasses, but nothing taller than sort of waist high for miles and miles and miles and miles. You know, it looks like an ocean of rolling choppy seat.

00:14:30
Speaker 1: Maybe you could tell me about the process that led to selecting Jimmy Craig as the designer of the first course at Rodeo Dunes. People who know golf architecture know that Craig has worked for Corn Crenshaw for a number of years and was a driving force behind the Sandbox project at the sand Valley Resort in Wisconsin, which obviously you own and operate. So tell me about how you got to the point where you finally hired Jimmy as the designer of this first course.

00:15:03
Speaker 2: So Chris and I hired Bill and Ben first to route their golf course. They routed it first, but they made clear early on that they had a lot of projects going and they weren't sure when they were able to build it, so we hired them first. I you know, I'd always had, you know, a fantasy as an armchair architect of routing and building a golf course. And I just spent a lot of time out on the ground because it took four years to get the deal done. So every trip, I would, you know, spend a day or a couple of days walking around. And I knew the ground really well. It's an easy site to find holes. I think anybody would go out there and you just see holes in all directions, right, So it's really a game of subtraction, you know, to to allow for that you know, variety and the storylines to emerge in the routing. So I was working on a routing on my own, and I invited a whole bunch of arche tech friends to come out and help me and you know, give me their insights and edits and critiques and improvements. So I was doing that for a year or so, and I invited Jimmy out.

00:16:15
Speaker 4: And I'll get to why.

00:16:16
Speaker 2: And I think so highly of him, but why I invited him out and he came out and made some great improvements, and then he and then he stuck around, and then he came back and then came back again, and he just started working on it. And pretty soon there wasn't really much left of my routing. It was clearly Jimmy's routing, and it was far better. So I went back to my armchair and said, okay, let the I'll let the pros take it from here, because it.

00:16:42
Speaker 4: Was just so much better and more interesting. And that's how I got the job. I never like reached out to jim and said.

00:16:49
Speaker 2: You know, I'd like to hire you to build, you know, the first golf course at Rodeo Dunes. He's a friend somebody who I respect and Admiyer and he came out and started helping, and then he never stopped helping. And then one day we were walking off the site and I said, Jimmy, let's build that golf course. That that's incredible and the world should see that. You're the architect. Why don't you go build it. A little backstory that you alluded to with Jimmy, I got to know him on the first golf course at sand Valley, where you know, and early the first two architects worked worked for my dad there. That was before Chris and I, you know, bought bought, bought Sand Valley. So I decided to make my mark by really getting to know the shapers. I was living there, I was on the ground, and I got to know Jim well and we developed a trust in a relationship there, and I saw that he could route golf courses because he shared his routings on the property with me, and we walked him together, and they were very strong and very unique. And then he and I sort of snuck off and built the sandbox together, and you know, realized that could work together, and we did trust each other.

00:18:04
Speaker 4: He and Bill's whole team. I mean, he just he works.

00:18:08
Speaker 2: Harder than anybody, and he leaves everything out there on the field, right. I mean he he'll put on the spotlights of his truck and just shape into the night. I mean he becomes obsessed. Sambox was I mean it was borderline.

00:18:23
Speaker 4: I was worried.

00:18:24
Speaker 2: I mean, he was just working so hard and put so much into that, and I think he knocked it out out of the park. So couldn't have more respect for him. You know, the world has seen what he's built, you know, for Bill and Ben, you know at Bandoned Trails and Friar's Head and most recently at MacArthur. But I'd seen it firsthand and knew that he had what it takes, and he just stepped up and grabbed the opportunity at Rodeo Dunes. I didn't give it to him. He just started helping and he never stopped helping. And now he's going to build that golf course.

00:19:01
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you had done some routings of your own for this golf course, and then Jimmy Craig came in and came up with ones that you thought were better. What did you notice about the way that he was routing the course that maybe you weren't able to see when you were doing your own versions of that project.

00:19:23
Speaker 2: Well, I just I like the holes ultimately that he had it just the variety I mean were because it started with what I was trying to accomplish. I guess our visions aligned is just building something very unique and very playful and fun.

00:19:41
Speaker 4: And you could say that.

00:19:42
Speaker 2: You know, any of the dream golf courses are and I would agree are very fun to play, but our inspiration was a course like North Barrick.

00:19:51
Speaker 4: We both agreed that we want to build a golf course like that. And what.

00:19:56
Speaker 2: Is frustrating to both of us is when we hear as people have said a long time, you know, North Barrick.

00:20:01
Speaker 4: Is it's the most fun.

00:20:02
Speaker 2: It might be the most fun golf course, but right there's always a butt. And we just thought, we both agree, as I'm sure you and others do, that there doesn't have to be a period after the most golf fun golf course in the world.

00:20:17
Speaker 4: You can just stop it right there, like that's our goal.

00:20:20
Speaker 2: So what I liked about Jimmy's routing is that he had he added holes that met that criteria better than the holes on my routing, and and did.

00:20:31
Speaker 4: So you know, the other condition is.

00:20:33
Speaker 2: That it each hole is completely unique from all the others. So he added holes that fit that, but that were unique from all of the others. You know, he just saw things differently and saw new holes out there that were just pure fun and completely different than any of the holes you know that that I had seen, you know out there. So that's that's the gist of it. You know, the flow is great, but it just really fun. Hold every one of the holes. You're going to remember, I could. I could promise you that, and you're not going to confuse any one hole with any other hole on his routing.

00:21:10
Speaker 1: So when you think about a fun golf course, a golf course that prioritizes fun and maybe is inspired by North Barrick in some way, are you thinking along the lines of a shorter course, or a quirkier course, or a course with holes that maybe seem a little bit crazy, but then when you play them they're really fun. What comes to mind when you think about.

00:21:31
Speaker 4: All of that. I mean, the ground is not like North Barrick.

00:21:33
Speaker 2: There are some sections of the ground that are similar, and there's even a hole, you know, modeled after Is it perfection? The fourteenth hole. His third plays very similarly, but it's more, you know, being okay with with less length. I mean, speaking for myself, I'm allows you golfer, and I don't I don't like hitting long irons, right, It's just not fun. Even if I find the hole, you know, intellectually stimulating and could say that's a fabulous golf hall, the reality is, if you give me a three iron, it's it's not as fun to me as.

00:22:11
Speaker 4: You know, a medium length part four.

00:22:13
Speaker 2: You know, I've heard I've heard, you know, Andy talking about the six at Prairie Dunes, and I love holes like that, you know, seventeen at stream Song Red where there's just so many different avenues for any golfer of any ability to play that golf hole. I'm a sucker for those, and I'm comfortable going heavy in those right like, so to me, that's particularly fun.

00:22:33
Speaker 4: You mentioned quirky.

00:22:34
Speaker 2: There's some quirkiness to that, and I think you could overdo it if you're deliberately seeking out quirky. But there's a wonderful quirkiness to these holes on his routing, which is going to differentiate itself from Bill and Ben's because theirs are such beautiful, perfect, complete artistic compositions. And I said this to Bill recently, and you know, he knows what extreme regard I hold him in, but I don't. Actually I said that we were in Dornick and his second hole. I said, you know, Bill, I've never seen a hole you rout a hole this quirky. I mean, this is extremely quirky, and I love it. So I wouldn't use that adjective to describe Bill and Ben. They're unbelievable in other ways. But Jim has added some quirkiness to the routing, and I think, you know that's that's whimsical and fun. Yeah, so length having some not some, but you know, the sixteenth Green at North Barrack. Everybody says you couldn't build that today, but it's one of the most fun greens in the world to hit into and to recover onto because you generally miss it. So why not why can't we have you know, a green or two like that that are just you know, a little mind a little mind bending. And then you know, I think this is true with all the courses that we build, but letting go of you know, conventional standards of you know, why not finish with you know, a two hundred and eighty yard uh part four as as they do a Saint Andrews and Prestwick and North Barrick ours doesn't. But just letting go obviously of any of those, you know, conventional standards, we have five par threes. I'd love to see five part threes on every golf course. I think it's fun when you could hit the full spectrum of shots into a variety of greens.

00:24:28
Speaker 4: Cabo Cliffs have six. I like that as well.

00:24:31
Speaker 2: So that's sort of I guess what I mean by more playful shots that that are playful.

00:24:37
Speaker 4: You know, or that will reward a little.

00:24:43
Speaker 2: A little playfulness, right and if probably not describing it well, but if you're stepping up, you know, trying to hit that super serious you know, high flying you know, for iron draw, that maybe maybe that's not the best way to get it close to the hole. And I think that could be for Bill and Ben's as well. But just having you know, some some sort of playful shot shots you know as well. You know one of them is a very short part three, a postage stamp part three without any bunkers. You know, sounds pretty fun, you know, it might be the hardest part three on the routing, but it's you know, one hundred and ten yards without any bunkers, So that's you know, that's uh, that'll play with your imagination for sure. You know.

00:25:27
Speaker 1: Hearing you talk about this makes me think about something that's been on my mind a lot lately, which is that if you look at the history of golf architecture, we've kind of shifted into a new phase roughly every two or three decades, and I think most people would agree that we're currently in an era of golf development and design that started more or less with sand hills and Bandon Dunes. Have you thought about what's next in golf architecture and what the next cutting edge is going to be and is this part of what you're moving towards with this type of design with Jimmy Craig or is that not really something that's on your mind. Are you more kind of focused on one project at a time, like an athlete is focused on one game at a time.

00:26:11
Speaker 2: I don't think about it at a macro scale in terms of the industry, but I think about where we want to take it and just what's interesting to us.

00:26:18
Speaker 4: I mean a lot of what we do.

00:26:19
Speaker 2: Is like just what is what allows us to be creative and have fun? So I think a lot about that and this is certainly in that ILK as is let's say Sedge Valley, which is you know a little little different on the scorecard. So a couple of things that you know, I'd like to do differently. And every time you know, we're described as doing something new, I think there's always like like a historical precedent that shows that we're not all that original and a lot of this has been done elsewhere and we're just trying to bring that pass to the present, like like you know, building a course like Prestwick or North Barrack. But I think I think we courses and intermediate courses that you see throughout Scotland is something we want to go heavy into here here.

00:27:09
Speaker 4: In the US.

00:27:10
Speaker 2: And this will be you know, a championship course, but we are working on some concepts. Let's say it's just twelve thirteen hole, you know, built more for the intermediate golfer, that's fun for the advanced golfer. I think we're going to see or we're going to be building a lot more of those on both of these courses, you know, one thing I'd personally like to explore for a little bit, and I've talked to Bill and Ben and Jimmy about is just a little more economy of bunkering. You know, a course like Port Rush in Ireland that's just so I don't know, I just describe it. And there's a few bunkers today and they added half of them for the open a couple of years ago, you know, so what can we do like And I've sort of wondered if we gave the architect a budget of fifteen bunkers, you know, how would we make the most impactful And then what's left in that blank space?

00:28:05
Speaker 4: You know.

00:28:06
Speaker 2: I listened to your your conversation with Andy recently on Augusta and I've heard a lot of great podcasts from you guys and Augusta. That original original golf course had very I think there was something like seventeen bunkers when they opened, and.

00:28:21
Speaker 4: That's that's you know.

00:28:23
Speaker 2: I just saw the tree Farm holes like nine and eleven, eleven has one.

00:28:27
Speaker 4: That's far back.

00:28:29
Speaker 2: That type of hole is is really interesting to me right now. So I guess my answer at least for the next couple of years. And these courses we're building is we are going to add some very unconventional pars and number of holes and things like that. Weave those into our matrix of courses at the existing resorts and new resorts, and then for another project we'll talk about on another podcast. And then here in Colorado. I think some of that that frugality, that Irish frugality of bunkering, some lower, less flashy bunkering. You'll see that on Sedge Valley. You know, things bunkers that sit below the ground. They're easier to maintain. You know, these beautiful flashy bunkers are expensive to maintain, and.

00:29:22
Speaker 4: They're pretty, but they're they're now.

00:29:25
Speaker 2: I don't want to see ubiquitous, but it's a style that emerged in the sand Hills, and we saw it at pac Dunes, and I just I like the idea of, you know, what can architect do with ten to thirty bunkers, smaller bunkers with big magnets under them that draw you know, draw in from big collection areas.

00:29:45
Speaker 4: But that that's what's interesting to me right now.

00:29:50
Speaker 2: But I have no idea what what others are going to do and where we'll be in thirty years. But over the next four or five years. I think you'll see a lot of that from us.

00:30:00
Speaker 1: Now, before I let you go, Michael, I have to ask one question about the Glen Golf Park, local public course in Madison, Wisconsin that you and your wife Jocelyn helped renovate. What will people experience if they go to the Glenn Golf Park and the upcoming golf season. I believe it reopened for play last July and now it's got a full golf season upcoming. I think it's pretty unique. I've talked to Sarah mess about it in the past. What what will people see if they go there?

00:30:29
Speaker 2: Well, first off, we've called the Glen you know, golf park it they'll see a lot more than golf happening there.

00:30:36
Speaker 4: We just released the program for the year and there's there's.

00:30:39
Speaker 2: Live music and movies and iiking and yoga, and they'll see a lot of activity beyond golf. So that's the first thing that might be startling. The second thing they'll see is a lot of the ground. We've opened it up to the community in a physical way, removed you know, these these dent you junk trees that were planted to screen the golf that was really sending a message of you know, stay out. We've removed those, you know, and to make it a welcoming property so people actually see the property and be invited in. From from a golf standpoint, they'll see an entire golf course mode at one cut, you know, at one height, and there's some nice, you know, big broad movement on the property. They'll see an intermediate golf course, and it's something I'd like to do at our properties, but with you know, on a sandy site, with you know, it would be neat to I've been excited about the Glenn but intermediate golf course, you know, I just it's it's perfect for people of lower swing speeds. Right, the number one demographic of people who played Glenn Way is senior women fallow by senior men. Now we're seeing all these young people playing there, seeing a lot of college kids who are coming into the game aim out there. It's it's a it does not defend, uh really really well against like a plus two, right, I mean you could go shoot shoot par And I think there are ways to build an intermediate course that is also defendable, and I'd like to explore how to do that. But just a lot of short grass. There's very few bunkers, you know, sixty percent of them are on one beautiful par three. So a lot of short grass, a lot of severe shapes on the edges and around the greens. The greens themselves are pretty simple. You'll see a lot of people, I mean it's packed.

00:32:43
Speaker 4: You'll see a putting course that is often packed.

00:32:49
Speaker 2: Right and when you drive home from work, you'll see you know, kids and families from the community who are out there.

00:32:54
Speaker 4: You know, putting it's free, just show up.

00:32:56
Speaker 2: We have with the city has the balls and the clubs. Just go ahead and and putt. So the golf course is different in that it's sort of bunker list all one height, really fun. You know, the angles do matter. So if somebody like me who hits it a long way but I have no idea where it's going, you could put yourself into some very difficult situations where it is very hard to make a par.

00:33:22
Speaker 4: But if I'm playing, you know, against my grandmother, it's it straight.

00:33:26
Speaker 2: She could you know, she can make make make some money hustling that you know, the young the young men who play out there. So that's I guess, you know, I hope. I hope that helps him. Describing what to expect, I would say it's uh. I think it's part thirty two, which is super fun. There's five par threes, it's a nine hole course, one par five.

00:33:51
Speaker 4: You know.

00:33:51
Speaker 2: Kaig Altam did a great job. Bran Schneider and Brian Slonik, we're out there. Jay Blasi came out and helps her mess with big part of it.

00:34:00
Speaker 4: So it was a.

00:34:01
Speaker 2: Really fun collaboration among those architects and others, and there may be some more projects coming coming soon. I'll leave you with that cliffhanger, but the city's enjoyed it, and Josson and I had a lot of fun doing it, so we want to we'd like, we'd love to be a part of golf's future beyond Glen Way in Madison, and we'll see where that goes.

00:34:26
Speaker 1: Excellent. All right, Well, that's that's very exciting. I'm looking forward to getting out there myself at some point. Michael, thank you so much for coming on podcast.

00:34:34
Speaker 2: Garrett, thanks so much for your time. It was really fun and look forward to our next conversation.

00:34:50
Speaker 1: This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast is brought to you by USGA Memberships One of the many benefits of the USGA membership is that you get your very own USGA bag tag. The USGA bagtag represents many things to many different people. For some, it's a reflection of their support for programs that bring more players to the game. For others, it shows that they care about ensuring that golf has a long and sustainable future. For many, it's a symbol of their love and support for the game. Whatever it means to you, become a USGA member today and rep the tag by visiting USGA dot org slash fridagg Again, that's USGA dot org slash Frida Egg. Okay, so I'm back here with Meg. Meg. How are you doing?

00:35:41
Speaker 3: Doing great? Doing great?

00:35:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, you didn't get too bored while I was talking to Michael.

00:35:45
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I'll get I'll get here.

00:35:47
Speaker 1: To be clear, she wasn't there during the conversation and just not talking. I recorded at a different time. But anyway, we're back to talk about the Chevron Championship. This was held at the club at Carlton Woods outside of Houston. Exis you know this For the sake of clarity, this is the tournament formerly known as the A and A inspiration the Craft Nabisco Championship and the Dinah Shore. Did I miss any names? I mean there's been a bunch of names.

00:36:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think Colegate was in the title there.

00:36:17
Speaker 1: It was the Colgate Dinah Shore is what it was called for a while.

00:36:20
Speaker 3: But I mean, well we'll forgive you for that one. That's been a you know, five years. Yeah, hm of sponsors and names and yeah.

00:36:28
Speaker 1: All right. So yeah, it was held at Mission Hills Country Club in the Palm Springs area for for fifty one years to be exact. But then Chevron became the title sponsor a couple of years ago decided to move it too, Texas, So that's where we are. First edition of the Chevron Championship at Carlton Woods was won by Lilia Vu. She beat Angel Yin in a playoff. Nellie Cordo was one shot back in solo third place, and several players tied for fourth, including a Taia Titekun Alim Kim, and Albin Valenzuela. So, first of all, Meg, what should we know about Lily Avu.

00:37:05
Speaker 3: Lily VU's having a heck of a year watching her go low and make pretty much everything she looked at in Thailand when she won her first victory from behind, which I think this was.

00:37:16
Speaker 1: In February of this year, right, the Thailand tournament, which.

00:37:19
Speaker 3: I think was a key advantage for her yesterday, you know, being behind and not playing in that final group. You know, that's how she won her first victory a few months ago. She's got that next year, and I always talked I've talked about that before, but she can rattle off a bunch of birdies in a row. She doesn't really back down. You saw tough conditions on Sunday, she had a sixty eight. I believe that was the low round with with Jin Junko shot sixty eight. Georgia Hall shot sixty eight, So that was that was as low as it got on Sunday. And she's had some struggles. You know, she's been open about it, been open about almost quitting the game. You know, stud at UCLA and then didn't really hit the ground running when she when she left college.

00:38:06
Speaker 1: She was on the Symmetro Tour for a while, right, she was a Symmetro Tour grinder and has only recently really ascended full time to the LPGA tour.

00:38:15
Speaker 3: Yep, Yeah, talk to I mean, she's been open about it too, like talked about how she isn't really pairing how she's playing on the golf course with her self esteem and how she's feeling overall in other aspects of her life. And I think that's just freed her up. And we've seen her playing totally loose, totally freed up. She set herself up for not only the International crown coming up, but pretty much a lock for Solheim. So the timing of this ascension is really, really, really great. And I think Sunday was what we've seen from her this year really really great. With a flat stick, you know, makes makes a ton of ton of pets sneaky long, and that's kind of what you needed out at Carlton Woods week with the kind of wet, tough conditions was cold Sunday. I just think that she's figured it out, and maybe it took her a little bit longer. We're so used to kind of, you know, some teenage phenoms and people not even going the college route on the LPGA tour, But she's got it clicking. I really don't think this is going to be the last we hear of her. She's going to have some big stages, like I said, with the International Crown and Sulhem Cup coming up, and excited to see how long she can keep this hot streak going. It's a very very hot streak that she's on. I'm sure there will probably be some sort of a cool down, but she's got the game to be around and be in the mix here for a while.

00:39:41
Speaker 1: So would you say that it was a pretty sleepy Sunday until basically the last hour of action at Carlton Woods. So okay, So you know, like it was a little bit gray, It was a little bit cold. Scoring was kind of in neutral, right, It wasn't super high, but at all also wasn't super low. But then some chaos really came about in those last moments of the tournament. So what were some of the things that happened down the stretch that were kind of weird and just random.

00:40:12
Speaker 3: It got that feeling of the train wreck that you can't really look away for a while there with eighteen and it was all It was crazy how it was all mostly on eighteen. So I really thought kind of coming down the stretch that it was going to be a tie Titekun, you know, breaking through for her first major when twenty year old, just stud from Thailand and her group. She's playing with, Alim Kim. They come down eighteen A. Taya goes for it in two, which you know, I like the aggressive play Hindsight's twenty twenty. She didn't necessarily need to do that. She could have, you know, just got her five and been in the playoff. She goes for in two, comes up well, short ends up with the double bogie seven. She's out of contention. Her playing partner Alim Kim was solid throughout the day. I belie she was eight under on eighteen.

00:41:02
Speaker 1: Aalen Kim by the way US Open winner.

00:41:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yep, so been here, been here before, been on the big stage and just comes up with a world class shank on on her approach, and I mean it was the camera barely kept up with it. It was. It was I'm not glad the crowds weren't that great, but I'm glad it wasn't packed in there, because yeah, it was coming in right off, right off the toe, and it's like, okay, what's what just happened here? That was two shots back to back, and then we get Angel Yan's group coming in. She's playing with Alison Corpus, who's out of it at that point, and Corpus goes smartly because of how eighteen was set up with water short and the grand stand long. She tubs up and just launches one, you know, well over the green, ends up in the met backing of the of the grandstand, and then I hadn't seen maybe I had missed it, but I hadn't seen the drop zone until then, which was almost on the green, so.

00:42:13
Speaker 1: It was just off the you're basically putting and I.

00:42:17
Speaker 3: Don't know, like this is obviously and she's playing in the final group with Angelin. Angelian maybe hadn't seen the drop zone throughout the week. Maybe the drop zone changed, I'm not sure based on pin location, but Angelien saw where that drop zone was, which kind of makes her underclubbing in the playoff even more of an inexplicable decision. So yeah, just weirdness. I mean, I'm glad there was some of the chaos, but that wasn't necessarily the good type of chaos with you know, exchanging birdies and and you know, fireworks at the end. It was kind of the not so good type of fireworks, but it did make for a fun ending to what had been kind of a sleepy day.

00:42:59
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it wouldn't be this tournament if we didn't have a super stinky final hole involving water and ridiculous grandstands and TiO relief and all of that. Right. We had that at Mission Hills Country Club to varying degrees over the years. You know, there were jokes about the Great Wall of Dinah, the big blue wall behind the green that was such a convenient backboard for many players, but really they kind of recreated that situation here and it wasn't good. Like, you know clearly that the play was to just fire two clubs too many right at the grand stands.

00:43:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and you I mean had a great chance to burdy it doing it that way. I mean it was it was.

00:43:43
Speaker 1: Crazy, Yeah, where the drop zone was, right?

00:43:46
Speaker 4: Yeah?

00:43:46
Speaker 3: Were you a fan of the Texas shaped green out in out in the lake?

00:43:52
Speaker 1: I mean, well, we'll get into it a little more, but this course was not a major championship caliber course. You know, all respect to Jack Nicholas, you know, as a player, but his architecture is not doing it for me at this at this venue. Yeah, So okay, it was kind of a weird Sunday. You know, gotta admit it, Lily Avoud did what she had to do. She shot sixty eight on Sunday, she burdied her last two holes in regulation, and she survived the playoff. That's how you win a major, right You can't say that she sort of backed into this. She went out and won it. But Nellie Korda had just an odd Sunday. She seemed to be a little bit down mentally. I'm not exactly sure what was going on with her, but she was close enough. Then she suddenly eagled the last hole and she's in solo third. You know, it just seemed like she's in a different class than a lot of the players she was competing against for this title, and it seemed like one that she really should have reached out and gotten. Gin Young Coe had not that great of weekend, but she played decently. Brooke Henderson same thing. Minji Lee had some moments, but it was basically a non factor on the weekend. Lydia Coe missed the cut, and so a lot of the top players in the women's game. You know, Lilia Vu is the twelfth ranked player in the world. She's not just a random winner here. But are you a little bit frustrated? Are you getting a little bit frustrated that the top players currently don't seem to be stepping up in majors?

00:45:25
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And I think the standout from that list is Lydia Coe. That was shot. I would never guess that she was going to miss the cut this reeover.

00:45:35
Speaker 1: Or something like that. Yeahs fairly comfortable.

00:45:38
Speaker 3: It was the first miss cut in like almost two years, and she made the cut it majors. I think her streak was fourteen so as she talked before and like I think on her press conference Wednesday about how when she'd played out here, she had almost lost every ball she had in her bag, and it was just so maybe maybe we can, you know, chalk it up to just not a good fit for her. But I also, I mean, your lydio co level of player, like you make it work even if the course isn't a good fit for you. Yeah, it's super frustrated. I was pulling for Nelly. I thought things just set up perfectly for her, with her being the biggest name on the board, her floor. I mean that put on eighteen was the only put she made the entire day.

00:46:26
Speaker 1: Exactly.

00:46:27
Speaker 3: So, yeah, her floor I think is that much higher than even you know, the top players. You could even say her floor is probably higher than Lydia and Gin Young Coo.

00:46:38
Speaker 1: I mean she I'd say, definitely right. She's long and she can go really really low.

00:46:45
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, disappointment from Lydia for not even making the weekend, disappointment from Nelly on Sunday just not putting the pieces together when she probably didn't even need to put them all perfectly together exactly.

00:46:57
Speaker 1: Know, this is one of those ones where she could have won with her B game. I mean, kind of like John Rahm did at the Masters, Like, yeah, he won by a substantial margin, but I didn't get the sense that he was really firing on all cylinders for most of that tournament. These are the kinds of majors that Nelly can win because she is, you know, sort of the John Rahm of the women's game right now. She's that booie type player, is the no Laying Up podcast likes to say, where she just is so strong a ball striker that she's just never really out of it, never really doesn't have a chance.

00:47:34
Speaker 3: It's frustrating because, like I thought, Saturday set up to be so much potential for a great, great day out there. The weather finally turned there were it was way more crowded out there on Saturday than Sunday, and you had Nellie Brooke and Patti tapatannikit and the group just stunk, I think, And maybe that rubbed off a little bit on Nelly again. Same thing with Lydia miss and the cut at that caliber of player, even if your group's not playing solid, you gotta, you know, not let that affect you. And it was just I think she played with who Ju Kim on Sunday Nellie did and you know who Ju Kim didn't do much either, so it's like there was never it just she just got stuck and never got out of it for the weekend. And yeah, I was I was bummed to see. I thought Saturday after the second round, the leaderboard was shaping up to be a really exciting weekend and people just fall away except for Nelly, except for Lily Avo. And you know, yes Lily Vu is top she'll be top ten player now after that win. But that's all within you know, six months essentially a little bit longer. Maybe, so if you haven't been following along. That was a new name to you and definitely worthy, definitely worthy champion. But yeah, for Chevron's first year, yes they got a fun finish with all the wackiness and the playoff, but yeah, you definitely were If you're them hoping that Nelly was your champion on Sunday.

00:48:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope that retrospect makes this win and this tournament a little bit more exciting. Sometimes time does that, right. We look back on some of Brooks Koepka's first wins, like the Aaron Hills win. At the time that seemed a little bit like a you know, a third or fourth Pier Major. Maybe it still seems like that, but now we look back on it and Brooks as a four time major winner, the best major player of his generation, and we kind of appreciate that one for that reason. Maybe maybe we'll get to that place with Lily Avu. But the thing is, you know, I've been fooled before with winners of women's majors. In the past few years, we've had Yuku Sasso. I convinced myself that she was the next superstar, and maybe she will be. She's still very young, but she hasn't won since her US Open win. Since Olympic Club, she hasn't been around winning tournaments. Patty Tavic Tannicet the same deal. She's had real struggles and she's starting to get back in form, which is great to see, but she we had a really bad weekend at the Chevron. And I was also convinced when when Patti tabatanak at one, I guess it was the A and A inspiration at the time at Mission Hills, I thought, this is a superstar. She's so long, she's so dominant, she's gonna win multiple majors in the next few years, and she just hasn't. So I hope that we see some of that out of Lilia view, or that we see some sort of center of gravity start to form in the women's game, because it's a little bit missing right now. We see Nellie Corda and Jin Young Coo and Lydia coe Is having outstanding abilities. We see Brooke Henderson and you know, Lexi Thompson obviously being very popular players who are also top six or seven players in the world, but we're just not seeing them go head to head in majors very much, and I wish that would happen more often.

00:50:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm with you, I'm with you. I'm if we weren't going to get that the top players all together vying for a major championship, I'm glad that it happened at this major championship and that we still have Pebble, Baltus Role, Walton Heath later this year, where you know, those are definitely another tier of major in the women's game, and so yeah, I'm crossing my fingers we can see that all come together at one of those, you know, later this year.

00:51:24
Speaker 1: Speaking of tiers of majors. Good second Chevron Championship is still a major, right, it's moved away from the Palm Springs area. You know, it was always sort of a second tier major. It was not on the level of the US Women's Open, now, the Women's Open, the British Open has not been around for very long. Actually, I believe that the Chevron Championship has a deeper history than the Women's Open. I may be wrong, but I think that the British Open is a fairly recent invention, and so there's some genuine history here. But the course wasn't wonderful and it always just felt like a bit of a sleepy major, But it was definitely a major. We had a tradition there, one of the most important tournaments in the history of the LPGA tour and women's golf, and so as long it was as it was in that setting, you had the traditions, you had the Dinoshore weekend around it, you had all of these trappings of a real major championship. Now it's at Carlton Woods. How would you break down the ways that it has and hasn't retained the feeling of a major.

00:52:37
Speaker 3: First off, Like, when it comes to the is it a major question? If you're asking the question, I think you have your answer. There's been talk of like, you know, what's the formula that makes the major? Like it? There is no formula. It's it should be obvious, it should be clear cut. What are the majors? And what are you know the next year? Listen, like when when Dinoshore through her name in to the event and brought all that attention to the LPGA, it moved the LPGA's timeline of growth up years, decades probably, And I think if we look, you know, this didn't happen overnight. The decline didn't happen overnight. I wrote about that you know, it's not something that oh, Dinah was incredible until you know, recently, like it's been a slow decline. And I think the first like big problem that happened with the event was it losing the name the Dinah Shore. That matters when it's a major, that's the history, that's the you know, we talked about this in the men's game with the sponsors changing hands for regular events. Well that happened for a major with true legacy and history on the LPGA. You lose that name, it goes through this carousel of sponsors and now you have Chevron coming in, which if you're LPGA a sponsor with the as big as Chevron is great. The move I think the other besides losing the Dinoshare name. When the announcement to move it to Houston was made, it was a giant whiff to put it at the club at Carlton Woods. Huge, huge, huge. Cannot overstate that when you I mean, when you when you see the venues that majors are playing at, they're most they're supposed to make you say, whoa hell, Yeah, that's gonna be great. This maybe go to Google to look up what it is. What Yeah, yeah, so that has a major disappointment. And I know they have this contract for you know, to be there five more years, but it's it's just as frustrating that you have this sponsor with the means to take it anywhere, and you have a women's game that you can take majors to places that the men can't play, and we're at a housing development course that looks like lots of other housing development courses. So the two big misses there, I will you know, like credit where credit is due. Chevron had a ton of like you know, charitable features for the tournament this year. They're obviously committed with with you know, coming in in the contract for six years. But I just think that this discussion is going to continue for a while until it gets on the next level of the US Women's Open, the Women's British and the Women's PGA. The frustrating thing is that the formula is right there for Chevron, Like you said, the Women's British Open was embarrassingly not good event.

00:55:44
Speaker 1: Pretty recently, yes, yes, yeah, and then they started going to the right courses, yes, And now they're going to Walton Heath this year, which is going to be awesome. To talk about a historic course that the men can't go to really anymore exactly. They did for the British Masters recently, but not for major and that is going to be incredible.

00:56:04
Speaker 3: Yes, the the like. Just look at the courses and you see why there's a dividing line between the majors. I know that's not the one, you know, the most important factor, but it's very important.

00:56:15
Speaker 1: I would argue that it's just about the most important factor. Yeah, the venues matter here. I mean, there's as soon as the other the real women's major started going to Pebble Beach in Baltus Roll and Walton Heath, then things really turned around with them because there were some questions about the Women's PGA Championship for a while. There were some questions even about the US Women's Open for a while though that has long been the most established women's major. Venues matter deeply, and the Carlton Woods thing is baffling to me.

00:56:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's baffling. And I think if you look at Okay, those other three majors have a common denominator that there's a governing you know, these are the caretakers, if you will, of the game. The USGA the RNA and the PGA, and then you have Chevron and Evyon, which is you know, they've got the human Energy Company and a water company behind them. And it's like, you know, not only the course in the in the purses aren't matching up. They just don't fit. And it's it's I don't know, there's no easy fix. There's no you know, I wrote, there's no magic bullet. But like getting that purse up there with the other ones. I know, money doesn't buy you a major but it's five point one million. The other ones are upwards of eight and ten million, and you have a lot of room to improve from Carlton Woods. You can make a big leap changing up the venue. That's not I mean, it's not going to solve the problem, but it would it would do a lot of good.

00:57:52
Speaker 1: All Right, one more quick break and we'll be back with some storylines to track in the coming weeks. All Right, I wanted to take a quick break here to talk about Club TFE. This is the Frida Egg's membership. You can go to the Frida egg dot com slash membership to find out more information about what we're offering here. It's one hundred and twenty dollars a year, and we give you a lot of stuff in return for that. One of the things that we give you is a weekly course profile. These are extensive write ups photo essays about a variety of great golf courses. So let me just tell you about some of the ones that we've done recently. Just last week Andy wrote about Chicago Golf Club. It was really a sensational piece of writing and some of the imagery that we have for that course. I know I'm biased, but I think it's just awesome. The pictures that Andy has taken, the illustrations that Cameron Hurtis does for us really cool. We've also recently written about Ohoopy Match Club, common Ground Golf Course, Roaring Gap Club, Lasonia Links, the Country Club of Troy, TPC, Sagrass, Oakill Country Club, the East Course, the upcoming venue of the PGA Championship, Essex County Club, Old McDonald at Bandon Dune's. So, as you can hear, there's a mix that we're going for. There's the resort courses, there's the private courses, there's the public courses, affordable courses. So we're really trying to cover the full spectrum, but the priority is to find interesting golf architecture and dig as deeply into it as possible, while also giving you some imagery, some photos, some illustrations to enjoy. So that's one aspect of the Club TFE membership again, go to the Friday dot com slash membership to check it out. All right, Meg, storylines that we're tracking this week, what is your storyline?

00:59:59
Speaker 3: Myline? To continue with the LPGA route they you know, from a scattered start, they were kind of hitting our stride here after the first major. For Lily Avo, what a dream this. She goes to Wiltshire this week for the LA Championship. Wilsher was UCLA's home course from her college days, so should be a really cool, warm welcome for her back home. And we stay in California for the International Crown the following week. I'm super excited to see how that all comes together. Really hopeful coverage wise, We're going to get a solid broadcast and get to see all the different formats and get a good look at all the teams throughout the week.

01:00:40
Speaker 2: Uh.

01:00:40
Speaker 3: And then after that we go up to New Jersey for the Founder's Cup. That's an upper Montclair I really we talk about history. That's kind of the whole point of that event is to honor the history of the founders of the LPGA. So again hitting the stride here. It's also convenient it's at a sleep is time in the PGA tour. You know, Mexico this week up against Woolsher. I'll be tuning into Woolsher. I think Willis Fargo is next on the PGA. You know, that's International Crown weekend, so for all we kind of you know, railed on the beginning part of the schedule. This is kind of a sweet spot here. It should be really fun to watch the lousvou with a homecoming next week and International Crown. I mean that's I've had that mark since it was announced it's coming back. Super super excited for that for that to get here.

01:01:29
Speaker 1: Agreed. Yeah, And I want to see Nellie Korda and Gin Young Coe and Lydia Coe and Brooke Henderson really start to step up here, and Tittycoon too, I mean exciting young I believe twenty year old player and.

01:01:43
Speaker 3: So superstar potential, superstar.

01:01:45
Speaker 1: Potential, would would love to see it happen, and this is a good time for it to happen. It's a bit of a soft spot and the rest of the professional golf schedule and a good time for the LPGA Tour to really show it stuff. All right, So my story line is more of a summer long storyline, but I think that this is going to be or could be a big summer for creative public golf. So the park at West Palm Beach just opened, and you heard about that on the last episode of the Frida Egg podcast with Andy and Jim Wagner. So big deal there. You know, go to that podcast if you want to hear more about it. But in addition to that, we also have the Glen Golf Park in Madison, Wisconsin, which Michael and I talked about briefly in our conversation. That's going to have its first full season, and the Loop at Shaska in Shaska, Minnesota is going to reopen sometime in the late summer. This is another exciting public golf, small scale public golf project. So the Glen Golf Park, obviously, you know, it's going to be a great experiment in balancing golf with other uses of the same space, which is something that I think so many public courses should consider doing. And then the Loop at Shaska is a short course expressly designed for adaptive golfers. Benjamin Warren is the lead architect on the project, up and coming architect and some of the greens were actually shaped by Jimmy Craig, who is now working on the first course at Rodeo Dunes. And I'm eager first of all to see both of these courses in person. I want to try to make that happen, and second of all, just to hear how the experiments work out, whether these courses are going to be successful. There's a lot of creative energy in golf development and architecture right now, and because of capitalism, most of that energy is being devoted to private developments and high end resorts. But if the Glen Golf Park and the Loop at Shaska are successful, I wonder if we're going to see some of the ideas behind them become contagious, because there are some radical ideas here. A different vision for a golf course is evident in the Glen Golf Park and the Loop of Shaska. The access to the space, bringing in non golfers, bringing in adaptive golfers, making things extremely accessible. All of that stuff is really those are good messages to put out to the public about what golf is doing, and they're good ways to make projects happen because you're saying, we're trying to do something good for the community here, so you can get community buy in, and then sort of on the down low, you can sneak in some good architecture. You can sneak in some cool greens, you can sneak in some tree removal, some wide fair ways. All this stuff is possible to do. You can do this stuff and you don't have to sell it as nerdy, highbrow architecture. You can sell it as a project where we're bringing in the community and that can be genuine. That's not just a selling point. That's a big deal. But in the meantime you can do some cool architecture. And I think that that's what is really cool about both of these course projects, So the Glen Golf Park and the loop at Shaska and all also the park at West Palm Beach. I think those are exciting projects that you should track this summer.

01:05:06
Speaker 3: Will and I actually got to walk the park when we were down there for a quick trip and can echo everything Andy said. It's incredible what they've done, walked away just kind of kept saying wow to each other that they thought of everything done there. And it's really nice to see maybe trends moving in a different direction than they have in the past. And yeah, excited for all those projects.

01:05:29
Speaker 1: All right, Meg, thank you so much, Thanks Garrett. This episode of the Frida Egg podcast was produced and edited by Matt Rushius. Thank you, Matt. One great thing that you can do for the Friday Egg, aside from joining Club TFE, is simply to rate and review this podcast in iTunes. Tell us how you're reacting to the episodes, give us a rating, and that really helps us find new listeners and continue to expand what we're doing here. All right, thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back soon.