Leadership and Motherhood in the European Union: an interview with Sharon Van Herel

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode ninety. Today we're going to be talking with Sharon von Harrel, who is coming to us from the Netherlands, so our wonderful technology is putting us in touch there. She is an executive high up at a major insurance from there. So she's going to talk with us both about corporate life, about managing large numbers of people, and about sort of the Dutch part time culture and how she decided to do things a little bit differently. We're interested in hearing how people all over the world manage work and life. So anyway, we wanted to first start with somebody else who is taking on responsibilities and changing up her work, her different amount of part time. It's hardly even part time anymore, Sarah tell us about the evolution of the percentage. Yes, so I am going to be going from eighty percent to ninety percent in June. I am not going to go into super significant details because my contract's completely signed, but not all of the interested parties have all of the information yet, So I guess it's as much as I can really say about the breakdown of my work. But I guess I can say I'm going to be doing a little bit more leadership, have a little bit more flexibility, and I am taking less call That shouldn't really negatively impact any of my colleagues, because the idea would be that we would get another clinical person to make up for what I am not devoting to the clinical sphere, since part of my work will be in a different sphere. Anyway, it's all really good things. I'm very excited about it. I think my job, as I've continued to grow, has just I've been able to expand the areas that really fit my strengths and reduce the areas that I'm not as big of a fan of. And I think part of that is I'm lucky to be in an organization where these opportunities are there, and I'm just really excited. And what ninety percent means from a practical scenario is basically one half day off every other week or twenty six additional days off per year, and if you think about it, a fairly standard leave package, at least in my experience, is between you know, twenty five and thirty days off per year to use as one sees fit. That's about what we have. So I essentially have double leave, so I have the normal amount of PTO times to and then the rest of the time a'mout my job, and I think that is going to be enough for me, especially as as you know, Genevieve is going to be in school, So I don't even it's not even like there's some kids specific thing to be home for, even if I did feel like that was a necessity, and clearly I can't feel like that's that much of a necessity because I spend a lot of my mornings off doing podcast stuff and that's a choice and I enjoy it, and I spend other time with Genevieve, like I can go to Jimberree with her sometimes, but I don't spend every moment that I have off from my job doing things with my children, and so I guess I just I feel like this is going to work really well. I get a small pay increase, of course, which is nice, and yeah, I'm just really excited, and I think there will still be enough time to do the podcast. You know, we spend about half a day recording. It's like the behind the scenes look right now. Every couple of weeks, i'd say, right, Laura, I mean, I'm wondering if we could start doing more three first, where we do three episodes at once, just to increase our efficiency, although sometimes that can feel really like a long morning. Yeah, I think we stop doing that at one point because we're just like, that is true, Am I saying the same thing that I said two hours ago? But we're so good at this now, It's true, that is true. We do get better. Yeah, I'm up for throing three at a time, that's see what happens. I think there's still room in my life for that. And then as I reflected on that, I did start to feel like this it's not a job, because it's something that I really love to do, but this has been much more coming for me than from Laura. I felt like, maybe we do need to move in the direction of having some sponsors and getting something in exchange for the time that we put into this, because it's pretty real if you actually add it up. So maybe at some point you may hear some additional things in this podcast. Maybe you won't. We're looking into a number of options. We will. We've taken some of your feedback already, both I think on Laura's blog and maybe on Insta somewhere somewhere else. Anyway you can let us know what you think. But yeah, so that's where we are just to yeah, have have some sort of financial return on the time invested in and also knowing that it's a it's a you know, good podcast that we hope people will. We do think it's good, and part of it is maybe we'd like to see it grow. So number one, continue to please spread the word. We love when that happens. But number two, by professionalizing it a little bit, it might allow us to get more resources to spread the word a little bit better. So who knows, maybe this could actually help just get more involvement. Although we do cherish the listeners we already have and we feel lucky to have you all. Thank you. Definitely definitely looking to keep growing. So please tell your your friends that you found the perfect podcast, and I'm sure they'll be happy that you share that with them. Yeah. No, so it's very exciting going back up to ninety percent. But you thought it wouldn't quite work to do one hundred percent, and well, the biggest reason I felt like I couldn't do that is because I really do well, not just a podcast. I like being able to say to have pretty copious PCO so that when I have a kid event, I don't feel like I'm carving into work time. Now I probably will have more flexibility, and I know that other people probably would see things differently and feel just fine about it, and then they feel like, you know what, I'm going to work at night to make up for toever. But I guess I just want more margin, and I want the margin to be official. So I'm I think ninety percent is the right plus again with the podcast, and particularly if we do expand it. I certainly don't want to be seen as double dipping or spending official work time on this podcast, because that would not be appropriate and not be fair to anyone, so I think I need that dedicated time. Yeah. Well, it's very exciting. It's always exciting to see, you know, people's careers evolve and grow, and this podcast is going to be evolving and growing too. And so we'll be now talking with our guest about her career evolving and growing over time and how she came into a leadership role. So I'm really excited about that. Sarah and I are excited to welcome Sharon to the podcast. Sharon, can you introduce yourself to our listeners. Yes, hello, my name is Sharon van Hirel or in Dutch Charon von Hirol. I'm a thirty eight year old Dutch woman, as you can understand from what I previously said, and I live in Rotterdam, which is the second biggest city in my country. I'm married to Eric, who is a senior project developer for an energy company, and I'm also the mother of two kids. I have a son he's eight, and a daughter she's almost six. And on top of that, I'm also the managing director of an insurance company and currently heading around three hundred people. So that's basically my life, yeah, which is a full life lot going on. So tell us about your sort of career journey, because you know, I don't know if you grew up wanting to be in the insurance industry or this is something that came to you later, But how did you wind up in this position? Well, the fun part is nobody grows up thinking that he goes into the insurance industry. This is always a joke we always make. I grew up and I definitely wanted to be a lawyer, and that's exactly what I did. So after my high school, I trained as a lawyer. I went to university to law school, and afterwards I trained as a lawyer and I enjoyed the profession very much. And I was in that profession for a little over five and a half years. And then at one point I was working a lot for insurance companies and they invited me over to there were my clients, and I was there to give a presentation. And the moment I stepped into this particular insurance company, I felt, Wow, this is a cool company and nice people, intelligent and nice work that they do. And in my mind I was already doubting a little bit the law profession at that time, because if you're a lawyer, and especially when you're trained after a few years, you're very expensive per hour and you're basically paid to defend black or white if you work in litigation, and that's really not my style. Ultimately, I'm a very pragmatic person. And when I went to this insurance company, they were very opening. I'm welcoming to me and they said, well, you know, would you like to have a job here? And there was like half a joke because I thought, no way that a senior lawyer will will transfer to our industry because it's a lot that will less pay and less status, et cetera. And exactly at that point in time, I was very open to the idea. So I said, well, let me think about it, and after one night of sleep, I thought, yeah, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to take the plunge and go right in. So that's how it happened for me. And did you imagine that you'd, well, I want to hear more of your journey. But did you at that time think well, I could get increasing levels of leadership and I bet I could grow there or were you just sort of like, eh, throw my hat in the ring. Let's see what happens. Actually, yeah, that's what happened exactly. I didn't go there, you know, with a predefined idea about me going into management or anything. It was very intuitive decision at the time. I just felt that I wanted to make the switch, and this was the perfect opportunity. Was again in my hometown, and I had quite a commute for that working for the law firm. I didn't really feel in a good place there anymore. So when this was offered, I thought, let's just switch and see what life brings. And I didn't regret it at all. There was a big shock at first because I switched to this profession and then literally the whole work life balance thing changed dramatically for me, which is you know, inherent to the insurance industry, or maybe it's more inherent to the law profession. That I went to work there and then at five pm in the afternoon was like, where's everybody going? You know, what's happening here? And for me, after you know, more than five and a half years and university and all the stuff before that, it was really weird. So I took up several hobbies. At the first year, I was really amazed by my freedom and I had some time for hobbies that was brilliant. And then I said, well, that's a postgraduate degree. And then I had my son. And when I returned from my first maternity leave with my son, I was like, Okay, now it's time for stuff to start happening again. And at that point, the insurance company I was working for was being taken over by a larger insurance company, which is where I'm working today, and a lot of middle managers left the company because they could not agree to this move where we're afraid of their position or whatever. And I just was like, well, I'm just going to raise my hand because why not. And that was very funny because they were like, oh, yeah, we never thought of you because you are the latest edition, you are one of the youngest, you just return from your maternity leave. But well we're a full blown crisis here, so yeah, sure, why not. So this is how I became a manager. Was not really a predefined idea that was written down somewhere in my five year plan, not at all. No, Sometimes raising your hand is just what it takes. And yeah, a near time of crisis in the company and there's somebody who's going to step in. I say, go for the person who steps in, so you know, real quick, because we want to clear up something for our We have probably majority American listeners who always think that like all of Europe has like two years of maternity, which is not actually true in the Netherlands, right, you guys are one of the shorter ones in Europe. Right, what's the standard there? The Senate the sixteen weeks and usually you take four weeks or six weeks before that, and the remaining weeks that you have left out a ten or twelve is after you have the baby, so it's quite it's four months, and I think that's very you know, convenient, because I know and I compare this to other countries around US, where the maternity leaves are much longer, and it's actually much more difficult for women to return because if you leave for a year, well then your employer might have some sort of preconceived idea that you will not be in for promotion soon, or it happens. I see this happening to women, especially in Germany because my company is originally German, and I talk to a lot of German colleagues, and there the maternity leave is much longer, but it also disqualifies you sometimes or puts your career on hold for a longer time, whereas with us, well, what is sixteen weeks? You know, it's like a little bit of a sabbatical and then you're back again. So yeah, that's cool. That's pretty much a lot of Americans. Yeah, yeah, it is pretty close. And my face, I made a face. We're doing this via video about the pre maternity part because it's such an American thing to like have your water break at work, and I cannot imagine to like leave four weeks before and put my feet up. I probably would go into labor if that had happened. But that's that's so interesting. I mean, it is a time that your body's under a lot of stress. It probably makes sense, it probably helps. I would love to see data on whether there are you know, that is one factor that might improve infant mortality and infant morbidity and all kinds of things. So fascinating. Yeah, but you know, so the Dutch maternity leave is on the shorter side in the EU. But you guys have a sort of unique aspect of your women and work culture that you know, you would explain to me, can you explain that to listeners in terms of yeah, for sure, well, typical Dutch, we are part time society. It's it's part time paradise here in terms of especially for women. Seventy four percent of Dutch women and I mean all working age women, so not even just moms, they work part time. So it's like a lifestyle choice. We can obviously afford to do it. It has grown that way. And I even remember my mom, you know, having me in the eighties meant that she was fired from her job. There was you know, that just happened. That was quite normal at the time. So we come from a situation where working full time for women, especially if you have kids, is not the standard. So that's quite a challenge sometimes. Also for me, when I had my son, it was obvious, it was not even it was a no brainer for me. Of course I would start working part time. Now I was ambitious, so I kept at it for four days a week. But around me people were making choices of maybe three days a week or two days a week, and that puts us at a serious disadvantage if you look at leadership positions, because this is something and that's also shown in statistics. Once you got part time, it's very difficult to scale up again because and even why because we're like, hey, it's great, you know, it's literally the best of both worlds sometimes, but there is a downside to that. If you don't stay in the workforce for four days, then it's very difficult to be considered for a leadership a position later on. And on the other side of the medal, I use it as my advantage as well, because it was completely accepted that I went back to work for four days a week. Nobody frowned upon that they would have if I would have come back for five days a week. And at the same time, it never hindered my career because I was still able to become a team manager, first of an eleven people team. Then I got promoted to heading an entire claims department sixty people, and now I was promoted to being the well the managing director slash CEO of a company. At the time, still on the four day a week schedule, which by the way, has changed in this position because now I'm working five days a week, although I still stick to the plan. On Fridays, Friday is my day traditionally to take care of the kids. Now they go to school, but I still leave the building at five minutes to three just before school ends because it's my day and everybody you know doesn't mind. So that's that's the other side of the metal. For women, it is accepted to do it in an alternative way. So it's interesting because I think you had mentioned that your husband he didn't feel that. There's not the same sort of assumption that men will work per time, even though you were I think out earning him. It was a sense that you would go to four days or three days or whatever, that that's the assumption, even though you were earning, earning more than he was. So it's a very strong cultural norm, right, It's a very strong cultural thing. And of course when we were you know, first in love, etcetera, we talked about the future and it was definitely, oh, you will do four days. I will do four days, you know, ideal worlds, and then reality hits and you're like, well, but of course I will do four days. I was like, no discussion, not even that he wanted it. I wanted to do it that way because I didn't see anyone else doing something else. So that's what I did. And then financially it didn't make sense. We had grandparents, they were very eager to babysit. We have good daycare, so we were like, well, you just keep at it for five days a week. But that did change when my son went to school and the logistics became a little bit more complicated when he was four, and I also woke up and I thought, why why do we actually do this arrangement because it doesn't really make sense, and financially we can also do it differently, but also from a balanced perspective, Why am I the only one you know working four days a week? This should be more equal, And we changed it, and I must say more and more it's accepted for men to work four days a week. There's no steady data on whether or not that hampers any career advancement, but so far for him it's worked out brilliant. And actually his free day is our free afternoon these days is Wednesday afternoon when the kids are off from school and many dads are on the school on the playfield on Wednesday afternoon. It's really like the daddies do have coffee dates, et cetera. In the more so, more and more normal but again for a certain you know, income group. It's not for everyone, of course, because it costs money. So yeah, of course. And so tied with that though, I mean, what are the Dutch kind of daycare availability and is it then structured on the assumption that mom is only working three or four days a week and for a certain number of hours. I remember that there was one kid in our daycare that came there for five days a week and everybody was like, oh my god, that's so shameful. So honestly, we're very bad in that perspective because everybody is working three or four days and never you know, taking their kids to daycare for I think four days is even in an exception, because many people build up a schedule made of a few days of daycare. It's not cheap, so that's an investment. There's always one grandparent at least, you know, willing to cover one of the days in the week, and then there's mom, usually mom at least for one day a week, and maybe even dad. So it's always a mixture of different things. And taking your kids today care for five days a week is really an exception in my country. Interesting, But so then you I mean, at some point, I think, you know, we had talked about this. You are sitting there and saying, I'm doing housework on Fridays, Like, why could I just not be at work? I mean, honestly exactly, And so this happened to me. Yeah, so you decided to go back to five days a week. And did you get any pushback on that? I mean from extended family, from your community, from people, I mean, even though clearly, you know, running your insurance company, it's probably higher economic value than you washing your flowers on Fridays. But did you get pushback on this idea? Yes? What happened is that when my daughter went to school, which is now almost two years ago, after the summer she I was having these fridays off, and I had all sorts of romantic ideas about yoga, book reading, et cetera. Old stuff that I do anyway, but this was now to have on Friday morning. What actually happened is that I started running around for groceries so that everything would be prepped for the weekend. You know, really horrible mistake. Additional housework, which I honestly don't need to do because I've outsourced that for a long time already so this Friday was not really working. And then I decided, because I was doing an international project and not really getting to that in the other four days, let's just go into the office, you know, voluntarily doing some hours and working on this project because I'm really dedicated. And then when they offered me this job, I was like, I'm definitely coming back on Fridays now because you know, actually I'm here all week anyway, why not get paid for that as well? And I think it also fits my current responsibility in terms of pushback. Actually, since I've had kids, you know, four days a week and assuming a leadership role, first a small role, people say, oh yeah, very cool for you. Then assuming a larger role at a young age, building a huge department, well huge for Dutch standards, sixty people a claims department. People are like, oh my god, you're so brave. You're doing it all. You have small kids and you have this job. And I was always looking at them a little bit like, are you insulting me right now? Because you know, for me, my life is just working very well actually, And especially when they then learn that you read books, that you run a marathon, and that you do all this additional stuff. They're always looking like she must be hiding skeletons somewhere. You know, her marriage must be bad, or her kids must be neglected, or you feel this. It's sometimes it's real interest and other times I think your question is just asking for you know, what is going on for real? Now, just be honest with me, and especially in this job. Now I work full time and people, well they know me by now. You know, it's becoming a thing that I'm also an advocate for this lifestyle, and I say, guys, you don't need to miss out on anything. And of course it all depends on and this is always my story to everyone. It's about creating a life that works for you. Now. For me, logistics, for example, are a big thing. I live in the street where my company is located, so it's literally eight hundred meters. My kids school is a street behind my office, which I'm very lucky to get a position there, so basically I can do the school runs myself. If there's something going on, I'll be there within three four minutes. It's perfect like this, and I do understand that it would be different if I haven't a commuter for an hour or more, but this is the life I created for myself and that's why it works so well. So no, not suffering, even though some people are suggesting that I definitely am suffering or somebody is suffering. Yeah, I am so comforted to hear. I don't know that the universality of some of these things because I've definitely had such a similar experience talking to people, and because I did go part time and now I'm ramping it up a little bit. It's just I think this will resonate with a lot of our listeners as well. What we're going to say, Laura, Oh no, I was just saying, So, Sharon, I mean you were taking on your bigger leadership role, and at first the leaders under you, so you're meddal managers under you were all men, right, because there is a glass ceiling issue here of like who winds up in management. It's not the people working three days a week, as you said, And so you first started taking over and all the leaders under you are men. So that how did that go? And then you change things? I believe I changed things around a little bit. What happened is when I came into the management team as a claims director almost four years ago, I was the only female at the time, and I didn't think anything about you know, about that. I was like, well, you're just you're doing what you need to do. You're surviving in this environment, and you know, people are nice. There was nothing really going on. But at some point when I assumed this role, we also had some company shifts and I had the chance to restructure the company and to also create some new management positions and change around the team. And of course, ultimately, if I think about it, I'm doing what other people are doing, which is probably hiring people that look a little bit like me. And that ended up in having a management team now which consists of four men and four women, including me, And I must say, now the team is complete. We've started in this setup first of January, and now I'm experiencing what it means to work in such a team. Because of course I read all the studies about diversity, and I went to talks about that, and I always thought, I don't know what to think about that. I see it happening, but at the same time, you know, should I take a stand or not? And then it happened in some sort of organic way. I hired a few women, another person in my company made a few hires for the management team, and now we're in the setup and it's brilliant. It's completely different from what I had before, and I think it's a brilliant mix. But still we need to pay attention to this subject because you know, making a team of just six or seven or eight women doesn't work as well. I truly believe in the combination we currently have, which is a little bit by accident and a little bit by purpose because I'm a woman. I'm a woman, I hire women, and yeah, it's more easy to happen to me. So yeah, I'm happy in this setup. That's awesome. So managing three hundred people is a lot of people, and so I imagine part of that is that, you know, many people want your time for one reason or another, some crisis or like let's get in front of Sharon because that's that's you know, that's exciting. So how do you sort of structure I mean, we definitely want to hear a day in the life, but as you think about how you structure your time so you can get focused work time and deal with the needs of the three hundred people who might want access to you at various points and how do you how do you structure that? Well, I have a few direct reports, of course, not just heading those three hundred people myself, but luckily my intermediate to manages there as well. I speak to all of my direct reports on Monday. That's always my internal meeting day. I try to structure my days in such a way and I always have a few well, let's say, ninety minutes in the morning after I come in to just do some work before or I go into these talks and you know, accumulate a lot of action points and stuff to do, and then the energy, the engine really starts running with me. So I have a crazy meeting schedule, but it's very well structured, and you know, one big thing that I do and I think, Laura, it's also part of your idea that you eat well previously also mentioned in your books. Around your podcast, I now introduced, like let's say two months ago, a weekly review on Friday. And I used to do this on Sunday night, you know, and then I made the switch to Friday afternoon, and meaning that if I have a crazy, crazy week, I still have this time on Friday. It's completely blocked and usually I really take like two hours and I completely you know, look at my meeting notes, my action point, my plans for the week that they come out. You know, what happened to my week? What is scheduled for next week? Is there any upcoming problem there or conflict or stuff that I should read? And this makes all the difference to have a little bit of time in the morning for myself to just get ready for the d and also to have this this wrap up on Friday to free up also a lot of mental space in my head honestly, to just have some closure at the end of the week and make sure that everything's dealth with or we'll be dealth with next week. So yeah, big on that. Now you are speaking our languages. Literally, planning is our love language. Suber here too, all right, So Sharon, why don't you go ahead and talk us through a day in the life then, so maybe maybe a week a day this week to give us an insight into what your life looks like. Yeah, yes, well I have a very you know, steady rhythm. So what I do and I started this end of twenty fourteen. I started getting up earlier because I'm a very much morning person. Hello, Sarah, and I you know at the time my kids were younger, my daughter was one year old, and I really noticed that, you know, there was little time for me anymore. You just you know, you wake up, you start servicing everybody, You go to work, you come home, you service people again, and then by the time it's a thirty, just I'm done. So I started getting up earlier just to reclaim some time for me. So I stuck to this habit ever since, tried at various times, but now I end up at five thirty, not to prostrate too many other people in my household about going to bed to early at night. So it's five thirty for me. I get up and I really take some time for me in terms of, you know, writing some stuff down, taking out my planner, and looking at the day, like do I have all my to dos? There is my schedule, you know, still what I wanted to be. I'm missing anything or any fleeting thoughts that I really need to grasp now before you know, the day starts. So that's what I do from let's say five thirty to six. Then from six to six thirty, I usually literally sit down with my well first and probably only copy of the day and a good book, because what I've learned, I love reading and if I don't do it at this crazy hour, and my friends really laugh at me for this, but still I read a lot of books, and this is how I get it done. So six six thirty, sometimes six forty. If I find it difficult to quit, I'm reading and you can call me crazy, but this is how I get fifty more book or more books done a year. So then of course, hitting the shower, getting dressed, getting people out of their beds around seven, and then we have a family breakfast, making lunch box and stuff like that, and we leave the house around a twenty because school starts at eight forty five and I think doors open somewhere around eight thirty five, so we're usually there, well, I must say almost every day we're there on time. And then it's nice because if we have this ten minutes in the school, then I can go in with the kids, bring them to their classrooms, check out, you know, what they're working on, or talking to the teacher. And then the bell actually rings at eight forty five, and that means that I'm in the office at eight fifty and if I stop for a coffee on the way, which sometimes happens. Then it's well eight fifty five, so I actually really start my office day at nine, and I wrap it up around six a little bit before or a little bit after, and really well, since my home is also five minutes from here, it is a really family time from six to eight, and honestly, after eight, nothing much happens because that's just not me. So probably I'm you know, wrapping up some stuff, cleaning up some stuff, and then around eight thirty it's like either I read if that's what we want to do, or we watch a TV show, or we talk about some stuff, you know, me and my husband. It's usually a pretty short night, so somewhere around nine thirty maybe ten, but then it's really wild then let's go after So this is you know, a day in the life of Sharon. But I think, you know, as you were say in yeah, but it's even interesting if you look at it from a weekly perspective. You know, sometimes it's but that's like once every two weeks. Of course, there's an evening engagement, which always you know, messes up my schedule, but I'm fine. And if you look at the weekly schedule from a caretaking perspective, I'm very lucky to have my mom. She's in my house for eight years already every Monday, so she used to take care of the kids on Monday, and now that they go to school, she still comes, but she comes a little bit later and she picks them up at three. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, it used to be daycare days, but now that the kids both go to school, I've actually hired my nieces who study in this city, and they are a little pool of babysitters, so they pick up the kids after school on Tuesday and Thursday. Wednesday, as I said, is my husband's afternoon, which is a long afternoon because it starts at twelve thirty already when school's out, so it's like he has a very crazy afternoon. And I take Fridays, which is pretty relaxe actually because it only starts at three and I'm already winding down towards the weekend. So I love having this Friday part for me. So, yeah, this is what my life looks like in a nutshell sounds awesome. Yeah, yep, Sarah, Did you have any more questions or you no. I just have to say that was one of my favorite day in the lifes ever. Know, it's very charming, it's wonderful. But you guys walk to places like you don't even need to bike places. I know that. You know Netherlands, it's always the biking everywhere. We bike a lot, We bike a lot, okay, but but you're so close you don't even need to do that though, right you can know, but then we need to leave earlier. So what I do biking is just big. And if you look at me biking sometimes, especially when they have you know, gym, classroom practice, et cetera, it's like and now they have tennis as well on Tuesdays. It's like me in a bicycle, one kid in front, one kid in the back, and I have this crate on the front end and it has my very expensive work back piled under, you know, all sorts of tennis records and shoes and stuff like that. It's really horrible to look at me in the morning. Uh b take a picture of that set up and send it to us. That sounds like a great Instagram shot for this episode. Yeah, that's the thing. And you just like bike in your work clothes, right, like you know, this is what everyone does. Like it's not seen as you know, nobody's in their spandex or anything. This is just like, you know, that's how you get to work. So I did quit. I did quit the high heels because I remember my first years with the Maxicozi baby, you know, baby in a small chair. I used to go on my heels to daycare and I was like, I'm balancing with this baby on what am I doing? And and then I fell once and I thought, why didn't I switch like you guys do in the US. And I always see in London as well, switch to sneakers for God's sake. So that's what I'm doing right now. And my shoe collection is at the office here, so I'm learning. And yes I do have some very tight fitting skirts. Yeah, it's horrible to see me at the traffic light because it's not really decent. But okay, but you know everyone does it, so it's a it's not you know, the the American Americans always ask things like that, how on earth could you bit in your work clothes. It's like, well, you know, apparently do it. A million people do it, so you can you can, well, well, this is that we do our Love of the week at the end of the second Sarah and I can go first if you want to, just you know, quick think about it while we're going. So, Sarah, you're your love. We've probably featured way too many chocolate related products, but I found a really new favorite. Family O A R A KAA is the brand. They have a sea salt bar that is like actually like salty, like full on and you know in your land. I don't know about Netherlands. I used to love the salty liquorice. I think you can only get it like in Scandinavia. And anyway, I love salt, and this bar is actually like salty enough for me. I should actually just buy regular Doc chocolate like sprinkled krinkle salt on it, like that would probably work. But anyway, this one's really good. That's cool. Well, my love of the week is Wander Beauty Dualist Concealer, which is another in my Instagram obsession. It was advertised on Instagram and it looked good on the models, so I was like, well, let me click on that and buy it. But I actually liked it. It works better than a lot of other ones I've tried. It actually seems to look more like it evens out your skin tone and stuff like that. So I bought one and I liked it, so then I went and bought another one, so when the first one's out, I'll have the second one. So Wander Beauty Duelist Concealer. If you're ordered this today, I know, well, if you're on Instagram and you have a similar profile to me, you're probably getting ads for it anyway. So all right, Sharon, what do you have for us? My love of the week is actually tennis, and I'll tell you why because I'm moving house in a few months and I was cleaning up some closets and I found this list that I wrote down on my honeymoon sitting on some Australian island, and in two thousand and eight, by the way, this was and I wrote down after my honeymoon, I want to start and learn how to play tennis. That's two thousand and eight. Then I found another list during my maternity really twenty eleven, after my maternity leave, I wanted to start playing and learn how to play tennis. So last year, me and one of my best friends, we you know, we subscribed, but there was no convenient time for us, so we thought, well forget it. And now this year you know, my kids are getting very good at playing tennis, and I thought, you know, it's now or never. So again, me and my friend we subscribed and we were like, can you please put us in a convenient class, And then they had only a time slot Tuesday night seven to eight, which if you just listen to my schedule, really sucks. Means running home, eating very quickly, saying goodbye to family time in order to go and play tennis. But we said, you know, let's do it because it's now or never, and we're really enjoying ourselves because well, hitting this ball and thinking about what you're doing with your body basically, you know, removes any thoughts from work or otherwise. So my love of the week I just had my second class definitely tennis. Totally cool. You're finally doing it's been on the list for eleven years and it's getting off the list now or actually actually doing it. That's wonderful. Well, Sharon, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. You're welcome. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. So today's question comes from a listener who has been watching the show. This is us, So if we're recording this long before this is airing, So hopefully you are caught up now our podcast listeners. But if you are a big This is US fan and are not caught up, maybe you want to just turn the podcast off right now. Sarah was upset that there was a spoiler alert in this questions to one of the emails, So yes, if you're sending a question, perhaps don't put show spoiler spoilers in there anyway, Stacy s I've been watching This is Us and I'm not sure if either of your fans. Yes, Sarah is by the way, but what storyline in particular has a lot to do with time management and the roles in families, and it made me think of a question for you. Guys. Randall and Beth are both trying to make two careers taking care of their three daughters work. Randall has been elected a city councilman in a Philadelphia, which is a two hour commute from where they live. I don't understand that because I thought councilmen had to live in their district. So maybe I'm just missing something in the building in the district, building in the district. I was like, normally we don't allow that. I know, Philly is like corrupt in all sorts of ways, but like was that part of the plot? Okay? Anyway? And Beth has found a passion for dance and is starting a new career as a dance teacher. They're busy nights and weekends. They argue about childcare because Beth's salary isn't necessary going to cover what they need to pay. Our listener says, I want to yell at the screen that they need to take into account both of their wages, right, Laura, But as of this week's episode, the bigger issue is that Beth feels like she always bends to accommodate Randall's goals and this time she doesn't want to be the flexible one. So that brings me to my question. Both of you have big careers, as do your husbands. Do you think you primarily have to sacrifice more of what you want to do so they can do their jobs. I know Sarah is on primary parent duty during the week and opted to do an eighty percent or now ninety percent schedule to have more flexibility. Laura, you mentioned something about your book being named in the top fifteen all time time management books, but then also waiting for your kid's bus and wondering if any other authors on the list had ever had to do that. If you do think that you seem to bend more to accommodate family, then your husband's do. Do you think it's okay? I know you've discussed the podcast that each spy spouse might not be doing an equal amount of childcare, but maybe one spouse is doing all the home improvement projects or another aspects. Are we each playing to our strengths or could women in general work even more equity between spouses? All right, well that was a that was a great question because I was reading it, reading it, try to read it through, and I was stumbling over some of the words. But yeah, all right, sorry, Yeah, that is the only show that I watched regularly other than well, I'm not caught up in Crazy ex Girl Farm, but that would be like my number two. That's pretty much it for TV. So you hit the nail on the head there. So the plotline is fascinating to me. And interestingly, and this is not answering your question, but for it's a very popular so so others may have thoughts on this as well. Interestingly, I found myself very frustrated at Beth the mom, not because of the genders. I actually flipped the genders in my head because if Beth had been the one that had taken a political position and then her husband decided that, well, you know, I'm kind of between jobs, but I've got to be a football coach right now. I have to start my football coaching career. I cannot wait one second. And I don't care that you've taken this big deal in office. I would be so pissed at him. So the gender flip in this case helped me realize that, you know, maybe I actually felt for him more than I felt for her. Not about the childcare issue. I totally agree with you that I felt like the episode, they're sort of demon ignizing childcare more than they need to, and they're also treating it as very black and white, like, oh, well, you're gone in nights and weekends, so you're not there for the family at all. Well, maybe that means she's there every morning. Maybe that means that she's only gone part of the weekends. I think that strategic use of childcare could probably fill in the gaps. I mean, their kids are much older more than they think, so I guess the idea that that was sort of not a viable option rubbed me the wrong way. But then, ironically or not ironically, but I guess, counter to what a lot of people experience who listened to the show, I was more frustrated with her than I was with him. My answer in my own family, you know, I think we've actually made a really amazing journey. I don't know husband listens to this podcast. I don't know if that Josh like, there are some things that I do more of, but it's very much thought through in our household. I don't feel like I typically do more than I want to be doing, if that makes sense. I don't know that I've reached some sort of nirvana, But upon reflection, I feel like we've gotten to a really good place. And I do feel like it took time, and it took my husband questioning a lot of things. But yeah, I think that it's not something to necessarily silently put up with. I think that you need to find out what works for you. You You need to keep the lines of communication open. You may accept that the answer is not equality, because in our family, we're actually maybe moving more towards that. As my husband's made a lot of effort to be homewore, but sometimes it's not. Some weeks it's all me, but it's like, okay, But then I've spoken with my husband and said, Friday morning, I'm going to this boutique workout class and you're going to cover me, and he'll do that, And so I don't necessarily care that I was more in charge more time if I get my priorities and needs met. So yeah, I guess that's my answer. But then again, I don't know. Unlike Laura, I don't have a top ten book, and I know that my job is more flexible than my husband's and that's just kind of the way it is. So yeah, that was just a funny moment. So Entrepreneur magat, I mean, they had this piece there's like the top fifteen time management productivity books of all time. And the funny thing about the list is that there are fourteen books by men and one book by a woman, which that is amazing. But I'm like, just proud of you. That's amazing, Like nobody looks, but that's what kills me. Nobody looked at list. Listen said, what, maybe there are other women who have written amazing books that we should also look at you know, it's just I think sometimes men read books by men and assume they're for everybody, whereas a book written by a woman is not for everyone because it talks about woman things that are somehow not applicable. I don't know, and like, well and again, some men have made them not applicable by deciding that it's not their job to worry about these things. But I think, you know, as one of our more controversial guests, Jamah Hartley pointed out, like that's not necessarily good for anyone. Yeah, But then the particular thing that got me that my husband was texting this around, this list around to family members. And at the time, our children had a half day from school that day, so I was home to get the kids off the bus because our nanny was off with the four year old somewhere else right, like, you know, so we'd arrange this this way i'd be home. But then the phone rang and I get it and it's the school basically saying there's a problem, your streets closed. I hadn't gone outside and seen that, so your kids can't get off the bus. So I had to go wait for the bus at an intersection somewhere else so that I could get them off and safely get them to my house. And I was kind of thinking, well, what would happen if I hadn't picked up the phone. I mean, I don't know what would happen if I hadn't picked up the phone, but you know, so I'm standing there at the intersection waiting for this bus at one o'clock in the afternoon on a work day, seeing on my phone. I'm like, you know, top fifteen productivity books of all time with fourteen men who I'm guessing, I'm just guessing are not out at one pm waiting for the school bus on a workday. You know, that just means that your time management is that much better that you're able to not only have that book but also wait for the bus, also wait for the bus. Yes, awesome stuff. I don't know. I you know, I have not necessarily you know, I try to be careful of what I say on this podcast. I have not necessarily made my piece entirely with the way things are in a household. And again, like Sarah, I think they've gotten better. And I think what happened at the beginning is there were certain assumptions and there were assumptions on both of our parts. Partly it's that my husband is a reasonable amount older than I am. So when he became a parent for the first time, he was almost thirty nine years old, he had been working for what seventeen years as not having children. You know, I was not, you know, I got pregnant for the first time at age twenty seven, Like I didn't have year of non kid, a big pre kid, professional kid, professional somewhat but not as much. Somewhat but not not nearly as much. And and so you know, he had sort of ways he was used to doing things, and none of this had ever been built with kids in mind. Also, you know, I did not grow up with things like Nanny's that it didn't even occur to me that that's what we should do, even though now it seems blindingly obvious. And the amount of support I have now and he has now because it's for both of us, it's just infinitely better than it was at the beginning there. And that is something that I have had to grow into realizing that we needed to do. And one of the reasons I talk about it all the time on this podcast is because I want other people to know that this is something you may need to do. And if you have grown up in a very sort of solidly you know, middle middle class existence, and at times my parents were not even that. So you know, it's like you you don't know this and you may need to learn that. So, you know, we I enrolled my old my oldest son and Daycaren. That turned out not to be a great thing for you know, when you have one parent who's got a job that's a certain way and requires a lot of travel, and you know, yours seems more flexible, even though ultimately you have to still put in the work. So we've you know, we've thought a lot about this, and over time it's definitely gotten better as we've gotten more support. And also that I you know, have been better about saying, you know, what is acceptable and what is not and what I you know, require in order to feel like like things are better. Because I agree. It's like, you know, you don't want to always be the person bending because that makes for relationship that might involve resentment. Yeah, and I think you know, there's it's easy to fall into these roles, and partly it is because you know, many women do wind up marrying guys who are, for instance, slightly older than them, which then means that they may have more experience, so they may be earning more because of that. Sometimes it's him earning a little more than you. Is kind of a dangerous place because then it's it looks like you are the one who should automatically give. Or if you have chosen a job and of course that's going to compound it, it's going to compound itself. Or if you've chosen a job that's slightly more flexible, because in the back of your mind you're thinking, well, I should have flexibility because this is important for other things I want to do in life. And he hasn't because he hasn't grown up thinking he should. Well, then you know, again you're going to wind up being the one bending. Or you know, there's just the cultural narratives too. I mean, women don't grow up with the story that earning money is how I contribute to my family. I think a lot of women grow up with the story that being a you know, in their caretaker time with the children, physically with the children, the children, cleaning the house while the children are at school, Well, y's how you contribute cookies so that you have homemade cookies to present them when they get home from school. I mean back in the day, it wasn't even FaceTime with your kids. And you've looked at time data now people say then their kids on the bike all day and you come home for yeah, important tasks that somehow either nobody does anymore or their outsourcing and waxing the kitchen floor exactly that lovely tip I found in one of the nineteen sixties Good Housekeepings of describing exactly how you could use a butter knife to properly spread the waxing wax on the waxer so you could wax your floor. Exactly. Why that's you know, and it was it was produced. It was given sort of as a time management tip, right, which is funny just if you think about it. So, yeah, but men grow up with the story that that's how they contribute and women don't. You know, women think time, men think money, And so in his mind, like going to work is how he's contributing to his family. And we see that all the time and the questions we get from listeners. So I think, you know, we just can always evolve and grow and you know, ask for what we need and make sure that we're getting what we need. And sometimes it will be your partner doing it and sometimes it won't. And understand that, you know, probably it will be a journey. And remember things can change from year to year. You know, it's going to depend on your job situation, your job options, the ages of your kids, you know, financial situations. So don't just take one situation and assume that that's the way it has to be forever. Continue to revisit, continue to refine exactly. All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. Great listener question about this is us So sorry to anyone who is looking to watch that episode later and didn't get to turn off this podcast in time. We don't give away too much. We've also been talking with Sharon von Harrell about climbing up the ladder at the insurance industry and how things are done in the Netherlands, so that's been great too. So we'll be back next week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.