Dalton Scale 2022: Finding a New Prime Meridian

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Speaker 1: Be Around with the NFL podcast has not considered trading for Baker Org from the Chris Westling podcast studio. It's around the NFL. I'm Dan Hansis. I'm in a studio filled with some heroes, Greg Rows, withal Mark Sessler sitting to my right. Don't you dare call him Pat, Patrick Claybon. What's up? Everybody? You can call me whatever you want. All right, I'm glad to be here. I'll take it. I got paper in my hand. This is crazy. Dan likes using unpopular ways to say people's names. He likes calling him Pat Claybon. He likes called me Greggy, which only called west unpopular. It's almost like a there's like a negative connotation to that. It's more just like more off the grid, like a lesser alias. Even lesser is kind of negative way look at it. It's just more like off the beaten path of how the person is addressed. It was at the point though, because again these text conversations that bubble up during the weekend, Uh, you were so apologized for. No, no, no no, they're perfectly pleasant. It's just that I don't always track them as carefully as I would if you know, right before a burning work meeting or something, and it's like, oh, let's have Pad on the show. And I spent a big chunk of yesterday thinking that we were having Rhodo Pat, who's been on our show before, to join us for the QB debate, so which he would have been great on them. He would have done a fantastic But I think we've got our guy right here. Shout out to Pat Darty. Yeah, shout out to Pet who goes bo Pet which is but it's not a called San Patrick. Yeah, it's a it's a not lesser. But Dan would never talk about Revenge of the Fifth. He would say episode three, I have no idea. Yeah, I mean he wouldn't do either, but yes, um, all right, save it for the spot podcast. Alright, that'll just a needle right anyway. He he knows so much more than he lets stuff like Dan definitely has a Bill Bell check. Talking about my face vibe whenever start as my face Honestly, Um, I've said it to you, Mark, I have not seen the films. I maybe saw them when I was four or five, the initial ones, and then I saw Fantom Medicine. That's you. It's like the saying I don't eat French food because the one time I went and had food at a French restaurant, I was poisoned. Because fantom menace is the equivalent of that. Like, but also we don't even I haven't seen any of them other than as a kid. I I and I don't defend more than about eight hours of the entire product. That's the thing that I get annoyed by. It's um, I have a I have institutional knowledge just because you guys won't shut up about it for thirty five straight years. And by you guys, I mean well you guys, yes, but the rest of America in the world as well. You're are pop cultural liaison with a massive blind spot to one of the biggest events an American cinema history. It's why Mark always wants Pat on the show to even out number I'll take it anytime I can shoehorn five minutes. I should say I don't. That's not a self I've never said that. I am the pop culture savant of this show. I have a very I'm passionate, you said of the entire NFL media group at one point that was sort of where you were going with your injectory. All end around and scores being that was that was a an interest of you. You like to blend the pop culture with football and sport. I never said I am the voice of the show for pop culture that not of this show. Poisting that upon. I meant more of NFL media, larger king this little thing. No, so you bring up Star Wars. Yeah, this is my fault because we talked um I will and I have said one of those dope movies. I said to you and Zumwald, I'll watch it with you, right, which me, you're overrating my interest in in in the whole thing too. So no, I'm being foisted into a position of like I've already told you what I feel about this. Greg is falling asleep right now. He doesn't wants to move on anyway. I'm just saying, like someone that can compare and contrast different Carrie Fisher biographies are probably in it at the high level that Dan is insane, which is that's your opinion, which is fine. I don't want you ever to feel uncomfortable about it, because I am Actually there is more nuance to it. That's all tell me about it. I'm telling you that I just think about always been attractive to me. I think they've largely failed in massive ways. All right, let's get into today's show because we've got a very important program. I'm leaving. I cannot believe we would be caught up with that madness when we have come together for the return. Hit it great. Now you chopped off my hand. I'll get revenge. Nailed it. You are my father? Now that backwards again? All right? Here we are, here, we are I'm making enemies in the room. Here. This is a golden Boy again by Sam Spence, the legend NFL films. The quarterback is the golden boy of this sport. And if we have carved out any if we've carved out any niches within the NFL landscape, the NFL media landscape through the years, it's great. That's awesome. And if you had to pin something that we've done on the show that has gotten the most traction, it's the Dalton scale. And the Dalton Scale is a creation of the great late Chris Westling, And um, you know what. I was going to describe what that is, but as I always did whenever we did this exercise, and we didn't do it last year because last year was a pretty heavy year. Um, but we've done it every other year on this show. I would always open this exercise by throwing it to Chris and saying, Chris, what is the Dalton Scale? I also always needed a reminder. You always struggled with that. I'm still not totally sure you've got it, but let's I think I have it now. This is what Chris said the last time we did this exercise with him in two thousand nineteen. Andy Dalton is the primary Indian of NFL quarterbacks. He represents quarterback purgatory. If you are ranked below Andy Dalton, your franchise needs a quarterback. If you're ranked above Andy Dalton, you're in ship shape. Everything's figured out. You're good to go. And uh later in that same episode, and it was so nice to go back and listen and hear Chris's voice. He was in good form. He was healthy at this time in his life, days before his wedding, days before his wedding, he had beaten cancer the first time and was on top of the world. So it was really as a nice listen if you ever want to go back and listen, UH and here the essence of of wes Uh. He also went on and explained why the scale works and always will work whether or not Andy Dalton's involved. There. The beauty of this scale is that it's truly reflective of quarterback play in the NFL. He could be ranked fourteen one year and still be the prime Ridian, and the next year be ranked and still be the prime Ridian. So here we are, so here we are. And that's true. And this is tell me if I'm understanding correctly, Greg Rosenthal, Greggy Andy Dalton is the prime Ridian. So there and B twenty three quarterbacks that are true franchise guys, and that just means that there are more upper level quarterbacks than other years in this and using this as an example, but Dalton will always remain that cutting point, the break point between the guys you can trust and believe in and the riff raff. And as a team builder, anyone below Andy Dalton you probably have to have a serious conversation about whether he should be the leader of your team. Well, I think we need to find who's the new Andy Dalton on some level, because Andy Dalton's now now a backup, and I think we'll get into who we are considering who are not some of the youngest quarterbacks. They don't really fit the Dalton scale as much. It's more for someone that you've seen for a few years, maybe not just one year. Not rookies certainly. Uh So it's also the memory of Dalton, of who Dalton was for the majority of that run, uh with the Bengals. Now of course, uh he's a backup with the Saints, and um, I have a feeling and dal is going to be part of this two season more than we expect in some way or another. It's just gonna happen that Andy Dalton's making a big time spot start, but he's no longer. Really this is the Dalton scale. And yet when I look at the list that we all put together, and then we had a consensus list that Grave Digger helped put together, Andy Dalton doesn't appear anywhere because the passages of time. And uh, I would say, before we get into our list, before we get into the consensus list, I think it is um important that we pay respect to the man for which the exercise was named by Chris Westling. Have success r Tyler Boyd out of the sun. He's got single coverage right out. For sure, we'll be double at the honor will be screening Ravens trying to end it here, so down got your step. So the have stunned this crowd. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Week seventeen, two thousand seventeen, Dalton knocks the Ravens out of the playoffs, gets the Bills off the Schneiden back into the postseason. West is pretty annoyed about that. If you recall he was he was not like I think he was annoyed that the Bills were not good and he was kind of on that, like, guys, don't respect them that they made the playoffs because they're not a good team. That wasn't there a heat there? I kind of recall that, Yeah, there's a Tyrod Taylor led Bills team that very different than the Bills team. That's this is they are no relation to the team, really know. And they fizzled out to the Jaguars and one of the weirder, like low octane wild card games we've ever witnessed. And I now know Dan, why you came into the news from our newsroom is like very hushed and um, it's fout. It's really strange. But Dan came in belting that song out. Uh, turnheads. It is that the last great Dalton moment. I mean he's had he's had a couple since. Uh. Is that some decent start since? But I don't know if there's been anything like I think that's the Dalton moment, which is funny because they were playing out the string as I recall Cincinnati, and that was just stunning knife through the heart of the Ravens in their building. Uh, just a kind of a great certainly the last great Cincinnati Dalton moment. All right, so let's get into it. Great to hear from Wes. Great to pay respect Andy Dalton. Hey, the last time we did it in I asked Graver to go check it out. We did this with Chris also, um to see the previous year. What kind of takes what takes stood out from the Dalton scale the last time we did it. Uh, And now if you could share some and Atrick, I know you also checked out the app, so if you had any share, But what do you got there? Grade there? Good? Yeah? So, like Greg just said, even back in you guys were discussing should Andy Dalton still be the scale or do we need to find a new player to be that that Primeridian quarterback, and there was some thoughts that Dave damit Check was actually on that episode. I thought maybe Cam Newton could be that guy. Maybe Ryan Tannehill. A couple of people said Ryan Tannehill, Jared Goff. But then Derek Carr came up, and there was a big sticking point around Derek Carr because you guys all had him rank slightly different. You all kind of agreed that Car might be the new Primardian, except for Mark, who was very low on Derek Carr and actually said he would take Gardner Minshew over Derek Carr. Back on, UM, that was the hottest bad take. But really, all of you guys are on Car. I feel like you have the job right now, by the way, or is he still in the street. Come on, he's a backup quarter He's one of the best backups in the league. Yeah, oh yeah. Can I mention one while from the year before one that when West was was was on fire, Um, multiple people wanted to have Sam Donald over Derek Carr, and Greg just said he wanted Andy Dalton over Derek Carr. So we have been all over the So we've been all over them because he had outside that sixteen season been a largely hot and cold passer. Yeah, well that's it's interesting because that would have meant I'm sure I was gassed up because Donald finished what you said. It was just like you were positive about I. When I made my list for this year, I took out anyone that's just one year deep into their career, just because I think you need to see more. And Matt mac Jones was the only guy. And we'll get into mac Jones because I think he's an interesting case here. Um, but I removed anybody that's a rookie, anyone that's played only one year, and just John Watson. Those are the guys I pulled from the list. Um, is there any other touch takes? Though? That stood out? Where is that? That was pretty much? I thought it was because Check had brought up cam and the idea that there's guys out of the league that can make their way into the Dalton Scale. But like year over year, that the discussion about the scale itself. It has to be the Dalton scale. It has to remain the Dalton scale. But as a concept. Because you go through lists, there's list online, they have you guys right list, everybody does list. It's hard to get the full context of a list. But what this vehicle provides an opportunity for is to discuss the way that the particular list is made, how important is for certain things. And so if people look at the list or are the consistent listen, they're like, oh, you got this guy there, it's impossible. We don't know how they're gonna play. We don't know if Herrett Carr is gonna become the greatest player in the NFL history. We don't know if somebody's gonna have a revolution. He's not becoming the greatest player in history. His his maturity and his improvement and where he is now, ow which looking at our rankings, he's at twelve, and we all had him almost identical between twelve and fourteen, so we all saw him in a very similar way. I think is instructive because he's probably been the same guy for the most part throughout and we were on the fence whether he's really the guy, much like a lot of Raiders fans out there, and I think now we've come to the conclusion that he is. But part of the reason is is that he's improved, like you are allowed to improve, and we're baking that into the rankings, who we think can improve, who we don't think will improve. And car is undoubtedly a different quarterback than he was three years ago when he refused to throw the ball deep, and now he's one of the more effective deep ball throwers in the league. He still has the things that we got concerned about back then, and that's why he's like in the twelve to fourteen range and he's not in the top ten. Uh, but he got better. You can get rewarded. It should just so everyone knows. Yes, Andy Dalton is essentially being replaced in this conversation. But like to use a baseball term, the Mendoza line, which was a Mario Mendoz of the nineteen seventy nine Mariners. That's when that was coined. Of a guy that struggles to get over two batting average. He's long gone, and yet that's always now how it's known. It's the Mendoza line. That's what the Dalton scale is. It will always be the Dalton scale. But who is the new Dalton? Derek Carr is certainly one of those names I think, um Mark I want to say for me, and I'm curious anybody else that disagrees, because This isn't a straight QB ranking exercise. We're trying to figure out that primary Indian. But there there are ten names for me that I feel um and I'll do him an order because they just there's the order of the quarterbacks I had that are out of the conversation because there's no doubt to me that they belong on the right side of line Rodgers, Brady, Josh Allen Mahomes, Herbert Burrow, Stafford, Prescott, Rust Wilson, and Lamar Jackson. That's where my list cuts off. Of debate, I have Kyler Murray still up for debate, Derek Carrup for debate, and then everyone else. Do you guys disagree with that? Minus the out of out of out of conversation players you mentioned are essentially identical to mine. If they're not in the same order, they're essentially identical. Right the consensus list you you're pretty close to. I mean, Stafford would be part of that for me, and Kyler would too, and and Derek Carrwood as well. And that's our top twelve on our consensus. I mean, are we really discussing whether Stafford or Kyler Murray are whether you're set as a franchise quarterback. Both of those two guys. For instance, I think we're the best quarterback in the league for about a month at a time. Matthew Stafford was the best quarterback in the league for the playoffs, which is you know, I think you should get a little extra weight for that. Uh. And so he he was eighth or ninth on my list overall, the tenth on the consensus list. And Kyler even though um, I guess you want to put him up here, to me, there's not much question. Through seven weeks last season he was number one on my QB Index. And like any any quarterback that can put that kind of stretch together, and he's had other stretches for his career, I'm not talking about them, whether they are a franchise quarterback or not. He he has done it, and he's been a little more up and down than you would want, and he's had his minor injuries. But to me, those twelve and I'm I'm throwing car in there. Uh. The consensus list was Rogers, Mahomes, Brady, Alan, Herbert Burrow, Dak Russell, Wilson, Lamar, Stafford, and Kyler. Murray was the top. I get why Dan has maybe some Kyler concerns though, because two years in a row it's been injury based to some degree. But they've fallen off a clip as a team. His play fell off at the end of last year. But there's other stuff. There's there's the idea that is like this guy a natural leader, is like football everything that he cares about maturity. But on top of that, if he if he reaches those m v P levels, that that's what you're gonna get. If he grows and he becomes more consistent, he's still young, right. I think I feel even though I have him outside my top ten, Patrick, I I feel totally fine in terms of us reaching a consensus here to have Kyler and car on the right side as well. Are you on board? I mean the way I tried to break mine down is to go, what unique talents do you have that the rest of the league doesn't offer? And my scale kind of favors that, and Kyler definitely has that. Um, you know, there's this asinine question from the franchise about you know, the future, like he's there, Like he clearly has the ability and and that's all you're looking for, right, Um, Andrew Luck decided he didn't want to play football anymore. I would have still had Andrew Luck on my team if I could have convinced him to play. And so if you can pay Kyler and he shows up, then yeah you do that. But yeah, between him and and Derek Carr, I've seen enough to say, like, why why am I going to go into quarterback purgatory and search for another quarterback when I have a quarterback that I can win with. So we agreed so much it's it's almost outrageous, like our top tens are essentially the same thing we do show together. It didn't take long to come up with the top ten two minutes well, and I think that's reflective of the the whole league study. And I think this exercise, the top twelve to thirteen and even the top fifteen sixteen seemed pretty defined. Like I had Russell Wilson the lowest at eleven, uh Mark had him at eight, Dan at nine, Claibon at six, but like, still, what are we talking about here? That's not that it's not like I'm burying him. I think his average level of play has been significantly below any of the rest of the top ten over the last two years. We kind of forget that he was to start last year even before the injury. Uh. To me, he he hasn't played at that like really high level and a lot longer than any of those other names like Dac and Burrow. And I'm sure he's gonna light it up. In the same thing with Kyler, you're saying, I can look at a stretch, what about the first six or seven weeks of completely on fire? So he I don't think he's really know what I mean that we're almost all agreeing. All these names, including car for the most part, are the same. I had Tannehill as my twelve, which was the highest they see that anyway, Right, So Tannehill, let's start here on grave Digger. I know this is a sense of topic for you, so just try to comport yourself with professionalism. Uh, Tannehill. You know we've even I think in this exercise made him the tennis scale. We've talked when he was on the Dolphins. At one point we thought he was the Tanna Very well, here we are years later. I have him at fourteen, Greggy at twelve, Mark at fifteen, and Pat Claibon at fifteen. So um, he is certainly in this conversation as that guy, right, and and you try not to put too much into one playoff game. And Greg, I know you've you've talked about it before that maybe that game wasn't quite as bad as some people remember in the playoffs. I did rewatch it the coaches film that he made a couple of bad throws, but he was it wasn't the worst. The first and last throw, we're pretty ghastly, but like, yeah, um, he's still he was another, he was steady. He's a guy that you can rust. He's taking them on deep playoff runs. And yet where are we now, Clay about An Tannehill as we spin into two? It's you you feel you felt a regression. I mean, and I haven't gone back and recently watched those games, especially the Bengals game, but it it feels like late Dolphins era Tannehill to a certain extent. And what I'm doing the exercise right, because what I did was I assigned thirty points for accuracy, uniqueness and and well, it's just playmaking. And so the guys that I feel I can't make plays like Ryan Tannehill's ability to make plays when athleticism is such a big part of the game. It has diminished recently over the years. To me, you do you agree with that? For the most part. I think one one area Tannehill doesn't add a lot of value is the ability when things break down to just make something happen off script, like roll out of the pocket and buy time. Like he has good athleticism and he can like pick up yards with his legs, but he doesn't like buy time. One of the better, one of the better, but in a in a like it has to be called for him type And the only way I pushed back there is few guys make more plays when just holding onto the ball. Generally holding onto the ball and standing there not a great idea. Ryan Tannehill continues to make more plays in those situations, which is a hard way to live waiting for the last second. To me, that's playmaking, like holding it for two point eight, staying in there and making tough those I don't think any quarterback in the NFL played better compared to his ross stats uh than Ryan Tannehill last year when PFF had him in their top five all year long, Like it made sense to me watching each one of his snaps, I would rank them in the bottom three or four in terms of how they protected him that the running game was obviously up and down. Maybe he doesn't like elevate you as much uh as you would like, But to me, he is like absolutely a solution. He's a starting quarterback and and I think he's closer to the Russell Wilson sort of car area. Like those three guys, for instance, to me are all in the same area. Tannehill carn I have him two spots below Matt Ryan, but I'd be willing to flip that if I were trying to build a team at this point. And I think he has blazing toughness. But the Titans have told us what they think. They went out and drafted Malik Willis, but they drafted four guys before that, and if anyone had drafted, you know, like they expected, they would not end it up. It's it's just it's it's no, it's a notable draft pick, all right. How about Matt Ryan mark because he's a guy that for years and years and years on this podcast comfortably in that top ten, ten to twelve spot, but as he's gotten older and um, his arm strength is diminished and maybe doesn't move as well, not that he ever moved really well. Um, he's become more of a target for the defense. Where do you think about age thirty seven, Matt Ryan in a new setting with a better offensive line. I think the setting is good the same way the setting was good for Carson Wentz a year ago. And I have more much more faith that Matt Ryan can go in there and succe right away. And everything they've said about him in O T S. I realized that TS have been like, he's fitting in really well. Everything looks good. He doesn't look thirty eight necessarily, but at thirteen, I think he's a candidate too to completely drop down this list if things don't go well, I don't see him sticking at thirteen, higher than the consensus. Dan has fifteen, Greg has sixteen, Mark has thirteen, and Claibon has Like in a mind military I want to say, right now, I feel like this is the guy. I feel like Ryan is the dude. But I'm still open to the conversation and hearing different opinions. But when I think about what this is, and I think, Greg, I know what it is. UM. I also think a factor in you know, down for two minutes to play. You need it. You need your quarterback to be able to make that drive. If the guy if in your mind like Kirk Cousins, I think that's why he's on the wrong side, because I don't count on him. Matt Ryan, I think more times than not he could get it done, especially with the better supporting cast. So I think he's right there, maybe a touch above, but he could be to me the prim rate where you have him on your list at fifteen below Ryan Tannehill, above Jalen Hurts, Jimmy G. Carson, Wentzon down and on. That makes sense what you're saying right here. I think he's snuggly, you know, just above it. But he does hit some of the the bells here that West would talk about. With the down scale. He rises and follows a little bit with his surroundings, but in in that way that he's going to a place where which I think will have good surroundings for him, especially the coach, and getting rid of the ball quickly. I like him in that two minute situation. I like how accurate is I really think he could be like a poor man's Peyton Manning later in his career, not not the last year of Peyton Manning. But the years before that in Denver, he obviously doesn't have that kind of talent around him. And I think you saw it last year, and it's actually last year that convinced me he's definitely on the right side, because because I think he did about there were some games where he just you knew that because they were playing a team with a good pass rush, it just wasn't gonna happen. He wasn't gonna happen. But if he had any help whatsoever, he would be above that line. And to me that that means you're you're just above the Dowtons. If it was purely a quarterback rankings list, I would have probably had Matt Ryan higher. But because it's the Doton Deale, right, it's the state of the quarterback position on your team, and I'm not gonna have Matt Ryan ahead of Derek Carr, right, or Matthew Stafford or bumping him up the Cousins thing. I just had to go into the minutia and like go tip for tat on our three categories to try to find out those two verses each other. Yeah, they were right next to each other, and I just gave Matt Ryan the edge. Uh. I think it wound up being playmaking because it's just so hard to see Kirk Cousins make I'll play when the play is not going right. And I've seen Matt Ryan do it more that that was really what it came down to. And you haven't both over Tanna House just and people just don't. I mean, he went, he went and did the work you use and it could be dumb. It would be dumb. I'm just saying for what it's worth. Like in terms of numbers the previous two years, and there was no bigger fan in this room during that stretch of him than West. It was the top five is quarterback. Now, I think you can use your logic and know he wasn't really a top five quarterback, but just pure numbers, that's what he was. Cousins did it. Cousins is this past year because the same last summer and last spring, we were having these same conversations and then you'd be like, well, look what he just did, and then you look at the numbers. And again with Kirk Cousins, year after year, the production is there. He completed two thirds of his passes over yards, three thirty three touchdown seven picks passer rating north of a hundred and three UM and yet we know the story by now about him that he's not as good as those numbers look. But at the same time, like if numbers were that easy to attain, and especially he was in a kind the stale offense. He has some big playmakers, but like everyone would do it. So to me, it's hard to get an accurate way to read Cousins because he does produce. He might be the guy, then he's I think he fit down four two minutes to play need the drive. I don't know though, I don't know if he's that guy. He did it, and he was he was great. He was the first half of the season through ten weeks were like, wow, this is a bad season for quarterbacks. Cousins is kind of having his best season. Is there an argument that Kirk Cousins this year is one of the top five or six quarterbacks. But I think it's so telling that about five or six weeks left in the season, they kind of did a Kirk let Kirk Cook type of plan of like we just gotta let him throw deeper, be more aggressive Zimmer was doing and it all kind of fell apart Davin Cook injured as well, which speaks to the Kirk the West is there again, He'll rise and fall And when the cast went down, so too did their production. West. Did you know ding Dalton for going into the postseason over and over and completely flopping. I think that matters. I just don't trust. There's a there was a lack of trust with Andy Dalton to rise up in big moments if the environment wasn't right, and I lacked that trust, and Kirk Cousins too. It's not I don't even know if it's rising up. Like to a certain extent, you are how that's how good you are, right, and you need to make a play right, you needed you need to see Joe Burrow be able to spin away from Aaron Donald. But Aaron Donald is one of the greatest players of all time, and so he made the play. And if you like, if you can't, if you don't have the ability to make a play when the play is not there to be made, then that's you're just Kirk Cousins. Although in fairness, like he if he was listening to this, he'd probably be like, um, like if at least in terms of last year, like what more do I have to do had that played at kJ Osborne to win the game, to play against the Cardinals early in the season, which they came back the final couple of drives against the Lions early in the season. Like he did make a lot of big time. It has highlights, but like I get it, but he's he's sitting fifteen and he's appropriate. He's he's totally an inappropriate That's where I have him too. And he's very the thrower of the football, which I do think gets a little underrated. So that's how Yeah, that's a big reason why he has these numbers. He's good at at what he does, but they're also limitations involved might be the guy he might, I do, but my feeling is that he is at this stage of his career still just north in that place, which is what explained his contracts he signed Andy Dalton. It's like we're trying to teams have been tasked to figure out how do we pay this guy because we think he's the guy, but maybe he's not. And it's worked out for him financially. Certainly. The Vikings with this new staff really went through this exercise when they took over. They had to decide whether he was north or south of the Dalton scale, because they could either tack an extra year onto his contract and kind of kick the can, or if they really thought he was south of the Dalton scale, they would have done They just wouldn't have done that. They would have eaten whatever his salary was this year and made it work, and they decided to give him the money. I do think there's hope that Kevin o'cone I'll bring him more rams S type offense will help him grow versus the relationship with Mike Zimmer, which just was such a headache and such a nightmare. He had no belief from his coaching staff. He grows, at least like statistically speaking, he's going to be an MVP candidate, Like he's that close statistically if he makes a jump from what he's done the last couple of years and is throwing forty touchdowns and eight interceptions like couldn't he jumped Derek Carr, couldn't he jumped Matt Ryan. I think he's on the right side. He certainly has it points. But for the purpose of the the scale right, just because guys are lower on the scale doesn't mean the Vikings can't win a Super Bowl, you can still build a team, but ranking the players I'm I'm not I'm not taking any of those guys that I have ahead of Kirk Cousins except maybe Matt. Right, It's true. If I'm starting a team and and Cousins is there, man, that's that's a tough one. I mean you kind of I wouldn't want to be in that spot. And I do want him to eventually end up with Kyle Shanahan like everyone's been talking about forever. But it's like after they're both passed their primes, it'll just be like, like have totally fallen apart. In Kirk, it would be like Carolina, Like the old Muppet guys that are up in the booth during the show, Um, what are their names? Anybody I know exactly who you're talking about? What was that? Kirk? Alright? So Tannehill, Ryan Cousins are all kind of names. That makes sense. Just a round zero in this conversation. Now here's a newer name Statler and waldor yeah, there it is. All right, Let's take a break and then get to a new name in this conversation. All right, let's talk Jalen Hurts entering year three Eagles. We know, Greggy, you're you're pumped up about his ability, um and what he can bring to this team even if he doesn't take a big leap in his third season. I have him at sixteen. Greg has him at you what but you have the rookie. You know what Graver pointed out, if you if you remove the second year quarterback from the equation, we all had Jalen Hurt sixteenth. Exactly What does that mean? Patrick? It means we're we watched the games together. Sometimes we're on the same page. It's hard to have him higher, right Um, when we when we look at all of the guys that we have, it's hard for him to be significantly higher, and then it's very difficult for him to be significantly worse. He's the median. And yet I don't know if he's like the Dalton scale guy because I think based on the numbers and where we all have him and and the way I looked at it, like he would be the median right now? Now? Is that the prime meridian? Like he is the middle of the NFL. The thing with Hurts is like you expect him either to go up, maybe he takes a step back. If if the running game, you know, isn't as dominant, Uh my thing looking at him and just trying to evaluate him, and we took the second year quarterbacks out of the mix. Was I guess I looked at it like if Trevor Lawrence or Zack Wilson or Justin Fields or Trey Lance, I'm putting back to the side. But if if any of those guys have Jalen Hurts is season season this year, how will people view it? And now, granted that the running is gonna be a little different, but like I think most people would view that as a big leap um and as a great sign that these quarterbacks are improving and that they're they're may be going to get to where you believe they would be when they were drafted. And so I I tend to give Jalen Hurts the benefit of doubt that if he's improved this much in two years, why can't he keep improving? I'm with you. I think he has a high floor. He does bring to claibonn points special skill sets that other quarterbacks do not in many cases, and yet it's a TBD for me. I just think that the I think the Eagles need to see it more information before they decide what to do next offseason, and I'd like to see more information. Sixteen feels right. He's only started nineteen games. He's kind of in a typical offense too. We you know, this is his third year, but he you know, only started four games as a rookie, so it's still you can almost take him out, but he you can almost use the middle. But I think we have a kind of right where we're all feeling pretty good about his chances of getting on the right side of it. But it feels premature to to give him give him that nod right now. Like if we had arrows right, we would all have an arrow for potential at six team with Jalen hurts to to go up the list, whereas two as arrow consensus seventeen the sideways double arrows question. The situation is so much better that that you think the production is going to be better, And he seems to be right around that line. Like I've I've thought like the median for his career will be a teddy type of career and to a two and on doesn't want to hear that, but like it could be worse than that too. He certainly hasn't come out of the gates as good as well as as Teddy did. Or you know some quarterbacks like a Jamis who end up being kind of that middle tier quarterback that doesn't end up sticking. Uh. Too also had about a six or seven game stretch last season where like his strengths really stood out. He gets rid of the ball quickly, he makes decisions quickly, he's on point, he's accurate, he has his limitations. But like you kind of know who toa is, I have to at twenty and he begins um a period of quicksand where every quarterback beyond him I have almost no faith and I would never sign up as my starter. And Too, I think someone a candidate to be benched early on in this season. So it's like he's in total tryout mode at this point. I just wanted to say, three of you have Jimmy Garoppolo ahead of ahead of two. Uh. But Claibon has Garoppolo so low on his list that it's weighing him, pulling him down down a hot guy on hot guy crime. It's not get well soon, Jimmy. I appreciate what Jimmy brings to the table, it's your Claibon had hurt sixteen to a seventeen, and that's where the consensus list ended up too. To it down at if it's tough, because I need to hear more from Patrick. If the rest of the league was busting down Shanahan's door trying to get Jimmy Garoppolo, maybe I would feel like I washtor that in as well. But he, I mean, he was pretty brutal down the stretch last year well, and he was hurt. He was so I mean, he wasn't great early either. I know that numbers were pretty good, but last year was the worst year of Jimmy Garoppolo's career, no doubt. Even before he got hurt, I thought as like a full time starter, which was surprising to you could almost take these I feel like he's too young too, and it's a bit of a cop out, but I think it's it's just true. But to me, if you're asking the question like is your quarterback situation solved with Toua or not, he's below the Dalton scale, I don't feel good enough. Like I think they're in a good situation, that they have Teddy as a backup, and that you have another year to find out, but I'm not feeling like that's solved. And and I think, just like we talked about with the top ten or eleven names that we all felt were comfortably above, I don't think we need to have much debate about the rest of these names unless somebody wants to chime in. These guys are all at this point in their career is comfortably below the line. Um, let's see that would be in a consensus list. Winston, Garoppolo, Baker, Teddy, Daniel Jones, Carson Wentz, Jared Goff, Marcus Mariotto, Gino, Jake Briskett, Mitch Robiskie, Drew Lock and Sam Donald. Anybody want to make a case for one of those guys being in the conversation as the primer Indian No a credible case, I would Jameis Wilson, Ye want to do it? Well? I think Jamis Winston has been incredibly productive. Uh and it's coming off the season where he made the fewest amount of mistakes and had the best numbers of his career. I don't think he was as good as the fact that at one point in the season he was leading the league in e p A per play and he was already done for the season, like he wasn't that, But man, he shows you a lot of the things that you want in an NFL quarterback. He plays really well from the pocket. He just shows anticipation. Could he mature and get ahead of that line a little bit like Derek carr uh did improving in his late twenties. I believe it. I believe it. I don't think he should be the line right now. I have them below, I have him at twenty. He's actually my first name under what my uh Dalton scale would be. I I'd have Hurt says the last one above it, and then Jamis is the first one below it. But to meet him and Baker are very close to that line and that they're gonna go up and down with the people around them. And that wouldn't surprise me if they put together a couple of years straight of of good play where we think this is way too low for the two of those guys. If you go back to that episode again where Baker was coming off his rookie year, this was sort of a stunning conversation we had. I had Baker Mayfield is the ninth best quarterback in the in the league. Greg had him is the eighth, Dan thirteenth, Dan was the closest. West had him is the fifth. That shows you how quickly things change. And now Baker is well, I think he is below off. The league's telling you that rookie season, right, so that that yeah, but he's he's a quarterback like a lot of these guys at the bottom half year aboard. If he was on the Jets, I'd have him wherever you had him to factor right now, you made a strong case, so you had him clumped up with like Jared Goff and others. But it's a reason not to rank these guys for this exercise, specifically in the first two years, because it's there's so much environment going on with how they perform, and when the environment changes, these this bottom third can crumble very quickly. Injuries were a huge factor in the way that I did mine out. That's that's probably why Jimmy g is solo, why big Or gets punished, and while jamis is you know, it's it's hard to see them anywhere other than on the other side of the line, just because like they have to, they have such a huge hill to climb just to eat this year, this year. But I think and it's it was interesting that they gave Jamis such a big contract the Saints, like when they didn't need to, when they obviously wanted a different quarterback. They wanted to Shaun Watson. But man, I know we did this to Jamis all the time. But the man is only twenty eight years old the production, and I think he is a perfect guy to have this conversation with. If you put him on those Titans teams, you're telling me he wouldn't have been productive. Like to me, he is gonna rise and fall, and he's probably right around that line. I think he's close. Something about it doesn't ring truth to me because down four, with the game of the line, he's stone to pick six. There's that also, and Matthew Stafford through a whole bunch. But when you have the ability, eventually you're gonna put in a position where if you make plays and you're a guy who takes risks, you make a no look class and you win the super Bowl. Like sometimes it's just right. Those guys are getting punished than they should, Baker, Jamis and Jimmy because we've seen so much of them that kind of now we know that at best year like a one a where you need to be replaced. I think Daniel Jones is a tough one again to put in there, just because of the situation. Yes, he's he's below the line, um, but but I think he'll have a chance this year. Man. He I thought he really showed strides early last year before everything crumbled. And I haven't told together for seventeen games, you know, at this point, um, before we kind of get to our choices for um the prime Ridian and then maybe we could get a consensus choice, we should hit mac Jones because he was the only guy that kind of stood out stood apart from the rookies last year. Like I initially when I was putting them in, I had him, I think either right above or right behind Jalen Hurts, so around sixteen or so. Um. And I think the reason why he's so different is A he had a much better season than the other rookies, but B he was also in a much better, much better surrounding. So you could definitely make the case that mac Jones is in this conversation already. UM. So that's another name to throw in there. It's just a little tough for a guy that only has sixteen seventeen starts, I have seventeen, and I think he's above the line from what we've seen. But again, things can change so much in season two. You know, he did trail off last year as well, So I just it's not a shot against because he was a rookie. It was a good rookie year. You just I just need to see more. That's really when I came down on it. You got him at fourteen, Greg. I mean I and if if the exercise were just who do I want for the next five years, I'd haven't even higher than that. Now. I could be wrong, like I was wrong about Baker after one year, but I think his skill set will travel. And there's this idea that like he was in a better situation than all the other rookies, and I think that's true, But I also don't think it was an exceptional situation. It was not their best year for their offensive line. It is not an amazing group of talented players around him. And I think he's got skill sets that tend to be pretty consistent and that he should be a top ten type of quarterback. From coaching, the the organization, UH he had his health. I'm just saying number one wide receiver was Kendrick Bourne. So but in the offensive line was just not as good as it was the previous couple of years. It wasn't bad either, but a ton of They spent a ton of money to improve the offense. Absolutely, very similar to the Jaguars, where I think they spent a lot and they went from like the thirty second uh group around cam Newton to like the eighteenth or nineteen. But it wasn't like that. It wasn't like an amazing group of players. That's more about but he there's a group of these players that are mysterious to us still that simply do not fit for the Dalton right. He doesn't really fit. And this doesn't because I would much rather have him than Kirk Cousins or Tannehill or Derek Carr for that matter. So that's why I did to see more before I say that. But that's I mean, if if you like more in general, if someone was making you choose right now, though you would you would still you would go with those guys for the next three or four years. Let's say Danny, Yeah, I would name him again, Kirk, you know Ryan, Ryan Tannehill. Yeah, Derek Carr, Ryan Tannehill, Kirk Cars if only because they have a more established resume um And I don't know, I would just I just want to see more from Mac Jones, That's all. But it was. It was a very prompting rookie year. I could look like a moron this time next year when we have this. The O t a conversation that he's hitting a lot of deep throws. He's worked on those deaths, he's more muscle bound. Now, I buy into it on Mac alright, so not a Pats fan that, but I'm all in on Mac did say said, I'm not as much of a pat It's it's a weird feeling because I feel like I'm so much higher than consensus on their quarterback. And I really don't think it, you know, but that's not subconscious. You still are a Patriots fan. It's I like a little bit more. I like different types. But he really reminds me of Philip Rivers, and I just think that I think that skill sets gonna travel, all right, but let's not let's not pretending on a Patriots fan. No I am. I am a Patriots. I thought that's what you just said, though not as much as as a team. But that's a tough look to that you It started to diminish as soon as Tom Brady left. I told you guys that it's not a goodlore that I remember. West got furious. I was like, absolutely, I'm going to be a less of a fan when he leaves. It's like you already experienced the highest of highs. What's the point? Why why do we look? Why do we dictate to other people how they like things? Things come and go, and well, you think it's a good Do you think it's a good look? Though? I think the whole concept of a bad look is dumb. Well, alright, drops a nuclear bomb on the whole conversafe passions, you know, they come and go over time. But I'm sort of like, it's like, after I had already gotten drunk as much as I could, staying out ntil four or five in the morning, like three to five times a week in New Orleans, I truly had a thought that like, it's never gonna top that. I know, I'm I'm gonna say it's never gonna top that. So I'm kind of done, just like being the going out drinking. We have to deal with the post party. Boy, Greg, I mean I was still annoying back then. It was like the personality was within me. I just was at So you're you're hanging out with this post podcast if you hadn't had your part. It was my kids last day of school. They were at the beach. They needed to be picked up. What about us? Yeah? Mark, the kids matter more? Did you did you find it slightly off putting that Greg finished the pot and took off slightly off putting? First of all, I stayed for an hour making other parents watch my kids at the beach while the entire school. I mean, what gets more so called than that they're celebrating the last day of school than they all go to the beach and I'm not even there. Greg, we get it, you're plug in with your children. But it was such a great bonding experience. The rest of us who stayed, I don't know. And you were already getting ready to go and I left. So we had a marvelous time. Don't hit out. We went to a second location. Nice time. Were they all there? Yeah? I think the whole crew was one group supporting And what did? I pulled you aside and I said, don't stress at all about getting the show up. We're here to have a good time and celebrate everything. Erica made us all stay until Jet showed up, so we did. That's true. Then we left. I was trying to get out of there before then. Eric was like, I'll kill you if you leave before Jet gets That's when it was got a little tricky at that. Yeah, a little tricky because it was getting later. You guys should try parenting if you ever want to leave a situation. That's true. All right, here we go one more break and then we're gonna figure this out. Probably not all right, so I'll stick with where I came down earlier on the show. I think Matt Ryan's the pick for me. I like my Matt Ryan a lot. I like his chances in Indie. But I also think he's right there now where he and I think that's a there's a reason why. That's where the Colts ended up digging out of their issue here um with Carson Wentz and they remember we we talked about it um earlier in the off season about now what are the Colts do? And they had to figure out something. And I think this is like the best case scenario that they get Matt Ryan. But still it's this version of Matt Ryan's very different than the guy that went to the Super Bowl, UM five years ago. So I think he's the guy, Greg, who is your nomination? Well, I'm so confused now after doing this exercise, because Hurts felt like the guy. But maybe he just doesn't make sense because he's too young, like he's an evolving player. If we all had him sixteen, he felt like the guy. Um. But I actually, I truly believe that Jamis makes more sense as the median that if you're Jamis or below, you need enfranchise quarterback. Uh. And if you have someone better than Jamis in my mind, that would include Hurts, that would include Ryan Cousins, Mac Derek Carr like then you're then you're good. So I actually think Jamis the median. Is is the middle player himself. Yes, is not the guy that should be replaced. He's the guy that is in purgatory? Is he in the I think you you ranked Matt Ryan, Okay, so that's pretty similar to me. But to me, he you don't need another starter if you have Matt Ryan in my mind, so so it has to be someone below it. I don't know it hurts Jimmy G. I'm gonna go Jamis Hurts is kind of a weird one of those ext It doesn't work so for me because I have to go off my list. Matt Ryan is a little too high for hint for me to agree there I have I'm going Kirk Cousins at fifteen. I think he's in that middle spot where he is a starter. Uh, he has issues. We feel frustrated by him, which were the feelings that I had about Andy Dalton. But then from there it goes to the nether world of Mac Jones and Jalen Hurts. We need to see more. And from there it drops off to Jimmy G and the Niners have essentially made massive efforts to replace him. And then after that it's backups and and and fill in the blank, nondescript. Doesn't it feel like it's Kirk cousins destiny to become the Daltons also fits as a sort of just the person who would hate this because he always was like as we bagged on Kirk Cousins, especially in the early window before he got regrudgingly got everyone's respect. I felt like West was mostly on an island, being like this guy is a good quarter. That's why we were kissing Cousins. Greg on that side of the table. He and I both had our Kirk Cousins moment. There was a little bit of a Shanahan fascination there. But you're not. You can't stay as good forever. I think he's declining into this doltins. It will happen eventually. Yes, yeah, you say he's there. I think he's a year away, alight. And that's why I really had to go into it to try to figure out to slice this bread between Ryan Tannehill and Kirk Cousins, and just the recent statistical success of kirk Cousins and like the plays that he has made, like you mentioned, Greg, I had to put kirk Cousins on the other side. I think Ryan Tannehill is the four different options. So and maybe just for fun, maybe we'll have a vote. Put it on the on the subreddit or on Instagram or both um, because I'm nominating Matt Ryan, Greg, jameis Winston, Mark kirk Cousins, and Claibon Ryan Tannehill. So we don't have any way to break the tie within this room, which is great. When we did this, I really looked at it and thought like, I don't know. This year, I don't know if there is perfect I will say that. I'll say this like Winston to me, I'm I'm just not on board with him being that high in this conversation, Uh cousins to me, I think what we just said maybe a year or two away from dipping down and being that guy Claiban with Tannehill, that would be the one other than Matt Ryan that I would feel good about and be like, okay if that, if we're going for a consensus, Tannehill makes sense, even though on my list he's just above the line. But I understand both sides of how annoyed would you be a grave digger if that's how like the voting came down with a listenership, not that annoyed. I don't think it makes sense. He's flirted with it before too. He came very close to me with Miami, right yeah, I mean he's been a much better player, and yet like that, it doesn't make sense this year. But I really think of the of the guys on our consensus list around the middle, we had Jalen Hurt sixteen and to A seventeen to a feels like a future Dalton scale type of guy that, like, you can never quite decide, And I think it's too early in his career to totally put that on him. But when you think of players that he's like, I think of Alex Smith, who was very much a Tanna Dalton scale guy. I think of Teddy, who's a little below. But I appreciate it that you guys actually had Teddy a little higher on your list than me. And isn't that I did that just for you? Yeah? Thank you? Um and and so it's like, I think that could be to his future. But I think we're all uncomfortable. We're all uncomfortable about second year players on this list. It just doesn't quite fit. Yeah, I think all right. I would say Tannehill makes sense because the Titans are like trying to figure out if they need to replace him, right exactly exactly. I mean that's a huge indicator with some of these some of these guys, Jimmy g the same boat. If I'm going down my list right and I'm looking at the scenario, I would rather figure it out with two. Uh, I'd rather figure it out with Jalen Hurts because you can you can get a big win there, right in terms of the guys having the potential, I don't see anybody underneath that that it's that fits better than Ryan Tannehill to me like that, it just keeps being the line no matter how many times. I don't know how we got back into two thousand twelve, two thirty and I'm somehow like Ryan Tannehill is big fan here, but I am just saying, like no one else in this range. And I guess Kirk maybe would be uh would have been top five PFF you know grades two straight years and then last year, I know he was in the top ten e p A per place, like among the best quarterbacks in the league over the last three years. It's the last three years in aggregate his numbers and his grades, and he's only thirty three years old. He deserves a little more respect. But I do understand it. The eye test is all right, well, does this because it will be fun to see what the listeners think. But does this episode fail in its conceit if we don't have a consensus at the end of the show, or is it okay for it to be open ended? Mark? I think it's okay for it to be open ended because we each came up with the answer. I'm not shifting off of my answer at this point. It's like the Sopranos, Uh, you know, finale. I always like to. I like to be an open liked to in the moment. It's fifteen years ago, uh this day or two days ago. I believe it was the anniversary, and I liked it in the moment. Alright, Clay Boon, I, I just want to make it known that I would be okay to move to your vote. But at the same time, now everyone's dug in, so it's not so because we did definitively say what our picks are. It's also like a sign that like the Dalton scale is perfect in its concept and in its creation, and that Andy Dalton was the perfect person for it, and we've never come up with another person. Alex Smith felt good for like a year or two, but then he like started throwing deep like Andy Dalton was the perfect answer. It's kind of like, uh, I don't know, it's like the perfect uh law for its time, but time's change. You know where I'm with Dan. If if I were forced, uh, you know, under duress to go in another direction, Tannehill much more for me than Jameis Winston. Apologies, Greg, I just I would go Ryan. Of all the other choices, I would go Ryan. Also, this is like, are we Ryan's career could be over in five days? Like are we looking for someone that's going to be out of the league in a year to years? Alright, well, we've certainly given you, the listener a lot to think about. Thank you to Patrick Claiban for joining us. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll be back on Thursday with another remote show. We're gonna be in Santa Monica for the Talent Summit, NFL Media Talent Summit. We're gonna be pool side and we're gonna try to wrangle up some guests from the NFL media um personality and analyst world, so that will be fun. And um, oh my goodness, a guy and a members only jacket just walked in. And we do have a consensus the Andy Dalton scale. The winner this year is the man that is the prime Ridian is