Frances Ha with Christina Catherine Martinez

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Speaker 1: On the beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have wenen inum, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Oh I wish I pretend I'm opening a can of Mike's Hard. Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast retro version. My name is Jane. I haven't drank Mike's during a Bechtel Cast episode in literally a year and a half. It's been a while, but I had two cold bruise this morning, and so I'm just I'm like a young Judy Garland. I'm just upping and downing all damn day and I'm going to die before in fifty I think that that all tracks that works for me. How are you, Caitlin? I mean, I don't want you to die ever. Thank you stay alive. I think that the world I forget what that article said. I think the world's gonna die when I'm like forty seven. The world will die before we do. Yes, so that's great anyway. Hi, I'm Caitlin Dron. This is the Bechtel Cast. This is our podcast about women in movie, and we use the Bechdel test to initiate a larger conversation. I think most of the things we just said past you did say Mike's hard lemonades Mike. We don't know how Mike that's true. I don't. I don't. I honestly don't even know if Mike is a person or an idea. Wow makes you think that's right? And also, how does the world how does the planet Earth identify? Genderless? Icon? That's what I say anyway, So the Pectel test requires that a movie, for example, has two named female identifying characters who must speak to each other about something other than a man. And our version is just a two line exchange. That's all the needs to happen. And you know some movies do it and some movies don't. Let's let's try it. Okay, Okay, here we got here's a Bextel test test. Hey, Caitlin, Hey Jamie, you know what I love when it happens in a movie. Tell me when New York is not just a place but a character. I how does New York identify, Oh my god, as a fucking asshole? I don't know. There. I just love when New York That's my favorite piece of film criticism when they're like, the location is actually also a character, um, which you know, I love that. I think it's just a gorgeous, very thoughtful original definitely, and it's it's what's crazy about this is that New York City because it's a character is my best friend? Wow? I love that. Well that passed, We did it. It doesn't have to be a good exchange. That's always the lesson. Um. I'm so psyched for today's episode. It's been uh request we've gotten quite a few times. Yes, we have hatten this request for quite a few times. And I'm so thrilled to have our guests on today. Good one of my Yes, dude, what a delight she is. She's an art critic, she's a comedian. She's got a book coming out called Aesthetical Relations It's Christina Katherine Martinez. Can I talk now? You can't remove. We have ganged you. I'm so excited. Welcome, thank you, thanks for being here. Uh. And today we were talking about the I guess it's kind of hard to tell when this movie came out. People say between okay, it was released, you know what is closed? We're talking about Frances Hay today. The way I think most people met Gertie Gerwig, you know, I ever heard of her is confusing. It does have a lot of early vibes to it, having come out in twelve and I think this movie to me, I like, this movie came out while I was in college, so and this is people in college bait uh because it's it comes out. But honey, it's in black and white. So you're like, so I go into this movie and I'm ready to think real hard. Sure, Yeah, it's it's a black and white movie. Um directed by Noah bomb Boch and written by him and Gretit Gerwig, who I think by the time this movie comes out are an item, which they are to this day. Good for them. Yeah, he left who did he leave for? Grenford? Jason Lee? Really? Did she have his baby? No, that was Tom Brady left his pregnant. Oh god, Bridget moynihan. I think, yeah, my god, I mean this Trump supporter. So we don't know, we simply can't with Tom Brady difficult difficult. Yeah, I wish it made me mad, the like, of course he left his wife for a younger lady. But I'm like, they work really well together. Yeah, and it's just I mean, two very cool women that he's been in at least a public relationship that no, I okay that no, now we're not let's just promise to never talk about Tommerty. No, but I don't know, no a bomb back, you know, I think what you want about him? He s datedd some cool ladies. But yeah, this is I feel like, um, does this movie qualify as mumblecore? I feel like it's adjacent to it, but not. There's more plot to it than mumblecore, although there's not all that much plot. I would call this, oh, you know what we haven't said in a while. This is really a tone poem that was I thought goes all the way back to our Josh Fadum episode. Yes, it really is a tone poet and there's a lot of horny tub and it's an actor's film. It's mumble adjacent. I haven't because Greta Gerwigs character is pretty Jeremy. But I have seen a clip of her acting in an actual mumblicore movie and she's literally in a bathtub with goggles, you know, spouting her friend like why you know, can we connect? It's mumblecore, is starting five sentences and not finishing any of them. Sure, right, and this mumblecore, I mean I had quite a bit of contempt for that genre, and I feel like everyone has dated a douche bag who is two into mumblecore. And like my college boyfriend was, like, you haven't seen the puffy chair, Like the puffy chair, the puffy chair. I guess I don't know what really classifies literally just about like it's like Italian neo realism but bad. It's like it's usually about people in Brooklyn, usually a white hetero couple in Brooklyn, or brothers or like brothers working through their issues together. It's always really long, it's semi scripted. It's what else is there? I think it's it's yeah, plot lists, semi scripted, and I think, in an effort to come off as naturalized, I think the dialogue tends to be overly awkward, you know, like, give people some credit. People are articulate in real life at some points. Right, Um, Okay, I'm looking at a list. I don't recognize a lot of these moves. Oh, Jeff who lives at home? I've saying that I've seen drinking buddies. These are on this list, those are yeah, and I feel like Francis Ha and the two movies you just mentioned are on the more scripted side of that genre because like early, like Gregia Garwood got her start in mumblecore movies, and most of her early stuff and most early mumblecore in general is I feel completely unwatchable and annoying. Oh, Before Sunset is on this list, I don't think that's it doesn't make this Wikipedia page that before the Before Sunset to me is like the opposite. It's so stylized because their their dialogue is so pithy. And I love Sunrise. I hate it, but I still wouldn't call it mumblecore. But I think Francis Hall, I think is maybe one of the more polished, if you could even call it, of the genre. I wasn't really sure. I don't think so. I think it's her graduation from Bolkore. She's you know, collaborating with it. I was going to say, real filmmaker, that's a horrible put it, you know, like because he's a man. I don't know if you were an m R. Yeah, I don't. I'm an enemy to my own sex and I will just maybe stay off the bat. I like this movie. I do. So what's what's your history your relationship with this movie? I think I saw it in the theater and I thought it was amazing, and I was I've been subject to a lot of movies with like a manic Pixie dream character kind of thing, so I was ready to like totally hate it, but because I think it was a little more subtle than I was expecting, I freaking loved it. And then I watched it again this week years later, maybe liked it slightly less. There was a few cringing moments of like, here's here's a sincerity egg pie in your face. But but I really it's it's charming, it's you know, it's the coming of age story. But also I think the main thing, which is why it's fun to talk about on this podcast, is the romances between, like is a female friendships, and so I think it's a lot even the more stylized moments, like if they had these montages of like playing and eating, and if they had that with a straight white couple, it would be so bar bar horrific. Yeah, but there is something kind of sweet that it's just two friends and you don't really see that kind of intimacy too much in films. Well, that's because movies don't like to have women in them no more, only in certain ways. I yeah, I did. Like. My history with this movie is I saw it. It It came out when I was in college and I went to uh film school and everyone was pause it really, did you go to film school twice? Though, Jamie, No, I did. I wasn't quite that financially reckless. I I was, it was, and I did go to film school twice. It's not movie school, it's still I actually go a step further and I call it cinema school. I would like cinema. I go a step further. I just stayed in French. I went to an call the cinema. It's like and it sounds like there's less debt involved when you say it that way. Point of that being that everyone I knew at this time I saw this movie loved this movie, and I was like, I don't know. I was like kind of an edge lord about it. And I remember watching it and being like, it's dumb. She's dumb, Like I didn't, I don't know. I I didn't like it when I first saw it. I think because I had it in my head. I was like, oh, these are umblecore people. I don't like it very much. Um, even though I liked the squid in the whale, but whatever. But yeah, and I just didn't take it very seriously and I didn't under and I genuinely didn't understand most of the character's motivations. And then I rewatched it this week with a friend of the cast, Melissa Losatta Olivia, and we both we both hadn't seen it since college, were the same age, and this time we're pretty much the same age as the protagonist of the movie. And it made a lot more sense to me this time. The whole vibe of like, I feel insecure and like lesser than to my friends. I'm just gonna put a reckless vacation on credit card because I'm feeling uncomfortable with myself makes a lot more sense to me than it did when I was nine. Um, and I got more out of it this time. I thought, I, I I, you know, it has it has its things, and they are are like definitely cringing moments, but I feel like I get it now, all right. I saw it probably sometime around m I think I was in Boston still when I watched half of it. It popped up on that'slex at some point, and I think it's probably never left. It's been on Netflix for nine ers. Yeah, so it's a guy maybe saw it in like watched the first half of it. And it's not that I wasn't enjoying myself, but I wasn't like super fully engaged and then got sidetracked and then never felt compelled to finish it. So I had only seen half of this movie before prepping for the episode. And uh, yeah, I guess I wasn't very compelled by it. Because I've said it before, I'll say it again. I love a good romp. I would not call this movie. He's not quite a romp. It's not like a shaggy dog story, but just sort of like a shaggy teacup poodle. Also, I paid it's on Netflix because I paid to watch this on Amazon Prime. Christine, it's been on Netflix for six years. Do you guys have an expense account? Is there? Like? Um no, Actually that's unacceptable. I think that that people would be like, Wow, this is the first time anyone's rented this movie in five years. Can I just like kicked up some server in Iowa that like this hasn't made a move in years. Can I give you a tip and all of our listeners a tip. There is an app called just Watch. This is not an ad. By the way, this is not an ad. We're not sponsored by just Watch. But if you want to buy smart food popcorn, if you download this app called just Watch and type in the name of any movie or TV show or anything like that, it will tell you what platforms it is streaming for free on. It'll tell you where you can rent it, and it tells you where you can buy it. That's amazing. I feel like i'm dB should be doing that right. There's a few movies you can watch for free on IMDb. You can watch Paddington One on i amdb for free. Yeah. I think they're going to become the new Amazon. They're going to start something's I mean, capitalism is all around us and there. So if you can get anything for free, do it? Do Yeah? Touch, I d to install take my fingerprint, Lord Bezos. Yes, everyone pause and he yes, please take my identity and identify me, Lord Bezos. So yeah, should I just should we go into the recap? Yeah? Go from there, which is difficult because there's kind of no plot. I was trying to figure this out. You're not wrong. Also, the one thing I was surprised at that I totally forgot about from my first watch of this movie is Adam Driver Fedora. It is weird now to watch early Adam Driver knowing he is now an animatronic at Disney World and be like a mirror six or seven years ago he was Fedora guy in a Noah bomb Box movie, A man we were used to coming on. Lena Donham is now an animatronic. Truly a marvel you Also, did you notice that the other roommate is the husband, the crappy husb and from Marvelous Mrs Mazel No I have Yeah, okay, well I just added myself as a watcher of that show. Thank you, Lord Bezos. Christina is sponsored by Jeff Beezza. She's actually a mot that he made incredible. Alexa is actually based on Christina. Yeah, it's it's just my brain. It's just there's a little Alexa in there. Talk about the Ultimate Mannic Pixy, dream Girl, Alexa girl. Yeah, there is a movie about Alexa. Validate me artistically. Yeah, what happens in the movie, because not really anything I'll do my best. So Francis is a young woman living in New York City ever heard of it, and her roommate and best friend is Sophie. Shout out to our super producer Sophie who shares the same name, who's played by Mickey Sumner, who was not familiar with, and Francis is of course Greta Gerwig Gerberg, who co wrote the movie. Francis's boyfriend Dan asks her to move in with him, but she would rather continue living with Sophie and just do everything with Sophie really, so this this causes her and Dan to break up in a very sne that I watched twice because I was like, are they really? Are they? Very where? He was such a He was just like, well, then maybe we shouldn't be together anymore. I was like, jeez. He's also talking about wanting to get cats, like two cats for the both of the expensive together, to be fair, But that's a very real point in a relationship that maybe, like as a young nineteen year old, you could not relate to, but like, you know, especially when you're you're late twenties. I think this character is twenty seven, which just maybe still too early for this talk. It's kind of like, yeah, well, if we're not going to move in together, then what's the point of keeping going? Yeah? Who splits custody with a dog? I've had that breakup, you know that, Like, well, we're not going to get married, so why are we here? Why are we How much longer will this happen? If we're not going to share cats together? Then what's the fucking point? Yeah? The cats are are a metaphor. Cats do have eight nipples. This is cat facts with Caitlin. She didn't seem too broken up about the breakup though, No, it seems like it was. That was like one of the interesting scenes that I that I enjoyed of Like it was like a weird like whose idea wasn't to break up? They sort of just mutually we're like, well, I like that. I like she's kind of like he says this isn't working, meaning the discussion of them talking about moving in together, and she interprets that is like our relationship isn't working. And then he's like, oh, okay, I guess we're going to break up then if that's how you feel about it, And then she thinks about it for a second she's like, yeah, that's fine, and then later Sophie is like, when you know, like Greta Growingg's character, Frances I'm gonna keep calling her Greta growing GRETI Growig is like, well, like I only broke up with Dan because I thought we were going to keep living together, and Sophie kind of immediately is like, that's not the only reason that Greta is like, no, I guess not right. So she wanted to bring out this the good. I want to get into this later, but Francis is codependent behaviors will just oh they are. And that's the first scene where we see her apologize a hundred times, which is a type of visibility. I feel like this is one of the good Like mumble Corey elements is she apologizes like seven times for no reason in that scene, But you don't get to see female characters do a lot even then. That's something that like we're hardware to do do Yeah for passing the Bechdel test. She does say I feel bad all the time in the movie, Yeah, yeah, which is like, I mean there's different, Like I feel like there's a big pressure on female characters to set an example and it's kind of like nice and refreshing to see a character who's just kind of reflecting a certain type of women at a moment in time. And I liked, I mean, the constant apologizing can relate. Yes, So she and Dan have broken up, and then one day Francis and Sophie are on the train together and Sophie is like, I want to move in with my friend Lisa and it's great apartment that we found in Tribeca. Hey, Francis, are you okay with that? And Francis is clearly not okay with that, but she's like, yeah, I'm okay with that. And then so this is the beginning of their friendship crumbling. So now that for now. So now that Francis is single, she goes on a date with this guy Lev that's Adam Driver's character. This doesn't go anywhere romantically, but she does move in with him and his friend Benji, just like sleeping on their couch. Who is and Benji is Beni from Marvel's Missus Me. I'm sure a lot of our listeners will know. We just haven't seen it. Yeah, cute is a button? Yeah, I mean I don't care. She's moved in with them. She has not seen that much of Sophie recently. And then Sophie finally does come over to Francis's new place, but she's like, all judge, she has stay very long. She's got this boyfriend Patch that she like hangs out with a lot now and Francis is having some money struggles. She's in this dance company because she does ballet or she's an understudy I guess in the dance company, and she's thinking that they'll be able to use her in this Christmas show and that will make her that will earn her more money. But they're not able to use her after all. So she's proud of herself for asking. So she doesn't have this money that she thought was coming in. And then she and Sophie getting this big fight and Sophie seems to be withdrawing from their friendship more and more. Meanwhile, the roommate Benji keeps calling Frances totally undateable, which is like one of the eye rolly elements of that yeah stuck out is like a little yeah, yeah, we can we can have that talk about that was like one of the funds like this didn't age well, this isn't as cute as I thought it was. And then Francis can't afford to stay with Levi and Benji anymore, so she goes to stay with her friend Rachel from the dance company, who clearly does not seem to really like is a Kazan Because sorry, I'm not, That's just what we're saying in the art work on Christina is our representative from the art work, and so if we if we're sucking it up, let us or just put the emphascists on a different syllable or pedestrian heathens. I'm sorry you meant to. So she is hanging out with Rachel and Rachel's friends and she finds out from these people that Sophie and her boyfriend Patch are moving to Japan in a few weeks, and Sophie hasn't told this directly to Francis, so she's like, oh, no, some of these problems are so bronn that you're just like, sure, my boyfriend and I moving to Japan in a few weeks. I'm sorry, Francis. They're just like sure. I do take this movie as like Brooklyn Gospel. Maybe that's totally misguided, but I'm like, oh, I feel like that happens all the time, that you would go on a date with someone. If it doesn't work out, you can just become roommates. Yeah, I think so. So then Francis decides to spontaneously go to Paris, and it's basically a wasted trip because she like sleeps the whole time accidentally and doesn't do anything. That's the part Melissa and I started crying. This is actually we could go into there. I think this is the best part of the movie. This is when it's actually kind of subverting its own romanticism. Sure locked up this character is yeah, let's let's talk about that. Let's put a pin in that um And then so really quick, I meant rachel I confuse my Kazan's and my gummers. Grace Gummer plays rachel A k A. What is a gummer a Meryl Streep's daughter is what it is? Sorry, Meryl Streep or Maryle Meryll st welcome and take a left onto Meryl Street. Well, last season two might be over by the time streets. Okay, So she's in Paris, and then very French Sophie calls her to finally tell her that she's moving to Japan. Their conversation, it's very tense. And then she gets back to the US. She has a meeting with a dance company owner and she thinks she's going to be made a part of the touring company, but instead she has offered an office job, which she turns down immediately. Also a devastating I don't know. That seems also like devastating, but I also like that because she was like, no, I don't want that job. I know what I want, and I'm gonna immediately stand up. She turns it down. Yeah, but that was a tough scene to watch her process what was happening, because she she had already started telling people She's like, I'm going to be worring soon, and she's like, god, as someone who has jumped the gun before. And then it was even sadder because her saying touring company was playing down her own expectations, like, oh, I'm definitely going to join the company, but probably just a touring right, And then she doesn't even get that. Yeah. I think gret Growing is really good in this movie the way she's like yeah. So then we cut to Frances having moved to Poughkeepsie to be an r A at the college where she went to school. Um, and she worked. I think, is it? That's what I saw and that's what the Wikipedia said. All colleges east of the Mississippi kind of blend together for me. Yeah, it's very it's it's very like Neil the Family. You're like, oh, this is a female friendly space. It's she it's she returns to vassor her Almo my tear? Is that how you say it? Mam? Well we have fun. Um. So she's at this school in Pokeepsie a k mass her. She is working various events around campus to make money, and at one of them, Sophie and Patch are in attendance, and like Francis is lurking around until she overhears Sophie say that she and Patch are engaged, and she's like, what, you're gay, right, because she's she's a She's lurking around because she's a caterer and she doesn't want to be exposed as working as a caterer. But then like record scratch, Yeah, well well what what that really is? How them find out? She actually does a triple take with Neon sunglasses and just the sunglasses are in color. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of like she loves listening. That way go on, So she and Sophie get to talking. At this event, Sophie is drunk. She and Patch are not getting along. And then later that night, Sophie shows up to Francis's dorm room and they kind of rekindle their friendship a little bit. And then Sophie said, is that she wants to leave Tokyo. She wants to leave Patch. She wants to move back to New York. Yes, I think I'm going to leave you are New York. I think I'm going to leave Patch because I just figured out New York is a character in the movie, and I want to leave Patch, but I don't want to leave my friend character New York. I couldn't help, but wonder was New York my boyfriend? It sounds like a Carrie Bradshaw us over. That's exactly what I was trying to um. And then sometime later, Frances has moved back to New York City. She is choreographing dances she puts on a show. All of her friends are there, including Sophie and Patched, who have gotten married. Her old roommates Leve and Benji are there. Her the dance company instructor owner person is there, and then that's when I stopped writing down my version of the recap. And then I don't know if anything happens after that, so if there's any blanks to fill in it, the only thing that I alsought that was a little I thought it was a really lovely ending in terms of, you know, it was because it's a movie about like an artist finding themselves but also within the limits of her own artistic capacity, which is like her coming to grips with that she's not she's not going to be the great dancer that she wants to be, but she's actually has a voice as a choreographer, and it's this adjacent thing which feels like a compromise. That is why she resists it. But then you know there's something in the end is the only time you actually see, you know, a piece of her work, so it kind of celebrates that, and I think that and then the I guess where she the storyline about her and her friendship with Sophie ends is that they like I think they're on the subway again and they're talking about like, oh what if we got apartments like really close to each other, but they live alone yeah, it seems like I thought the ending was lovely. Yeah, there is what I remember. There's a little bit of a shoehorning of a romantic element, and that her and Benji connect again and he's like, I'm saying all and she's like, ah, me too, and I guess we're on your ball. And then it's implied that they're going to get together. But the ending ending is a moment that Francis refers to during the dinner party, you know, half an hour earlier, about you know, what she wants out of a relationship, and she's like talks about this was a little cringe e and hard to watch, but it's true, and it made me very uncomfortable to watch it. She's like, you know, talking about like, you know, when that feeling like when you're at a party and like you and your person are both being charming and amazing and then you just catch each other's eye, you share a moment and it's just you and your person having your own little world blah blah blah. Yeah, and it's cute callback because she has that moment with Sophie and that's the end of the movie. Okay, got it? Yeah, it's yeah, I liked. I mean in like, I feel like this movie, I don't know, I'm like, even seven years later, I wonder if like the Benji of it all would have gotten the attention that it does at the end. But it's it stays pretty well within the bounds of like the friendship is where the emphasis is, which feels like it belongs. And we can talk more about that right after this break break. Okay, so a few things right at the jump. I mean, this also takes place in an all white New York City. Like many movies like New York is it is not the true reflection of he was like hold on a second um, which is I think like one of them more glaring like things about it this movie, Like there are class elements addressed in it that I thought were kind of cool and where it's I feel like this movie brings up something that not a lot of movies or really people do, which is like kind of like what the difference between being broke and being poor is? And this movie calls that out pretty directly, where like Francis ha is broke but not poor per se, where like she's a struggling artist, but we see, you know, in Sacramento ak gretitor Wig cannon Um. She has a loving family who it we think that you know and they're like, oh, we're sorry, we can't help you out more. But like, worst case she's got a support system. Worst case she can move home. And I think that that's like a cool thing to see reflected also the fact that she's she's the most broke of her friend group, but the fact that I mean it even speaks to her. I guess like talent or drives and like, wait a minute, you're a full time dancer, you know, with no day job in New York City and you have a roof over your head's a miracle. And Benji has maybe only his true function is to call her out on that. She talks about being poor and he's like, you are not poor. He's like, there are four people in New York and you are not one of them. Exactly. Yeah, And like that scene of it was like kind of a relief to see that addressed, because it's like, I don't know, I've been the brokest of But there's there's a difference. There's definitely a difference of having no alternative. Like what we're seeing in her with her is like she's definitely struggling, but it's more of an X like it's worst case she could pony up and take the office job, you know, like exactly. I also see, yeah, the I'm ambivalent about the people who sort of refuse to get day jobs because like I'm an artist and this is I mean, there's something that I want to say is admirable about that, But it's also a privilege. Just so, yeah, you can only do you simply can't do anything else. It's people who and we know plenty of them here in you know, l A. But I mean the people who are able to do that come from a place of privilege, and people who have ane where can actually deal with a lot more scarcity day to day just knowing that it's there. It's a psychological thing. Yeah, like having having the option of I mean, like I've always been kind of scanted, but like worst case, i could go back to Brockton, Massachusetts and live in my Pappy's house. You know, Like that sort of thing, which is like a sort of privilege that is not checked in movies very often. Definitely Pappy's shack and literally in Pappy's crumbling home. It's a Peppy s anyone who's ever been to my Pappy's crumbling home. Pappy shatew Jamie's safe space every time I called my father gently takes out of his teeth and says, it's always an option, um, to remove your to have no teeth, you know, to move back into his crumbling check all that to say, it is an option, and I am fortunate to have it, certainly, And it is kind of like I felt checked in that way too, and I was like, yes, like that is not something that's called out very often. Good. This is I think pretty standard for this genre. But so many movies that you know, take place in New York and or are about artists or otherwise future people who appear to be so abundantly wealthy that you're just confused about how how do you afford this apartment? And so Yeah, the fact that it's even her you know, struggling financial situation is called attention to in the through line of the plot is just yeah, her her real estate struggles, because I think the plot is separated by the different locations that she has to live. Yeah, it's address next act right there. The money aspects of this movie that were like more realistic than most things you would see because that one of the scenes that like hit for me, I think when I first saw it, even more so than now, was her having to remind her wealthier roommates like yeah, that she's paying less and that they agree read to that, because I think that was maybe the only thing I related with this movie the first time around, was like she it's implied that Adam Driver and the guy from Marvelous Mrs Maizel are like to kind of trust fund babies who don't have much to worry about, and they're artists too, so their peers, but they're not really class wise because she's from kind of like a middle class family who support her but can't support her, and so she has to remind them from the couch that she's only paying nine fifty and that they said that that was okay, right, And then it's like this awkward interact like I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot okay. So I'm like, wow, who has like an extra three months, right, which I mean Adam Driver. I like him. I like him. Are you trying to convince yourself still? No? I don't want to like him. I want to because his career trajectory is fucking baffling. He was in the army. He puts on operas for the army tremor so like, I'm like, is he like a testament to male mediocrity? And if so, why do I like it? Like he it's just weird, but whatever, I like it, And I think he's a good He does a good job in this movie. I think he might. I think he's on track to be our our nation's next Kanu. Interesting. Yeah, we're like, well, I think he's like Kanu in that, And I'm like, I don't know if he's good, but I never hate to see him. Yeah, there's he's so compelling and for being sort of a big star, there's actually something still kind of enigmatic. He's about Oscar nominated as like that. I'm just like, we've gone too far. Maybe he shouldn't have been nominated for an Oscar. What was he nominated? Nominated for Black Klansmen. I didn't know Adam Driver. Yeah, I didn't even know he was in Black Klansmen. You hate to see it, but he is. There's a moment. I think it's at the end of the day, the one day that of Adam Driver's character and Francisco on. He basically tries to give her not a surprise kiss, but it's like a surprise touch on her shoulder and she just goes and then like tightens up, and which is like one of the many moments in this movie where we're like, that was a little too man like Pixie Dreamgirl on the execution, but I appreciate what you were doing. He was exaggerated, but I have, you know, pulled that move. Sure, I'm not trying to say that, like the aartriistic merit of this movie is completely predicated on me relating to it, but I have listen, Okay, like I'm a cancer survivor, but like nothing really prepares you for being diagnosed as quirky. And I think that's something that every woman in this room has struggled with. Yes, you know, we're all recovering, we're all recovering adorables all, we're all recovering, not like the other girls. It's funny because I felt like that was a good It was maybe exaggerated, but I thought that was a really real moment in that I feel like most encounters, if they're not if they are consensual, but you're not on the same page, they're not very articulate, where it's like may I touch you here? And then it's like yes. It's usually someone having the sense through body language that this is not okay, and sometimes that can like erupt in awkward ways. Well, what we always see. I don't even mind her reaction, um, and I would like to get into the kind of like you know, Manning Pixie discussion of this. But what I enjoy is that we see so much in movies a you know, surprise kiss or surprise touch, which is framed as being this like wonderfully romantic moment that happens even though only one party is privy to what's about to happen and no one has given consent. But it's like to look like a gesture and not a yet right, not a like you know, borderline sexual assault kind of thing. Yeah, So I like that she gives like a reaction because you know, she didn't consent and and she reacts appropriate. I think that whole scene with their date, though, I enjoyed in general because I like he is a master at being at as acting like a Brooklyn douchebag and is playing in that part masterfully and in this scene and like made me laugh at a lot of different points because he's playing this douchebag that she's like kind of visibly not impressed by. Where there's that whole thing where he you know, he's showing herself on his phone. It's so cringe e. He's like, yeah, this meal into a basketball game once. You like basketball, right, And she's like, oh, I went to a game once, and he's like yeah, anyways, motorcycle. Yeah, anyways is me and jay Leno keeps and then she goes back to his apartment. I love the way the way the male characters kind of flattened, but they're like kids, like showing her their toys, Like when they go back to the apartment, Benji's always showing her like, look at these things. I go, look at my old camera. It's so it's showing like traditional flirting tactics that I think in a different movie would be made out to seem like really cute or cool, and it like makes them look kind of pathetic in this context. And it's kind of nice to see like a Brooklyn trust fund boy look pathetic because they very often are. Or like when she she insists on paying for dinner for their date, and it is very funny because it's like that's another way that her brokenness comes into play because her card gets rejected, she has to like go pay a three dollar fee at an a t M, which is a triggering experience we've all had. But then he like is also a dick about that in a way where he's like, you know, a sleepie right, and she's like what and he's like, oh, I'm just pretending to be a liberated woman, and and then and she's like and she's like ha ha okay, Like I don't know. The way that date scene played out, I thought was like at least, I mean, I guess that's kind of the point of movies like this. Like in a movie where the female character is there to set an example for other women, she would be like, you're full of shit. But in a movie that I think that it's reflecting an awkward situation that has happened to lot of people. She's kind of just like whatever, like and trying to get through it, which is cool to see. Two in terms of I mean movies, I mean even not having a style as a style, so it's like you have to like pick and shoes when your character is going to have the like the articulate breakthrough, and that's like, that wasn't the moment for it, because it's not about her relationship with minutes about her relationship with her friends. So that's why her big articulate moment is that this dinner party talking about a hypothetical relationship and it turns out it's with her. Yeah, can we talk more about that. Let's talk about it in conclusion. Adam Driver is Milady. The character Mr Good good job my man anyway has a motorcycle. I think, yeah, they have kind of a weird I just wrote down. Francis is codependent behavior. It is definitely contrasted, obviously in the first two scenes where she's like, I can't move in with you because I have to stay with my friend, and the whole just just just the apologizing and the I feel bad, I feel bad, I feel guilty. It's so but her friend, and I know she's sort of maybe the Sophie character. I feel like it's flattened to be a little more like, not as artsy or weird, but she's definitely more self possessed in that, you know, she has her own thing that she wants to do, and it's like checking in with Francis, but it is like I'm going to do this. I want to move out because I've o my dream of living in this neighborhood, which is maybe longer than I've known you, is like important, So I'm checking in, but I'm telling you this is what I want. And that's something that I didn't understand about the movie when I first thought that I understand now of just like I guess, just like this friendship as adorable as it is in the opening, but it's like they're twenty seven years old. They need boundaries, and that's something that I think that Sophie recognizes first. And so it's weird because I think when I first watched this movie, you sort of view her as like, oh, why is she hurting francis Is feelings the sex? But then it's just like no, she just like it's not that she's breaking off the friendship. She just needs to change the boundaries of it. And that makes sense for what we see in the opening sequence. Yeah, the first you just her she's the unsympathetic, non artsy character and there's a really low moment I thought it was actually kind of mean where frances Is like, oh, Sophie's not smart. She doesn't even read, and I was like, so mean she does at work. A big thing is like because the character like Patch, like Sophie's kind of crappy boyfriend. That's sort of in the background, the fact that Sophie's character just continues to stay with him, and it's not so flattened that it's like he's horrible. It's just that Frances doesn't like him, and it's probably implied he doesn't like him just because she takes up right, which I also didn't recognize on first watch. The whole just that she recognizes what Frances doesn't like about her boyfriend, and it's just like okay, noted, like I'm staying with this person. And there's a cute moment kind of where she's just finally like I do like you, like I like you too, And it's like that complicated, Like Frances, she is not totally wrong about Patch, but she's saying it for the wrong reasons. She's expressing it for the wrong reasons, and that does play out where like Sophie and Patch don't end up together, so Ifie ends up like a lot of like everyone's had a friend's significant other that you're not crazy about, don't Sophie and Patch they do end up together. Didn't they get married? Oh wait, she says she's going to leave. Then she doesn't, but then we cut till later and they're like, yeah, we got married, Which is funny because it makes me feel like that sort of behavior something maybe like that comes up with Sophie just when they're together. They like to have this. They do their like little New York fantasy thing when they're together, and then when they were apart, she's like, well, maybe I should just like be with this dude. Yeah. I was like super cool to see not like a merry Sue female friendship where like and again it's it's just like the kind of movie this is where some movies you want to see a perfectly functioning female friendship, like in Captain Marvel, that's what you want to see because it is a setting example of movie. This is more of like a Marble Corey realist thing, and it's nice to see a friendship between women that is like complicated. There are different points in their hand and in their life, and it's just like more of a reflection of and as much as like there are some of the very Sioux friendships that I really enjoy. But in a way, I feel like it's a little bit limiting in that it just leads to the idea that all female friendships have to be perfect, which of course they're not. I mean, it's the testament that even like, even if your feelings change about the movie, like we all, I think we all feel a little bit differently from the first time we saw it years ago too, now that it's uh, it's more nuance. It's not like the real the friendship is horrible or toxic either. It's just it's freaking there. I mean, they're they're growing as people at different rates. Like you said, there's like Sophie realizes that maybe they're too codependent for she's the first one to realize this, or that she like they've just sort of entwined each other in their lives a bit too too much all that stuff. They've been character development wise developed enough that you know, they've been given these nuances that we don't see. It's it's cool, I mean, and just like in general of any gender seeing a friendship that is like, yeah, like not completely black and white toxic, but just like these characters are growing apart a little bit is something that happens to people all the time that I feel like it's really hard to communicate on screen, Like it's hard to dramatize like the natural you know, widening of friendship or someone who's like feeling a little bit left behind, or the other person who's feeling a little frustrated and being like, why don't you get it? Like I mean, I just still happened to me sometimes just in my personal life, where I have a friend that I just kind of don't want to be friends with anymore, and there's no it's sorry, Jamie, I started telling you that I don't want to be your friend. Anywhere she told me, people grow apart or there maybe their interests were never that similar to begin with, but you end up in a friendship with someone. But there's no etiquette for like breaking up with a friend that hasn't been established in in the world, or even like renegotiating the boundaries of a friendship. Right it only takes one person to do that though. I mean, however the other person reacts, is that's true? Sure? Have you ever had to do something like that? I'm really I'm doing it with like five different people right now, Well, what I end up doing is just basically what Sophie does is just to kind of withdraw and like avoid the person and like just not share as much with them. And then so I really feel bad for the people who are on the receiving end of this, which in this movie Francis is, which is like and that's a sign, but that's a sign of codependence as well. Is that when someone else, not even saying that the Sophie after was doing it in exactly the perfect or sensitive way that codependent people will react to other people's boundaries with offense and you know, we'll be just reactionary and take everything personally right, and it's like and it is it was a little like I've only successfully done those ones or twice, but like when you do sort of like say like this is my new boundary, like whatever, and then seeing like you're like, I know I'm hurting this other person but you never see it. But in France of how you see it and you see her going the sad vacation and you see her be like like it's just a lot of this movie truly, Like watching it with my friend, it was like tough to watch, but then after we stopped watching it and it was over, like we were talking about it for a full hour, and I was just like, I feel so I feel bad after watching that. She's like, I think it's because we understand it's hard to make the Sophie character sympathetic when it's like, I don't know, maybe she's the healthy one. I mean obviously not. No one's perfect. Quick shout out to Mickey Sumner. I don't know what she did after this movie. Just the actress who played Sophie. She was so good. She's really really good. Yeah, I I let me see it. I don't know what she's done since, but I mean I saw She's Nandy Gales. It was even weirder. I watched it with my boyfriend, like in bed, and I don't know why that was. And especially there's a part where she's she does her big thing about like, you know, finding your person, which is weird because it's very Gray's anatomy. Isn't that to like dogs, Like you know, when I talk about like my dog being too anxious or attached. He's like, oh, well, you're just her person, And I'm like, yeah, that's a thing for dogs, no for people. It's tight. Yeah, like this is I don't know. This was like a way more effective coming of age story than I remembered it. Yeah, and especially because it's it's for the second coming of age that people do, because most coming of age stories are around like Tea means like oh I'm the high Yeah, and then interesting, which she did later with like Ladybird. I think Melissa said up and where she was like, oh so like lady Bird is like the prequel to Frances Ha and Lady Bird eventually becomes Francis Hall because we've already seen her family in Sacramento and she like started to galaxy headcanon right there. We got to take another quick break, but then hey, guess what, We'll come right back. Can we talk Frances undateable really quick? Because that was like the one part of this movie other than like the I mean it was the fly in my soup of the cinematic experience. Yes, like it was. I didn't like the implied potential romance with what's his name Benji. I didn't like that, but it remained in the background enough of the movie that it wasn't like distracting. It certainly didn't ruin it for me. But the whole like them trying to catch fright, Like, haven't she said this before that like a character as like a living studio note. It feels like maybe that's like, you know, someone at Prison Pictures was like, well, there has to be some kind of you know, he love story in there. I want to give Greta Gerwig the credit and say that I don't think that this was her idea, like, because the focus of the movie from the most part remains on Francis and Francis and Sophie's friendship and like Francis sort of having to accept that compromises a part of life. But with the Benji stuff, yeah, like it does sort of he serves. The best part of him I thought was him pointing out that she's not as like extremely poor she makes herself out to be. That was like a cool, valid use of him. But then like I didn't like the scenes where they're supposed to be flirting there because he's into each other and they're making it seem like whoa may be. But at the time we at the time we see them together here he's totally nugging her. And then there's that weird scene where they're talking and he's in there, oh God, and it's like I've I mean, I feel like a lot of people have had an experience like this that is just very uncomfortable, where the guys, like, you know, everyone says we should date and then you're like, oh really he's like yeah, but I was like no, she's just cool. And like that whole scene, I mean, maybe bros Right, maybe cringe because it's like, you know, I've had that experience. But then but then the fact that they still kind of present him is romantically viable after you find out he's that kind of like weird guy just didn't feel great. And the fact that he's constantly nugging her as what I think the movie frames as a flirtation technique for him, he's like, oh yeah, just by implying that he's still on the table. I feel like that it's funny, like, OK, let's try to reframe this as artistic merits. So what isn't isn't it? So like true to life though that, like, you know, even though she finds her voice artistically, which in and of itself is a compromise of what she saw as her artistic she still end up she still might end up with like just some guy some like naggy, tiny little man like kind of you know, teases her, and probably the more successful as she gets as a choreographer, he's gonna like it's gonna be a little weirder and more resentful. Where I decided I was done with that character. Officially, it was when he was like, you should leave your door open, like with that part when he at the end of the scene where he's been nagging her the whole time, he's like, we should date, but no, we shouldn't like that whole fucking I mean truly coming from I I have here's my deep shame. I have dated a Brooklyn trust fund boy. His father used to be the president of something called um and Ron. No, it was like called the Patriotic Millionaires. It was really bad, it was some of it was a very troubling seven weeks of my life. Anyways, like most trust fund boys in Brooklyn, he very abruptly married a graphic designer. Okay, okay, you just you go to the you go to the wing. They put him all in the window. You go to the wing. All the graphic designers are just kind of lined up in the window like puppies. They have a little cut up newspaper from the play around her and he's past and you're like that one eat, yeah there she is. So anyways, wish him the best whatever, But like that that like a whole that whole vibe being presented as like maybe this will work out. I'm just like, no, this shouldn't even for like a realist movie. Please, let's just like let's let's spare Francis has the potential funny. I felt a little bit the opposite in that moment that after he was a dick, the one even though it was didn't come off right. The one nice thing he said was like, I'll leave it open in case you need anything, And I was like, okay, see I hated that she's she said closed, and then he convinced her to leave it open like he was she because he was like open her, open her clothes and she's like probably close and he's like, well but what if you need me? Right? And then she and then she's like okay open like that, I was just like, oh, you tried a newspaper to play around. And I was done with him as soon as he said, yeah, my buddy at SNL is going to get me a job. Oh my god, it's so upset. We all have a buddy at SNL. Literally everyone in this room has a buddy at SNL and we're not to Yeah, and like, guess what, they're not getting you a job. I mean that at least that was Yeah, that sort of posturing. You're just like, yep, that man exists. It was such a good character portrait though, we're just like, here's me floating through life. Yeah, it's going to happen. That doesn't happen. Then you know this other thing that I'm doing, different takes on. Then that's the thing. This movie does a really good job at showcasing mostly unlikable people because well, maybe this is the time to get into like Francis as a Manning pixie dreamgirl type, but she because she is a more realistic, less exaggerated version of this trouble because I actually, I mean, she has those tendencies, but I feel like I know people basically just like her, So it didn't feel like she was like this caricature. Yeah. What sucks is it suffers because I think it did a pretty good job of just creating a sort of slightly eccentric character. But that is living under this looming shadow of this broad, shitty archetype that we've lived with for so long. I did. I did do a bit of homework. I wrote something now, please Please, which I think this is like some weird noah bum back. I don't know whose idea. It is, like sort of easter egg as to like, this is this is the key to the movie, sort of please Okay. The opening montage where it's sort of like the Friendship montage. They're kind of, you know, hanging out, they're playing in the park, they're talking, and I think this is on purpose. There's a lot of moments where it just shows them talking, but the dialogue is unintelligible. And then there's one moment where they're sitting on the couch and Frances like looks at from a book. She goes, oh, this is interesting. Listen to this, and this is the quote she reads from the book that she's reading, which I don't know if it was made up for the movie or it's actually from something, but she says, to praise a work of literature by calling it sincere is now at best a way of saying that although it may be given no esthetic or intellectual admiration, and then it cuts off into the next shot. So I'm kind of like it's a weird thing to bring up with a lot of qualifiers about like although or that sincerity is now an excuse for basically I think it's saying that, like to say that sincerity is a compliment is to just sort of um, you know, avoid the question of like intellectual or aesthetic merit. So to say something says something has artistic merit by dint of just being sincere is basically just say it's not good any other way. It's like if you're describing person who is like very boring, you say, oh, but they're really nice, they're really down to earth. But she also, like it also cuts off the quote. It's implied that there's a whole other clouds of that sentence for this author, who may or be real or someone they invented for the shot, is going to explain or finish that thought, or just like these guys that they're tricky. I mean, I wonder if that's in response to like maybe one of Noah bombox previous movies having been called sincere, and he's like, well, here's what I think about I'm gonna I'm going to rewatch Squid in the Whale I hated I saw when I was like fifteen. I feel like that might be why I liked it. I don't know. I remember that someone masturbates in a library in that movie, and that's legitimately all I remembers. The coolest thing. I'm like, they masturbated on screen, and it's about divorce. I'm masturbated. My parents are divorced. I'm good for me. I had i f C Channel. Not to bragging in this subscribe listen, Honestly, canonically, if you had the I f C Channel when you were in middle school, high school, you will end up dating a Brooklyn Tussac someday. It's unfortunately one of the sad facts of life. I washed my hands of them. Yes, moving right along. I think that Francis. Another thing that I picked up on a second watch was that I feel like she's kind of in some ways, she's kind of supposed to be annoying, Like there's there's that whole dinner scene that at the time when I first saw it, I was like, Oh, this is like Manic Pixie dream girl, boring, dumb. But if she were a true manic Pixie dream girl. People would be very charmed and really like her, or they would be like or they would be painted as like broad like asshole, so that you sympathize with the character, but you're you're like on the side of the people who have to endore whatever for weird. They're like nice people trying not to let this girl like ruin their dinner party. And then there's another scene where I think it's Rachel, her Dan's friend who she stays with. She's like, I guess trying to find a new best friend because Sophie is effectively another thing that happened. And then so she's like, Okay, you're my new best friend, Rachel. Let's play fight. And Rachel's like what And then she keeps like kind of trying to push her and do this like playfight thing that she and Sophie used to do that we saw, but like Rachel is not into it at all. She's just like, dude, what the hell? Because she like pushes her out of friend and it's so awkward and it's like, oh, you're just hitting a woman, and she does, You're you're striking another grown adults, and like Rachel's being like I don't want to do this, please stop, And then she's just like very annoyingly continuing to do it. So, yeah, that's just like Frances go to alan On, come on there. Yeah, it's it's a unique low. At least, I don't know, quit wearing leggings under dresses. If you're not going to go to alan On and recover from Coat of Fantasy, at least, I'll just go to L Labo there. I don't know what that is. You don't know the cult of La Labo. Just like Christina shows me everything she brought she brought me to Moogie for the first time. I don't know what that is either. All I know is that, like, if you're a woman and you live in Brooklyn and you have any money whatsoever. Actually, even if you don't have money, you like you're supposed to wear scent from La Labo. It's just like fancy perfume. Specifically, if you walk through like bush Wick or Ridgewood, you're just gonna get this general vibe. But it was just thick with the waft of us of something that you can't quite put your finger on, and it's it's on to all thirty three. Oh, there's trends in perfume. Yeah, and it's only means so much coming from pack a flock of women who live in Los Angeles. But I'm very glad I don't live there. Hey, I read the cut there, listen. I read the cut and run out of five three articles and I hardly stop. You are not getting five dollars a month, no, ma'am um. Yeah, I don't know. I think that it is like what I first interpreted to be a manic pixie dream girl, I think is actually more interesting, which is a woman who seems to be like kind of aping manic pixie dream girls and it being annoying to see, which is kind of cool because I feel like a lot of young women, I mean, and I can't speak to it right now, but it's like I definitely had friends in like high school and college who were going for that that it did not you know, they saw Garden State and they're like, oh what if I'm like that. They're like, what if it does? Made no sense? And like you just and you see you see people have to course correct and have to like kind of like friends. Does she has to grow up? I think that's a that's a big part of like anyone's artistic awakening is realizing that you can't just act like an artist or be eccentric as a way of like masking your right the can we talk about the you have to earn it, okay, And of course there's like of the I feel like a lot of tropes are commented on in this movie in a way that I think it's like really cool and interesting, like it seems like in retrospect them. I feel like the manic Pixie dreamgirl trope is pretty heavily commented on in this movie in a way that I thought was generally pretty effective. One of the things that I just I'm just exhausted by and it will be done forever is just like New York as a character, and I it is my understanding based on some bare bones research that the scene there's like really the only scene I remembered from this movie was GREGI Grewig dancing in the crosswalk to Modern Love, which I guess is paying homage to a different movie. Every time I go into a crosswalk in New York, I end up punching a car. Why But yeah, so so the whole, Like I feel like the whole this movie would have been cool to see, like New York, the whole New York is a character trope, like commented on more thoroughly, but it didn't really And I don't know, I mean, I mean New York is one character in movies all the time. We were talking about the like because I was watching my boyfriend and we were trying to think of, like, is there an l A equivalent to this movie? Just like a low key I mean, there's so many movies set in and about l A with like l A is a character, but they're they're fucking crazy, And I think like the best ones that are about l A, like Maholland Drive and Repo Man, I'm like, yeah, they got it, but but where's the one that's just like maybe it would be too bad, Like yeah, white kids lolling around talking about their dreams and like not in a way that's making fun of people who want to be actors. Like I don't know, I mean, I don't know if this is a good example, but like Ingrid Goes West does that sort of I think I think I think that the commentary was a little hamphased because but I thought, yeah, I feel there's a few visually they got the lifestyle pretty good, you know, um, I don't know, there's well Christina, is there not a oh, there's a well it's There's a really good three hour video essay by this filmmaker Tom Anderson called Los Angeles Plays Itself and it's a really beautiful commentary about how Los Angeles is depicted in movies, kind of large. L A is a character, but also l A disguised as other cities, which is a big part of making movies here. But it's amazing because the whole movie, it's three hours and it's completely cut from other movies, with Tom Maison just sort of narrating and analyzing over it. That's really cool. And we don't need we don't need that movie about New York. So I feel like it's made itself over and ever, well, we'll tweet out a link to that. That sounds. Yeah, I'm excited. Isn't it just like Philip at The equivalent would be like a Philip Ross novel. I don't know, speaking of of cities that play themselves in movies constantly at nausea him Gretig Garwood goes to Paris in this movie. I feel like it's really new York and Paris are the cities that do it to the point where you're like, I just never need to see this again in my entire life, or at least the kind that is presented. But I feel like in this movie, Paris as a character is commented on where this was one of the four like this, yeah, we were talking about like this was a scene that I think I was. I don't really remember, but I didn't. I definitely didn't understand the point of her going to Paris by herself and being miserable. And I think my first read of it when I was much younger, was like, oh, like, what a whiner she's in Paris, Like this is so cool, And then I like the way that it's framed in the movie now though, where it's clear that she can't afford to be doing this, it seems to be a knee jerk reaction to her feeling insecure about her place in life. She's just going into debt kind of for no reason to seem like she's doing better than she is. Well, it seems like I thought that it was even smart and that like she's going because she's seen too many movies where people find themselves in Paris, and she does this immediately after she hears from someone else that Sophie is moving abroad to Tokyo. So she's like, well, I can go somewhere else too, is what it feels like she's doing. And the lesson is, wherever you go, you're still there. And so she sleeps through almost the entire time that she's because she like stays up all night because she's like probably has like whatever, she's on a different time zone. She stays up way too late, doesn't do anything. She's just like hanging out in the apartment, and then she sleeps to like four pm the next day, and like has wasted pretty much the whole day, and then she's calling her friend who's there can't get ahold of her, so like essentially does nothing the last minute when she's already on her way back to New York, Like it's I think the worst part, and I think this speaks to her codependent behavior. The only reason why her trip is so short because she's blowing all her money on the plane ticket she has a free place to stay, is she's like, I have to go now, but I have to be back Monday at three pm to have this important meeting with my boss and she can't even doesn't even have the wherewithal to reschedule it ahead of time. And even when she gets here, her boss is like, I almost canceled it this morning, but like I had gas or whatever. Yeah, God, that that done. That I rushed back from somewhere to be disappointed and dismissed like it, or just to be at a thing that you felt was more important than the other person. Did that, like it could have been changed. Oh, it's so embarrassing, Like, wait, you flew back from Paris to be at business meeting. It all has to do with the fact that her character has not fully grown up. Even though she has seven she's still rather immature. She's not very self aware. She needs to have a second coming of age. As you know, many people, it would be adorable, right right, but maybe because she's a handful of years older, it starts to look I don't know, I mean, but that was what I really like. Something I really liked about the video is like, I mean, having to learn how to head your expectations. We talked that, and I mean we talked about this here and there, but representation of female mediocrity. But we will not achieve equality until mediocre are as interesting as mediocre men. Exactly totally, which is like most of these Brooklyn movies as mediocre men feeling bad for themselves. So almost not the goodest denim company in New York, I don't know. Oh yes there is. There was one called Making It in America and it was about two It was a show. It was on HBO about two guys trying to start a denim company. I feel sick, gritty, you know, crime ridden denim company a really ground breaking but they do the distressing by just firing a K forty seven's at it um. But like, how crazy would it be to pitch a show about like a woman trying to start an etc. Store in Brooklyn? I mean, but have it not be a joke. This is a very serious light. Have you seen the show Girl Boss? Well it was bad. It was canceled off. It was but it was like that was I mean, that movie was that. I mean that show was dogship, but it was it was female media, but it was dogshit just because everyone did a bad job on it. The idea itself is not horrible, like I like seeing and I feel like again it's it's like representing women in movies should not be this hard, but it is where I feel like we have sort of had in recent years and influx of hashtag inspirational Mary Sue type characters who we need to see succeed at the end of the movie, because that is the first step of representation, is seeing someone in the most perfect light possible to justify their existence at all, Right, and then and then and trickle down to more nuanced representations, right and then in this way, it's like it does still feel like it's like, well, we can only see it when it's like a pretty like western beauty standards, middle class white lady. But you still see like a more nuanced female character than you normally would. You are allowed to see her fail and like struggle with that and need to like it's cool. I don't know, I do, like I think about this a lot, and I'm like, the wider, wider question is like and I think it just gets to the heart of like the idea of the individual in a western social manager And is that like, why do I have to see myself reflected in media? Yeah? And that is but that is so deep. I don't think we'll ever go to the point where we can actually interrogate that because it is important. But and now we're at the point where you kind of have to just cherry pick at one at the time, like, okay, Francis Hawk, Okay, we're gonna have a character that's like kind of doesn't succeed and it's about compromise. But she has to be like blond and cute, the like if she's maybe a person of color, well then well we gotta like up it here, you know what I mean. It feels like I don't know if we're obviously we're not there because even when it happens, it feels like a balancing acts of like I have to check these boxes and unchecked these to make this cultural product palatable and marketable. I mean, we kind of talked about that on the Book Smart episode where they like they clearly had like a quote wokealist where it's like, all right, we want to talk about these things as it as it pertains to you know, women and feminism and things like that. But then they like erased women of color from the whole movie. So it's like, if you know, and that's the question of like ethics versus artistic merricks. It's like, okay, well, if you're going to make there's a reason why we make fun of after school specials because their morality plays like they are moral statements disguised as entertainment. And there was a fine line between creating like equitable representation versus like, well, I'm just checking the like the morality boxes at the expense of you know, but maybe that's bullshit too, because if if the whole history of the medium is predicated on exclusion, then the question of good or bad does become moral as well. You sound like such a scholar. I wrote this down. I was having a text I think this is true. I was having a text conversation with my boyfriend. We were arguing about like craft and no boys allowed. Sorry my headeral life partner supplied to me by Lord Bezos what saying. I was just getting so mad, I mean, and he I don't know how this started, but we were he was like trying to buy a rug from Afghanistan. Then we got into this whole argument about ethics and art, and I just tried to like end it by saying, like the ethics of art is just a mobia strip of necessary and good on one side, and then the immoral on the other side, and history just kind of paints them both different colors until they bump into each other. Like, dude, I saw the Avengers with you. We both know that's how Robert Downey Jr. Invinced time travel. I mean, these things are, it's it's also historically determined. So who knows, like twenty years from now, this movie or book smart are going to seem like so pat and cloying, right, I mean, when we're still doing the podcast from now a garbage can fight, But my sugar crystals are actually just parts of the barrier reef of they melt in my coffee. We'll have a little generator and a floaty and it's gonna be Isaac on a bicycle. That's how we run the and that's our feminism at this point, that men are electricity. Now there. It's I think it's interesting that you're describing almost as a scale or of like, well, if this is true, and this needs to because it does seem like female representation in general, Like it is like if if these things are flawed, then these things need to be quote unquote not flawed. And like, I mean, could you make a movie like Francis hot with a non white character at this time. I don't know that that would have experienced success in the same way that this movie did, or that it would have been accepted in the same way this movie did. And that's worth discussing. And I think that that is like something that is still present in as much as I like enjoyed it and I thought it was a fun ramp of a movie like Book Smart to me felt like to an extent, like kind of a checklist kind of movie. And the good thing about that means that at least hitting some points like that is now marketable and is now like something that people will give you money to make if you're a very famous white lady already. But you know, it's like, at least the idea of movies that feature women that are flawed to an ext gent as marketable is really cool and indicates progress. And I don't know, I feel like this movie, like Francis House, almost like a little bit of an outlier. I mean, it also helps that it was really cheap to make. Is three million dollar budget, yea, so super super cheap. You know, no one in this movie was really famous. Yet I feel like Noah bomb Back is most likely the reason that this got made because he had had a few successes already, and it was like, I think it's her first movie that she co wrote. That let me just assuming a lot. She probably think did she write any of these mumblecore Also, she's a very good actress, because I think this movie, I just felt like, oh my gosh, she's just being sort of awkwardly herself. But then I saw twentieth Century Women, I'm like, oh, Gretor, she's a real actress because she plays a much more also a weird artist, but more articulate kind of together. I'm like, oh, a character that I don't conflate with Gretor gerwigs. So I don't know. Her first credited writing thing is like because she made a bunch of Joe Swanberg movies. So for those Joe Swanberg was like Mr Mumblecore. He lived in Chicago. He made that shitty Netflix show Easy, so if you liked it, I thought it was shitty, but whatever. He made a bunch of these early mumblecore movies. So her first credited writing credit was on a two thousand seven movie called Hannah Takes the Stairs. Haven't seen it, but that was can and then she directed her first movie. She directed a mumblecore movie in OH eight that she wrote as well. But this is I mean it was Lady Burden on her first director. I thought that was her directorial debut. But I'm gonna go ahead and say I think no Uh and Greta greater than the some of their parts. Oh, I agree, because I like this better than Lady Brod and I definitely liked it better than anything Noah bum Box has done. I definitely like this is my favorite. I mean, I've only I'm pretty sure I've only seen two or three. He made that shitty movie with Ben Stiller, right, Greenberg? Is that right? Okay? I mix up Noah Bomba and Joe Swanberg all the time because I just really don't know what makes more money. That's true. That's true, and for a man, we gotta hand it to them. Greta Gerwiggs directorial debut was a mumblecore flop with Joe Swanberg, but it was made for fifteen dollars um, so you know, like I think Lady Bird was her like her big her. It's yeah, it's credited solo directorial debut directed in a way either way this was. This was Greta Gerwig's big break. I think is like it's viewed as and I think that that is that is a great and a slight, a very slight tip of the hat to know a bombok for um really featuring her and giving her the credit she deserves, because it seems like there's if this movie. I would guess if this movie was just written by Noah Bamba, it wouldn't have had the focus on the female friendship, it wouldn't have had the focus on her, and it wouldn't have reflected her experience as well as it does. Um. No, it's funny. I remember when it came out reading an interview with Noah bum Back, which if I remember correctly, it's funny that they was a magazine piece just about Noah Bumba for the release of this movie, of course, but he did say that, yeah, it was kind of he had to coax her into writing it because at that time in her life, I think she was probably like twenty seven or maybe in her maybe a little later, almost thirty, and she was sort of venting about these frustrations in her own career, and he was just like, that's fascinating write it down, but so um, which is the point. The point is that like you need a man to point out to what's interesting about you and what's worthy about you artistically in order to put it out into the world. And I feel like it's almost a reflection of the Okay, I'm going to give an example from a friend that who may or may not have been on this podcast previously, but I don't know if she wants me to put her in blast that way, but an example of like how I think women very often are are trained to underestimate themselves for things that men will just be like, oh, of course I can do this, And how at times having a male ally to tell you, you know, no, you are ready to do this is important and I think, like that is cool. Like my, but my, my, my dear friend was considering running for office inside of like this social group that she had she had been a part of for almost two years, but then was repeatedly saying like, I don't know if I'm ready. I don't know if like people think seriously enough, I don't know if I've proven myself in this group quite enough. And then when they were announcing, Okay, who's going to run for this position. Three guys who had been there less than a month. We're like, I think I'm ready. And so then that was what comms sort of like, no, I've fucking been ready for this. All these people who just got here think that they're ready, and so I mean, for better or worse, that's the real thing, and that's important, Like yeah, slide props to to know a bomb box for you know, saying what does it really needed to be said? Because she was ready. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go onto the street and ask all the dudes if I'm ready, only they will be able to tell you. Well, all I have to say if you are a man with any power or influence that is in a position to you know, encourage, Yeah, lift up, produce put that Yeah, like put the spot on the money who deserves it, that hasn't had it go down on without expecting anything in return. Don't always choose the person who has exactly your experience, or nothing will ever happen. Ding Uh. One little just quick thing I wanted to point out is in the beginning, when Francis and Sophie are still getting along splendidly, um, they're talking about their futures and the things that they want, and they're like, yeah, we'll do this, and I think this is when this it's did a point in the movie where they're getting along and they're close, they say, we'll have lovers and no children. And I just appreciate visibility for women who don't want to have kids. As someone as a woman who does not want to have children, it's always refreshing to see that represented. Yeah, so the end, I like it. I like at all? Is there is there anything else that anyone wanted to hit on before me? I've been to Paris there, How could you have gone this far into this announce So I just wanted to say that as someone who kind of found herself in Paris at one point actually a year for this movie. I mean, it couldn't have happened, but it was the kind of thing where I got off the plane and I remember thinking, oh my god, like it actually does look Paris looks like Paris. It looks like exactly like every postcard and movie and thing you've seen. And there's something deeply sad about that. And I just I haven't I haven't recovered. I have to go back every month, absolutely so well, luckily you have that free place to stay. And I like to blurt that out at dinner to Paris. Just I mean, honestly, Yeah, if if we're out and more than two seconds passes, she says, it's any any love silence in the car. I've been to Paris. Do you have an iPhone charge where I can use? May I just say that I've been to parents money, I've been to Paris. If you lose on a slot machine, I've been to Paris, knocked the whole thing over. May I just say that I've been to Paris. There can only be one female protagonists fight each other. Regretfully, I went in two, so I went there first. Okay, well clearly, yeah, someone who does things the first time is the only time that it matters. So okay, I can see thank you, thank you so much, thank you so much. Who won the podcast today is a question? Um? Yeah, I think that was all I had to say about the failed I just I guess. Yeah. This was one of the few examples in the history of this podcast that I have gone back and rewatched a movie and looked on it fonder than I did when I first watched it. I did want to say I mean, I had a fabulous time when it was really great discussing movie. It was pretty low on my list, yes for five options, and this was like the probably fifth and I was like, really, we already did dressing the pussy Cat. I thought, I looked at the thing, well you've done, and we have to guests had to save me Lord Bezos. She just got themes up. Yeah, ship Now I'm glad we reviewed this though, and I think, yeah, I'm glad we did it to those who requested it. I hope you enjoyed it. But ladies, does it pass the Bechtel test? Oh? I don't think no yet, I think so. Yeah, there's some really quirky grading passes in the Bechtel tested, just a new subsection of the test. Is it a quirky pass but there is a lot of But yeah, it's like, you know, Sophie and Francis are talking, Rachel and Francis are talking. It passes in like the first ten seconds, Yeah, and continues to do. She's like, I wouldn't eat a dog and he's like, yeah, you add Oh. The last thing I did want to say is I liked representation of a failed attempt at being a guy's gal for a couple of months. I have also I've also tried to be a guy scale first band of months. It never ends well. And I was like, make me not like other girls exactly. She is, Oh, it is nice to see a girl like I'm not like the other girls and see it be like, oh, it would actually be really chill if I could hang out with my friend who's a girl again. Um, much much better. Um it does pass. And shall we just a little rating, get a little rating? Sure, nip scale. Yeah, so we've we've got a nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based on its representation and tree mint of women, i'd sam between like a three and a three and a half on this where largely the movie is about a female friendship, which, as we've said before and we'll see again, is not the focus of most movies. So it's because most movies the focus is either a hetero relationship between a man and a woman or it is two boys. The boys are there and they're having a friendship. So nice to see female friendship celebrated, and as we've discussed, in a way that is not like a perfect Mary Sue kind of thing where it's just like, oh, look how awesome these women are and they're just so they get along so well, because that is not representative of real life. So we get to see these two different characters grow apart, come back together again, all this stuff because of their you know, individual nuances and issues that they have and are you know, trying to grow from and move through and all that stuff. So nice to see fairly well rounded characters and in their friendship and that be the focus of the movie. Um, you know, female mediocrity is something that we do appreciate. And Frances, I don't know, I'm like, I'm like, she's not mediocre. She's just had to accept that she's not good at everything and had to find out what she was good at and accepted. Yes, that was cool and again realistic. Yes, yes, so I'm addicted to accepting my limitation. Just kidding. Very refreshing to see you on screen. Yeah, but the but then you know there's some issues and that it's you know, oh boy, is it a white movie. There's they they don't have any friends who are people of color, and uh, I don't think that I remember seeing not to open a can of worms, But like, is that that's kind of like a moral fear. But is it an artistic failure because these kind of people probably don't don't have friends of color, right, Yeah, I just feel like there's always they're always in a position just to do a little boring too. It's just boring. Yeah, I mean I would like a like a Brooklyn Trust Front bro have like a black friend. I don't know, maybe not, but why are we making movies about people like that? Then? I just any all Wight New York movie. I'm just like you were in a creative position to make this not the game, right, Yes, So I feel like the most diverse scene we saw was when she's teaching the ballet class, her ballet class. The little girls were It was a very diverse group of little Ballerina's cute. So yeah, I think I'll think I'll settle on a three point five and I'll give one to Greta, I'll give one to the actor who plays Sophie. I'll give one to our super producer Sophie. And I'll give my fine half nipple to the hairless cat that maybe maybe the boyfriend and up getting maybe No, we don't know. I'm going between three and a half feels right, but I don't I'm tempted to go for four. I don't know. I guess I'll for the for whoever's making the Wikipedia page, you've put down three and a half or four, up to you, I'll give you the editorial power because I do agree that I think, you know, whenever there is a director, writer, you're you're in a position to be inclusive, and when you make the choice not to, that choice should be justified in a way that's more than like, well it wouldn't you know, like it just kind of like a Wincy kind of response to it doesn't really it just seems like it's kind of like, I don't know, it doesn't work for me. But but but I I got this movie wrong the first time, and I have grown to really appreciate it. There were parts of this movie that were genuinely ficult for me to watch because I saw elements of myself or my own friends or just I mean, I think that it is a pretty accurate depiction of a like I and and I hesitate to put the word millennial into this podcast at all, but we're out into the world further. But like, but someone who has been you know, grew up being told they could do anything, uh, then encounter the financial and personal obstacles that make it clear that that is kind of an empty promise, and navigating their way and finding their place. It is something that is really hashtag relatable um to a lot of women and also people. I think that this is like that men can also take a lot away from this movie and it's not specifically a women's movie, which is really cool. And I think Gredi Gerwig does a great job. It's like mumblecore ish in a way that isn't like distracting to me, And I don't know, I think it was like just the right amount of pathetic in a way that made me uncomfortable for hours afterwards, because everyone is a little bit pathetic and seeing it on screen is not a not a comfortable experience. But one. Um, so I'll go with a three and a half or a four, and you know, let's let history decide which I chose. I'll give I'll give one to Francis Hall, give one is so Fie. I'll give one to the lady that Greti Garwick works for, who's like, I don't even remember my workout. I don't even remember. It's my work after it happens, uh arge the woman in charge, um, and then I'll give half a nipple to the City of New York, or I have a nible orful nipple, depending on who. Okay, Christina, all right? Quadron nipples. One nipples for Nickey Summer, one nipple for Benjie's friends at s one nipple, one nipple for taking the whole crew to Paris to film a three minutes seem Half nipple for saying the name of a movie in the movie all the way at the very end, and you're like and obligatory half nipple tithing to my Lord and Savior Jeff Bezos. Oh I love it, Christina, thank you? Where can we try shopping for myself? Did you? We? We genuinely did clap when Frances hug and we're like, yes, it all makes sense. Come together. Oh, it's like when they say the Winter Soldier. You're like, like you you want to know where you can find me on the lear? Where are you follow me on Instagram? I put everything there links to Usually if I write something or I'm doing shows, I put it all there. I'm bad at updating my website, but there's my comedy videos and writing there, which is linked from Instagram anyway, so it's at us. The at symbol ex Tina underscore Catherine with a C because Christina Catherine doesn't fit in the user name box. See but that's good stuff. You should follow me, please follow. You can find us on All the All the Stuff Facebook and the Twitter on Instagram. At bachtel Cast you can find our patreon a Matreon Patreon dot com slash Bytelcast. Five dollars a month, we'll get you two extra episodes and access to the full back catalog. What a darn good special. You can also check out our merch store at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast Class. Oh my goodness, the Betel Class. Konda, back to class. Do you see where I was going? The econoclassy? Is it a lurch store? There is a lady merch go on? Am I? Am I doing it right? Yes? This is feminism. Yeah, thank you for listening. As always in Rushi next week, See you next week, Abbey