Pretty Woman with Andrea Werhun and Nicole Bazuin

00:00:00
Speaker 1: On The Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

00:00:16
Speaker 2: Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlyn, look at this necklace. I got you.

00:00:20
Speaker 3: Wow, And that's so nice.

00:00:24
Speaker 2: That part of the movie was giving me cal Hockley giving the Heart of the Ocean to Rose.

00:00:30
Speaker 3: It is a very low stakes Heart of the Ocean. Yeah, yeah, very low stakes.

00:00:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he's just borrowing it, right, he didn't even buy it for her.

00:00:38
Speaker 3: It's a loner. We're not worried about where it comes from. And I think that it gets returned, you know, without a problem. I feel like it's Deis X necklace, like, but you're just like, no, it just ends up being a nice necklace. And then it snaps closed and she goes, oh with all five thousand of her teeth, and we love and worship every single one of them.

00:00:59
Speaker 2: We sure do. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlyn Deronte.

00:01:04
Speaker 3: My name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens and using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for discussion. Caitlin H. What is the Bechdel Test?

00:01:18
Speaker 2: I'll tell you it is a mediometric created by dear friend of the show, Alison Bechdel, first appearing in her comic dis To Watch Out for It requires that for our standards, because there are many different versions of it. But for us, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation about something other than a man? And we particularly like it when it's narratively meaningful and not just throw a dialogue that could be cut from the movie and it would make no difference.

00:01:53
Speaker 3: So today we are covering We're sort of like I think this is sort of the theme of the tenure of the podcasting. So many movies that you would think we would have covered in the last ten years, but somehow we didn't. One of the most I think influential movies of its generation, one of the most successful movies in all of movies at the time of its release. We are at long last covering Pretty Women nineteen ninety directed by Gary Marshall and written by a writer named J. F.

00:02:24
Speaker 2: Lawton.

00:02:26
Speaker 3: I don't know, and we have two incredible guests to cover it with you. Just a little peak behind the curtain. We're recording this in the future, and I wanted to say, like, we could have talked about this movie for five consecutive hours. Yes, this is a rich, rich, rich text that there's been a lot of different reactions to over the years. There is definitely stuff we didn't have time to get to because of time constraints for this episode. If there is a perspective or I thought you had about this movie that we didn't cover in the space this episode, we'd love to hear it, either you know, reach us out to us on social media or especially if you're a member of our patreon aka Patreon. It's a fun place to have community discussion as well. Yeah. Yeah, with that, let's let's get into it. Let's get our guests in the mix.

00:03:18
Speaker 2: They are the filmmakers behind Modern Whore, director Nicole Design and writer performer Andrea Warehan. Welcome, Hey, thanks so much for being here.

00:03:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're so excited to be talking to you about this movie and to be talking to you about your movie congratulations.

00:03:39
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. We're so excited.

00:03:42
Speaker 3: Of course, the pleasure is all ours. Let our listeners know a little bit more about the documentary and sort of how it came together over the years.

00:03:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, Modern Whore is a hybrid documentary directed by myself and co created with Andrea Ware, who is the subject. Slash star because this is a hybrid documentary where she not only talks to you know, the audience about her experiences as a es scort and stripper working in Toronto, she also acts out those experiences in a series of highly stylized reenactments that really run the gamut from humorous to uncomfortable to sad or scary, but ultimately that we want to be joyful and offer something new in terms of sex work representation.

00:04:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really enjoyable and affecting to watch. We're curious because at the top of the documentary you say that in movies, books, media, in general, sex workers are usually depicted as either victims or villains. And because our show is all about representation and media, could you talk a little bit more about your impressions of the way sex workers are represented on screen. Traditionally, historically, et cetera.

00:05:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not pretty.

00:05:13
Speaker 2: It's not pretty woman, it's woman, and.

00:05:17
Speaker 5: The hooker usually ends up dead or is the punchline or is you know, pretty woman. Obviously we've got the hooker with a heart gold story, but we've also got a hooker in a dumpster.

00:05:28
Speaker 2: At the beginning.

00:05:28
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, right at the beginning to set us up, like that's what we expect when we see sex workers on screen. So yeah, I think that that's like the general sort of range of depictions that we see from the brains of voyeuristic civilians with their nefarious intentions. When it comes to depicting us on screen, we're we're like manic pixie dream whorees. You know, we show up to further the plot, but we don't actually ever get our own stories. We don't have nuanced it's very like one note and yeah, we usually end up dead.

00:06:04
Speaker 2: Totally, so many tropes, so many you know, the object of the punchline kind of thing.

00:06:11
Speaker 3: And you use the documentary to sort of expand I mean bringing in your friends who are sex workers and also just a diverse group of perspectives in sex work specifically. Yeah, how did that come together? And I don't know, I really appreciated that there was, especially after watching Pretty Woman, a diverse group of sex workers and artists with Nuance and you know, like just all this and everyone's so funny. Anyways, what was it like sort of bringing this group together for the movie and kind of revisiting this period of your life.

00:06:47
Speaker 5: Well, I'm happy to say that, you know, all of those sex workers that are featured in the film are people have collaborated with artistically in the past, and they're friends. So like, there are people that I know. They're not just you know, figures of representation to be dropped into the film to check a box, you know, their real life people that I know that are making art or you know, living their lives and doing advocacy and also come to this work with you know, vastly different backgrounds and experiences. But at the end of the day, what we all have in common is that we believe that each and every sex worker deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, you know, regardless of that experience. So it was great to get them all on board to be in the film, you know, pretty early on in the process, and those interviews in the film arise out of you know, continuous conversations with them about what they feel comfortable talking about on screen. You know, what we wanted to bring to life in the movie. What were the topics related to sex work that we never get to see on screen? And you know, all of those sex workers brought something of themselves and what they feel like they never get to see to the movie, which is you know, enormously incredible. And I think it was really important since this was an adaptation of my memoir. You knows, it's a very prescient critique that I am a cis white femme who has written a sex work memoir. Like you stop me if you've heard this one. It's a common thing, and we need to be able to, you know, open the door to other sex worker experiences and other sex worker voices to be able to tell their own stories. It's extremely important and understanding that, like, I'm not going to be able to do that, and I shouldn't do that. That's not my role. I'm not here to speak for anybody. It's important for sex workers always to be able to speak for themselves totally.

00:08:49
Speaker 2: And it's really impressive the wide range of topics that you cover with your collaborators, colleagues, fellow sex workers. You're talking about the criminalization of sex work. You're talking about the importance of community. You're talking about not being given opportunities to meet your fellow co workers and experience solidarity in some cases. You talk about shame, you talk about romantic relationships, you talk about trauma, porn like it's there's so many and that's just the tip of the Iceberg parentheses Titanic reference.

00:09:30
Speaker 3: But I love it.

00:09:32
Speaker 5: You know what Rose was posing nude? I guess not for money, but like like one of the.

00:09:37
Speaker 2: French girls that she pays him exactly.

00:09:40
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, you're in going to bring her into the folds, right.

00:09:46
Speaker 2: And So, because you're such a huge advocate of the importance of sex workers telling their own stories, what are some ways you would like to see representations of sex work and sex workers in fiction, in movies and television.

00:10:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, And are there any specific productions movies, books, whatever it is that you're like more people should be talking about this.

00:10:13
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely. I think like if we want to see representations of sex work change, we need to give decision making positions on TV and film sets. Two sex workers, you know, sex workers need to be writing their own depictions. We need to be directing these films, We need to be producing these films, editing these films. Opportunities need to be given to sex workers on any production that is about sex work. If you don't have a sex worker with decision making power on that side, I just don't think that representation is ever going to be accurate. So we need to pay sex workers to do that labor. And you know, I hope one of the sort of impacts of the film is that people understand just like how many sex workers are also artists.

00:11:01
Speaker 2: Totally, you know, we who can.

00:11:04
Speaker 5: Afford to be an artist in this economy, Like nobody's doing that? But yeah, no one, it's unless you're a NEPO baby like you come from generational wealth, like you have those connections. Good for you. Most of us have to work for a living, and sex work just presents this opportunity to make a solid amount of money in a short period of time with a flexible schedule that really works well as artists, and so there is no shortage of artistic talent. And I'm thinking about, like, you know, the labor of producing it's really not that different from being an independent sex worker, and you have to manage all of these different things at the same time you're doing all these jobs. Of course, you could be a producer on a film and one sex work shouldn't ever be a barrier to accessing these these jobs on a film set. And so I just, you know, I think that that's going to be really important for turning the page on you know, thousands of years of representation of sex work that don't involve us doing that labor. But of course, like I'm thinking about fuck Toys, like fucked Toys, amazing, amazing film Shadow to Annapurna, like truly that film is so it feels like the future of sex work cinema. And it's such a thrill to be kind of like out with our movies at the same time. And we've we've talked a lot together. We haven't been able to meet in person yet shout out to the US border forever, but you know, one day we will meet and will be so so, so so happy. But yeah, that film is like a really good example of sex workers being in charge of that representation and demonstrating just how fucking talented we are and that we have an eye that no one else has when it comes to our labor.

00:13:02
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we've got to cover fuck toys.

00:13:05
Speaker 3: It's so good good.

00:13:09
Speaker 2: Is there anything else you too wanted to say about your film before we chat about Pretty Woman?

00:13:15
Speaker 4: I will say one more thing. So our film starts with Andrea making the assertion that, you know, the typical depictions of sex work are typically victim or villain archetypes. And you know, she also offers something along the way that could be a new archetype called the fem vital as opposed to a fatal. So certainly, I think this is a film that just feels like a natural fit to have your lens on. And I'm just really excited to have had you highlight our project and think about, you know, furthering the representations of sex work and having that kind of thoughtfulness about.

00:14:00
Speaker 6: The way that these archetypes exist on screen.

00:14:03
Speaker 2: Totally. One of the closing sentiments of the documentary is wanting to move away from the representation of a sex worker needing a white knight to come and rescue them. And I don't know if that was a direct reference to pretty Women or if it was just a more of a reference to a general trope, But but it, really, I think.

00:14:25
Speaker 4: It can be both.

00:14:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're so we're so excited about the viv and like, truly in the first ten minutes, I was like, Oh, our listeners are going to flip for modern horror, so congratulations. I'm just like cystoked.

00:14:39
Speaker 5: Thank you.

00:14:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss Pretty Women and we're back.

00:14:57
Speaker 3: Before we get into the recap, what are your respective histories with the movie Pretty Woman.

00:15:04
Speaker 4: I have been reflecting on when I would have encountered this film for the first time, and I think I would have been a tween. I think I might have been twelve when I watched this for the first time, and you know, I was a kid who when I heard the Cinderella Story as a bedtime story, my immediate response was again, you know, I loved that kind of story of you know, the Cinderella story, and so I think I was certainly a prime target for that kind of film being charming, you know. And I also really loved and have always loved My Fair Lady with Audrey Hepburn from nineteen sixty four, So you know, both stories have that Cinderella element, and also both stories have that Pygmalion origin that's in there, definitely exactly. So, you know, I think that they kind of played into this core fairy tale, satisfying makeover comedy story that that I really, you know, felt into, felt engaged y. You know, you love the Roy Orbison song right off the bat. It's just so wonderful, and so to revisit that film again over the years, it becomes one of those films that's really interesting to revisit at different points in your life and see your perceptions of it evolve.

00:16:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Andrew, how about you.

00:16:39
Speaker 5: I don't have anything nearly as eloquent to say about my association with Pretty Woman. I don't recall ever having like a super strong reaction to it. But I also tend to have an aversion to anything I feel like I'm supposed to watch or I'm supposed to like, So there's like a bit of an avoidance there. But obviously, as a sex worker, it's the penultimate sex worker film, you know, so I feel like I felt kind of like neutral or maybe avoidant about it. Fair and rewatching it this weekend to talk about it was such a revealing experience for myself.

00:17:21
Speaker 2: Well, I can't wait to learn more about that.

00:17:23
Speaker 3: Caitlyn, what about you? What's your I actually I don't know your history with this movie.

00:17:28
Speaker 2: I saw it for the first time during the Great Caitlin Movie binge of two thousand and five, and then I think maybe once or twice since then, so I've seen it two or three times over the years, but it had been probably ten or fifteen years since I most recently saw it, so it was interesting to go back. You know, there are those iconic moments that everyone remembers from it, like the bubble bath scene and the like snapping the necklace case shut, all those like iconic moments, the red Dress.

00:18:00
Speaker 4: Big Mistake, Huge, the big Mistake Huge.

00:18:02
Speaker 3: I sort of forgot that that was where that came from, like I've said that, having no idea where it came from, so.

00:18:08
Speaker 2: I remember those. But yeah, it was definitely interesting rewatching, especially in the context of having just watched the documentary Modern Horre. So there's so much to talk about. Can't wait to do it, Jamie, what's your history with it?

00:18:25
Speaker 3: Andrea is similar to you, like I avoided this like this and like The Godfather, like all of these movies that I was just like, I don't need to watch this, and actually it's cool that I haven't, and I stand by that, but I did. I saw this movie for the first time last year because this is the movie that we've gotten requests for for years, because I mean it's I guess something I didn't realize when I finally did watch it was how like I knew it was obviously a very influential movie, but that this was like the highest grossing R rated movie until like last year. It made half a billion dollars in nineteen ninety, which is terrifying.

00:19:07
Speaker 2: It was the fifth highest grossing movie of the time, just behind Star Wars et an Indiana Jones movie, and Jaws. That's how much of a worldwide phenomenon this movie was.

00:19:20
Speaker 3: I knew it was a classic, but I like and people talk about it a lot, but yeah, I was not aware of like just how big a movie it was in its time. I love Julia Roberts, but as this movie goes on, it just gets more and more frustrating, and by the end, I'm like tearing the skin off my face and I have no attachment to it. So by the last scene, I'm like screaming at the television like it's a sports game. But yeah, I don't know. I'm excited to talk about it.

00:19:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's dive into the recap and we'll go from there. Okay, quick content warning at the very top, because there's a brief moment toward the end of the movie that involves physical and sexual assault. We meet Edward Lewis played by Richard gear. He is a businessman who's in LA for a work trip. He leaves at the party he's at, takes his lawyer, Phil Stuckey is his name, his car, and he's played by Jason Alexander.

00:20:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, the first shot of the movie is Jason Alexander doing close up magic, which okay, I was not on my bingo card for things that would happen in this movie.

00:20:30
Speaker 2: It's not him, it's not but he pops out right behind the magician almost like a magic trick, and so it looks like him, but it's a different guy.

00:20:39
Speaker 3: That's disappointing to hear. I know, I know.

00:20:43
Speaker 2: But anyway, Edward Lewis, he drives off in this car and he's trying to get to Beverly Hills, but he's getting lost along the way. Meanwhile, we meet Vivian Ward played by Julia Roberts. She is a sex worker who is getting ready for work that night. She's broke. She has to climb out of the window to avoid her landlord. She heads into a club and confronts her roommate Kit played by Laura san Giacomo, who used their rent money to buy drugs and so they need to make some money asap, and they start working their section of Hollywood Boulevard, and that's when Richard pulls up and asks Vivian for directions for Beverly Hills. She gets in his car to personally escort him to his fancy hotel, and when they arrive, he invites her to join him. They go up to Edward's penthouse room. She's getting looks from the stuffy rich people inside. She's mocking them, and then when they're settled in the room, she's expecting that Edward wants to have sex right away, but he doesn't want to rush things, and he pays her to stay the whole night, and eventually, after like chatting, lounging watching some I Love Lucy, she starts to undress. He asks what she's willing to do. She says everything except kiss on the mouth, so instead she kisses him on the penis. The next morning, he reveals what he does for a living, which is to.

00:22:24
Speaker 3: The worst answer ever.

00:22:26
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

00:22:28
Speaker 3: Every like romantic lead in nineties rom coms have like a truly horrific job, like it, and it gives worse.

00:22:37
Speaker 2: His job gets worse because he ends up building worship.

00:22:41
Speaker 3: He's like mister military industrial complex. And then at the end he's like, all right, you can continue to build naval destroyers. You're like, now, are we rooting for this? I don't week.

00:22:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it was horrible, but currently his job is to buy and sell multimillion dollar companies. And so the contrast between these two people's lives is becoming more and more clear because he's rich, highly educated, very prim and proper.

00:23:11
Speaker 3: Ding evil shit. It seems like without naps, like no naps, no bathroom breaks, he's not eating.

00:23:19
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, But as he points out in the film, they both do the same thing for a living. They both screw people for money.

00:23:29
Speaker 3: Yes, yep, that's like nice try movie.

00:23:34
Speaker 2: One is a noble profession and the other one is whatever the fuck he's doing.

00:23:39
Speaker 5: I don't know if my ghost of her is calling it a noble profession.

00:23:44
Speaker 2: But anyway, the contrast, so he's rich and all this stuff, she's broke, scrappy, a high school dropout. Despite their differences, Edward tells her he's going to be in town for a week and that he would like her to spend that week with him, and they negotiate a rate of paying her three thousand dollars for the week. He also gives her money to buy quote unquote more appropriate clothing, so she goes to shops on Rodeo Drive, but she's getting more dirty looks from the shopkeepers. Some even tell her to leave, so she gives up and returns to Edward's hotel, where she's hassled by the hotel manager, Bernard Barney.

00:24:29
Speaker 3: I feel like I will always be Joe from The Princess Diaries to me, and he's basically playing the same character in this movie.

00:24:38
Speaker 2: Okay, here was a thought I had, and I'm sure it's not an original thought, but Princess Diaries is pretty woman for a PG audience junior to the point it has some of the same cast and the same director. Garie Marshall.

00:24:52
Speaker 3: Well, that's yeah, that's Hector Alizondo. I think is in every single Gary Marshall movie. I'm pretty sure that they're like they are, they're tight, best buds. And then Larry Miller is in both movies Akatesca. Oh my god, I always forget because I'm always like, who is that. It's always Polo Putnesca.

00:25:13
Speaker 2: It's always yeah every time, because he plays one of the shopkeepers in Pretty Woman.

00:25:18
Speaker 6: Yeah, the obscene amount of money.

00:25:21
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:25:25
Speaker 2: And so this hotel manager pulls Vivian into his office to kind of reprimand her or maybe kick her out, but they reach an understanding and then he arranges for her to go to a boutique where she'll be taken care of. And so she goes and gets a cocktail dress for dinner that night, followed by her returning to Barney for help with like dinner etiquette.

00:25:51
Speaker 3: Which is like literally what he does in the Princess.

00:25:53
Speaker 4: Diaries as well, just that it's a little type cast.

00:25:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's like, this is the guy who teaches you what fork t is.

00:26:02
Speaker 2: For some reason, I also thought it was very Kathy Bates in Titanic Coded, where she's like, start on the out, fork lesson, start on the outside and work your way in Wow. Four Lessons of cinema history. Yeah, we're's the supercut of that. Okay. So that evening, Vivian and Edward go to dinner with a business associate of Edwards, this guy named mister Morse and his grandson. But the dinner doesn't go well for anyone because Vivian is struggling with the utensils and the food. Edward is insulting the guys about the purchase of their company. So they are pissed off and they storm away.

00:26:44
Speaker 5: Okay, but they are charmed by her. Then nobody's mad Vivian right, to be fair, It's not like, oh she said, dumb Moore, She's just fucking everything up. But it's more she's just like goofy Lucille bawling.

00:26:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. I mean, to know Vivian is to love her, and I mean it's also it's like Julia Roberts.

00:27:03
Speaker 2: She's so perfect, she's so charming. Yeah.

00:27:06
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:27:06
Speaker 2: And so after dinner, Edward and Vivian deprief and this is the scene where they realize maybe they have more in common that they than they thought. They both screw people for money, they also have to detach emotionally to be able to do their jobs and then a little later they're canoodling and he keeps trying to kiss her on the lips, but she's like, uh uh ah, that's too intimate. So now they're just like caressing each other on top of a grand piano. That scene, to me is very hot. It is yeah, yes, beautiful the piano.

00:27:41
Speaker 3: Fuck. I mean it literally felt like I was like, oh, I would watch the porn version of this. I'm sure it exists. Yeah, I would like to see it.

00:27:50
Speaker 2: There are like men in the room that I think like hotel staff that he sends away.

00:27:55
Speaker 5: I'm just like, okay, that's easy. Your power for good.

00:27:58
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was like that for some reason, that detail in that scene is so hot, Like I don't know, he's like, please leave, I have to fuck on this piano, and they're like totally awaken it.

00:28:08
Speaker 2: They're like exactly exactly. Yeah, okay, so the next Okay.

00:28:12
Speaker 5: I did notice in the credits that that was an original Richard Gear song that he was playing. No kidding, he got the music credit for that.

00:28:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, Richard Gear. I mean it. It's like, I I'm not gonna call him underrated. He's pretty rated, but he's great and he has excellent politics. Which is like you rarely get both.

00:28:31
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:28:31
Speaker 5: Also, maybe the only actor who has played a sex worker in American Jigglow and a client in Pretty Woman. Shout out to him, he's the real MVB.

00:28:43
Speaker 3: I still haven't seen American Jiggle you do? Do you like it? Okay?

00:28:47
Speaker 4: Cool?

00:28:47
Speaker 5: Fucking love it.

00:28:49
Speaker 6: It's really good, Telly.

00:28:51
Speaker 2: I need to see it too. Yeah. Okay. So the next day, Vivian goes shopping for more clothes. This is when we get the famous shopping montage while Roy Orbison's song Pretty Woman is playing, and she buys a bunch of again quote unquote appropriate elegant upperclass clothing. Meanwhile, something something business Edward is rethinking buying Morse's company because of something that Vivian said, maybe.

00:29:24
Speaker 3: Which never really nothing really ever comes of that, because I really love that she goes out of her way to make an excellent point, which is, you don't build anything, you don't make anything. You suck like you kind of you kind of suck. Your job is made up. And he repeats that but then sort of just well continue to do it or he's like, oh no, that's why, but that's why he lets the guys keep their military industrial.

00:29:49
Speaker 2: Right, that's why he pivots and he's like.

00:29:51
Speaker 3: You make weapons of mass destruction.

00:29:53
Speaker 2: You're like, I'm gonna help.

00:29:55
Speaker 3: You're like, no, this is the business to shut down Edward.

00:30:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's nuts. Yeah, He's like, oh, I guess I should build and make things.

00:30:05
Speaker 3: I know, like naval destroyer, wore crime device, started Natsy's shop, Like, come on, I.

00:30:12
Speaker 5: Love that he came to that after what literally taking his socks off and walking on grass.

00:30:19
Speaker 3: He goes out. I love the scene where I wrote down like Edward touches grass.

00:30:24
Speaker 5: It's like, you know what, I'm gonna let them do it build those ships.

00:30:32
Speaker 2: It's nuts.

00:30:33
Speaker 3: He has like so many love interests in this era of rom Com. He's just useless. He's useless but so rich. That's true, he is. He reminded me a lot. I was thinking a lot about Tom Hanks and You've got Mail, who to me is like the evil rom com protagonist because he's like shutting down Meg Ryan's bookstore.

00:30:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's mister Barnes and Noble or whatever.

00:30:59
Speaker 3: I don't know.

00:30:59
Speaker 2: An then we cut to a polo match that Edward brings Vivian to all the rich people. Are like, who is that woman that Edward is with? And then Phil stucky thinks that she's there to commit corporate espionage and Edward is like, don't worry, she's a sex worker, except he uses different language than that, So then Phil goes up to her, being like, Edward told me what you do for a living. Maybe we could get together sometime. He's being very sleazy about it, and Vivian is hurt and pissed at Edward about this, and she wants to call off the rest of their arrangement, but he apologizes and asks her to stay. She says, okay, just don't hurt me again. They ca noodle some more in bed. She tells him her backstory, including how she got into sex work, and he says, you're so bright and special. You could be so much more than that, and we'll talk about that. Then they're getting ready for an evening out. This is the necklace case snap thing. They bored a private jet to San Francisco, where he takes her to the opera. She's incredibly moved by it. The next day, this is the like Edward takes off work to touch grass with Vivian and oh my gosh, are they falling in love.

00:32:34
Speaker 3: He's doing that, like he's like reading her Shakespeare quotes in the park. You're just like, it's so, it's so corny. I was there. I don't know it would work for some For me, I was like if I was held hostage in someone's arms while they read Shakespeare quotes to me, I would not I just wouldn't love it. But to each their own.

00:32:54
Speaker 5: I feel like we have to remember that this man has never apparently taken a day off in his life, and sure she's the one who's like, come on, just take a day off, just try and not work in for once. And so maybe he's just cosplaying as somebody and like he thinks it's that that's what the weed to do, that's.

00:33:10
Speaker 3: What you're supposed to do.

00:33:12
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's reading Shakespeare quotes in the park.

00:33:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, I've heard of Shakespeare in the park.

00:33:18
Speaker 3: Is this it.

00:33:22
Speaker 5: Flu?

00:33:24
Speaker 2: Anyway, So they're like really vibing and they even kiss on the lips.

00:33:30
Speaker 5: Turning point, Yeah.

00:33:33
Speaker 2: Then it's their last day together, but he wants to see her again and basically like set up a whole new life for her with an apartment, a car, access to his money to go shopping, but that's not enough for her. She wants a dashing night on a white horse to come and rescue her, meaning she wants love, romance, intimacy, and he's like, mm, that's nice, but I'm not capable of giving you that right now.

00:34:04
Speaker 5: He can't afford it.

00:34:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, his emotional currency, his bank account is empty.

00:34:11
Speaker 3: It's like, I have to go negotiate a weapons of mass destruction deal. I don't have time for intimacy love.

00:34:19
Speaker 2: Yeah. We cut to Edward in his meeting with mister Morse and Stucky is furious that Edward is bailing on this very lucrative deal, so Stucky takes it out on Vivian, pays her a visit in the hotel room, tries to rape her. She's fighting him off. He strikes her, and then Edward comes in and intervenes, but he still isn't able to give Vivian the intimacy slash fairy tale ending that she wants, so she leaves and packs up her things and is about to move to San Francisco. Meanwhile, Edward is heading to the airport, but he decides to have the limo driver take him to Vivian's apartment. She looks out the window and there he is a night on his white stallion limbo thing, and he climbs up the fire escape to her apartment, even though he's afraid of heights, and he quote unquote rescues her and they kiss the end. So let's take another quick break and we will come back to discuss.

00:35:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's get into it, and we'll let the two of you sort of lead us here. What was sticking out to you on this viewing of of Pretty Women?

00:36:01
Speaker 5: I felt honestly struck by the Lucille Ball reference when she is sitting at Edward's feet on their first night and watching TV and Lucille Ball is just being a little ham. I think that there was like a connection being made between what she does as a sex worker and what Lucille Ball is doing as this like entertainer, as this comedian, because I think that's sort of what Julia Roberts is bringing to that role. Is this like goofy, goofy girl vibe. And I just I don't know. I felt like the genuine connection that Lucille Ball has with an audience being a woman comedian, and how few women truly have been able to break out and be as successful as she has been, like even still, you know, men still dominate the industry. I just thought that that was such an interesting thing for her to watch and be delighted by, and then also using that moment to initiate the action with her and Edward. I just like, there's something about being a sex worker when you're with a wealthy client and you're being paid a lot of money for your time and you do get to just be a goofball. That is a hidden world that most people will never penetrate. But I really related pretty hard in that moment, sure, and I thought it was quite insightful connection.

00:37:29
Speaker 4: Yeah, it definitely feels like, you know, the s cargo scene feels a bit Love Lucy. But interestingly, the director Gary Marshall was a writer on I Love Lucy. Oh it's a little bit of a easter egg for his prior work.

00:37:46
Speaker 5: Wow.

00:37:47
Speaker 3: That also stuck out to me on this viewing because it seems like they like they're interacting with different media throughout the movie, and it always feels very very intentional of they go see La Traviata is about a sex worker who falls in love with a rich guy. I think that she's literally watching My Fair Lady at one point, or like watching the ending of it and starting with Lucy. It just, I don't know, put you in a good headspace.

00:38:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think for all this movie's flaws, it is worth noting that this is a movie and one that again was a huge box office success. Everyone saw this movie. Yeah, And it's about a sex worker who is one of two main characters. So she's not a side character, she's not a plot device, she's not the punchline of a joke. She's actually a protagonist that is given a personality and a sense of humor, and she has shown as someone who is worthy of love. And these are things that we typically don't get when it comes to the representation of sex workers.

00:38:58
Speaker 3: So the bar is on the floor, to be fair, is.

00:39:01
Speaker 2: It absolutely is now a hell? But that's something you know.

00:39:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm curious what you both made of Vivian. Like looking back at Vivian as a character in twenty twenty six.

00:39:15
Speaker 5: I mean I honestly felt utterly charmed by her, to be honest, and I don't I guess like meeting her in twenty twenty six, or like reconnecting with her again, I was surprised by having moved. I felt and actually, in a strange way, how grateful I was for that white night ending. I actually found myself really happy that she got a happy ending.

00:39:41
Speaker 2: Fair totally.

00:39:42
Speaker 3: I was curious. I think it's just the happy ending is was hard for me because he's just like, he's such a piece of shit.

00:39:53
Speaker 2: But it was.

00:39:54
Speaker 3: Interesting learning about like the background of how much this movie changed before it like made it to the screen. This is literally a Disney movie, which I was also not aware of, but that it seems like, you know, while this movie plays into certain tropes, the original script played two completely different tropes around sex workers. It was originally a very dark movie called three thousand that was I mean worth saying is written by a straight guy who, from what I can tell, had no actual connections to sex work and was far more you know that. I think in the original version, Vivian was struggling with drug addiction, that she had been a sex worker for much longer than the Vivian of the eventual movie is, and that there is like a very sort of tragic They don't end up together. They don't the happy ending doesn't happen in the original version of the script.

00:41:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was written as as a cautionary tale, like yes.

00:41:03
Speaker 5: Yeah, and we have a million of those exactly. Also, I think the thing I like about that ending too, And this might be controversial to say, because I know that we're you know, the sex worker justice refrain is we don't need to be saved, you know, we don't need a man to save us, like we can easily take care of ourselves. The fact of the matter is, I know so many sex workers personally for whom being quote unquote retired by a client, by a whale, you know, which Edward is, is actually the goal. The goal is actually marrying an extremely rich guy and being set for life. Some people do sex work for that reason. And I think that that's accurate. And I am actually happy for her that she was able to like set those terms for herself beyond the like I've set you up with an apartment, baby, and you're going to be You're gonna be okay, And she's like, I want more than that. And he earned that as far as I'm concerned, as far as a client goes as a great client, go for her girl.

00:42:06
Speaker 4: And she does say at the end, in response to him rescuing her is that she rescues him right back, and they do underscore that notion. I think they do writing wise, try to set up these two characters, what are their dreams, what are the things that might be holding them back. They're really taking pains to set up what's holding Edward back in terms of his need to control everything, his fear of heights feeling symbolic in terms of not being willing to go outside of his comfort zone. So certainly this is a bit of a manic Pixie dream court that you mentioned earlier. Andrea who comes into his life and disrupts all of that and helps him have his toes, bear in the grass, etc.

00:42:56
Speaker 2: She's like, here, wear this wacky tie that he would never win otherwise.

00:43:00
Speaker 3: He's like it is like it's like a tie with a little pattern on it. He's like, I don't know, I don't know it's.

00:43:06
Speaker 4: True, But I did feel like his outfit in that scene with the tie was my favorite thing that he won.

00:43:12
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a.

00:43:12
Speaker 4: Really good passion with so she really did well picking that tie.

00:43:16
Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:43:17
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, like, in response to you know, you highlighting that the film initially had this other ending, I felt myself watching it this time, especially knowing we were doing the podcast and and trying to pay attention to how they were setting up the characters and the dynamic and the themes. I did feel like the third act felt a little bit more awkward than I remembered, and I perceived it this time wondering if it was partly because it's trying to fit a new ending on something that initially didn't have a happy ending, and so in that third act I felt the corniness a little bit more than before. Of like when he encounters the jewelry box again and you're thinking, oh, he's remembering that moment, you know, on the balcony, and he's just confronted with these little remembrances of her. It all felt a little more ham fisted than I had recalled. But yeah, they got there and they got to that iconic happy ending Andrea mentioned where, you know, there's a lot of moments in this film that I think are beautifully shot, but truly that shot of Julia Roberts with her hair, you know, flowing hair on the fire escape looking down at him beaming is just is just so gorgeous.

00:44:35
Speaker 3: I appreciated on this viewing too just that. I mean, there's always like room for more deep characterization of woman protagonists. But I did like that the movie does go out of its way to say, like, whether she ends up with Edward or not, she's gonna be okay, and that, you know, unlike the original ending of this movie, which sounded really like irritating, was like her and Kit going to Disneyland, staring into the middle distance thinking about how maybe dreams don't come true. You're like, well, that that sucks so much. No one needs to see that, right, it's exhausting. I liked that things don't seem like they're going to work out with Edward, but she has a plan b you know, like she and and it doesn't. At least, I didn't get the feeling that Edward coming back into her life would necessarily disrupt the plans that she had for herself. It didn't see at least. I mean, what I will say of Edward is he cares what she thinks, even if I think his job is quite evil. He does care which she thinks and values you know, her perspective on her life and his. So it's like if she wants to go back to school, you do get the feeling that like that's gonna be fine, and she'll go back to school and it'll just maybe look a little bit different.

00:45:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. For me, the big thing was the fact that she ends up with a client, a wealthy one at that. I don't have any problems with that. I have a problem with the way that he treats her along the way, because he's quite I would say, mean, he's always telling her, he's like always snapping at her to stop fidgeting and don't sit there, just sit over there instead, Like I don't know, it feels like he's just trying to a big component of her arc is that he's trying to like quote unquote civilize.

00:46:34
Speaker 3: Her, right, the Pygmalion of it all.

00:46:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Like he's introducing her to polite society, and he's teaching her respectability politics, and he's molding her into the person that he wants her to be. Where by the end, it feels like a lot of her maybe not entire identity, but her self expression with the way she dresses and and things like that kind of gets erased because he has molded her into like a polo match watching like s cargo opera lady. But yeah, I'm interested in your takes on that.

00:47:21
Speaker 4: I mean, they certainly establish him right from his opening scene where he's on the phone breaking up with Jessica.

00:47:29
Speaker 6: And someone who wants his girlfriend to be at his beck and call.

00:47:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and then there's a reference back to that where Vivian says, oh, you want me to be your beck and call girl. You know, he don't feel like psychologically they're trying to make that association that perhaps he's thinking, oh, you know, I can because I'm seeing a professional and there's money involved, and he does refer to her as his employee. He can and create a scenario where he can have this woman be at his back and call and that can be the nature of their relationship. And I do think, like you said, it produces quite a few uncomfortable sequences as a result of how he treats her, you know. And there's a I found that fight in the pink room of the Penthouse quite emotional to watch, you know, where it builds up to her just about leaving him at that point after he outs her to demon George Costanza, but to Stucky. He outs her to Stucky and you know, she really checks his behavior there and you know, I'm trying to interpret what the thought is behind it, and I would love Andrea's thought too, But yeah, it does feel like they're at least trying to suggest, you know, with her stating again, you know, say I control who, I control the price I control I say you know what and who and how much. She's really asserting her own power, and so it does become a power struggle between them, and he seems to have to have that journey where he realizes that also with this context, she's not really he doesn't have the power that he had wanted, and he has to learn about himself to kind of have their relationship grow in the end. I don't know if it fully achieves what they were going for there, but I think that was sort of an aspect.

00:49:39
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, my heart sank when he outed her at that.

00:49:47
Speaker 2: The polo match.

00:49:49
Speaker 5: The polo match, which was such an interesting scene because she was already being poor coded because the other women were identifying her as of you know, Edward's girls or like the flavor of the week. So she's already being stigmatized just by association with Edward. But you know, she's fighting back, you know, she's like, I'm just with him for the sex, you know, and like asserting herself in that type of a situation. But I think, yes, there's this like Pygmalion theme, but fundamentally it's about class drig which is such an important part of being a sex worker, is that you by donning a particular outfit, you can step into the halls of power and go unclocked essentially as a whore. Sure, And I think as a sex worker it's actually a very important skill to have. So when he critiques her for fidgeting, for instance, I don't see it as mean. I actually do see it as an instruction for survival in these environments that actually kind of keeps the boat stafe, okay, because she's not outing herself as someone who like has well, it's you know, she's not outing yourself as poor, right, Like she's not outing herself as a street walker. And the thing is like with sex work, it is truly a profession where you can climb the ranks of class to an extent, not like being out as a sex worker is a different story. But if you're and like, marriage can be a way of subverting class. So I guess I have a different relationship to the way that he instructs her Amelia style. I felt that the way that she dealt with being hurt in that situation felt very real to me, and it hit me pretty hard. I'm pa messing. Maybe that's part of it, but it felt very real. And when you know, Phil comes back and exerts him anger toward Edward against Vivian, Like to me, that was a very like real moment. That's that's part of why men rape women. They're just like angry about other things and they're gonna they see a woman and they want to take what they want and maybe it'll make him feel better, you know, is how he puts it. And the way that Edward reacts to that is important. He has to beat the shit out of his friend and he has. And the other thing too, I clocked in that moment was like, Stucky is also a whore in this situation. He is a paid friend. You think this man is your friend, You've been paying him to be your employee for the last ten years. He's not your friend. He has no loyalty to you. He's ready to rape a woman that you're being so in that way like whoror in the pejorative like metaphorical sense, the way that we use horror as someone who just does anything for money. Well that's what lawyers fucking do. Yeah, So I thought it was interesting that in that moment he he went all in to defend Vivian over this other man he'd been paying for a decade.

00:53:10
Speaker 2: Yeah. Fair, No, thank you for contextualizing that, because I counted like five or six times where he tells her to stop fidgeting, or oh, you look more beautiful when you're not fidgeting, something about her body language. But yeah, recon reframing it as he's helping her, I guess like mask almost or like he's helping her like here's the role that I'm hoping you're able to play during this week, And if you're fidgeting, that implies discomfort and like unfamiliarity with these fancy spaces that I'm taking you to and things like that, so like act natural to fit in.

00:53:59
Speaker 5: Also, why is she sitting on every surface palpable and not chairs?

00:54:03
Speaker 3: I do love that. I'm like I don't know about the like class background of the writer or even at some point like who wrote this movie, because the original version was so different, But I was like, maybe it's just someone who's like what a poor people do do? They just sit on stuff that aren't that aren't chairs, Like like.

00:54:20
Speaker 5: She should be trained, that's like house training.

00:54:23
Speaker 4: She just about sits into a plate of eggs.

00:54:31
Speaker 3: It is a lot. Yeah, I guess the piano too. She's just planting. She's planting wherever.

00:54:36
Speaker 2: She sits on the balcony and is like that does genuinely stress me out every time? Same?

00:54:44
Speaker 3: I want to because I know we're operating on kind of limited time. I wanted to talk about Vivian's friendship with Kit and just how sex work as a community is presented as well. Yeah, was there anything sticking out to you? I mean, like I adore Kit, me too, Yeah, I.

00:55:04
Speaker 5: Also adore Kit and I you know, yes, we've got some you know, negative stereotypical representation embodied by Kit, you know, as far as being the drug adult sex worker who's spending rent money on drugs and is pretty nonchalant about the fact that one of their friends has been founded in a dumpster.

00:55:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost acting like, well, well because there's this interesting or bizarre thing where Kit is using drugs and like no judgment, but she's casting judgment on other people who are also using drugs. She's calling a bunch of people crackheads and acting like, well, if they end up dead in a dumpster, they kind of had it coming because they're addicted to crack, but that's not us. So well, I wasn't sure what to make of that.

00:56:02
Speaker 5: You know, everybody's always trying to punch down doesn't matter. And so I noted this because so the sex worker who was found in the dumpster, her name was Skinny Marie, and Kit said that it's sad, it's sad that she died, but she was a flake, she was a crackhead, and there was a pimp that was trying to straighten her out. And you know, if only she'd gone with the pimp, maybe she wouldn't be in the dumpster. But that was stark. It was definitely stark. One thing that I was confused by was the fact that Vivian was so eager and willing to pass money off to Kit, like in that scene where she leaves money with the Philip concierge. I was like, Okay, first of all, how are you trusting this person who's just like left you totally in the lurch. When it comes to your housing and you're going to trust this person with money when you know they've already spent your money on drugs, that doesn't come up again. That's just a kind of like she takes the money, everything's fine type of a situation. But then at the same time, I do think there's something about Vivian's character, but also about a lot of sex workers where so much of our work, whether it's with our coworkers or our clients, relies on trust. You have to trust that the person you're about to have sex with for money is not going to murder you. You have to trust that your friends are loyal, even if they hurt you on occasion. So I think that there is something very human and real about that trust, even if it's misguided, And I think that's sort of Vivian's wholemo.

00:57:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was a little throwned by that as well, but it did feel I don't know, like the energy of it was just that they will have each other's back regardless, because I feel like there's a poorly written version of this where you know, like Vivian as like, fuck you guys, I'm I'm like doing the s cargo thing. Now, But I appreciate at the moments that the story kind of goes out of its way to show that like Vivian has no interest in like leaving her community behind just because she is like sort of falling in love with this really rich guy. And also that like she I think the exception of the like women who were huge assholes to her at that boutique, there is class solidarity to service workers throughout in a way that isn't always extended the other way, especially in the beginning of the story. But that there, I don't know, like there it's usually like little performance choices from Julia Roberts, but that it's clear that you know, Vivian is, you know, even though she is doing the Pygmalion thing to mask in these spaces, she's not like becoming a rich asshole doing this one eighty overnight. She she's like always is very thoroughly herself, and there is like community and class solidarity in everything she does.

00:59:08
Speaker 5: We respect it.

00:59:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like her character a lot as far as Edward goes. On the other hand, I can't. I still can't totally shake the feeling that Edward could have treated her better in certain cases. Also, it struck me that he was so appalled that she charges one hundred dollars an hour, as if to say, like, well, your labor isn't worth that amount of money. Meanwhile, he's dealing in like billion dollar deals and it's like, how dare you charge one hundred dollars?

00:59:46
Speaker 5: But that's typical?

00:59:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, so typical.

00:59:49
Speaker 5: It is so accurate.

00:59:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally and also not clear if.

00:59:54
Speaker 5: He's not if he's being like facetious or not. I like me, there was like a bit of like playful there.

01:00:00
Speaker 2: Okay, I could see that because he doesn't.

01:00:03
Speaker 5: Like try to lowball her or like negotiate lower He's just like, oh wow, okay, that's a lot. That's more than I thought.

01:00:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, And I do like that scene where they negotiate and like just to see representation on screen of a woman negotiating for herself and like knowing her work.

01:00:20
Speaker 3: And getting what she wants every single time.

01:00:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then and then the button on that scene is she says I would have done it for two thousand, and he's like I would have paid four yeah, and you're like, well, then pay her four thousand dollars.

01:00:33
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that's yeah, that's that's real. And the thing too is like I mean I thought it was confusing, how like, you know, she's charging one hundred for you know, the hour, and then he's like, how much will it be for the night and she says three hundred, Like obviously that's a little like question mark. But also if you've ever been in a position where you have to negotiate your rate, especially on the spot and really quickly, and you've never had to do something that would cost that much money, it takes a lot of bravery and courage to be able to name a number and stand.

01:01:08
Speaker 6: By it totally, you know.

01:01:09
Speaker 5: And then that's where I think that three thousand number comes into play, because even that's a low number for an entire week. Yeah, right, But if we put ourselves in her position, she's never asked for three thousand dollars in her life, and the way that she feels after she gets it, like it's just so palpable and so like overwhelmingly that that thrill of asking for something and getting it and knowing that you're going to be taken care of for this period of time, I mean that there's that's it's a good feeling.

01:01:43
Speaker 4: Plus the value of that new wardrobe on top of it.

01:01:47
Speaker 2: How much what was the obscene amount of money that he spent. I'm very curious to know something.

01:01:55
Speaker 3: I'd be curious what everybody thinks about. Is the way I guess like this is more of like a general realm com thing in general too that you see from the beginning of time through now is that this movie is like critical of class and not like unwilling to engage with class, but is still like it feels like very clear that this was like written in during the raake and administration. I guess where it does feel like the goal is to have as much as possible, and like there's I don't know, I feel like there there is class critique present in this movie, but it's still like the fantasy of it's a consumerist fantasy to some extent that, you know, the way that she's treated all of a sudden becomes okay because now there's a rich guy vouching for her, which resolves things for her on this day. But I don't know, like there's a little bit of movie language there where it's like the goal is to be respected by rich people, when it's like, well, you know, there's certainly power and a shift in your life that comes with that. But it I don't know, I mean in a way that is like unsurprising for a rom comm It's like a little overlay, simplistic in a way that felt like ooh, or like I felt like there was room in this story without changing the tone or the characters to like be more critical of class and not have the goal be the Pygmalion thing, to just like.

01:03:26
Speaker 2: Be assimilation and to rich person culture.

01:03:30
Speaker 3: And all the military destroyers there that's the worst of it.

01:03:35
Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree.

01:03:36
Speaker 4: I think it feels like Jamie you bumping up against the ship yees spelling, you know, again being an issue because I think in Edwards's character development, if you want to say that, it feels like, you know, he doesn't necessarily in the end do something career wise that actually.

01:03:58
Speaker 6: Speaks to who he is.

01:04:00
Speaker 4: He's actually upholding, you know, the Grandpa's dream. And I think they're trying to say that the significance of that is a sort of like symbolic resolution with edwards recently deceased dad, who he had this estrangement from, you know, so sort of trying to think of that being like some closure for him. But it doesn't really speak to who he is or what he might want to do, Like I would have loved if somehow they made him less materialistic in the end. But like you said, with the era in which it was produced, you know, this is a film that it's a rom com, and it's going to play into many fantasies, and certainly one of the ones that chooses to do is this kind of fantasy of money being available and flowing and upholding that consumeris fantasy.

01:04:57
Speaker 2: I kind of felt the same way about vis by the end, in the sense that we can imagine that she'll no longer be like, you know, working the streets now that she's partnered with with Edward now, But is there any hobby or passion or creative endeavor or anything like that that she does want to pursue now that she has the freedom to do so, But we don't really get a sense of of what she likes to do. Does she say something and I feel like there was a room for that when.

01:05:32
Speaker 5: She's in bed with Edward, Does she say something about what I thought she was a gearhead or something? Am I making that?

01:05:39
Speaker 4: Oh?

01:05:39
Speaker 3: Okay, we do learn that, yes, she which is a Julia Roberts thing. This is like the third Julia Roberts movie we've covered where she's like, I know how to fix cars and you're like, okay, that is like that was the nineties dog whistle for I'm not like other girls she does how to fix car.

01:05:55
Speaker 4: I would have loved it if she was like a grease monkey mechanic. I mean, yeah, it had their own garage or something.

01:06:04
Speaker 2: But if she becomes like Jay Leno with just like an enormous garage full of like fifty cars and she's like restoring classic cars or whatever, that would have been nice. If there was room for that. I think that we could have known more about that.

01:06:19
Speaker 5: But there's room for a sequel. There's a whole world where maybe Edward becomes anti capitalist and renounces.

01:06:27
Speaker 3: His way an extremely pretty woman.

01:06:33
Speaker 2: Honestly, the way that they just keep legacy sequeling every movie from like the nineties and early two thousands, I would not be surprised if we see Pretty Woman do at some point.

01:06:46
Speaker 5: Yeah.

01:06:46
Speaker 4: It also does make me ask the question, though, could it be made today?

01:06:50
Speaker 6: And could it be made today by Disney again?

01:06:52
Speaker 4: Like it had me reflecting again watching this. You know, Wow, this was a very specific point in time where this film was able to be made and cast America's Sweetheart in the title role. And I also think do so with this kind of these winks that were so fun, like having Richard Gear having been Paul Schrader's American Jiglow. You know, awareness of that in watching this film gives it a wink in that casting that I think is so fun and clever. And yeah, I don't know that I would see Disney doing this again, but obviously it was a point in time where it hit and it made all of that money you detailed about, you know, and yeah, it is really interesting to reflect on that.

01:07:42
Speaker 2: Does anyone have any final thoughts about the film?

01:07:47
Speaker 5: I mean, I just I don't know, if you know, every sex worker film, every film that touches on sex work needs to be realistic, especially if there's a happy ending. That's my controversial opinion. You know what, let her have her happy ending. I don't mind. I don't. I kind of love to see a sex worker happy in the end, and I love to see audiences cheer for a sex worker and be charmed by a sex worker. I think it's like actually really feel good, and maybe we need more of that totally.

01:08:18
Speaker 2: I mean, because you can criticize the trope of a sex worker needing to be quote unquote rescued from their job, because that certainly is a pervasive trope, and you could easily argue that the movie perpetuates that. But also to your point, sex workers, of course deserve a happy ending.

01:08:41
Speaker 3: And to be like centered in yeah the movie, as a full person, or at least as full a person as you could be in a movie in nineteen ninety.

01:08:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, And there is a trope that she's that character engages in, and that's the hooker with the heart of gold, and that like's she's a hook that doesn't do drugs and she's not like the other hookers. But at the same time, I don't know, I guess I kind of shrug because I still love to see it. I still love to see a loved sex worker. I think sex worker should be loved, and the way that she gets her come up.

01:09:19
Speaker 7: I'm just like, go Vivian, you go girl. Yeah, And I think you know she as much as you know. They're both our protagonists. I think that the audience is absolutely to me relating the most to the Vivian character. For sure, you know, there are a few things more satisfying cinematically than that big mistake, huge moment where I think we're all so invested in that triumph for her and it's so palpable, and I think especially that's why I think that that first movement of the film, as we see her come into her own and have those wins, is so wonderful and satisfying, and just the image of her, it feels like, sure, there's the class drag and there's the Pygmalion molding of her, but I'd like to think the positive spin could be like her coming into herself in some way, or her expression because you know, as she's walking down the street in the Pretty Woman.

01:10:17
Speaker 6: Song plays, it's just such a beautiful moment.

01:10:20
Speaker 5: It really is.

01:10:21
Speaker 2: I know, like we talk, We've talked on so many episodes about the trope of a rom com has to have a shopping montage or a makeover montage, but some of them are really fun and I like this one, so I'm not mad about it.

01:10:36
Speaker 4: We're allowed to have fun.

01:10:39
Speaker 5: And also I'm remembering that scene where Kit visits her at the hotel, where Vivian is thinking about breaking things off with Edward and Kit's like, are you not out of your mind? Like are you what the hell are you do not fumble this bag? Yeah, and that's real.

01:10:59
Speaker 2: I also love the every opportunity they get, Kit and Vivian mock the rich people who are clearly looking down on them. Yeah, it's great.

01:11:11
Speaker 3: It's like in just like the little exchange. I just like the chemistry between those two actors is so good too. You just like, I don't know, they're so good, but that little moment on that in that same scene with Kit where she's like whatever, poking at Vivian being like, wow, you clean up nice, easy to clean up when you've got a lot of money, and she's like yeah, And like they're they're even though, like I think there's like room to criticize it based on like the way that class is presented in terms of like what is the goal. I like that they're all like everyone knows what's happening, Like no one's being naive about it, especially in those moments. I like, honestly, one of my only things and a bigger thing for me. The first time I saw the movie is I wish Kit came back sooner. I just I think, just I love their friendship so much, and so much of the movie takes place strictly in the higher on the west side of la and not downtown. That like, Vivian's community disappears for so long, and Kit comes back, like really towards the very end. I wish she'd like come back a little bit sooner.

01:12:15
Speaker 2: But they should it down the shopping montage together, right.

01:12:18
Speaker 5: Right, true, that would have been iconic.

01:12:20
Speaker 2: And then she could have used some of that obscene amount of money to buy her friend some clothes.

01:12:25
Speaker 5: But then, you know, going to the end again, there's that moment of wealthy distribution where Vivian hands over some extra cash to Kit and calls it the Edward Scholarship Fund, right, you.

01:12:41
Speaker 3: Know, it's really cool, So I like tear up.

01:12:45
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that moment, and I think that's that's actually so accurate to what sex workers do as far as mutual aid is concerned. We take client money and we pump it back into the community.

01:12:57
Speaker 2: Love that.

01:12:57
Speaker 5: I love that great.

01:13:00
Speaker 3: Movie and that we hear like Kit, it's a it's a little exchange. But like she's she's bringing another sex worker who I forget if we like learn her name, But another sex worker is going to be taking Vivian's place in the apartment. Kid's like, oh yeah, I've got this much like you have to pay a little extra rent because I'm going to be like she's going to continue to be a sex worker, but she's also going to go to beauty school. You like sort of get an idea of like where her life is going now. And also, I mean it's a tiny thing, but nineteen ninety the bars in hell, the fact that you know, Vivian is leaving sex work, Kit is staying, and there isn't like a value judgment placed on that in the way that I think a lesser movie might have tried to like present this as an undesirable fate or whatever. But it's like I don't think that the movie, and certainly not Vivian judges Kit at. I mean really at any time, Like they're just so, they're just girls I love.

01:13:58
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, there's no like envy or anger or like you're leaving me behind. It's like Vivian's getting retired. Yeah, the retirement is the dream for all the rest of their life, for all of them.

01:14:13
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I want to be respectful of your time. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test. Yes, it does. Mostly between Vivian and Kit. They do talk about Edward and this guy named Carlos as well, but they also talk about their work. They talk about the specific terms that they've set for their work. The we say who we say when we say how much I love that? So yeah, it's I think passing quite handily as far as the Bechdel cast nipple scale, though, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Before we started recording, I was gonna give this a much lower rating than I'm going to now. This conversation really helped because again I was operating on like, he's kind of cruel to her and he becomes a war criminal at the end, and I mean, he ta be fair.

01:15:16
Speaker 3: He does, he does do that, he does.

01:15:18
Speaker 2: But some of those things have been listen, no client, no clients, that's true. Some of these things have been recontextualized for me. So thanks to the both of you for helping me on my journey, helping me on this character arc of mine. It's so important that this movie humanizes sex workers in a way that, again, most movies do not It gives Vivian humanity, It gives her a point of view, It gives her a character, which, again so many movies struggle tore.

01:15:54
Speaker 5: It gives her her character is sitting on everything.

01:15:57
Speaker 2: She's sitting on everything, and she's funny, like she's got a sense of humor. I love it when a woman is allowed to be funny and think things are funny, because that's also so rare to see, especially in movies of this era. I love that she gets a happy fairy tale ending, even if it does fall into some trope territory. I still am not a fan of Edward and his obsession with capitalism and the military industrial complex. Also, I feel like the Phil Stucky character is there and being as bad as he is to make Edward look not as bad. Also, it's very it's a very white movie. So I'm gonna go three nipples.

01:16:45
Speaker 5: Woo.

01:16:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna give it one point five at the at the top of the episode, but I've been swayed, so yeah, three nipples, and I'll give them two Vivian and her friends.

01:16:57
Speaker 3: Yay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna get two and a half. I don't like Edward. I don't like him. I'm happy for her. I think he's so boring, and you know, the naval destroyers. I'm just like, sure, could we have left at But that seems to be like what had to happen in every rom com. It's not particular to this, It's just a character I can never get on board with. But in any case, I love, love, love Vivian. I love how this movie. I mean, speaking to what you've been saying the whole episode, Andrea, that this is a fantasy that centers a sex worker very lovingly, And how many movies, especially movies with this level of like impact and cultural importance, can we say that for Yeah, there's plenty, plenty of criticisms to be said about it, but I think that it is like a net good movie. I enjoy watching it. I love the friendship with Vivian and Kit. So I'll go two and a half. I'll split the difference and to give one Vivian one a Kit and then one half too. We didn't have time to talk about her, but I always want to acknowledge when there's body doubles in a movie, because I feel like it's labored that is very often made invisible Shelley Michelle, great name. First of all, played Julia Roberts's body double in some of the intimate scenes in this movie and some of the close up body shots that Shelley Michelle as is the poster. The body on the poster Julia roberts head is photoshopped on. That is in fact Shelley Michelle. So shout out to Shelly Michelle. At her career peak, her legs were insured for a million dollars, which is so aspirational. I don't even know how that would work. Wow, But I love that for her. I enjoyed learning about her. My last half nipple goes to her shoded Shelley.

01:18:48
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's wild. I did not know that.

01:18:51
Speaker 6: That's right now.

01:18:52
Speaker 4: I had heard that that she had a body double on the poster, and I wondered at watching it because there's that opening scene where you know she's shutting off her alarm clock and her face has the pillow over it, So I wondered, is.

01:19:03
Speaker 6: That a body devil?

01:19:05
Speaker 3: It probably is. Yeah, Well, I think from what I was able to gather, most of the like more intimate scenes where you can't see Julia Robert's face is Shelley Michelle Coold makes sense.

01:19:17
Speaker 2: How about the two of you for the nipple.

01:19:19
Speaker 5: Scale, I guess I would give it four and half nipples. Obviously. You know, we could do without the sex worker dead in the dumpster. She could do without pimps. We could do I mean, if you're gonna have a pimp, let's have some justice. We could do without the warmongering love interest, you know. But all in all, you know, it's funny because with Edward it didn't even like his occupation didn't even register to me, Like I wasn't even really paying attention to Edward. But I think you're both very right to draw attention to the fact that he is, like he's got an evil job, and that's sort of glossed over as just like men in a boardroom. Yeah yeah, But at the same time, as a sex worker, we have to suspend our judgment for the menu peas all the time. So I think I literally am just conditioned to do that.

01:20:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

01:20:16
Speaker 5: That says more about me than anything else.

01:20:18
Speaker 3: Well, we're conditioned to hyper fixate on it because we've been We've covered a trillion rom cops.

01:20:24
Speaker 5: Yeah right, But I love I love Vivian so much. I love our little hooker lucial Ball, and I feel better off having rewatched that this weekend.

01:20:35
Speaker 2: Amazing, Nicole, how about you?

01:20:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, oh, I guess. So we are doing half nipples.

01:20:41
Speaker 3: That's a lot. Yeah, yeah, don't think about it too hard.

01:20:43
Speaker 2: We're grotesque over here.

01:20:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Yeah, I think I'm in the three point five nipples, and I agree. I love Vivian, and I love all the fun that's had along the way while still balancing some heavier moments in the film. And I think I do feel emotionally connected to Vivian along the way, and I felt that really strongly this time. And I just want to say a shout out to Gary Marshall's direction because I love all of the well choreographed, detailed comedy that he brought to the story. And yeah, creating that Vivian being like a lucial Ball type, a new type of lucille Ball heroine, I agree that that's just so wonderful. And yeah, I think as a result, it just brings me back to what Andrey and I want to do with our film, which is, you know, I think of Andrea as a kind of Lucilla ball type. Yeah, totally has that type of infectious you know, charisma and her little Jim Carrey rubber face throughout the film as well, and I think she's got people laughing and feeling and endearing and charmed and yeah, very nippleworthy. Absolutely, Thanks Nicole any time.

01:22:14
Speaker 2: And speaking of the doc, tell us where people can find it and watch it and follow you on any social media or check out any other work you'd like to plug. Yeah.

01:22:25
Speaker 4: So Modern Horror is going to be available to buy and rent on digital starting May first, so please do check it out please. And for myself, I'm on Instagram as Nico design Nice.

01:22:42
Speaker 5: And you can find me on Instagram at wiener Woman w e r Woman.

01:22:49
Speaker 3: Perfect handle, perfect handle, no notes, no notes. Thank you so much for enjoining us, and huge, huge congratulations.

01:22:58
Speaker 5: Thank you. This was so much fun.

01:23:00
Speaker 6: Now, this is awesome.

01:23:01
Speaker 3: Come back anytime, truly, yes, come back to talk about any movie you want. Let's do American Jigglo next. I want to kind of watch it.

01:23:11
Speaker 6: It's really good.

01:23:11
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, I can't wait. In the meantime, you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast and you can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon. It's the best way to support the show. You get two bonus episodes every single month, plus access to the back catalog, and it's only for five dollars a month. That's so much cheaper than one hundred dollars an hour.

01:23:39
Speaker 3: Wow, no comment, all right? You can also follow us on Instagram, is the easiest way to keep up on what's going on with the show. You know, expect some tour announcements later in the year for our ten year anniversary. And in the meantime, let's get in our limo and go into our happy ending. We The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.

01:24:11
Speaker 2: And Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

01:24:16
Speaker 3: And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of Them? That's Me?

01:24:20
Speaker 2: And our logo and merch and all of our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever heard of her?

01:24:27
Speaker 3: Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

01:24:39
Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash Bechdel Cast