What Makes a Good Match-Play Golf Course?

00:00:00
Speaker 1: The Writer Cup at Bethpage Black is approaching, so I thought it would be a good time to talk about the intersection between match play and golf course design. This is a topic I've been thinking about for a while. What makes a golf course well suited to match play as opposed to stroke play? How do you go about designing a matchplay specific golf course. Does it require something different from an architect than designing a course that will primarily host stroke play rounds. In this episode, I'll dig into those issues with two architects, first Andy Staples, who has actually designed a golf course intended for match play, Then Brian Schneider, who's a little skeptical of some of these ideas. Finally, I'll wrap up with some of my own thoughts on Bethpage Black and its suitability for the match play format. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is Designing Golf. Andy Staples, Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here.

00:01:07
Speaker 2: Hey, Garrett, great to be here, Thanks for having me.

00:01:11
Speaker 1: So we're talking today about whether there are certain things that make a golf course well suited or poorly suited to match play as opposed to stroke play. And you're a good person to tackle this topic with, because you've actually designed a golf course expressly intended for match play. It's part of the PGA National Resort in Florida, and it's called, appropriately enough, the match So before getting into kind of the philosophical ideas of what makes a good match play course and so on, why don't you just tell me a bit about the specifics of this project and how you thought through it. So, what was the concept of the match and where did it come from? How'd you come up with the idea.

00:02:00
Speaker 2: So PGA National, as many might know, hosts a PGA Tour event on the Champ course. They had four other courses. Now they have five courses, and so I was hired to look at what was called the Squire Course at that time. It's eighteen hole non returning nine a non returning eighteen, which man means you would go out and come back. There's no real connection to the clubhouse, a little bit disconnected from the clubhouse, which got to give it a little bit of charm. It was kind of out at the edge of the Everglades nineteen eighty one, George and Tom Fozio, and so it was tired and they were looking for the owners. At the time, Brookville Properties were looking for an option for how to diversify the user group. They had the Champ Course, which is known as being very difficult. They've got a Fasio and Arnold the Palmer, and so I started looking around what was happening in our industry with the resort courses and such. Seemed like a natural fit to try to play a course that targeted the maybe not so serious golfer, maybe the more fun golfer, the golfer that maybe was coming in to play the Champ course and maybe wanted to hang out the afternoon, play with their buddies, so forth, and so what people maybe don't know. Nineteen eighty three bj National Golf Club hosted the Ryder Cup, and so we kind of had this kind of natural tie in. It's like, wait a minute, the history of this place. It's actually kind of cool. And so when we started to think about what we could do to reimagine the Squire, which was kind of a tired, old sixty five hundred yard golf course, nothing totally special, surrounded by homes and things like that, typical for Florida golf course. We took the first an eighteenth hole non returning eighteen one to nine made a par three course, and then we were left with essentially sixteen holes for the rest of you know, whatever we wanted to do, and at that time, of course, we needed to make sure it was eighteen holes, and so the remaining sixteen holes became our focus on how do we actually create something here that people might want to make an effort to come play, certainly want to make it as casual and fun and engaging, knowing that people may have just gotten off to playing the Champ Course the day before or even that morning, and so we were able to take one course, the Square Course, and break it up into two courses, so a part three nine hole part three course that's now called the Staple, and then an eighteen hole maybe about a fifty eight hundred and fifty yard golf course short by many standards in Florida. We called the match. So that's it was kind of the tie, and we were really just trying to find something that was really reaching out across the golf sector and to prob bring people here that that don't necessarily need the you know, you go ahead and play the Champ Course if you want the hard, difficult stuff. But here, let's come we have some fun over in this course.

00:05:05
Speaker 1: First of all, the par three course, the staple that's named after you.

00:05:10
Speaker 2: But I kind of joke it is called the Staple. They wanted it to be the staple of the resort. I'm like, well, my name is Staples with an S at the end.

00:05:20
Speaker 1: So it's just a coincidence.

00:05:22
Speaker 2: No, I mean it was. It was a playoff words. The guys helped us with that, and they're geniuses, so they let that kind of fly. But yeah, nine hole staple of course.

00:05:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're just like Jack Nicholas naming every course the bear of some sort or another.

00:05:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hugh Jo that's right, exactly.

00:05:42
Speaker 1: All right. Well I had to give you a hard time about that. But both the courses obviously look really cool. I haven't been to them. I'm very curious about the match course, and you know that the idea of building a course specifically for match and how that was different from how you might have approached the stroke play courses that you've designed. So did you have a different approach Was there something essentially different from the ground up about how you designed this course?

00:06:17
Speaker 2: I would say yes, absolutely, And I think you know Obviously, we live in a country that's you know, fairly focused on stroke play, and every you know, every time the Ryder Cup or the President's Cup or something come back, there's some matchplay discussion, but for most parts it's it's stroke play. But I've always felt that the game of golf, the things that we try to try to promote in our game. You know, let's let's not have to make every golf course seven thousand yards. You know, does par really matter? And we talk a lot about is on a great golf course, some great golf courses that are seventy par seventy or less. And so, by nature of breaking the square course up into two courses, we were left with a finite piece of land, and I felt there needed to be something here creatively that gave us the ability to say, all right, if I was going to squeeze out at that point, we were trying to get over six thousand yards. But if we're going to squeeze out as many yards as possible, how do we get people here to come play golf? And why do we make it something you know, not your typical executive style golf course, as many people might call, something less than a certain yardage, and so yeah, it certainly gave me the ability. I think, when part doesn't matter, when length doesn't matter, you focus on half par holes, you focus on dramatic t shots, You focus on perhaps a very execute a shot to get onto a putting surface. The putting surface doesn't have to be fair. The word fair doesn't come into play very often on match play. It's they're bad breaks, right, they're it's not fair or not, it's a bad the fact that you had a bad break. So I really, from my standpoint, it gave me the opportunity to think of things without par, without length, and make an engaging golf course that really put a pressure on the golfers to hit golf shots. And by you know, at the end of the project, it was, you know, the Brookville properties were very engaged and involved, but many of them weren't really golfers. And so I got in the habit of saying, you know, my five will beat your six, And that's really the essence of a matchplay, of a match, and what I wanted to basically make out of the match at this at this at PGA National.

00:08:36
Speaker 1: Well, there are a couple of interesting things there. First of all, The origin story of this course kind of comes out of a constraint. You had sixteen holes of an old course and you really didn't have enough room to create a typical regulation golf course. So what do you do with it? Well, one option is a match play golf course, because it's it seems that golfers are more ready to accept an unconventional course if it is for match play and not for stroke play. So why do you think that is?

00:09:13
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a certain novelty to it, and there's a lot of a lot of folks down in Florida that might argue with that point. There there is a traditional customer base down there that you know. One of the other things that we don't have is we don't have traditional team markers. We have a beginning and we have an end. So we have kind of a minimum and a maximum, you know, the horse course concept, and then we we to this date, have still not rated and sloped the golf course. So when you play the match, you don't you can't record a score. So that that's begun a whole other discussion too. It's like, well why not, let's let's let's raid it. So and I've resisted rating the course because it's like, in my mind, this isn't a course that you want to go post a score. There's there there are holes out out there that are the length of a par four, But as you play them, and if you get into a certain angle or a certain part of the fairway, as you approach the greens, you know there's some shots there that expect execution and so an accuracy. And I think to me, when when you actually break down what match play is all about, it doesn't matter about the enjoyment of the course. You want to beat your opponent. And so at the end of the day, I wanted to put a diverse number of golf shots and place a premium on an approach into these greens that because I didn't have length. I try to defend it in different lines.

00:10:40
Speaker 1: We've done a couple of episodes recently on the concept of fairness, and you've used the F word a couple of times in describing what you did at this course the match and I think it's so interesting that once you're separated from stroke play, that fairness in golf course does doesn't seem to play as big of a role, or at least players don't seem to care as much about fairness because our idea of fairness in golf is so often connected to the idea of par and when you're playing a match, the idea of par or the idea of your handicap as related to the slope rating and whatever other numbers are relevant there. Those those notions kind of constrict are our acceptance of different kinds of golf courses. So once you say it's a match play course, then you're kind of freed up.

00:11:39
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, you can take unfair you.

00:11:42
Speaker 1: Can create unfair features. You don't have to constantly be you know, hiding from fairness.

00:11:50
Speaker 2: That's right, That is exactly right. And I will tell you that that was That was one of the more freeing parts of this. Now, granted, I think we took some risks on the on the side slopes of the greens and the slopes of the greens. Since we didn't have a lot of length. We knew a lot of people players would play that go off course that could hit the ball, you know, a pretty good length. But if you were an average or even below average and played all the way back and at the match, you still had a legitimate golf course. I mean, I've with the eight hundred yards for a lot of players, is still a pretty good golf course. There's a lot of par fives out there, if you want to start talking fives. But you know, when you think about match play, anybody who's who's been brought up in the game that played any type of competition, you know, at least that's the way I was brought in. You know, we still had match play where I grew up, and that was part of the State Golf Association. There's an emotion around winning a hole. There's an emotion about being two up. There's an emotion and a memory of having that final pot on the last hole for whatever number to win. And very rarely do you ever remember what you shot that day. You you end up, you end up making sure that you beat your your partner or your your opponent and so. And I have buddies here. I've told this story a number of times. I have buddies that are all different types of golfers, really good golfers to poor golfers. And we have a game. When we go play, there's there's four of us or even six of us, and we'll start out the first six holes and play a scramble, you know, two on two on two, and then the next hole, the next six holes will play an alternate shot, and many of the guys that I play with have never ever played an alternate shot before. They didn't know what the persons was. And then the final six holes are six holes of of of best ball or or stroke play, but still straight up match. And so to me, I was thinking about that as I built the match. It's like, Okay, if I had you know, six of us out here playing and we didn't really care what we what we shot, how am I going to enjoy the shot? I can just remember. I just think about the some of the greens, like I can see them saying, Staples, what'd you do? Here? I'm on the wrong side and here I am on the right side, And so I think to me, you know, you can call it whatever you will. I think that this was an excuse for me to get into a creative mode, but I don't know that I necessarily would have done on other courses. And I think that is what gives the match the charm that it has.

00:14:18
Speaker 1: Is there a specific feature at the match that you could tell us about that you might have hesitated to build at a conventional golf course that you would expect people to play stroke play at.

00:14:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think there's a there's I had a coffin bunker that there's one in the back side of the twelve hole. That my kind of Sahara template if you will, where you can actually, you know, drive it up to the green. If you miss the green, you're in this big entire hole like it's I tried to cut it as low as I possibly could. It's probably twelve feet low right next to the green, and then you go up on top of the green and there's a sliver of a bunker. And now, granted that those are becoming more popular, certainly Pete Dye made a living making making those types of bunk, but I don't know that I would ever had the sign off on something that you actually had to kind of climb in and out of, which was really cool. I use railroad ties, you know, so the idea of hitting something into a feature that you know, and I safely angled them and tried to do my best that didn't have to worry about any ricochets and things like that. But you know that you're in a feature and you just have no shot but going sideways. So I think those are things that that I think, you know, you play that golfull next time, you're like, I'm not hitting it over was here, or I'm gonna make sure I select a club to make make sure I avoid it. So of course that those are the things that I think we're you know, we're so cool about the course.

00:15:42
Speaker 1: If people make double bogies or triple bogey's just because of one feature, then that doesn't affect them the same way in a match as it would if they were tallying up their score. And so I think a big part of the freedom that a match play course concept offers is the ability to build features that exact are real punishment. And what you get from that is not just punishment, not just the whatever the sadistic pleasure that a golf architect feels and punishing players, whatever that might be, it's it makes the course exciting because avoiding the feature, playing around the feature, ending up in a hazard that is truly punitive creates excitement and tension. And that's that's something that can sometimes be missing from modern courses that we saw a lot at courses built in that Golden Age of the nineteen tens, twenties, and thirties. I think people would be shocked by how savage some of the hazards that the great architects of that period would build.

00:16:51
Speaker 2: Yes, of course, and so I'd be remiss by saying, I mean, the match play course isn't about the savage features, you know, But you go to the Garden City Golf Club and see what Walter Travis was doing to make that golf course more difficult for the USAM came through there. Like he was toughening it up. You see those features, like, there's no way you can get away with half those features that he built. But it is about the flow and the rhythm of the routing. So there was a certain expectation of creativity and pushing the limits on actual individual features. But you know, and we're about ready to you know, see match play again here in a week or so at that page. You know, I think what makes truly a good match play is the flow of the routing, the flow of how holes come together, and then certainly the closing of the routing. So many matches don't make it to the eighteenth hole, so you can really start to focus on fourteen fifteen, sixteen seventeen, and know that those are holes that maybe become a little more difficult. I love and I've only played Beth Page once, but it's a memorable course in my mind. It starts a little slow, maybe a little bit in front of you, you know, be wary of this match, like if you're if you're not up in the match after the first couple of holes, then by the time you make the turn, then it's a dogfight and it comes down to the finish, which is one of the reasons why I think Beth Page is so such a good match play course. You know, I think the routing and the way that holes are presented, which I feel like we were a bit constrained. We were only we're only available to whatever land was available to us at at the match. But I did think of things in terms of starting you know, it's right in front of you at the beginning, but then starting to kind of you know, synch it up or tighten it up. And and I think as you get to the match, there's a there's a somewhat reachable par five if you want to put a par on it, but it's it's a very short hole that that if you don't reach it close to the green and two shots are going to be disappointed. Uh. The the sixteenth hole is this little short, maybe two hundred ninety yard kind of know hole with the green sitting up and it all falls around. So you can go for the green and it falls everywhere around the green or you just lay up short. Seventeen is very narrow. Eighteen's a big, huge, long part three with a Britz kind of style of green in the middle of it. So to me, I think a match play course truly thinks in terms of how people are playing matches, how golfers are competing against each other, and know that, Hey, if you start fast, get up hot, get up quick, but then you got to hold on to the end. And I think you're going to see that a lot at that thing.

00:19:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not always the as you mentioned earlier, the eighteenth hole that is the conclusion of the round. So maybe there's an extra pressure on a match play course to have something really cool on fifteen or sixteen or seventeen. And that's why I think, by the way, Cyprus Point is such a sensational match play course. As we saw the Loker Cup if you end on really any of those holes in that closing stretch, matches are obviously most likely to get to at least fifteen. There are relatively few matches that end before that. But if you end on any of those holes fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, or even eighteen, I would argue it's a pretty satisfying ending in a way. All of them are unique holes and they offer something distinctive for a match that might have its concluding moment on it.

00:20:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually very surprised that so many matches made it to eighteen and there was such a focus on the accuracy off the tee and that big overhanging cypress from the left. I thought that again, you know, people say what they want about the the best seventeenth hole, seventeen hole course in the country, but that eighteenth holes gave a challenge that was very exacting off the tee, and you saw a lot of play underneath the tree around the tree for what what over you know, everyone to say about the value of trees. It was still it didn't matter about the design of that gopple. It was about getting the ball in and at least amount of strokes, and you know there was a lot of matches that were called there, so I think, to me, that's the essence. I'd say, Cypress point, the finish of Cypress is by far the quirky knit, the quirkiest and the example of what we try to do at the match. Now granted a little different location, but it's certainly a great example. I'm glad you brought it up.

00:21:30
Speaker 1: You know what is with Cyprus is that that eighteenth hole is kind of like Mackenzie saying to the players in the match, Okay, you couldn't figure it out on sixteen or seventeen, Let's give you something completely different. Let's see you, guys finish your match on this hole. And he creates this opportunity on that hole for very different scores to be made. Anybody who's played that hole knows that it can go sideways. If you don't hit a great t shot and you're stuck behind a tree, well look, you're you're stuck behind a tree. Your opponent finds the right part of the fairway to hit that approach up, you're not getting to the green, and so you have to scramble. You have to, you know, fight to the death to stay in that match. At the end. And that's that's something that's that's cool about any concluding match play hole. It offers an opportunity for real variance. I think that's the that's the big thing, right You can you can make a birdie or you can make a triple bogie, and both are relatively common outcomes. I think that that's something in a especially an eighteenth hole, like a deciding hole. You couldn't figure it out on the seventeen other holes. Here, here's one that's going to do it for you. That's there's something compelling about that.

00:22:53
Speaker 2: I totally agree, and I would say there was there was no mention at all about, you know, whether a tree was hanging too much or if there was some area that needed to be cleared out. Every player played had the same playing field and so they still had this hit the shot in the fairway to get some of it some angle around that tree. And it was very exacting and it was a very good premium placed on accuracy. And I think that is the essence of you know, the match play course has to reward accuracy, execution and nerves. And I think, to me, if you put it under that kind of pressure, I thought Ciphers did an incredible job of that.

00:23:37
Speaker 1: Do you wish that these features of an ideal match play course that we've been talking about were more common on regular courses?

00:23:47
Speaker 2: I would have to say I wish more golfers were more open to those types of features on more golf courses because I think we can all we can all build them quite easily. It's still we have we have owners and members to have to uh to have to get it past, and so yeah, the fair police in the renovation world certainly comes out. But yes, I absolutely do, and I think that this sense of adventure and sense of emotion and memorability and uniqueness is lost when you're kind of handcuffed from building those types of features.

00:24:20
Speaker 1: Andy, thanks for coming on the pod with me. That was great. We'll have you back back again soon, I hope.

00:24:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime, Garrett. I really appreciate the time. Appreciate it.

00:24:37
Speaker 1: This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you by good Walk Coffee. Good Walk Coffee is fueling the team here at Frida Egg Golf, and it's fueling me specifically. My go to blend is the Frida Egg Golf Blend, which is a medium light roast. My usual approach is either to use an arrow press or a French press. I just like a right up cup of coffee in the morning, no cream, no milk, and for that reason, I really need quality beans. I need the flavor to come from the coffee itself. And the fried Egg Golf Blend is so delicious. It includes naturally processed beans from the Americas and Ethiopia, and it has flavors of milk, chocolate, and notes of berries, a little touch of sweetness there. It's exactly what I'm looking for. Now. You can get the frieda Egg Golf Blend or any of our special blends delivered to you either every week, every two weeks, or monthly. I love not having to think about reordering my coffee beans myself, and I like just knowing the house is always stocked with what I need in the morning. Head to Goodwockcoffee dot com forward slash fried egg to subscribe. Use code fried Egg at checkout to save twenty percent on your entire order. If you order a subscription, you'll save thirty per off your first order than ten percent on all future shipments. Again, that's code Frida Egg. So check out good walk coffee. It's really good stuff. All right, let's get to my quick chat with Brian Schneider. All right, Brian Schneider, thanks for coming on the podcast.

00:26:24
Speaker 3: My pleasure. It's great to be back.

00:26:25
Speaker 1: Heurate. So we're talking about what if anything makes a good quote unquote match play golf course. And I've put those scare quotes in there just for you. Brian. I know you have some interesting thoughts on this subject, because back in twenty twenty two you tweeted the following you said, I'm calling bs on the design for match play marketing angle. Can anyone explain how this is different than simply creating fun, interesting golf. The best architects have done exactly that for over a century. So I wonder if you could explain a little further why you think designing a golf course for match play is kind of an empty concept or I don't know if you put it that way, or just you know, not something that actually changes the way somebody might design a course.

00:27:18
Speaker 3: I think there should be a statute of limitations for how long you can use a tweet. It gets me three years. It is probably about the.

00:27:25
Speaker 1: Boonder I thought you might enjoy that, you know, I.

00:27:30
Speaker 3: Don't and anyway discount the idea that some golf courses are better suited than others for match play. I think match plays a superior way to play the game in general and to enjoy the game versus s troll play. But some golf courses are certainly better suited than others, you know. To what I was calling bs on was the notion that certain architects might do different things if match play was the goal of the club versus the things that they would normally do trying to design the best golf course for some other purpose. And you never hear about people designing for stroke play. They just design the best golf courses they can on a given piece of land. And I guess I just assume that, you know, interesting compelling holes which are interesting in match play or stroke play, are the goal of any architect, and it's my you know, I guess I would frame the idea of a match play golf course as gimmicks is not the right word, a tool to help an uncomfortable client more easily grasp It's something that might be unconventional or severe because I think or quirky, you know, I think the best match play holes are those that to offer kind of risk reward. They're kind of stark lines to be drawn and severe penalties to be paid. You know, the idea that somebody might make an aid on this hole, that it only costs you one hole in the match, you know, kind of frees you up to create something more severe. And to me, it's a shame that architects don't feel always feel free to create those sorts of interesting questions and present those sorts of interesting, compelling hazards. And you know, the idea that, well, this course is for match play, so we can do something different here. It feels more like an anglic connse a client as opposed to actually intentionally doing something different than you would normally do.

00:29:27
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, I think everybody, including architects who have designed match play specific golf courses, would acknowledge that it is that kind of angle to get not only clients but also golfers comfortable with unconventional ideas. And it sounds like you wish that those unconventional ideas were more acceptable to people on quote unquote stroke play golf courses. If there is such a thing, there really isn't such a thing, and it's just a regular golf course where people are expected to play any format, usually struck play, I suppose. But the interesting point here is that I think what you're saying is that whatever features might be compelling for match play would be just as compelling in strug play. Do you is that what you think?

00:30:15
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yep, exactly.

00:30:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:30:18
Speaker 3: It feels like an angle to make people more comfortable with the idea of creating something that's a little more severe, a little more outside the box. And you know, the two kind of the two courses I know that were specifically designed for match play in received years, a Whoopie and Andy Staples course in Florida. The match there's both super talent and architects that are already doing really compelling stuff and aren't afraid to be, you know, to be building severe features, you know, And I think all of their work that I've seen makes for a great match play golf. I don't think there's anything unique about Fahoopee necessarily that makes it a better course for matchplay than Castle Stewart or a Boston golf club or all the other great places that Guild built. And the work and He's done that I've seen is also really creative and really compelling. And you know, it's my understanding that that golf course in FLOORA is a little shorter, and the average client may not go for something just marketed as a conventional fifty five hundred yard golf course. So the angle of well, this is something different. This is designed for matchplay. It's kind of a hook to get people land on a course that is unconventional in terms of length, in space and whole composition. And I'm sure it turned out really well.

00:31:29
Speaker 1: One of the courses that you have designed alongside Blake Conan Old Barnwell in South Carolina comes to mind for me when I think of a course that could be really fun in match play. Now it's really fun in stroke play as well, but there are some features at that course that would make for exciting moments in match play exactly because of their quirkiness or severity and their tendency to separate in a in a clear way good shots from slightly less good shots, and so you might have situations and matches where one player might be on one side of the feature and another player might be on the other side of the feature, and there's a big difference in their ability to score well, on the whole. Is that something that you think about when you're designing golf courses in general, Like, I want to create features that kind of you know, manufacture these situations where there might be very different outcomes for two different golf shots.

00:32:34
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, wellther it's off the tee. You know, if you're on the left edge at the fairway versus the right edge, you should have a very different shot coming into the green, And whether you miss the green to the right versus the left, your recovery should be entirely different than those things should change based on whole location from day to day. Yeah, you know, different consequences for dramatically different shots. I think is really important if missing right or left soose equally challenging to recover from. There's less thought that goes down to the execution of that shot. So yeah, I do think it's really important that and any given day there might be a favored hangle into a certain green, which it could depend entirely on your preference as a golfer where you want to be coming in from. It doesn't necessarily have to you know, maybe not everylfer today wants to be on the right side of the tenth fairway because that's the easiest place to access a pen. They might be people that want to be left versus right, but there should be very different consequences in different challenges faced by the position from whence you're approaching the green or try to get near the hall.

00:33:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, if there's any critique that I have of a lot of modern golf courses, it's that while there is often a sense of risk reward strategy and a sense that, yeah, things are a little bit better on this side of the fairway versus that side of the fairway, the distinction isn't quite big enough, and because of that, the golf hole might lose a little bit of tension. And so I guess it's just a matter of trying to persuade clients or you know, discuss things with clients and golfers to an extent in a way that allows them to see that it's okay for two very different outcomes to proceed from two shots that are actually technically in the fair way. So I wonder, you know, if you're not using the match play course angle to persuade clients and golfers of the virtue of those kinds of design features. Then how do you go about those discussions? How do you bring clients and golfers along to accept bold, quirky golf architecture.

00:34:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the example of a Varnma, we were very fortunate of client who appreciates and enjoys the type of golf the Blake and I enjoyed and essentially gave us free reign to do what we wanted. And he likes severe greens, which I think are an important component of kind of what we're talking about. There has to be something, something severe or something compelling consequential on the green land of a whole for every proceeding shot to matter. And he was also okay with blindness. You know, there are certain fairways at Old Barnwell and on some of the best courses where if you miss it on the right versus the left, you may not be able to see as well if vice firstall, and he was okay with all those things. And I'm fortunate to be in a place where I don't have to spend too much time trying to convince clients that what I want to do is it's going to be cool. So I think client selection has something to do with that, because it's it could be hard to change someone's mind, especially before something is built. You know that that can be really hard. You know, once it's built, it's easy for people to understand appreciate, but if you're talking about things theoretically or even at the dirt, that can be hard for for clients and golfers to understand. But I think you know, there are you know, there are hundreds of examples of great golf courses and great golf holes. You know, most of the very best courses in the world have a level of severity that the average golf course doesn't have a certain ways, and oftentimes around the greens Augusta Pine Valley, the Old Course, there's there's something really interesting and pretty unique on on going on around those greens that make them wonderful golf courses. So it's easy enough to point at those examples, I think, and you know, just try to clarify and that that every golfer has been fortunate enough to go to all these great places. But but I think exposing clients to great architecture is an important part of that and helping him understand why this course might be interesting, more interest in their home course or the places they have in their neighborhood. I think that's the important part of it.

00:37:01
Speaker 1: One thing about classic or Golden Age architecture is this severity that you're talking about that people seem to accept because these are accepted classics of golf course architecture. But it seems like owners and golfers these days are hesitant to embrace exactly that kind of severity that they enjoy at those other golf courses. And that's always been kind of funny to me. And I wonder if the rise of stroke play in post World War two America essentially has something to do with that smoothing out of the severity and boldness that seemed to be so much a part of architecture before World War Two, when stroke play was not as ingrained in golf culture.

00:37:54
Speaker 3: I think the American and it is pretty uniquely American obsession with stroke play. It's the not just the preferred style of playing golf, but almost the unanimous way to play golf is is detrimental to architecture. That's said, I mean it tastes have certainly changed in large Part two. You know, kind of a small group of architects that have taken a different approach to their work, and certainly platforms like yours and you know, popular figures in the podcasting and media world that have beaten a different drunk and helped golfers become more accustomed of things that are different and as opposed to it's people are taking golf trips to places that are different than what they can find at home. You know that that's why you travel to play golf, so you can see something you can't get in your backyard Coorsually, they're more and more of those places being built these days, and I think golfers are more and more in tune with accepting that and embracing and pursuing that. So tastes of change in architecture. I think it's easier now than it was twenty years ago to get away with something that's quirky, er a little more severe than what might been acceptable a few decades ago.

00:39:06
Speaker 1: And maybe we don't need to call it a match play golf course in order to introduce some of those features.

00:39:12
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of great golf courses have been built without that moniker and built clients and consumers seem to enjoy them and recognize that they're fun places to play.

00:39:22
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on the podcast, Brian. I'll have to have you back on for a longer discussion at some point, but I appreciate you joining me for this short segment here.

00:39:30
Speaker 3: It's my pleasure look forward to it here.

00:39:40
Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Club Champion. We're excited to have Club Champion as a partner again in twenty twenty five and if you're looking to improve your game this year, Club Champion has the most highly trained fitters in the world. They have an in house university that trains every Club chamin and fitter. They get continued education from manufacturers to stay up to date with all the newest innovations. These are career fitters who fit all day, every day. This is what they do and there are no distractions by accessories, lessons or anything else. What they do is fit you to golf clubs. Every Club Champion store has over sixty five brands, which equates to nearly seventy thousand different head and shaft combinations. There's equipment for every golfer and every swing. If you're tall, if you're short, if you have a faster swing, if you have a slower swing, if you're a junior, a senior, a beginner, or a pro. Club Champion can fit you to the right clubs because they have the freedom to use any brand and any head and shaft combination whatever they want. They're not pushing a particular agenda. You go to Club Champion when you just want to find the golf equipment that is right for you. You can get a free driver or iron fitting with a club purchase if you use the code Frida Egg at Club champion dot com slash Frida Egg. Again, that's the code Frida Egg Club champion dot com slash Friday. Check it out all right? Just me now. I wanted to wrap up with a few thoughts on match play golf courses and Bethpage Black in particular, So a couple of takeaways from my chats with Andy Staples and Brian Schneider. For Andy, from the architects perspective, the big benefit of designing a golf course for match play is just the freedom to pursue unconventional ideas. Right. It's not as big of a deal if the course isn't seven thousand yards long from the back teas, or if the par doesn't hit seventy or above. You can have a lot of half par holes. You can have severe or quirky greens, you can have some really punishing hazards because the course's relationship to par doesn't matter as much when the golfer isn't playing stroke play. The way that a lot of golfers judge fairness is if I play this hole really well, I can make a birdie. If I play it just well, then I can make a par. If I play it slightly less well, I reliably make a bogie right. It's all kind of based around this concept of what's the par and is it feasible? And then at the end of the round, if I've played more or less to my average standard, have I recorded a score that matches my handicap. All of these expectations come from the format of stroke play, and they tend to really limit what an architect can do with a course. If the player expects a consistent adherence to par and handicap, the architect has to smooth out some rough edges that the course could potentially have. Now, what Brian Schneider argues is that yes, those pressures on the architect do exist, but they don't change the fact that what makes a compelling match play course is basically the same as what makes a compelling stroke play course. We shouldn't accept the premise that a course where stroke play is the main format should be more conventional or less bold and quirky. You know, half par holes are fun in stroke play too. Variance is fun in stroke play too. That said, I don't really see Andy and Brian being on opposite sides here. I don't really think they're saying terribly different things. Andy in fact acknowledged in our interview that he wished golfers we're more accepting of quote unquote match play design on regular golf courses. Where Andy and Brian may be a little different is just in the messaging of their work to clients and players. Andy is saying, let me help you adjust your expectations by branding this course as a match play venue, and then I can do the kind of design that I would really want to do anywhere and everywhere. Brian is saying, I want clients and players to accept bold, quirky design on every type of golf course. I think these are both legitimate approaches, both trying to push golf architecture in a more creative and innovative direction and that's the important thing. Okay. So with those ideas in mind, let's talk about the Black Course at Bethpage State Park, the venue of course of next week's Ryder Cup. This is a great golf course, but it's not great I don't think for reasons that will be immediately important on TV or in any format of professional golf, whether match play or stroke play. For me, the biggest strengths of Bethpage Black are its land and its routing. It's just a gorgeous, varied piece of land and a pitch perfect, masterful out and back routing. If you want more detail on those subjects, a little plug for Friday Golf Club in the club for our membership. I wrote a course profile on Bethpage Black in collaboration with my colleague Matt Ruschius, where we go into some more depth on the details of the Black Course's land and routing. But as a match play venue and for that matter, a stroke play venue. Right, I've got Bryan Schneider's points in my head right now. I do think Bethpage Black has a couple of weaknesses. The biggest one is a relative lack of interest on and around the greens. So those bright line. Distinctions between a moderately good approach and a moderately poor approach, which Brian and I talked about a little, are not as present at the Black Course. The greens are fairly simple, guarded by rough and bunkers, and I think that volatility, that that is a big part of what can make a tournament course compelling to watch, isn't really there at Bethpage Black. Augusta National could be seen as being on the other side of the spectrum where you see incredible volatility on and around the greens. I'm not sure that you're gonna get that at Bethpage Black. Now we've also talked about how risk reward scenarios can really pop in match play. You can have one player take a conservative route, another player take an aggressive route, and in match play you can see them battle it out. You can see those strategies go head to head. The design of the hole in those cases is enhancing the story of the competition. It's raising the stakes. There are some holes at the Black Course that do this. You have the fourth hole, a par five along the lines of aw telling hasts signature great hazard template for these guys carrying the great hazard, which is a huge bunker cut into a ridge is not going to be a big issue on the second shot. That is kind of the point of the design. But you know, we've gotten where we've gotten with regulating golf equipment, and you know, the hole just doesn't play for professional golfers like it telling has to imagine that it would play. But what should be fun to watch is what happens when players go for the green on their second shots. There are a number of different outcomes possible, including a very scary one behind the green where there's a big runoff, so that should be pretty cool. We will see whether players go right at the green, right at the pin, or maybe bail out a little bit to the right to avoid that possible bad outcome behind the green. I think there will be some strategic variety there. Then the very next hole, the fifth, is an excellent risk reward par four with a big diagonal hazard off the tee. There should be a major advantage given to those who make the long carry on the right side. Then the sixth and ninth holes are solid dog leg par fours where you can choose between cutting the corner and laying back. So overall there is some strategic risk reward design out at Bethpage Black, but in general the fairways are pretty narrow. Some of them have been widened since the twenty nineteen PGA, namely the tenth and eleventh, but for the most part, I don't think the fairways are nearly enough to create different angles. Players will just be trying to hit the fairway any part of the fairway, not necessarily thinking about risk reward positioning. So overall, Bethpage Black great golf course, but does have some weaknesses that limit its appeal as a match play venue. I will say, though, as a Ryder Cup spectator venue, I think the Black Course is going to be fantastic, and this is partly because of how the routing works. Andy Staples made a kind of similar point to the one I want to make when he said that the course builds in difficulty and complexity as it goes on. Fifteen, sixteen and seventeen are very tough, two long par fours and a two hundred yard par three, and appropriate finale for a hard test of golf. What I'd add to that is that fifteen, sixteen and in seventeen all sit in a kind of natural arena below this big ridge fifteen plays up onto the ridge, sixteen plays off of it, and seventeen green is benched into it. And this area I think is going to be absolutely electric. In the Ryder Cup, most of the course travels through the woods, a lot of the holes somewhat isolated from each other, but then with fifteen it just bursts out into this open area. The holes aren't bordered by trees. There's a natural amphitheater effect, and that place is going to be crazy when the matches get there. Hopefully the fans will be respectful, we'll see, you know, there's a I think a lot of people are assuming that that might not be the case. But whatever the attitude of the fans might be, it's going to be very, very loud and intense in this part of the golf course. And it makes such a great contrast with where holes two through fourteen are. Those holes are in the woods one and then fifteen through eighteen are all out in this kind of open area. It's going to be spectacular, and I think that's an important feature of a venue for an event like a Ryder Cup. Not all courses have this dynamic on those closing holes, and so enjoy that part of it. Try to pick up on that. If you're watching from home, try to pick up on it on the telecast. If you're on site, you know, stay safe. It's going to be pretty crowded in this area, but that'll be a fun place to be, all right. I think that's it for match Play golf course design, and for bethpage Black. Enjoy the Ryder Cup. This episode of Designing Golf was produced I will Balsam, thank you. Will so a couple of bits of business here. First of all, we are running a whole design contest that actually involves Andy Staples, one of my guests for this very episode. Andy is building a par three course in Minnesota, and one of the holes on this course will be designed by a Frida Egg Golf Club member. To find out more details about this contest, go to the Frida Egg dot com and if you haven't yet become a member of Frida Egg Golf Club, go to the fridagg dot com slash membership and see everything we're offering there, including this design contest. All right. Second bit of business is that we're releasing a coffee table book. We've been putting this together for a while. We're really excited about it. I've been working on this for several months now. The coffee table book essentially compiles some of the course profiles that we've been writing for Frida Egg Golf Club. We've ref find those course profiles, We've introduced some new imagery illustrations by Matt Ruschius and Cameron Hurtis that that are absolutely fantastic. So if you're interested in a coffee table book, then go to the Friday Egg Pro shop and see what that's all about. But yeah, we're very excited to get this out into the world. And if you would like to actually bundle a Frida Egg Golf Club membership with the order of a coffee table book, we're offering a pretty good deal there. Okay, that's it, thank you for listening, and we'll be back again soon with another episode.