Caroline Sheridan Norton, Part 1

Stuff You Missed in History Class

Caroline Sheridan Norton’s left an abusive marriage in 1835. She then turned her skill as a writer into a lobby for legislation that would enable mothers in England to get custody of their young children.

Research:

  • Reynolds, K. D. "Norton [née Sheridan], Caroline Elizabeth Sarah [other married name Caroline Elizabeth Sarah Stirling Maxwell, Lady Stirling Maxwell] (1808–1877), author and law reform campaigner." Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.  25. Oxford University Press. Date of access 20 Mar. 2023, <https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-20339
  • Oliphant, Margaret, et al. “Women Novelists of Queen Victoria's Reign - A Book of Appreciations.” Ballantyne. 1897. Accessed online: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/36641/pg36641.txt
  • Norton, Caroline. “A LETTER TO THE QUEEN ON LORD CHANCELLOR CRANWORTH'S MARRIAGE AND DIVORCE BILL.” Longman, Brown, Green and Longmans. London. 1855. Accessed oline: https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/norton/alttq/alttq.html
  • “NORTON, CAROLINE (1808–1877).” English Heritage. https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/blue-plaques/caroline-norton/
  • Holmes, Ann Sumner. “The Double Standard in the English Divorce Laws, 1857–1923.” Law & Social Inquiry, vol. 20, no. 2, 1995, pp. 601–620., doi:10.1111/j.1747-4469.1995.tb01071.x.
  • Langley, Samuel. “The Laureateship.” Daily News. May 15, 1850. https://www.newspapers.com/image/390815598/?terms=%22Caroline%20Norton%22&match=1
  • Abramowicz, Sarah. “English Child Custody Law, 1660-1839: The Origins of Judicial Intervention in Paternal Custody.” Columbia Law Review, vol. 99, no. 5, 1999, pp. 1344–92. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/1123459
  • Diane, Atkinson. “The Criminal Conversation of Mrs. Norton.” London. Preface Publishing. 2012.
  • Norton, Caroline Sheridan. “A Plain Letter to the Lord Chancellor on the Infant Custody Bill.” London. 1839. Accessed online through Indiana University: https://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/vwwp/view?docId=VAB7126&chunk.id=d1e495&toc.id=&brand=vwwp;query=#docView
  • Tomalin, Claire. “Several Strangers: Writing from Three Decades.” Viking. 1999.
  • Forster, Margaret. “Significant Sisters: The Grassroots of Active Feminism, 1839-1939.” Vintage Books. 2004.
  • Britannica, The Editors of Encyclopaedia. "Caroline Norton". Encyclopedia Britannica, 11 Jun. 2022, https://www.britannica.com/biography/Caroline-Norton
  • Norton, C.N. “ENGLISH LAWS FOR WOMEN IN The Nineteenth Century.” London. 1854. Accessed online through University of Pennsylvania: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/norton/elfw/elfw.html

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2023-04-03 32 min Transcript

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00:00:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So this episode started out a very different episode than it ended up. Originally. I was like, Hey, Tracy, I'm going to cover the history of divorce. And I said that sounds really cool but also really big. Yeah. I don't know what I said, And I had a lot of coffee that day. I got real excited, but that obviously became immediately too hard to wrangle. The hard part for me was all of the different countries of the world have had different histories of divorce, and so yeah, to really do a comprehensive look at it was not tenable. Yeah, And the reason I said that sound really cool is like I had just read an article about the history of the idea of no fault divorce, and so I was curious to learn more. I'm not saying that I think divorce is like a fun party time. No, what I'm met by cool. No. I had told one of my friends that I was doing an episode on the history of divorce. It's like everything, okay, It's like yeah, and really it came up on our recent episode on augustin Daily Where because he had written a play called Divorce where he examined the idea of it, and I was like, Oh, that is an interesting topic. I wonder I wonder how that's been discussed through the years. So then when I realized too big, I was like, Oh, what I could do is talk about several different divorces in history, the way we might do as six impossible episodes or like one of our eponymous foods. And I started writing about this one and then I had only written about half of it, and I had a whole episode. So this is not only only about one divorce sort of sort of, it's not really about a divorce because it doesn't work out spoiler alert, but it it became a two parter. So we're talking today about Caroline Sheridan Norton. It is a case of a woman who advocated for rights for women in the UK and ultimately helped get laws passed to give more rights to women in marriages and in the dissolution of marriages. She married the absolutely wrong man and though she tried to make the best of her situation, over time that relationship became something really horrible that she had to escape. So heads up one. I feel like it's obvious, but we'll just say at the top this is obviously about like heterosexual old school marriages. It's not comprehensive of the marriage experience. It is this thing going on in the eighteen hundreds in Britain. Also, this includes discussion of domestic violence through Caroline's account, and some of it, even though it is in the more formal writing of the day, is quite and very upsetting. One of them results in a miscarriage. And we're including these accounts here not just to be click baity for lack of a better word, not to be sensational, but because it really shows how completely dangerous a woman's life could be, even with a man who was allegedly respectable, and how the law offered no help of any kind, like you were just supposed to accept it and that was your law in life. So if that is something that will cause you distress to hear about, skip right over this one. I will say in the second part of this, the second episode that we're doing with this two part episode, we don't really have those We have some horrible behavior, but not so much physical violence, just fyi so. Caroline Sheridan was born on March twenty second, eighteen o eight. Her father was Thomas Sheridan, a colonial officer and the son of Richard Brinsley Sheridan, the playwright who had penned the School for Scandal. Her mother was Caroline Henrietta Calendar Sheridan. Caroline was the middle sibling of three sisters. Her older sister was Helen, and her younger sister was Georgiana. When Caroline was eight, her father died while he was overseas, and this led to her living for a time with her uncle, Charles Sheridan, who, like her grandfather, was a writer, and this time living in her uncle's home really influenced Caroline to want to follow in the family tradition of writing. When she was eleven, she wrote this journal entry that she was resolved to write her own long poem. She was a smart, but sometimes rather precocious child, often described as quote high spirited. She was very quick witted, but that appears to have been in some case a little bit of a defense mechanism. Her family described her as actually being quite shy. Helen, Caroline, and Georgiana were nicknamed the Three graces, and they were very popular in London society in the eighteen twenties because of Thomas's early death. Though the family was not wealthy, it was considered imperative that all three of the Sheridan's sisters, Mary and Mary Well Helen, the oldest, became the wife of Captain Price Blackwood. That was a match that was more about practicality than passionate love, although the two of them are said to have developed a pretty happy and loving marriage. Georgiana was the youngest sister and also considered the prettiest, which meant that she had a lot of suitors, but according to the customs of the time, she could not accept any of them until the middle sister, Caroline, had gotten married. But although Caroline was very charming and very witty and people really liked her, there were not a lot of men lining up to court her let alone to propose. The only one was George Chapel Norton, and he was, as far as the Sheridan family knew, from a good family with a regular income. Though he was a barrister by training, he didn't really work in that field, or really much of any field. He did hold a government office, but he mostly lived off of income from his family money, and with some reluctance, Caroline eventually accepted his marriage proposal, largely to make way for her younger sister, Georgiana to make her match. But to be very clear, she was only sixteen at the time. Her mother, who really made this decision, did stipulate that the marriage would not take place for three years, so this is an interesting point of debate among historians. Caroline had barely remembered meeting George Norton. They'd only briefly crossed paths at a social event while she was in boarding school at Shalford, so some have interpreted missus Sheridan's acceptance of Norton's proposal on behalf of her daughter with this included waiting period as maybe kind of a strategy to assure Caroline's financial future, while also leaving a window of time in which maybe a more enthusiastic match could be made. Caroline herself was worried that she would never marry, so although she was not in the least bit enamored with Norton, she definitely saw it as a safety measure. She later wrote quote the only misfortune I ever particularly dreaded was living and dying a lonely old maid. An old maid is never anyone's first object. Therefore I object to that situation. Obviously a very outdated mode of thinking. But all of this is extra sad when you read other people's impressions of Caroline, because she was, by all accounts a charmer, and in all likelihood would have found another better option in time. She became friends in her life with Mary Shelley, who wrote of her quote, I never saw a woman I thought so fascinating. Had I been a man, I should certainly have fallen in love with her. I would have been spellbound. And had she taken the trouble, she might have wound me round her finger. There is something in the pretty way in which her witticisms glide, as it were, from her lips that is charming. Caroline was right to be hesitant. She and George were married in eighteen twenty seven, when she was nineteen, and it was a very bad match made on false pretenses. George did not have an income from his family. He did not have a town home or any home aside from his barrister's chambers. But he was also not interested in working so there really wasn't any money coming in. Additionally, the personalities of the bride and the groom were deeply discordant. While Caroline was known for her wit and outgoing personality, George really lacked a sense of humor and was not really inclined to conversation of much of any kind, not with his wife, not with anyone else. So at a time that should ideally be a honeymoon period for newlywed's, George turned violent with Caroline. She later wrote, quote, we had been married about two months when one evening or we had all withdrawn to our apartments. We were discussing some opinion mister Norton had expressed. I said that I thought I had never heard so silly or ridiculous a conclusion. This remark was punished by a sudden and violent kick. The blow reached my side. It caused great pain for several days, and being afraid to remain with him, I sat up the whole night in another apartment. A few months later, there was another incident after a party. Caroline wrote that she had no reason to be angry with her husband until they got home and he started to badmouth one of her relatives that was a young woman who was recently married and who had danced at the ball that night. Norton thought that married women should not dance, and he made a lot of quote coarse remarks about the woman. When Caroline defended the woman in question, quote, he suddenly sprang from the bed, seized me by the nape of the neck, and dashed me down on the floor. The sound of my fall woke my sister brother in law, who slept in the room below, and they ran up to the door. Mister Norton locked it and stood over me, declaring no one should enter. I could not speak. I only moaned. My brother in law burst the door open and carried me downstairs. I had swelling on my head for many days afterwards. So up to eighteen thirty, George had been a Tory member of Parliament from Guilford. This had long been another source of friction between the couple, as Caroline was a Whig and wanted social reform, while George was deeply conservative. But in eighteen thirty, so just a couple years after they got married, Norton lost his seat in the general election. And this is a moment where his self import becomes really apparent. As well as a bit of delusion, because George was insistent that he was actually the most popular candidate. He didn't claim that the election was rigged, that the counts had been erroneous, but he did claim that the people who voted against him didn't want to and that it caused them great stress. He said a whole thing about how they cried as they cast votes against him. We'll talk about the friendship of Caroline's that saved George's financial standing but also ultimately led to a serious and scandalous legal battle, and we will do that after we take a quick sponsor break. Because of the financial strain the Nortons were living in, Caroline started writing, hoping that her family name might help her sell some of her work to support the household. Her writing also offered her an escape from the unpleasant day to day that was going on in her household. Between the financial issues and the abuse, she had plenty to want to escape from. Though he had indicated to Caroline's family that he was able to financially support Caroline and a family. After his election lost, George started and almost immediately asking his new wife to use her influence in society circles to get him an appointment somewhere that would bring in an income, preferably with little or no actual work. Caroline was completely embarrassed to be put in this position to do such a thing, but she did it, trading on her father's good name to reach out to anyone who might be able to help with a position that George would find acceptable. Enter Lord Melbourne. Yes, that Lord Melbourne, William Lamb, second Viscount Melbourne, who became Prime Minister of the UK an adviser to Queen Victoria. When Melbourne received a letter from the granddaughter of his friend Richard Sheridan asking about appointments for her husband, he went and visited the Norton home and Melbourne and Caroline became good friends, and George got that appointment he was after he got a job earning a thousand pounds a year serving as a magistrate in the Lambeth Division of the Metropolitan Police Courts. This arrangement calmed the household down for a little while. This relationship between Caroline and Melbourne would become a central source of conflict in her life, and opinions are still divided on the nature of that relationship. For context, Melbourne was about thirty years older than Caroline, and his wife, Caroline Lamb, had died in eighteen twenty eight, So this has been interpreted by some historians as a man who was interested in a younger woman, and by others as a man enjoying a pretty fatherly relationship with Caroline Norton. Melbourne definitely was drawn to Caroline's intellect and her playful approach to life, something that seems remarkable giving what her home life was like. The two of them definitely adored one another. They had pet names for each other. They wrote to one another about their dismay when their schedules didn't give them time together. In the meantime, the Nortons had had two children, both son Fletcher, was born in eighteen twenty nine and Thomas Brinsley, who went by Brinsley, was born in eighteen thirty one, and Caroline had really gained some recognition and success with her writing. She published several books of verse. In eighteen twenty nine alone titled The Sorrows of Rosalie, I Do Not Love Thee and the Cold Change, and the following year a book titled The Undying One was successful enough that it garnered her jobs editing two literary magazines, La Belle, Lassemble and The Court Magazine. But as Caroline's literary reputation and her relationship with Lord Melbourne grew, so did George's anger at her. It's really impossible to know the cause and effect of his irrationality, but there definitely seems to have been some jealousy in the mix. Despite the rumors that Caroline and Melbourne had a romantic relationship, initially, George didn't say anything about it, probably because he didn't want to lose favor with Melbourne. In eighteenth Caroline had the couple's third child. This was another boy named William. While she was still pregnant, George flew into a rage at her over what seemed a mild exchange about where to sit at breakfast. Caroline wrote about it this way quote On another occasion, sometime before the birth of my youngest son, I being at breakfast and my eldest child playing about the room, mister Norton entered. He desired me to rise and leave the place I was sitting in as it faced the park, and it amused him to see the people pass by. I demurred and said I was not well, and that he should have come down earlier if he had any fancy or choice about places. We had no other word of dispute. Mister Norton then deliberately took the tea kettle and set it down upon my hand. I started up from the pain and was both burnt and scalded. I ran up to the nursery, and the nurse got the surgeon who lived next door to come in and dress my hand, which remained bound up and useless for days. When this was over, I inquired where mister Norton was, and received for reply that after I had been hurt, he had simply desired the servant to brush the crumbs away in the place he had desired me to yield, and then sat down there and breakfasted, and had since gone out without one word of apology or inquiry. Later in that year, there was another terrible incident at the Norton home, and what set George off is not really known. Caroline was pregnant with their fourth child at the time. This had not inspired any kind of gentleness in her abusive husband. Caroline became so afraid of George on this occasion that she locked herself in the drawing room only to have. George smashed the door down, taking the doorframe with it. He attacked her. In a written account, it is said that he quote man handled her down the stairs, so it's not really clear if this is a stilted way to say that he pushed her, or if he was attacking her as she made her way down. Either way, he was violent enough that the house staff had to entervene and hold George back so that Caroline could get away. Sadly, after this she had a miscarriage. But though George had continued to be physically abusive, he hurt Caroline the most desperately in eighteen thirty five, when he moved their three sons out of the house. While Caroline was away visiting her sister. George sent the boys to a woman he knew named Miss Vaughan. Sometimes she's described as a relative of George's. I was not entirely clear on that. Others hint that she may have been a mistress, and I didn't chase down that rabbit hole. But Miss Vaughan would not let Caroline see the children. Naturally, the mother was deeply distraught, and grew even more so when she discovered that legally she had no rights in this matter whatsoever. George, as her husband, was entitled to keep her children away from her for as long as he wished, or until they reached legal adulthood. They were still little kids at this time. Caroline absolutely adored her children, so this was an incredibly cruel act. To make matters worse. All of the effort that Caroline had put into her writing career only resulted in money for her husband. She could not legally receive her own income. It all went to the husband if a woman was married. She moved in with her family in eighteen thirty five, but because she was still married, George still controlled her financially. But Caroline's problems with her husband were only beginning. She had moved out of their home the same year that Lord Melbourne became Prime Minister, and George saw this as an opportunity to capitalize on her friend's new position by suing him for adultery, claiming that the affair rumors about Caroline and Lord Melbourne were true. George didn't actually go right to the legal action, though. First she tried to blackmail Melbourne, offering to drop the idea of a court case if the Prime Minister gave him fourteen hundred pounds. Melbourne was having none of this told him to go away, but George Norton talked about the potential adultery case with other high level Tory politicians, and soon there was a full scale smear campaign against Melbourne and an effort to undermine his political career. Norton planted stories and Tory papers about his wife and the Prime Minister. But George also went after Caroline at full tilt in these efforts, planting stories that she had affairs with a number of members of the Whig Party. Some papers even printed stories that suggested that she and her sisters were all involved in affairs with various men, all of whom just happened to be Whigs. As this legal action loomed in this whole scandal broke, Lord Melbourne distanced himself from Caroline and offered to resign his position. King William the Fourth, though refused to accept it, and soon the plot to undermine the Prime Minister and the Whig Party was revealed. William Best first Lord Winford, who was a Tory who served as Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, was found to have been in collusion with George Norton to plan this entire smear campaign. This entire scandal was denounced by politicians from both the Whig and Tory parties, and it was considered a huge embarrassment for the Tories. At this point. George's actions had resulted in Caroline not only losing access to her sons, but it also cut her off from the man who was her best friend. Coming up, we'll talk about how this trial played out, but first we will hear from the sponsors that keep Stuffymith and history class going. Though the scheming on the part of Lord Winford and George was revealed, Norton still moved forward in his case against Melbourne, and he sought ten thousand pounds in damages for the alleged adultery between the politician and Caroline. George had several of the House staff brought in to testify that there had been a romance between Melbourne and Caroline, and even that Melbourne was not the only man that Caroline had an affair with. This testimony is gross. The descriptions offered up in court by the House staff regarding Caroline's behavior are generally course. They suggest a woman who seemed to have no care whatsoever, that she might be seen in a completely inappropriate state by her staff. Caroline was furious and mortified and wrote that all such testimony was invention. It turned out that George's brother, Lord Grantly, had been in contact with all of the testifying house staff before the trial, and a lot of people believe that he paid them to speak out against Caroline. To modern ears, perhaps the strangest part of George Norton's case hinged on three letters that Lord Melbourne had written to Caroline. And these were not ardent love letters far. These were extremely short. They mentioned only the details of visits. And they're so brief that we can read them all here very quickly. The first reads and its entirety quote I will call about half past four. The second has three short sentences quote how are you. I shall not be able to come today, I shall tomorrow. And the third has four fragmented sentences, quote no house today. I will call after the levee. If you wish it later, let me know. I will then explain about going to Vauxhall. The case is made by Norton's counsel that these were evidence of a deep level of familiarity and affection for the simple reason that they contained no formal greeting or sign off. This is the weirdest part to me, because there are letters where they are very very affectionate with one another and they didn't use those, and it's so weird, and I don't know if they didn't have access to them or what, but it's a really strange way to make a defense. And though Norton and his lawyers showed up with a lot of claims of evidence, this entire thing was perceived by the jury as complete nonsense and a cash grab, and they asked that the case be thrown out without even needing to hear any of the defense, and the entire business was concluded in a single day June thirteenth, eighteen thirty six. This was technically a legal victory for Caroline. Really it was for Melbourne because the case was between Norton and Melbourne, but the whole thing really hurt Caroline. Melbourne refused to continue their friendship and she grieved that loss very deeply, and in society circles, even though she was found to have done no wrongdoing, her reputation was completely destroyed, and even though she had been legally cleared of any adulterous behavior. She was still seen as a scandalous figure, and far worse, she had no recourse whatsoever to see Fletcher, Brinsley and William. She thought she would be granted access to them when the trial was over, but discovered that even after that, the law still gave George exclusive rights to determine the children's care. And these kids were young. They were six, four and two. They were in their very formative stages and probably just missed their mother. George eventually said that she could have brief visits with them only in his lawyer's office. She later wrote, quote what I suffered on my children's account none will ever know or measure. Mister Norton held my children as hostages. He felt that while he had them, he still had power over me that nothing could control. She even attempted to get Lord Melbourne involved, although he continued to maintain a complete separation from her in all matters. So Caroline used her writing to advocate for a change in the law. In her first pamphlet on the subject of child custody, titled Observations on the Natural Claim of a Mother to the Custody of her Children as affected by the Common law right of the father. She made the case that because the law gave out absolute rights to the father slash husband, it didn't offer any protection for the children in the event that person was unfit and neglectful, etc. It also allowed for a father to give his children to anyone he chose for care, with no provisions about that person's ability or behaviors. She actually makes the case here that a man could take his wife's children and just give them to his mistress. This is part of that whole question mark around the woman that he handed the kids over to. This was very significant. Although Caroline's reputation had suffered, she was still recognized as a woman of society and she was very respected as a writer. So for her to speak out about the failings of family laws it was a pretty big deal. And not only did she speak out against it, she worked really hard to try to have it changed. Though Caroline was personally negatively affected by the existing laws, some lawmakers had also recognized that there was a flaw in the system that enabled adulterous husband to keep their children, while women who had done nothing wrong could be barred from seeing their children if the husbands so chose. There were other cases on the books where things just like that had happened, and Caroline appealed to one of the members of Parliament who had seen such cases unfold. That was Sir Thomas Telford. Telford could be an episode all on his own, and perhaps will at some point, but he's important to Caroline's story because he agreed to introduce a bill that would allow women in her specific position, which was mother's accused of and cleared of the charge of adultery, to take custody of any children under seven years of age. There was also a provision for the mother to have access to children older than that. The idea here was that it would be easier to argue the case for younger children who needed more care, and Telford made that case well. The House of Commons passed the bill in the spring of eighteen thirty eight, though only a small fraction of the House was in attendance to vote. Among those who were there, the vote was heavily skewed in favor of changes to the existing law, but once it passed to the House of Lords, it failed by a measly two votes. Part of the problem was Telford's association with Caroline and the press dragged her through the coals, again, calling her names and insinuating that there was something sexual going on between her and Telford. And this all really reflects the sort of scorn a woman would get, even if she was found innocent of wrongdoing, for having been part of any scandal involving men of power. She had hurt Melbourne's reputation, and she was characterized as a quote she devil in the press because of it. But Talford tried it again. He reintroduced his bill in eighteen thirty nine. It once again sailed through the House of Commons, but this time Telford had sought out support in the House of Lords to help make his case that the bill was sound and was in the best interest of children. The loudest attractor was the same person who had tried to take Melbourne down. That was William Best, First Lord Winford. His position was that letting women have custody of children in a separated marriage would only enable such women to turn the children against their fathers. He framed it as an assault on men's rights as fathers and said that it was important to quote prevent the improper access of an angry woman to the children of her husband. He also claimed that though new legislation might help one woman, it would quote ruin a hundred children. But though Lord Winford had people in Parliament who agreed with him, the bill passed, and the Custody of Children Act gave new rights to mothers starting in eighteen thirty nine. Under the Act, mothers who were not guilty of adultery would have custody of any children under the age of seven. But it also provided for there to be access to children for either parent who was not their primary caregiver. So with this victory, we are going to close out part one. Part two we will cover Caroline's ongoing battles with her husband and another piece of litigation that she influenced. Do you also have some listener mail for us. It's from our listener Sam, who is writing about our Eliza Fenning episode. Also as an aside, I know I've been in really dark places with my stuff lately. I'm good, Like I said I've said before, that's usually when I'm in a pretty good place and I can handle it. So Sam writes, Howdy, I'm sure you'll get a couple of these, but I wanted to say that I knew I recognized the Eliza Fenning case from somewhere, and I eventually remembered that it's often cited as an inspiration for Frankenstein. I wrote an essay on the trial of Justine Mritz, which always interests me as something completely forgotten about the original narrative for many folks, and a thread that sticks out of the weave for me. Justine is a servant considered incredibly kind and helpful and trusted, who is wrongly accused of murder and then wrongly convicted and executed. I've included the essay I wrote, don't judge me too much. It was from freshman year of undergrad. I do have a paragraph on the comparison and cite the essay I got it from. But I think the more interesting part is how Justine Moritz has failed by both the state that convicts her and the church which pushes her to a false confession, and how she is condemned repeatedly for lack of gratitude, and how all this pushes her to the outside of society, where the creature feels forced to live. Eliza Fenning's trial is interpreted by Mary Shelley as evidence of how British society feels that the lower class is just on the bubble of inhumanity at any time. Included some pics of our family cat does Demona, who decided that me finishing a puzzle was not enough about her. Thanks for reading, Sam. I wanted to read this because we mentioned Mary Shelley in this episode, so it seemed like a good connector. And I feel like I scribbled us down in a note somewhere while working on the Eliza Fending episode, and then I probably intended to talk about it behind the scenes and forgot. So I am thankful to you Sam for her. Also, listen, don't you can't have puzzles and cats at the same time. You've got to pick one or another. Those are the rules, at least at my house. You've just reminded me that maybe I can't remember if it was for Christmas or Birthday. I bought my spouse like one of those mats that you can put down and you work your puzzle and then you can roll it up when it's not in use. I have so many questions, Okay, I'll ask you them later about the functionality of this mat, because I think it may depend on how you are humble puzzles anyway, Thank you, Sam, that is a great point. And listen Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. I'll talk about it all day any day. I love it. Sure. If you would like to write to us, you could do so at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. You can also find us on social media as a Missed in History and you can subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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