Mailbag: Promoting Shot-Shaping on the PGA Tour, Improving Golf Telecasts, and Renovating Augusta National

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.

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Speaker 2: Ball in a bride egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, fridagggggg, Frida egg, bride egg.

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Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison and I'm here in person with Andy Johnson.

00:00:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, rare, rare time in person recording. It only happens a couple of times a year. It's nice to be out here in San Francisco on the West Coast with you.

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Speaker 3: Garrett.

00:00:52
Speaker 2: We are doing a mail bag podcast today. We put out a call on Twitter and on Instagram for questions for a podcast where we answer those questions, and we got a bunch of them. We're definitely not going to cover.

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Speaker 3: All of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but thank you for sending in your questions. If you did that, we're sorry we didn't get to them all.

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Speaker 1: Always trying to be as many as possible, but absolutely, yeah, this will be fun. This will be a little bit different and change of pace, and then we'll be back to interviews and different things next week.

00:01:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, we thought it was a good time to do a mailbag podcast because there have been a lot of different interesting things happening in the golf world recently, whether it's golf course architecture, whether it's the Premier Golf League, SADI Golf League stuff, whether it's the Players Championship, which was a really compelling tournament, and so there are just a bunch of different subjects that we felt like we could tackle, and so we thought why not sort of sample from them. I thought we'd start with some Players Championship discussion. Players Championship wrapped up on Monday of this week, and we also have some questions on the PGA Tour more generally, and some questions on golf course architecture as usual, so those are coming up, but thought we would talk about the players first. So first question for the players from Jeffrey Wright on Twitter. He says watching guys hit shots on Saturday was delightful, but it felt like a one off because of the wins. Is there anything set up wise the tour could do to replicate the viewing experience and force guys to hit more types of shots or is it hopeless because of the TPC network. I don't think it's the TPC network that makes it hopeless. It's it's more just the kind of general approach to set up that the PGA Tour has. But it's a good question, like how do we get that.

00:02:41
Speaker 1: Well, they could have a Bilata and persimmon tournaments that that would get that, that would be that'd be an easy, easy fix. But given that that's not probably happening. I think staging tournaments in extreme wind extremely windy locations, maybe you find a place that's really windy, find a title sponsor. The tour is good at finding title sponsors, and say hey, we want to we want to create this this event. Now, the the issue there is that players probably wouldn't show up. You know, that's like always the issue. You know, you think about Triney Forrest and there's a little bit more than just the golf course. You know, from the spectator standpoint, it wasn't great because of you know, it wasn't where it used to be at the I think it was the Four Seasons course, but you know, the spectators there wasn't a lot of shade and stuff. But you go to go to Triney Forest, which is a golf course that's different. It's windy. You know, it's on top of a landfill in Texas and it's windy, and it's got these really cool greens and micro contours and the fairways, and of course the players just don't show up. So that's the issue. I think the issue is more so on the players and then obviously the equipment. So yeah, unless we get extreme winds and you know, the Open really hasn't had them except for some at Port Rush. That that's kind of what you're you're left to, right, you just you just sort of looking for wind? Is is what requires shot making?

00:04:17
Speaker 2: Really, wind was the big thing. Other factors can definitely enhance shot making. I mean, good architecture, firmness, all the things that we bang on about. I mean these these are factors as well. But wind, I think, as we saw this past weekend, is the single biggest factor which makes you want to see more tournaments on links courses. Obviously on the on the European Tour, you wish there was a bigger link swing, a link swing that wasn't occupied with courses that aren't really links courses. You know, why is the Hirish Open being held? And uh I got some guff from some people who may have had business connections to Mount Juliet last time. I so maybe I should stay away from that. But yeah, I mean, link season on the European Tour seems like a slam dunk, right, But it's not. And the reason it's not is, as you said earlier, the players. There was a great interview that Shane Bacon did with Keith Pelly, the the Commissioner of the European Tour. I don't know if that's his actual title. He might he might go by CEO, but there's a great interview that Shane did with him on Golf Today, on the show that he and Damon Hack do on Golf Channel, where Shane actually asked him why isn't there a link season on the European Tour? What what about a bigger, longer, more, you know, you know, branded kind of out there link season. And Keith Pelly had a funny reaction where he said, you know, nobody's ever asked me this question before, and it's like, well, good job Shane for finally asking this question. But basically what Pelly said is that a few years ago we brought the idea of a proper link season to the players, and they said no, because it would just be too hard for them to play three or four consecutive events on links courses and then go back to the ordinary golf that we get on the PGA Tour and the European Tour, which is these soft setups target golf a lot of the things that links golf works against and that make it so delightful. And so that is a good representation right there of how hard it is to get the players to buy into playing a different kind of golf. The players think that hurts it hurts their game.

00:06:41
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's some some case to that. I think, you know, when you play in heavy winds regularly, you can get into some bad habits. And there are aspects of that statement that rain true with regards to the you know, the players and their attitudes towards swing changes. But at the same time, they also would develop a lot more shot making and that could help them in situations such as the players on Saturday. So I think it's a double edged sword. But it's so hard to get players to buy into anything that's different, and it makes sense, you know, they've they've gotten to a point where they're making millions of dollars playing golf a certain way, and any sort of change that could rock the boat. Who knows. Maybe you're not a good links player, but you're a really good target golf player, and the idea of a link swing, you know, you start to think, well, what if people love this? And what if it becomes bigger than this? What if it becomes more than a swing? And all of a sudden you start these are you know this is I always use this example when you talk about course changes. But you know, if you say to sales rep, we're changing your commission structure, the immediate response is always negative. You could it could be the best deal in the world for them. Any sort of change is a bad thing in their minds because that you're changing the way I compensated. You're changing my job is changing.

00:08:13
Speaker 3: I've got I've got this.

00:08:14
Speaker 2: The way that things are, I have it figured out. I'm humming along, I'm doing good. If you change that, then that's not good.

00:08:21
Speaker 1: So you think about it. And this is where golf struggles so much, I think because in other sports you have that ownership proxy that that is in it for the fans because they know the more popular their sport is the more revenue that their stadiums and their their teams are worth. They're more money, their franchise is worth, you know, and the players, you know, if if everything was equal, like I don't think NBA players would do press conferences every night, you know, but they do them every night in the playoffs because hey, like the that's what the league mandates. And that's the issue with the PGA Tour being run effectively by the players, and that's been reiterated numerous times during this somewhat tumultualist times on the PGA Tour is Hey, Jmi Han, I work for you guys.

00:09:15
Speaker 3: It's already your tour.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is our a year tour. And so this is a perfect example, Like you don't like those courses, we don't go to those courses.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yep, that's the way it is.

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Speaker 2: And that's why we don't get more days like we had at the Stadium course on Saturday, which which was, as Jeffrey Wright said, delightful. All right, on to the next question. Matt Mullen on Twitter. Any insight into why we didn't get every shot live this week in the US Every shot live is the much vaunted PGA Tour platform that showed you every shot at the Players Championship at debuted. I believe last year, maybe the year before. I'm not sure.

00:09:52
Speaker 1: Last year, but well I think it was the year before. But who can remember.

00:09:57
Speaker 2: Mysteriously unavailable this year to us customer. It sounds like people in Canada at least maybe in other countries as well.

00:10:04
Speaker 1: Golf TV, Yeah, Golf TV had it. Anybody that uses Golf TV, so it exists. Yeah, the infrastructure for whatever it is is still there. And somebody Brendan on the Shotgun Start was saying that it was tied to ESPN. Plus it has something to do with the new right steal. Okay, so just another example of money and fans losing out.

00:10:29
Speaker 2: So that's the answer to the question. And he inside into why we didn't get every shot live money new media rights deal. This is this is a realignment.

00:10:37
Speaker 1: Of the PG eight Tour doing what they do best, giving the middle finger to fans.

00:10:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, because this was an asset to fans, like this was a cool thing. It's a cool thing at the Masters every year where you can go through somebody's round and see every shot. I did an article last year after the Master's on the thirteenth hole at Augusta and guess what I could do. I could go back and watch every single drive in the tournament on the thirteenth hole and so like that was good for me as a golf writer, but I think it's also for for golf nerds. If you're really interested in how players are playing the third hole Augusta, or in every shot live, if you're really curious how they handle the fourth hole, fascinating, you know, shortish part four. This this platform could allow you to dig into those details that's gone and so it's a bummer and instead we got we got gold Boy.

00:11:27
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not going to complain about relacement, because I really it really made my week. It was you know, even even my wife, who doesn't care about golf at all, found Goldblight to be quite humorous. And uh, I will say this, I think that that golf I and this is inside baseball kind of thing. I you know, there's two other sports that I listened to podcasts too regularly. It's the NFL and the NBA. And I listened to the podcasters of the NBA in the NFL, and they talk about oh, I watched the all twenty two of this game and the NFL, and then it's like, oh, I was watching League Past the the you know, effectively going back and watching a game from last night. And I always think, like, god, you know how nice it would be to like, you know, rick Ricky's been in a slump, like let's watch let's see like we can look at stats, but like I'd love to just watch every shot and see, oh, this is this is why it's not working, you know. But I don't get afforded that luxury for my own job. And I think for fans that cost fans like you know, NBA has their League Pass, MLB has whatever they call it. You know, NFL has their Sunday Ticket, and you every sport has the ability for you to watch everything. And I know that this is a big undertaking for the tour, and there's this small it's a much smaller subset of fans that could watch it, want it. But the idea of just getting rid of it, well, I here, you've made such a big deal in your biggest market is just it's just crazy. What what's the innovation for then?

00:13:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean think about what happens in the NBA, the NFL and baseball. Baseball's got its own issues right now, but with the gambling element in those sports and how that attracts fans and obsessed fans, right and maybe it's not a great influence like the the you know, ethical implications of all this or I think we're going to work those out over the next number of years. But right now golf is in a position where it's attracting a lot of people who are interested in fantasy golf. And guess what those what that kind of person likes to do when they're really trying to get an edge, dig into the details, like get nerdy about it.

00:13:49
Speaker 1: And you also, when you're betting, you like to watch what's going on and understand. You know, people instead just watch shot tracker, Like yeah, you know, if I'm if I'm betting on golf, I'm gonna be on shot tracker. Like when I I have a friend who plays on the Corn Ferry Tour, you know what I do, like a lot of I watched the worst shot tracker in the world. Yeah, because I'm I'm trying to like keep up to date with what's going on and see you know, see where and you know, every shot live has so much potential. It doesn't have to be live either. That's the thing.

00:14:22
Speaker 3: It just has to be. It just has to exist.

00:14:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to be able to see shots, you know, And I think like that's the thing is even if you get if you could get to like where you we got nine holes, it would be a huge improvement, Like these are the places that needs to be improved, leaps and bounds. And I wonder, like, you know, I don't know. I'm not a production person outside of very small scale productions with the Frida Eck extremely small, like the smallst of small scale productions.

00:14:55
Speaker 3: But I mean it's not like a golf tel cast.

00:14:58
Speaker 1: But like you know, forty million dollars in pip money that just popped up out of thin air. Like how far would forty million dollars get us with terms of getting like how many? How many tournaments can we do every shot live with forty million dollars? It probably wouldn't be one, I would guess. I would guess that, abut probably more like ten. And you start to think about that, it's like, oh, like if I could get every shot live for the FedEx Cup Playoffs, the WGCs, the players Riviera all of a sudden, that's like wow. You know, you just improve the product immensely for fans. And if you're going to have a more popular sport, you know what that does. That drives more revenue to the sport and then your players make more money. So that could be a more holistic, sustainable model to pay your top players more is simply invest in the fan experience so more people like the sport.

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Speaker 2: Why is it that these incentives, which seems so obvious in other sports, the more popular our league is, the better everybody is going to do. Why does that logic not apply to what the PGA Tour does? Because it seems like at every turn the PGA Tour is not operating according to that seemingly obvious logic that if you get more fans and give them a good experience, then everybody's going to make more money and be happier on your tour. Why why is it that that incentive just doesn't seem to.

00:16:34
Speaker 1: Work the players?

00:16:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go, all right. Next question, Christopher Motes on Instagram asks if if Sawgrass was a band, what would it be That?

00:16:48
Speaker 1: It's an interesting question. I think, you know, it's a it's something that has it has some bite to it. It's not like a mellow jam band in any any way, Like a little bit it's really in your face, like I think in a way, like I I think in a way it could be like a C d C.

00:17:16
Speaker 3: That's a good that's a good one.

00:17:18
Speaker 1: Where yeah, it's Tobacco Road. That's like the one thing I think about is like where like if you're playing it, it's really cool, but then it keeps hitting me in the face and you're just like, I don't know if I really want to keep doing this. Well, you know what, I'll say. One of my favorite bands actually, Red Hot Chili Peppers.

00:17:43
Speaker 2: Thought I thought you would say that. Actually it's the first band that came to mind for me too, Like a little bit mainstream, you know, like not every song is brilliant, but a really solid band that was very influential.

00:17:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and it's got like it's got some edge to it, right like they have, Like especially the early Red Hot Chili Peppers just like early saw Grass, they had some real edge.

00:18:08
Speaker 3: That's true.

00:18:09
Speaker 2: And they got more, they got more, yeah, yeah, refined as they went along, for sure. Yeah, Red Hot Chili Peppers got more pop.

00:18:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh totally.

00:18:16
Speaker 3: They used to be more funk rock.

00:18:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, more punk rock really you think so?

00:18:21
Speaker 3: Yeah?

00:18:21
Speaker 1: They had like they were like punk punk funk.

00:18:23
Speaker 3: Okay in a way. Yeah.

00:18:25
Speaker 2: Well you know about more about the Chili Peppers than I do. But I think that is that's a really solid comp I couldn't really come up with many bands that I'd compared TPC Sawgrass to as interesting a question as it is, it would have to be No, that's a free stance, uh TVC saw Grass would have to be. I feel like it would be a band that was really good and and kind of pushed the art forward a bit, did something kind of new, but spawned a lot of imitators that weren't nearly as good. And I can't think of a band that's like that, though I know that one is out there.

00:19:08
Speaker 3: There has to be. There has to be a band that fits that description.

00:19:11
Speaker 1: Creed.

00:19:16
Speaker 2: Let's move on, all right, more general questions about the PGA tour. I'm going to pair up a couple of questions from Anti Faldo or Antifa oldo, however you want to pronounce it, and then one of my favorite user names on Twitter, Burrito Bros. Shit So anti Faldo asks if top tracer is just a line? This is referring to a famous Andy take that that shot tracer that you see on golf telecast tracing the flight of the ball is just a line, and it's it's not actually accurate or meaningful or whatever. We can have you describe that take more. Anti Faldo says, how do we improve it? What other graphics should be added to the telecast that would vide additional value, more skycam, more wind visualization graphics. And then BBS, as I'll call him, asks what would be the best way to change the broadcast to accurately depict the topography.

00:20:13
Speaker 3: Of golf courses?

00:20:14
Speaker 2: Which I think is a really good way to almost answer Anti follow this question, which is you don't need more graphics necessarily, you just maybe need better shots of the golfers and the course.

00:20:27
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:20:27
Speaker 1: I mean that's some of the best shots you always see here from the guy that's the camera, guys that work their asses off and are running to get behind people, and that they show the scale properly of a golf hole.

00:20:39
Speaker 2: The ones who have the good cameras, yeah, you know the guy, the ones who have the really detailed cameras that can that can focus and blur the background, and that can that can you know, get some I don't know the proper terminology here, but but can use a longer focal length I guess is the term where you're more zoomed in so that you can actually see what's in the background come closer to you. And I think that's really key in photographing golf courses. You need that long lens in order to bring the background closer and actually show what is there. I think that's the way to show topography better. And we're occasionally seeing some of these moves from CBS recently. Yeah, and I don't know what they're doing.

00:21:20
Speaker 1: Well, the CBS has their golf telecast's gone a lot better. I think the other thing just setting up the cameras and into the right spots, understanding what the hole is doing, and getting your camera towers and the right spots and the right height. Every camera tower seemingly the same height. And they're golf photographers that I have a running joke with that have like a you know they're drone on auto that said, Siri, you know they got Syria and the drone fly up to fifty meters fly behind the green, behind the green, and it's the same shot every time, and it's the same thing that happens with golf telecast.

00:21:58
Speaker 2: It makes every course look the the way that it shot makes all the courses look the same.

00:22:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it flattens everything from too high of an angle. So that's one big thing in terms of shot tracer.

00:22:11
Speaker 2: I don't agree with this tank at all. I mean, it's a goofy. You're not totally serious.

00:22:17
Speaker 1: No, I'm not totally serious about the shot. I just think that a little bit too much is made of it. I think that like too much stock is put into the shot racer because it's wrong a lot of times, like there are malfunctions.

00:22:31
Speaker 2: Which might sort of play into the controversy with Daniel Berger this past weekend where Victor Hovland and Joel Damon in the final round on the sixteenth hole, after Daniel Berger hid it into the pond, they were kind of asking him where that drop should be. They thought he was a little bit too far forward, that the ball crossed farther back than Berger was saying. And then of course the shot tracer shot gets posted on social media sites and every everybody uses the shot tracer line as absolute gospel. This is definitely where exactly where the ball flew, and we can see it unmistakably crossing the hazard at this particular point. And I was just like, okay, even if that line is right on where the ball is, and it might be the angle of where you're shooting might kind of affect the way the curve is going. Like, I don't know where that ball crossed the hazard.

00:23:24
Speaker 3: I really don't.

00:23:25
Speaker 2: But I don't think that going to the shot tracer line as the confirming evidence is the way to go.

00:23:31
Speaker 1: I want to get back to shot tracer all right, let's go.

00:23:34
Speaker 3: Let's not. Let's not.

00:23:36
Speaker 1: Let's but do you know what it reminds me of. It reminds me of that when the NHL had that that blur for the hockey puck, you know, with the like it was like a shooting comet.

00:23:51
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever watched hockey on television.

00:23:54
Speaker 2: Oh that's sad, it's a It's a perfect example of a I don't know if people will agree with this.

00:23:59
Speaker 3: Great lives, amazing, live sport.

00:24:01
Speaker 2: I used to go to hockey games and playoff hockeys and crows.

00:24:05
Speaker 3: I don't I haven't watched. I don't get it on television because I can't see the puck well.

00:24:09
Speaker 1: So this was a big problem with with hockey. It was that you couldn't see the puck. So they made this It's just it's just like shot tracer. It was a puck thing. It was like, I forgot what they called it, but it was like it was like the puck was a shooting star and it left like a trail. It was like a pup trail. And that was the first iteration of it. And then they went to like this thing and then they I think they just like learned how to shadow right now, Like I think it would look a lot better if it wasn't just a line, right. You know, the line can sometimes even obscure what you're looking at on the camera because it gets in the way. You can you might not be able to even see the pin where the pin is because the line is over the pin. And I think you could just go with like a small highlight, you know, like you could just throw like a very subtle little something.

00:25:01
Speaker 3: Something that's around the ball, as opposed.

00:25:03
Speaker 1: To showing it doesn't have to be this big line. And then sometimes like for the most part. You know that's pretty boring. You know, it's just a straight line, none of these guys. But then occasionally you could.

00:25:15
Speaker 2: Put the line on it, so you think it should be used less.

00:25:19
Speaker 3: Wait, I think most.

00:25:20
Speaker 2: People make the ball visible. They should make a bigger ball. Maybe this is an argument for a bigger ball.

00:25:30
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just.

00:25:33
Speaker 3: Here's the thing I see.

00:25:34
Speaker 2: I think that the shot tracer has made golf telecasts a lot better. I think it's improved golf telecast I disagree. Okay, but but but you just don't.

00:25:45
Speaker 3: Don't think my.

00:25:47
Speaker 1: Take has better. The shot racers overrated.

00:25:51
Speaker 3: It's just a line.

00:25:52
Speaker 1: I have to stick to it.

00:25:54
Speaker 2: You're you're a prisoner of your own takes at this point. All right, I'm dugging out at house. Sacho asks Randall is constantly clamoring for narrow fairways and long rough to identify the best player. You can't roll back equipment or guarantee wind well, you can roll back equipment. I think maybe that how Sacho is asking us to operate from the premise that you might not be able to roll back equipment. Which courses setup do you two choose to identify the best men's and women's golfer called the TFE Championship. I think a lot of good courses exist on the PGA Tour already where this this can happen. But does anything come to mind for you?

00:26:37
Speaker 1: I thought Shinnacock was pretty good.

00:26:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's been in Kia Shannakok.

00:26:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kia Shannakock, Kia. You're gonna get wind like a non Wendy Tay out there, Swindy And I think, like, so that's a big thing with Kiowa. I don't. I'm not crazy about a lot of the way the golf courses is presented, but the conditions win Trump's all Like, I mean, it was so wet saw grass and the wind made it so so funn Can you imagine if yeah would be Well, that's what you get. You get you get with you get wide fairways, you get firm turf, and you get wind all the time because it's like up high exposed on the on Long Island and island out in the ocean. So I mean Shinnakock And here's the thing, you know, Shinnakock's. Shinacock was one of the first clubs that had women members, and it would be one of the most delightful courses to watch a US Women's Open. It has open green fronts, it has firm turf, it has wind. It would you know, it allows for shots to bounce in it. Really it's you know, women prefer playing Shinnacock to National because National has a lot of carries into greens and trench bunkers and you know, different things. And in Shinnacock would be a marvelous, marvelous US Women's Open, of course, like that would be. That's like probably near the very very top of a golf tournament that I would want to go see. Is is Shinnacock US Women's Open.

00:28:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, that that would be. That would be awesome. Every year the PGA Tour goes to Riviera every year. In different ways, that course is fantastic. There are certain certainly ways that Riviera could be improved, but it gets a lot of a lot of things right. It gets a lot of the important things right. And uh, you know a telling thing that happened either last year or a couple of couple of years ago at Riviera is that when the wind kicked up, they halted the tournament for a while. Do you remember this? This must have been last year. It was last year, and and that is just representative of of kind of the problem, right that.

00:28:57
Speaker 1: That was way crazy. Yeah, I mean did you see it? Remember the putt the putts on the green on the tenth green that were getting like blown into the bunker.

00:29:08
Speaker 3: Because because the greens were running too fast.

00:29:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that's an epidemic across the country.

00:29:13
Speaker 2: So yeah, so yeah, I think that's that is the issue, is that that course is and is great and could be greater. And if you didn't have to have the greens running so fast that they become almost unplayable when a fairly normal like Santa Ana win kicks up, then it would be much better. And I think that would be ideal. And I don't know, maybe.

00:29:41
Speaker 3: You need a rollback for that to really work, but I don't think so.

00:29:44
Speaker 1: Not a rollback would help pace the play a rif you know, they wouldn't have to wait for every you know, they have to wait on ten eleven.

00:29:53
Speaker 3: They would still have with any feasible rollback, they'd still have to wait on ten. Don't you think, I.

00:29:58
Speaker 1: Don't know ten You're not ten percent off everybody, And all of a sudden.

00:30:02
Speaker 3: There would be some par fives that would be.

00:30:04
Speaker 1: Well ten percent of three hundreds to seventy. Yeah, either if you knocked ten percent off, Yeah, yeah.

00:30:10
Speaker 2: I'd be curious to see the pace of play there like fifteen years ago, because that's that's what maybe a rollback could do, would be to restore distances approximate distances of about fifteen years ago.

00:30:23
Speaker 1: It'd be nice if I think, for for classic golf courses, if if three hundred was a monumental big drive. Yeah, you know, right now we're trending towards four hundred, which kind of absurd totally because what's the short part four If people can hit it three seventy, it.

00:30:43
Speaker 2: Used to be the marker of a massive drive. Oh my god, he hit it over three hundred. When John Daily averaged over three hundred, and I think it was the late nineties, maybe the early two thousands, that was an incredible achievement. It was like breaking the sound barrier or something, you know, And now that's, yeah, the mystique of that number has certainly gone down. So yeah, rollback is definitely part of this equation. But to answer the.

00:31:10
Speaker 1: Questmber, where I saw something, But I think it was Crenshaw I can't remember the graphic, but it was it was a what was in the bag during a big win? And it was from the seventies and the player was using a faraway wood from the forties. I mean, think about that now, Like think about if a guy won in twenty twenty and they're like, what's in your bag and they're like, I was using an or Lamar trimetal three wood.

00:31:45
Speaker 3: Or older than that.

00:31:46
Speaker 1: Adams tit live, Yeah, right.

00:31:48
Speaker 3: Like midd Well, yeah, Orlamar would be mid.

00:31:51
Speaker 1: There's a cobra, a wood cobra baffler, you know, Like it's just mind boggling what happened with like equipment like that, Like equipment didn't go out of style, like you know, that was the other thing that you know, the game was much more approachable because you didn't buy a club and have it be outdated ten years old.

00:32:13
Speaker 2: That's the that for me, that's the big thing that happened in the early two thousands. I mean many big things happened in the late nineties and early two thousands with equipment. All the things we've talked about, the prov one, the Titanium four hundred and sixty cc driver, et cetera, all those things that you've heard of happened then. But another big thing that happened is that equipment retail cycles started to turn over so so quickly. I mean, like the ping I two irons were on shelves in stores as Ping's flagship iron for like twenty five Yet maybe that's an exaggeration, but for the decades, yeah, I mean, And and you know, if you bought one of those, and if you bought ping It twos in nineteen eighty two and you had them still in nineteen ninety seven, nobody would be looking at your irons and thinking those are outdated.

00:33:06
Speaker 1: Hey, you know, this might be a perfect time to talk about our sponsor, Club Champion. Here's what I will say. This is a personal, personal anecdote. I have been going to Club Champion forever since when these guys were building clubs in their garage because they're Chicagoans. And this is what I'll say, and why I actually, like truly love Club Champion is that I go, I go get fit, and I like never ever have club envy because I go get fit. They have all the chafts, they have all the heads, you get to test all of them. It's a really cool experience, and then I know I have the right club and these clubs like hold up. Like I remember years ago, I was a company wanted to get me a driver. It was when I was playing a lot of midam golf and they had a mid am program and they wanted to get me a driver. And I went into Club Champion and literally the guy that's been fitting me forever was like, Andy, you'd be absolutely crazy to change clubs. Like you might pick up two yards with this new driver, but you're hitting it like ten yards more crooked in your best ones with your current driver. It's so tight and it might be your best ones get to where this one gets, and that's the stuff you get. And it's a way that I personally like, I don't buy new clubs because I go get fit and then I don't think about it for a while. And that's the way I've created some stability in my golf bag as well. So I'm not really tinkering because I know that I have the right clubs. So that's my Club Champion story. Do you know what our promo code is? Offhand?

00:34:57
Speaker 3: I think it's just Frida Egg.

00:34:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's Frida Egg. You get twenty percent off you're fitting.

00:35:02
Speaker 3: I'll correct this later if that's wrong.

00:35:03
Speaker 1: We go to go to club champion Golf dot com and you can schedule fitting. You'll get twenty percent off your fitting if with a purchase of a club. So now back to our discussion.

00:35:13
Speaker 2: All right, why don't we move on to another question here? We're still in kind of general golf questions PGA Tour and I like this one. This one was I feel like this that Ryan bass here was throwing you a hanging curveball and giving you a question that would be close to your heart. He asks, As it stands right now, can Trevor Immelman's team compete with USA? With the USA at Quill Hollow, I think they can. And then he did a screenshot of the current President's Cup standings for the international team and it's Cameron Smith, Hideki some JM Louius Tazan joking, Neeman Abe answer and then it kind of falls off a little bit. But you know, Mackenzie Hughes, Adam Scott, Eric Van Roy and Mark there's some good players here.

00:36:04
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:36:04
Speaker 2: At Bassie Muna's Mito Pereira might might emerge at some point. I haven't heard much about him.

00:36:10
Speaker 1: So a little background. I can't remember where I did a bold prediction that over the next twenty years the President's Cup would be more the more competitive team competition than the Ryder Cup. And I did this based off of like what I looked at, depth of young talent, and I thought, you know, when you look at the amateur ranks and you look at the professional ranks, there are a lot more intriguing young players on the international side, and obviously the Europeans they have two of the top five players that are internationals. You know, I'm saying the Europeans, Okay, yeah, you're talking about Hovland and Ram. Yeah, so it's tricky. But then when you get you get to kind of like the depth of the young internationals where you have you know, obviously camp Smith's in his twenties, yeah, Niemen and m And then you get into some of these the Japanese amateurs and you have obviously Hideki is still under thirty, right, I think nine, and you just start to look at it just seems like that that competition in the way the game in those areas is developing, and there are more and more young uh South Korean players, there's more and more young Japanese players, and and you know there it just so yeah, I think they can be competitive.

00:37:37
Speaker 2: The question of what Asian countries produce as far as men's golfers go over the next couple of decades is going to be a big one for the international team, because that's that's sort of the sleeping giant, I suppose as far as international team members go. So we'll see, and you know, Hideki may have a huge impact here what he's done over the past uh year. It could be very big. All right, Moving on to some golf course architecture questions. When should we wrap this up? How many more questions should we should we get to?

00:38:09
Speaker 3: Here?

00:38:10
Speaker 1: We got we got some time to talk about the PGA tour, you know.

00:38:13
Speaker 3: All right.

00:38:14
Speaker 2: First one, I'm not sure how much we want to talk about this right now, but it's directly relevant to what we're doing right now. Johann Golf on Instagram asks what did you think of Lake Merced's renovation? And also how is Green Hills? We've obviously posted that we have been to these places. We went to Green Hills Country Club earlier today, and we've also been out to what you guys have been out to lake merced to see some of Gil Hans's renovation restoration work going on there.

00:38:48
Speaker 1: I think lake mer said, it's still early. I mean they've only got about five or six holes done, so it's always hard. Like you know, it looks it's really cool and you know, I posted a then and now photo. It's it's pretty remarkable getting back the the lost mcken some of the lost mackenzie holes out there. Obviously they aren't getting all of them back because of the highway easeman. But that's I think that, you know, just in general, lake mercaid, what I I'm amazed by just the you know, that's going to be a massive transformation. And I think from from the club standpoint, you know, going and get and doing it and doing the whole thing and going all the way back is really awesome. It's going to be a lot different golf course than it was before. And I think it's going to have much more clear of an identity and it's going to be a lot more fun to play. And uh, I think it's also going to fit the landscape a lot more. I mean, it is going to be a markably better golf course. I I you know, and I don't want to make any grand proclamations about it because it's it's it's not finish yet now finished. I mean they got they got three three holes that are grassed in right now.

00:40:05
Speaker 2: But it's exciting because that has always been a super high potential golf course and a lot of people, including myself, thought this would never happen.

00:40:15
Speaker 1: That's the thing. That's it's just it's just one of those places where you're like, oh, what could have been if that, you know, And I think that's the that's the really neat thing. And obviously Gil and his team have done some tremendous jobs around the country and it's been really cool. It was it's really cool to go back to that corner that they have done and see and then you look at the old photos and you're like, wow, you know, like this is pretty pretty close to what they had and uh, if you know, it's really undiscernible to the eye on photos and this.

00:40:47
Speaker 2: Is a way for it to stand out. Yeah, I think it starts to stand out now.

00:40:51
Speaker 1: Well, it's a great club and a great membership too, Like it's been one of the uh, one of the most diverse clubs in San Francisco for since its beginning.

00:41:00
Speaker 2: Mercaid has has always had that vibe and that role in San Francisco. You have some exclusive clubs in the city, and you know, those are great clubs too, but Lake Mercaid is the club where people who live in the city have often felt like I can go there, I can get around there, I feel comfortable there. It has played that role, and I think that's really cool and needed because there are definitely some clubs in San Francisco where, you know, folks who live in the city their whole lives don't play there, even.

00:41:38
Speaker 3: If they're avid golfers. But Lake Mercaid has been a bit more accessible and open.

00:41:42
Speaker 1: What did you think of Green Hills.

00:41:44
Speaker 3: Green Hills Country Club?

00:41:45
Speaker 2: All right, Alistair mackenzie, course, I'm not exactly sure if nineteen thirty okay, and I thought it was terrific. I was really impressed by the piece of land. The routing is mostly intact there. They have have a lot of the original greens and a lot of the original contour, and so I thought there was a lot of cool stuff there now. And what's even more tantalizing is its potential. You know, if if they did a proper restoration of Alistair Mackenzie's work there, it would be one of those clubs that would compete for national members and for the affection of golf nerds, even in a city that has you know, Cow Club and s FGC, et cetera. And so yeah, I mean it's it's a sporty golf course with a super dramatic piece of land. It's not an easy walk for sure, but we walked it, so it is by definition walkable.

00:42:47
Speaker 1: I think it's super I mean it's super walkable because there's a small piece. It is small, and I think if you walked it a few times, you'd be in the in green Hills like walking shape. Like. I've been talking a lot of golf courses in San Francisco and there's a lot of hills and stuff, and that one had some intense hills, small property, and.

00:43:09
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of a lesson in how to take a small property that is severe too, where there's a lot of places where you might not be able to put golf holes and make a routing really work and not feel repetitive. I think that's the brilliant thing about the golf course. In addition to it having some really cool greens and individual holes.

00:43:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some stretches out there that are really, really really good.

00:43:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are the what are the top couple of things that you think they could It's the easy.

00:43:38
Speaker 1: Stuff, It's lines, trees, mountain lines. Green sizes could get bigger.

00:43:45
Speaker 3: Recapturing a few bunkers.

00:43:47
Speaker 1: Maybe greens could get slower on the stimp meter, because I think they run into the situation that you know, listen, like a lot of Mackenzie courses past the tempo has this problem. Crystal downs has this problem where they just you know, modern green speeds don't give them a lot of pins. And you know, I think that that's the thing is, like, you know, do you want Alistair Mackenzie greens or do you want fast greens? I would pick Alistir Mackenzie greens every day of the week. I don't think it's really a question, and I don't understand how that question actually goes the other way sometimes with softening of greens. But you know, that's the society we live in, where you're the memberships, the ego about you know, speed of greens is more important than you know, retaining contours. And this is not directed at green Hills because they haven't softened, you know, many of their greens. I think they've only done this softened one of them, which is still very very cool. This is more directed at it's.

00:44:49
Speaker 3: A widespread trends.

00:44:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of clubs across the country.

00:44:53
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that I think that scenario goes the other way sometimes because us maybe members don't haven't particularly looked into Alistair McKenzie.

00:45:05
Speaker 3: And or.

00:45:07
Speaker 1: Aw tilling has or And this is understandable.

00:45:10
Speaker 2: There are a lot of people who aren't nerds about golf course architecture, and so when they hear okay, Alistair mackenzie did these greens, it doesn't impress them like it might you and me, And that's just their different perspective. And so of course that is overwhelmed by the common sense notion. What has become a common sense notion that fast greens are better, and so often people will say, well, what can we do to make these greens fast? Well, we have to soften some of the contours. Okay, if that's what's necessary, go ahead. And there's not a sense of the pain of losing Alistair McKenzie greens, because if you don't know really what a Mackenzie green is then why would you care about it? So Greenhill's has a decision to make sometime in the next few years, I suppose about whether we're gonna have fast greens or whether we're gonna have McKenzie greens. It seems like things are leaning toward the Mackenzie end of the equation, which is really encouraging because I think green Hills will really surprise people by how cool it.

00:46:10
Speaker 1: Maybe one of those places that has like a very huge potential on the fun factor. Yeah, because you're there are a lot of dramatic shots and a lot of really great greens.

00:46:22
Speaker 3: It's a sporty golf course.

00:46:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's what the adjective is perfectly used at green Hills. Not a long golf course, but super fun and has has some very very dramatical So all right, a question from RLM. This is my dad, by the way, RLM on Twitter, and he asks a number of questions and I'll address a couple of them. He says, what are you currently reading? Three favorite golf books and why Foundation books for GCA Basic literacy must reads.

00:46:51
Speaker 3: For all golfers.

00:46:52
Speaker 2: I don't think we can do all of those, but I chose three favorites. I chose a couple of basic GCA things, and Andy can add in what he wants to add.

00:47:01
Speaker 1: Reader, I'm reading the Kurt Sampson Master's book. I haven't really read. I would say that I've been so busy that I haven't really been.

00:47:09
Speaker 3: Reading reading stuff on the internet.

00:47:12
Speaker 1: I do read a lot on the internet.

00:47:14
Speaker 2: That's kind of where where that's sort of the water we swim in working and at the Frida Egg. Right, we're not we're reading a lot of things on the internet. But books are, you know, I mean, I read plenty of books, but it's not it's not the es central part of what we're doing today.

00:47:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm also rereading the links. I've got like two books I'm rereading that. It's been that's been fun that book. In terms of a GCA book, a good beginner GCA book, you know, you obviously have Shackleford and Doaks books. Grounds for Golf and then An Anatomy of a Golf Course are two wonderful beginner books. But if you're looking for those, go into really detail, Like if you're looking for like a really great beginner book that's not really nitty gritty. I think The Links by Robert Hunter is a really good pick because you know, in the golf architecture writing, he also wraps like good stories in there.

00:48:13
Speaker 2: And he's a good writer. He did write kinds of writing other than golf. Fascinating figure Robert Hunter. He's big socialist.

00:48:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, Robert Hunter is such a great character.

00:48:23
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:48:23
Speaker 1: I mean you think about like he he was. He did some architecture here in northern California. Yeah, but he did architecture before Mackenzie, and then he must have met Mackenzie when he went over to the UK, which is where why he wrote the Links after he went there and then he came back and then he's the reason Mackenzie got to Northern California, which is you know, pretty good for golf golfers because you know, he designed some good stuff here. And but yeah, Robert Hunter is super interesting. The book is really good he wrote. Yeah, and like you said, he wrote some like really good other book. He wrote some good books on politics, you know in this time, like you know, Harold did political books also.

00:49:11
Speaker 2: I mean when you look back at some of these writers, artists, creative figures from the early twentieth century, people just seem to have had more time on their hands, and they didn't really, but there were fewer distractions and did spend more time reading and writing, which was definitely to their benefits.

00:49:31
Speaker 1: So they didn't have televisions.

00:49:33
Speaker 2: Yeah that's they didn't have computers and phones, and so Robert Hunter did a formidable amount of work, all right. So three favorites of mine favorite golf books. Bernard Darwin The Golf Courses of the British Isles maybe my favorite golf book of all time. Go get that one, or you can read it for free on the internet because it's outside of copyright. Kevin Robbins, The Last Stand of Payne Stewart, I think is a great modern book about PGA tour. It's not only about Paine Stewart's last days and kind of last stretch of golf leading up to his very tragic death in nineteen ninety nine, but it's also about everything that was changing about golf.

00:50:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a really transitional period.

00:50:14
Speaker 2: And Kevin Robbins is a great writer. Also has a terrific book about Harvey Penick, so so check that out. And another book that I choose is Why Golf called Why Golf by Bob Colin, who writes does a lot of the writing from Why It's Why, Okay, yeah, Why Golf question Mark Bob Colin.

00:50:38
Speaker 3: These are sort of off the wall picks.

00:50:39
Speaker 2: I wanted to mention Kevin Robbins and Bob Colin because they don't get chosen much in these lists.

00:50:44
Speaker 1: And really good golfer soul.

00:50:47
Speaker 2: No, no, we're not going to do chicken soup for the golfer soul.

00:50:50
Speaker 3: Hey is that a real book? I think so?

00:50:53
Speaker 2: Oh God, that's a great that's a great family golf gift. Well intentioned, but this is the mark, all right. So those are some favorites basic GCI books. I agree about the links. I think that would be a good place for a lot of people to start. If you're trying to get a kid into golf course architecture, somebody like a kid who's ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen years old.

00:51:17
Speaker 1: You're try and get ten eleven, twelve thirteen years This is when I was into it.

00:51:21
Speaker 2: That's when I got into it, all right, dad, My dad brought me this book. I'm about to mention when I was When I was ten, Is that is that too early for a lot of kids?

00:51:29
Speaker 1: I just I just I think these are goals.

00:51:33
Speaker 2: Is that annoyingly precocious about a high school kid, any kid who is like starting to get interested in golf courses. If they're catching the bug for golf courses, bring them the World Atlas of Golf. I would say, get an old edition of this book. The new editions are fine. The old editions are quite a bit better. I think have better writing in them, as well as just these sort of imagination capturing maps of golf courses, the great golf courses of the world. I think that book is a home run for young people who are starting to get into golf course architecture, and a great place to start. Andy already mentioned Shackleford's and Doakes books, which are the best modern introductions to golf course architecture for sure. And if you're looking at an Alistair McKenzie book, I don't think you go Spirit of Saint Andrews. I think you get the book called Golf Architecture. It's shorter, and it has basically all of the bits that people quote from the Spirit of Saint Andrews with a few exceptions, but a lot of Spirit of Saint Andrews is word for word reprinting of Golf Architecture, the book that he published during his lifetime in nineteen twenty and so I think that go for reach for that one first before you go for Spirit of Saint Andrews. All right, So that's answering my dad's question. Thank you dad.

00:52:47
Speaker 3: All right.

00:52:48
Speaker 2: Another question, well, we'll do a couple more. Here a question from Adam MG twenty seven on Instagram. I think these are related questions. How many projects is too many projects for an architect? Are big names starting to get there and with so much work? Who are young architects that you hope and think will get a big break? I think these questions are related in the sense that there are a few architects who are getting a lot of work, and then there are some really talented young golf architects who haven't yet gotten that next big project. So what are your thoughts on both or one of those questions?

00:53:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously there's so many projects that are happening, which is why architects are busier than they've ever been that in a long time, since basically the recession in two thousand and eight. You know, this is effectively the busiest the market's ever been because more golf courses are getting built. And one of the things that happened in two thousand and eight was there's a huge contraction in the golf architecture industry. You know, there's less people now that work it, and now with the the increased demand for golf courses, there's probably going to be there's almost like an architect shortage. I don't want to say that there's a lot of members of the s GCA, but there's a lot of there's might be an architect shortage of people that you know, somebody wants to hire to build their golf course.

00:54:20
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean that there are a lot of thriving you.

00:54:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot of but these are all architects who haven't gotten a shot, you know. And I think that's the hard thing. Everybody always wants to say, like, oh, take a chance, go take yeah. But at the same time, if you're if you're building a golf course and it's your first golf course, like a hard thing to do, especially if you can get you know, Tom or or Gill or Bill core Uh to design your golf course. Like you know, that's ay. Everybody always wants to always talks about how the taisers need to hire you know, a young guy again and that. But it's like, well, like you know, it's a pretty good recipe to hire. Like, you know, one of the things you do, like when you're when you think about it, like a lot of walks of life, is like you take a big chance so that later in life you can be more conservative, you know when it comes to like your career, right, people, people, everybody can relate to this, right, you take an take a big chance, so you that makes your career right. You know, you can follow like the general arc, or you can jump and do something and kind of accelerate your career in a weird way.

00:55:36
Speaker 2: When you're at the very beginning of a massive project like the band in Dunes Resort, you're more able to take a big chance on the first course than you would be on the fifth course.

00:55:46
Speaker 1: Well exactly, because like now, like if if it blows up in your face, everybody knows.

00:55:52
Speaker 3: Yep, there's a lot to lose. There's more to lose.

00:55:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you mess up on the first one, what I mean, oh, well, like that didn't work out. But yeah, I mean they're pretty deep into it. They're not going to be.

00:56:04
Speaker 1: And we're seeing architects get shots. We're seeing Andrew Greens getting is really busy, and with renovations and restorations.

00:56:14
Speaker 3: Mike Talking is starting to get some chances.

00:56:16
Speaker 1: Mike coing OGLV actually mead. They have obviously the Madna renovation, which is a huge project. They have a new build in Minneapolis or Minnesota, and they have another one in the US that hasn't been announced yet. I'm not going to announce it because news to announce. You know, uh, they're you know, you look at Kyle Franz and Keith reb and Riley Johns. They just got a big break to go do renovations at Cabot Citrus, the new Cabot resort in Florida. So like people are getting breaks and a lot of the architects are really busy. Like one of the things is like Bill and Ben don't do really renovation restoration anymore. Tom doesn't do renovation restoration. Brian Schneider is building old barnball, Kyle kai Goldby is building tree farm. Like this is like not a like when are young guys gonna get a chance? They're getting chances and the way it's not the question anymore, and and what's too many projects? Like to answer the I think like it depends on how your firm's set up.

00:57:28
Speaker 2: Right, Totally depends on how it's structured. Because people look at renaissance golf design, does Renaissance Renaissance golf design have too many projects? Well, you have to look at who's actually carrying out most of those projects, because the way that Tom Dope structures things often is that there will be projects that he is taking the lead on, but there are also Renaissance golf design projects that are headed up by other people in his organization.

00:57:53
Speaker 1: Eric Iverson, Brian Salonik, Brian Schneider, and god, I'm blanking, you know, Like those guys are all capable of building their own golf courses. And I think that's the thing is that these guys are getting opportunities. You know, Gil obviously is very very busy, right, but he's got Jim Wagner, and nobody ever talks about Jim Wagner.

00:58:16
Speaker 2: And yeah, and Jim Wagner is running a lot of it and heading up an organization of very talented construction people. And so that's also part of that organization and why they're able to take on so much work now, something that people don't know, and I'm not saying that, you know, gil Hans is really busy, and we will see what the quality of work is. That the proof will be in the pudding, and I expect the work to be high quality because it has been so far. But he's really busy right now. So we will see in a few years how these courses turn out. But one thing that people don't know about gil Hans is that he turns down a lot of work, right I think people underrate how much work Corn Crenshaw, Tom Doak and gil Hans turned down, and then they recommend other architects to take it up. And that's when those architects.

00:59:08
Speaker 1: They a lot of times they recommend younger architects, and younger architects get jobs, you know, And I think that's the thing, is that these architects are going to get time. But if there's only eight courses being built in a year or six like there have been in recent years, those people building those courses would be crazy not to hire Coren Crenshaw, Gil Hans, Tom Doak, Like it's just if you can hire those guys, why wouldn't you, Right, Yeah, I.

00:59:38
Speaker 3: Mean it's a super safe bet at this point. All right, So I.

00:59:41
Speaker 2: Wanted to do a last couple, last couple of questions here about Augusta National because we are officially in the run up to the twenty twenty two Masters. Drew c gus on Instagram asks you become architect at Augusta, what are the first three changes you make? I think they're kind of already being made, Like would have said, eleventh hole, restore creeks. Oh, yeah, especially near the eleventh green.

01:00:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, eleven, And I think you could just get them looking a little bit more. You look at the old pictures, right, So that would be number one. I mean maybe not number one. That'd be one of the things I would do. I'd get the bunker style back to Mackenzie. I would get rid of the.

01:00:30
Speaker 3: I mean the saucer flashed up bunkers.

01:00:33
Speaker 1: Like the they look like like vanilla ice cream scoops.

01:00:38
Speaker 2: And they've been really influential. A lot of courses strive for this look, and they're.

01:00:43
Speaker 1: Just such a departure from what it was like. That's what kind of gets me, is like you like to say you're Mackenzie course, but these bunkers bear no resemblance to the bunkers you put here. Yeah, and I don't think you know, so I would do that. I would just continue on which I think this year we're going to see I wrote an article last week about this but on the website, But we're going to see a lot more short grass, which is really encouraging. You're you know, right onto you're going to see a lot of more short grass on nine and ten.

01:01:24
Speaker 2: In short grass, not only around the greens, but recently there's been rough that has stopped balls from rolling out to a worse position when they've been hit down a hill where players are being asked to kind of keep the ball up on the hill, and the rough has served as a bumper. Yeah, a bumper like in bumper bowling.

01:01:44
Speaker 3: Yeah.

01:01:44
Speaker 1: And I think the eleventh obviously, that's going to be a great change. I think I think that that.

01:01:49
Speaker 2: Whole fairway took out a lot of trees on the right side. Yeah, no more kiddy literality.

01:01:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're gonna have like actually like a preferred angle and a and a less preferred angle as opposed to you know, one place to hit it, So that that's gonna be good. And they did some work around the greens. They lowered down that chipping area on the right. That makes that chip from the right a little bit more dicey than in years past. So that I really like that change. Like, if I was gonna do a whole next, I'd zero in on the seventh, which went from like a drive and pitch really cool short par four to now a brutal, brutally long par four that's like a bowling alley narrow, yeah, just with artificial tree, like just tree planting to narrow and you know, effectively like you know, manipulate an outcome. So and I think that one's a big glaring next. But if you know bunkers and creaks, like if you did the bunkers and the creeks like you did, the visual aesthetic would just be off the charts out.

01:02:52
Speaker 2: There, bunkers and creeks, And then I think you'd have to do more in order to tie it all in. And that's the problem is that you can't just take those bunkers back to the Mackenzie style and not do anything else because suddenly the bunkers, Yeah, the bunkers would look out of place because the whole deal there right now is this perfection, this absolutely kind of burnished, shiny, you know, veneer on the course. That's on everything, including the bunkers. So if you take the bunkers back to a more rugged style, then you start having to look at not only creek creeks, the way the creeks are, but the way the whole course is presented.

01:03:36
Speaker 1: Ye, and and.

01:03:38
Speaker 3: That's the issue.

01:03:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, these these incredibly well curated flower beds. The whole way that the course is presented, from the bunkers to every single other thing is of a piece. Right now, it's at least coherent. Now, it's not definitely not my favorite esthetic. It's not in keeping with what was intended there Byobby Jones and Alistair mackenzie.

01:04:02
Speaker 3: Though it's questionable.

01:04:04
Speaker 2: You know, Bobby Jones lived a while longer and certainly seemed to be involved in a lot of the changes that happened. In any case, it would be great to see it go back to that style.

01:04:13
Speaker 1: I think it'd be great to see the Cliff Roberts Eighth Green come back.

01:04:21
Speaker 2: It's gonna be a lot of people who don't know what you're talking about, but yeah, Cliff Roberts at one point destroyed the Eighth Green complex and put in a flat saucer green that's like hilariously bad. Yeah, so definitely bring that back as well. Last question from Ryan Esmond is Augusta an extremely overrated course. Would it be highly ranked if it was public?

01:04:50
Speaker 1: I think yeah, it hosts a championship every year, it's going to be highly ranked no matter if it's public or private. I think that that is possibly the best golf course in the in the world is But it's not that today. I've walked it. I've watched a lot of golf be played on TV. I've walked it only twice.

01:05:18
Speaker 3: So you know, take it with a grain of salt.

01:05:21
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be there all week this year, so that's that's exciting. Now I'll get to be much more familiar with it, you know, from like an on the ground standpoint. But it's i mean, like, what are these rankings are so fucking silly, you know, like, oh, it's the eighth best course, Well, what's the ninth best course? Like, oh, it's that? You know what, Today I'm going to write down my ten favorite courses. Then tomorrow they might be a little bit different.

01:05:51
Speaker 3: You know.

01:05:52
Speaker 1: The ranking courses is just absolutely asinine and then you start to like look into these numbers, like you look into a who's rating the courses? Is you got a bunch of like you know, you got a bunch of guys that just like golf. Like you know, there's you know, I'm not saying I this is all just a mixture. It's a melting pot of taste. Right.

01:06:12
Speaker 3: It's not as authoritative as it presents itself.

01:06:15
Speaker 1: No, No, it's like it's just an absurd thing. Like you know, I've been become over the years pretty intimate with all the all the ranking systems and you know, having conversations with people at those organizations. But like, you know, here's the thing is, like you know, the whole thing of ranking courses are trivial? Is Augusta overrated? Like you know, I would put it in the top class of golf courses. They're in the top bucket, you know, in the state it is today, you know, it would be a lot better, It'd be nearer the top of the top bucket if it was you know, if it was presented a little bit more away from you know, here, here's the other thing, Like what's the purpose of Augusta national right? Is the purpose of it to be the best golf course it can be for members? Is the purpose of it to be the best tournament golf course it can be for tournaments? Like That's the other thing, like how are we judging it right? Like and I think you know, the way we view the lens of Augusta National for ninety nine point nine percent of the of golfing public is like, this is where they play the Master's my favorite golf tournament every year. And for that matter, I think it does its purpose pretty well. Now for the point zero zero one percent of the population that cares and might be able to go play it in their lifetime, you know, it's probably not doing the best service as a golf course for the golfing public.

01:07:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is its purpose? I mean, certainly to host the Masters that that is what they're really focused on, and maybe that that purpose is widening a little bit under Fred Ridley's leadership. He seems to be more interested in doing things like the Augusta National Women's Amateur and kind of reaching out in ways that the club hasn't necessarily done in the past, or at least hasn't publicized much in the past, And so it's hard to say exactly what its purpose should be. But focusing on the Masters is a big deal there, and it does a great job of hosting the Masters. I think it should also have a good influence on it should recognize its influence on golf courses that you could do a better job in that respect.

01:08:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, And here's the thing. What this this overrated question drives me insane? What what is overrated?

01:08:47
Speaker 3: You used to have a segment on this podcast called overrated, I know.

01:08:51
Speaker 1: But like with Augusta, like what's over like Okay, well, I don't know what it is. It's like about eight. Maybe it is.

01:08:59
Speaker 2: In fall in a little bit on the golf dot Com rankings under.

01:09:04
Speaker 1: So if it was eighteen, does that mean it's overrated at eight?

01:09:11
Speaker 3: Yeah.

01:09:12
Speaker 2: You've often talked about buckets, Yeah, Augusta top bucket.

01:09:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's in the bottom part of the top bucket in the current state.

01:09:20
Speaker 3: Okay, So yeah, in that sense, if I'm.

01:09:25
Speaker 1: Saying top bucket, you're talking about like eight to fifteen golf courses in the top bucket in the US.

01:09:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.

01:09:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, But again you come back to the question of purpose and what it's being rated for, because if you're saying what's the course that does the best job of fulfilling the purpose of being a public golf course. It's really great to play for a wide variety of people and serves its community in a really direct way. Then you're talking about a completely different set of courses that don't.

01:09:58
Speaker 3: Make the rankings.

01:10:00
Speaker 2: And and I think that that's where the rankings fall so short, is that there is an assumed invisible purpose that all these courses are striving towards, but we're not quite sure what it is. What are these courses the best at because they're certainly not you know, the courses that do well in these rankings certainly aren't the best at everything that a golf course can do. There are other golf courses that do certain things a lot better. And so yeah, that's that's always been my issue with the rankings too.

01:10:28
Speaker 1: It's it's just golf digest a joke.

01:10:33
Speaker 3: When we talk about rankings.

01:10:34
Speaker 1: Podcast profit engine is what it is. It's they make They generate millions of dollars every year on their rankings. Golf Week makes money through their trips. Now like I you know, and you know, there was golf dot Com has gotten cleaned up a lot under ran Morris sept But there was a time when golf dot com was selling spots in its ranking, So like these rank that drive decisions by clubs across the world are the silliest, silliest things to drive decisions off of.

01:11:10
Speaker 3: On that note, thank you Andy, it's been a delight.

01:11:25
Speaker 2: This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast was edited by Meg Atkins.

01:11:29
Speaker 3: Thank you Meg.

01:11:31
Speaker 2: One quick note, This coming Monday, March twenty first is registration day for our event at Prairie Dunes Country Club. The event is called the Scraper and you can get more information about it on the Friday dot com and on our event page at golf Genius. Event sign ups will be on golf Genius as well, and they will open up at noon Eastern time on Monday, March twenty first. Hope to see you out there at Prairie Dune's and thanks for listening.