#353 - Famous Failures: Shay of Dan + Shay on His First Deal Being A Bust + Luke Combs Told He'd Never Make It + Jason Aldean Dropped from First Label + More!

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Speaker 1: Welcome to episode three. This is awesome. It's about famous failures, you know. So we've had a lot of major artists, a lot of massive songwriters come in and talk about Man, this is a time where some failure happened and they thought it sucked for their career, but actually it helped them in the long run, you know, from getting dropp from record labels and publishing deals to people that just told them, hey, as an artist, we don't think you have what it takes. Obviously, people are all massively successful now, so it's a reminder that you can win by losing, That's right. So boom Mike, what's your biggest musical failure? Your punk? Your punk band? Probably my punk band, Yeah, I mean we moved to Austin, Texas to try to make it. We tour Texas and bunch but never quite got there. And how did that make you better? Uh? It taught me that even though you suck, if you find fun in it, it's still worth it. I was gonna say, I talk, you know, to get a punk band anymore. There's no money in punk rock. Yeah, but that was tough on Yeah, not no nothing. I don't think we made maybe more than like two bucks the entire time as a band. Oh, that's pretty good if you don't really have if you can make twohundred bucks a night, and it's not good, but I'm saying that's pretty good. If you can make a little money being a punk band. Back, that's that's just nobody's gonna pay for that, huh. And it's a tough little niche. Even if you are pretty big as a punk band, you're still Yeah, even the biggest punk bands don't make as much as you would think. Um. Once, I'll give you a musical failure. Once, I was doing a show in spring Filled, Missouri at a theater there, and I had been contacted by a family said hey, mom, she know she staged four cancer, but she wants to come to the show and she'd love to meet you. And I was like, well, hey, I can't believe she want to come to the show. I believe they said she was staged four and it was her bucket list item to meet me. And I was like, dang, she had a cooler bucket. But you know what, I can actually make that happen. Such caam and I called her up on stage, I met her before the show. Then I called her up on stage because she was just a big fan, and so I was like, hey, why don't you in the crowds? Yeah, turn for and I thought, well, let's just play a song up here and I'll do a little dance with her. And I said, hey, just play this song that's on that's next step, the next love song on the list, and it was ain't No Sunshine when She's Gone. Oh yeah, it was tough. We started. I was like, it goes. I think Eddie or Brandon or somebody was singing it, and it's they ain't no sun Sha when She's Gone. And I'm like, oh my god, not this song and anything for this song, and I'm like trying to hey, go faster, go faster. It's not wish. She's with like, oh god, this does not feel good with somebody who told me the so that and then I reached out after I was like, I'm so sorry. They're like, no, it was awesome, and I guess they just didn't associate it with what I associated it with and they were just happy. In the moment. I was like, you know, what's gone. The whole time, I'm like, oh, this is gone viral for sure. So yeah, that's a pretty that's a pretty bad one. Then all right, here we go, it's Bobby Cast with famous failures. We're gonna kick it off with Shane Mooney from Dan and Shay on how getting out of his first deal led him to me Dan informing Dan and Shape, here you go, you go to college for a year, right, yeah, and then you go, I'm gonna go I need to go to do music. Yea. What was the point in going to school? Where it clicked? Was like, it's gonna be tough, but I gotta get out of school. And I actually it wasn't even a real it wasn't actually a school. It was actually a ministry school. So I went there. It was like a nine month program and I had a full ride to go to like a music school. And I decided right before because my sister Gabby had decided she was going to go up to Pittsburgh to go to this like nine month you know, program, and I was just like, I kind of wanna, I'm gonna go with you. I'm gonna do this. And it was kind of that I wasn't quite sure what I was gonna do with my life. I was about to graduate and I didn't want to go to school for something that I already felt like I was. I didn't think I was gonna like learn and if I was going for like engineering or something like that, which is probably what I would have done, I just I didn't want to go to school for like performance major, you know, and like learn how to sing. I just felt like that wasn't really the vibe. And so yeah, I kind of took that that nine months and lived in Pittsburgh. Um, and then right after that I moved back home, which is when kind of the whole tea pain thing happened. Which is an interesting thing too, because when you can really sing, you can also kind of pick where you sing. Yeah. Even I give Garth as an example, he was singing rock songs. Yeah, he was, you know, he was kind of finding his place early. Um. So, how do you get discovered by because what was it called? What was t paint? It was called nappy boy, nappy boy? How do you get hooked up with them? How do they see you? What are the steps that led you to go there? Because did you move to Atlanta for a while? I did move to Atlanta, So I was so I lived in Pittsburgh and my sister was she had this uh she was super good. She a good dancer, like she was a choreographer and Dylla's stuff and she was had met this guy named Mike who was actually a backup dancer for Tea Pain, and so we kind of all were hanging out there for a little while. And um, long story short, we get back to Arkansas after you know, the school, after the nine months, and we're there and I just randomly get like a text, was like, Hey, what are you doing. I knew he had worked with Ta Pain and I guess he had sent some YouTube video online to Tea Pain. And I was and I was at Van Buren actually, and I was in a movie. I'll never forget this, and I like he was like, hey, like he wants to like, you know, FaceTime you or whatever. And I was just like I was in this movie and I didn't have any service and I was like, I was like, this is the craziest thing ever. So I go out of the movie and my friend was like the managers watching and was watching the movie. Did you think he was? Like? I thought he was like Arkansas heard of this movie. It's called hot Rod. It was like this little project I was working on. So you leave the theater? Yeah, so I leave it. So I walked outside and I didn't have any WiFi and the service wasn't good enough, so I had to get on WiFi. I think it was a FaceTime call. I can't remember if that was even a thing then, but either way, I didn't have any service. I had to like go get on the WiFi. So my friend was the manager there and like gave me the WiFi pass for I'm in like this back room at the movie theater like face timing or whatever. Te Pain and he was like, hey, I want you to come to Memphis, like we're playing a show. There was him and Chris Brown. I want you to come, you know, play with us and and do this whole deal. So I was just like, yeah, all right, let's just do this whole deal. Mean, I didn't have no idea. To this day, I don't know what that meant. You know, those moments like you get the call and you're just like, yeah, whatever it is, I'm down. And that got me into a lot of trouble probably at some points in my life. Like whatever that is, I'm doing it. So do you go to Memphis? I did I went to Memphis and arrive by yourself, but because you don't know what's happening, like, oh, that's crazy. Whober actually was not a thing that I guess, but my sister Gabby, she she drove me up there, so I drove up there with her. We went to the show and met with him and basically go on the bus afterwards, and I think it was like Tea Pain and his wife and and Mike and all these people, and I'm just like singing, and just he was like, I want to I wanna sign you, you know. And I didn't know what that I just heard, you know, I'm gonna sign you. I didn't know what that entailed at the time or what that even you know, looked like. But yeah, they ended up, you know, because I was writing even when I was with him. When I end up signing to him, I moved to Roswell, Georgia, which is out there, you know, just a suburb of Atlanta, and I started writing all kinds of stuff. I mean, I had been writing like country, and I've been writing pop and been writing like R and B, like all this kind of stuff. But I knew that I wanted to do country and that's what. That's kind of how he the song that he had even heard me covering, um, I think was a country song, and so he was like, you know, this is what I want you to do. This is oh Blood. And basically what I did for those that year and a half that I lived in Atlanta was just going too the studio every day until like five in the morning and just like right two beats and and everything else. And it was just kind of a I don't know, it's kind of one of those just kind of honing my craft moments of like I didn't really get anywhere, Like there wasn't we didn't release any music or anything like that. Um, what was his goal with you? I don't know, I'm not sure. Uh, the the overall goal, you know that was kind of like pitch to me, was we want to sign you to a major you know, I want to get you to Nashville at some point. But so there was country music in mind for you, even though it was tea pain yeah, and we all go, oh, hip hop R and B yeah, And it was kind of one of those things that I didn't even have like my sound. I didn't really know what I was doing either. I was just writing songs, and I had all these you know songs that I was writing that wasn't necessarily I mean, they were like fine, but it just it had my identity was not found yet. You know. I just didn't really know what I was doing. So it's kind of somewhere in there. Um it's hard to put unless I looked at the timeline. It's hard to put all this stuff into a timeline. Um. But I remember there was a moment when I was there where I was just like, what, we haven't put out any music. We're not doing anything. I have no idea. There was not really The contract I signed was a three sixty and I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have a lawyer at the time, so I signed this ridiculous deal. Um. And I think it was all good intentions on all parties, but I ended up at some point being like I've got to go to Nashville, Like I just had to get there. So I was getting I mean, I had no money because I was getting paid, you know, whatever it was. I think I think I was getting paid maybe like it was like fifteen hundred dollars for two thousand or fifteen hundred dollars for like, you know, per month to like live on and stuff. But I was having to pay like five dollars for my you know, my rent in Atlanta, and then I had to pay five off the top to like my manager that was you know, this guy that had had you know, I had met in Pittsburgh. He was now my my manager, and uh so it was a whole thing. So I had about after I was moving to Nashville. I was left with about like four hundred dollars to like eat, like pay everything on after this and go out and expect, like, you know, try to meet people in Nashville, which four hundred dollars in a month is not a lot of not a lot of spending cash. How did you get out of the deal? Um? It ended up? You know when I met Dan, uh it was a whole I mean there was a lot of people that that kind of helped me get that out of the deal. And you know, whenever we had we had met, it became kind of like a man, what's what's going to happen because this is this is like a problem. I'm still in this this deal. Yeah yeah, but it was, Yeah, that that whole that was a pretty rough a little time there for a little while because it was a lot of there was a lot of feelings, you know, feelings hurt on I think on all sides because it was just this I don't know, I want to go I don't want to go like two into detail about it. But it was a rough time I think in his life. He was he was going through a lot, and it was just kind of I was just stuck. There was nobody to like talk to. He had he had gone away to kind of deal with some personal stuff, and yeah, it was just kind of all right, well I'm in this deal and we got to try to figure out whenever we were talking to these labels, it was like it kind of became an issue because it rolled really fast. When Dan and I met and we had kind of met with you know, Jason Owen and Scooter and things were kind of rolling. It was just like, well, this is this is a problem. And I was like I was freaking out because I'm like, this is a huge opportunity. And we finally got something or to something yeah that you can't get out of. Yeah, And it was full three sixty deal. You know, it was everything you're doing, have a piece of not just music, but if you put out a shirt, if you touring everything, all of it, and it was yeah, it was a rough time, but we ended up you know really, you know, Scooter and Jason had a huge part of of kind of getting me out of that deal. And yeah, man, it was it was a tough you know start, you know, because it was just even on that first record, like there was a lot being being taken out, you know, and it was just kind of like thankfully I didn't have, you know, a family at that time or no, you know, it's not like I was. I wasn't completely broke. Whenever we had you know, Dan and I had met and and finally signed. You know, we had like a lot more money than I had enough to begin with us. It was enough to live on. But they did a great job of kind of helping me get out of that, and you know, Warner Brothers and ESPO and all those guys. It was, Yeah, everybody's really good. So so the legend of the fort, which in different places we've talked about, but you guys met in the living room for at a house which you've been back by. I've even seen you posted before. Um Dan was living in that house and you went over to the house. I did, so I was living on I was living with my buddy actually at the time, Um I had I was, I was, I think I was maybe I don't even remember how if I even was paying him, but I was basically sleeping on his couch for like a little while. His name was Brandon Metcalf, great guy, and he had a studio and I was like working a lot with him when I had moved to Nashville and kind of had my place, and um, there was a guy named Andrew Um that just one night we had been writing a lot and he told me he was like, man, I'm going over to these guys house. They had a band at the time. He's like, they're having a house party. You know, you want to come with me? And I was just like, yeah, sure, let's do it. And at that time, it was just kind of like any time you could go somewhere without spending any money. And he knew that there was like we knew that there was a keg and I was like aishment that's always chased was like, do you think they got like pizza or someone like I haven't even like a couple of days. But it was like, yeah, showed up at this house, and little did I know that that night was going to completely change my life. You guys start talking that night. When was it that you said, Okay, we're actually going to try something together, which means putting everything else aside. There's a difference in going, hey, we should do something together and going we're doing something together. I would even say it's comparable to in that part of a relationship where you're just dating and you go, we're only dating each other now, yeah, so that means nothing else can exist except us. What was that point where you guys finally said we're just dating each other? Well, it was not until just a couple of weeks ago. We Uh, it kind of happened. It happened really naturally where Dan I started writing. Really, I think it was either that next day or like the day after that. We had met. We were jam until probably like four in the morning or something like that, and I think we decided to write. So we get up the next day and we go we met it like a Starbucks or something, and then we ended up going to uh, this this guy that I was, Jesse Fraser. I'm sure that on this show. I know he's been here, love him. One of the greatest guys. When I had for quick side side notes, this all makes sense Jesse. When I had first moved to town, I had a friend and I asked him. I was like, who is doing like beats? Because I have been writing to a lot of beats. I've been writing like country songs two beats, which is now like a common thing, but it was just kind of becoming a thing then. And I was like, who is a great track guy in in Nashville. And the first name that he's that my friend is nash Over Street, which is paulver Street songwriter. Uh. And he was like Jesse Fraser. So I started writing with Jesse um a lot. And then whenever Dan and I had met, I was like, let's go right with with you know, with Jesse Fraser or at at his place. So we ended up writing our first writing session. I think we wrote two songs that that day and one of them got put on hold that night. But for Rascal Flats, So what you wrote a song that day? Yea, they sent it out maybe too Flats because they thought it's this it was sensible for them. That night he got put on hold. I think it was that night. Yeah, Like when we got home they were like this is on hold for Flats and for us were like things, things are heating up, things are really really good at which, if you know, you know what a hold is when they never cut the song or anything like that. But for us, it was just like it was legitimately like Rascal Flats heard our song. That was a huge and as small as that you know, might seem now, you know, in our minds, it still it was such a big deal because it was you know, you have these big dreams when you're coming to town, and it was kind of that first taste of like whoa this is like somebody who's who has done it, who is a successful artist, has they liked our song and put on hold. So that was a huge deal for us, and that was kind of the fuel to be like we should let's let's you know, keep doing this because we liked, you know, what songs are writing. Would you compare that early part of you and Dan And I don't mean this spacetiously at all, but when you meet a girl, like when you and Hannah meet and you're like, oh my god, this is it, Like it's similar to that feeling with him as it was because if you're rand of four in the morning, that's what you do when you talk to all to four in the morning. Yeah, I mean, I don't think for either of us, we just were kind of it wasn't It was different than when I met my wife, because when I met Hannah, I literally told my friend Benji Davis is a writer in town. He I told him, like right then. It was in Arkansas. It's like our first date. It was at George's Majestic Lounge, and I like walked her out to her car and I got back on the bus and I was like, I'm gonna marry that girl, literally said like that night. But Dan, it was like we were having fun writing these songs. We didn't necessarily like we thought they were good, but we didn't necessarily be like we're gonna make this is We're not gonna or or marry each other. But not neither one of those were on my mind. And I think it just kind of happened naturally to where like we thought the songs were good, but as you do, you know when it's when it's your work. We thought it was good and it we knew I think the most exciting thing for us was there was an aha moment, but it wasn't necessary like oh, we're gonna be a duo. It was like, this is the kind of music that I've been trying to write. This is all like everything is kind of led to this, you know. It was like the stuff that I had been wanting to write but just couldn't hadn't quite found the sound yet. So are you saying that when you two first started it was like we found partners in creating more so than we could go be a duo. It was exactly that. It was like, oh man, this is like this is the kind of stuff. It was like better than any of the stuff that I had been writing in town. And I think for both of us it was just kind of like, well, this is like we we got something special here. So then how long until you decide you're going to actually pursue the artist thing together? Yeah, So we started to all these songs we've been writing, because we we did start to write a lot together, and so the more that we wrote, we would just start doing like these writers rounds and like playing these songs for our friends, and like our friends and everybody were getting hype on these songs like this is the greatest song, like we were doing when we were in five oh seven. Morton Avenue was the place. I can say it because we've said it a million times. I'm sure that the owner of that house hates us for probably talking about all the time. Um, but it was like I think we would go to that. We went to the house one time I specifically remember, and I think it was Pete Tracy, who now does all of our video stuff. It was his birthday and we remember we shot like a fake music video for one of the songs because we love it was so good and it was just like it was just ridiculousness. We were having so much fun and it was just like, man, this this stuff is really cool. So we started to play all the all the music out like rounds and stuff, and then Dan and I we had eventually like there was actually an opportunity that we had to go down Um and I had booked a show. It was just like Shale Mooney and we were opening up. We did two shows together without actually being like a band at all. It was just like he was there with me and we were playing all the songs we had written and one was at Georgia's opening for Chris Allen and I thought that we I thought I made it. Then I was like this is you know, things are really starting to take off. And then another one we played was that in Conway um at at u c A. There was this kid who booked me and I thought it was gonna be like the biggest show ever. And I think this. It was in there like little performing arts theater which probably holds like, I don't know, maybe people, and there was probably fifteen people in there. And uh, right after that, we went down to Austin, Texas because my lawyer had set up this like showcase basically for us, and we went down. We put together a band, the whole deal. Then I drive down on my truck and we ended up playing the show and it was I'm not kidding, there was There was honestly probably like four people in the room, and one was my lawyer, one was like a bartender girl in the back, and then our friend Paul di Giovanni, which ended up writing how Not To for us used to be in the band Boys Like Girls. He was there, and then Dan's lawyer and there was like no other people there. We rehearsed for like four days, and we were we thought it was gonna be like our big break, and uh yeah, it wasn't our big break, but at that time it was. I think on the way back from that trip, we kind of made the decision of, like we've been doing these shows together, like we should, we should kind of we should do a duo. And I think it's hard to kind of put all this in my mind to like line it up, but kind of when we were writing all these songs, um, there was a guy who had who knew he worked for Scooter Brun at the time. His name was Nano and he knew Scooter and he had kind of been talking to to Scooter, I guess about us, and uh yeah, during that time, Scooter ends up we're at a writing session and uh we had kind of decided like, all right, we're gonna do this this duo thing, and uh, once we kind of decided that was when Scooter had heard about us, and we were in a writing session at a guy named Danny Orton's house and there was he faced times us and basically says like I wanna work with you, and uh Ed Sharon was was there, which is really funny because he was like, will you guys play that song that I like? It was a song called stop Dropping Roll that was actually on our first record. We had like just written it and he was like, play that song. So we we played it and at the end he was like, my friend wants to hear the song because he really loves it because we had sent him maybe like a demo or something, and Ed Sharon like pops in and say, hey, guys, how are you. This is like the worst Edhering impression. Hey guys, how are you? And he yeah, we like saying stop Dropping Roll acoustic like overface time to him, and that was kind of the start of it. Okay, so here we go. Here's Luke Combs on the guy who told him he'd never be an artist at he performed for this guy. And pretty cool story because obviously Luccomb's biggest thing cuting music right now. The tweet you posted where you said, I think the topic was tell me something about yourself that no one'll believe. And the gest of it was that you came to town and you had some songs and people were like, hey, they weren't good, and your old thing was don't let anyone let you stop chasing your dreams. Yeah, those meetings where you were rejected, are they vivid to you? The early meetings definitely. Um. The one in the meeting in particular was with somebody. It was, you know, they have like the artist like writer reps at like b M I. So I had a friend that had a rep there, and I went in and I was like very excited because I had just moved to Nashville at this time and I didn't know anybody, you know, I knew a couple of writing buddies and was going out and playing a few writers rounds and writing songs every day, and because by that time, I was living off of those songs that I had put out the previous year. And I went in and it was kind of like this this person was like, we'll play me three songs. And I was like, oh cool, Like this person is gonna be like I'm gonna play these three songs and like they're gonna walk me into the best publishing thing and they're gonna like this guy is great, Like how could you not love this guy? Give him a publishing deal? So I played Hurricane when It Rains in one number away, which were my first three number ones, and they were like, Okay, here's the deal. You gotta get better a songwright, and you gotta write better songs and you're never gonna be an artist. So that's it. And I was like, and I wasn't like mad, do you know who said it? Yeah, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say I would never ask you to say it, but I'm just asking if you know who's that? Oh? I know? Yeah? Have you seen them since? Yeah? I've ran into them awkwardly at actually the b of my awards. Do you think they remember telling you that? Or do you don't get someone that was coming through anyto this time? I don't think so at all, which is fine, you know I have. I have nothing against that person, you know what, because I get it. Man. I mean it's it's like, if you look at it, would I would. I would equate it to at that level, you know, because you're not even screened at all. At that level, like any Tom Dick or Harry can walk in off the street pretty much to be a my and get one of those meetings. So I can't imagine the pressure of like, Okay, well, I've got six kids, that moved to town yesterday that want to come in and they all think they're awesome, and I've got to be able to figure out which ones I think are good enough to go on to the next thing. And so I wasn't mad about it at all. I'm actually very thankful for that meeting because I did go out and feel like I wrote some of the best songs that I had ever written, because I was like, man, I gotta I gotta write more and do better, Like I'm not even close to as good as I need to be. And so I just kept my head down and I went and wrote a ton of songs, and and then there is kind of the rest is just kind of fell into place. I mean, I know that's, you know, summarizing a big chain of events, but that's kind of how it felt like. At a few minutes left her, I wanted to run a couple of other things about you that I heard. First of all, a lot of folks come in, myself included that worked retail because we kind of had to. You gotta pay the bills somehow as you're chasing your creative endeavor. And I worked at hobby lobby. Mike, who was in Michael Hobby from Thousand Horses worked at the Buckle. You worked at isod. How did that go? I was not a great fit at iod Um, but I had you know, I had as much fun with it as you could possibly have folding people's golf sweaters, you know. Um. It was in an outlet mall, like one of those like Tanger outlets or whatever they call it. They had one in Blowing Rock, which is right down the road from Boone. So it was I mean, it was pretty pretty miserable. And how long did you do that? I probably worked there for I mean close to a year probably, I would think. And whenever you are walking past a table of shirts that are messy, does it bother you? And will you refold a shirt? No chance? No, no chance. But I'll tell you what I do. I do fold a mean shirt, you know, when I'm when I'm doing the laundry at home, which I'm sure people are supposed to do do laundry. My fiance does handle the brunt of the laundry, um, but I do. I do chip in quite a bit and you know, help fold stuff. And you know, I'm not I'm not afraid to do laundry. I I don't. I don't mind it at all, but or I if I wasn't in a committed relationship, I would throw it. Yeah, but I do separate it now just because that's what. But now it's like her stuff's in there, which is the thing? Like mine are just old, like gross t shirts and jeans really, so I'm not too worried about them like shrinking or like. But now there's this whole like don't wash this thing with that thing, and don't dry this thing, but it's gotta be tumble dried, but don't put it in with this thing that has to be high heat. And then some stuff is like cold water. And so it's I mean, it gets pretty matthey to me, you know. And I don't left school because he didn't even take laundry. That was like year three, and that was year three and I skipped laundry class, that's for sure. The bank bag, I'm curious about the used to save money in. So you went and bought one of those bank bags. It zips like it with the lock on it. Yeah, so what was that about? And and where was this money coming from? You were sticking in the bag, So I had I had started playing shows. And when Cappy moved to town after he started managing me, he had never managed anybody before. Um, you know, he kind of blew through his life savings like trying to build my career and and so he made a promise to me. He was like, hey, man, I'm not gonna take a commission until you're actually making enough money too, like live off of And so at the time, you know, the gigs were I mean, they could have been tud fifty dollars a night, they could have been a thousand dollars a night, and those were a thousand dollars was really good, you know. And so we would go and do those gigs and excuse me, I would take you know, t shirt money, whatever was left over. And and Cappy was great because he would always go settle the show. You know, he would run me through the statement every night and day. Here's what we got, and here's what we did, and here's the tickets and this, and and there were always we were and we were selling out everything, you know at that time, which is great on those club gigs because usually they they'll they'll kick you back a pretty like sweet bonus and it's always cash. And so That's where the money was coming from, was that these sellout bonuses on these club shows, and so I would I was like, I remember getting to thinking I had like five or six thousand dollars in my apartment, you know, and I was like, man, like, somebody just walk in here and like at this if they wanted to. So I had like a Folger's can, and instead of putting just the money in there, I put it in the bank bag and then rolled the bank back up and put it in there. It's a back like behind my microwave on my counter. My microwave kind of sat like in a corner, so it was kind of there was that space behind it, yeah, because it was diagonal. Yeah, And so that's what that's what that's where the money was coming from. And that's what I did with it at that time. All Right, here's one with Jason al Dean and we was talking to Jason about this and this is him now because he didn't feel like this back in the day, but this is him now being glad his first record deal did not work out. You know. I mentioned all the number ones and all the success and awards, but I think and if someone just was introduced to you, you are Jason al Dean, the country superstar. But you know, I talk a lot and have written an entire book on failure and how important it is to learn, Like if you look at your professional career and you look back at a failure that actually made you a better entertainer, a better performer, I any of that, Like what was that thing that didn't work out? Or you're like, man, I'm kind of glad they didn't work out because I learned from it. Um. I would say when when I got dropped from Capitol Records early on, I got signed to Capitol Records and about two thousand I think it was, and uh, I was on the label for a year, never even recorded one song for him, and uh, and got dropped from the label. And and so that was tough. Man. It was like I'd spent you know, I mean, that was the brass ring, That's what I was after. And to finally get that and to not even really get a chance to prove myself before I got dropped was just I don't know, it did a lot. It was like it was sad, but it also like kind of pissed me off a little bit. And Uh, to me, that was the thing that made me like really want to go out and and kind of proved myself and and um, and that's why when I got my next record deal offer, it was from both Broken Boat Records, which was a little independent label. Um really didn't even have any superstars. I mean, Craig Morgan was over there and was having some some just starting to have a couple of hits. I think Sharie Austin was over there at the time and had a hit or two, but they really didn't have a whole lot going on. And so, um, you know, I signed over there with no clue how that was gonna work out, but at least it was somebody willing to give me an opportunity. And and I think for a long time I sort of carried that chip on my shoulder to to go out and really want to prove myself. So I would I would say that was the main thing. Why would you be signed? And I understand why you would get dropped if you had put out a single that didn't do well or you, but why would they sign you and then drop you before giving you a legitimate chance? Well, so I signed over there. Um. The head of the label was was a guy named Pat Quigley, and so when when they signed me, and so literally before I could sign my deal, um, the new president came in, which is Mike Dungan who who was there now And I have since talked to Mike. We were great, like I love Mike, but he came in and I just don't really think he got it. I don't think he was a believer in in what I was doing at that time, and um, and so I think he wouent ahead and signed the deal, but I don't think he was ever really a believer in it. And so ultimately it just kind of fizzled out and went away. When you came to town though, that was a bit of a jolt to the system. And you know, I didn't why not much small level like I understand that because when I came here and people are like, what is this, I don't understand it. It ain't gonna and I kind of had to beat it into submission. And here you were. You look different, you sounded different. There's a little more of an edge. Did you get a lot of that? Like, I just don't get it. Yeah, I mean I go back and listen to some of the stuff we were doing early on, and and as edgy as I thought it was at the time, I listened to it now and I'm like, this, really it really wasn't. But at the time it was, and so um, you know, I think that was a little bit of that. I mean, we were we were different than anything else that was out the time and and so um. But I think the best thing could happen to me was like, I didn't I didn't really know the rules, Like, you know, I didn't know there there were rules. I didn't know you couldn't remember having ear rings and that being a huge thing, ear rings and a cowboy hat. And I'm like, really, I've had these since those seventeen years old. Like it wasn't a big a deal for me. But um, if you don't know the rules, you don't play by Yeah, And so to me, it was just like, you know, it just kind of went went along business as usual. And uh, I don't think we really knew at the time that what we were doing was kind of, you know, changing the game a little bit. With you having your own label now and night Train Records, I would assume all of that that you've learned along the way, both failures and successes. Uh, like has made you a better head of a label. Yeah, I mean I think so. I mean, I think it's just experience, you know. I mean it's it's guys. I mean, with with other artists that we have, um, just having them be prepared for things or if something pops up, it's like, you know, I'm sure that I've either gone through it or or you know, I have witnessed it, so you know, it's I can talk to those guys on on a level of like, Okay, I've seen this before, I've been through this, this is what's gonna happen. This is how how you deal with it. Um, you're not just an executive like you've actually you are, but now, but you've done all of what they're doing. You're through every single stuff, so you can empathize more than just sympathize. Yeah. Absolutely, man, I mean and and you know I try to be you know, not only like kind of run the label, but label, but also you know, produced those guys and like, um, you know a guy we're working with, John Morgan, he's on this New America's uh Songwriter contest show that's out right now. You know, he's representing North Carolina and so, you know, having a talk with him, he's like, you know, I don't know, this is an opportunity we have, you know, what do you think? And sitting down and talking to him about those kind of things and um, you know, it's just just kind of been there, done that, and can at least give some insight into whatever it is they got going on? They got any good? He's great, great, can't wait for you guys to hear him. I have not it's nothing. Now. He's got a song out. We released something last year just because we took him out on tour with us. It's called Coldest Beer in Town. And um, we just you know, wanted to have something out on him while he was out on tour with us for people to go get. But but his big launches is coming this year, so he's uh. He was a writer on the Carry duet and he's also a writer on the new song we Got Trouble with the Heartbreak. Here's Tim McGraw And this is Tim McGraw's biggest failure. That happened when Bruce Springsteen asked him to perform at a tribute. Pretty funny story from Tim mcgrawl. Right here was there a moment in your career that you look back at there was a massive failure, and you go, I'm really glad that happened because I learned a lot from it that allowed a lot of those successes. But you know, you always learn more from your failures than you do your successes. And you know, I certainly certainly have had my moments where I wasn't the best person I could be or the best artist I could be. You know, I've had those moments for sure. Um. The biggest massive failure and embarrassment that I had was at the Grammy Cares one year. Um, Bruce Springsteen, who's a friend of mine and one of my favorite people in the world, asked Faith and I to to do tougher than the rest together for his the honor of honoring him at the At the thing, you never all these huge artists were there. I mean Neil Young, I mean you Steing, you name it, they were all. They're performing Springsteen songs, and and anybody that knows Springstey, you know it's so hard to cover his songs because a lot of them are so left footed and and wordy and all that kind of stuff. So we're sitting at his table and he goes, you know, at the end, I'm getting up and doing uh oh, what's that song? One of those those Anyway, we got up and I said, sure, well look it up and sing. So we all were all on stage, all these artists on on stage, and it was one of those songs where everybody knows the first person knows the chorus, but nobody ever really knows the second verse. So we're standing there and he turns around and says, hey, black Hat comes sing the second verse. And I'm like, I can pull this off. And I go up and now I just a total fail. I couldn't find the phrasing. I didn't know the words. I mean, it was terrible, and I was so embarrassed. It was one of those nights I've just ruined my career, I've just ruined her. Luckily, because it aired luckily, I got to go back and fix it and they were able to cut away and and so it didn't look like I forgot the words, but it was. It was. It was one of those things I can't do it on in front of everybody. But Faith was standing beside me, and I got up and tried to sing it. And when I stepped back. She did like a little bit of a side step away from it. I don't know that's funny. Here's Jimmy Westbrook from A Little Big Town. Is him talking about how they got dropped from their first record deal just months after signing. At the time kind of destroyed them, but now very happy it happened. Obviously, from that point where you meet Philip, when did you have to create the LLC or that now it's an entity, like we aren't just friends that are singing making forty bucks for four of us to split. We're now going to pursue this, and if we're going to pursue it, it's got to exist. So when did that happen? It was right right around that same time. I mean it all happened, like from the time that I said I was going to do this to the time we um that was maybe at the end of ninety eight when we were having these conversations. I moved in February of nine. We were a four person group, all the four existing members, and just a few months later had a record deal. So that was all super fast. I moved here in February and we started. I remember I just opened up that branch of that company, and I was already going, hey, I'm not going to be able to come. We're gonna go sing for some labels and that kind of thing. They were super I was really up front about all that. When I moved, I'm like, I have this intention, so you're probably gonna run into this issue at me. And so when it happened, they were have an intention to watch the game, You're can run into this issue the buses at park where I can get signal thinking ahead, yes, that's pretty quick to get a record deal. Yeah, I mean we sang for six labels. We took a one guitar. I didn't even really play guitar at that time. UM took it in and saying live in front of all the record execs. And we got about five offers out of the six. Geeze. So if I'm you, I'm going to well or one step away from fame and it's on. Yeah, when did you realize that that's not quite how it works? Well? We um, we got our record deal. We in fact the signed the night we signed with Mercury Records, which lasted about four months. Maybe. UM, we got a spot at the Opery to play. We only knew three songs. We played all of them, um, and then they immediately whisked whisked us away and a limo to the airport to go sing at the day La Hoya fight for the national anthem. And when we were getting picked up in limos at the airport in Vegas, I was like, oh, this is on and then we lost our well we didn't. We walked away from that. It was a handshake walk away. Not many months after that, so it was quickly like, oh, this this is not going how I thought it was gonna go. Well, I'm gonna ask you and I have you expand on both of these, but the harshest reality once you get a deal and then but then actually kind of the greatest fairy tale that because you've been able to experience both. I'll say that you guys are in my mind if I'm just speaking of my thoughts and feelings here, which is often what I do. Like, Um, you guys have really worked. Everybody works hard. You guys have worked hard, and you've had a boom, big song. I like what you guys do. Though you try to push in different directions and at all times it's not always People aren't always receptive of new things, and I always admired that you guys continue to try that regardless. And so you say there's a gap, But in my mind, I'm like, yeah, probably gap because people don't understand what you guys are trying at the time, right, Like, that's how I interpret You're not saying it. That's how I'm interpreting because I've been able to experience a lot of it, not beside you, but running in a parallel path. So when I say harshest reality, biggest fairy tale, you've got to have them both. Let's start with the harshest reality of what it is that you do and and what you've had to experience. Well, I mean, I think I immediately go to to the time when I was just telling you that, Um, the Mercury deal started going awry. Um, had you know what's going awry? Did you feel it? It was made very we were made aware that it was. We without going into too much of the the backside of of all that, we we basically signed at Mercury cut a few sides, and when the powers that be at that time at Mercury heard the sides that we did, we cut about four songs. UM They basically said, hey, if if any of this is who you are, we're not interested. They were just were not in and so the harshest reality was UM. I think in that moment, I remember them saying all of that UM and basically felt like we had an ultimatum like our So I I just remember going to the parking lot after that conversation and all of the four of us sitting in a car shell shocked. I mean, we just signed our deal, we had did you know the day Lahoya fight this is and then all of a sudden, now that's about to be yanked out from unders. We're about to lose our record deal. But I'll tell you this, in that moment, and I think that was a pivotal moment for the band as far as what you're talking about of pushing and following our gut and our heart and where we musically want to go. We had that decision to make that day, and it was the hardest decision probably, oh I know at that time that we've made. It was incredibly difficult because we were we were sitting there having to ask ourselves is any part of what we just presented them us? And it was you know, some of the production might not have been quite the right direction, but we're still experimenting, trying to figure out who we are. But the harmony, structures and all of that of what we presented was us. So we made the decision ourselves that we were going to walk away from it. But because if they're telling us that they don't want any of that, then we can't stay here. That's that's not going to be true for ourselves, and and but it also set the ground work for who we became as a band as far as living and dying by our own decisions. Now, when I mentioned on the other side of that, like like it's so great, it's weird, like they're they're You're like, wow, this is going so wonderfully that it feels like it's the dream. Because I'm lucky enough to get those moments too, I mean where you're just like, I can't believe it's happening. I feel like I have so many of those moments. But um, it's always to me the unexpected, unbelievable moments, like collaborations that you do with people, or the being asked to be an Opery member. It's the things that you didn't even take the time to dre him up because you're like, oh, I didn't know that was possible. Um, it's kind of all of those moments of um, you know, singing on John Mellencamp record, like we we ended up doing non songs on one of his records as the vocals for his thing. It's it's those kinds of moments that you get to share the stage with people that you're just like, I don't how I'm from Somerton? How did I? How did I? How am I standing up here on this stage with this person? And those are the moments that I'm so grateful for and that you can't plan. Um that they just kind of worked themselves out and happened, and it's you just walk away going, man, what a what an incredible blessing this has all been. Here's Russell Dickerson with his wife Kaylee and how he got drawn from his first publishing deal I getting paid to write songs, and how he sat on his first big hit, Yours for two years before being able to record it. That whole deal from back then pub deal? Did it turn into all the things we thought it was going to? Fair wise you still would same published company. Also, you're out of all of that. Yeah, that was that. The first I signed in two thousand eleven, that was a two year deal, got dropped after two years, um, and then that was two thousand thirteen, and I didn't even write yours until two thousand fourteen. And then I didn't sign a deal till you haven't made that song and it's after two years. Huh. Yeah, well, what's kind of the genesis of your writing that song? And it took a second for it to kind of happen. Yeah, so you're right, like, just tell me about the So the overall picture is January twenty something is when we wrote it, and then January twenty something, literally almost to the day, four years later, four years is when it went number one. So four years in between that was. I had one offer for a publishing deal. We took it, we had to, We had no just got married. I got dropped the week we got back from our honeymoon. So that was a great We made twelve dollars that you yea combined. Yeah, So that was that was year one of marriage and then soeen we wrote it, and I mean we just we went all around town. Everybody said no, all the majors all the indies every I mean literally, were you were you chasing an artist deal with that song? Were you also pitching the song as well? So you want you wrote it? You're like, it's mine on this hill? Yeah, the whole, the whole, This whole time, I was like, I'm an artist writer, you know, like that was that was what I wanted to do, and so, uh yeah, I was just like I we obviously didn't take no for an answer, but I just put everything on this one song. I was like, I know, I know that, I know that, I know this is a hit. And and it took, i mean another two years from writing it too to go to labels and showcases and do the whole dance. And it wasn't until uh thirty Tigers slash now Triple Tigers. They've just started a whole brand new label, and it was it was Norbert Nicks, who had just got a let go from Sony, and like Kevin Herring who just gotta let go from Warner. It's all these guys who kind of, you know, related to this, this like being rejected kind of mentality, like a little chip on your shoulder a little bit, and um, and it just all came together with this tiny little label. I was the only artist on there and they had me one song, and that was that was what really ignited. I mean I missed the whole video part, but in industry wise, industry wise, that that was what what really like took took it. You know, at what point because the label was a small independent label, so it's it's difficult because they don't have the promotion infrastructure right for for an independent that they just don't have arms and fangs everywhere. So but at what point, though, did you realize we actually have a shot with this thing, Like this thing could actually be a massive hit. Like what was it a number on the chart? Yeah? Like were you hearing about research? Because it was also a ballad, Oh my dear God, I don't play. But then it started jumping like it was only in the twenties for like three weeks, four weeks something like that. It was like jump, two spots, jump, three spots, jump, and then it was in the teens and we were like who woa, whoa, whoa, what was happening? Did you do this song on any any TV? On any anything on our favorite? Did you do the Bachelor? It seems like the bachelor. Okay, I don't know this, but it seems like this, this would be that kind of song, big pop from that. Absolutely it was a couple, Rachel and Dean. Rachel she was she was like bab Dean was Geanie babies. Do you know Dean Bachelor in Paradise? He came back. I've never seen us. Not the guy to talk, but but I don't know Rachel. Okay, So she's an attorney, she's smart, she's really cool. You play this on the show or it was ever on radio? I'm pretty sure? Or no, No, it was on radio and it jump because it was so hard after it jumped like tin spots on airplay and top top of the iTunes charts, you know, just like craziness. That was. That was a big jump. When you played that song on the show, you did over and over again. Yeah, it was that two is Are you just playing with them? Dani? What was the scene? Was that awkward? Uh? Well they were late first of all, So it all started where we never had a tour bus before, but we got to ride down in a tour bus and then to South Carolina, South Carolina. Um, and then so we're waiting, we're waiting. We're waiting. I think Chris Harrison was felt bad. So he comes on our bus and you know, we have a we raise a toast, we have to have a drink, and we're just like hanging out with Chris Harrison on our bus, which for us at the time, we were like, I was freaking out. He was there for like two hours and we shared we had knob right now and I had him signed the bottle and I have it in my house, like I mean, like I'm a fan. And he let us every Monday, like her and her gal pals get together and watch Bachelor. He's also really nice. He's so nice to me, let us. He let us come to after the final rows. He was like, let me take us, do you want. I was like, it's twelve too many, and he was like, no, we'll make it happen. We I mean, me and all my friends filed in, Like it was so fun. It was really cool to like make it a real life experience and not so like this is the show. That's cool that you got to watch him play on the show and you got to hate because you're a fan. When you're a fan of something, it's so much cool that when it actually works out in a way that makes you still feel good. Yeah, and it was fun. It was I think the whole thing is a crazy phenomenon. And do I think it's the best way to find someone? Now? Am I highly entertained by drama that has nothing to do with my own life? Yes? I love it. I love it. They are they dancing? Is a dance scene. It's like a slow dance makeout. And how many times do you think you have to play that song with them dancing? Yeah, it was like two or three. But they have to make out every time on cue? No, no, no, they just think I mean, they made out, but they wanted to. It wasn't like make out at this It wasn't choreograph. This is Reba on how a bad review from USA Today ended up leading to the success of our TV show, Reba. Whenever you started to do Rebo, your your television series, did you guys get a straight deal or did you do a pilot and then the pilot got picked up? I was in the midst of doing any Get Your Done. We went in in April. I took ten days off from and he gets Your Gun to Do go to California shoot the pilot. Then we went to Upfronts, which is in May, and I had done eight shows that week. I got Monday off. Tuesday morning was up front, so I had to be but crack of dawn over there. And they changed the name three times. When we filmed the show for the pilot, it was the script was called Sally, and Marvel went to him and said, you know, if you did the afternoon filming as Sally and then in front of the audience tape it and Reba Briba instead of Sally, then let's see how that tests out. And they said, okay, so the title went from Sally. By the time I got to Upfronts, it was deep in the heart because we were off from Houston, Texas and we were the Heart family. So then there came out this thing on the USA today that they're publisist. Publicists had said, why the w B had ever heard rebut mac and tire for this part is ridiculous. She's not ever Yeah, she's not our demographics, And so the head of the company called by the time we got back to the hotel after up Fronts and said, terribly sorry, terribly sorry. What can we do to make up for this. Well, I'd already gone back to bed. I had a performance that night. So Norvel was talking to Hernie. He heard me get up and go to the bathroom and out of the other room and he said, um, hang on, let me put reb on the line. Banged on the bathroom doors. So pick up the phone and so I said hello. I said, we're terribly sorry, what happened and what was in the USA today? What can we do to make this up to you? And I was half asleep and I said, uh oh, well, she said well, Norvell said if we call it Reba, you'll be happy with that. And I said that's a wonderful idea. Thank you, hung up, went back to bed. So that's how I got the name Reba. And so you go, did you move out to l A because it was that like you said, Hey, I got I just gotta go. If I'm gonna do this, I don't need to visit it, I need to go live it. Oh we had. We were there three weeks. So what happened was I got through it. Then he gets your gun. On June we went to Ireland for a vacation. I did five weeks all Girl tour and then went to l A. Found found an apartment, a condo we lived in for the first season, because you never know, it could go thirteen weeks and you don't get picked up. But then we got picked up on the back nine, and then Marvel went house hunting and we bought a house and we were there for six and a half seasons. Did that ever feel like home out there? I loved living in l A. I'd love to go back and do another show. Oh yeah, absolutely. Have you guys, you know, explored different versions of that. Have you been close, real close? Have you shot a pilot to anything? Yeah, the Mark Cherry pilot. We did one called ox Blood, and uh, they passed on. It's always a weird thing because I've shot a few pilots and had it passed on, where you feel like everybody so pumped about it and everybody loves it. But then might have been talk shows like, oh, this is it. Research has been great, it's been it's tested so wonderfully. Well, let's spend some month. Well it's just right now. So is that show? That show is done? That show is done, unfortunately, which I thought it was gonna you know, last forever. I thought I'd retire off of that show. I mean the ox Blood that show. That's it. Yeah, Mark Cherry, I love his show now Why Women Kill. It's just he is a genius. I saw my wife watching that show one day and I was like, why are you watching Why? I don't know what it was about, just exactly what are your motives? Are we learn from this show? Yes? What? Here's Cain Brown's manager, Martha Earls on getting fired before an award show for spending too much time with her new artist at the time, who was Kane Brown. And this is right before he exploded on the country music scene. I let go of other things. There are other people, other clients I had fired me. I remember when person fired me, like the night of the c m A is because I was paying too much attention to Kine and and and honestly that was all a gift, right because for the first two two and a half three years we worked together, it was all we did. We were so focused. Kane and I were like laser beam locked in and if something came at me that didn't have anything to do with what our mission. I know, I just ignored it. When you do. When you guys were kind of making your early plan was that, hey, people are going to tell you you don't look like country music, and here's what we're going to do back at that, Um yeah, I mean people, it wasn't even a well, I didn't even think about, oh, we're going to retaliate that we're not retaliable, but but it can be. We're gonna put out great songs over and over again, keep doing what we're doing right and super serve the fans and super serve the people that are there for you, you know. And that's even the advice. It's now it's like even Kine and I talked about it now where people are so mean on the internet, and it's like, just lean into the ones that are kind. You know. Yeah, when whenever I moved here, it was awful. I mean the first two and half years were awful for me. You're awful. I can't imagine. And it wasn't just Nashville, because Nashville kicked the crap out of me for a long time, but it was you know, they took us and put us on all of these country radio stations, which meant a lot of these stations had radio guys that were either retiring or they were firing because ratings weren't good, and so we weren't just feeling it on a level here at home, we were getting it in every single market. So I had to tell my guys, like, stay off of everything, let me handle it, stay off of it. But what we're going to do, we're never going to get those people. They are never they are. They made a couple of years come back around. But we got to take our people who are with us and make sure they know that they are the most important thing, and that's who we're here for. And so it was a version of that where we just knew we weren't getting those people that were that were upset that we existed. You can't that'll that'll exhaust you, and why not lean into what's working, and because eventually they'll start growing and and for you, for Kine, for whoever. Those then they start out numbering the dissenters, and then all of a sudden, they start quieting the dissenters. And that's where you want to be. And then some of the dissenters come back around and go, you know what, I don't really give you a chance at first, but they don't. They never said they're wrong. By the way. They never said they were wrong. They're just like, you know, I hated you at first, and now you know, I'm sister like Sha. They won't even say they like us, but they're like, hey, my sister like Sha. But I just I know what that feels like to go and and and not the same way at all because we do different things. But just have everyone immediately go, you're not us and you don't represent us, when in the end, I represented them more than anything in the past that had claimed to do so, which was the craziest thing to me exactly. But you never had that opportunity to even express that. So when Caine is putting out the first music as a managed was he signed yet or did you do that with him? Um? Yeah, it feels complicated. Yeah, it's completed. Okay. So when you put you when you put out your first music that you're going to go to DSPs, digital or radio, like your first this is our first big release together. Why did you choose the body of work that you chose, Like, what was it to you that that said here, this is our entrance into the big world. Yeah? When he So when I first started working with Kane, he had put some songs out independent. He was in a production deal and independently had put some songs out and they did really well. So then when he made his first, like you said, it was an EP, it was a five or six song EP for Sony. It was it was a couple of those songs that he had put out, you know, they've never really been including a collection of work. And then the other were came. He did really work on his songwriting when he came to town. He really worked on songwriting and found his small group, and so the others were songs that he had written that he was proud of, and Kane was touring, he was selling out. What was crazy is he was selling out two thousand cap rooms without having any product out. It was wild and so we really couldn't get that first EP out quick enough. So when you put out what was the first song, I'm trying to think about it. You used to love You sober was his first kind of song. So why that one? Um? That one was the song that he That was the first song he ever wrote when he came to Nashville, and he put it on social media and came was one of the first artists to tease their music in Nashville at least, I don't want to outside Nashville. Other people were doing it, but in Nashville to really tease his music on social media, and the demand for it was so high that he put it out. Were you satisfied with the reaction and also the success of the song because it wasn't a number one. I don't thing it was the thirties number. But did you feel like, hey, we got some good traction here with the first one, or we disappointed. Well, we put it out and it at the time, iTunes was the thing. You know. iTunes really mattered, and it did really well in iTunes and number one on iTunes. We're like, oh my gosh, when we put this, take this to the radio, It's going to be like an instant hit. And it wasn't. And so that was a bit of a reality check. And the thing about it is with Kane was selling all these tickets and so we were like, you know what, We're still connecting with people obviously because they're coming out and seeing the show and there the song was a gold record and all of this stuff. So we just you just have to kind of keep moving, keep working towards something. The second song UM the label chose it was called Thunder in the Rain. You know, I don't remember that one. I remember that. I know the first one, Thunder in the Rain was went to like number forty eight. It was not UM, not not necessarily the greatest one we had, and so thunder in the Rain, uh. I remember when that was out. It was up tempo and it was like, okay, this is but it's real musically it wasn't really as much kine. It's not like he performs it live every night or whatever. But UM by this point he had made a full album, and so we put out his first full album UM with a number forty eight song coming off the chart. Are you guys like it's like two worlds, It's like one world you're selling. You're selling both both tickets and music, because at the time that was the thing. We actually sold downloads. But then you have I'm assuming these old school UM gatekeeper radio programmers that just aren't buying it. I mean, it's buying it. The term that you would use. I mean there was I think, you know, and I would never say who. I don't. I don't even know if they're still around, but I remember there was one um, one person at a station. And I didn't really get in the weeds on that, because you know, the record labels have like whole teams of people that talk to the radio and stuff, and but somehow, I don't know, I think because we were doing a show in the market and I remember I was talking to this guy and and he uh, I was like, hey, Kane, sold out the show in your market, and uh, it would be awesome, like if you could, you know, maybe like play the song. We'd love to sold out the show in their market. And you're begging for radio. Oh yeah, that happened everywhere. And he and the guy said, well, we don't. I don't play urban music. I played country music. And I said, oh, I know, that's that's wonderful because Cam Brown is a country artist. And he said, no, he's not. And I said, yes he is. It's like this like it was like comic almost, and yes he is, and he goes, I know he's not. I just looked at him and I said, okay, well maybe you should go listen to him. And that was the end of the conversation and he did not play the song. I looked at him, I know he's not country I looked at him, and I'm assuming again. I'm gonna do a lot of assuming here that as Kane has again, and we're going to end this in a little bit talking about how massive he is yet still under appreciated. That again, how massive he is in places that's probably still happening in a way, and I think that's probably why he's not getting the respect he deserves. I think, do you mean, like for award nominations, I mean, for everything you know? I don't. I don't know. I mean I think sometimes uh, I don't know. Maybe people put their vote behind what they see themselves in and maybe they're the same perficial and don't see themselves and how somebody looks. Well, then I will say it. I do think that is a major There's just no reason that an artist, if you take away faces and skin color and genitals, let's pull all that off. Okay, it's the weirdest shape and you just line up body of work, songs, uh, streams, hits, radio, radio, number one's concert. There's no reason that Kane shouldn't be and he is to people like me and fans, but to the people that are organizing these higher level awards there's no reason he shouldn't be in those conversations. Thanks for listening to this Bobby Cast. Hope you enjoyed it, and I hope you look at the famous failures that we add here and you leave this feeling inspired by hearing how things may not always go the way you at hope, but it can act to actually turn into something pretty awesome if you just don't quit. Also, you just can't predict the future, so don't stop pushing. Be sure to subscribe to the Bobby Cast wherever you're listening to this now rate at five stars if you don't mind. That would be because when people give us one star, we keep pushing, don't we mind? Keep going, but keep going We could use those five stars. We'll be back next Friday with a brand new episode. We appreciate you, guys, and we'll see you next time on the Bobby Cast.