Checkride Insights Ep. 2 — Adam Boyd on Airworthiness, Instruction, and Checkride Readiness

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You're listening to the VSL aviation podcast and this is Check Ride Insights.

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A series where I sit down with designated pilot examiners from around the country to talk
about trends in check rides, common pitfalls, and how you can show up better prepared.

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Whether you're an applicant, instructor, or just someone who wants to stay sharp, these
conversations are for you.

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My guest today is 2025 FAA CFI of the Year, Adam Boyd.

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Adam's a good friend of mine and brings over 25 years of aviation experience from flying
J-3 Cubs to the C-130.

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He's a Gold Seal CFI, two-time master instructor and DPE based in central Arkansas.

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In the Air Force, he serves as a C-130H instructor and evaluator pilot with over 5,600
hours of flight time and 600 hours of combat time.

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He also holds an ATP, multiple type ratings and degrees in Geoscience and Geography.

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Adam is a respected voice in the general aviation and military training communities, and
I'm glad to have him on the show with me today.

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All right.

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So like I said, Adam has a pretty extensive background and he's a good friend of mine.

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I've known Adam for years, both in the military and the civilian side.

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So just has a lot to offer as an examiner.

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So thank you so much for joining us.

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Yeah, thanks for having me Seth.

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I really appreciate it.

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This uh is pretty cool getting to be on your show finally.

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Yeah, yeah, well uh this is kind of a series that I'm doing where I'm interviewing
different examiners from around the country and figure I'd start here in Arkansas, so You

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know tell us a little bit about your examining experience.

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I've kind of told folks about your background already But are you giving check rides
primarily in Arkansas?

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Are you branching out at all in the region?

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So I am uh currently full time in the Air National Guard.

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So I do exams in the evenings after work and on some days when I can manage to get them
off.

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I can do two a day and then one in the evening, uh some days during the week.

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So I'm really only doing about 10, maybe 12 at the most a month.

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So I'm not really producing like some other examiners like yourself.

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However, I do travel some, I do have a relationship with a few schools.

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outside of Arkansas, for the most part I hang out in Arkansas, mainly at the North Little
Rock Airport or at Adams Field down.

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got your own airport, that's pretty cool.

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Yeah.

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no, it's not for me, but yeah, Adams field.

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get it now like that.

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Yeah.

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Actually that field's named after a gentleman that he crashed in an airplane and uh he was
a member of the 154th observation squadron, which is actually the same squadron I'm in now

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in the Arkansas.

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Oh, I didn't actually know that.

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So what we're going to do is, uh you know, we have the formal program through the WINGS
program or the FASafety team where we do the CFI DPE forms.

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basically anywhere you're at in the country, you can log on your FASafety.gov website and
you can find seminars and at least a few of those seminars every year should be CFI DPE

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forms.

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So the idea that I had is, let's kind of do a format that's sort of like that.

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uh and let's do it on a podcast format.

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And that way, you know, it kind of has a much larger reach.

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Because these CFIDP forums, you've done some, Adama, now.

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uh You might have, you know, 20 or 30 CFIs show up, you know, or instructors, pilots from
around the region.

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But this, I think, has a lot bigger impact.

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And so what I'm hoping that you'll share with us are, you know, some of the deficiencies
that you're seeing.

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both in the preparation for check rides, the ground portion, the flight portion, what CFIs
could be doing better, and not only that, but what applicants could be doing better to

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prepare.

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So I'll leave it at that and give you the floor.

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Yeah, I have done quite a few CFIDP forums.

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I'm not quite on the podcast scale like you are.

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I'm more of the local guy.

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So I did the in-person stuff still.

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And yeah, I've had as many as 15 CFIs at one of mine and I've had as few as two.

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But you know, it doesn't matter.

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I put them on anyway, because I want to make sure that the CFIs in the area are getting
good mentorship.

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and information to be able to go produce better pilots.

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Because the state of general aviation and aviation, you know, at a larger scale starts
with the CFI.

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That's the first person, the first professional that somebody who's coming into this field
meets from like a, on a relationship scale, you know, that's going to be the first person

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that shows them how aircraft work, shows them the ropes and aviation.

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And so it's such an important role that I do believe it requires quite a bit of mentorship
from people who have been there and taught and they've had challenging students, they've

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had challenging issues, they've had complex paperwork issues.

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I think it's important to get that information out there.

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And just as important as getting that information out there is as a CFI, especially if
you're a new CFI.

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is taking the time to go to those DPE forums and hear from other CFIs and DPEs that have
been there before you and have probably seen the same issues that you're going through.

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There's really nothing new under the sun.

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So uh just trying to get information across to folks and making sure that we can set them
up for success.

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uh So some things that I like to

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really hammer home on DPE forums, CFIDPE forums is I really have a couple of things that
have worked for me uh as far as a flight instructor in both the military and on the

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civilian side.

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And I do borrow a lot from the military because I initially became a instructor in the
military.

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uh And then I took that skill set outside to the civilian world and I started

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teaching people on the outside, which I had been, I've been flying since 1999.

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I started flying when I was 16.

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So I've been flying in general aviation a lot longer than the military, but taking the
skills and the teaching concepts and how to get information, complex information boiled

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down to something simple a student can take.

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I took that skill set from the military and I use it outside in the civilian world as
well.

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Some things that I like to really hammer home are you need to be

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making sure that you give your students homework.

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And so I like to tell students about the next flight.

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Hey, just so you know, next flight, we're going to go over A, B and C and here's some
homework I need you to read in the airplane flying handbook chapter, you know, whatever,

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and make sure that they have stuff to go read ahead of time.

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If you have some cool YouTube videos that you found other guys have made.

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You know, tell them to go look at those YouTube videos if you like those, but have
something.

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It doesn't have to be a lot.

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It's not like a college course.

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Just make sure that they have something to go read or a YouTube video to watch or
something to review before the flight.

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You start getting their brain moving in that direction of what's going to happen on the
flight.

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When they show up for the flight, make sure you're doing a proper briefing.

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um If you're just, you know.

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sitting in the FBO on the couch, student shows up, y'all get the keys and head out to the
airplane and go fly.

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You're really doing a disservice to both yourself and your student.

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You should really pause and sit down across from a table from each other and really talk
about what you plan on getting out of that flight that day.

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And it should be related to the homework.

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So ask them about some things that they should have gone over through the homework.

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Ask them if they had any questions and then go through

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the maneuvers that you plan on doing today, whether it's something simple like slow flight
or just going over your power off stalls.

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Make sure that you walk them through those steps at ground speed zero before you step out
to the aircraft.

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So now they've read some homework, they've gone through a mental preparation, and now
you're getting into the aircraft and you're going to go fly.

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And all of us flight instructors, we can teach in the airplane, that's fine.

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So I won't hammer that home, but.

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When you get back from your flight, you know, it's not just, you know, write down the
hives and get them to sign a ticket and pay their fee and then out the door they go and

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then onto the next student.

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Make sure you block off enough time, you know, 15, 20 minutes after the flight and go back
over what you did during the flight.

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You know, hey, you know, did you follow everything you needed to get into slow flight?

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Did you recover from slow flight properly?

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Did you set yourself up for power off stalls?

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Were there any hiccups along the way that you can learn from or discuss?

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And then take another two or three minutes and tell them the homework for the next flight.

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Tell them to go read something.

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Tell them to watch a YouTube video or review some other material.

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That way they show up for the next flight prepared.

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So you set them up with information.

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You boil that information down at ground speed zero.

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You go fly.

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You come back.

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You go back over what they did so that you could learn from what happened in the airplane.

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and reiterate some skills that they may need to work on and then set them up for success
on the next flight.

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that's really something that I like to mentor young CFIs on is that's the flow that you
really need to get your students into.

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uh And then if there's any students out there listening that are not CFIs, know, uh
another thing I like to tell people about is chair flying and

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Everybody's like, what do you mean chair flying?

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And we physically sit in a chair with your manual or something in front of you and you
visualize yourself in the cockpit going through these different steps.

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Well, I'm gonna set myself up for slow flight.

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Okay, cool.

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Well, the first thing I probably need to do is pull the power back, right?

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So I could slow down.

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I'm probably gonna dump in some flaps.

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I'm looking for specific air speeds to do that.

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You know, just sit there and visualize this and practice it at ground speed zero at your
table at home.

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where it doesn't cost you anything, but maybe five or 10 minutes of your time.

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And so a lot of those skills, they go a long way to helping you retain information and get
the most out of your flight training experience.

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So I wanted to start out with that.

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Those are some essentials that I tell new CFIs and pilots coming up through the
certificates and ratings on how to get the most out of their time.

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I especially love the briefing and debriefing.

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I think there's so much that can be learned uh with a good briefing and especially a
debriefing on how a flight went.

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And you know what we say in the air forces, you plan the flight, you fly the plan, and
then you debrief the plan.

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And you can basically say, well, where were the deficiencies on the flight and are
planning?

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How could we have done that better?

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What did we learn?

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And the other thing that you do in that briefing, the pre-briefing, the pre-flight
briefing, is you clearly define what are today's learning objectives.

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Because that's something that can be really overwhelming is there's so much stuff to
learn.

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At whatever rating you're doing this at, but probably especially the private pilot level,
is you have so many things to learn and your instructor's gonna be teaching

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so many things, but you really want to pick out probably three to four, you know, desired
learning objectives for that specific flight that you can really hone in on.

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And if you don't do that as an instructor, what you may find yourself doing, and you know,
I know you, you give CFI initial rides, and this is kind of one of my pet peeves is you'll

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hear instructors tell instructor or, you know, applicants that are taking their CFI
initial to never stop talking.

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You know, you, you want to

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Instructor is the entire ride and what I tell all my applicants is you know, would you
really want your instructor?

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To never cease talking while you're out there trying to learn how to fly and the answer
is, know, usually no, you know you and And if you yeah, and if you don't have a Exactly,

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if you don't have a good pre-brief and you don't Drill down and say here's the learning
objectives for today that correlate to your homework.

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You know, I really like how you tied that in there

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Uh, then you'll find yourself, you don't really have a plan and you just kind of have
diarrhea, the mouth, the entire flight, and it's overwhelming for your student.

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So, uh, being able to pick out and clearly to find, here's what we're going to learn
today.

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think that's, that's really good.

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And then the, chair flying aspect.

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Um, yeah, chair flying is it's free, you know, it doesn't cost you anything, but time.

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And it's, it's a great tool.

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mean, I use that in.

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undergraduate pilot training with the Air Force like I'm sure you did.

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We did that daily, know, multiple times a day, your chair flying a procedure.

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yeah, I had a printout of the T6 cockpit taped to the wall in my guest bedroom.

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uh And I'd sit there and point at the different switches, uh levers and control knobs and
all that stuff.

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I'd point to it whenever I was talking about it so that I could help hone in the motor
skill of, I'm not fumbling for the switch.

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I know it's right over here on this panel.

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So.

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uh

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Yeah, mean, that's the chair flying can be it can be complex.

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Like you can have something like a like a print out of the cockpit in front of you.

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You could have a friend across from you uh asking where that switch is, you know, well,
I'm I'm I'm gonna put the flaps down.

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Where's that switch at all?

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It's over here next to the throttle.

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You could say that ah or you can just do it by yourself.

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That's right.

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But it's it's so important and it goes such a long way.

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I don't know many people that went through UPT that didn't do something like that.

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So yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, uh, talking about exams, you know, I really, I've had a lot of fun being a DPE.

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Um, I'll, lot of people are like, Oh, you know, you probably have to know a whole lot to
be a DPE and that's, that's, you probably have to have a lot of experience to be a DPE.

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and those you have to know everything.

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I know that I have learned a lot since I have become a DPE.

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And one thing I tell people is I'm like, well, and there was, did, how did you learn more
as a DPE?

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What are you talking about?

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I thought you were supposed to know everything.

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Well, think about it this way.

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I only know what I was taught.

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And then I only have experience teaching what I knew.

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However, now that I'm an examiner, I get to see all kinds of ways that people teach
different maneuvers or techniques or information.

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I get to see all kinds of stuff and hear all kinds of stuff in the world.

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Some of it's great.

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Some of it's not great.

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But I have uh

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I have really learned quite a bit by just doing exams and it's been really eye opening to
how much is actually out there.

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And I don't know if you had the same experience or not.

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Absolutely.

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But being a DP has made me understand stuff a lot more in depth than I thought I'd do.

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That's another interesting thing about being an exam.

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Yeah, no, mean, it was kind of shocking the first couple of years you're examiner how much
you're learning uh because what you're forced to do is you're forced to get into the

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regulations a lot more than you probably did as a CFI, definitely as a student, because
you're having to base all of your evaluation, plans of actions for the different ratings

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on the source material.

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uh You need to be very careful there because you're representing the FAA.

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So you have to use the existing FAA material that are out there and just that familiarity
with all of those documents and advisory circulars and handbooks and airman certification

202
00:16:47,147 --> 00:16:48,817
standards, all of that.

203
00:16:49,578 --> 00:16:52,859
You just get to know it intimately as an examiner.

204
00:16:52,859 --> 00:16:55,080
And there's a lot you wind up learning.

205
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,542
And I think it's a weekly thing where I learned something new.

206
00:17:00,215 --> 00:17:04,464
It may be something that I used to know that I've forgotten and then I'll relearn it, you
know.

207
00:17:04,464 --> 00:17:04,962
Yeah.

208
00:17:04,962 --> 00:17:08,023
had that before where I'm like, yeah, I remember that.

209
00:17:10,005 --> 00:17:11,826
And a lot of people listening are like, what do mean?

210
00:17:11,826 --> 00:17:12,686
You're still learning?

211
00:17:12,686 --> 00:17:14,467
It's like, well, we're all learning.

212
00:17:14,467 --> 00:17:22,732
I had an old pilot tell me one time, he goes, Hey man, if you get in an airplane and you
go flying, you don't learn something like even something really small.

213
00:17:22,752 --> 00:17:26,242
You'd probably need to take a step away for a little bit because you're not paying
attention.

214
00:17:26,242 --> 00:17:28,675
I was like, that's, that's pretty cool.

215
00:17:28,675 --> 00:17:33,794
So like I've, I've tried to keep that in the back of my mind when I go fly, I'm like, I
should learn something.

216
00:17:33,794 --> 00:17:38,355
from today, even if it's completely minuscule, you know, otherwise, what did I do?

217
00:17:38,355 --> 00:17:39,305
What did I do it for?

218
00:17:39,305 --> 00:17:54,439
You know, so for exams, some things that I run into uh as a DP that are showstoppers and
I'm sure other examiners that you interview will say the same thing as paperwork.

219
00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:04,072
I can't stress enough how important it is as a CFI to make sure that your applicants have
their paperwork in order.

220
00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:10,468
And a lot of that is uh just a lack of attention to detail.

221
00:18:11,629 --> 00:18:22,394
mean, I've got some checklists on my website that I have links to to help CFIs prepare
their paperwork for an exam.

222
00:18:22,794 --> 00:18:30,327
And I'm not, when I go through somebody's paperwork, I'm not looking for a reason to not
do the exam that day.

223
00:18:30,327 --> 00:18:32,686
think some people think that I'm

224
00:18:32,686 --> 00:18:35,026
hunting for a reason to not do the exam.

225
00:18:35,026 --> 00:18:41,626
I'm really I'm just trying to make sure that when I do the exam that the applicant is
qualified.

226
00:18:41,626 --> 00:18:46,606
And so we do have a saying in the Air Force.

227
00:18:46,606 --> 00:18:51,006
It's not you, the pilot that graduates from some type of training.

228
00:18:51,006 --> 00:18:52,566
It's your it's your folder.

229
00:18:52,566 --> 00:18:54,886
It's your paperwork that graduates.

230
00:18:55,366 --> 00:18:58,826
So you have to pay attention to it.

231
00:18:58,826 --> 00:19:01,760
So a lot of stuff I talk I like to see.

232
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,071
talk about is endorsements.

233
00:19:04,331 --> 00:19:06,712
And so there's a couple of ways to look at endorsements.

234
00:19:06,712 --> 00:19:10,093
You can look at them as a laundry list of things you have to check off.

235
00:19:10,373 --> 00:19:14,744
Or I like to break it down into different categories, right?

236
00:19:14,744 --> 00:19:24,238
So you have to have endorsements, no matter what certificate level, that tell me that you
have given them the required training out of the FARs.

237
00:19:24,238 --> 00:19:24,698
Okay.

238
00:19:24,698 --> 00:19:26,278
uh

239
00:19:26,348 --> 00:19:30,561
So you have to tell me that you've gone into part 61 and you've given them the required
training.

240
00:19:30,561 --> 00:19:39,207
So you're saying I have given this applicant the required training per FAR 61 point,
whatever it is for that certificate, right?

241
00:19:39,387 --> 00:19:47,934
Then there's the other one that says that you have given them the training within the last
two months, right?

242
00:19:47,934 --> 00:19:49,375
So they have recent training.

243
00:19:49,375 --> 00:19:51,596
So there's training and recent training.

244
00:19:52,217 --> 00:19:54,508
And then for certain exams,

245
00:19:54,774 --> 00:19:58,856
like the private pilot exam, they have to be PIC ready.

246
00:19:58,856 --> 00:20:01,937
So they have to be able to be the PIC of the aircraft.

247
00:20:01,937 --> 00:20:07,479
So you have to have endorsements that allow them to be the PIC of the aircraft and they
have to be updated as well.

248
00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:09,960
So if you think about that, you got to give them the training.

249
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,982
They have to be recent and they have to be able to be PIC.

250
00:20:13,982 --> 00:20:21,665
So when you think about those three ideas, that's how you have to think about the
endorsements that you're giving, especially for the private instrument and commercial

251
00:20:21,665 --> 00:20:24,786
level and multi-engine.

252
00:20:25,154 --> 00:20:27,455
So have to give them the training.

253
00:20:27,536 --> 00:20:31,078
They have to be recent and they have to be able to be PIC.

254
00:20:31,238 --> 00:20:39,283
And so without going into actual like, you know, this endorsement for this certificate,
which would take us a little while here on this podcast, that's the easiest way that I can

255
00:20:39,283 --> 00:20:42,862
get that across is you have to hit those three items.

256
00:20:42,862 --> 00:20:45,234
Yeah, no, mean, that's a really good way of putting it.

257
00:20:45,234 --> 00:20:51,748
I've never had it broken down like that, but that's actually a good way to think about it.

258
00:20:51,748 --> 00:21:02,866
And if you look in, and I've talked about this advisory circular before, but all these
endorsements can be found in advisory circular 6165J, and then actually has an

259
00:21:02,866 --> 00:21:05,798
endorsement, an example of endorsement section.

260
00:21:06,019 --> 00:21:11,262
so, and this is something that I've kind of adopted to, used to, I really liked.

261
00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:29,628
hear the FAR reference but the AC has all the endorsements broken down in a code format
kind of alpha 1 through I think it goes all the way into the uh 90s so yeah alpha 1

262
00:21:29,628 --> 00:21:30,950
through alpha 92.

263
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:31,910
uh

264
00:21:32,089 --> 00:21:33,422
that's quite a few of them.

265
00:21:33,422 --> 00:21:41,522
Yeah, so there's about 92 example endorsements that it gives, and that's actually a good
way to communicate what endorsements are required.

266
00:21:41,962 --> 00:21:53,622
So if you have that AC out, I can just say, hey, your CFI, it looks like they failed to
give you the Alpha 68 endorsement.

267
00:21:53,622 --> 00:21:59,902
And I can easily reference that, and I can see that, oh, the Alpha 68 is to act as PIC in
a complex airplane.

268
00:21:59,902 --> 00:22:03,628
So to bring up your point, if you show up to the

269
00:22:03,628 --> 00:22:15,768
the checkride in a complex airplane, one of the endorsements that I have to verify is that
you have the Alpha 68 endorsement, which is your 6131E endorsement, and that allows you to

270
00:22:15,768 --> 00:22:18,710
act as PIC of an aircraft that's complex.

271
00:22:18,990 --> 00:22:26,276
And if you don't have that endorsement, that means you're not legal to act as PIC in that
aircraft, which means we can't take the checkride.

272
00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:28,758
That kind of falls into one of those categories here.

273
00:22:28,758 --> 00:22:29,118
right.

274
00:22:29,118 --> 00:22:32,690
So you got to have the training, you got to be recent and you got to be PIC.

275
00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:36,923
So if you got to have all the endorsements meet all three of those requirements and we're
good to go.

276
00:22:36,923 --> 00:22:40,915
Now the flight instructor one has some other ones that you know like the spin endorsement
stuff.

277
00:22:40,915 --> 00:22:52,472
But yeah for most of your certificates if you can just make sure they get their training,
they're recent and you have in there capable of being PIC then you should be good to go.

278
00:22:52,472 --> 00:22:56,760
Now the 6165 does have those endorsements and I like

279
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,893
how they've broken those down, like you said, in those different codes.

280
00:22:59,893 --> 00:23:06,398
There are some other organizations out there that have some good material to help like
checklist wise.

281
00:23:06,939 --> 00:23:09,751
But I like to use the checklist from SAFE.

282
00:23:09,751 --> 00:23:18,058
I'm a member of SAFE, um but SAFE actually has a check-ride ready checklist and it
actually goes through your hour requirements as well.

283
00:23:18,058 --> 00:23:22,472
And it gives you all the endorsements you need for different exams and stuff.

284
00:23:22,472 --> 00:23:25,964
So there's material out there and it's available and it's free.

285
00:23:26,060 --> 00:23:36,619
And so I just encourage CFIs to go out there and look for organizational material to help
them organize all this information that they have to produce for each applicant.

286
00:23:36,679 --> 00:23:38,801
Cause there's quite a bit of it out there.

287
00:23:38,801 --> 00:23:40,403
Most of it's free.

288
00:23:40,403 --> 00:23:44,707
And um there's a lot of organizations out there that want you to succeed.

289
00:23:44,707 --> 00:23:53,558
And so I just encourage you to go look for ways to make your life easier and more
organized so that you can support your applicant.

290
00:23:53,558 --> 00:24:06,044
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because both SAFE and NAFI uh have tools for CFIs and
really as a CFI, you should be looking into joining one of those professional development

291
00:24:06,044 --> 00:24:18,429
organizations uh because it's going to help you be a better CFI and it's going to help you
prepare your applicant better uh for the checkride, is, you know, that's just good for

292
00:24:18,429 --> 00:24:19,449
everybody.

293
00:24:19,449 --> 00:24:20,954
those organizations are really

294
00:24:20,954 --> 00:24:21,644
Absolutely.

295
00:24:21,644 --> 00:24:21,964
Yeah.

296
00:24:21,964 --> 00:24:23,405
They have a lot of good material.

297
00:24:23,405 --> 00:24:28,637
And again, as a young new CFI, yes, you should join one of them.

298
00:24:28,637 --> 00:24:30,257
People are like, well, what's the difference in them?

299
00:24:30,257 --> 00:24:30,947
like, I don't know.

300
00:24:30,947 --> 00:24:34,638
Not really a whole lot, but you get a choice.

301
00:24:34,638 --> 00:24:36,359
NAFI is a great organization.

302
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:46,452
I just happen to be a member of SAFE and I really don't have a reason for that other than
I met somebody who was in SAFE first, you know, so, but the, uh, yeah.

303
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:48,132
You can be a member of both.

304
00:24:48,132 --> 00:24:48,762
Absolutely.

305
00:24:48,762 --> 00:24:49,633
You can join both.

306
00:24:49,633 --> 00:24:52,877
That's like I'm an AOPA and I'm a member of EAA.

307
00:24:52,877 --> 00:24:57,383
You can join as many as you want to and you get benefits out of each organization too.

308
00:24:57,383 --> 00:25:02,608
So I highly encourage you joining a professional organization like SAFE or NAFTA.

309
00:25:02,769 --> 00:25:04,096
It makes a big difference.

310
00:25:04,096 --> 00:25:15,195
Yeah, and you know, real quick, think, think, I'd like to get your take on this, but if I
have an applicant show up and their CFI is there and their CFI has one of these

311
00:25:15,195 --> 00:25:22,821
organizations kind of templates that they're using to help prepare, that actually sets a
really good tone.

312
00:25:22,821 --> 00:25:29,066
That shows me that, that this CFI has kind of gone above and beyond what the...

313
00:25:29,974 --> 00:25:36,577
you know, the legal requirements are, and they've kind of reached out there for these
other supplemental resources to help prepare their candidate.

314
00:25:36,577 --> 00:25:39,788
And it can, it can really set the tone for the whole checkride.

315
00:25:39,788 --> 00:25:50,612
You know, I think you've probably had applicants that show up that are very ill prepared
and they might be totally fine applicants and they might do a good job on the oral and the

316
00:25:50,612 --> 00:26:00,096
flight, but you kind of get off on the wrong foot when you show up not prepared versus you
have an applicant that shows up that's like super prepared.

317
00:26:00,424 --> 00:26:07,021
that sets the tone and it might result in the know the checkride going a little bit
smoother.

318
00:26:07,021 --> 00:26:08,298
Would you agree with that?

319
00:26:08,298 --> 00:26:09,429
I totally agree with that.

320
00:26:09,429 --> 00:26:10,910
It's kind like an interview, right?

321
00:26:10,910 --> 00:26:20,606
So, I mean, would you would want to make sure that all of your information is organized
properly and ready to be presented at an interview.

322
00:26:21,087 --> 00:26:30,864
I recommend you do the same thing for an exam because absolutely, I'm going to go through
whatever records you have at the exam.

323
00:26:30,864 --> 00:26:36,468
So you show up with your logbook and you show up with your endorsements and you got some
paperwork in a folder.

324
00:26:36,768 --> 00:26:39,240
If it's not organized, sure, I'm going to go through it.

325
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:48,292
ah But here's what's going to happen, though, as I'm going through the logbook, trying to
find the long cross country for a private pilot, or I'm trying to figure out the 250

326
00:26:48,292 --> 00:26:58,035
nautical mile cross country for the instrument applicant, and I'm having the thumb through
all these different pages and I'm having to figure out how many landings this guy did at a

327
00:26:58,035 --> 00:26:59,046
towered airport.

328
00:26:59,046 --> 00:27:02,078
It's not really clear to me where that is.

329
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,572
The applicant gets to sit across the other side of the table from me while I do this.

330
00:27:06,656 --> 00:27:11,770
And I try and make some small talk, but I'm also trying to concentrate.

331
00:27:12,091 --> 00:27:17,236
So I'm sitting here filming through this guy's logbook and I'm asking him questions like,
where's this flight?

332
00:27:17,236 --> 00:27:18,086
Where's this flight?

333
00:27:18,086 --> 00:27:18,947
Where's this flight?

334
00:27:18,947 --> 00:27:20,239
Where's this flight?

335
00:27:20,239 --> 00:27:29,647
That not only sets a tone with me that, you know, now I'm having to take some time and dig
through some paperwork, which is arguably part of my job.

336
00:27:29,647 --> 00:27:30,828
I get that.

337
00:27:30,868 --> 00:27:31,229
But.

338
00:27:31,229 --> 00:27:32,846
um

339
00:27:32,846 --> 00:27:41,926
Would you rather be that applicant across from me as I thumb through all these records and
ask all these random questions that they may or may not even know are requirements, right?

340
00:27:43,086 --> 00:27:51,266
Would you rather set them up with a tabbed out logbook and a checklist that tells me the
date they did that cross country so I can just thumb through straight to that date and go,

341
00:27:51,266 --> 00:27:53,706
oh, well, there's a 159 mile cross country.

342
00:27:53,706 --> 00:27:54,506
Cool.

343
00:27:54,526 --> 00:28:01,858
Oh, it looks like they went to, you know, Fort Smith and did 10 landings at a, know, every
how many landings they need at a controlled airport.

344
00:28:01,858 --> 00:28:02,578
That's pretty cool.

345
00:28:02,578 --> 00:28:05,640
You know, and I get through it in about five minutes.

346
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:12,962
Would you rather be the applicant that sits there for 20 minutes while I thumb through the
logbook or would you rather be the applicant that I take five minutes and I figure

347
00:28:12,962 --> 00:28:15,424
everything out because everything's tabbed out?

348
00:28:15,424 --> 00:28:26,548
I think it's not just you're not just trying to impress me as the DPE because I'm going to
give you a fair ride regardless of how organized you are, unless I just can't find it.

349
00:28:26,548 --> 00:28:27,408
You know what I mean?

350
00:28:27,408 --> 00:28:31,788
So I'm going to give you the same ride, but the

351
00:28:31,788 --> 00:28:39,234
Yeah, the before the applicant sitting there, you know, what I call in the ready state,
you know, ready to start this exam.

352
00:28:39,234 --> 00:28:42,727
And I'm just sitting here taking forever in the paperwork because I can't find it.

353
00:28:43,188 --> 00:28:54,147
I think it sets the tone with me and it also sets the applicant up for success because
they're not sitting there just waiting, you know, looking at me the whole time I'm going

354
00:28:54,147 --> 00:28:55,457
through the logbook.

355
00:28:55,458 --> 00:28:56,058
So you're right.

356
00:28:56,058 --> 00:29:00,748
I think it does set a really clear tone for this is going to be a smooth exam.

357
00:29:00,748 --> 00:29:05,718
right off the bat when everything's clear and presented professionally.

358
00:29:05,718 --> 00:29:06,048
Yeah.

359
00:29:06,048 --> 00:29:14,525
And there's also the risk if you aren't prepared, like we just, just don't start the check
ride because I can't verify that you're qualified.

360
00:29:14,525 --> 00:29:22,821
mean, that stinks every time that happens because you know, that uses up a track ride
slot.

361
00:29:22,821 --> 00:29:24,392
Then we have to go to reschedule.

362
00:29:24,392 --> 00:29:28,755
uh It's very inconvenient for everybody involved.

363
00:29:28,776 --> 00:29:32,638
So definitely something you want to try to avoid.

364
00:29:32,750 --> 00:29:33,850
Oh, 100%.

365
00:29:33,850 --> 00:29:37,610
Like I said in the beginning, I only give about 10 or 12 exams a month.

366
00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:41,430
So I try to do those in the afternoon after work.

367
00:29:41,870 --> 00:29:44,230
So it's not like we're starting this at 8 a.m.

368
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:48,330
I'm usually starting this somewhere around 3.30 p.m.

369
00:29:48,350 --> 00:29:52,646
So sometimes we're racing the sunset, you know.

370
00:29:52,652 --> 00:29:58,154
So yes, I start out my exam, the average exam length is about four, four and a half hours.

371
00:29:58,154 --> 00:30:02,531
So I give myself about four, four and a half hours for you to do a private pilot exam.

372
00:30:02,531 --> 00:30:06,714
That's in my experience, that's enough time.

373
00:30:06,714 --> 00:30:15,521
But if I got to spend an hour digging through the log books, I don't have the time to
complete your exam now before the sun sets.

374
00:30:15,542 --> 00:30:20,512
And so a lot of it has to do with this is the time that I've allocated.

375
00:30:20,512 --> 00:30:24,846
and we've agreed this is enough time and you've signed up for the exam.

376
00:30:24,846 --> 00:30:33,112
If I have to take too long to get through all your records and I can't get to the exam in
time, we may not finish the exam that day.

377
00:30:33,833 --> 00:30:40,799
And what that does is that burns another slot later on down the calendar for somebody
else.

378
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:45,722
And so we all know that there's only so many DPEs in the country.

379
00:30:45,843 --> 00:30:50,200
And if we're burning slots like that, then that's really not

380
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,991
helping the community out.

381
00:30:51,991 --> 00:31:06,177
um You know, that's just aside from the business aspect, just the available slots that we
all have as DPEs when they get eaten up like that with applicants that aren't qualified or

382
00:31:06,177 --> 00:31:14,110
applicants where I can't finish the exam today and no sir, I can't do it tomorrow because
I have to go back to my actual real job, my full time job.

383
00:31:14,110 --> 00:31:16,541
I can get to you in two weeks to finish this.

384
00:31:16,541 --> 00:31:17,882
That does stink.

385
00:31:17,882 --> 00:31:19,360
That's really a

386
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,846
not a situation you want your applicant to be in.

387
00:31:21,846 --> 00:31:23,606
Yeah, absolutely.

388
00:31:24,467 --> 00:31:25,907
All good stuff.

389
00:31:26,848 --> 00:31:34,911
So that's kind of the admin aspect of it where we're getting ready to start the check
grad.

390
00:31:34,911 --> 00:31:47,036
Now, you as an examiner, once you've qualified the applicant, then you give the, you know,
all the required briefings are done and you say, okay, we're going to begin the test.

391
00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:50,798
you start the dreaded ground eval, the

392
00:31:50,798 --> 00:31:52,858
exam when the test begins.

393
00:31:53,478 --> 00:32:07,978
what kind of things are you seeing on the oral exam side that you feel like instructors
could do a better job preparing their applicants for, where applicants struggling?

394
00:32:07,978 --> 00:32:09,542
Let's kind of go into that.

395
00:32:09,794 --> 00:32:16,089
So I'm going to start out with, I'm just going to talk about each exam in particular,
right?

396
00:32:16,089 --> 00:32:18,802
So like, like let's start out with the private pilot.

397
00:32:18,802 --> 00:32:22,334
So private pilots, even sport pilots, right?

398
00:32:22,334 --> 00:32:24,946
Cause I do sport pilot exams too, occasionally.

399
00:32:24,946 --> 00:32:28,549
ah And you've talked about this quite a bit.

400
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:33,814
You've got several of your podcasts, Seth, that actually cover it, but it's airworthiness.

401
00:32:33,814 --> 00:32:39,258
And so as a private pilot, I expect you to be able to tell me

402
00:32:40,138 --> 00:32:45,229
if this aircraft is airworthy and it's not just, yeah, you know, all the inspections are
done.

403
00:32:45,229 --> 00:32:46,262
I'm like, okay, great.

404
00:32:46,262 --> 00:32:48,023
Where are these inspections at?

405
00:32:48,023 --> 00:32:51,144
You know, how do you know this inspection is done?

406
00:32:51,144 --> 00:32:53,926
How do you know the ADs are complied with?

407
00:32:53,926 --> 00:33:00,550
You know, if they're not, if something isn't square in the log books, like how do you
address that?

408
00:33:00,550 --> 00:33:06,333
uh If you have inoperative equipment, how do you handle that inoperative equipment?

409
00:33:06,793 --> 00:33:08,294
And, um,

410
00:33:08,438 --> 00:33:11,919
You know, if you need a special flight permit, how do you do that?

411
00:33:11,919 --> 00:33:14,310
Because I'm giving you a ticket.

412
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:15,360
You have to think of it this way.

413
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:22,022
I'm giving you a certificate to go fly your friends and family around in an airplane.

414
00:33:22,462 --> 00:33:31,544
And so what I'm trying to understand is, is can you make a determination on whether that
aircraft is safe to fly today?

415
00:33:31,664 --> 00:33:37,766
And the majority of the guys and gals come in to take an exam with me are renting an
aircraft.

416
00:33:37,838 --> 00:33:41,060
Okay, and so, and I was the same way.

417
00:33:41,060 --> 00:33:53,069
I'll be honest, when I was a renter at the private pilot level, I had enough knowledge to
know that an airplane was probably not cool to fly that day, but I really couldn't tell

418
00:33:53,069 --> 00:33:56,791
you like the inner workings of how to go through the log books.

419
00:33:56,791 --> 00:34:04,537
And so now when I'm looking at an applicant, I don't want them to be the same, you know,
lackluster knowledge level that I was.

420
00:34:04,537 --> 00:34:06,402
I'll admit that there was

421
00:34:06,402 --> 00:34:14,202
There was a time where I was like, I know, I know my eight tomato flames and I know my,
uh, I know my inspection cycles that I need.

422
00:34:14,202 --> 00:34:22,954
Uh, but I, I really want to know whether you can go out to, you can look through the logs
and figure out whether the aircraft has had all this inspections and you can go out to the

423
00:34:22,954 --> 00:34:32,393
aircraft and understand whether it's airworthy because what I would hate to have happen is
I would hate to give you this certificate and then you go out and

424
00:34:32,393 --> 00:34:38,956
You make a mistake and take an aircraft airborne that really shouldn't be flying that day
and you get somebody hurt.

425
00:34:38,956 --> 00:34:41,977
You know, now is that likely to happen?

426
00:34:41,977 --> 00:34:46,219
No, but in aviation, it's pretty catastrophic when it does happen.

427
00:34:46,219 --> 00:34:49,171
So that's something that you have to really keep in the back of your mind.

428
00:34:49,171 --> 00:34:52,282
You know, why are these guys hammering on all these inspections?

429
00:34:52,282 --> 00:34:53,583
I'm just renting the plane.

430
00:34:53,583 --> 00:34:54,073
I got it.

431
00:34:54,073 --> 00:35:01,226
Yeah, you're just renting the plane, but you're the one who's going to be in the hot seat
when something does happen in that aircraft.

432
00:35:01,226 --> 00:35:07,190
And knowing whether it's airworthy ahead of time or not can alleviate some of those, most
of those issues.

433
00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:19,497
And so that's, I do like for the applicants to come in and know how to show me in the log
books where all the inspections are, how to know ah what ADs are and how to understand the

434
00:35:19,497 --> 00:35:26,741
cycles, whether it's time or whether it's, you know, calendar cycle for the AD has it been
complied with or not.

435
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:34,414
Because after you've done renting, there's a point where you go rent an aircraft and
you're flying rental planes for a while.

436
00:35:34,414 --> 00:35:42,658
There's a point where you start borrowing friends airplanes or you're flying other
airplanes from people that you meet at the EAA breakfast.

437
00:35:42,718 --> 00:35:46,400
And now these airplanes are being maintained by individuals.

438
00:35:46,741 --> 00:35:53,304
And so it's not like people are in and out of those planes every day, like a rental
operation.

439
00:35:53,304 --> 00:35:56,806
They may be in and out of that plane once or twice a month.

440
00:35:57,216 --> 00:36:07,825
So that's when the knowledge that you present on the exam that year or so down the road
when you're flying your friend's airplane, whether you can make an informed decision on

441
00:36:07,825 --> 00:36:15,142
whether that aircraft is Airworth, that's where I'm hoping that you retain that knowledge
from your exam.

442
00:36:15,142 --> 00:36:15,680
Yeah.

443
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,030
agree with that 100%.

444
00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:32,159
And I also like where you're going where you need to know how to verify a plane's
airworthy in a good enough way where it's easy to repeat that skill, if that makes sense.

445
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:41,984
if you're just learning how to verify the plane is airworthy for the day of your check
ride, and it took you like a day to figure out if this plane is airworthy, that's not a

446
00:36:41,984 --> 00:36:43,705
very sustainable practice.

447
00:36:43,705 --> 00:36:45,164
know, when you go borrow

448
00:36:45,164 --> 00:36:52,538
the airplane from your buddy, you probably aren't gonna go through that day process to
verify that it's airworthy.

449
00:36:52,538 --> 00:37:05,484
uh So you need to be good enough at it that you can verify airworthiness, the basics
anyway, within just a few minutes with access to the aircraft logs.

450
00:37:05,685 --> 00:37:08,756
And that is achievable, it's definitely achievable.

451
00:37:08,866 --> 00:37:12,971
but I don't think a lot of private pilots that I see are at that level of knowledge.

452
00:37:12,971 --> 00:37:21,200
They demonstrate it for the checkride, but I can kind of tell their grasp on it is very
thin, and they probably just learned how to do it within the last week.

453
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,212
That's kind of the impression that I get.

454
00:37:23,212 --> 00:37:25,090
That's the impression I get.

455
00:37:25,090 --> 00:37:36,319
Yeah, it always makes me smile when I'm training or giving a checkride to like an aircraft
owner and they walk in with kind of a command knowledge of the aircraft's airworthiness

456
00:37:36,580 --> 00:37:40,162
and I can just tell them, hey, show me that this plane's airworthy.

457
00:37:40,162 --> 00:37:46,627
And you know, 10 minutes later, they've gone through everything and there's no more
questions for me to ask.

458
00:37:47,569 --> 00:37:49,806
that, you know, that's, that's really good.

459
00:37:49,806 --> 00:37:56,918
Yeah, most aircraft owners have, yeah, they have a financial, you know, interest in making
sure the airplane is airworthy.

460
00:37:56,918 --> 00:38:02,750
So there is some additional uh emphasis that an aircraft owner will give to an aircraft.

461
00:38:02,750 --> 00:38:05,290
uh have absolutely seen that also.

462
00:38:05,290 --> 00:38:11,192
ah But yeah, I can't stress enough, like airworthiness sounds like a hurdle that you have
to jump for your check ride.

463
00:38:11,192 --> 00:38:18,194
No, just like Seth said, it's a skill that you have to be able to repeat for the rest of
your time as a pilot.

464
00:38:18,254 --> 00:38:19,094
So.

465
00:38:19,406 --> 00:38:32,595
uh But yeah, moving on, think uh going to the instrument exam, I talk a lot about weather.

466
00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:37,739
And one of the reasons is, is you're not trying to avoid weather anymore, you're in it.

467
00:38:37,839 --> 00:38:38,369
Okay.

468
00:38:38,369 --> 00:38:39,720
That's how I like to put it.

469
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:43,533
Private pilots, yeah, tell me the weather and make sure it's VFR.

470
00:38:43,533 --> 00:38:44,143
That's cool.

471
00:38:44,143 --> 00:38:46,825
How are you going to get around some type of storm system?

472
00:38:46,825 --> 00:38:48,086
You know, you can...

473
00:38:48,322 --> 00:38:52,063
do one of two things, you can fly around it or you can land in front of it and wait.

474
00:38:52,424 --> 00:39:01,547
know, like there's a couple of things you can do, but as an instrument pilot, you know,
you can tell me a lot of people sit there and they tell me all day long, man, I've got

475
00:39:01,547 --> 00:39:02,998
really high personal minimums.

476
00:39:02,998 --> 00:39:06,920
You know, I'm not going to fly with less than a thousand foot ceilings and three miles of
visibility.

477
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,700
I'm like, well, that's, that's VFR.

478
00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:11,331
That's, that's where you're at as a private pilot.

479
00:39:11,932 --> 00:39:14,503
So what are you planning on doing with this instrument rating?

480
00:39:14,503 --> 00:39:16,203
You know, and that's great.

481
00:39:16,203 --> 00:39:17,634
I'm glad that they're,

482
00:39:17,806 --> 00:39:22,506
demonstrating great aeronautical decision making for the exam.

483
00:39:22,806 --> 00:39:25,286
However, it's just like the airworthiness.

484
00:39:25,286 --> 00:39:32,086
I need to see that you can read the weather because at some point your personal minimums
are going to go below 1,003.

485
00:39:32,086 --> 00:39:37,546
They're going to be 802 and then they're going to be 501 and they're to be 200 and a half.

486
00:39:37,546 --> 00:39:37,786
Right.

487
00:39:37,786 --> 00:39:44,386
As you become a more competent pilot, you're going to reduce your personal minimums.

488
00:39:44,386 --> 00:39:45,624
It's just natural.

489
00:39:45,624 --> 00:39:51,856
That's what we're all expected to do because at some point somebody's paying us to fly
that ILS down to two hundred and a half.

490
00:39:51,856 --> 00:40:04,919
So oh that's why I need to be I need to see you be able to tell talk to me about weather
and more than just a surface level conversation.

491
00:40:05,139 --> 00:40:10,514
I need to be able to see you pull up charts that give you the information that I'm asking
for.

492
00:40:10,514 --> 00:40:14,362
I need you to be able to tell me what that chart is telling you.

493
00:40:15,438 --> 00:40:19,778
describe for me what the weather in this area would look like.

494
00:40:19,778 --> 00:40:20,578
Right.

495
00:40:21,598 --> 00:40:32,498
And just give me paint me a picture of what the weather is going to be in route, because
once you go into the soup and you're in that you're in that gray soup, you have to be able

496
00:40:32,498 --> 00:40:39,098
to interpret what's coming through your ADS-B because a lot of people want to tell me, oh,
well, I have ADS-B weather.

497
00:40:39,098 --> 00:40:39,678
I'm like, great.

498
00:40:39,678 --> 00:40:41,038
What's it telling you?

499
00:40:41,038 --> 00:40:41,818
Paint me a picture.

500
00:40:41,818 --> 00:40:44,458
What do you expect to see at the bottom of this ILS?

501
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,713
How do you think the ride's gonna be near this frontal boundary?

502
00:40:50,133 --> 00:40:53,136
Tell me what you think is gonna happen here.

503
00:40:53,136 --> 00:40:55,217
How are you gonna avoid icing?

504
00:40:56,678 --> 00:41:05,324
I need you to be able to paint that weather picture for me in a way that I can tell you
understand what you're gonna see when you get out there.

505
00:41:06,506 --> 00:41:09,788
And I find weather very important for instrument pilots.

506
00:41:10,549 --> 00:41:12,150
And if you look at my bio,

507
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:18,834
Yes, I have a master's degree in earth science and I do love talking about weather, but I
don't get to that level.

508
00:41:18,834 --> 00:41:22,996
Don't think I'm going to go to college level meteorology class on you.

509
00:41:23,776 --> 00:41:32,981
I do enjoy talking about the weather just because that I studied a lot in college, but I
absolutely just want you to be able to paint a picture.

510
00:41:32,981 --> 00:41:34,792
That's the best way I can put it.

511
00:41:34,926 --> 00:41:35,966
Sure.

512
00:41:36,246 --> 00:41:39,726
Yeah, and that's a good way of putting it.

513
00:41:40,626 --> 00:41:48,446
That analysis is what we're looking for, not the rote memorization of being able to decode
a taff or a metar.

514
00:41:49,426 --> 00:42:00,446
Hey, that's great, but I want you to be able to analyze the weather kind of from a 40,000
foot view and tell me not only what is it doing now, but what might it do?

515
00:42:00,446 --> 00:42:02,746
What are the threats of that weather?

516
00:42:04,022 --> 00:42:10,527
you know, in the future, if we get delayed or, you know, by the time we get to our
destination and all that, all that sort of stuff.

517
00:42:10,527 --> 00:42:22,185
And one of the weak areas I see on instrument is, um, the, from an icing standpoint, I
think a lot of instructors are out there teaching their students to avoid icing, but they

518
00:42:22,185 --> 00:42:27,660
don't really give any teaching or guidance on how to fly in icing conditions.

519
00:42:27,660 --> 00:42:31,382
And just remember your instrument rating allows you to fly

520
00:42:31,498 --> 00:42:40,690
into icing conditions, but it's the aircraft that you're flying that may restrict you from
flying in icing conditions, but not your actual rating.

521
00:42:40,690 --> 00:42:43,381
So, you know, remember that as an instrument student.

522
00:42:43,381 --> 00:42:52,644
And then if you're CFWI, remember that, you know, there is no icing uh endorsement to fly
a flight into known icing equipped aircraft.

523
00:42:52,644 --> 00:42:54,884
There's no endorsement required for that.

524
00:42:55,024 --> 00:43:00,726
So you have to be able to do that with your knowledge that you learned as a, as an
instrument.

525
00:43:00,726 --> 00:43:01,750
uh

526
00:43:01,750 --> 00:43:14,908
student during your instrument writing, there's actually a good advisory circular out
there called 9174 Bravo that's titled, A Pilot's Guide to Flight and Icing Conditions.

527
00:43:14,908 --> 00:43:19,693
So it's actually a really good advisory circular and you can use that.

528
00:43:19,694 --> 00:43:22,616
I do like to get some information out of that advisory circle.

529
00:43:22,616 --> 00:43:27,620
I like to ask people, well, hey, how is clear ice going to affect you?

530
00:43:27,620 --> 00:43:33,325
know, what problems does clear ice pose or as opposed to rhyme icing?

531
00:43:33,806 --> 00:43:36,227
They do different things to your airfoil.

532
00:43:36,227 --> 00:43:42,002
And so it's important to know how that ice is affecting you out there as well.

533
00:43:42,002 --> 00:43:49,728
And so I do actually ask that on the instrument exam, whether you have a feaky airplane
there or not, you know, so.

534
00:43:49,888 --> 00:43:51,875
Just like you said, there's no icing endorsement.

535
00:43:51,875 --> 00:43:52,302
Right.

536
00:43:52,302 --> 00:43:57,886
Alright so that's private and instrument, anything for commercial you'd like to about.

537
00:44:25,644 --> 00:44:32,056
be able to point things out as far as airworthiness that shouldn't be an issue at the
commercial level.

538
00:44:32,797 --> 00:44:41,961
And yes, I do get into human factors a lot with the commercial pilots, mainly because
somebody's paying you to sit in that seat now as opposed to you just up there for

539
00:44:41,961 --> 00:44:43,701
enjoyment or time building.

540
00:44:45,202 --> 00:44:52,609
And so the other thing I like to point out about the commercial certificate, this may be
getting into the flying portion.

541
00:44:52,609 --> 00:44:55,326
I don't know if we want to go there yet or not, but

542
00:44:55,578 --> 00:45:03,924
Um, we can talk about the, there's, there's a way that I like to talk to commercial
students as opposed to private pilot students.

543
00:45:04,085 --> 00:45:16,635
The, I tell people, I'm like, Hey man, you know, there's different maneuvers on the
commercial exam, like the lazy eights and the Shondell and the eights on pylons.

544
00:45:17,016 --> 00:45:24,886
And we're trying to see as examiners, whether you have a grasp of energy management.

545
00:45:24,886 --> 00:45:37,234
and how you want to fly that aircraft and use the available energy to safely take the
aircraft through the maneuver and safely get it back on the ground.

546
00:45:37,835 --> 00:45:41,937
So, a commercial is a lot of energy management.

547
00:45:42,318 --> 00:45:50,283
Private pilot students, when you look at their ground reference maneuvers, theirs is a lot
of wind analysis.

548
00:45:50,283 --> 00:45:54,636
know, can you fly a parallel track down the downwind?

549
00:45:54,636 --> 00:46:00,732
right, and understand the wind that's affecting you so that you can make a proper base
turn on the final.

550
00:46:00,732 --> 00:46:08,028
Can you analyze the wind to increase or decrease your bank angle to do S turns over a
highway, right?

551
00:46:08,028 --> 00:46:19,609
So it's more wind analysis than energy management, whereas the commercial is heavy on
energy management with some wind analysis at the end on the landings, right?

552
00:46:19,609 --> 00:46:21,290
So I like to put that

553
00:46:21,290 --> 00:46:23,572
into two different perspectives.

554
00:46:23,572 --> 00:46:33,451
a lot of times when I say this at CFIDP forums, I do see some light bulbs go off, you
know, because I think there is a misconception that the commercial is a private pilot exam

555
00:46:33,451 --> 00:46:35,102
to stronger standards.

556
00:46:35,483 --> 00:46:36,905
And that's just not the case.

557
00:46:36,905 --> 00:46:44,051
I'm actually looking for a completely different mindset of flying the aircraft on the
commercial than I am on the private.

558
00:46:44,051 --> 00:46:46,494
So I don't know if you see the same thing or not.

559
00:46:46,494 --> 00:46:47,128
Yeah.

560
00:46:47,128 --> 00:46:48,790
Yeah, I've definitely seen that.

561
00:46:48,790 --> 00:46:56,328
And then I've also heard like the CFI ride is just a commercial check ride in the sitting
in the right seat.

562
00:46:56,328 --> 00:46:58,252
You know, I hear that a lot.

563
00:46:58,252 --> 00:47:00,493
Yeah, the flying skills, absolutely.

564
00:47:00,493 --> 00:47:03,043
Yeah, but there's more to it.

565
00:47:03,184 --> 00:47:05,844
I do a lot of multi-engine exams also.

566
00:47:05,844 --> 00:47:09,706
And so um I'm probably very similar to you on that.

567
00:47:09,706 --> 00:47:19,409
So for multi-engine applicants, I just need to make sure that they understand multi-engine
performance, including single engine service ceiling.

568
00:47:19,409 --> 00:47:24,090
I've come across quite a few people that they know what single engine service ceiling is.

569
00:47:24,878 --> 00:47:28,244
Um, and they'll give me the book answer for single engine service ceiling.

570
00:47:28,244 --> 00:47:34,955
you know, what, what the manufacturer advertised it as, but finding today's single engine
service ceiling.

571
00:47:34,955 --> 00:47:39,922
Um, they, uh, they sometimes don't know how to do that.

572
00:47:41,462 --> 00:47:50,695
And so when you're, when you're teaching your student to go through the one engine and
operative aerodynamics, you know, combat, smack phone, pasta, you know, they didn't know

573
00:47:50,695 --> 00:48:00,728
all that stuff to, uh, emergencies, obviously, you know, they need to know which engine is
shut down and, whatnot, but all that's in the aircraft, right?

574
00:48:00,728 --> 00:48:07,269
Before they even get to the aircraft, they have to get to the oral and they have to be
able to tell me that they understand multi-engine performance.

575
00:48:07,310 --> 00:48:09,278
And so, um,

576
00:48:09,278 --> 00:48:17,985
I typically take a student and we talk about today's weather and conditions and what we
expect the aircraft to do for us today, right?

577
00:48:17,985 --> 00:48:20,307
At North Little Rock, for example.

578
00:48:20,307 --> 00:48:22,989
But then I take them and I'm like, all right, cool.

579
00:48:23,290 --> 00:48:31,095
How would all of this change if you and I were on a trip to Colorado Springs and we were
trying to take off out of Colorado Springs?

580
00:48:31,596 --> 00:48:38,902
And I do see some applicants will tell me, our single engine service ceiling is actually

581
00:48:38,958 --> 00:48:45,058
you know, subterranean up here, Colorado Springs is at 6,000 some feet, right?

582
00:48:45,058 --> 00:48:49,458
So if they're seeing engine service ceilings like at 5,000 feet, some of them don't want
to take off.

583
00:48:49,458 --> 00:48:52,738
They're like, well, I don't know if I can take off if I can't climb on one engine for a
little bit.

584
00:48:52,738 --> 00:48:57,238
I'm like, well, you know, would you have a problem taking off in a Cessna 172?

585
00:48:57,238 --> 00:48:58,158
And a lot of them wouldn't.

586
00:48:58,158 --> 00:49:01,738
And I'm like, if you lose that engine, you're just going to glide.

587
00:49:02,998 --> 00:49:06,836
You know, let's talk about what happens when we're in a high density.

588
00:49:06,836 --> 00:49:10,747
altitude airport and we take off with a twin engine plane and we lose one.

589
00:49:10,747 --> 00:49:12,508
What are we going to do then?

590
00:49:12,508 --> 00:49:15,038
uh No, we're not going to climb.

591
00:49:15,038 --> 00:49:15,709
You're right.

592
00:49:15,709 --> 00:49:18,689
Our single engine service is below the ground.

593
00:49:18,809 --> 00:49:21,330
how does that change your takeoff briefing?

594
00:49:21,690 --> 00:49:27,632
How does that change your reaction to an engine failure after takeoff?

595
00:49:27,932 --> 00:49:33,013
Does that change your altitude gates for maneuvering or whatnot?

596
00:49:33,013 --> 00:49:35,500
Make sure that you're going through

597
00:49:35,500 --> 00:49:44,117
not just performance for a flat lander like me, you know, where I live at 400 feet AGL or
400 feet MSL, right?

598
00:49:45,138 --> 00:49:51,063
You know, they can take that twin engine plane and go to Colorado and take off from
Colorado Springs at 6,000 some feet.

599
00:49:51,063 --> 00:49:53,986
So and there's no high altitude endorsement, right?

600
00:49:53,986 --> 00:49:59,771
So you got to you got to be able to understand that performance when I give you the exam.

601
00:49:59,771 --> 00:50:04,264
So when you talk about performance, make sure you're talking about

602
00:50:04,728 --> 00:50:07,432
places they could go in the future.

603
00:50:07,724 --> 00:50:20,985
And I think from speaking to the instructors out there, we seem to be, when I talk to
other DPEs, where we start running into issues is as the instructors, their teaching rote,

604
00:50:21,206 --> 00:50:24,228
and then it might extend up to understanding.

605
00:50:24,749 --> 00:50:33,026
And then on a lot of stuff, sure, it's that application, but what we're really going for
is that highest kind of level of learning that you learned about in the FOIs, which is

606
00:50:33,026 --> 00:50:34,237
correlation.

607
00:50:34,890 --> 00:50:46,998
As an instructor, you need to be thinking about, if I'm gonna teach this student about the
single engine service ceiling of the multi, what's the highest level, how can I correlate

608
00:50:46,998 --> 00:50:52,762
that with other aspects of flying this aircraft that I've already taught?

609
00:50:52,782 --> 00:50:59,367
And that's why we use scenario-based training is because it forces you to correlate that
information.

610
00:50:59,367 --> 00:51:04,040
So an example here would be saying, hey, you're flying at

611
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:13,315
at 12,000 feet or let's say 13,500 feet, your VFR flying your twin, ah and you lose an
engine.

612
00:51:13,476 --> 00:51:17,769
So just talking about that scenario, I'm gonna have to correlate a lot of data, right?

613
00:51:17,769 --> 00:51:28,505
I'm gonna have to talk about oxygen usage, the airspace that I'm in, what's gonna happen
to the airplane, what it's gonna go into a forced descent, because it can't maintain

614
00:51:28,505 --> 00:51:30,026
13,000 more than likely on a...

615
00:51:30,208 --> 00:51:35,902
on most light twins, know, the single engine service ceiling would probably be somewhere
around 6,000, you know.

616
00:51:35,902 --> 00:51:37,473
So now you're in this forced descent.

617
00:51:37,473 --> 00:51:42,907
So now you have to be able to talk to ATC and coordinate a descent.

618
00:51:42,907 --> 00:51:45,339
You have to figure out, where's my best alternate?

619
00:51:45,339 --> 00:51:46,930
Is there, is there weather below me?

620
00:51:46,930 --> 00:51:51,373
If so, do I have personal minimums for a single engine approach?

621
00:51:51,373 --> 00:51:55,158
You know, is that going to change my decision on where I'm going to go?

622
00:51:55,158 --> 00:51:58,438
ah And then you get into the

623
00:51:58,870 --> 00:52:06,596
checklist kind of usage and the system malfunction piece of it, you have to correlate
that.

624
00:52:06,596 --> 00:52:10,960
you know, it all touches one another and that's that correlation we're going for.

625
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,323
So when I ask a student, well, what does single engine service ceiling mean?

626
00:52:15,424 --> 00:52:17,065
First of all, I probably won't ask it like that.

627
00:52:17,065 --> 00:52:20,828
I'll probably ask it in terms of a scenario like I just described.

628
00:52:20,928 --> 00:52:28,564
And if you don't, if you just understand single engine service ceiling from a rote
standpoint, you're not going to do well on that question.

629
00:52:28,940 --> 00:52:39,439
So as a CFI, you need to think about how can I correlate the single engine service ceiling
data that I'm teaching to the other parts of Flying the Twin that are gonna be useful and

630
00:52:39,439 --> 00:52:42,504
make my student a better pilot.

631
00:52:43,054 --> 00:52:44,074
That's right.

632
00:52:45,555 --> 00:52:50,557
a lot of it comes to instructors wanting to teach just to pass an exam.

633
00:52:50,557 --> 00:52:59,902
And you really need to make sure that you're teaching your student how to succeed as a
pilot overall, right?

634
00:52:59,902 --> 00:53:02,023
This isn't about an exam.

635
00:53:02,023 --> 00:53:06,425
I tell people when I sit down for an exam, like, hey man, I'm not a gatekeeper.

636
00:53:06,425 --> 00:53:09,516
I'm not here to just say certain people can get through here.

637
00:53:10,162 --> 00:53:16,688
I'm here just to apply the standards if it has an ACS and to go watch you fly and have
some fun today.

638
00:53:16,688 --> 00:53:23,844
But I also want to make sure that you're going to be a successful and safe pilot because
you may be my airline pilot one day, right?

639
00:53:23,844 --> 00:53:30,120
I may be trusting you to get on the Skywest airplane and fly to Dallas, you know?

640
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:31,741
I want to make sure you know what you're doing.

641
00:53:31,741 --> 00:53:37,442
uh You know, I may see you across the ramp one day.

642
00:53:37,442 --> 00:53:49,816
doing young eagles flights with small kids, you know, I really look at these exams as I'm
just making sure that the quality of the product coming through my exam room is going to

643
00:53:49,816 --> 00:53:57,228
be safe when that pilot steps into the aircraft as the PIC after that exam that day.

644
00:53:58,428 --> 00:54:01,929
It's it's really it's really humbling when you think of it that way.

645
00:54:01,929 --> 00:54:04,290
And I tried couch it in that.

646
00:54:04,890 --> 00:54:05,760
Like.

647
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,152
mindset right off the bat from the beginning of the exam.

648
00:54:09,152 --> 00:54:13,335
It's like, Hey, look, man, I'm just, I'm here just to watch you do these tasks.

649
00:54:13,335 --> 00:54:22,341
But I'm, I'm tasked with making a determination on whether you're going to be a successful
pilot, given the information level you have now, you know?

650
00:54:22,341 --> 00:54:35,618
And so, uh, it's really about safety and it's about the growth of our community and
industry, uh, making sure that, um, if, if you're going to the exam.

651
00:54:35,618 --> 00:54:36,898
that you're going to pass.

652
00:54:36,898 --> 00:54:41,741
uh Are you just going to pass that exam or are you actually going to be a successful
pilot?

653
00:54:41,741 --> 00:54:53,515
Because every accident that we have after the exam, know, obviously these pilots that are
flying around, you know, we are all susceptible to having an accident.

654
00:54:53,515 --> 00:55:05,516
But if there was any way that we could find that deficiency before that pilot's out in the
system, then that's, that's what we're here for.

655
00:55:05,516 --> 00:55:15,716
We're here to make sure that once you move on and you get that certificate that uh you're
confident that you're going to be a safe pilot and a successful pilot and that I'm

656
00:55:15,716 --> 00:55:19,259
confident that I'm going to hear great things about you in the future, right?

657
00:55:19,259 --> 00:55:22,882
So that's really the mindset I go into the exam with.

658
00:55:23,403 --> 00:55:31,690
And I like to pass that along to the CFIs is that, you uh your applicants are

659
00:55:31,734 --> 00:55:35,016
your future first officer is when you're a captain at the airlines.

660
00:55:35,016 --> 00:55:41,499
When you're a captain at that regional, the people that you're teaching how to fly right
now are probably going to be your first officer.

661
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,522
So what kind of first officer do you want sitting beside you?

662
00:55:45,522 --> 00:55:48,483
You know, that's, that's really what you're looking for.

663
00:55:48,504 --> 00:55:57,699
And then, you know, at some point when you've moved on far enough into the career path
like me, where I'm about to retire from the air force, I have a son this morning, how to

664
00:55:57,699 --> 00:56:00,150
fly, um, you know,

665
00:56:00,406 --> 00:56:09,893
the instructors that you are teaching now are going to be the instructors that could teach
a family member of yours or a friend's family, right?

666
00:56:09,893 --> 00:56:18,219
So how do you want them to approach aviation?

667
00:56:18,219 --> 00:56:18,830
You know what mean?

668
00:56:18,830 --> 00:56:24,404
Do you want them to approach as passing a test or do you want them approached to be a
successful pilot?

669
00:56:24,404 --> 00:56:27,480
And that's really what it boils down to in my mind.

670
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,551
Yeah, those are all great ways to put it.

671
00:56:30,551 --> 00:56:32,912
It really drives that point home.

672
00:56:33,532 --> 00:56:40,395
So we've talked about admin, we've talked about the oral exam for a few different ratings.

673
00:56:40,395 --> 00:56:48,334
If you want, you want to take any time to talk about any maneuvers that you're seeing or
deficiencies in the actual flight portion of the checkride?

674
00:56:48,334 --> 00:56:59,474
My portion, like I said, with the private and the commercial, know, I really, the private
pilot portion, private pilot applicants, this is their first exam.

675
00:57:00,254 --> 00:57:04,393
They really, they really don't know what they don't know about the exam, right?

676
00:57:04,393 --> 00:57:08,674
It's the first time they've had this weird guy getting the airplane with them with a
checklist.

677
00:57:08,674 --> 00:57:10,714
It's like watching them do all these circus tricks.

678
00:57:10,714 --> 00:57:11,814
That's what you like to call them.

679
00:57:11,814 --> 00:57:13,674
I like that term.

680
00:57:14,434 --> 00:57:17,674
And so just make sure.

681
00:57:17,698 --> 00:57:28,574
that they understand that when they're signed off, that you're signing them off saying
that they are meeting the ACS standards, right?

682
00:57:28,574 --> 00:57:34,748
So then it really, I, as the examiner, really do become just quality assurance.

683
00:57:34,828 --> 00:57:36,979
I'm just there to make sure what you said was true.

684
00:57:36,979 --> 00:57:38,724
That's it.

685
00:57:38,724 --> 00:57:40,551
When you boil it down that way.

686
00:57:40,551 --> 00:57:45,506
If you're trying to sign your applicant off, you know, hoping that they pass,

687
00:57:45,506 --> 00:57:51,211
That's really not the mentality you need to have when you send a guy or gal to an exam.

688
00:57:51,211 --> 00:57:57,926
You need to, you need to be sending them to the exam saying, yes, they've met the ACS
standards for the tasks here.

689
00:57:57,926 --> 00:58:01,359
Um, and I'm confident they're going to pass.

690
00:58:01,780 --> 00:58:07,444
Sometimes I don't get that vibe from the applicant on the other side of the table.

691
00:58:07,444 --> 00:58:14,732
Um, but, I just, I, I just want instructors to understand that when they're

692
00:58:14,732 --> 00:58:19,033
when they're doing maneuvers and they're teaching maneuvers, there are a ton of different
techniques out there.

693
00:58:19,033 --> 00:58:33,197
But if you teach them to the skill set for that particular maneuver, like steep turns, if
they know skill one, skill two, skill three, and they can repeat that and they're

694
00:58:33,197 --> 00:58:36,898
proficient at it, I just go, hey man, let's do steep turns.

695
00:58:36,898 --> 00:58:37,828
Okay, great.

696
00:58:37,828 --> 00:58:39,509
Let's go do steep turns.

697
00:58:39,509 --> 00:58:44,620
they set themselves up, they clear the area and they go into the maneuver.

698
00:58:45,498 --> 00:58:50,320
like they've practiced it a hundred times, they're probably going to be just fine.

699
00:58:50,320 --> 00:59:01,603
But if you're not teaching them to that skill set that's in the ACS for steep turns, if
you're just teaching them a technique because that's how you were taught and your

700
00:59:01,603 --> 00:59:11,165
instructor was taught that way by somebody, then oftentimes there's going to be a
misunderstanding of what I'm looking for.

701
00:59:11,598 --> 00:59:14,496
Now, I've actually asked for maneuvers before where

702
00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:27,334
I asked the gentleman one time to do turns around a point and I don't know if it was a if
it was he just had a moment in his brain or if he actually wasn't taught how to do turns

703
00:59:27,334 --> 00:59:38,918
around a point but the young man looked at me and he said sir I don't know what you're
asking for and I said well it's a task in the ACS so it's it's turns around a point so I

704
00:59:38,918 --> 00:59:40,568
can't tell you how to do it

705
00:59:40,568 --> 00:59:46,802
but this is the maneuver where you usually find something like a barn or a house and you
just fly a circle around it.

706
00:59:46,802 --> 00:59:49,523
And there's certain skills that I have to see accomplished with that.

707
00:59:49,523 --> 00:59:52,144
But at some point you should have done this.

708
00:59:52,144 --> 00:59:53,995
And he kind of looked at me with this blank stare.

709
00:59:53,995 --> 00:59:55,956
He goes, I'd really rather do S turns.

710
00:59:55,956 --> 01:00:03,530
And I'm like, well, I kind of need to see the turns around a point now since I may have
found a deficiency, you know?

711
01:00:03,691 --> 01:00:06,732
And so, uh yeah.

712
01:00:07,033 --> 01:00:08,854
And that didn't go well that day.

713
01:00:08,854 --> 01:00:09,814
uh

714
01:00:09,814 --> 01:00:15,547
And I felt bad for the guy because I had asked for something and he had no idea what I was
asking about.

715
01:00:15,547 --> 01:00:19,798
And I'm like, man, that's that really stinks for you, man.

716
01:00:19,798 --> 01:00:29,313
you know, I I sometimes, uh you know, wish I could go back and be like, well, you know, we
won't do that one.

717
01:00:29,313 --> 01:00:31,964
But the ACS doesn't allow me to do that.

718
01:00:31,964 --> 01:00:37,546
You know, and back to what I was saying before, you're to be a successful pilot if you
don't know that.

719
01:00:37,750 --> 01:00:46,043
If you don't know the maneuver I'm asking for, then there may be other giant gaps in your
knowledge in the ACS that we're going to uncover eventually.

720
01:00:46,043 --> 01:00:49,994
So let's just go on back to the, let's just go on and call that one bad.

721
01:00:50,335 --> 01:00:52,355
You know, would you like to do anything else today?

722
01:00:52,355 --> 01:00:57,617
If not, let's go on back to the airport and let's get you some more training so that you
can be a successful pilot.

723
01:00:57,617 --> 01:00:58,477
Right.

724
01:00:59,010 --> 01:00:59,694
So.

725
01:00:59,694 --> 01:01:05,174
Yeah, the one I run into that's similar to that is in power on and power off stalls.

726
01:01:05,694 --> 01:01:09,754
The ACS allows the maneuver to be done in a bank.

727
01:01:10,354 --> 01:01:17,274
yeah, and, and man, I've more times than I'd like I've asked the applicant.

728
01:01:17,274 --> 01:01:20,674
I give it, I call it my 2020, 20 maneuvers.

729
01:01:20,674 --> 01:01:29,478
So 20 degrees nose high, 20 degrees angle of bank and 20 inches of manifold pressure or,
or 2000 RPMs, know, 20.

730
01:01:29,818 --> 01:01:32,440
Um, that's what I asked for.

731
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:47,108
And they'll look at me like I'm asking them to, uh, you know, roll inverted into a split S
like they, they have never practiced a, uh, a turning stall before.

732
01:01:47,808 --> 01:01:53,842
And, and they wind up, most of them wind up figuring out, I'm like, well, it's just a
stall we're doing in a bank.

733
01:01:53,842 --> 01:01:56,954
And they're like, okay, to be honest, I've never done this.

734
01:01:56,954 --> 01:01:58,004
I was like, well,

735
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,613
If you don't think you can do it, we'll have to call it a disapproval.

736
01:02:01,613 --> 01:02:05,535
But if you can do this correctly, then we'll just move on.

737
01:02:05,856 --> 01:02:07,668
And most of them can do it correctly.

738
01:02:07,668 --> 01:02:08,969
And we come back and we debrief.

739
01:02:08,969 --> 01:02:12,241
And I'm like, hey, uh what happened there?

740
01:02:12,241 --> 01:02:20,738
Why did we not ever, and I'm speaking to the instructor at that point, why did we not ever
practice turning stalls?

741
01:02:20,738 --> 01:02:22,990
Because they're in the ACS.

742
01:02:23,130 --> 01:02:25,132
That's a maneuver that can be done.

743
01:02:25,132 --> 01:02:28,104
And also, just from a practical standpoint,

744
01:02:28,448 --> 01:02:32,544
I asked the instructors, what's the most deadly place to get a stall?

745
01:02:32,544 --> 01:02:34,797
And almost 100 % say base to final.

746
01:02:34,797 --> 01:02:37,452
They're like, okay, is that in a turn?

747
01:02:37,452 --> 01:02:38,803
And they're like, yeah.

748
01:02:38,803 --> 01:02:42,168
I was like, so don't you think we should be training turning stalls?

749
01:02:42,168 --> 01:02:44,251
And they're like, well, that's a good point.

750
01:02:44,251 --> 01:02:44,910
Yeah.

751
01:02:44,910 --> 01:02:45,640
It's in the name.

752
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,191
It's a base turn stall.

753
01:02:47,191 --> 01:02:47,591
Yeah.

754
01:02:47,591 --> 01:02:50,582
I'm like, what do mean you haven't done them in a turn before?

755
01:02:50,582 --> 01:02:50,963
Yeah.

756
01:02:50,963 --> 01:02:52,713
I found the same thing.

757
01:02:52,773 --> 01:02:54,474
That goes back to that correlation, right?

758
01:02:54,474 --> 01:02:54,822
Yeah.

759
01:02:54,822 --> 01:03:00,026
You can, you can do these straight level, pull the power back, you know, make a decent and
then pull up on the nose.

760
01:03:00,026 --> 01:03:06,659
Nobody, I shouldn't say nobody, but very rarely do hear about a stall about a guy on final
trying to extend it like that.

761
01:03:06,659 --> 01:03:09,080
I mean, it's, it's usually a base turn stall.

762
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,092
Like you said, that's, that's the, that's where people get bit.

763
01:03:12,092 --> 01:03:13,492
And so, yeah.

764
01:03:13,496 --> 01:03:14,727
You need to know how to get out of that stall.

765
01:03:14,727 --> 01:03:17,799
And not every stall in a turn is going to turn into a spin either, right?

766
01:03:17,799 --> 01:03:22,752
So especially if you're coordinated, it's not really going to do anything.

767
01:03:24,174 --> 01:03:25,685
Nothing out of the ordinary, right?

768
01:03:25,685 --> 01:03:30,052
yeah, absolutely.

769
01:03:30,052 --> 01:03:31,759
You need to be showing them real world stuff.

770
01:03:31,759 --> 01:03:41,656
So for the instrument portion, uh you know, a lot of guys want me to give them the
approaches, you know,

771
01:03:41,656 --> 01:03:43,247
two, three, four days ahead of time.

772
01:03:43,247 --> 01:03:47,588
And I'm like, well, I think I said it in your discord, actually.

773
01:03:47,588 --> 01:03:52,450
said, you know, I actually have three different profiles and I can do them.

774
01:03:52,450 --> 01:04:03,755
uh I can adjust those profiles uh depending on what kind of equipment you have, whether
you have a watch GPS or non watch GPS or no IFR GPS at all.

775
01:04:03,755 --> 01:04:04,020
Right.

776
01:04:04,020 --> 01:04:09,966
And I've given instrument, I still have given instrument exams with no GPS approaches
because they don't have a.

777
01:04:10,378 --> 01:04:12,339
instrument GPS in the aircraft.

778
01:04:12,339 --> 01:04:20,922
So, um, lot of times I tell them, Hey, I can't give you the approaches ahead of time
because I don't know which way the wind is going to blow that day.

779
01:04:20,922 --> 01:04:28,506
Or, you know, I don't know how we're going to be able to integrate with traffic, you know,
and I'd hate to give you three approaches and then change them on you.

780
01:04:28,506 --> 01:04:36,509
You know, so, um, I don't, I don't like, uh, teaching the instrument exam.

781
01:04:36,509 --> 01:04:39,550
You know, you need to teach how to.

782
01:04:39,744 --> 01:04:49,977
adapt to different approaches because you can plan all day that you're going to fly the
ILS into uh wherever airport, right?

783
01:04:49,977 --> 01:04:54,366
But if the wind changes or the ILS goes down, Hey, guess what?

784
01:04:54,366 --> 01:04:59,520
You're going to have to fly a VOR to a crossing runway in circle.

785
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,561
know, those changes happen in real life.

786
01:05:02,561 --> 01:05:07,602
I've actually been on an approach or been on a star going into Houston and the C-130.

787
01:05:07,948 --> 01:05:13,111
And I've been given three different approaches to expect as the weather's changing.

788
01:05:13,111 --> 01:05:13,881
Right.

789
01:05:13,881 --> 01:05:16,923
So that kind of stuff happens all the time.

790
01:05:16,923 --> 01:05:21,215
And again, you're in the soup, you're flying in an airplane, you can't pull over and look
at the map again.

791
01:05:21,215 --> 01:05:28,169
Like you need to be able to adapt how you're flying that day to the approaches that are
handed to you.

792
01:05:28,389 --> 01:05:31,134
And I do hand them the approaches after the oral.

793
01:05:31,134 --> 01:05:33,672
So we get through the oral and I'm like, all right, cool.

794
01:05:34,032 --> 01:05:35,818
Here's the approaches we're going to do.

795
01:05:35,818 --> 01:05:37,984
And here's where we're going to do our whole.

796
01:05:38,060 --> 01:05:42,163
And then we're going to do, you know, our unusual attitudes.

797
01:05:42,163 --> 01:05:45,616
Like I give them the whole layout right before we walk out to the airplane.

798
01:05:45,616 --> 01:05:48,378
And so you, and I tell them, Hey, you have your time.

799
01:05:48,378 --> 01:05:56,185
got my headset and I'm ready to go to the airplane whenever you are no rush, but look over
those approach plates and you know, tell me when you're ready to go fly.

800
01:05:56,185 --> 01:06:08,114
oh And that makes some people extremely nervous and then other people excel because
they've, they've been taught uh ways to brief themselves on approach plates.

801
01:06:08,450 --> 01:06:10,531
You know, instrument flying is very procedural.

802
01:06:10,531 --> 01:06:15,715
So it really doesn't change from one approach to the other.

803
01:06:15,715 --> 01:06:20,388
How you configure your plane, when you configure your plane, it's extremely procedural.

804
01:06:20,388 --> 01:06:21,199
Yeah.

805
01:06:21,199 --> 01:06:23,341
So you should be able to replicate that.

806
01:06:23,341 --> 01:06:23,661
Yeah.

807
01:06:23,661 --> 01:06:26,352
You should be able to replicate that no matter what I throw at you.

808
01:06:26,352 --> 01:06:27,243
Right.

809
01:06:27,303 --> 01:06:32,647
So, um, and it's not like I'm giving it to you in the airplane, like we're flying along
and we're like, all right, next is going to be this.

810
01:06:32,647 --> 01:06:34,088
You had no idea, but here it is.

811
01:06:34,088 --> 01:06:37,070
No, I give them all ahead of time, ground speed zero.

812
01:06:37,070 --> 01:06:41,370
Let them let them read it, you know, 10, 15 minutes and then we get in the airplane and
go.

813
01:06:41,810 --> 01:06:43,950
So just be ready for that.

814
01:06:43,950 --> 01:06:46,290
If you have an exam with me, that's that's how I handle it.

815
01:06:46,290 --> 01:06:47,210
It's not I'm trying.

816
01:06:47,210 --> 01:06:51,090
I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that or withhold information.

817
01:06:51,090 --> 01:06:59,530
I honestly don't know until I'm sitting there that day looking at the current winds and
weather so that I don't get in the way of other traffic at these uncontrolled fields we're

818
01:06:59,530 --> 01:07:00,890
going to.

819
01:07:00,890 --> 01:07:03,410
So I like to play nice with other people.

820
01:07:03,410 --> 01:07:03,978
Yeah.

821
01:07:03,978 --> 01:07:14,921
And even then, man, I would hate for somebody to get a disapproval on an instrument check
ride because we had to make maybe a last minute change airborne.

822
01:07:14,921 --> 01:07:17,412
Maybe the last approach, the ILS is out.

823
01:07:17,412 --> 01:07:22,643
Well, we've got to go to this new field to go do an ILS that we didn't even talk about or
brief.

824
01:07:23,063 --> 01:07:32,386
And you either can't do the approach correctly or mess it up because the only approaches
you can do is if you go out and practice them first.

825
01:07:32,586 --> 01:07:37,710
And that probably just means that you're not quite proficient enough to be an instrument
pilot yet.

826
01:07:39,412 --> 01:07:51,001
yeah, I mean, you, need to be able to flex to a new procedure that you've never really
studied before and, brief it in a timely fashion in the aircraft and fly it safely.

827
01:07:51,001 --> 01:07:54,885
That's kind of a basic skill that an instrument pilot needs to be able to do.

828
01:07:54,885 --> 01:08:02,090
So if, if you feel like you can't fly approaches without having extensive amounts of time
to study them.

829
01:08:02,358 --> 01:08:05,183
then you probably need some more practice.

830
01:08:05,260 --> 01:08:06,110
Yeah.

831
01:08:06,451 --> 01:08:19,940
So with the last one, the multi-engine, I like to tell people ahead of time during the
briefing, like, hey, I don't need to see how fast you can shut down an engine.

832
01:08:20,441 --> 01:08:25,504
I just need to see that you could shut down the correct engine the correct way.

833
01:08:25,645 --> 01:08:26,565
Right.

834
01:08:28,086 --> 01:08:29,787
And I use a technique.

835
01:08:29,868 --> 01:08:33,110
I give them a technique just like I have in the C130.

836
01:08:34,838 --> 01:08:40,381
when we've had to shut down quite a few engines, because I fly the H model, so I fly the
older one, right?

837
01:08:40,381 --> 01:08:46,044
So we do have to shut down engines pretty often.

838
01:08:46,044 --> 01:08:47,215
Some people think it's often.

839
01:08:47,215 --> 01:08:53,188
I've shut down two this calendar year so far, flying the C-130H.

840
01:08:53,188 --> 01:08:57,030
So I've already had two engine shutdowns this year since January.

841
01:08:57,030 --> 01:09:02,293
uh Some of them are mostly for the prop, because our prop is pretty complex.

842
01:09:02,293 --> 01:09:04,290
uh

843
01:09:04,290 --> 01:09:10,392
You know, when you find a problem with the engine, you're like, hey, yeah, that RPM is
fluctuating pretty, pretty bad.

844
01:09:10,392 --> 01:09:12,973
We might be losing the prop governor on this thing.

845
01:09:12,973 --> 01:09:15,753
So, yeah, I guess we're going to have to shut it down.

846
01:09:15,753 --> 01:09:17,994
That's about how fast I think about that.

847
01:09:17,994 --> 01:09:19,755
It's not like, no, there's something wrong.

848
01:09:19,755 --> 01:09:21,675
Start throwing levers, right?

849
01:09:21,695 --> 01:09:23,416
No, it's hey, check that out.

850
01:09:23,416 --> 01:09:25,376
The RPMs bouncing around.

851
01:09:25,416 --> 01:09:26,927
Yeah, confirm it.

852
01:09:26,927 --> 01:09:27,857
Let's confirm that.

853
01:09:27,857 --> 01:09:29,888
Yeah, that's that's that's not going to be good.

854
01:09:29,888 --> 01:09:31,558
We need to shut that engine down.

855
01:09:32,270 --> 01:09:35,690
Then I sit there and I take a breath and I go, cool, it's time to shut down the engine.

856
01:09:35,690 --> 01:09:41,870
And then I reach up and then I start, you know, pulling levers back, pull one lever back
at a time.

857
01:09:41,870 --> 01:09:42,310
Cool.

858
01:09:42,310 --> 01:09:43,190
Hey, look outside.

859
01:09:43,190 --> 01:09:44,230
Did the prop stop turning?

860
01:09:44,230 --> 01:09:44,630
Yep.

861
01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:44,950
Cool.

862
01:09:44,950 --> 01:09:45,190
All right.

863
01:09:45,190 --> 01:09:45,730
Next lever.

864
01:09:45,730 --> 01:09:46,450
Yeah.

865
01:09:46,570 --> 01:09:50,530
Just walk through it in a methodical way.

866
01:09:50,530 --> 01:09:52,890
It's not a race.

867
01:09:53,730 --> 01:09:58,950
Very few things in aviation do we have to do in an absolute instant.

868
01:09:58,950 --> 01:09:59,890
Right.

869
01:10:00,812 --> 01:10:05,324
Maybe a spin recovery would be something that I need you to do very, very quickly.

870
01:10:06,224 --> 01:10:16,028
But shutting down an engine on a twin engine plane, you have a second or two between each
step to just kind of breathe and think about the next step.

871
01:10:17,589 --> 01:10:28,044
I don't have too many uh disapprovals on the multi-engine exam from the flying portion,
except for people that want to grab the wrong engine, right?

872
01:10:28,044 --> 01:10:28,894
So.

873
01:10:29,484 --> 01:10:32,505
What ends up happening is I like to use both engines, right?

874
01:10:32,505 --> 01:10:36,176
I like to go after both engines through the exam just to test this.

875
01:10:36,536 --> 01:10:43,338
Some people only know how to shut down the left engine, the critical engine or whatever it
happens to be for that plane, right?

876
01:10:43,738 --> 01:10:45,677
So they practice that left engine all the time.

877
01:10:45,677 --> 01:10:46,099
Cool.

878
01:10:46,099 --> 01:10:48,539
The first engine that gives you probably going to be left.

879
01:10:48,599 --> 01:10:51,540
Well, the next engine I give you is probably going to be right.

880
01:10:51,540 --> 01:10:53,801
OK, just because I want to see you.

881
01:10:53,801 --> 01:10:57,102
I want to see that you can shut down both engines, not just one.

882
01:10:57,102 --> 01:10:58,002
Right.

883
01:10:59,232 --> 01:11:09,662
And so I do find some people that they rush, they start grabbing left engine levers and
they start trying to shut down the quote operative engine at the time.

884
01:11:09,662 --> 01:11:14,557
And I just tell people ahead of time before we even get to the airplane, look, this is not
a race.

885
01:11:14,557 --> 01:11:16,378
don't need to see it done fast.

886
01:11:16,378 --> 01:11:18,380
I just need to see it done right.

887
01:11:18,561 --> 01:11:20,582
So I don't know if you're the same way or not.

888
01:11:20,748 --> 01:11:29,164
Yeah, you know, the phrase I use is the worst thing you can do, and pretty much any
airplane, is the wrong thing too fast.

889
01:11:29,164 --> 01:11:31,053
Yes, that's a good one.

890
01:11:31,053 --> 01:11:31,816
like that one.

891
01:11:31,816 --> 01:11:45,806
Moving fast is seldom a good thing and these emergency procedures aren't uh as emergent as
you would think.

892
01:11:45,806 --> 01:11:51,783
Even an engine fire, seems to be everybody's really afraid of an engine fire.

893
01:11:51,783 --> 01:11:54,261
I always say the engine's always on fire.

894
01:11:54,342 --> 01:11:58,934
When you have an engine fire, it just means the fire got somewhere where it's not supposed
to be.

895
01:11:58,934 --> 01:11:59,901
got out.

896
01:12:00,706 --> 01:12:02,427
Your engine's always on fire.

897
01:12:02,427 --> 01:12:07,791
So I mean, your engine compartment, you know, there's sleeves, there are firewalls.

898
01:12:08,012 --> 01:12:11,635
Everything's up there is built to kind of be on fire.

899
01:12:11,635 --> 01:12:21,302
And if you have an engine fire, handling it calmly, it could be the difference between
life or death.

900
01:12:21,503 --> 01:12:27,728
And uh if you panic in that situation, you could easily make things a lot worse.

901
01:12:27,728 --> 01:12:30,950
And that's pretty much true in any uh

902
01:12:30,986 --> 01:12:33,207
any engine failure situation.

903
01:12:33,207 --> 01:12:42,229
like with a twin, for instance, if you look out and you see your engines on fire in your
twin engine aircraft, yeah, that's a significant emotional event, right?

904
01:12:42,229 --> 01:12:44,010
That's kind of scary.

905
01:12:44,010 --> 01:12:48,211
But if you panic at that point, you're just going to make things worse.

906
01:12:48,271 --> 01:13:00,094
If all you do is kind of take a deep breath and act deliberately, know, slow as smooth,
smooth as fast, kind of have that mentality, you're going to be fine.

907
01:13:00,258 --> 01:13:06,101
that fire is not going to burn the wing off as long as you get to it in a reasonable
amount of time.

908
01:13:06,101 --> 01:13:07,482
It's not a race.

909
01:13:07,482 --> 01:13:13,496
So yeah, I like you saying, you know, telling them, Hey, it's not a race to see how
quickly you can get it shut down.

910
01:13:13,496 --> 01:13:21,198
It's, it's to see that you can do it accurately and, know, follow the checklist procedures
and all that.

911
01:13:21,198 --> 01:13:26,247
Hopefully that's some good insight for your audience.

912
01:13:26,247 --> 01:13:30,034
um I've had a good time talking with you today about this.

913
01:13:30,034 --> 01:13:31,336
This has been fun.

914
01:13:32,268 --> 01:13:34,919
Yeah, I'm glad you joined us.

915
01:13:34,919 --> 01:13:39,721
I definitely learned some stuff and I'm sure the audience did as well.

916
01:13:39,781 --> 01:13:43,443
It's always good talking to you and we'll have to have you back on.

917
01:13:43,443 --> 01:13:53,207
I'm anxious to see how the listeners like this type of format and we hope to keep doing it
with other examiners, but definitely have you back.

918
01:13:53,207 --> 01:14:01,740
So, you know, if you run into something in a few months, it's like, man, I'd really like
to get the word out to CFI is where I'm seeing this.

919
01:14:01,774 --> 01:14:07,520
trend maybe, kind like we do in the Air Force where we do trend analysis.

920
01:14:07,721 --> 01:14:18,773
We do trend analysis to see where all the Q3s and Q2s coming from and that's Air Force
speak for basically checkride failures and we try to put in a correction.

921
01:14:18,773 --> 01:14:22,116
So yeah, if you see that, let me know and we'll have you back on.

922
01:14:22,116 --> 01:14:23,756
But it's been great talking to you.

923
01:14:23,756 --> 01:14:28,456
Yeah, if you want to do a deep dive on a particular certificate one day, I don't mind
doing that either.

924
01:14:28,456 --> 01:14:31,832
We kind of brushed across two certificates and two ratings that are common.

925
01:14:31,832 --> 01:14:34,969
You know, if you want to do a deep dive, I'm down with that too, man.

926
01:14:34,969 --> 01:14:35,950
That'd be great.

927
01:14:35,950 --> 01:14:37,225
Well, we'll have to do that.

928
01:14:37,225 --> 01:14:38,761
So, well, thanks again.

929
01:14:38,761 --> 01:14:41,375
Look forward to talking to you again and take care.

930
01:14:41,375 --> 01:14:42,878
Yeah, thanks for having me on Seth.

931
01:14:42,878 --> 01:14:43,699
This has been great.

932
01:14:43,699 --> 01:14:47,747
I've been listening to you for a while and now I'm on your podcast.

933
01:14:47,747 --> 01:14:50,172
That's awesome Been fun.

934
01:14:50,172 --> 01:14:51,159
Thank you so much

935
01:14:51,159 --> 01:14:52,415
it was great to have you on here.

936
01:14:52,415 --> 01:14:53,557
Thanks, Adam.