Jad and FayFay Talk "Fela Kuti: Fear No Man"

This is Sound School. I’m Rob. 

Music – Fela Kuti “Colonial Mentality” (fades under) 

I clearly remember the first time I heard Fela. The Nigerian saxophone player. He startled my ears. What the hell is that? 

It was 1982. I was 20. I just started volunteering at the University of Hartford radio station and I was trying to get my musical bearings. I was all punk rock, 24/7. But, this station cracked me wide open. DJs played music I didn’t even know was possible. 

One day I was listening to a world music show and the host played this tune by Fela. “Colonial Mentality.” From the album “Black President.” I didn’t understand what Fela was singing about. That would come later. But, in that moment? Wow. Who is this guy and what is this music? 

Music – Fela Kuti “Colonial Mentality” (fades under)

Fast forward to 2025. I’d become a Fela fan and was eager to be the first in line to listen to the podcast from Audible called “Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.” Especially because it was produced by Jad Abumrad of Radiolab fame along with FayFay Odudu, a Nigerian producer. She had had done some work for Radio Workshop, a South African podcast I’ve worked with. So, I figured in the hands of Jad and FayFay the podcast would one of the best. Turns out. It was. 

The New Yorker thought so too. They named it the best of 2025. The series received a slew of other accolades from the New York Times, The Atlantic, and The Guardian. Most recently, “Fela Kuti: Fear No Man” earned a Peabody Award. 

On this episode of Sound School, Jad and FayFay are going to talk extensively about the making of the podcast. But, before they do, let’s listen to the opening of the series just so you get a sense of the sound of the podcast, another taste of Fela’s music, and why Fela’s story is SO rich it deserved to be 8 and half hours long over 12 episodes – not including the bonus 13th episode! 

Here are the first few minutes of the series. 

Clip - Jad Abumrad - In a world that is on fire, what do we do with art? Like what can music do? Can it actually change things? Like really change the world? Let's find out. In this series, we're going to look at the life and the music of Fela Kuti. 

Montage - Fela Anikulapo Kuti… Fela Anikulopo Kuti… Anikapol, I always get that, my tongue always strips over that. Anikulapo Kuti 

Jad Abumrad - The father of Afrobeat. 

Speaker 3- The Black President, the Chief Priest. 

Jad Abumrad - I'm going to argue that Fela is one of the most influential musicians of the 20th century. From one of most important countries that we in the West rarely think about, but should, Nigeria, he created an entirely new form of music that not only mixes jazz and funk and all these things, but also layers in resistance, bakes it in. Fela answers those questions about music and art in ways that are beautiful and troubling and profound. And I'm not the only one who thinks this. Here's a quick list. Ayo Adabri, actor, writer, someone I really respect, she's in The Bear, great show, on some red carpet somewhere, she was asked. 

Ayo Adabri - Oh 

Jad Abumrad - this question. 

Ayo Adabri - A musician I have a cult-like fascination with. 

Jad Abumrad - Her answer? 

Ayo Adabri - Fela Kuti, who is a Nigerian legend. There is a very complicated man. 

Quest Love - Fela has to be the epicenter. 

Jad Abumrad - And Questlove, one of the great musical minds of our time. 

Quest Love - I mean, Fela is the one figure whose story resonates with modern American hip-hop culture. 

Jay Z - The passion, the pain,

Jad – Jay Z –

Jay Z -The strength, the need to get that message out there. 

Jad Abumrad [00:02:24] Beyonce. Famously quoted Fela on one of her albums. 

Flea - Look, it's like, listen to it. 

Jad Abumrad - Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. 

Flea – It’s the hardest shit you've ever heard in your life. 

Paul McCartney - He invited me out to the African Shrine, which was his club, just outside Lagos. 

Jad - Then there is Paul McCartney's Sir Paul, The Beatle, Tells the story of seeing Fela play. 

Paul McCartney - And it was very intense, but when this music broke, I ended up just weeping. It was one of the most amazing musical moments of my life. 

Burner Boy - Okay, so this is Fela Kui, Fela Anikulapo Kuti.. 

Jad Abumrad - And then there's Burner Boy, the first African musician to sell out a U.S. Stadium. In a video, he shows off a tattoo of Fela's face on his left forearm and also a Fela necklace around his neck. 

Burner Boy - He's like my hero, he's like the best musician I ever knew. 

Jad - Just to pile on, Brian Eno, legendary record producer. 

Brian Eno - When I heard Fela, he absolutely blew my mind. I thought, this is really the future of music.

Jad - David Byrne. 

David Byrne - This is not just feel-good music. There's something about this. They're doing stuff I'd never heard before. And I thought oh, this really liberating. 

Jad Abumrad - Even President Obama had some thoughts. 

President Obama - Music like Fela’s is able to not just get folks moving, get them on their feet, but it also makes them feel alive. Our very best art and our very best music stirs the soul. 

Jad Abumrad - So how, how is he doing that exactly? To create that reaction in all those people. Unfortunately, we can't talk to him because he died in 1997 and he didn't leave a lot of tape behind. But for the last three years, we've been talking to the people who knew him. 

Speaker 12 - Either in old school style or in a new school style. 

Jad Abumrad - Who fought with him, sang with him took blows with him and tried to change the world with him. The story they tell, I hope you'll agree has everything to do with this moment as we're all searching for, what do we do now?

That’s the opening to “Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.” 

Back in February, Lesedi Mogoathle (meh-hotlay) and the crew at Radio Workshop held an online chat with FayFay and Jad about how they reported and produced the story. About 80 people joined the conversation. 

Lesedi described Fela as complex and larger than life.  He created afrobeat music. He married 27 women. He was nicknamed “The Black President” because of his vocal, anti-colonial politics and opposition to the military-led government in Nigeria.  He was harassed by the government – arrested dozens of times. All of which is covered in the series. But Lesedi says that is only one small part of the story. 

Lesedi -  Things really slow down as you listen, like the stories really pull you in into the everyday moments that make Fela who he is and the many people around him who love him or hate him. You're like transported in this like very visceral way into the streets of Lagos and you understand the music and you understand how the music is a weapon. 

Lesedi’s conversation with FayFay and Jad is the first time the two of them have been interviewed together. I’m including most of their chat here since they talk about a lot a things I think Sound School listeners will be interested in. 

I especially like Jad’s description of how they structured the series as a stream with eddies that pull the listener aside and push them back in. It’s a unsual way to think about story structure.

And, later in the conversation, I very much appreciate hearing how FayFay wore several hats: translator, fixer, and maybe most importantly, culture broker between Jad, who’s from the States, and the people they interviewed. She has fascinating insight. 

But, enough of me describing the conversation. Let’s listen. 

Here's Lesedi and her first question. 

Lesedi Mogoathle -  I'd love to hear how you met. Maybe FayFay you can start. 

FayFay Odudu - Uh, I mean, he sent me an email begging me to work with him. We can start there. (laughs) Um, yeah, I did get an email and, you know, uh, he was then asking me to do some tape syncs around Lagos, um, I didn't really have the full context, but then when we got on a call, um. He gave me an idea of what the podcast was going to be. And I'm like, you had me a Fela. I don't know what you're talking about, but yeah, that's that's what I remember, but Jad, how did you find me though? 

Jad Abumrad - No, it's I mean, it was the road to make this podcast was pretty long and. There was about, you know, it was a three-year process. And the first year and a half, I'd say, it was a lot of research and we didn't really know where it was gonna go. We didn't have a home for it for a long time. And so in that early period, when it was really just an idea, the very first thing we did… we asked around, we're like, who's good in Lagos?... FayFay’s name came up immediately and we just met over Zoom and then we just started, you know, FayFay, was like tracking down people for us, she was giving us intel on who would be cool to talk to, and we existed in that kind of state, really scrambling around for maybe a year…

And then when the project finally got funded then the team expanded a bit. But, and then we actually got to meet her, we had to travel to Lagos and like hang out and become... I would say we're good friends at this point, but I don't know how you would characterize it, FayFay.

FayFay – Totally  

Jad - But, yeah, it was a long meander, you know? I mean, every project I work on, and it's, there's a period at the beginning where you don't what you're doing, nobody seems to want it, but then you just kind of can't let it go for some reason. And so FayFay rode with us through that early period. 

Lesedi Mogoathle - Mm, incredible, incredible. I know you guys talk, well, you've talked a lot. I'm sure you've asked each other a lot of questions. Fay, I'm curious, do you have any questions for Jad? Starting this conversation, is there anything you haven't asked Jad that you can ask now?

FayFay Odudu - Okay, I think I never really asked you why you decided to make this project? And like maybe when did it become apparent to you as well that, you now, it was going to be something? 

Jad Abumrad - Mm-hmm. You know, I think my answer now, in retrospect, would be different than maybe at the very beginning of the process. I don't know that I could have answered at the beginning of process why we were doing this. Now the answer I'll give you, if I look back and I think, why did we spend three years doing this? The answer actually extends previous to this project. You know the Dolly Parton series that I did. Which in many ways I think Fela:, Fear No Man, is a sequel to, in a way. 

But I have been looking for stories, I've been drawn to stories for a long, long time where you that are about musicians whose music is bigger than music in a way. Musicians who make you believe again in the power of music to do something, to move the spirit, to move society. 

These days we live in a world where we have access to every single song ever made and therefore all music is meaningless. And so we can think of music as simply a commodity that we use to soundtrack our lives and that we don't actually listen to. It sort of subconsciously is there…

I feel like I have been needing to hear stories and to find stories where the music is something closer to what it was when people first started making music, which is that it's sacred. It's like this divine thing, you know? 

Bach made music to express God. And I say that as an atheist, like I don't have that religion in my life, but I have that need for music to be something more than what it is. 

And so when I discovered these musicians, first, you know, I'm thinking 20 years ago, I did a full thing on Wagner and then Dolly, and then most recently, Fela. It's like, these are people where music was not casual, right?… And so I think that's what was so sticky to me about Fela as a subject. 

And when did we know we had something? Not for a long time, FayFay. Honestly, it's like longer than most projects. For me, I think the moment I felt like I found the center of this Actually happened in London when we interviewed Dele Shosimi, one of Fela's rhythm pianists… he described basically suffering the worst trauma I can imagine a human could suffer, right? Seeing his father killed in front of him and how the recurring rhythms of Fela's music would heal him, like on a nightly basis. Like that music would allow him to step out of the horror. 

And I remember him telling that story and he's crying and we were all crying in the room as he's telling us that story. And I remembered like walking up and like, that's it. Like that's the reason we're doing this, is that music can have that effect…
Lesedi Mogoathle -. Yeah, that Dele scene is like, yeah, it's hard hitting, because it starts the series. And I mean, like, it is beautiful to hear you talk about all of you crying and the feeling, like we feel it when we listen to it. And it's so electric. And we go through that whole journey with Dele, the emotions, you know. And then of how he brings the music to life. It's just like, whoa. I wanna listen to the rest of this… 

And you know you were talking about how you knew what you were doing or what the series would be. I'm curious if that was the same moment that landed you on the question that you asked at the beginning of the series, Jad, the question about art that you asked at the very beginning.. in a world that's on fire, what do we do with art? Like, what can music do? Can it actually change things? When did you find that question for the series? 

Jad Abumrad - I mean, it's the kind of, that's, you know, FayFay will remember that, like, that episode was not the first episode for a long time, it was certainly in the middle. So we had the question in an abstract way early, right? That is one of the central parts of Fela Kuti’s mythology, is that he created a form of Afrobeat that was as much a political movement as it was a genre of music. 

So we kind of knew that. But that's kind of, that's an abstraction, you know, to be like, music is the weapon. You're like, what? How does music, how does that work? Dele was the moment where it felt like, “Ih, oh. Okay. Got it.” Like if, if music can do that to one person. And if you imagine a million people having that experience, that's a movement, you know, that's a world-changing event. That was the moment I could go from the abstraction all the way down into the one person's experience. 

So it was knowing it in a different level, right? Very often that's how it is, like you have this idea and you're like, I want to make it real, I wanna feel it, I know it's true, but I don't feel it. And that was the moment I felt it. 

Lesedi Mogoathle - So what we wanna do is play some tape. We got Jad and FayFay to select some clips and yeah, we'll talk about them. Please feel free to ask questions after each clip. And yeah. Let's get into it. I mean, The first one we're gonna play is from Jad. Jad, you selected something from episode three and it's about The Shrine. The Shrine is Fela's club in Lagos where people go and see him and the entourage perform. And for many people, it's this place where it finally lands what the power of Fela is… And I think that's what we're gonna play now. 

Clip from Episode - Speaker - My experience of being in the shrine was like, like the music was like inside of me, it was all around, it was just like, you know, being hypnotized. Like you're all inside the music. 

Speaker - A kind of hypnotic dancing. 

Speaker  - Reacts to music, dancing, listening 

Speaker - I remember being lost in music. All the people are smoking around me and we are in a mist. So you're in a different world. 

Music - One day, one day we'll be one day Just like it's nearly morning for the woman One day we will be one daaaaaay 

Speaker -  this idea of a spiral, and a circle, it's another way to deal with time. 

Speaker - I would describe it as a swell. …And when you have a sad drill, it starts off as this little thing that builds up and it builds up. The more you allow it to circulate, it just starts to get bigger, get bigger. Get bigger. Get bigger. 

Speaker -  Circle. Get bigger…. 

Speaker – Fela starts his music to enchant this repetitive pattern the power of the musical ostinato is part of that enchanting strategy. You've been captured 

Music 

Speaker - I thought this is really an amazing new form of music. It was almost like a field of sound that sits there for a long time and you explore it. You kind of enter it and live in it. This is a place. This isn't a song. 

Speaker - And meanwhile, the rhythm section's keeping going. Going, going, going. 

Music – 

Speaker - This is a place and when you start listening to it you are entering into that place. 

Speaker - Like the music was like inside of me was all around it's just like you know being hypnotized  (fades out) 

Lesedi Mogoathle -  Hmm, amazing. It's like a trip. So much going on there. The voices are part of the rhythm section. It's adding to the beats like this whole psychedelic audio experience. Jad, I'm curious to hear why you selected that clip. 

Jad Abumrad - Um Yeah, for a bunch of reasons. I mean, I just, I like, I just really like that clip. I mean, and also like, I mean we, we went to the shrine and we, we talked to a lot of people who'd gone to the shrine. And there's a thing that it felt really important if we're going to talk about it to describe an experience that had already happened rather than simply talking about it at a distance. And everybody kept talking about this thing that would happen to them when they're on the dance floor that they would fall into this trance. 

And then 15 minutes in, Fela would break the trance and then he would sing. And they would be in this moment where their minds are open and they hear his words and his words would move them into a kind of awareness and then action, right? I loved the idea that music could do that, could move you through all these phases. 

But just to simply describe that felt kind of inadequate. You had to actually give the listener the experience in order to talk about it. And so we worked really hard on that episode to try and make it a trip, to try to bring you into the experience that people were describing…

Lesedi Mogoathle - I'm curious if you had like a particular approach to get people to speak about music because there's so much feeling, you know, because music, you know, like art, it's like really easy to appreciate, but can be so hard to talk about. So what did you say to people to get them to bring the music to life in the interviews? 

Jad Abumrad - That part did not feel that hard, you know? … Asking questions like, “OK, take me into that moment. Don't tell it to me like it happened. Tell it to be as if it's unfolding. Go back into that version of yourself and look around. What do you see? What are you hearing? And just talk for 10 minutes.” So we'd ask those kinds of questions, and then they would just slip into it. 

Lesedi Mogoathle - There's a question here from Mariana, who wants to know more about the creative process? So maybe the nitty-gritty, like you said, Jad, you worked really hard to get it to sound right and to sound like a trip. I don't know if Mariana wants to hear the step by step, the blow by blow, but how can you bring us closer to that process? 

Jad Abumrad -  One of the, FayFay you’ll remember this, one of the first things we did, we were trying to map out the series and we drew a river, right? We were like, this series needs to feel like you're going down a river and each episode is an eddy in the stream. So you're like, the music is the river that's carrying you and then you get stuck in an eddy for a minute and that's one episode and then your back on and then another episode. And so that was our visual metaphor. 

And so in building this particular episode, could we make it so that the voices flow down the stream and each voice then gets stuck in an eddy and starts to loop? And so Dele, you can hear him saying, get bigger, bigger. And it's like he gets stuck on an eddy and then John Collins gets stuck in an eddy and everybody starts to spin. Because the physics of this larger world, that's what happens, right? The music is this all powerful force it then. Everyone gets stuck in the side of. 

So we just had that idea, and then it was just trial and error forever. And it was playing it for FayFay and Ruby, and being like, does it, they're giving you the thing? And they're like, not really. So then you go back and you do it again. 

And this particular episode worked for weeks on to try and like if at any point the dream gets broken, you've lost. Like it should feel like it's just a constantly spinning dream that's getting bigger and bigger and that was just like you pulling out every audio trick I could think of to, to reverbs upon reverbs and delays upon delays, anything to try and make that sort of world feel as big as it felt to these people when they were describing it to us. 

Lesedi Mogoathle - Cool, the circles, circles, circle, ha ha ha. Cool. I think we should move to the second clip. I was selected by Feifei. It's from episode four, “Vengeance of the Vagina Heads.” And I think, you know, this is when you all went to visit the Abiokuta Grammar School that was run by Fela's mum and her husband. And I thinking you were getting a tour of the school. FayFay, do you want to say anything about this clip before we get into it? 

FayFay Odudu - Yeah, sure. So I chose this clip because I know the entire series is about Fela, but… I also wanted people to be able to hear other aspects of the series that doesn't necessarily have to do with Fela himself and the things he did. And this episode was it for me. It's actually one of my favorite.

This particular clip gave me a sense of the kind of producer that you are, Jad. Like I didn't fully know what to think of or what to expect at the end of the day and like what your intention towards the story really was. But like this clip for me and just seeing you interact with the people in the school and the kids and all of that, just said, okay, this guy is really intentional about the kind of story that he wants to tell. And it started to paint a picture immediately for me, like where exactly in the story is this clip going to sit? Like I was so curious. And yeah, from that moment on, honestly, my perspective about the entire project changed. So I'll just let you guys listen. 

Clip - Jad Abumrad And everywhere we went, about 20 young people, ages 8 to 15, stared at us, very confused why we were there. 

Speaker - Hello. 

Jad - Can I talk to you for a minute? Do you know Fumalaya Ransomkuti? 

Speaker - Yes. 

Speaker 16 - What do you know about her? 

Speaker 17 -  She's a f***ing b***h. 

Speaker 16 - She's the first woman to drive a car. 

Speaker 17 - Thank you very much. 

Jad Abumrad - This is something you hear a lot, and in fact her car is on display at a museum in town. 

Speaker 16 - What did they teach you about her at the school? 

Speaker 17 - She's a teacher and a woman leader. 

Speaker 16 - She's a teacher and a woman leader. 

Speaker 17 - Sir, she was the first woman to stop the pain of attacks of women. 

Speaker 16 -  To stop the pain of tax of women. Boom. That's the story we're gonna tell on the radio. 

Speaker - Yes, I need them. 

Speaker -Okay, last question. Last question. Do you have an anthem for Abiyakut Grammar School? Yes! 

Speaker - Yeah! 

Speaker - Can you sing it for us? 

Speaker - Yes! Singing.  

Jad Abumrad - Okay, scene set done. (fades out) 

Lesedi Mogoathle - Lots of heart emojis, like really sweet. That sounds like a spontaneous sort of like recording moment where you're just like rolling and then boom you just decide to make something of that moment. FayFay, I don't know if you want to say anything else about it. 

FayFay Odudu - Yeah, so I think this clip, and not just from me, you can hear it in the kid's voice as well. Like it just brings out a lot of emotions and it also just throws you into that space where you start to imagine exactly what that looks like.

So I'm like, okay, so we're telling a story about a legend, now we're talking about his mother, now we are painting pictures and literally tugging at your emotions as well. Like this is layers and layers upon layers and like the kind of things we're recording, we're not just recording random things. Like there's some sort of, I actually asked Jad that why did you do that? Why did you record the kids singing? And I don't think he even knew exactly why he was doing it in that moment, but at the end of the day, just seeing how it's placed in the story and how I always go back to that moment. I don't know why. Anytime I think of the Fela podcast, first thing I think about is that moment. Just like, wow, I knew from then that it was going to be an amazing podcast.

Jad Abumrad - The scene around the recording was really complicated. And that's what I think about a lot. Like just getting to Lagos and then driving to Abiyakuto was such a journey, right? Like we had gone, so we'd come so far to get there. But then when we got there, because of the, like this clip for me speaks about the complications and the joys and also sometimes pitfalls of trying to report across cultures, in a way. 

Like I am clearly an outsider, right? I'm like a Lebanese-American. I am coming to a culture that is not mine and in a history that is not mine. And you have to go into those experiences with vulnerability and goodwill and good faith and with people around you, they could call out your blind spots, right? 

But sort of the unfortunate reporting situation that we were in at that point was we had three or four people with us that were security, right, and they had really big guns and it was like really uncomfortable, right. And so they were there and there were all of these kids who were just looking at us and I couldn't really interpret what their looks were saying. Because they were like, why are you here, right? It's a very legit question, fair question. And we couldn't somehow engage with them because there was just too much activity. Anywhere we went, we changed the air, and it was so frustrating. I just kind of wanted to like, at one point, Ruby snuck out with FayFay, and they went out to a party. And we got in trouble, which was so dumb. But there was a just like, we really wanted to be able to see and observe without changing the environment quite so much. 

And so at that point, I remember I looked at FayFay and I was like, fuck it, I'm going in. So I just pushed past these guys and I went and talked to the kids. And they were so happy that somebody broke the ice. 

And so I remember, that's what I think of. I was, like, oh, there was all of these barriers to us actually having that conversation. But we had come so far and we were like, you know what, I just need to know what these kids think, I need to hear from them. And that's, yeah, that's... FayFay, does that seem like a fair characterization of the situation? 

FayFay Odudu [00:44:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very fair. Very fair.  

Lesedi Mogoathle - I'm curious,  FayFay, you know, you seem to kind of play this role of, you, know, cultural translator or like the custodian, the guardian. Like, 

FayFay – Yeah. 

Lesedi - What was that like, like, to kind of make sure that Jad and the team who are not Nigerian, like he was just talking about, you know respecting, the process as an outsider, like what, what, what did you make sure or want to make sure that they got right? 

FayFay Odudu -  To be honest, I, I really wanted them to understand that there's a huge difference, like I know we already know there's a difference between cultures, but there is a huge difference between cultures and Nigerians do not take likely to misrepresenting stories and stuff like that or walking into their space and not, you know, um, would I say respecting them in a sense? And because I knew that these guys had good intentions and they wanted to like, you know, properly tell the story, I was just very mindful of whatever space they were in. You know, they had to understand that, okay, this are the rules here or this or that, and just kind of protecting them in a sense and protecting the culture as well. 

And you know I think there was one of the episodes where like we're talking to the queens and one of, I think was Lydie who was talking about being abused by Fela. And in Jad's mind, I knew he was thinking, you know, physical abuse. And I was like, no, no. No, that's not what that means. You know, we all speak English, but English means different things to all of us. So when she's saying abuse, she's talking about verbal insults, not physical abuse, so I had to make him understand that and other instances like that. 

And I also remember a crazy thing, separate from the podcast itself. I remember the day that I first met with Jad and the team and I walked in this apartment and there was like cash everywhere. And I understood this because yes, they had a lot to do and a lot of pay for and they didn't have Nigerian bank account so they had to move around with that much cash. But I'm a stranger, the driver is a stranger, the driver came with a random person as well guys this is not okay you know um 

But, I mean that aside to be honest, I think they made a very good choice to have somebody who um understands the culture to be like someone who bridges that gap for them and I think sometimes when people see me with them as well it kind of just releases the tension like okay these people aren't just here to come and pause (??) what does this Nigerian girl do with them let's talk to her you know and sometimes it helps to just explain to someone they're trying to interview that. “Okay. This is what we're trying to do. And these are kind of questions that we want to ask you, kind of. So yeah.” 

Jad Abumrad - Yeah, I mean, there was an interesting thing that would happen very often in interviews. Like the Queen's was an example where they would be talking to me, and then they would hit some moment where they couldn't quite express what they meant, and they would look at FayFay and speak to her. And so her presence was very important at every moment to getting, not just translating, but like truly understanding what people. trying to say to one another…

Like sometimes I would ask a thing, they wouldn't understand it and then FayFay would say the exact same thing, I swear in the exact same accent, but somehow they would understand it, you know? And it was like, it was just a, it was that, that happened constantly. And it was really, it was funny. And I felt like, wow, we really got lucky. 

And I feel like what's important about I don't know, FayFay, I'll say something, you tell me if you agree or not. We initially connected as audio producers, right? I feel like our foundation was as much about the culture of audio as it was the culture of Nigeria or the culture America, right. So I feel our foundation for our friendship was based on like, we're all just trying to make really good audio stories. And I feel that that was important. Like we weren't coming as representatives of our culture. We were coming as storytellers, and so we were in alignment in that way, arguably at a deeper level than culture in some way. You know, I don't know, I don't know if deeper is quite the right word, but that's sort of how I see it now. 

FayFay Odudu - That's absolutely spot on, to be honest. I think that was the main glue or connection between us, to be honest. 

Lesedi Mogoathle - Okay, we've got 15 minutes and so we have another clip that we can play or we can just take questions. 

FayFay Odudu -Oh, I want to hear your clip. What did you choose? 

Lesedi Mogoathle - Well, you want to give a clip? 

FayFay - Absolutely. 

Lesedi - Okay, I mean, the clip was actually selected by the Radio Workshop team. There was this sort of like general consensus that the writing on the podcast was so brilliant. You know, it's colorful, you know, you don't just see people and the place through the writing, you kind of feel them and experience all of the energy in those scenes through the writing. 

So the clip that was selected is from episode 12, and that's from the “Bloodline” episode, which covers the lives of some of Fela's children. And in it, we hear Yeni Kuti, Fela first child talking about what it was like to have Fela as a father. So yeah, that's the clip, let's play. 

Clip - Speaker 16 - This is before he became... 

Speaker 14 - Before he became famous people are kind of cool to everything. Yeah. By the time he became famous, you go to a place with him and he's mobbed, besieged, taken away. They've carried him and they've carried him out of your sight. You are looking. You can see your father, far away. You can't reach him. You can reach him. Used to be very, ah, man. Wow, this is surreal. 

Jad Abumrad - It's hard to describe the stillness around Yeni as she says that. When she gets quiet, everything around her gets quiet. As if her nerves run through the room, out into the courtyard, into the two other buildings of the compound. Even her dogs get still and then whimper when she's lost in a thought she doesn't want to be in. It felt to me, in that pause, that she was silently assessing conflicting memories. And figuring out which to weight heavier in the balance. 

Speaker - I don't know if as a child I resented it, I don't think so. I think. I would not have it any other way. 

FayFay Odudu - Beautiful. I'm glad I actually hear that. Yeah. How come? Why? That was so beautiful. Oh my God. I remember being, you know, right there in that living room. And I think in the moment I probably didn't understand what was going on, but I could feel the chemistry between her and her dogs. It was a real thing. 

Lesedi Mogoathle - Okay, so I'm looking at questions now. I'd love to take a question from the people here. Okay, what was the hardest part of producing this for both of you? 

Jad Abumrad - I mean, I'll give a short answer, then, FayFay, I'd be more interested to hear your answer. The hardest part was that Fela is he's like a myth at this point, right? He's like… this object of lore, you know? And you have to honor that, right. There's almost this like, this griot tradition of like, you carry that history and those stories with you in a way. At the same time we're journalists and reporters and you have acknowledge some of the uglier aspects of the story while at the same time doing that with the family. So it felt like sometimes juggling two separate jobs of like honoring the myth, but also honoring the truth. And sometimes they fought and finding an elegant, respectful balance sometimes was hard. 

FayFay Odudu - I would say it would be the amount of people that maybe I had to tell that you're not getting paid for this. Like, this is just an interview. You're not getting paid. Like, we can't pay you to do the interview. And that was quite a handful of people, to be honest. 

And maybe the other side would be that, I mean, a lot of people here know me as an audio producer. So I do a lot more audio work than story development part. But somehow Jad made a story developer out of me. And actually my biggest challenge, which was writing for podcasting became so, I would say so broken down all of a sudden, because writing was like my biggest, excuse me, biggest hurdle. I used to think I needed to be a writer to write for a podcast episode, but I realized through the way Jad works and his process that I can actually do this, you know? So I think the challenges were more personal than like, you know, for the project as well. 

Lesedi Mogoathle - Yeah, I am curious about your relationship with Fela now. You know, we spent, I guess, the eight hours, 36 minutes, listening to the series and like deeply immersed in Fela's life, but you had hundreds of hours. With Fela and the music, yeah, what's your relationship with him now? What did that deep immersion change in you or bring about in you? 

Jad Abumrad - Good question. You know, Fela is an interesting figure in that even at the end of this process, I don't know that I can tell you who he is. As weird as that sounds. I never felt like I really got in his head. 

But what I have a profound appreciation for is that he was a kind of energy source and he flowed through all of these people. It's almost like electricity is an energy. You can't really see it but then when it lights a light bulb, you see the illumination. I have such a profound awe and appreciation for the illumination he created in others, the way that he flowed through people. And now I feel like a part of that network in a way.

I think about courage…  I was listening to a report about the Epstein files, which is all anyone's talking about. And what you see in the Epstein files are all of these rich people who had an utter lack of courage. Whoever they were, they were kissing up to a man who was evil, right? 

It's interesting to juxtapose that against Fela, right? This was a man who get, who, who, whose house was burned down and his mother was thrown out of a window and ultimately died from those injuries. Like that's courage, right? So I think about him as a portrait of courage. And if I could live my life with just a thousandth of that courage, I think, so I take that with me. 

And I also think about just, you know, the question we started with, which is like, what is the point of music and art? And I think even as I know that there are limits to that, I still think he teaches us something about what music can do. 

FayFay Odudu - Oh, um, so before the project started, obviously I already knew Fela and his music and my perception of Fela was not very great. I just thought he was this guy who had a commune, had a lot of women, was fathering a lot a children and just like doing whatever he pleases. 

But with working on the project, you know, I just kind of, you know, see him a little differently now, especially when you speak of his courage, Jad, like, I would give anything today to find one musician who talks to the government the way Fela does. Ain't nobody doing that, you know?

So yeah, I see Fela as someone who was really courageous, all the rascality aside, to speak for what isn't working, speak about the government, stand up regardless of whatever was done to him. He was beaten how many times, arrested how many times, and he still went on. And I think that that's admirable, that regardless of anything, you stand up for what you believe. 

That’s FayFay Odudu along with Jad Abumrad pulling back the curtain on the making of “Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.” Lesedi Mogoathle of Radio Workshop was the host. I thank them all for letting me share this recording on Sound School. 

For the next little while, Radio Workshop is hosting online conversations like this one once a month with producers, reporters, engineers, and the like. I bet you’ll want to join in. Follow Radio Workshop on Instagram to learn about upcoming events. 

And while I’m talking about Radio Workshop, are you ready for this? They’re hosting the Resonate Podcast Festival in Cape Town, South Africa. There will still be a Resonate Festival in Virginia in October of 2026. But, in February of 2027, the party moves to South Africa. I know that’s pretty far away time-wise – and mileage-wise – but, if it’s of interest, start planning now peoples.  

(theme music)

I hope you still have your calendars out because there’s another audio event for you to attend. The Transom Festival. A celebration of 25 years of Transom.  Ira Glass, Al Letson, Erica Heilman, Jay Allison, Nichole Hill ….  I just saw that Nikki Silva of the Kitchen sisters is coming. All those folks and many others, will head to Woods Hole, Massachusetts on Cape Cod to sing happy birthday to  Transom. 

The Transom Festival is happening September 17th – 19th. Along with singing happy birthday, there will be listening sessions, masterclass workshops, performances, and hopefully a delicious swim in the ocean. September is the best. The water is still warm and the tourists are gone! Mostly. 
 
Keep an eye peeled on Transom dot org for ticket and lodging information. Of course, I’ll keep you updated, too.
 
Genevieve Sponsler, Jay Allison, and Jennifer Jerrett along with PRX and Transom make this podcast possible. 

I’m Rob Rosenthal. Thanks for listening. 

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