#311- When to Hold 'Em, When to Fold 'Em: The Art of Disengagement

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You're going to go over there and say,
hey, you put that,

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knife down
and he's going to turn and run to you.

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So now suddenly you went from, I'm getting
in my car with my wife from target,

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who has the baby to you have this maniac

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with crazy eyes
and a bloody butcher knife running at you.

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And you've never had training
for any of this.

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Hi there, and welcome to the Guns
Podcast, U.S., brought to you

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by guns magazine and sponsored
by our good friends at Ruger.

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I'm your host, Brent Wheat,

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and I'd like to thank you for joining us
for another episode

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of one of the world's
biggest audio and video shooting programs.

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Before we get started on another

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great topic, here's
a quick word from our sponsor, Ruger.

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Well, today

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our episode is going to kind of be
an advice column somewhat.

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It was proposed
by our unofficial official,

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unofficial guest host, Roy Huntington.

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And today we're going to talk about
when to hold them and when to fold them.

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But before we do that, hey, Roy,
how's it going?

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I, you know, I, I really don't know.

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I mean,
I haven't checked with my wife today

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to see how it's going,
you know, so we'll know more after that.

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But thanks for asking.

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That falls under the category of nuff
said.

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Okay. Let's move on.

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So anyway, now today
we're going to talk it.

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It was funny right before we hit record,
we were kind of just vamping

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and talking about it.

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And then suddenly the words
from the old Kenny Rogers song,

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you got to know when to hold them
and know when to fold them.

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And that lines up

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perfectly with our topic today,
we're going to talk about self-defense.

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And when you need to get involved

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and when you need to run
like a scared little bunny.

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And this is a topic
we've talked about many times.

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But we've never I don't think
actually devoted a, a episode to it.

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So we're going to give you some thoughts.

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Of course, I got to do the disclaimer.
We are not lawyers.

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We didn't play one on TV and we've not
stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently.

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So this is for entertainment
purposes only.

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But at least we're going to give you,
some ideas of what is it, Roy?

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Probably about 60 some years
or 70 years of total law enforcement

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experience combined at big
and small agencies across the country.

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A gazillion years, years.

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It it feels like that.

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I will say, totally off topic.

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We have the, monthly old fart retiree,

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luncheon and BBS festival,
and we just had it yesterday.

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And it's funny, we tend to tell
the same stories over and over.

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Remember that time that we did this?

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But, yeah, we've
we've we've been there and done it

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and survived it and, worn out
a couple of t shirts in the process.

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So we're going to talk about this topic
because don't you agree?

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This is one of those things
that, folks who have not had, say

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legal training or professional,

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even firearms instruction,
they're always saying, you know, I,

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I've heard you can do this or I should,
should I do this or, you know,

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it's one of those things

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that people ask us a lot.

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You know, let's start at the beginning.

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I mean, I used to

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I was in our public affairs unit for a
little while, and part of the glorious

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duties of that was to attend neighborhood
watch meetings.

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Right?

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And invariably, every single time

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someone would put their hand up
and I would say yes.

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And then they would say,
is it true that if you shoot

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a burglar on your front porch,
you should drag his body inside?

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Oh, oh oh, no, no.

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And then that
put your fingers in your ears.

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And I didn't hear that. No,
I didn't hear that.

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You never know.

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But surely you heard that from.
No, I'm saying that's what.

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Yeah, that's always my answer
because I got the same thing.

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It's like,
oh la la la la I can't hear, you know.

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So which then leads into the
it doesn't matter where you shoot him

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or how you kill him,
as long as you were in fear for your life.

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Yeah.

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And I, you know, so you would say
if you were in fear for your life

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and he was standing on the front porch,
then, then.

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Okay.

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You know, but you don't move his body
because that means all the lights and

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sirens go up in the air.

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But yeah, but yeah,
I think too many people, the average

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Sam and Suzy Homemaker, gee,
I think I should get a gun for protection.

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That's fine. Right.

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And then that's where it stops.

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They get a gun,
but they don't ever really learn.

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What are the rules? When can you act?

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When can you not act?

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And more importantly,
which is I think what

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we're going to talk about today
is when should you act.

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Yeah.

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And when is it best,
as you say, to follow them.

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Yeah. Know.

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And you know, this is
this is a very relevant topic

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because I'm going to talk about current
events, a national news story

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that literally happened about 5 or 6 miles
from here, and just a less than a mile

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from where my kids live, my son
and daughter in law and a granddaughter.

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And I'm sure you've

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probably seen it
where a homeowner shot through a door

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and killed a lady who they were cleaning
crew, and they'd gone to the wrong house.

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And so he ended up being charged with,
I believe it was voluntary manslaughter,

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which, you know, talking to my friends
in law enforcement,

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we feel like
that was an appropriate charge.

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But it's made national news
for a variety of reasons. But,

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I'm going to offer my opinion
that there's some things

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missing in his thought process
when it comes to firing a gun.

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First of all, firing
through a locked door.

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That that's problematic right there.

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So that's the kind of stuff
we're going to talk about a little bit of,

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because really, you know, what starts
the whole sequence of a deadly force

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engagement is you deciding, I need to pull
a gun, and I need to go to work here.

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So that's really what we're going to hone
in, because as we've talked about

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many, many times, and I jokingly called
the scared bunny defense,

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there's a time to just turn tail and run.

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And, I know Roy, we've talked about it.

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It's hard for us because all those years
we weren't allowed to run.

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We had to go toward the problem, toward
the gun fire, toward the guy with the gun.

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And, it's hard
once you retire to realize that.

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Yeah, if I have to defend somebody's life,
I will.

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But otherwise, my really my highest duty
is to get me and my loved ones

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and my friends out of harm's way,
and then I'll do what I can do. So,

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I mean,

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your thoughts on that in, in terms of,

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running toward the gunfire instead of,

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running away and shirking your duty?

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Well, you know, I think there really are
people who are warriors.

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There really are people
who have the experience, you know?

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I mean, you get some multiple tours,
combat vet,

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you know, who's got extensive training
and is well armed and practices a lot.

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And now if he's out with his family
and he sees someone getting attacked,

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well, at that point, then you know,
he needs to make that decision.

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If he can, if he can go, go

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hide behind the car, right to his family.

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And if he thinks that he has the ability
and that it makes sense

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for him to engage us
and save this stranger's life.

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Right.

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Then that's a decision he has to make.

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Yeah.

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I mean,
and I know a lot of people will say, well,

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you know, then that's not manly
if you don't automatically do it.

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But I've been in situations
is you weigh the odds, you know,

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I mean, if I was in a bank line
and I had my five shot jframe in my pocket

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and four guys came in armed with AK 47
to hold the bank up,

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I would smile and do anything
they told me to do.

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You know, be a good witness.

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I would be the world's best witness,
you know, now, if the gun came out

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and he was going to shoot somebody.

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Like I knew that for sure.

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You still have a decision to make.

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In other words, could you win this fight?

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Right.

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Maybe if I had a high capacity
nine and I was in a position in the bank

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and I could call upon my old,
you know, IPsec and ID training

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and go blink, blink, blink blink
blink and shoot all for real fast.

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I don't know, that's a decision
you'd have to make there. But

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I think for people to

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just assume, oh, well, if I see something,
I'm going to get involved.

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Yeah,
that is really not always a good idea.

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As I had somebody tell me one time
and he did just that,

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then he got sued by the bad guy
who didn't die.

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He got sued by the victim
who was wounded in the altercation.

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He got sued
by the store that he was inside

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when he pulled his gun
and started this fight basically.

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Right.

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And so to what end I mean

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these were all strangers, you know,

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and I know that's mercenary,
but I think it's okay to be mercenary.

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Yeah, well, and I think you raised that.

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Good point.

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Okay,
first of all, we're thinking about this.

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You know, we've talked about that
the whole preplan.

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When I walk into a convenience store.

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Well, certainly when I walk into the bank
like I did yesterday, I'm looking around.

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I'm being where I'm thinking, okay,
if if the guy suddenly

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burst out the front door with a shotgun,
what am I going to do?

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I'm I'm going to go this way, that way,
that way, or am I going to try to engage?

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And then, you know,
you get beyond that decision.

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Like you said, there's four guys with AK
and you got your five shot jframe.

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Well,
if they're getting ready to shoot somebody

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and they're all standing there
and you know,

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three of the four
have got their back to you.

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That's one thing.

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It's a whole different deal.

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If they're you know,

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if they've used good tactics and they're
spread out and you're going to lose that.

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So you might get one bad guy,
but you're going to die.

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And that might exacerbate what's going on
to the point that there's been, you know,

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countless examples of where when victims
did fight back and effectively it

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it angered the bad guys
and they ended up hurting everybody.

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So that's the thing.

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There's no hard and fast rule and is like,
we like we always like to say

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carrying
a gun is a thinking person's occupation.

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And like you said, where I think
you hit on another good point that we hear

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a lot is a gun is not a magic, talisman

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or to use a big word or a magic thing.

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And, going back to this gentleman
that, that allegedly killed the,

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the cleaning lady,
he said in the media in numerous places.

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So I'm comfortable saying this.

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He had bought this gun years ago
and hadn't fired it ever.

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So, you know that that puts another layer

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of like you said, Roy,
you're an IPsec competitor.

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Yeah, I know you're shooting skills.

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You know, you're shooting skills.

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That's a different equation

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than a guy that says, well,
I've never really even fired this gun.

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Do I want to get involved in this?

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You know,

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maybe this isn't going to go so well
for me and everybody else around there.

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So lots to unpack on
on that whole decision making process.

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And a lot of it goes back to yourself
and what you know

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you can do versus
what you think you can do.

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I want to address the fact
that I don't want people in comments

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to say, well, you're
telling us it's not good to fight back.

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And no. No. We never said that.

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We said, you need to have the wherewithal
and the common sense and the ability

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and the equipment and the environment
to be able to fight back effectively.

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Now, yes, there are dead end times,
you know, you're

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you're getting in your car
with your family and you're attacked

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by some thug and he pulls a knife out.

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You know, you don't have time
to be making any of those decisions.

231
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:19,800
You know?

232
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,840
I mean, you you have to fight back there.

233
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:22,880
You've been forced.

234
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,960
Your hand has been forced.

235
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,880
And there might be times
where that occurs.

236
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,360
I know there was that mall shooting
a few years ago, and a young fellow

237
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,440
took on that guy with a rifle,

238
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,040
and it was like, almost like a 40
or 50 yard shot inside of the mall.

239
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,200
But, you know, that was a situation

240
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,120
where he had a position
of cover and concealment.

241
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,120
He felt that he had the ability to do it.

242
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,360
He weighed the consequences
of not of this fellow continuing.

243
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,200
And I think he made a good decision,
you know, obviously came out, you know.

244
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,440
Well, but if you reverse that role
and it's that guy that, hey,

245
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:00,560
I've got my small frame

246
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:03,960
revolver that I've only shot one time
when I bought it six years ago.

247
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,440
And am I going to take a shot at 50 yards,
you know.

248
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:08,040
No, I'm.

249
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,240
People do. Right.

250
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,240
Yeah,
but I mean, that's just plain ridiculous.

251
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,280
I think if you listen Darrell Bock,
he said something one time

252
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,000
and it really
it really struck a chord with me and that,

253
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,000
he of course, is, is well known for his,

254
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,080
small revolver and combat
revolver experience and training.

255
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,960
And he said he said a jframe

256
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,440
is something that you push into somebody
and pull the trigger

257
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,760
and and it it's
he it really struck a chord

258
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,760
because it's like,
yeah, jframe is not really something

259
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,560
you want to engage
somebody at 20 yards with.

260
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:47,400
I mean, unless you're backed
into a corner, you have no other choice.

261
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,520
Yeah, but but a jframe that's in
your pocket

262
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,760
is to get the guy off of you.

263
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:54,520
Right?

264
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,120
So you stick it in his belly
and pull the trigger,

265
00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,920
or you stick it down his mouth
and pull the trigger.

266
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,320
Right.
And then you run like a son of a bitch.

267
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,240
So that's almost should be the baseline
that I think

268
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,240
people should do,
especially if you're just the regular Joe.

269
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:11,880
You know, you've got a gun or two.

270
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,680
You maybe you've gone over the range
a few times.

271
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:17,760
You went and took the trouble
of having your one day of training

272
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,000
for concealed carry,

273
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,280
which, by the way, ladies and gentlemen,
isn't training at all.

274
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,480
Okay, not at all.

275
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:25,400
I mean, it shows you how

276
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,800
maybe not to shoot yourself in the foot
in the safety of a square range.

277
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,960
But there there are so many more things
you need to learn about tactics.

278
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,160
And, you know, and as Brent said,
the situational awareness,

279
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,920
you know,
you should. You should always be,

280
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:42,600
aware.

281
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,520
Jeff Cooper, coined a series of colors
for awareness.

282
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:53,560
So there's white, yellow, red and black,
I think, so if you're in.

283
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,280
Orange is in there two. Origins in there.
Yeah, yeah.

284
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,680
Oh that's right. Yeah. That's right.

285
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,960
So, if you're white,
that means you're completely oblivious

286
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,520
to what's going on around you.

287
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,840
You might as well just be asleep.

288
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,840
But there are most people.

289
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,000
That's how they go through their day. Yep.

290
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,880
You know, if they're in target,
they're in white, you know.

291
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:16,760
And I was looking for.

292
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,040
Oh, here it is. And this this.

293
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,520
And I'm for those listening
I'm holding up my cell phone.

294
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,840
It's it is stunning to me.

295
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,600
The people and they tend to be younger,
but I see old people doing this too.

296
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,000
They get so engaged in that thing.

297
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,720
Walking, going in the bank, shopping.

298
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,640
Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't do that.

299
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,800
It's hard for me to understand, but I

300
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,880
it is amazing to see people.

301
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,520
People have been hit by cars,
you know, walked into robberies

302
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,960
because they're busy
looking at cat videos on TikTok.

303
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,600
Well, you see, this makes no sense.

304
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:55,800
You're saying you know, walk

305
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,640
into Starbucks with their phone down here
and they never once looked up, you know.

306
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,520
Yeah. So there's conditioned white.

307
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,240
And then I believe there's condition
yellow.

308
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,720
And what condition yellow is and you can
be in condition yellow all the time.

309
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,440
And that just means you're aware
of what's going on around you.

310
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,240
It doesn't mean
that you're out of your swivel head

311
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,440
and you're constantly
searching everywhere,

312
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,880
but you're just aware,
you know, before you get out of your car

313
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,200
in a parking lot,
you look around to see who's out there.

314
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,000
Right after you get out of your car,
you lock your door.

315
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,880
Maybe you look around again, okay, I'm
going to walk to the store.

316
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,000
I look for traffic, you go in the store,
you look around, see what's going on.

317
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,440
Is there a crazy guy inside?

318
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,720
You know, are the employees tense?

319
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,160
Is something going on? It's easy.

320
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,000
You know, when you come home that night,
you're in condition yellow.

321
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,320
So before you go to bed,
you make sure the windows are locked.

322
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:42,840
You make sure the doors are locked.

323
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:43,880
Is the alarm on?

324
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,440
You know, or whatever it is. That's easy.
Easy, easy.

325
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,360
So now, if you're out there in your car
and you get out of your car,

326
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,240
you're in yellow and you see a strange guy
over there, where now you go to orange.

327
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,960
I believe that's when orange comes in.

328
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,960
Yeah, that is that
there's something of interest.

329
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,160
What's what's going on over there.

330
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:02,760
Right.

331
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,760
And so you have to decide
does it apply to me.

332
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,400
Does it affect me.

333
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,800
Is it anything I should be thinking
about having to take action on?

334
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,320
You know, I don't know.

335
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,000
But at some point,
if that orange thread pulls

336
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,920
a big butcher
knife out, well, now you go to red.

337
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,000
Yeah, because red means
you are identified a threat, right.

338
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,680
And at this point you need to be doing

339
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,840
whatever it is you're doing,
including getting your car and leave.

340
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:30,080
Yeah.

341
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:30,960
Right. Yeah.

342
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,920
And then they they
I believe he had a condition.

343
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,360
Black and black
just meant that. Well, you were engaged.

344
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,720
Now, you know, shots are being fired
or the fight is on.

345
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:40,840
But I think

346
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,640
the two things that are most important
there is don't be in condition white.

347
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,400
Don't be that person.

348
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,200
You know, as you say,

349
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,200
with your head buried in your phone
as you're going about your day,

350
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,000
which is hopeless for us to even say that
because everyone's still going to do it.

351
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,160
Yeah. Yeah.

352
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,800
Yeah, but,
I mean, at least try for yellow sometimes.

353
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,200
I mean, practice a little bit. Yeah.

354
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,080
You know. Yeah. So.

355
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,640
Well, you know,
talking about that decision process and

356
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,200
I hope to remember to go back
to what you just talked about because,

357
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,720
I was going to use an example from when,
we just visited your house.

358
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,560
And, you know,
I went to the store and took our dogs.

359
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,920
And, I think that was kind of instructive
on maybe how to do things,

360
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,200
but I was also going to say a story
that I have told before.

361
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,480
So I won't, go too long with it.

362
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,480
But, myself and Kevin Michelle Koski from

363
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,480
USA were partners out at gunsight.

364
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:36,840
Two years ago.

365
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:42,120
We were in a team tactics, mini class,
and, we were one of the shoot houses.

366
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,400
And so we get set up wearing, same gear

367
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,400
and, we're in a quote unquote

368
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,160
hotel boarding house or whatever,
and there's a problem in the hallway.

369
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,960
So then the instructor goes, go.

370
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,600
So we hear all this commotion,
and the role players

371
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,600
are drunk buffoons, and,
you know, then they're angry.

372
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,320
So, you know, and guns,
you know, and all this.

373
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,640
So we set up, we're in position.

374
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:06,840
You know, Kevin's a great shot.

375
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,280
I believe current or former, law
enforcement officer.

376
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:12,400
Okay, so we're set.

377
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,000
We've got good cones of fire and stuff,
and the guys come in and bang, bang,

378
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:16,600
shoot them up.

379
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,400
And I think one of us got hit slightly,
and we we took

380
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,400
care of business
and killed the role players.

381
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,720
And so the, the instructor comes in
and goes, okay, you quitted yourself

382
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,480
honorably.

383
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,480
Did you think about
just barricading the door?

384
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,920
Well, well, no, no.

385
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:35,880
We're gunfighters.

386
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,280
We're gunfighters from hell.

387
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,720
Yeah, we want to invite them in.

388
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,720
But that really drove home
the point that, you know,

389
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,560
we were certainly ready
if they came in the room.

390
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,120
But why even allow them
to come in the room?

391
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:49,760
You know, don't don't engage.

392
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,560
Don't insert yourself into a
problem or invite a problem.

393
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:54,760
And I'm

394
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,440
sure you probably have, too, Roy,
but I've done that as a younger man

395
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,840
where I inserted myself
or took steps that I didn't need to,

396
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,840
and it was probably based on ego
more than anything else.

397
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,400
But that was really eye opening to me
that we had all the capabilities,

398
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,520
the training, the everything you need.

399
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:12,840
We're ready to go to a gunfight.

400
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,240
But as I believe Sun
Tzu said in the Art of War,

401
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,920
you know the best
battle is one that you don't fight.

402
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,880
So that really that one moment,
even though I've had a lot of experience,

403
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,440
that one moment really,
really got into my head about,

404
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,960
you know, all we had to do
was push a couch up against the door.

405
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,680
And, I mean, we're still ready to fight

406
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,160
if they come in,
but they're in a really bad position,

407
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:38,280
and odds are they try that door,
they're going to move on down the hallway

408
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:39,720
and it's not my problem anymore.

409
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,720
So that was
that was pretty instructive to me.

410
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,720
I think that's the fallacy.

411
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,320
And of the effectiveness
of shoot houses personally.

412
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,000
Because when you go in,
I think it's different.

413
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,720
If before you go in
they say there is a threat in there,

414
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,520
who is going to try to kill you,
you need to get them first.

415
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,200
Okay?

416
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,120
I know what the rules are, right?

417
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:04,400
It's mano a mano here.

418
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:04,760
We go.

419
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,760
Yeah, but in the real world,
you don't know what the rules are.

420
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,240
Yeah.

421
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,880
And so, one time, million years ago,
I was at the Thunder Ranch shoot house.

422
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:15,680
And it was

423
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,000
really
a very pretty sophisticated for the time.

424
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,240
This is probably 25 years ago.

425
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,760
And we went in I.

426
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,520
It was Susie and I,
we were in a team tactics class.

427
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,400
And what's a better teammate
than your wife?

428
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,000
Because chances are pretty good. Sure.

429
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,600
Well, plus it helps for Susie
Knight and it's Susie.

430
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,040
Come on. Yeah I know yeah.

431
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,640
She's like having a dragon.

432
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,200
You know, next to you.

433
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,800
But I mean,
because she and I covered each other

434
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,000
in the real world,
in the street in San Diego.

435
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,760
I mean, we both pointed bad guys

436
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,240
or guns at the same bad guy before,
so this was pretty natural to us,

437
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,080
other than I had to constantly remember
to get out of her way

438
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,960
if there was a threat
because she would want a shooting, right?

439
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,400
So she would nudge me aside.

440
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,760
It's like,
it's like there would be the target.

441
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,080
And she pushed me aside and engage,
you know, and that's like, okay.

442
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:04,800
But yeah,
there was one where there was a guy,

443
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,480
who had barricaded himself in

444
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,600
a room
and that our job was to go get him right.

445
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,360
So we went up inside and I actually did
exactly what you just said

446
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,320
was I took a chair that was there,
and I put it against the doorknob.

447
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,720
And then I backed up.

448
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,960
And then I got on my pretend
radio and I said, you

449
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,120
know, unit 17
have the other responding officers,

450
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,440
secure the perimeter of the house
and call in the hostage negotiator.

451
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,760
And, of course, what?

452
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,960
They're standing there
staring at me. Right?

453
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,120
Yeah, yeah.

454
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,120
And I said, that's what I would do,

455
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,840
you know, and if I was just

456
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,640
some civilian,
I'm not going to go in there after him.

457
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:51,720
You know,

458
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,840
that's like, as a matter of fact,
I'm going to find the door out of here.

459
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:55,920
Yeah.

460
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:57,320
And I

461
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,360
will say one thing
that was very interesting on the police

462
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:03,760
department, we're trained you
you shoot until the threats down right.

463
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,640
Same shoot house.

464
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,560
I think I'm telling this story
to illustrate the importance

465
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,680
of training it as if you have training
versus if you don't have training.

466
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,520
So most people in this shoot house,
because I watched,

467
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,480
there was a target that was hung on a wall
and they had it arranged.

468
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,480
It was a very clever target system
that if you

469
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,640
if you hit the target in a,

470
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,680
a stopping zone, you know,
like high center chest or something,

471
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,360
it would bounce a magnet off
and the target would fall.

472
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,040
Right. So it's pretty clever. Right.

473
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,600
So there's two things going on.

474
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,280
You have to have the wherewithal
to hit the target correctly.

475
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,480
And then you have to have the wherewithal
to stop shooting.

476
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,640
If it falls because you now the target's
down.

477
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,720
Right. Yeah.

478
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,640
Well except for one thing, I had never
shot a target like this before.

479
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,560
So I had this

480
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,560
threat in front of me
holding a gun pointed at me.

481
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,200
And so I lit him up
with my browning high power, and.

482
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,440
But where? I made a mistake
was I shot him.

483
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,840
And as he was falling,
I continued to shoot him.

484
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,040
Of course,

485
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,640
you know, I was like, pa pa pa pa pa
pa pa pa all the way down to the ground.

486
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:14,960
Right?

487
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,720
So there were bullet holes in the wall,
bullet holes in the target

488
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,280
that weren't supposed to be there
and all that.

489
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:21,960
And I remember

490
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,760
Clint, it's it looked at me,

491
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,240
you know, and he went,

492
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,600
okay,

493
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,680
you know, it's like he understood, right?

494
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,200
Yeah. Yep.

495
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,360
But but I think yeah,
if you didn't experience him like that,

496
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:40,760
well then, you know, you wouldn't know
if you're in the field and you're some guy

497
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,520
and you shoot a bad guy and you're still
standing there, then you do that shooting.

498
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:45,360
Yeah.

499
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,280
But naw, I think people would go, well,
what do I do now? Yeah.

500
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,280
You know. Yeah, exactly.

501
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,800
Well,
you know, the follow up to that story from

502
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,920
gunsight is our next evolution was
we were in the cantina and we're

503
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,800
sitting there having our imaginary beers,
which that's a factor.

504
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,040
We're drinking and carrying,
you know, firearms.

505
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,200
So a guy comes in, he's robbing the place.

506
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,160
So we're sitting at the table back here,
up at the counter guy with a shotgun.

507
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,280
Right.

508
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,600
It was funny because the instructor said,
you guys got out of there so fast,

509
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,600
your beer
mugs were still suspended in midair

510
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,880
when you were out the door.

511
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,160
But what we did was
we got outside, positioned ourselves in,

512
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,400
you know, to a no.

513
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,640
What am I trying to say?

514
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,080
Not a circular firing squad.

515
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,160
We both had, clear shot at the door.

516
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,960
We were behind cover, and
when the guy came out, we challenged him.

517
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,160
He wanted to fight.

518
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,280
He lost that fight.

519
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,600
So we did both things there.

520
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,600
We disengage,

521
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,000
but we put ourselves in a spot where
we were far more tactically advantaged.

522
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,640
And then we chose to set the stage.

523
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,960
And it's that old military

524
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,200
maxim of you choose
where the fight happens, don't let them.

525
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,080
And kind of going back to your,
your bank scenario,

526
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,280
if if you know, again,
you're in a position

527
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,160
where you can get cover, concealment,
whatever it takes, that's one thing.

528
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,680
But if you're just reacting, it had better
be a such an extreme situation

529
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:11,680
where literally,

530
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,280
I've at least got to try to shoot
my way out of this or I'm going to die.

531
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,720
But in real life, those situations
are actually pretty few and far between.

532
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,960
Most of the time, people get involved
before they really have to,

533
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,440
so these are things
we want you to be thinking about

534
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,320
because as Roy said before,
you don't have time to suss this out

535
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:33,240
when suddenly it's like,

536
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,160
oh my, there's a gun,
because there is no more chilling feeling.

537
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,200
Even the guys that have kind of been
there done that then, oh, he's got a gun.

538
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,440
Crap. You know, there's no thinking.

539
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,240
I think this is

540
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,800
pivots on one important thing,
which is if you carry a gun

541
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,040
for personal defense,
you have to leave your ego at home.

542
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,560
Yeah. Period.

543
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,640
And so just because somebody disses you,

544
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,280
just because something happens
and you think, well, if I don't intervene,

545
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,880
then people are going to think
that I'm a fraidy cat or,

546
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,920
you know, a knows
all of that does not apply.

547
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,800
Yeah. It's really important.

548
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,800
And I think there's two categories here
though, and we've touched on it.

549
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,880
There's the seasoned

550
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,040
trained combat or field police vet,

551
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,640
you know, with carrying a real gun.

552
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,080
And he's got a lot of training
and his training is current.

553
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,320
Right.

554
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,720
So he or she may be better qualified
to intervene in a situation where,

555
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,000
you know, not just like, hey,
this could be a bank robbery, but like,

556
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,280
this person is attacking this other person
with a knife.

557
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,280
I have the ability to probably interfere
with this and stop it.

558
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,520
Yeah, right. Okay. That's good.

559
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,360
Now, though,
you know, you're Caspar Milquetoast

560
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,880
and you've got your wife,
and she's holding your baby,

561
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,200
and you just left target,
and you're walking to your car

562
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,840
and you see two, two transients
starting to get into a fight,

563
00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:04,920
and one of them picks up a baseball bat.

564
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,240
Well, you should get in your car

565
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,720
and call 911
and let them know what's going on.

566
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:12,720
Because why risk your family?

567
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,280
Why risk your life?

568
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,080
You don't have the training for it.

569
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,080
You probably don't have the gun for it.

570
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:21,000
Maybe. Right.

571
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,960
When was the last time you tried
engaging a target like this?

572
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,800
In a training scenario?

573
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,800
Maybe. Probably never. Right.

574
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,320
And so.

575
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,320
So you're going to go over there and say,
hey, you put that,

576
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,560
knife down
and he's going to turn and run to you.

577
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:38,840
Yeah, right.

578
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,000
Because they're nuts.
You never know. Yeah.

579
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,880
So now suddenly you went from, I'm getting
in my car with my wife from target,

580
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,920
who has the baby to you have this maniac

581
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,160
with crazy eyes
and a bloody butcher knife running at you.

582
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:51,760
Yeah.

583
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,280
And you've never had training
for any of this, right?

584
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:54,840
Yeah.

585
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,080
And, you know,
as they say, if you never train,

586
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,920
but if you're in a situation,
like a use of force situation,

587
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,560
you revert to training.

588
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,360
And if you've never trained,
then that means you revert to nothing.

589
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:08,720
Yeah.

590
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,280
And we've all seen that, so. Yep.

591
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,240
So remember
the one thing we're not saying.

592
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,480
Don't defend yourself.

593
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:15,760
Yeah.

594
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,160
You know, we're not saying if you
have the skill and you have the equipment

595
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,560
to intervene to save someone else's life,

596
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,120
then you should do it
if you want to, right?

597
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,320
Yeah, but but we're also saying
that you need to keep your wits about you

598
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,400
and look at the odds
and look at your training.

599
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,240
Be realistic
when you think about yourself.

600
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,240
If you're a keyboard commando,
that's a lot different

601
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,400
than actually having faced it.

602
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,280
So and I'm just going to make
I just thought of this and this happened.

603
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,040
Oh, I it was after I retired,
but I couldn't tell you.

604
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,160
It's been ten years ago myself

605
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,400
and another guy who, if I remember
correctly, was a police officer.

606
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,160
We were at a training school.

607
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,040
I can't even remember where it was,
but I remember this very vividly.

608
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,400
We were headed into like Walmart
to buy some stuff for the school,

609
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,280
and there was a guy and a gal arguing
in the handicapped space of all things.

610
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,760
But this guy, you know, you're
not supposed to judge a book by its cover.

611
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,960
But as a veteran police officer,
I judged him immediately.

612
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,000
This guy was a crap bird.

613
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,000
And, they were in a very heated argument
with wife, girlfriend,

614
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,120
whatever she was, or drug dealer,
I don't know, but it was obvious to us

615
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,120
that this was on the verge
of getting real physical.

616
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,240
Well, what we did was, you know,

617
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,200
option number
one could have been we'll run up there.

618
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,200
Oh, here's my badge
and you need to stop this.

619
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,480
And now I've inserted myself
into a problem that maybe I can't handle.

620
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,440
The option B that we took is
we did the same thing.

621
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,080
We both got behind a parked car
right across.

622
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,240
We watched.

623
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,640
And because other people were calling 911,

624
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,880
so we knew the
the police would be there instantly.

625
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,080
But we both said later we didn't even talk
about this, that we were posted out.

626
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,120
We were ready to go.

627
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,960
And if he started to hurt her
very badly, pulled out a gun, a knife,

628
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,320
a baseball bat and hit her

629
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,520
something like that
to where it was pretty obvious

630
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,640
she was going to,
or he was going to kill her.

631
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,040
We were going to shoot him.

632
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,720
But again, that was a decision

633
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,720
that we instinctively made,

634
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,960
based on the circumstances and didn't
even really have to talk about it.

635
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,960
We just got in a position.

636
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,600
If we have to shoot him, we will,
but we didn't have to.

637
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,400
And so we actually never got involved
until the police were there

638
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,600
and they had to fight him.

639
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,600
But they took care of that real quick
but got him in cuffs and all that.

640
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,000
So we walked over and identified.

641
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,240
Yeah, we saw and he, you know,

642
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,600
he open handed, slapped her and, you know,
she was being a pill too.

643
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,280
But, and I don't know what ended up
happening other than he left in cuffs.

644
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,560
But that was a situation
where I think we did the right thing,

645
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,640
that we were ready to defend this woman
if she was going to be killed.

646
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,840
But it didn't ever get to that point,
and we didn't insert ourselves

647
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,560
and make it worse to where, you know,
if we'd walked up,

648
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,120
this guy was angry enough,
he probably would have come at us.

649
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,160
And at that point,
we're going to have to shoot him.

650
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,360
And, I've got no problem with that,
but I'd rather not shoot him

651
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:07,200
for all those reasons.

652
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,240
You talked about, Roy, that it get
it ain't like TV.

653
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,960
It gets pretty ugly afterwards.

654
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,920
And, you know, I've we've got friends
and I was just talking to one this week

655
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,120
that is still dealing with the aftermath
of his shooting 20 years later. So.

656
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,360
Well and you I think the, the core thing

657
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,360
to learn from
that situation is you both had training.

658
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,280
You know,
and the average person walking flat footed

659
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,240
into Walmart
that day doesn't have the training.

660
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,640
And they so they,
they react rather than act.

661
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:39,240
Yeah.

662
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,760
You know, some years ago here
we, you know,

663
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,360
we live on some property and our,
our driveway is a third of a mile long.

664
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,320
And our neighbor at the top of the hill
called me one one day

665
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,680
and, said, hey, Roy,
there's an accident out front

666
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,640
and some guy is screaming
at the girl who's still in the car.

667
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,440
And I said, well, okay.

668
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,320
I said, hey,
can you tell me what's injured?

669
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,520
She said, no, I can't tell.

670
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,520
I said, hang up, down 911,
make sure the cops are coming.

671
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,640
And now at that point, because, okay,

672
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,640
there was an accident,
there may be somebody injured.

673
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,680
This we've got a guy who might
or might not be out of control screaming

674
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,920
at a girlfriend. Right.

675
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,160
Suzy and. I are here.

676
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,840
We're armed. We have training.

677
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:25,560
I think it was

678
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,160
safe for us to at least go up
and kind of see what was going on, right?

679
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,800
Which is actually what we did.
We got in the easy go.

680
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,560
We drove up there, we stopped about,
probably 10 or 12 yards from him.

681
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,840
And I got out.

682
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,120
Their car was stopped out on the roadway.

683
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,560
I had my hand on my gun
that was in my pocket.

684
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:49,200
Susie stayed at the easy go
with a really big gun that he didn't see.

685
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,080
Yeah.

686
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,040
And, and so what I did was.

687
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,680
And this is what you need to listen to was
I didn't say, hey, stop.

688
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,320
Police were right.

689
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,320
I said, hey, is everybody okay?

690
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:02,920
Is the girl all right?

691
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,400
The cops in the ambulance
are coming right now.

692
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,080
They should be here in a second.

693
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,840
I just want to make sure everybody's okay.

694
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,400
Are you okay, sir?

695
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:16,160
Do you see right now they're a little
distracted in there, you know?

696
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,440
And sure enough, he calmed down.

697
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,320
He like, he went, oh, yeah, that bitch.

698
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,080
You know, she just go in this crash.

699
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,880
Yeah. I said, is she injured?

700
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:24,680
You know?

701
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,680
No, I don't think so. Ma'am. Are you okay?

702
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,640
You know.

703
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,520
And then so we distracted him and then,
you know, within a minute or two,

704
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,560
the cop showed up and I just said,
yeah, okay, that's what we saw.

705
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,960
You know, if you need us. We lived there.

706
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,520
But I did have to laugh, though,
because as I turned around

707
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,400
and walked back to the easy go,
I saw that Susie had a bead on this guy.

708
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:48,800
Oh, yeah.

709
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,640
You know that if he had done anything
silly,

710
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,640
it would have been his last act on earth.

711
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:55,760
You know, I.

712
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,320
Just got to say, you can talk to me,
or you can talk to her, or you can.

713
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,200
Talk to her.

714
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,640
Yeah, it was really funny.

715
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,800
And when I went back, she said, damn.

716
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,040
Oh, yeah.

717
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,040
But again, yeah, it's a funny story, but

718
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,040
I think that's the important things
like to that's back to that situation.

719
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,120
You got a couple bums
fighting or something.

720
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,880
Maybe all you need to do from over here.
It just go.

721
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,760
Hey, the cops are coming. Yeah, right.

722
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,760
I mean, 99% of the time, everything stops.

723
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,600
You know. Yeah.

724
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:30,640
You know, it's just like.

725
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,600
And half the time one of the guys or both

726
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,920
are going to run away
because they got warrants.

727
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,680
They know they may never know.

728
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,160
Yeah, but even if it's if it's a husband
or wife thing and they just slap her

729
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,280
or something, say, you know, hey, man,
the cops are coming.

730
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:44,720
I just called them.

731
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:45,320
Yeah, right.

732
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,240
Oh, wait,
I think I hear the siren, right? Yeah.

733
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:50,400
I mean, you know, always cheat,
always win.

734
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,920
There's nothing wrong with that, you know?

735
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,040
But but yeah, don't go up there
and try to intervene and booger, you know.

736
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:56,720
Yeah.

737
00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:00,280
And and if he's actively stabbing her,
I'll tell you about a situation

738
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:01,520
that really gave me pause.

739
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,280
It happened in Indianapolis
at the convention center.

740
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,840
And I don't know the details.
I just read it in the paper.

741
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,560
But there was a

742
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,640
crazy guy, a homeless guy, crazy guy.

743
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,640
I don't have any problem saying that.

744
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,640
He was wandering the halls
of the convention center

745
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,840
and came up to another guy
and just choked him, literally to death.

746
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:22,600
And there were bystanders.

747
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,160
And my thought is,
now it's it's a gun free zone.

748
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,200
But I guarantee you,
I've carried a gun in there as a retired

749
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,880
Leo, my thought is, okay, first of all,
I'm not going to let him kill the guy.

750
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,520
But at what point do you decide

751
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,880
I need to shoot this guy
because he's killing him?

752
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,840
Or do you try to go hands on and find out
that it's more than you can handle?

753
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,360
Hands on?

754
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,440
I mean, I don't know the answers
to these questions,

755
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,360
but it was one of those moments
when I thought, okay,

756
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,200
suddenly I look and I, you know, 20 yards
down the corridor and this guy is just,

757
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,720
you know, and the victim's got his tongue
hanging out and his eyeballs protruding.

758
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:58,720
It's like, oh,
my Lord, he's really killing this guy.

759
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,720
I'm going to try and do something
because I think the victim's

760
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,720
in danger of death
or serious bodily injury.

761
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,520
But at what point do I have to take
my gun out and shoot this guy?

762
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,440
Because, you know what's going to happen?

763
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,440
This poor, sweet homeless guy
who's misunderstood

764
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,040
and was unarmed
was killed by this fascist cop.

765
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,440
I mean, I know that's
what's going to going to result,

766
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,880
and that's not going to stop me
from doing what I can to help the victim.

767
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,120
But I also want to do what I can
to make sure

768
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,080
I'm protected legally
and in the public eye and all that.

769
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,640
So, you know, again,
I don't know what the right answer is

770
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,880
other than I got to save
the victim because he died.

771
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,520
If I had been there with my gun,
I would have done something.

772
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,160
But it's an interesting,

773
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,000
internal discussion of at what point does

774
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,000
it become obvious
and how do I handle that?

775
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,400
You know, because again, it
as a retired police officer, the guy,

776
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,960
this poor guy, he's had mental issues,
and this cop just killed him.

777
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:57,480
It's like.

778
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:58,560
But he was killing a guy,

779
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,080
you know, that that won't really enter
into the discussion.

780
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,600
So anyway, that that still sticks with me
to this day of I can picture myself

781
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,200
because I've been there many, many times

782
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,200
and it's like, oh my, my lord, he's
choking this guy to death.

783
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,320
Well, that's unarmed.
That's what you know.

784
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,160
And that's okay.

785
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,440
If he was unarmed,
if he was still using deadly force.

786
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,720
Right, right.
Exactly that you have to be playing.

787
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,560
What if so you you saw that situation
you played.

788
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:21,960
What if.

789
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:22,920
What would I do?

790
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,040
And you gave yourself,

791
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,640
you know, alternate ideas that way

792
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,720
when something happens,
you revert to your training.

793
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,880
Your training is if I see that happen, I'm
going to intervene.

794
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,200
And, you know, in a situation like that,

795
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,080
you know, you pick up a chair and bash
the guy in the head with it.

796
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,440
You know,
you don't always have to go to guns.

797
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,480
And that's the other thing is it's the
what is it?

798
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,520
If you only have a hammer
that everything looks like a nail.

799
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:46,440
Yeah, right.

800
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,360
So if you have a gun, you think, oh,
I have to shoot, you know.

801
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,200
Well, no, actually, like I said a minute
ago, distraction works very well too.

802
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:55,680
I mean, one of those bystanders

803
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,160
could have maybe gone up and said,
the cops are coming.

804
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:00,960
Yeah, they're here right now.

805
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,440
You know, I mean, you try if you know what
hit him in the head with a chair,

806
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,880
then you try something like that
or kick him.

807
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,120
Now people are they're afraid. It's like.

808
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,640
I mean, I don't know what percentage
of adults in America have actually,

809
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:15,080
really, honestly been in a fight,
but it's probably not real big.

810
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:17,920
And getting smaller, I think. Yeah.

811
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,480
Back to that distraction thing.

812
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,680
Masala cube has a technique.

813
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,600
I don't know if he developed it,
but he promotes it.

814
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,840
And I think it's really, really smart.

815
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,160
And that is that you take, like,
a $20 bill

816
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,160
and a couple of ones, maybe real obvious,

817
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,600
and put it on a little cheap money clip
and you keep that in your pocket.

818
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:39,800
So if somebody says,
hey, give me your wallet, you say, sure,

819
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,280
you reach in, you throw that money
clip down over there.

820
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,400
Right.

821
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,080
Well, I promise you, he's going to go
get it right, which now

822
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,000
gives you the chance to pull your gun
and claim to run and hide.

823
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,320
To scream like a girl.

824
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,320
I mean, whatever it is you want to do,
but it gives you, you know, a chance.

825
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,760
So that distraction thing.

826
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,520
So your guy choking that guy out,
I don't know if distraction.

827
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:01,960
What? It work.

828
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,560
Sounds like he was a nutcase sometimes.

829
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,440
What's that old southern, adage?

830
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,360
Yeah. He needed killing.

831
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:09,760
You know.

832
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,520
That's absolutely true. Yeah.

833
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,400
And you may you may have not
had any option on that one.

834
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,600
Yeah. And there's another factor.

835
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,680
And it's not necessarily a gun factor,
but it is is the idea was he

836
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,600
110 pounds, soaking
wet and frail and a junkie?

837
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:26,280
I'm a big guy.

838
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:27,360
I've been in fights.

839
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,560
I've been trained
in, you know, hands on type stuff.

840
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,800
I could probably take him
if he's 350 pounds of prison muscle,

841
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,240
I might even be one of those.

842
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:38,760
Don't shoot him.

843
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,280
It just make him angry.

844
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,720
Well, and you know, but again
with those things is that, you know,

845
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,640
you intervene
and then now he's got a razor, you know,

846
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,160
and even though he's a 95 pound weakling,
I mean, one time

847
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,280
I took a prisoner off of a cop sheet,
arrested him for drunk driving,

848
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,840
and he was he was handcuffed
and in the back seat of her police car.

849
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,160
And so we
I was going to transporting to jail

850
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,080
because she was working a drunk
driver enforcement checkpoint.

851
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,840
And so I got him out of the car
and I put my handcuffs on him

852
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,720
because you put your cuffs on first, then
you take the other handcuffs off right.

853
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,680
And so then I patted him down.

854
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,000
And I remember she she had a reputation
for being incompetent.

855
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:22,520
And, I'm not saying all women are
incompetent, but she just happened to be.

856
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:23,040
She was.

857
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,600
It was incompetent. Yeah.

858
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,840
And so she's holding her report.

859
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:27,440
She looked at me.

860
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,920
She said, well, why are you searching him?

861
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,680
Because I already searched him.

862
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,640
And I said, well,
I always search prisoners again.

863
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:33,920
If I'm going to transport.

864
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,960
And I found a little raven

865
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,960
25, automatic in his back rear pocket.

866
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,440
And I remember there were 4
or 5 guys around like this watching, and

867
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,840
I reached in. I as soon as I tapped that,
I knew what it was.

868
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,840
I reached him with two fingers
and pulled it out,

869
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,480
and it was nickel plated
and it was nighttime.

870
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,520
So it was shining and everyone's
put their flashlights on it.

871
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,920
And I said,
this is why I search everybody.

872
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,000
And she went, well, I guess I missed it.

873
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,240
It's like, yeah, no she did. Yeah. So,

874
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,360
so yeah, I reported that I'm sorry.

875
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,120
You don't let that go, you know. Exactly.

876
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,760
And everyone after

877
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,440
she walked over to her, jumped off,
they looked at me and they all said, well.

878
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,720
And I said, yes, I'm
going to tell her, Sergeant.

879
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:18,920
Yeah. You know.

880
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,520
So, Well. Right.

881
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,080
I just looked down at the, clock and
we've been going over our allotted time.

882
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,360
Yeah,
I knew this would be a good discussion,

883
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,600
but I feel like
we've only scratched the surface.

884
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,880
So, if folks want to leave
a comment on YouTube

885
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,560
or drop me a line at editor at,
guns podcast, dot us.

886
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,440
I bet
we probably, answered some questions,

887
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:42,720
and I bet we raised a bunch more.

888
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:47,000
So we'll probably need to do
part two of this, or part three, 4 or 5.

889
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,440
But, I think if I had to summarize,
as Roy said, get training,

890
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,000
be aware of your surroundings,
play the what if game and,

891
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,200
just assume that because you bought a gun
and you strapped it on your hip,

892
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,240
that you are the gunfighter from hell,
and you can handle any circumstance

893
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:05,560
that thrown your way.

894
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,200
That's a recipe for failure.

895
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,200
And if you fail in a
in an armed confrontation.

896
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,280
Well, I hope
I don't have to work that out for you.

897
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,800
So anyway, any final thoughts, Roy, for.

898
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,280
We knocked this thing off.

899
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,280
No, I mean, if you comment, remember,

900
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,520
listen to the whole podcast
as we never once.

901
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:26,880
What?

902
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,000
Don't defend yourself. Exactly.

903
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,000
Never once said that. So. Yep. Okay. Yeah.

904
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,200
Well, I think people
and not to start the discussion again,

905
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,920
but sometimes people get offended
when you hear people like us say, well,

906
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,840
they just think the cops in the military,
the don't.

907
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,280
No, not at all.

908
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,440
I freely admit there's,
a lot of quote unquote private citizens

909
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,920
who are hell,
not better shot than the majority of cops.

910
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,200
But it's not just about shooting skill.

911
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:56,320
It's very important.

912
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,920
But as Roy said, you got to,
you know, know how to shoot, communicate,

913
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,280
move, cover and say all that stuff
and the legal side of it, too.

914
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,600
So just because you have a firearm
doesn't make you the gunfighter from hell.

915
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,760
So anyway, Roy,
thanks again for joining us.

916
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,040
And here's a quick word
from our great sponsor, Ruger.

917
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,600
Whether you're on the range in the field
or protecting your home,

918
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,720
Ruger delivers durability and performance
you can count on.

919
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,080
Discover the full lineup,

920
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,680
explore new releases, and see why
Ruger continues to set the standard.

921
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,880
Visit Ruger Icon today.

922
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,920
Well, thanks for joining us here
on this episode of the Guns

923
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,040
Podcast U.S, brought to you by guns
magazine and sponsored by Ruger.

924
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,920
Make sure you stop by guns magazine.com,
go to the podcast tab.

925
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,120
And we've also got email newsletter.

926
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,920
So sign up if you haven't
and you can get gets

927
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,120
good stuff
delivered to your inbox every day.

928
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,240
Also you might check out
guns podcast dot U.S

929
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,360
we've got links to the show
and we got merch too.

930
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,680
So Christmas is coming up.

931
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,240
Pick up your merch from your
what I hope is your favorite podcast.

932
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:09,440
So on behalf of Roy Huntington,
of course I am Brent Wheat,

933
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,960
the host of guns podcast
Dot U.S, reminding you yet again.

934
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:15,040
Now get out there and get shooting.