205 | Aggressive Play in the Playroom & Transitioning Kids to CCPT: Three Questions Answered

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

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Your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi, I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks, The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class and child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode. I am answering a couple of questions from Texiee

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in Michigan

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and she has written in before. Actually, Grace had written in before as well.

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So thank you for being repeat question

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requesters. I don't really know what I should call you all.

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Thank you for listening as long as you've been listening,

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but thank you for sending in repeat questions as well.

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So Texiee and Michigan had three questions and again, just to kind of make it easy,

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I'm going to answer all of them in one episode.

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So let's read through a little bit of her

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email and then we'll talk through some of these.

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So the first is I have a child who is definitely in work and aggression

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for the past several weeks. She has come in and set up a scene of good guy versus bad guy

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depending on a moment by moment basis.

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Sometimes I'm a good guy with her and sometimes I'm a bad guy

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when I'm a bad guy.

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Typically I get shot and killed and then she revives me within 20 to 30 seconds

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overall. I think I'm ok with aggressive play.

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What I'm struggling with is how she's killing me.

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Most of the time she holds a gun to my head and shoots me point blank

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In the podcast.

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I've heard you say things like the play

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room is where kids can engage in socially unacceptable

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behaviors as they work their aggression in a safe

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place where they're accepted unconditionally by the therapist.

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Yes, Texie, thank you for hearing that in earlier podcasts.

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However, in one episode,

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you talked about when children want to reenact sexual trauma with a therapist

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and setting a limit around this type of play for obvious reasons.

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I've run through the litmus test and I feel

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that I can accept the child with this behavior.

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We have a good relationship and good rapport and what started

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as 15 to 20 kills per session is lessening each session.

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Last week. I only died three times

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huge win. We will celebrate that

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overall.

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I'm wondering if this is a type of behavior that

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warrants limit setting by nature of the type of killing.

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Ok. Absolutely not. Unless

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you go through the three questions and assess that for you personally,

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it warrants a limit.

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So let's tease that apart.

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First and foremost,

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play is relative

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what I mean? By that is

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shooting you point blank in the head.

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OK, let me go back a second.

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Point blank is also relative. So

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I think what I'm trying to say is I've had kids

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literally hold the gun up to my skull and fire.

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And then I've had kids hold it a foot in front of my face and then I've had

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kids hold it 2 ft in front of my face and 3 ft in front of my face.

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I would consider all of those point blank range.

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But I also feel that when they hold it up to your skull and then pull the trigger

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that seems more intense and more menacing and more aggressive.

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So I don't know where she's falling in this point blank range. But

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I think the ones that I feel are the most

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heavy if you will

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are the ones where they actually hold it right

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up against your head and pull the trigger.

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Ok? But

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let's get back to play is relative.

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So for her,

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that might not mean anything other than

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she knows that she's gonna shoot you. So she's gonna walk up and just shoot you.

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There might not be a deeper, darker,

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heavier meaning for her.

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If I'm gonna shoot you, I'm just gonna shoot you close.

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Why would I go stand on the other side of the room to shoot you?

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I might miss if I'm this close, I know that I can hit you.

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So we don't really know why she's playing this way.

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In that case,

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we have to provide unconditional acceptance as a CCPT therapist number one.

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And we grant in fantasy, what we can't grant in reality.

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You alluded to that earlier in that portion of the email.

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So by unconditionally accepting her

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and by granting in fantasy, what we can't grant in reality

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if she wants to come in and shoot us at point point blank range.

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there's a reason for it and we already know

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why you mentioned she's doing good versus bad play.

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That's huge. Work.

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Good versus bad play is a very, very important theme.

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And the fact that she goes back and forth between who's good and who's bad,

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that's also significant.

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And the fact that we've seen a reduction in the number of times that you're dying,

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that's hugely significant.

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So

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all everything you're describing, Texie is she's doing really, really impactful,

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meaningful work and the fact that you've not set limits,

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it's clearly allowing her to process and deal with the things that she needs to.

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But getting back to your question,

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I'm wondering if this is a type of behavior that

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warrants limit setting by nature of the type of killing

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for me. Absolutely not

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for other therapists maybe.

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So our litmus test if you will is,

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is this limit necessary?

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Can I consistently enforce this limit?

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And if I don't set a limit,

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can I allow this behavior to continue and still accept the child.

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And what you mentioned in that part of the email is

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it sounds as though you've realized that you can accept her

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and you don't feel that the limit is necessary.

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So therefore, the only reason we would set a limit in that scenario would be to quote,

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impart a lesson

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and that's not CCPT adherent.

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So if you're ok with the behavior,

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you're ok with the aggression and you can accept the child

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how she kills you becomes irrelevant.

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We instead catalog

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the root issue.

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We catalog the theme, we catalog the progress, the shifts, the changes.

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Those are then what our focus shifts to

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because

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whether she strangles us, stabs us, shoots us point blank.

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It doesn't really matter. There's all kinds of ways that we can die. I mean, you know,

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there are really not pleasant ways to die. Let's be real.

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You can suffocate, you can drown, you can burn, you can

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jump off a bridge, you can get shot stabbed.

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I mean, none of these are pleasant and enjoyable.

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I think they're all pretty aggressive and

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heavy really.

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So the only way that we would need to set a limit on the way that she's killing you

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would be to somehow impart some kind of lesson or rule.

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But in this scenario, as evidenced by her progress,

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we know that the fact that you haven't been setting

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limits has afforded her the opportunity to work through stuff.

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OK.

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Number two, she says sub question to my initial question when I'm dead,

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should I be silent or should I still be reflecting, content and feelings?

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Also a question, we talk about a lot in the coaching and in the collective.

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All right. So we are always going to still respond

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if we're dead

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unless the child

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blatantly refuses to let us do. So.

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In other words, if we try to say something and they go, you can't talk, you're dead,

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then we've been given a cue that we need to be silent for longer.

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It doesn't mean we stop talking.

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General,

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I've mentioned this a lot. We cannot do our job if we don't talk.

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So whether a child kills us and we're dead or they tell us

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we're not allowed to speak because it's a power and control scenario,

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regardless of the scenario,

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we cannot do our jobs and we are not therapeutically engaging with a child

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if we are not talking.

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So then in that scenario, we whisper our response,

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we space out and give longer amounts of time in between what we say,

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but we never are completely silent,

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even if the child has said you're not allowed to talk.

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So then we would whisper

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and we would take a little longer before we would respond

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because

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we want to make sure that we are still engaging in a therapeutically valuable way.

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Even when we're playing a role or when we've been commanded not to do something

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and related aside, to that

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if they move on. So if they kill you

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and then they get up and start playing with legos,

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if they have moved on in their play,

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so they're no longer playing out whatever had happened to kill you.

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So if it was good versus bad Texie

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in your scenario,

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if all of a sudden we've moved on from good versus

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bad play and now we're doing competence play in LEGO building,

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you assume that you are also able to move on.

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So if you had been shot dead

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and you were laying on the floor, as soon as she moves to legos,

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you are no longer dead and you assume that you

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can rengage as if that was not a factor anymore.

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Now, every once in a while the child will go. No, you're still dead

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and then you go, oh gosh, I'm still dead. Ok?

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And then you lay back down.

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But unless they correct you and tell you that you

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still have to play that role or in that capacity,

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you wanna make sure that you transition with them

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because I've watched lots of play sessions where the therapist is still laying

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on the floor or still has their eyes closed or is still kind of

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in that earlier play.

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And the child had been doing something else for 10, 15, 20 minutes.

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It's really,

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really hard to engage and toes follow your nose

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and use the reflective responses and use the pillars.

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If you are still stuck in a scenario that we've long moved past.

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All right. And then third question.

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I have a handful of kids that I started with CCPT

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and a handful of kids that I started with regular run of the mill.

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Uno playing, calm down jars CBT worksheets type of therapy.

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Ah,

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with my own.

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Oh, ok. That's enough with my own little mini experiment.

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My CCPT kids are making progress.

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Thank God

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and my hodgepodge kids are not.

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And then she puts in parentheses, I'm sure you're shocked. Actually. Texie,

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I'm not. But I'm glad that you realized the difference.

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Is there a way to transition my hodgepodge kids into CCPT?

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And if so what's the best strategy to do that?

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I am so happy that you're asking this question.

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I actually get asked this question a lot too.

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So I'm so glad that we're talking about this.

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Thank you for wanting to transition all of your kids into CCPT.

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Once it finds you and once you're in the lane,

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you're all in

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always and forever.

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So I'm really, really happy that you want to and I really like the hodgepodge.

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I love the whole that whole scenario, my hodgepodge kids.

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I might steal it from you Texie.

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All right. So here's, here are my thoughts on that. Number one.

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You have to have a conversation with parents first.

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So you have to sit down and you have to provide rationale and why

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you're going to switch and what that's going to

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mean and what that's going to look like.

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Parents have to be on board. Parents have to be supportive

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and you have to sell them. I'm air quoting

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you have to sell them on the idea

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of going in a different direction therapeutically.

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So that's about articulation, that's about communication.

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You need to give them the why and in your case,

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you can actually use

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your real life kids as a story you can say.

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So some of my kids, I found out about CCPT.

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I've really been diving into the theory and

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I started working with your child before that happened.

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But in the, in the children that I've recently started working with

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and the ones that I've been CCPT from the beginning,

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I'm seeing huge growth, I'm seeing huge progress.

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There are big changes taking place.

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And that leads me to believe that that is the approach

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that I need to do with all of my kids.

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So I would like to transition your kid out

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of the more directive therapy that we've been doing

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into CCPT. Here's what that looks like.

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Here's the explanation that you need to be aware of, et cetera, et cetera.

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So then it would essentially be like an initial PC all over again

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where you are giving them an explanation of what it is

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and et cetera, et cetera.

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If parents are brought in and supportive.

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Then you sit down with the child as soon as they come in for your next session.

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And you say,

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I know in the past

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that

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I've had some things planned when you come in

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or I know in the past we've done worksheets or I know in the past we've done.

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What did you say? Calm down jars. I don't even know what that means.

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So

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I know in the past we've done fill in the blank.

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But

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moving forward,

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you're gonna get to be in charge when you come here

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and you just get to play with all the toys in most of the ways that you want to,

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I'm not gonna be in charge anymore.

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It's just as simple as that.

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It's that simple of a conversation.

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Now, is there going to be some push back sometimes?

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Is there going to be an adjustment? Of course, is

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it going to require a little bit of a new initiation and warm up stage and phase?

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Yes,

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because they went through the process of building relationship

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and rapport and trust with you under one context

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shifting it where they're in charge that changes things.

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So is there going to be a little bit of a reboot that needs to take place? Yes.

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Are there going to be some fluff weeks where they're just kind of trying to figure

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out what in the world this whole I get to be in charge thing is all about

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Yes.

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So do we stall progress and momentum? Just a smidge in the interim,

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probably.

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But

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so many of my CCPTs in the coaching program and the Collective,

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even podcast listeners have reached out

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many of you all and gosh, this makes me so happy to say, literally,

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my heart sings to say this out loud.

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Many of you

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have said I'm all in and I, I'm going to right midstream, convert my kids.

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I'm not gonna wait until I finish and start with new ones,

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even the ones that I've been directed with, I'm going to completely change.

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I'm going to be all in. I'm CCPT adherent

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forever. Now. Therefore, my kids have to transition, what do I need to do?

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And it has been extremely successful once you get over the little, you know,

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adjustment period, right?

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So change is a little bit hard,

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but parents need to be on board first. You help children understand what to expect

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and then you stay adherent. If you tell them, you get to be in charge in here,

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you don't go back on that and you don't suggest something and

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you don't have an agenda and there's no curriculum and there's no,

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hey, let's do this coping skills, whatever

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you stay adherent to CCPT.

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Because if you say you're gonna be in charge from here on out,

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that needs to mean something

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and the child needs to come to expect that that is true.

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So, Texie, that would be what I would suggest to do that. I promise you.

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I've watched it happen over and over and over again with so many therapists

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and it has worked.

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So I really do encourage you to do it and I think you'll be so pleased

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with the results.

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I've had, gosh, dozens of therapists say

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as soon as I switch to CCPT

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and as soon as we got over the hurdle of it being new and different and strange

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kids just took off and it's very clearly what they needed all along.

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And that's why we do this.

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That's why CCPT is effective because this is what kids need.

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So, Texie, thank you so much for the questions.

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If you would like to reach out to me,

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I'd love to hear from you brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

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You can also leave a voicemail question at 813-812-5525. If you're in the States

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and I look forward to talking with you all again soon. Love you. Bye.

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Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr

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Brenna Hicks for more episodes and resources.

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Please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.