Episode 30: Experimenting

Hi everybody, welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. Lori and I, before we started recording,
just started talking about training again and
then we're like, oh shoot, we should be recording
this because this is really interesting. You
know, the reality is we're always training and
we're always learning and we're always trying
to figure things out and trying to make things
better for our dogs. Right. And ultimately, in
our case, we're trying to make our dogs more
comfortable in the ring with the understanding
that what they are doing in our sport. and I'm
not saying this isn't true in most sports, right,
is that they're being tested. If they're being
tested, what? It's hard, right? There's a reason
it's hard. It's a test. Therefore, the dogs are
struggling to a certain extent, and there is
no way around that. So in a perfect world, our...
vision is that we want the dogs in the ring to
be happy and comfortable and to and we have a
vision of what that would look like right so
like I have a vision that that looks like Zaina
you know happy -go -lucky glumping around hippity
-hoppitying prancy pantsing And basically like
I'm concerned with the judge and with the environment.
So that was beyond a struggle for me to get even
remotely close to that with deal. And I don't
really think I achieved it till he was like eight.
And so basically we started talking about Lori's
dog ever and my dog Zesty. Because they go in
the ring and a lot of times they look like they're
going to die. Right. And to me, to me. So this
is my personal experience. I feel when I watch
Dusty, sometimes he looks like I never reinforce
him. I never do anything fun with him. Like the
way he acts in the ring to me looks like I harass
the living shit out of him for friends and precision.
None of which I do. Right. Like he'll trot back
on a retrieve. When I tell you I have done thousands
of motivational retrieves in every possible way
I could possibly think of from puppyhood on.
Right. Why is he trotting back? And he just looks
slow and worried and flat and unsure. And times
that will also lead to him failing, you know,
making a mistake because he's all like caught
up in his head. Right. So you want to talk about
your version of that with ever? Yeah, it's it
runs very parallel to that where. you know, the
thing is, it's like trait, like when we're trait,
like this, we always go back, this is the hardest
part, right? Like we always talk about this.
And to me, like, this is what I tell all my students,
like, it is the hardest part getting from that,
from training into trialing, like into the ring
and getting that, that optimal performance, right?
And My thing with Ever is the same thing. When
I'm training her, same thing. We play the games.
I make things motivational because we want to
make sure that there's enough in the bank. We
want to make sure that they're motivated enough
to do the thing. We want to make sure that...
They have great feelings attached to these behaviors
we're asking them to do under the circumstances
and the environment we're putting them in, the
trial environment. What happens, I feel like,
with Ever is I do a bunch of that. And, of course,
like, she gets totally, like, zesty. Like, they
go fucking nuts. Like, they're totally different
in training when we do that. They're fast. They're
totally engaged with us. Yeah, confident. I mean,
I get barking. I get spins. I get offering. And,
like, that feels good. Like, we, right? Like,
that, like, we love that. Cause that's kind of
what we want. That's like you said, like I have
this picture in my head. I love whenever looks
like that. I love when she's edgy, you know,
like that edgy, edgy look to her. But in truth,
when I go to the trial, I don't get that. Like,
this is the problem. Like I'll go in and. Same
thing. Like I'll get it a little bit here and
there, but then she worries and it is who she
is. Like she totally cares. This dog cares so
much about being right. Like that, like that
is like her number one thing is just to absolutely
do the right thing. And if she is like, like
you said, like they get in their head about it.
Like if you ever watch. ever do articles. You're
going to see she goes out to the pile and she
literally like goes from article to article like
a poisonous snake's about to freaking bite her
in the pile. Like it is like painful to watch
and I hate it. Like I freaking hate it. So what
do I do in training? I motivate. I do games.
I've put cookies in the pile. I am always trying
to like create it so that she's happier, wants
to go out to the pile. But in essence, that is
who she is. Like that is actually who she is
in life. That is how she is in my house. The
dog is not a high arousal dog in life. Like she
literally will be on the couch 24 seven. Like
she, she's not crazy in the house. She's not
like. that's just who she is and she's super
careful in the house like she she cares about
everything in the house if we raise our voices
in the house she like slinks off like we beat
her we've never beat her so this is like this
is my like this is my big thing with ever right
now is that Like I need to be okay with her being
in low arousal. And I also need to learn to train
her in low arousal because that, yeah. That's
the thing. So I think what happens is we go and
a lot of people do this, right? And I, I've been
thinking about this with Ever and meaning to
like bring it up because it's kind of like for
certain dogs, when we, when we're. It's almost
like we're not consciously, we're using arousal,
but we're really masking the underlying issue,
right? So I realized last year at some point,
I was like, okay, this is all great, this stuff
I'm doing in training, but this is not how he
is in the ring. Like I need to train him the
way he is. In the ring. Exactly. And then I need
to explain to him when you're in this state.
This that's OK, but you still need to either
push through and, you know, complete the task.
Right. Or run out and run back, for example.
Right. Right. I said, OK, so. I took him to a
store and instead of bringing his meal and, you
know, doing all these shenanigans, I just brought
my usual stuff, warmed him up, pretended, did
my pretend ring entrance, what I always do and
like started working him. And he was exactly
like in the ring. Right. Which I think there's
several reasons for that. One is he just like
ever. Not in life, but he desperately, desperately
cares about being right. Doesn't matter that
he never gets in trouble for making mistakes
or anything like that. It is who he is. It's
who Zeal was. Zeal wouldn't make a mistake. And
I didn't even have to say anything because he's
already going down a rabbit hole. Yeah, that's
ever. Right? So I would never say to him, like,
you're wrong. With Zest, like, it's just, it's
who he is. That's his personality. They don't
want to be wrong. Okay, which means they're trying
really hard. Well, what happens as a human when
we try really hard? Well, we concentrate really
hard and then we tend to slow down, right? Now
add in distractions. So if we were recording
this podcast, like at Starbucks, I'm already
concentrating hard. I would have to concentrate
so much harder. I would probably be talking slower.
I would lose train of my thought because it's
distracting. Right. Right. Right. Part of what
happens with zest is like, and if you think about
it is he's basically doing calculus in a distracting
environment. Right. And so as ever. So now they
really care about being right. They don't want
to be wrong. There's stuff going on around them.
They're like, oh, God, I have to tune it out.
Maybe they're not. Maybe they're worried about
it. Maybe they're not. But either way, they have
to think extra hard, which is going to slow them
down. Right. And then I think what had happened
was like I'm rehearsing so much in a different
arousal state that I'm really not rehearsing
and giving him information in the state. That
he is in when he's in a trial. Correct. Well,
instead of in that moment when he starts to get
flat or whatever you want to call it, I really
shouldn't even label it when he gets the way
I don't like him to be, which because maybe he's
not even being flat. Maybe it's just a matter
of like intense concentration. Right. Right.
That's where I have to give him information.
Right. This is where I have to say to him. Good
job, buddy. That's correct. Even though there's
this little piece inside me, that's like, Oh,
I freaking hate that. I wish he did it faster,
whatever that like evil monster inside me. Right.
So, and that doesn't mean that I'm still not
on some level striving for that, but I just need
to approach it very differently. And in the meantime,
and maybe forever, who knows, I have to accept.
who he is and that this is how he works when
he's in this situation specifically. So when
he's in that situation working like that, that's
when I'm saying to him, okay, buddy, that was
good. Or, oh, buddy, that's not correct. Let's
try that again. I don't care if it's not fast,
but it has to be correct. So now I'm working
him. In the state that he is actually in. Right.
Now, does that mean I never do player toys or
food? No. Does that mean I wasn't in my garage
the other day doing like playing around with
like doing steady, like silence to explosion
and blah, blah, blah. Yep. I was. Will that stuff
work at some point? Possibly. Right. Why? It's
why I'm endlessly tinkering because I always
want to see, can I figure it out? But at the
end of the day, I've been thinking an enormous
amount about the fact that like there is nothing
wrong. I have to write my head defining him trotting
back as being wrong. Right. And that's the same
boat. I I've been in with ever and it and it
was so crazy because I had been in Syracuse last
weekend and I was going through all this with
ever like it was like this roller coaster ride
of three days of trialing with her. And like
I was like, you know, it's good. It's not good.
It's good. It's not going good. Like it was not
it was it was horrible. And then driving home,
I'm just like I didn't. Cause you were like,
how's it going? What's going on? And a couple
other people. And I was like, I'm just, I need,
I don't even know how to answer it because I
was like, I need to sit, I need to figure this
out. Like I, there's, there is a way to fix this
with this dog. Like, not that I'm looking for
like the magic pill, but I'm like, I'm doing
something wrong. Like I'm approaching this. incorrectly.
And so I drove four hours thinking about it,
going back with all the things. And then I came
to the conclusion at the end of my ride and I
was just like, I have to be okay with her operating
like that. And I need to, like you said, like
I need to like train her. when she's like that,
like I need to train her in those moments to,
to try to like be able to work through it. Like,
so that in the ring I can work through it. Cause
what happens with ever is like, she'll start
to get worried. Like literally I can see it on
her face. Like, and I can't help, but get annoyed
in my head. Like it's in my head. I can't help
it. I'm like, Oh God. Or I start to panic. Like
it's hard not to go there. And then I would be
like, all right, I would try to bring her up.
Like, let me try to bring her up. Let me try
to bring her up. Sometimes that would work and
I would get her to come up a little bit, but,
or she'd come up and bark at me. So that was
an issue because that's what happens in training.
Like I get her up and we bark and we go crazy
and we bark, but I can't have her barking in
the ring. So I'm just trying to figure out. I
need to, I need to, it's, I don't even know how
to explain it. It's like, I'm trying to find
that optimal balance, you know? So the other
day, so I got home. Well, hold on. Let me just
backtrack for a second. Cause what you told me
earlier, which I think is super important is
that tell them what you've been doing with her
since the classic, because if you really think
about it, Yeah, right, right, right. It's raining,
but it's nothing like in the rain. Right. Nothing.
So since I've been home from the classic, like
absentmindedly not paying attention. And this
was like when I was like driving home from Syracuse.
I'm like, you're a fucking dumbass. Like everything
you've been doing for the past four weeks since
the classic has been nothing but stupid jackpot
motivational games. Like literally. I'm not paying
attention enough to making sure that I'm putting
in, mindfully putting in like formal picture.
You know, I've just been doing tons of motivational
stuff. So then I go to Syracuse and like, that's
the thing. Like I can't get her. We do, we do
tons of. tons of stuff in the in our training
where she's spinning and barking and then like
like she'll do something great and i'm like yes
you know how we are like when we're doing motivational
training like well we can't fucking do that at
the trial right so well it's different but also
like some dogs can't concentrate in that state
of arousal right right right zeal when he was
learning i used to try and make him because that's
how we did it back in the day right you teach
everything fast because if you don't teach it
fast they're going to be slow and zeal was like
nope can't do it nope can't do it like he refused
he's like i cannot learn in that state and i
remember i don't know i may have said this on
the podcast before like i was at a store once
doing signals and they were so hard for zest
back in the day like so hard because he hated
being out there by himself so i'm like tugging
tugging and then i'm like let's do signals and
then he did it and i'm like toy and he's like
no i don't want the toy yeah yeah like why don't
you want the toy toy and he's like nope i don't
want the toy and i'm like shit is he sick like
are you okay like i'm trying to figure it out
and he's like no I'm good. And I'm like, huh?
I'm like, all right, let me do another rep and
see like, see if I think he's like not feeling
good. Like what's going on? Does the rep beautifully?
I go, yes. He wanted food because he's in lower
arousal with food. And he's like, I cannot do
this activity that requires, that is so hard
for me and requires so much concentration and
effort. I can't do it. in high arousal so like
when you were saying how in the ring because
i had this with zeal and it's the same with zask
he goes flat and i start going come up come up
come up and he's like no no no coming up can't
do it and then i'm like shit right and then what
i did with zeal i learned was i did the complete
something that's completely counterintuitive
which is he would get nervous and I would give
him my calm cue. Say what? He would be flat and
nervous. Well, the calm cue was actually reassuring
and he's anxious. So it was helping control his
anxiety, right? And I was basically, it was saying
to him, it's all right, buddy, you're fine. I
got you. You're good, dude. You're fine. And
it worked like a freaking charm. And that's exactly
what I'm doing with Ever. Like, because when
she goes down like that, I know she then goes,
oh God, I know I'm not supposed to be acting
like this because I'm sure she's felt my annoyance
and like aggravation with that. And it just makes
everything worse with her. So now I am giving
her like, this is what I'm like starting to put
in my training. Like when. she starts to look
a little worried, right? I am like, you know,
we're just trying, we're trying all different
kinds of things. Like this is what we do. We
got to, you know, this is what we do in training.
Right. So I'm like, I bend down to her and I
like pet her and she is like, fucking thank fucking
God. Like I keep like the relief on this dog
just for me to bend down for that. quick second
and just pet her and let her go through my legs,
I can feel she's like, thank fucking God. And
then I go, okay, set up. And she's like, okay,
good. I'm ready now. Like it's been, I don't
know if it's going to hold up. I'm trialing tomorrow.
So I'm going to let y 'all fucking know, but
it's okay. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes.
And so in essence, I do think sometimes like
they, even though I'm saying, zesty bounce bounce
like to him there's probably like a little bit
of there could be some pressure in there that
he's feeling whether or not we intend it or not
They could be feeling pressure and then they
feel, then that's a negative thing to them. Right.
Well, especially these dogs, because they care
so much about being right. So if he can't bounce
in the moment, he's going to go, Oh fuck, I can't
do it. Oh fuck, I'm making a mistake again. We're
saying it's okay. You're fine. You're doing a
good job. It's all good. Let's just keep going.
Right. And move on. Exactly. You know, look.
Will it work tomorrow? Maybe, maybe not because
you just started doing that, right? Like we have
to be fair and say, okay, like maybe it will
work right away, but maybe we just need more
time to put, you know, put that in training and
make that part of a chain, right? Because like
what I found with zest at the time too was. When
the chain was a little longer, he would start
to get worried. Like, oh God, am I doing everything
okay? Am I doing everything right? And I would
just have to be like, yeah, buddy, you're doing
good, really good. You know, you're okay. Sometimes
they just need us to just say, it's all good.
You're fine. Let's keep going, right? Rather
than us trying so hard to say, come on, bounce,
you know, whatever cues we use. to get them up
because we want them up. And I, you know, these
dogs may or may not ever be those super flashy
dogs that look like they're having a blast in
the ring, not because they're necessarily miserable,
but because they're trying so hard. Right, right.
They're trying so hard. And it doesn't matter
like how much I set my training up so that they're
successful and that they're right. And that I'm
building confidence and I'm, we're like, you're
great. You're doing amazing. Like, um, I do think
like over time, I do see Zesty getting better
over time. Right. But like at some point I just
have to be like, it's okay. Like, you know, you,
you tried it back from your articles. It's fine.
Like it's fine. Just because I want you to run
and then bounce and then your ears to be like,
this is how you do it, you know, in this environment.
And again, it's not like we're not going to keep
trying to motivate and keep it fun and blah,
blah, blah. But, um, and there's also, like I
said, there's value to them because We were taught
back in the day, and that's still kind of a thing,
right? Because, again, yay social media, right?
All you see, you don't see videos of dogs doing
workman -like work, right? You see dogs flying
fast. throwing themselves to the ground, leaping
into a stand, spinning, jumping. That's sexy.
It's fancy. And then everybody feels like if
we don't have that, we're failing, right? Like
our dog sucks. It's sucky. Like I just went through
this with a student. It's not the first time,
right? She has a dog very similar to Zesty. Cares.
This poor woman turns herself inside out for
a happy dog, right? And the dog's very serious
and it's very thoughtful and it does not want
to be wrong. And all she's doing in a way inadvertently
is muddying the waters for the dog, right? And
making herself so frustrated because you feel
like a failure because you're not making your
dog, quote unquote. happy happy the reality is
based on the breed based on the dog's personality
based on who this dog is it is doing the best
it can right and that is the way it looks and
it's not wrong and it doesn't mean the dog is
unhappy or the dog is miserable or she's a bad
trainer or the training's not fun that's just
who the dog that dog is yeah yeah That is. And
there are. I mean, there is. I mean, there's
there's a couple dogs out there, one in particular,
you know, that's got like literally like 37 on
it. And if you and the dog like. Is just clocks
around the ring and wins because it just does
its job and it's not flashy and it's not fast,
you know, and. that's just who the dog is. Like,
that's just who the dog is. And it's our reading
too. It's like in our mind, we have, I know I
do. I'll speak for myself. I have an image that
if my dog is, this is how my dog looks when it's
quote unquote happy. And that's how I want it
to look in the ring. Yep. If it doesn't look
like that, it is. Unhappy, therefore I failed.
But maybe my dog is not unhappy. Maybe my dog
is just no different than when I'm in the ring
and I look pissed off. I'm not. No, I know you're
not. I know you're not. But try to convince other
people of that. I'm sure they wouldn't believe
it because that is absolutely how I look. When
I'm concentrating really hard, really hard. Right.
So maybe part of this is we're misinterpreting.
Like we have created this absolute happy, not
happy. And that's the thing. Like, so when I'm
standing there and I see ever out there at the
article pile. Right. And she's like, literally.
I don't even know how to explain it. I mean,
literally tiptoeing through the pile. Like, she's
working. She goes to each one. Like, it is so
painfully slow. And I'm in my head. I'm like,
Jesus fucking Christ. It's hard not to, but like
the past couple of days I sent her out to her
articles and I'm just like, this is how my dog
sends her articles. This is how she works her
articles. Will it get better? Maybe. But as long
as she does her job and brings it back and this
is how she does it, it's fine. Like I, that's
what, you know, like these are the things I'm
trying to get in my head. And I can't like exude
any of those emotions because she's going to
pick up on it. Like the dog reads my face. Like,
like the second she comes back for brunch, she's
looking at me and I can tell like she's scanning
for any sort of like emotional disappointment
in my face. Yeah. So it's like, it's just a mind
shift. Right. And it's hard. Like it's really
hard. And I do think like. with the whole arousal
thing too like a lot of times we're trying so
hard and I see a lot of people do this like the
minute they see something that they don't like
with their dog or they're not sure what their
dog or the dog looks slightly uncomfortable grab
the toy make the toy friend make the dog frantic
and then but in essence I think what we're a
lot of times doing is we're just masking what's
underneath it. We're not really addressing the
entity and we're not meeting the dog where the
dog is. We're trying to force the dog to be something
and do something that they're not comfortable
doing. So the irony is in our attempt to make
the dog happy and comfortable, we're probably
making it uncomfortable. Right. Right. And that's
what causes like the failure, like for real.
It is. It does. Like, that's what I like. That's
what's going on right now with ever. And I like,
that's what I'm trying to work through for sure.
And like all the things, you know, and that's
the thing, like, you know, even went like, so
the past couple of days of training, like. I'm
trying to also like do everything. I want to
like replicate so much that like all of my, I
want to be able to tell her how right and how
good she's being in a legal way and in a bridge
version of it where I don't have, I can't use
a reinforcer. You know what I mean? Like, that's
my other thing is like, like. Like, my new thing
is, like, I'm doing this, like, wow. Like, that's
like that. Remember we talked about that? Like,
coming up with a word. Yeah. As a gambling cue
or whatever. Yeah. And that, like, that really
has helped. I mean, in the past three or four
days even. And being able to like tell her you're
on the right track. It doesn't matter that you
were a little slow. You're doing fine. And she's
like, I'm seeing like this dog is like, oh God,
thank God. Thank God you're okay with that. I
think she was like, that was like half our problem
was like she, she was interpreting when she went,
when she went down like that, then she was attaching
like, I must be, this, this is wrong. And that's
when, like, it would just go spiral downward.
And that's when we'll fail an exercise. Because
instinct is, come on, come up, bring the dog
up, bring the dog up. Our instinct is not to
say, good dog. That's it. You're fine. Wait,
what do you mean you're fine? You just did that
slow as molasses. I hated it. Right? So, no,
like, it's good dog. that was really good. Good
job. Let's go. Like maybe that's, it doesn't
have to be any more complicated than that. Right.
That's what I did with zeal at the, when I finally
figured it all out, I would just look down exercise
finish and I would just go, good boy. Yeah. Boy.
Right. And like hold his head. And then I'd move
to the next position. If I sat him down and he
was like, I just squeeze his head and I'd go.
good good dog and even Zaina sometimes I'll see
in her face she's like she gets a little worried
or stressy something all of a sudden bothers
her right and in that moment I used to do all
this other stuff at that no I just go good girl
good boom she instant it's fascinating she instantly
slaps out of it yeah because they're like oh
good thank god like that's a good girl Good girl.
Literally, that is all I do. And she goes, OK.
And then, boom, she's back and off we go. And
I continue on as if nothing ever happened. Right.
So. That's what I think. And that's what I did
with Zeal. I mean, I'm sorry, Zesty, like I showed
a couple of times or whatever. So this the next
the first class, you know, I hated. And then
the second class, I was like, all right, stop
trying so hard, just whatever. And I was just
like, right here. Good boy. That's it. That's
all we did right here. Pay attention. Good boy.
Right. Because the other tricky thing is with
Zesty. He looks he looks like he's going to die
in two separate scenarios. One, when he's trying
so hard that smoke's coming out of his ears.
And the other though, is if he's distracted and
kind of not giving me as much effort to ignore
the distractions as he should. But in that situation,
like I never interpreted as that because I'm
like, oh, poor dog. Oh, he's, are you okay, buddy?
Oh God. You know, and sometimes I just need to
be like, dude, leave that alone, pay attention.
And then he's like, oh, okay. And I'm like, really?
You just faked me out. Like totally tricked me.
Right. So, but I don't even have to do anything
crazy with him. Cause again, at the end of the
day, he wants to be right. Right. So I just go
right here, pay attention. And then I go, good,
that's it. And then that's what I did the second
class. And the last and the next day, it wasn't
the exact, whatever. The next time I went in
the ring and it was night and day better. Right.
And. Did he run back on every single exercise?
No. Do I wish he did? Yes. Do I accept that he
didn't? yes right did i go back and look at my
videos and you know what zeal trotted some back
sometimes not all the time but sometimes tyler
always tried it back from articles in part and
i think he trotted to them too because he was
so big and the article was never that far yeah
like why never crossed my mind like oh i wish
he would run right like but at some point i decided
the dog should run and the dog like am And same
with the articles like zesty. I mean, I started
doing nose work with him. He is a machine. Like,
it's fascinating. Does he do his articles like
that? No. I'm like, what are you doing? Sniff
each same like sniff each article. I'm like,
you don't need to do that. Right. I've done thousands
of games, like a million things. He goes in the
ring, runs, sometimes, sometimes shots out. does
his articles. I'm like, Oh my God, chats back.
Right. So maybe that's how he'll do his articles
forever. And maybe I just have to accept that.
Like he doesn't do them wrong. He doesn't pick
up the wrong article. He doesn't fumble. He does
nothing wrong. Right. Like there's nothing scorable
in what he's doing. It's just like, and so I
stopped taking pressure off that. Like, you know,
I have to mentally take pressure off myself.
And him, I have to stop in the ring. I have to
just be like, good boy, that's good. In training,
sure, I can still try, but maybe it'll change
down the road. Maybe it won't, right? But either
way, it's not, I think the big takeaway is it's
not that he's miserable or unhappy or that we're
failing as trainers. Because we care that our
dogs, whether or not our dogs are happy. Right.
Sometimes it's just who the dog is. I think so,
too. I think that's a big piece of it, because
I think, you know, we definitely we inadvertently
put the pressure on when we want it to be a certain
way. And then we get like a little bit of, you
know, that like obsession thing going where like.
I can figure this out. I can make it faster.
What else can I do? What solution is out there
to make the dog run out, run back? And, you know,
absentmindedly we're just kind of putting added
pressure on, you know, like I, even today, like
I trained ever and I, I did, I like had two sets
of piles of articles out. So I would go, I went
and did two articles, normal stuff, you know,
her normal. trotted out ears back did her little
dainty sniff sniff sniff sniff sniff grabs the
article and like she picks the article up like
she doesn't even fly back like she picks it up
like there's always a second of like oh my god
is she gonna fucking come back and then she does
and she trots back hits her front I take it finish
boom like nothing is scorable about it but of
course like in our heads we're like Oh my God,
the dog. And I've literally been at trials and
people come out, they're like, what's up with
your articles? And I'm like, I've never corrected
the dog in an article pile. Like, I don't know
what to say. That's the thing, right? Like we've
never corrected them. We don't get on their case.
We don't harass them. We don't harass them for
frantic. We do everything motivational. And I
think part of it then, like, well, I know for
me, that's part of it. I'll be in the ring and
I'm like, people are going to think like, what
the hell? I beat my dog or that I harassed the
shit out of my dog or, you know, and I'm like,
and it's like, I have to stop thinking like that.
Like, I just have to think about it. It's who
they are. And how is this dog working? And like,
even in training, like, uh, it's, it's so crazy.
Like, thank God, like the, um, I, the two people
I train with now, like once or twice a week.
And like, I don't know, the other day I was healing
and I'm like, is his head high enough? I need
to get his head higher. I don't know. And they
both go, his head is very high. And I go, okay,
I'm being crazy. Like that was the way of saying,
like, don't. So, and I said to them, and cause
I feel like I'm like, okay, I, I acknowledge
out loud. I have a problem. Like, I'm always
like, can it be better? Can I do more? They hold
me accountable, right? That's good. It's fine.
Like, it's okay. Like my dog runs to the go out
at a child canters, like all the way out. No
hint of slowing down, no hint of anticipation.
And I'm like, is that fast enough? Like, is he
going to start slowing down? I got my God, like,
I know. And you know, I was thinking like, I
don't know I like I so I did I did her article
say and then I went I went and did some other
stuff and then I went back to and I went to the
other pile and the whole time I'm like every
time she did one I'm like that was so good buddy
wow lean down rubbed her she was like oh really
oh good like all right so by the time I got to
my like third or fourth article She was going
out like I could see like the weight was lifted
off this dog. She's trotting out like was she
fast? No. But I could just tell she was like
her tail wagged a little bit, went out, immediately
found it, picked it up, trotted back super happy.
And I feel like it's like the same. I feel like
they feel it from us. Like it'd be like you walking
in the room and I told you to like to go like.
clean something and I'm like watching you do
it and you turn around you're like why the fuck
are you watching me like that am I doing it wrong
we do to them yeah and I think right yeah they
read that but I think that sometimes we're trying
too hard like maybe she right Maybe to her, you
just calmly saying, good girl, that was really
nice. Maybe that's more reinforcing to her than
you going, yes, and whipping out the cookies
and putting her into a frenzy. Exactly. Maybe
she doesn't find that as reinforcing. You just
calmly saying to her, wow, ever. That was super.
That was really good. Right. Like, cause we got
caught up in our head that this is what dogs
find reinforcing. But again, all dogs are not
the same. Like I've had, I had a student once
I would, it was the most fascinating thing I've
ever seen. And so. um same thing she had a dog
like it was just worry worry worry worry worry
right she's very much like us very you know like
high energy so she would do something with the
dog and she'd go yes great girl and the dog would
go oh god oh god oh god So sends me the videos,
right? I go, all right. I go, I want you to praise
her in silence. What do you mean in silence?
In silence. Well, what do I do? And then people
think they have to do like cartwheels and stuff.
I go, no. Act exactly the same way as you would
when you're talking. Just say the words in your
head. Don't talk. Don't do anything different.
Just don't talk. Night and freaking day. Unbelievable
difference. Immediate. immediate not like after
a few sessions like immediate yeah like so happy
so relaxed so responded completely different
so this whole time she thinks she's reinforcing
the dog she's actually doing something the dog
finds averse like not necessarily averse but
uncomfortable yeah and she does something completely
toned down and the dog's like oh I love this
you're and the dog read that as praise so I do
that a fair amount now because I feel like people
try so hard and then that comes across as pitchy
and pressure yeah no do it in silence and for
a fair number of dogs I shouldn't say fair like
quite a large number of dogs That makes a very
significant difference. Yeah. And that's what
I'm seeing in Ever too. Cause I'm like, I used
to be like, yes, you know, bounce, blah, blah,
blah. And like, she'd get high. She would like
react to it, but. I don't know. Like now that
I'm like doing this, like that was so good. What
a good girl. And I bend down and I put my hands
on her. She gets all gooey and loves that. Like
I can just tell like she loves it, like loves
it, loves it, loves it. And then like, I'm like,
ready, buddy, let's go set up. And she's like,
okay, I'm ready. again I don't know if this is
gonna hold up but I'm definitely trying it because
I'm feeling like she likes that so much better
she's finding like relief in it she's finding
that to be that communication of like oh everything's
good I'm on I'm doing okay she just is feeling
so much better by that so well it may just take
some time because you're changing the picture
right like and But you're so she's like, oh,
we go in the ring and it's like this. And now
you're changing it. So sometimes, depending on
the dogs, if they're literal, they'll get a little
confused. Like, wait, I'm not sure what's happening
here. Like, it's different. Doesn't mean it's
not going to work down the road. it may not work
right away. Or maybe you'll see, maybe it will,
like who knows, right? But because I do see like
a lot of times with people, they try something
and then it doesn't work right away. And they're
like, it didn't work. Like I had this great,
I told her, I really wish she would write a blog
about it. One of my students. It's actually the
same student I just talked about with this dog
that was really nervous. And anyway, she had
recently shown me a recent video of her at a
trial. And I was like, holy, I like it was stunning
the difference in the dog. Right. And I said,
well, what did you do that was different? Well,
a she did a whole list of things like it. You
know, I was thinking like, oh, she's going to
tell me I did X thing. Oh, no, no. It was a long
list of things. And some of them she started
like a year. She had been working on for over
a year. Right. So all these things together worked
profoundly, but it wasn't a quick fix, right?
And I was like, this is such a good lesson that
A, she's coming at it from a bunch of different
angles. B, she's being creative and thinking
outside the box. C, she's taking things and not
just giving up on them. She's like, nope, I'm
going to slowly, carefully work on this over
a long period of time. um, you know, to see if
I can change the impact. And, um, so it was just
like such a good email. Like the whole thing,
I was like, this is like, this is dog training
in a nutshell, right? Like where you have to
come at it from a bunch of different ways. You
have to be willing to change. You have to be
willing to try all these different things and
try them. over a long period of time and not
just throw it out the window right away. Cause
it didn't work. Right. Right. Yeah. Well that,
you know, and that's my thing. Like, like even
this weekend, like tomorrow, like I'm going,
uh, what is today? Where are we? Friday? Yeah.
Tomorrow I'm trialing. So it's like. I don't
even, I don't care about anything else. Like
I'm going to like, I want to work through some
of this. Like it's a, I just trialed Everlast
weekend in a three -day trial. And I'm going
to use this day as just, I want to work through
some of this stuff. I want to see if I can like,
see if I can help her in the ring with this new
thing I'm doing. And I'm fine with whatever happens.
Like I'm totally fine with it. So I'm, and I'm
willing to take time with that. Like I'm willing
to see, like if it doesn't work, if it. if it
didn't didn't hold up I mean literally I've only
been doing it for for this week since I've been
back yeah I'm gonna keep going in the next trial
and do the same thing like I am seeing it in
training like I'm seeing it definitely work in
training um so I gotta give it time for sure
definitely yeah and you know I so god no I think
there's so much here and it's all just really
important like and I just wrote a blog on it
too because you know every I think so many people
struggle with this with like expectations that
we put on ourselves that we put on ourselves
that stuff we see on social media stuff like
people say you know this um and then just you
know different breeds like I I told this story
in the blog like so my first uh lab that I competed
with was a breed lab right and um so I knew I
knew nothing and so I was teaching this dog a
drop on recall right and like I'm in class this
is decades ago and they're like why are you unhappy
with that drop I'm like because I want him to
drop like that border collie okay physically
a clunky lab it cannot drop like a border collie
like border collies are bred to just be standing
and just go flip down to the ground yeah and
they laughed at me and which you know maybe wasn't
the nice thing but and they were like what like
you basically like you knucklehead like it doesn't
work like that you have a breed lab right so
Like every dog, every breed is not going to be
able to work like running fast, doing this, you
know, I mean, picking the dumbbell up, flipping
around and flying back. Like, you know, and so
it's certain breeds and it's certain personalities,
which is not to make it an excuse like, oh, well,
my dog can't do that. It doesn't mean we shouldn't
keep trying. Right. But at the same time, you
know, we may have to look at this dog that's
in front of us in this moment and be like, this
is how this dog works when they're working to
the best of their ability. Right. And that's
not a reflection of us or our training. or the
dog in a negative way, like that they're not
trying, you know, because, you know, people,
one or two people have said, well, he's, Zessie's
not putting enough effort in, you know, and I
think it's the opposite. I'm like, dude, just
freaking relax. Would you just relax already?
Like, right. He's trying too hard. He's putting
too much, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, so. And it's
a never ending process. It's a never ending process.
It isn't, you know, but I think this was a great
conversation to have because and it was funny
because literally I was driving like when I got
home and then I don't even know when you posted
that post about Zesty. I was like, oh, my God,
like that is freaking crazy because that was
like like the conclusion I came to. driving home
from Syracuse yeah well we started talking about
it before the podcast just you and me talking
and then we're like wait we should be recording
this because this is like um yeah needs to be
yeah and it's something that I think you know
so unless you have that you know like Zaina because
she doesn't care about the environment she doesn't
care about the judge and she doesn't care if
she's wrong so that brings it with it its own
set of challenges but like that's why she looks
so happy like we do all these distraction rings
um distraction things sorry these super hard
challenges right and we set it up and we're all
like oh this is hard and then i get zaina out
and everybody almost simultaneously before i
even start says the same thing she's not gonna
care and we put and she does not care when iota
like she thinks it's hilarious she's like yeah
yeah yeah you stupid humans like you can't mess
me up like i know what to do all the other dogs
are like oh okay can't you know can't look can't
do that or oh no she's just like oh this is hilarious
like oh look you guys put that in the pile you
think you're so clever right because she doesn't
fucking care she doesn't care she doesn't and
there's dogs like that there are some dogs like
that and there are some dogs that are just happy
-go -lucky that may and maybe they do care but
not like it doesn't make them kind of flat right
they're just like okay like right that's who
they are you know and um I mean I've seen dogs
that you know where I'm like that trainer and
I don't mean this in a negative way but like
doesn't do a lot of motivational stuff just like
train's pretty basic and the happy dog's like
oh this is fun in the ring and there's a party
that like wants to pull your hair out right but
it's it's the personality it is it's who that
dog is right it is yeah it is and i really think
i mean i think like the dog like those the dog
i mean we've talked about this too like dogs
those independent dogs that really don't give
a shit. Like, those are the dogs that, like,
even in your pet life don't give a shit, Zaina.
I mean, you know what I mean? Like, those are
the dogs that may also, like, they don't. they
don't care enough to really be precise all the
time. You know what I mean? Like that comes with
those kinds of dogs. Like you've talked about
that. Like the dog is animated. She's happy.
She's fast. But there's times where she's just
like, eh, good enough. You know what I mean?
I mean, they just said it yesterday in training,
right? My training, my one training partner,
she's like, she looks at me like, cause we were
doing all this hard stuff. And Zaina's like,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. happy as
a clam. Right. And she looks at me and she goes,
it really is a shame. That's all she said. Cause
she knows. Right. And I know because what she
meant is it's such a shame that she doesn't really
care. Yeah. Or, or like she'll care for like
95 % of the class. And then she'll just be like,
Oh, what's over there. And, or, you know, whatever.
And she's like, because she would be. Like she
would be unbeatable if she even cared like a
little bit. She would be unbeatable. Right. She
was freaking amazing because she's like come
around to being pretty darn good. Like I'm not
trying to constantly throw shade on her. She's
been working unbelievably well. Right. She has.
But it's just like hilarious. Like and I said
to her, I said, you know what? A couple of years
ago, I said I accepted who she is. I said, and
I'm glad I have because it's made our relationship
so much better. I don't get frustrated. Well,
that's going to be the same with you and Zesty.
It's the same thing. I don't get upset with her
anymore because like this is who she is. And
for who she is, she is giving me her best effort
and then some. Because quite frankly, leave it
up to her. She'd be doing everything with artistic
interpretation. Like, I think this exercise would
be better if I did it this way. Don't you agree?
And she would look out at the audience waiting
for them to applaud for her, right? But I, so
she's working beyond her natural ability in my
mind, right? Just like at some point in Zeal's
career, I accepted who he was, right? And that's
where I'm coming around with Zesty, where I'm
like, this is who he is, right? And just because
in life, like when I hike him, he's a raving
lunatic. And I'm like, can he be like that? Right.
This is who he is. And this is how he works.
And this is, he's giving me the very best he
can. And I think more really, I have to be honest.
I get more frustrated with myself, not with the
dog. I feel like I'm failing, like I'm doing
something wrong. Like I'm not a good enough trainer.
Like there's something wrong with me that I can't
figure it out, that I can't make this dog faster,
that I can't make this dog quote unquote happier,
more relaxed, that I can't achieve that end picture.
So really at the end of the day, it's all me.
It's me being upset with me. for not being able
to achieve what I want to achieve when really
I should just be like, I am doing the best I
can and he's doing the best he can. And that's
just what it is. Yeah, that's exactly. That's,
you know, and I think when we can kind of get
our mind shifted in that direction, I think that
it's going to. just get better. I do. I really
do. And that takes the pressure off, you know?
So maybe that's just how the dog's going to work
from here on out. And they work successfully
like that. You know? I mean, look what Zesty's
accomplished. I mean, that's crazy. The freaking
dog is like unbelievable. So... that has to be
taken into account you know what I mean it's
not like you have a dog that looks like sometimes
he's not as fast and flashy or confident looking
in the ring but he's doing his job to like the
standard of winning national freaking tournaments
like that says a lot you know what I mean No,
I know. And I don't like I don't want people
to think like, oh, it's like you're never happy.
Like the people that really, really know me get
it. It's not that I'm not happy with what he's
accomplished or what he's done or what he's doing
or any of that. It's that thing of like where
I want my end goal is that I want a dog in the
ring. that's happy and that looks happy and relaxed
and confident. But I think that what I'm learning
is that like, it doesn't even mean he's not confident.
You know what I'm saying? Like it just means
like he's being thoughtful or careful or whatever.
So it's just me being so obsessed with, Oh God,
the poor dog. Oh God, I don't want him to be
happy. I don't unhappy. Like I love this dog
so much. Like, sometimes I can't even talk about
how much I love him because I start to cry. I
get like. That's how I get. No. As a person.
See, this is what I'm saying. As a person. Like,
he. Just everything about this dog. Forget what
he does in the ring. Like, I love him. He loves
me. Like, it's ridiculous. Right? Yeah. And I
wouldn't. trade him for anything under the sun
and I'm happy with him with how he works no matter
what like it's it's I because of that I don't
and I went through the same thing with Zaina
there was a long period where she was where she
looked miserable in the ring and she was and
she was worried and stressed and like I had to
figure a lot of stuff out with her and I hated
that just as much because I love them And I don't
want them to be unhappy in the rain, you know?
But I think what I'm realizing is that what I'm
interpreting as unhappy is not necessarily unhappy.
Right. Right. I agree. I agree. Because I think,
you know, I think that... When you talked about
that time you were in the store with the whole
tug thing and the arousal, I think that's a thing.
Like, what arousal state do they need to be working
in to be optimal? You know what I mean? That
could be different for every dog. Like, Ever
looks like she's slinking around, but a lot of
that just could be where she's at with her operating
arousal state to be. Effectively and efficiently
working. Does it look great? No. Is it her optimal?
I don't know. Could we make it better? Maybe.
But I have to be okay with. Some of what I'm.
I don't know. That's what my point is. She's
doing the best she can. Exactly. For who she
is. At that moment in time. Right. And again,
it's that whole thing where you're like, but
oh, my God, like I do like because I know how
you train. You do so much motivation, so much
confidence building for years. And then we get
that in the ring and then we feel like we're
failing again. Like they're like, what are we
doing wrong? You know, and like maybe part of
it is maybe we're trying too hard. You know,
maybe we shouldn't be doing that much drive building
per se. Because I will say, like, sometimes with
Ever, when she gets high, she sounds a little
frantic to me. Do you know what I'm saying? Like,
frantic. Not happy high, but, like, anxious high.
With Zesty, sometimes he'll tug with aggression.
And sometimes I'm like, come on, buddy, tug.
Like, I'm coercing him into tugging. And then
I stopped doing that. I was like, all right,
you know what? You don't want to tug? Fine, we're
not going to tug. Like, we're not going to tug.
I'll use food. You like food. You work great
for food. I'll use food. You know, and then sometimes
he's like, toy. And he tugs like a lunatic. So
I have to let him make that choice, right? I
have to stop trying to be like, I want you to
tug and I want you to tug more because I want
more arousal because I want you to work faster.
Well, now I'm not being a good teammate. I'm
not listening. He's saying for whatever reason
at that moment on that day, doing whatever I'm
doing with him, that he doesn't want to tug.
Right. Right. Yeah. So that, you know, And finally,
I'm like, OK, like, well, I have in the past
bailed on that and did food, but it would always
bother me because there's this part of me that's
like you're failing because you haven't made
his tug drive strong enough or you're bailing
and just, you know, caving and giving him food
or whatever. But I've been watching it more and
more carefully. And it's just like I think sometimes
he's like, no, I can't do my work. When I get
in that state. In that arousal state, you know,
or for whatever reason, he's like, I would rather
have food as a reinforcer. Right. At right now
than that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that,
that's something I'm doing with Stormy too, because
she is, that dog is high arousal. She lives in
high arousal 24 seven. And I have to watch, I
got to watch the, like she wants the toy. Like
that is her biggest, that's her ultimate reinforcer.
But I can't, I can't use that reinforcer all
the time because she can't think and she makes
mistakes when she's like that. So I use the food
because the food actually is a lower, it causes
her to come down actually. The reinforcer keeps
her in a more manageable arousal state. so there's
something to be said with that for sure yeah
good well I'm glad we decided to record now because
I think it's really good like and good for me
it's good for me to just like hash that out right
like which is why we started talking about it
before we started recording because like yeah
we need to talk things through and hash things
out and um constantly work on you know having
a better understanding of our dogs and what we're
trying to do recognize like what like i always
have to recognize my weaknesses right like or
um my tendencies and rein them in right yeah
or adjust them or modify them yeah or be able
to look at it from a different angle you know
like that's a big one that's and that was my
whole thing like driving home I'm just like I
have to be look I gotta look at this from every
other side like what how what is going on what
you know like that's a big thing like and that's
that's just figuring out training stuff it's
never ending never ending never ending and then
you get another dog and you think like I've so
many different dogs surely by now I have the
answer and then the next dog is completely different
and then you have a whole nother different set
of challenges yeah and you're back to square
one yeah yeah yeah that's true that's why I don't
know how as a trainer you could ever have a big
ego because I sure as heck don't because I don't
either oh my god is keep like knocking me down
like anything like you know no you don't know
and it's hard like there's you know like you're
it can get like where you're just feeling like
oh my god what what is wrong with me as a dog
trainer like you can easily go there but you
know that's just why i love it because we're
we're trying you know because we really care
about our dogs like emotional state and their
head space and all that we're just we're not
just like i don't care what you look like or
how you do it just do it and get it done right
like we care and sometimes maybe we care a little
bit too much we go over the cliff and then we
have to like rein ourselves back in and it's
a different process but anyway um all right this
was good thanks everybody thanks again everybody
that comes up and mentions that they listen to
the podcast yeah that yeah and they tell us like
you know they're telling other people about it
um so i wanted to say thank you to everybody
for that um we really appreciate it um and that's
it for today so Yeah. Awesome. Thanks everybody.
Bye. Bye.