Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey on ‘She Said,’ the power of journalism, and the oddity of becoming the subject

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Current and this is next question. A deluge of allegations ever more serious, coordinated campaign of intimidation. Eighty other women have made allegations of misconduct against him. His employment was terminated effective immediately. Five years ago. On October, The New York Times published an article written by Jody Canter and Megan Tuohey. The headline read, Harvey Weinstein paid off sexual harassment accusers for decades, fueled by the Hollywood stars in the story. Jody and Megan's reporting made the me too movement, started by Toronto Burke back in two thousand six, go viral. Thousands of women are using two words on social media to identify themselves as survivors of sexual harassment and assault. Today it's hashtag me too. Millions of me two's out there on social media, leading to the downfall of so many power full man Matt Loward, Charlie Rose, chef Mario Batali, comedian Louis c k, actor Kevin Spacey. Harvey Weinstein convicted on two counts of sexual assault. The met movement has hit the banking world. More than one and fifty women accused. Larry Nasser, a former doctor for USA gymnastics of sexual abuse at the doors of the Supreme Court, where you can see protesters have gathered their demanding that their voices be heard. Women in India, em Paris, in the Middleast are saying enough is enough. In Jodi Cantor and Megan Twoey won the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in twenty nineteen. They published a book called She Said that took readers behind the scenes of that incredible investigation. And now the journalists and their work are the subject of a feature film of the same name, She said, stars Carrie Mulligan as Megan Tuey and Zoe Kazan as Jodi Canter. What is it exactly that we're looking at here? We're looking at extreme sexual harassment in the workplace. These young women walked into what they all had reason to believe, we're business meetings with a producer and employer. They were hopeful, they were expecting a serious conversation about their work or a possible project. Instead, they say he met them with threats and sexual demands. They claim assault and rape. If that can happen to Hollywood actresses, who else is it happening to today? I'm in conversation with Jody and Megan about the movie, the power of journalism, and the lasting impact of Me Too. First off, is it bizarre for you? I mean, this is a new situation. You all have interviewed other people your entire careers with. She said, You've started being on the other side of the table. Have you gotten used to being the subject instead of the reporter? No, we're totally flabbergasted. I mean we started out, we started out investigating a Hollywood producer. So even with this movie coming out, and even with you know, ads everywhere and people asking us about it, we're still honestly a little confused about how likenesses of ourselves ended up on the big screen. I'm sure. I mean, Megan, is it freaky for you? Are you still getting used to it? Oh? Absolutely? I mean we in this process began as they were making the film and Zoe and Zoe Kazan and Carrie Mulligan spent time with Me and Jody as they were preparing to play us. They asked us questions, They observed us all the things that we're accustomed to doing as reporters, you know, carefully observing our sources and figuring out what information to extract in our telling of stories and our articles, and so to watch them have conducted that research on us and to now see that expressed on the big screen is certainly surreal. But we're also really impressed with the care that they took. Well, let's talk about that. I mean, did they follow you around at the times? Did they follow you around at home? I mean, what was that? Like, Jody, you had Zoe obviously who played played you in the movie. Um, did she spend time with you at home and at work? Absolutely? But the blueprint was really our book, you know, as as you know, after the Weinstein investigation and after me too blew up globally, we felt like the story did not just belong to us and belonged to everybody, and we wrote our book to take people behind the scenes into the process. You know, remember that we we we didn't know if we would get the story, and we didn't know if anyone would care. And you know, Weinstein turns out to have been more manipulative then we knew at the time. And and also we really wanted to highlight our sources. I mean, in the book, we wanted to show that this was not just Hollywood actresses. This was a series of women, including some who were not famous at all, who made a brave series of decisions to help us and had extraordinary impact as a result. So the book I think was kind of the blueprint for the film. And then the filmmakers and the actors did spend some time with us. They you know, had a million zillion questions for us, but we had questions for them too, because we're reporters and we want to know how things work, and and you know what we were getting into. So I think it was sort of a mutual question asking process. I remember reading I think Megan that Carrie Mulligan would ask you how you felt at certain junctures when you were covering this story, when a source came through, when Harvey's lawyer was kind of talking to you, and and she really tried to incorporate, I think, as did Zoe Jodie, kind of the emotional experience for you all as reporters, the frustration, the jubilation when somebody would come forward, Um, tell me about that, and watching her mimic you on the big screen, so you're you know, you're absolutely right. I mean, Carrie, you know when she was Zoe lives here in Brooklyn, and so she and Jodi were able to kind of connect and start spending time together. For when I when Carrie first got the part, she was living in England, and so we would we first connected over zoom, and then when she relocated to New York for filming, she actually moved into our neighborhood in Park Slope with her family, and so over a course of some weeks we spent time together in person, and we had play dates with our children, and which I think she was observing, you know, not just what I was like professionally, but also what I was like in my home life with my husband, with my daughter, because as you know, this movie also depicts Jody and I in our private lives, which is a huge leap for us and somefow we were also I think made us feel a little bit vulnerable. Well, how how did you say? Why did you say yes to that? And be how did you feel seeing that portrayed? First of all, obviously you have rock star husbands who are so supportive of you all professionally, but it did show some intimate stuff about your home life, and MegaNet talked about some postpartum depression issues that you were having. I mean, was that a tough decision for for you to open your lives up in that way? I mean I would say that it was there. Yes, it was a little bit. I think we did feel vulnerable, as I was saying, but we also felt like this movie was an opportunity to do something I think that's pretty rare in movies, which is to depict the lives of working women. And you know, we aren't just living at in the newsroom. We aren't just in many ways we are living our stories, but we do, especially in my case, I had a newborn when I first started this investigation. It was a story I started right when we came back from Man when I came back from maternity leave. Jody had two daughters, including a you know, a very young toddler at the time, and so I think that it would have been incomplete story if you didn't show, uh, some of the struggles that come with that, but also some of the real satisfaction that comes from doing work that we think can hopefully impact our daughters. And so I think that while we felt vulnerable in opening ourselves up that way to be depicted on the screen and in our private lives. I think that there's a big payoff, and I think that a lot of women are going to see themselves reflected back in this movie, no matter what their line of work. And also it's a film about the truth. I mean, it really is, and like beyond you know, any vanity or vulnerability about you know, I look the sway and screen or I like that wind screen. The main thing that they captured that's so so so important is the sincerity of the journalism and the sources. It's such a gift to see a depiction of journalism as we try to practice it. I mean, there are so many representations of journalists in which you know, you've seen this, Katie, like we're shown to be manipulative or doing it for the wrong reasons. I think of the Harry Potter box and you know, read a Skeeter. The journalist character is like the lowest of the low. And I always think this is the book we give to kids who read, kids who love to read. We're telling them that, like, a journalist is a terrible, terrible person. And I think that, you know, the biggest compliment the filmmakers paid not just to Magan and I, but you know, to the New York Times and journalists all over the world. Is to show that, you know, it's non glamorous. It's really hard. Um, you're asking people to take really big risks. You're asking questions that may seem inappropriate. It's not a nine to five job. You are sort of called in the middle of the night. You don't know what you're gonna find. There's no guarantee. But the truth is really powerful and these stories matter. I mean for a lot of these women. You know, they like for a lot of these women, these were stories they tried to leave in the past. These were they like they were like really like this personal thing that happened to me years ago, Like it really has significance. And I think the movie says, yes, yes it has. It has significance. It really matters to people. There's a powerful moment in the film, and I'm paraphrasing, but it's sort of a bit of a eureka journalistic moment for the two of you when you realize that if the women come together, it will be much easier for them to tell their stories. In other words, sort of they're being power in numbers. How do you feel about it now? I feel like it dictated a certain direction my life took that. I just felt that it was this huge era of judgment that sort of marked me and all my decisions. And I felt such shame that I let him do that. Did you think that he had done the same to other girls? I thought that he must have tried it, but that they dolls, they do said no. It was like he took my voice that day, just when I was about to start finding it. And I do think that the movie does an extraordinary job of showing the damage that Harvey Weinstein did to so many young women. Can you talk about that and at Megan and how you feel that was portrayed and why that was so important to you? Yeah, absolutely, I think you know, as Jodi pointed out, we really I mean, it was a bit of a leap for us to allow you to turn over this investigation two filmmakers, and even in a lot of the movies that have been made about journalism, you may get to know the journalists, but you don't necessarily get to know the sources. And so that was something that we really hoped would be part of this film and it is. I think that's one of the things that's most remarkable is that for I think for a lot of people, they associate the Weinstein story with all of these famous actresses who came forward, and this movie really shines light on some of the more regular women, the women who had worked for him as assistants or as junior ecuatives in his company. They went to work for him because, like so many women starting out at like twenty one or twenty two or twenty four, they wanted to break into this industry. They wanted to They thought that it was going to be, you know, a window into UM, a world in which they could succeed behind the scenes as producers, UM in other roles. And uh, instead they were you know, instead, they experienced attacks and harassment and abuse. And to see in this movie the toll that that has taken on their lives so many years later, I mean, it wrote them out of the industry. They basically and you know, one of the women, Zelda Perkins, who was a source in this story UM told who who had been silenced by Weinstein. There's a wonderful scene, true to life scene where she's meeting with Jody and she says, you know, and she left that she basically went off to Guatemala after this happened. Um. She she literally like like fled um, not just the industry, but the country. And so I think you can see. I think that film does a really really great job of capturing the toll that this takes, not just in the moment, but for decades. I think, you know, just even doing research for my book and talking to some of the people who had been victimized by Matt, I was astounded by the trauma that still exists today, the residual trauma, and how much it has shaped their lives, um going forward. And it was very true obviously with all the victims. And in fact, the movie starts with a young Laura Madden, you know, running and and then you revisit her and I don't know, I just think it's so powerful because I think so often this kind of behavior has been dismissed like oh, you know, get over it. And I think it's so important to show the lifelong ramifications of this exactly. People think the Weinstein stories about sex, and of course it's about sexual misconduct, but it's really about work, you know, these these women. What unites all of these women with Weinstein stories is that whether they were actresses or assistants. You know, they wanted opportunity, they wanted a piece of the action, and Weinstein used that to make them vulnerable. You know, this wasn't like a producer meeting women in a bar. It was always a work situation. I've a script, I want to show. You, come up to my room to watch the dailies. And so for a lot of those women, part of the loss is the career loss, you know, the feeling like I can't get those years back, Like that's like I'm forty something, fifty something years old now, and it's it's you know, it's never going to happen for me in the same way that it could have. But also the shame I was going to say, this shame that that continues to haunt them as as adults. Yeah, and you know, and one of the things I think this film finally lets us confront something that was always a little uncomfortable in our relationship with them, which is that we've had such a supportive workplace and in the film you see these editors like gently pushing us forward and kind of you know, pushing us to do better and enough for you standing up protecting us men, but also like standing up for us, but kind of also thrusting us forward. You know, Weinstein always wanted to talk to Dean McKay, big boss man to man, and he says, talk to my reporters. You know. So you've got this sort of like a series of great bosses um flaming us, and I think in the film they become a kind of implicit contrast to Weinstein after the break? Is that really how it happened? Jody and Megan separate fiction from fact in the movie version of their book. How did you feel when you first saw the movie? Did you think, oh, they really captured the essence of the story of the victims of us who we are? Or did you was there any part of you that was a little I think we're really comfortable with this film as a work of art that's based on real events. You know, it's kind of like there are three categories in the film. There really are some scenes that are so true to life. I mean, dialogue that we recorded in these interviews, you know, got a transcript of used for the book, and then the screenwriter, Rebecca Lanuitz used it too. Then there's a category of stuff that of course is like invented or altered or a little bit different because they're making a feature film, not a documentary, and and part of their goal is to produce something, you know, that keeps you glued, and it's really you know, has that kind of galvanizing feeling of of watching a journalistic procedural, and then you know, it's funny. There's kind of this third category that's the most interesting of all of stuff that did not actually happen in real life, but is like very true in a non literal way. Like there's the scene where Megan's character tells off a guy in the bar who's harassing the reporters, and it's it's funny if you know, Megan, because it did not happen that way in real life. But I mean it's kind of something you would do, right. I mean, it didn't happen with my boss and my reporting partner, but it has happened in the past another in other situations, So it was sort of character wise in terms of your personality, and it felt true. Yeah, And the and the book is our place to keep a really precise record, like if I mean, if people want to come into the true investigation and like really inhale the details and and know that everything they're reading is precise. Then the book is you know, we've got a place to do that you know already. Um. And so I think the movie Can, the movie can Can kind of live on a parallel track is something that's you know a little different, um, but that you know where we can we can really appreciate and celebrate. Were you consulted by the way. Did they say, hey, we're thinking about casting Zoe as you Jody and carry as you Megan? No, No, they did. I mean they did do a lot of consulting with us, and so that's something that we really appreciate it Along the way, we recognize that that didn't necessarily have to be the case. So they were while it's not a documentary, they did spend the filmmakers did spend a lot of time consulting with us because I think they wanted to get this right, to do this depiction with as much accuracy and integrity as possible, knowing that you can't make a documentary. When you heard about the actors who were going to be portraying you, were you like, oh, yeah, I can see that that works. Yeah, I mean, listen, you don't. You don't ever, you know, Jody and I didn't sort of spend you know, We've been in this business what for like twenty years, and I can't say that there's As journalists, you don't walk around ever imagining that you're going to be depicted on like a movie, right, You're not. You're You're never kind of going about your reporting thinking like, wow, if somebody was depicting me on the big screen, who would it be. So I don't think that we had spent a ton of time, um, contemplating who those people might be. But when they came to us with the casting decisions that we made that they had made, we were thrilled, not only because these two actresses are so accomplished, but they also have like a really special friendship. So they they've worked together, yes, yes, yeah, they have. They they are very close. Like they came in with a pre existing partnership and love for each other that I think actually you can see on the screen. So for Jody and I, that was also something that seemed like, ah ha, like what what a great what what a great fit for this, you know, to play our partnership. Having said that, you know, you guys were thrown together really to do this this reporting and kind of put together as a team. How well did their relationship on screen reflect your relationship in real life. There is a very funny scene when you're at the door and you say that that Jody needs to kind of take the lead on when someone answers the door, and anyway, you make a joke about her being short, less intimidating. I think, yes, less intimidating. You know, it's funny. I mean, Katie, it's such a good question because I actually think that might be like kind of the wildest thing about the whole movie for me, because like I mean, use the sister analogy, like we feel we've kind of become sisters through this experience, but it is also like a marriage, and you know, and it's a real marriage, like we like friends warned me a couple of years ago that a lot of these work partnerships become very performative or they break up, you know, and there's like this outward you know, there's this outward partnership that other people see, but like the core you know, is hollow or rotten in some way. And we've made a decision that we did not want to be like that. So this is like a very real relationship where I mean, even when there's not some crazy movie thing going on, we're talking to each other about our reporting, you know, our own lives. We sit facing one another room. I can't really imagine making like an important life decision without talking to you blocks away from each other. Yeah, and I you know, I feel like I guess I do really feel like we're on an intellectual and personal journey together. And also that because I mean, listen, we had no idea that this story was going to have any impact, and so ever since, you know, this movie is only the latest example of us being thrown into some sort of situation where we were like, okay, like how like how are we going to make good decisions here? How are we going to handle this? And it's so nice that you have each other to sounding boards and to check your judgment and your guts, to have sort of a sister type person to really talk things through with, right, Yeah, I mean, it's just it's just it's yeah, And so I think for that, I think for that to be captured on screen is really special. Obviously, it feels like when you're in it, you know, and experiencing like the rainbow of colors, you know, and emotions um involved in your own relationship with the person. It feels a little different it I think what you know, a critical massive people have seen the movie early, and one of the biggest responses we're getting is just what a pleasure it is to see this kind of female collaboration on film. You know, we're not movie people, but even as audience members, you know, we were searching our minds for like other films that are led by two female partners and two professional women who are work collaborators and who are there primarily because of their brains, and who are both like kind of agents, you know, who are like both driving the action, and it is incredibly rare. So you know, I just feel so lucky that we get to share that part of our relationship with people, and I think people are going to really identify with it because it's so common in the real world, even if even if Hollywood is a little behind and representing it. When we come back the power of journalism and the comfort of the newsroom, this movie really focused on not only the power of journalism, but the excitement of journalism, the mission of journalism, and this is a tough time for journalists. As you know, distrust in the media I think is at an all time high. Uh. And do you hope that this will encourage young people? I feel like I'm ninety whenever I say young people, but young people to go into journalism. And do you think that it will restore some amount of faith in the institution. This is the critically important institution of journalism, even though that has a broad definition these days. Absolutely, I mean I don't think that this I think this movie is coming out in some ways at the perfect time. I mean in a moment in this country's evolution where you've got these claims of fake news and such polarization and what can sometimes feel like a breakdown of our basic understanding of the facts. I think too, to see a movie that really depicts, um, step by step, what it takes to actually report out a story with accuracy and with integrity, and all of the challenges that we have to overcome to press that published button, um and send something out to press, I think it's such an exciting moment when you they click published, you know, it's a yeah, yeah, spoiler alert. I think every I think everybody knows how this movie Yeah Um, I think that that's I feel like there's I feel like it's going to be both. I think it's going to be an entertaining public service for people to see how that process actually works and to also see the power of the truth. I mean, that's one of the reasons that we initially wanted to write our book was that it really felt like this was a story that kind of stood out, um in the fact that it that there was such consensus around there. Nobody was sort of challenging whether or not this story was accurate. I mean, there was there wasn't sort of a splintering of understanding or perceptions of whether this story was accurate. It really was a rare moment in which sort of all readers seemed to agree, Okay, they actually found the truth and they've reported it, and there's not a debate over what happened. The real debate is over what needs to happen in response. And so we really wanted to take readers behind the scenes and show them the process of executing a story like that that created such consensus. When all the president's men came out, I believe in nineteen seventy six, it inspired a whole generation of people to go into journalism whatever. I get the Kim and you don't hang up to solid did he confirm it? Actually get a bread? Do you hope, Jody? In some ways this does the same thing. I think it's already happening. I hope the movie helps. But um, Megan and I have visited a lot of campuses in the last couple of years, and we're blown away by the level of interest in journalism because I mean, this next generation like they're looking for work with meaning, They're looking for work that can have impact, and some of them are already doing it. The load that student journalists are carrying right now. You know, back in my day, student journalism was more like, you know, reporting the high school basketball scores. Now these college students are you know, they're writing about COVID policy on campus. They're writing about sexual assault, you know, to change, climate change, the front like really serious controversies embroiling their campuses, and so, I you know, I hope, I hope this makes them feel really invited a d I hope them. I want them to see The New York Times not as something you know, remote, um, an elitist, but as a place that's accessible to them. And I also, you know, maybe this is too much to ask, but I find the news room so comforting. You know, like when I walk in there, just knowing that this paper, that it has the right values of inquiry and truth, that everybody there is just so dedicated to serving our readers. Um that the places that it's like an institution that you know, even though it's not perfect, has really lived its values for a very long time. I like, given the tumult of our world right now, I find the place comforting. I can understand that I love newsrooms. I love the idea of people kind of working together, all committed to helping people understand in the world are uncovering the truth. There's something so I mean, I missed going to a newsroom all the time, not only kind of the cacophony of all the things, although now it's much more quiet because everyone has the ear buds in and they're working on their computers, but you know, just the sensibility and the teamwork and the fact that you have like minded maybe too many like minded colleagues working you know, altogether for one goal. And I think it's I don't think there's any place like it. Amen. Amen, and before we go, because I know you all have a meeting. But when it comes to the Me Too movement, and I know you all have been asked about this a lot, but what do you think the legacy of your reporting and really the entire movement is. We know that Toronto Burke really started this for young black women, uh, much earlier than it than when it became so known to the public. I guess my question is two parts. Um, do you think that black and brown women have been brought into the me too fold enough? And what do you think is the the the legacy of this movement really spearheaded by your unparalleled reporting. So let's let me ask the first question. First. Megan the issue about brown and black women, and I would even argue women of a lower socioeconomic status, you know, women who are on the factory floor, women who are uh you know, working menial jobs, domestic workers, etcetera. Yeah, listen, I think it's a really important question. And I had been doing coverage of sex crimes and sexual misconduct for years actually before the Weinstein story, and had done I worked at the Chicago Tribune and did many stories. They're looking at sex crimes in which black and Brown and women were the primarily the victims and the injustice that they've received from the criminal justice system, from these other systems that were, you know, doing very little to protect them and allowing to punish their abusers. And so it was interesting when the when when we first started the Weinstein story, and then the movie actually depicts that, I had some skepticism about actually reporting into these initially thinking that these were that this was going to be a story that was just about famous, you know, primarily like white Hollywood actresses, and I it took me. There's a scene in which, a true to life scene in which I'm actually kind of pressing Jody on that, and I'm saying, is this the best use of our resources to be Um, don't these women have voices of their own? Do they really need the help in the resources of the New York Times? And she said, listen, if this is happening to women in Hollywood, then nobody's protected if it's also happening to these amous actresses. And so I think that there's no question that there was a correlation between kind of the face of the Weinstein story and the impact that it had. But I think that what's clear as well, is that at least the journalism that's taken place at the New York Times. This was one of many stories that The Times did on sexual harassment and sexual abuse that reported into all different types of workplaces and onto the you know, onto factory floors, into the service industry, um, looking at women from all different types of backgrounds. And so I think that there's no question that at least at the New York Times, there was a real commitment to make sure that this was This obviously ended up being one story that had kind of an outsized impact and and helped kind of make this movement go viral, but it was in no way the only thing that covered. And I think we've seen and I think one of the things that's happened, especially because Toronto Burke has was the one who had actually launched me to to begin with and has become I think even more of a public figure in these last five years, is I mean, We're it's just been incredible to watch her making sure, um, constantly pushing to make sure that that that black and brown women get and receive the attention that they deserve within this broader social movement, which is you know, taking interesting twists and turns. And I think what's important to know is that five years after this movement went viral, I think it's interesting to have this movie come out that takes you back to these like first hushed phone calls when there was nothing guaranteed about our reporting, and there was, if anything, we kept hearing like nobody's going to care. Um, you can report the story. You go ahead and publish it, little ladies, and nothing's going to change. Um, you know, good luck thinking that this is going to make a difference. And so you know, boy, were they wrong? And so exactly where to me two stands five years later and where it's headed. And I mean that's something that Jody and I will continue to report on. But we also are very clear about the fact that we're reporters, were not activists, were not advocates, were not policymakers. We can't fix all of the problems of the world. We can. It's our job to just try to bring them to light as best as we can. You know, I wonder if people would have paid attention to this if it hadn't been celebrities. I mean, you've got that too, you know. In terms of the Gwyneth Paltrow's of the world, the Ashley Juts of the world, if you had talked about some of these, uh, you know, women who were suffering these indignities for years, if people would have read it, and if it would have had the impact it did. That's what one of our editors, Matt Purty, who's depicted in the film, says sometimes he's remarked a few times in the last few years that this was the first big sexual harassment story in which the women actually had more prestige and credibility than the man who was accused. But listen, I mean you asked what the legacy you know of this whole story is, and I think it's a few things. I think it's that really just a very small group of brave sources can have enormous impact worldwide, impact really from pretty much just a handful of people who were willing to work with us. I think it's the question of how it is that these experiences can be so common. And the uprising we saw in Seen was about how women all over the world who actually had very little in common, you know, economically, religiously, culturally, and yet they all had the same stories. You know, how how is it. How could how could this behavior be so universal? I think we're still grappling, you know, with what that means. But then I think the final legacy is the question of how you confront a bully. It's a really hard question. I feel like I've been, you know, struggling with that question since third grade. You know, how do you confront a bully? That there is an answer? And I feel like what I learned through this work is that you do it together. You do it together. Harvey Weinstein is not, in fact invincible, even when everybody thinks he has a big thank you to Jodie Canter and Megan Tuey. The movie She Said is in theater's beginning November eight. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adrianna Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie Kurik dot com. You can also find me at kay be Correct, on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.