40s and Free Agents: Mina Kimes’ Favorite Players in the 2025 NFL Draft

00:00:06
Speaker 1: Welcome to forties and free Agents. It is crossover week here between NFL Media and ESPN, so we've got one of their biggest stars, Mina Kaimes, joining Daniel and I. Of course, you know we're repaying the favor sending one of our biggest stars DJ to NFL Live later in the week, and I'm also here. Welcome to the show, Nina. It's good to see you.

00:00:29
Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be here. I've been listening, first of all, really enjoying this view element of your podcast. I don't know whose side to take, because you guys have that kind of married couple bickering thing going on, and I was thinking I could come on and like take a side, but I'm friends with both of you, and I really don't want to pick a side, but I.

00:00:51
Speaker 3: Do think you. Doesn't it say a lot about Greg that he tries to dress like he's in a Seattle Grungeman just to try and curry favor.

00:00:57
Speaker 1: Like that's a little DJ as always played into the network audience, not even thinking about the podcast audience out there. But I'm just trying to be.

00:01:07
Speaker 3: Close your eyes and imagine every flannel we were in high school, and then you all know exactly what Greg looks like.

00:01:12
Speaker 1: Everything old is new again. And it's not a fair fight between me and DJ on this show because this is his time of the season. Like, we're only a week out from the NFL Draft, so we're gonna really skip sort of talking about the NFL side of things, at least to the start of the show. And I thought, as we've gotten deep into this draft process, obviously DJ has been talking about these guys forever, Mina has been studying them. At this point in the process, who are the players we're most excited to talk about that you never get sick of talking about that you love watching on tape. So we're keeping it simple to start the show. We're just going to do favorite players to watch in this draft. And Mina, you are a guest, why don't you get us going? I'm curious who you go with.

00:01:54
Speaker 2: Well, this is a player that I have definitely texted DJ about, which, by the way, this is my relationship with him. Is this time of year. As soon as the NFL season ends and I start cramming these players, I just text DJ, oh my god, this guy, Oh my god, this guy, and he very graciously replies, Yes, that guy I've been watching him for months and he probably knows where I'm going with this, because this is the first one where I felt like that Kyle Hamilton like love affair watching his tape. That's John Campbell, the off ball linebacker out of Alabama. I love him. I haven't felt this way about an off ball linebacker maybe since Roquan I was trying to think of the last prospect guys where I've really felt like they had he had the tools, the physical and mental tools to become a special middle linebacker in the NFL, and I feel that way about Campbell. The athleticism is insane. I know he showed out at the combine, but it also shows up all over his tape. True sideline to sideline ability. That's the aspect that reminds me of Rokwand he's a plus pass rusher. You saw that on display you game and other games, and he can cover. I think there's still elements that need refinement. As any line line marker is a really hard position to play in the NFL. It's going to take a second in terms of, you know, the route recognition, diagnosing some of the misdirection in the backfield, that kind of thing. He can be a little bit over aggressive, but DJ I just feel like his ceiling is up there with any young linebacker scene lately.

00:03:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, two points, which I'm a huge fan of his game, as we've discussed in the past, But I always love length off the ball. Like to me, everything with the shell coverage you're gonna see like that just makes windows shrink when you can, you know, use your length and clog lanes. People think about length, Oh, as a pass rusher, you know in coverage, you know it can help. No, this is like you as a zone dropper. That's just that's a huge asset. To have to navigate around that offensively is very challenging. So I love that about him. I love the fact that the guy is an edge rusher in high school, so he has that background. So you know, as a blitzer, he's dynamic, he's very comfortable with that. But yeah, he's such a good football player that when he got to Alabama with two you know, first round edge players, they're like, we still have to figure out a way to get this guy on the field. Like that. That says a lot, not just what you see on the tape, but what you hear in his background and how impressive he was there.

00:04:15
Speaker 1: I am annoyed by mean on this, So I guess he's going to take d just DJ side because I wanted to take to Hot Camp. I only have so many hot draft takes. Not that liking to Hot Campbell as a hot draft take, but I'm with you. Like watching him track down, you know, running backs and quarterbacks. Like he told me he'd be the ideal guy that you'd want going up against the mobile quarterback to just make sure he's not getting to the edge. She reminded me a little bit of Navarro Bowman and any of the things that you look at where Okay, it's going to take him a little bit to recognize routes and things like that. We talked about this earlier. Yeah, that's true of every off ball linebacker in the entire college football landscape. So that's not going to be different for him. And this draft is so interesting because I feel like after the top four were anyone could go in the top seven or so and it wouldn't be that shocking, Like why couldn't Jah hot Cambell go that high? I feel like he could exactly crazy.

00:05:10
Speaker 3: I'm looking to see, Yeah, look at the draft, I mean, he's my ninth player, so I'm right. Yeah, if he was the fifth pick in the draft, that wouldn't that doesn't floor me. He'd be a fun he'd be a fun chess piece to work with. Now he's a little beat up, which I think if you if you draft a linebacker from Alabama like beat up is going to make his way its way into the report because that's just how physical they play in practice as well as as the conference they play in. So maybe that could ding him a little bit. He's not healthy going through the end of the process here. But gosh, his tape is really good.

00:05:45
Speaker 1: All right, DJ, you give us one of your favorite players that they you've had a chance to watch.

00:05:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we've talked about him, but Jday Barron to me has been kind of my my guy through this process of the tape is so good and he could play anywhere. But I you know, to me, just leave him as a nickel, let him, let him cover in there, let him be a forced player against the run where he does not miss tackles. Let him be a dynamic blitzer. He takes the football away. Now there's a little there's little intricacies that are a little different in his game than Cooper de Gene and then Brian Branch, but they're definitely from the same family. And I thought the league unfairly punished those two players and they slid to the second round. And I think this is an opportunity for the league to have a do over on Baron. I just love the way he plays.

00:06:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say those two players come to mind. It's not a comp with Den Witherspoon with the Seahawks per se, but in terms of thinking about like ceiling and regarding that position in the cornerbacks with maybe who can play only inside, but how much they can still impact a game. He brings that same physicality they desire for hitting the The way he closes on the ball is really special, I think. I think guys, if I was to say, what's the difference between him and a Weatherspoon, he's a little I'm a little less confident in him in man coverage. You saw Witherspoon in college had like some really good reps on the perimeter, and Barren at times I thought he gave up us a little bit too much underneath. But I really just love the way he plays. I feel like for him the question for a team and how high he goes is just going to be like do you think he can play outside? And if not, how high would you value it? Nickel? In today's NFL, I.

00:07:30
Speaker 1: Feel like you would value it almost the same as outside. Maybe maybe you would disagree, DJ or especially in this draft. And I'll keep going back to it where it's you're just looking for guys who can come in and contribute at a high level, Like that's that's a starting position. Did did GM's look at that differently? DJ?

00:07:45
Speaker 3: It has been. It has been a starting position for a long time. But they speak out of both sides of their mouth because it's in the room like it is its own position. It is a full time player in the league right now. And yet we get in the draft and every year these inside guys fall and then they end up, not all of them, some of them picking off passes and winning Super Bowls. And then you sit there and go like, maybe maybe you guys should have you know, believed your own words about the value of that position. So I don't know, it frustrates the credit out of me if you can't.

00:08:12
Speaker 1: Tell M and I like that you are trying to be the change that you want in the world. DJ putting them out podcast real.

00:08:19
Speaker 3: Quick, real quick. I got a text. This is totally off the subject, but I just thought of it. I'm going to read you this text real quick again. This is just totally uh, totally unrelate, but I think you're two of the people that would appreciate this. This is from John Spanouse for the Chargers. This is the end of his text. I should add, as a co chairman of the Future of Football Committee, we were the ones pushing the virtual line to gain measurement. I apologize for all the grief you've taken over your podcast name. So I got an official apology for move the Sticks now being an antiquated name. So I just wanted to get that out there.

00:08:51
Speaker 1: Are you Are you going to change it or you're sticking with it?

00:08:54
Speaker 3: No, No, those sticks are still there. They're backup. They're not necessarily h you know they're not, but they're those gentlemen are still going to be holding those sticks way in the periphery if if they're needed, if they're called upon, they'll be ready.

00:09:04
Speaker 1: All right. I want you guys to go more than me. I want to hear what you say on these but I will throw out one favorite player because I finally got finished with the wide receivers this week, and I don't see him on DJ's top fifty. So I am picking a bone with him, and that's Kyle Williams of Washington State. I was just watching these wide receivers one after another after another, and I really like a lot of them. I totally am with you about Matthew Golden. Why you would view him as your number one receiver after Travis Hunter. There's a lot of good receivers, but he was the first one that I looked at a little bit like Brian Thomas Junior a year ago, where I thought, just he moves different, and I understand why maybe he's not going to go in the top twenty picks, but I don't understand why he doesn't have a little more pop, because man, he is beating guys off the scrimmage so fast. His footwork and beating press for someone his size seems so incredible. He's got yack, he's got attitude. I would draft him just for the touchdown celebrations. Give me that. With Kyle Williams, like he just seems like he is going to translate, I don't get why he's not a top fifty player. So I'll start with DJ just like what what what? What gives here? Like, well, what is he missing?

00:10:12
Speaker 3: I like Kyle Williams. I like him a lot, and and the Senior Bowl was a great example what you're talking about. And you know you watch those cutups there. His releases are as good as anybody. He can separate at the top. The name that I wrote down when I watched him was he gave me like an Emmanuel Sanders vibe, like a young Emmanuel Sanders, just because of his quickness and separation and the way he runs routes. He's not going to be the most physical guy, but he's he's a winner. Like he can win at the line of scrimmage, he can win at the top of route. So I think he's gonna go. My My guess is he's going to go early. Third round. But yeah, Greg, we see guys go on that range all the time, where the next year we sitting there going why the heck didn't this guy go faster? I would love nothing more than to fight you, but I really I can't fight you on this one.

00:10:56
Speaker 2: Did he run only like he ran like a four to four right, believe it the com something I remember thinking it would be.

00:11:02
Speaker 1: He ran.

00:11:03
Speaker 3: He ran a four to four flat.

00:11:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I okay, I thought it would be faster. It was kind of like the inverse Golden where Golden ran a lot faster than I thought his tape looked to me, Kyle Williams, that's a little slower than his tape looks. I'll throw something out with him. DJ's a way on this yesterday and the NFL Live we had to do like wide receiver team fits. I threw him to the Chargers because I don't think they're going to go wide receiver early in the draft. They desperately need speed. I feel like he is that classic deep Z pardon me, who can stretch the field create some room for Lad McConkie to work underneath. What do you think of that fit?

00:11:40
Speaker 3: I like it to me. That was when I left the stadium in Houston in the playoffs, so it was like, this team has to get faster and more dynamic, and Lad McConkie's unbelievable. But imagine him with either a field stretching tight end or a vertical over the top receiver. It's just going to create more space for him. So I think that's just like a production multiplier there. Not only would a guy that can get up the top like Kyle would have his own production, but I think it would be great for a lad.

00:12:06
Speaker 1: I mean, he was playing with on an offense that was tough to watch, with a quarterback that was not putting the ball really in the right spot for him, and he was making those catches. So you talk about strength, but to me, he was good at the catchway. I'm all in on Kyle Williams. Maybe I was just just hoping for a guy that could be my guy, and I finally got to him, and I was excited about Kyle Williams. Let's hear from you mean another favorite player to watch?

00:12:31
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna skip Carsons Schwuessire. That just did a linebacker but I like him do And I'm going to do a corner who is a little bit well, I don't I think he could bear end of the first maybe being the second that's Trey Miss. Yeah, we'll miss the corner. So I guess the commonality between Campbell is I just love long arms and it is the first thing you noticed DJ when you watch train. I mean, I just the way he uses his lengths to disrupt, and also the timing of it, by the way, because sometimes guys with long arms can get caught interfering. At the college level, you really didn't see that. I thought he did a really good job of being cautious and timing it well. I also like the fact that he is I think coverage agnostic. You could play himpressed man, they played him off. I thought he was good at both. There are still elements of his game that need refinement. I think some tackling issues show up. That's like every cornerback in the draft. But he's decent against the run too, and he's got just I feel like the size that a lot of teams need for an outside corner right now.

00:13:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I had him going to the Rams bottom and it just felt like kind of a Rams Rams type player too, because he's just he's instinctive. He's been through a full process, like you've seen him. He's got a long track record. He's gone against elite players, so you've got a chance to make a pretty good evaluation on him. I go back through my notes, and you know, outside fluid smooth, the only question I had was off the LSU game because they ran away from him a little bit there, So I was like, Okay, how much like pure deep speed recovery speed does he have? And he ran four four three, So I mean, at least from a time standpoint, he cleaned that up. But I thought he had instincts from off. I thought in press like, he'll vary what he's doing. He can be patient, doesn't lunch. I think he cut out a position, but like Mina said, can use his length to his advantage there and especially at the catch point. He's aware he can poke the ball away. So literally, if if I didn't see the LSU game, I'd probably have him like in the twenties, you know, like early twenties on my list. When it's all said and done, he'll end up in the mid thirties on my final list. But I can't divorce myself from the LSU game because he is going to see he's going to get challenged vertically like that. So that was my only negative.

00:14:49
Speaker 1: I mean, he said, you like cornerbacks with long arms. At what other traits are you generally looking for? And are they all just like recreating great Seattle seahawks of the past.

00:15:02
Speaker 2: It's I think, I really like, is there something do you have, like a signature? Trait is kind of something I'm looking for in the first couple of rounds because you know, pretty much, to be honest, every cornerback in this class is somewhat flawed. There's no top five process, even like.

00:15:18
Speaker 3: Will Dirk Stingley's not walking through that door.

00:15:21
Speaker 2: Oh Hunter, Sorry, Travis Hunter.

00:15:25
Speaker 3: He's his own thing though, he's his own conversation.

00:15:28
Speaker 1: I know, But like, I also feel like doing an entire segment of favorite players in the draft, and not just at least saying Travis Hunter would be the number one overall player at least to me, just as a cornerback er, just as a receiver.

00:15:38
Speaker 2: No, I keep doing that. I'm like, well, they're no really truly special this and then go way. I forgot to mention Travis Hunter. Do they have something special? I think? And like Baron, it's the physicality to me, that's my favorite thing about him. Amos, it's the length, Hairston, it's the speed. So I'm kind of just looking for can we build up of something and then if you have a flaw, is it something that can be improved pond or are you just frankly too slender and the frame is never going to fill out to the point that was such a miss for me with Forbes a couple of years ago. And that's something I've been watching out for, you know, because I don't want to jump to the inclusion. He'll fill out, He'll get some stand you know, be able to tackle. It's like some guys never do. So I think that's it. Looking for one special trade and then if the flaw can be fixed.

00:16:20
Speaker 1: This is the last show we'll do DJ before your final prospects list come out, So any any chance I can convince you to just move Travis Huner up to one to finish it.

00:16:31
Speaker 3: It's kind of I thought you're gonna ask me if I was going to take a Mason Graham out of my top fifty. I thought that was you're gonna want there. Now you know he hates Mason Graham.

00:16:39
Speaker 2: Atta.

00:16:39
Speaker 3: I've never seen somebody despise another human being so much.

00:16:42
Speaker 2: No, Mason Graham quietly a little bit divisive with some uh some people that I've chatted with. You know, he's still my DT one, but yeah.

00:16:54
Speaker 3: Doesn't think you should be drafted. Question.

00:16:56
Speaker 1: None of this, none of this is true. I was just trying to like find little knits to pick with your rankings. But I do. I do think when you have like Babe Ruth and Shohei Otani in the draft, you might now you know, in the end, when we look back in a few years, you're gonna want him at one. So that's us my final push. Who's another one of your favorites?

00:17:14
Speaker 3: DJ I can go through a couple one of them. This is like my here's my hot scouting take or whatever. Tyler Warren, It's like he's definitely getting prospect fatigue going through this process. And so, like I talked to somebody the day and they were like, you know, they use him at quarterback and some wildcat stuff and then they move him around and use him here and use him there, but like, you know, how much is that all going to translate? And what?

00:17:39
Speaker 1: You know?

00:17:40
Speaker 3: This that and the other stripping that a lot of stuff away. I'm like, so to summarize, he's really good at football, like like that's I'm okay with that. Like yeah, and was just dominant and they had to figure out every which way possible just put the ball in his hands and make other human beings try and get him on the ground like that's I'm a fan. I think there's a little more nuanced and polish to him. And you can even see on the highlights we're showing here. If you're listening to it, just take my word for it. He can't separate like he he is so big and he's kind of a strider. So I know we didn't get a chance to run a forty you know, going through the process, and it's you know, I can't remember a year we've had this many guys that don't run. That's just the future. It's here, that's not going to happen. He would run a much faster forty time than people think. It is my prediction on him, and I talk to guys who were at live games with him and they're there that you feel his speed. You might not see it on the video when you're watching the tape, but when you get around him and see how strong his stride is and he covers ground, you feel it. I just think he's a fantastic football player and he's one of my favorites.

00:18:41
Speaker 1: I get that. I also get why some teams would be scared of I think I would be this a little bit like if you were looking for a tight end and you have this guy, Colston Loveland available who just fits. Okay, that's what we see in the NFL. That's leg and play right, that's that looks like a top ten potential tight end. And then you have this other guy who's really just this unique guy, and you have to figure it out, Like I get I get that.

00:19:05
Speaker 2: I on my pod, I didn't. It's not a player comp But I found myself talking about Deebo Samuel when I was talking about Tyler Warren, which is to say, oh, he's an absolute freak, an absolute mismatched nightmare. With the ball in his hands, he's a human monster truck, and he just has a lot of very unique, unicorny type traits. And so with the right coach, in the right situation, I think he has the ability to be one of the three best tight ends in the NFL. But I will say, and this is the thing that I don't think it's quite fatigued so much as like as I thought about it, if he ended up with the wrong team, who's just like, hey man, just stand in line of block and you know what wants to play action, I don't think he'll ever reach his potential. So I do think fit does matter a little bit with him. I don't think it's limiting. I'm not saying he's like Boom or bust per se. And because I feel like sometimes when you say fit matters, it sounds like you're denigrating the player a little bit. Yeah, yeah, certain. And he's a tight to, which is a unique position a little bit, right, So I do think the right I mean, how cool would it be a Ben Johnson got his hands on him, for example, just to throw that out there in Chicago. I don't know if that's good, but I just, you know, I just wanted to land with the right team.

00:20:14
Speaker 1: Reminds me a little of Jeremy Shackey coming out and maybe a little like Shocky, a little like Debo and and some like. He reinds me a little tasto some Hill in a way. It's like you might that first contract might be the big one because the way he plays. Who knows how how he's going to age. But that that that's fright.

00:20:31
Speaker 3: Why am I blank and helped me with the name. Why am I blanking on the Steelers tight end from like a decade ago? Heith Millerith Miller, Heith Miller. Yeah, when he I was in the Ravens draft room and Heath Miller, you know, had a back injury so he couldn't run, and we're watching him slide down the board and Ozzie Knew some really early said this guy is going to fold the Steelers, isn't he like? This guy's going to fold the Steelers? And it was like, oh my gosh, of course, and it was like he was this just a Maller brawler and he was perfect for the Steelers. Had an unbelievable run. So I do like Mina's idea there with the Bears, But selfishly, I'm like, can this league be dumb enough to let the Chargers get the hands on this guy and we can recreate the Stanford offense.

00:21:14
Speaker 1: From years always thinking about his Chargers. More to come on forties in free agents back in a minute, all right, Well, we'll fly through a couple more quickly. It did say favorite players to watch, so this is not projecting who's going to be the best pro But I haven't had a chance to talk about Jalen Milroe with DJ. And if you put him in the NFL right now, DJ, how many quarterbacks are better at running the football than Jalen Milroe. I would argue it's possible. The answer is zero. I mean, at this point in Lamar Jackson's career and Josh Allen, it's like the most efficient play in football when he runs the ball. He is one of the best runners of the ball at quarterback I've ever seen coming out of college. And you can find like the great games where he does make key throws that help them win the game. So it's not like they're not there. And I get why he's not gonna go in the top twenty picks or maybe even the first round of though they did invite him to the draft. But if that's your baseline, to me, that's such an exciting baseline that at worst, I feel like he's a better Taysom Hill. And to me, that's more exciting than any quarterback in this draft. It's more fun to watch other than cam Warden Shedur Sanders. So like, he's just one of my favorite players, and I would just I just want to be the team that's dumb enough to take a chance on him and at least find a role. Hopefully he gets the right coach. We talked about fit I don't know who you think would be the right fit or if you agree with me at all, but I think people are underrating that as a baseline, that he would be that good unless you disagree.

00:22:51
Speaker 3: That same logic got Anthony Richarson picked in the top five.

00:22:54
Speaker 1: Right, which is why it's a good like late second or third pick. I'm not saying you take him that early. I'm just saying like you could do something with him.

00:23:01
Speaker 3: He is a phenomenal runner. And we talk. We were talking because I love baseball before about baseball, and like on baseball, they have a skill like all the way up to eighty. He is an eighty runner, like he is in top of the shelf, elite, elite runner. His running trait is of this entire quarterback class. He's the only quarterback that has a singular trait that's at the very top of the ladder. So that's what I would agree with you wholehetly. He's a dynamic runner. Whereas to the point where it's like you'll get crucified if you ever talk about players switching positions. But I'm like, gosh, it is intriguing watching him. By gosh, what if he was playing running back Because he's such a talented runner, not to you know, to insult him, but the other component, the vision, the decision making, that it's so troubling and it's so below the line that it's like, how early do you make that move there? It's just been not enough evidence. He had a couple of games early in the year where you get excited about, but the more like the Oklahoma game, I can't get that out of.

00:23:57
Speaker 2: My head, might be pertinent to the I know we're talking production versus traits, but the thing I find concerning about him as a quarterback is that he's played so much quarterback, you know, right at a high level. So, and this is kind of the production versus traits, right, It's a thing that gets thrown into that discussion when you're asking can be cause I think part of the optimism for Anthony Richardson came from the fact that he had played so little, right. So when you take a guy like this who's been in a you know, top shelf program, played with the best coaches, and you're seeing some of these issues in terms of at the quarterback position, it gets you a little bit concerned about. Okay, yes, there's logic, so let's get him the building and see if we can develop him. But he's already been in some pretty damn good buildings. That said, I think with the running the thing I want to just say. And you guys are kind of hitting on this, especially when you talk about a potential position change. He is doing the nuanced things with the bona his hands that it's not just like, oh he's big and fast, right. He runs with exceptional vision. He sets up defender like I I found his runs in like entrancing. So I hear you Gregor saying he's fun to watch. I have a lot of skepticism abou whether or not you be corbying in the NFL. But you know what, it's all in where you take him. I think it's all where you take.

00:25:18
Speaker 1: It, right. I mean, uh, I know I'm dating myself here, but Pat White got taken uh in the in the second round of the draft. We've almost over corrected so much that if even if you only did look at him as a guy that could be a package player, like a Taysom Hill type of guy. To me, if I would take a plus Taysom Hill in the third round, I don't think that that's crazy at all.

00:25:36
Speaker 3: He's going to go in the second round.

00:25:39
Speaker 1: I would take a plus Taysom Hill and hope that he could have You know, he's not gonna be Malik Willis that that quick Probably of a developmental track, but you would hope maybe he gets there in a couple years, all right, I would know we've honked a lot. Why don't you guys do like one more speed round if if you want each just because I want to hear more from from you two me and why don't you go.

00:25:57
Speaker 3: For go ahead?

00:25:58
Speaker 2: I'll be quick Mari and Hampton. I since I've done defense, I'll skip Harman. I just think in a lot of drafts he would be RB one, just so complete. He's kind of good at everything. I think like he's has, you know, ideal size, He's got short area bursts topping long speed is good too. He's explosive, he can get north south and move guys. He has a really good balance. Frankly, he forces a lot of mistackles. He can even pass. But he's still got a little bit of work to do there. But I think he can be a plus pass protector in the NFL. He can catch passes. I mean, DJ like what can't this dude, I think maybe like the agility is an elite, but other than that, he just is such a complete prospect to me.

00:26:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, he just looks the part too, I mean he is. He is a big, physical guy and interesting thing when I talk to the folks, I think I told Greg about this previously, but talk to the guys that worked him out and trained him. When they do their onboarding, they do all the physical testing and this guy had a lot of touches. He carried the ball a ton, so a lot of usage. And they said when they checked him in and did the full medical work up, like he was full go, ready to go day one, Like, did not have a hangnail like he his body handled that beautifully. So he just built for it. He's built for the NFL. He can catch it, he can hit home runs, he can get you know, talk about the North South stuff. He hits, it goes like there is a legit burst to him. Now, he doesn't have elite like wiggle, you know, side to side, make you miss, but it's not He's not tight either, So he's just kind of middle of the road in that aspect of it. But I don't know what else is wrong with him. I think he's like my twelve or thirteenth player in the entire draft, and I don't I don't see any way he doesn't go in the first one.

00:27:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see what happened here. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose. I mean, I feel like picked a lot of DJ's favorite players too, guy like just where he's higher than consensus. But I'm with you. We all agree on Omriy and Hampton, we all agree on Todd Campbell. They're all They're both incredible. All right, finish it up.

00:27:55
Speaker 3: DJ got a couple different ways I could go here. I talked so much about Treyvon Henderson's past protection. It's it's been said, it's been done. It is very fun, like just entertainment. Though his pass protection real is as fun as anything in this whole draft. I've used the phrase it's like and it's like the it's like the matrix when he hits guys, because the guys that he hits, you'll see the arms go flailing and like get knocked back, like it's the sight. It's a it's aesthetically pleasing to watch him buckle guys in pass protection. But Jack Bash, I love the story. I love the kid. I love the you know, I hate the unfortunate, awful situation he was put in with his brother's passing, but the way he navigated that handled that. And then we're at the Senior Bowl and the guy catches the game winning touchdown. Like everything about this guy just screams. He's a total stud and he competes for the ball up in the air. He's just everything he does is physical and tough. The first guy rarely gets him on the ground after the catch, like he's just it's not a scouting term and it's cliche, but like the guy's just a freaking war daddy. Like he's I'm betting on him, Like he's gonna be a good player.

00:29:04
Speaker 1: Former tight end who has like the physicality of a tight end. You can see him using him a little like a tight end. Maybe not the blocking, but just that the power.

00:29:13
Speaker 3: He's Joe Juravicious on steroids. Not to make the white guy to white guy receiver comparison, but like he is like when young Joe Jerivisius in the league. He couldn't really run, but nobody could tackle him. Like he could just get open and nobody could get him on the ground. Like he's just well beyond that.

00:29:28
Speaker 2: I think I said I had him much more. People are getta be bad at this. I said he was Bobo plus on my pod jacobat which it's another white guy cop, Hey, Bob underrated, underrated, Bbo plus is actually a good player. I just think there's so many schemes, so many coaches in the f on right now who want wide receivers you can block and get yards after to catch, and are physical and reliable to catch. So I just think there's gonna be a place for him in this league.

00:29:57
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe mac Hollands. So we can cross races and I'll go mac Hollins. There is my comp Do you like that?

00:30:04
Speaker 1: I like it. I don't know. Uh yeah, I don't know where I'm taking.

00:30:08
Speaker 3: So there's there's not a pure comparison there, but yeah.

00:30:13
Speaker 1: Matt Collins Day one free agency signing by the New England pageots. All right, let's take a quick break on forties and free agents. We will be back in just a minute. Back on forties and free agents. Mina. I couldn't help but notice this post you put on Blue Sky this week. You said you've been listening to forties and free agents lately and you sent out the ideal two person podcast has one fairly upbeat normy usually the host, and one grump who loves to complain unbeatable formula. Am I the fairly upbeat Normy? Is this our formula?

00:30:59
Speaker 2: No, you're revert the m Yeah? Come on you know that Greg. You know he's the beat normy.

00:31:05
Speaker 3: You had Mason Graham playing in the CFL for crying out right? Come on?

00:31:10
Speaker 1: Did we inspire that? The first thing I thought I was like, who is she talking about? There?

00:31:14
Speaker 2: Well, apparently every podcast, because every single podcast Earth weighed in. They were like, Yeah, this is my dynamic.

00:31:20
Speaker 1: I like to think of myself as a normy DJ. Let's let's talk about something that I know you wanted to dive into a little bit about production and traits.

00:31:29
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think this draft's defined by a couple of themes, and one of them is with these edge rushers is we've got guys with all the physical traits. They're explosive, you know, Shamar Stewart kind of the poster boy for that. Then we've got the other guys who have all this production who maybe you know, lack some of those traits. The elite physical gifts, and it's well, what's better, Like these teams are having to make these decisions in the draft room, how you stack these guys and how you rank them what's better? So we put our guy Jack Andraid in research on it and had him pull you know, the way we approach was, let's look at all the guys the top pass rushers in the league, so everybody with ten plus sacks. Then let's try and work backwards to what they were in college and Mina I was hoping we were going to get the Welp, Well there you have it. It's all the trades, guys you know worked or didn't work and vice versa. And it turns out it's a completely mixed bag, which makes this debate and discussion all the more interesting.

00:32:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are examples of pass rush shirts we were just talking about who had minimal college production and went on to have great NFL careers. Daneil Hunter, right, is the poster child for this. I mean, gosh, I had forgotten the so if I remember him being raw in college, but holy smokes like he so this is last seventeen games. He had three and a half sacks in college. But so it is all over the place. There are examples of guys with little production who went on to have success for the most part, though there's more examples of guys who just didn't pan out. I would say, so it is I think still a pretty big red flag for me, and I've spent a lot of time watching and thinking about Stuart in particular. It comes down to a lot of things you got to look at. First. I'm looking at the underlying numbers, so it's not just sacks. You're looking at pressure rate, past rush wind, things like that. Numbers are getting better and better, and seeing if there's something like maybe he was getting a lot of pressure but not a lot of sacks. Stuart got a decent amount of pressure. Finishing was clearly the problem. I'm looking at positional changes like Michael pars is on here, but obviously he played off the ball, so you know, was this player given the opportunity? And then speaking of opportunity, I'm also just trying to figure out how are they used in the offense. The guy who was asked to line up inside a lot I remember we were you know, that's earily the case with some of these Actually, some of the guys here and Trebron Walker comes to mind. So you're trying to like paint as much of a picture as you can to try to understand are there any extraneous factor? Is that explain why this player didn't have the production that would merit a first round pick?

00:34:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think And sorry, Greg, I'll just jump in here real quick on that, because Georgia is a great example of this.

00:34:09
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:34:10
Speaker 3: If you look at Georgia, Trayvon Walker, Nolan Smith, Jalen Walker, mikel Williams, so some in the past and some in the present, And to me, they're easier for me to explain when I look at Trayvon Walker lined up in tid alignments and not being loosened up to be able to use his gifts, you know, to rush the quarterback. When I look at a team that he played on that was blowing the doors off of everybody, and they had a deep defensive line group, he didn't get quite as many opportunities. So and Nolan Smith the same way. So I was I could project what they were going to be and what they were going to do, and I felt comfortable with that. Now that being said, Trayvon Walker, if that was him and Hutchinson. That was the debate. I was Hutchinson. To me, Hutchinson had the traits as well and the production. So that's why I was a Hutchinson guy, you know, comparing those two players. But like with Stuart, Stewart is freed up. He has opened up to get those opportunities. You know. He he does have a good pressure rate. He does. He has a lot of win the battle lose the wars when you study him, and I think finishing is a is a gift and is a trait and being able to locate the quarterback on the move, being able to bend and rap and finish. He doesn't do that very well. He's very twitched up. He's very explosive. But like that's why with him I come down more on the like is iraqu side of things. And I might be, you know one, I might be in the minority on that, but I just think this guy knows how to rush the passer. It's going to take him a little while to develop some more you know power. I think it's in his body. He's got long arms, he's compact. I think he's going to be fine that way. I just to me, I had a harder time with Shamar Stewart than I did with those Georgia guys.

00:35:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you, as Iraku was on my list if we kept going on and on about my favorite players to watch in this draft, because he's got so much he can do. And you look at the guys who did test well and then did get taken pretty high, that our relative success story. Let's say, like von Walker and the Dafeo way, and you still see as pros what held them back from production in the NFL in college, and so like a way I would I would say is a good example of a guy who didn't do much in college and has been a solid enough pick, but still kind of doesn't have that complete game. And I think you could say that about Travon Walker even though he's improved at all. It makes me think, though, DJ, with less of these players testing, what positions do you think are the most important? Because there's not a lot of examples either of guys who didn't test that tested really poorly and had had great numbers as pros. There's some. Jonathan Grenard is an interesting one who didn't test well. Kyle Van Noys had a great career. There's different ways you can look at it, but what positions to you are the most important? Where you want to get that athletic.

00:36:50
Speaker 3: Testing corner first and foremost, because that's where your speed matters more than any other position. So you know, you can go off of GPS stuff from the college tape, and but there's teams that don't trust that necessarily. If a guy's not challenged, very often, he's only running as fast as the guy that he's covering, so you don't get to see him open up a ton, so they and they don't just totally trust those numbers. So the no. Forty thing I think has more of an impact on that position. But even pass rushers, like there's so few guys that ran and it has been a pretty good tell, Like there's very few exceptions, as you mentioned Greg of guys who can't run and attend split don't have that burst and explosiveness that translate because so much of winning as a pass rusher as you get off. So I was talking to teams like how are you getting around this? And one team I talked to said they have force plate jumps, you know, from the combine, and they've used that as an indicator of explosiveness and they've tried to a lot on that. Other coach I talked to said, it's never been more important for us to get out and work these guys out, to be able to feel feel it, like you know, you got you got a little pad in front of you and you guys doing to get off. You can feel his takeoff, you can feel you know when he gets in you with his hands, like what type of explosiveness they have. But it's I think it's it's more important to have people to understand the scouting side of it now because it's harder than numbers. It's a buffet. It's like I'll take I'll take a vertical jump. I'm not going to do this. I'll take one of these, I'm not going to do that.

00:38:13
Speaker 2: Along those lines, I just pulled up Shamar Stewart's relative athletic score data, which I think is so he was a nine nine nine right absolutely, oh yeah, ran super fastest straight line, vertical broad There's no agility testing. And to DJ's point about, well, what are he's seeing on tape, I kind of think that shows up and the agility is like a big part of the issue.

00:38:38
Speaker 3: To me, it's the finish.

00:38:40
Speaker 2: It's at the top of his it doesn't quite have the bend. It's funny because all of Yeah, So the other thing I think that would be concerning about me just from because I, like I said, this is almost like a mystery, right, Like, Okay, this dude is like a Donnis. What is going on? So we have to solve that mystery. So we try to solve it by getting all the contacts. I talked about, how was he used? Is it the Georgia defense, how much did he play whatever? For me? Like guys, I was like literally just like sitting there and watching his reps over and over trying to figure out, like, what's going wrong here? What am I missing? And something that jumped out to me outside of the flexibility is it also shows up against the run like he can set a really hard edge and he can win and handle you know, pretty much anyone who's in his face, but he misses tackles too. He kind of flies by here and there. And that's also concerning because when we think about production, we're talking just about sacks, but I actually think it shows up in the run game as well, and that makes me worry about whether or not this can be fixed.

00:39:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like you can see in the Missouri game he chucks Membu, who's a big, powerful guy. He'll chuck him at the point of attack like that one off play and you show it like oh gosh, like it's all in there and set the edge, do all those things. And then as Mina's talking about, I love the effort. He chases plays from the backside like crazy. You'll see him run past teammates. He runs past teammates on to the ball. It plays hard, but then you just kind of look down at your paper and you look down at your notes, and I'm like, well, I don't really have the tackles for loss. I don't really have the like impact plays. And you know, so he's a tricky one. I love how big, strong and explosively is. Combine that with how hard he plays, how competitive he is. I don't want to say that. I mean, the guy's like my twenty six or twenty seventh player, first round pick. But to me, it's just not an easy evaluation.

00:40:26
Speaker 1: Yeah there, that's gonna be the case, maybe more and more as these players skip testing. Obviously, he wanted to test because if you can test like him, you're going to But it was weird, like you said, the futures here in terms of not testing DJ this year, it's kind of great, Like Tyler Warren didn't test, as you mentioned, So that's just gonna be a mystery. Guys that you think would test well. For instance, Walter Nolan, who I'm fascinated by because to me, his twenty best plays are probably better than any defensive player in this draft other than Travis hunder And so I was hoping he would test and he would pop and it's like that would be a fun guy. But he didn't. He didn't test either. No one like no one's testing, and I don't know that's maybe that's just.

00:41:08
Speaker 3: Real quick, just real quick, if you've been paying attention Dur in the draft process, I'm just gonna this is just edge rushers, Okay, did not did not run a forty Abdul Carter, Jalen Walker, Mike Green, Donovaniza Roku, Nick Gorton, Jack Sawyer, Josiah Stewart, TJ A. J. T. Tamalau, like Oladejo from U C. L A. I mean, like freaking almost all of them, like they they just they almost like they got together and did a blood oath of like I'm not running, You're not running. None of us are running. That's just where we are.

00:41:37
Speaker 1: I feel like you should take it personally, DJ, They're just making your life harder, and they're they're doing it to avoid people like you and and Mina and I again.

00:41:46
Speaker 3: But see, I'm a I'm a company guy, and I appreciate intrigue at the draft. So now we have more intrigue. Nobody knows anything that's fair.

00:41:54
Speaker 1: Let's let's talk finally about the teams with the most draft capital in this twenty twenty five NFL draft. So we thought this would be a fun exercise for our research department to do the teams with the most draft capital. The Jaguars are number one on the list, and this is using the trade value chart, which you know isn't perfect, but there's no perfect one out there. The Jaguars are actually number one on this list. They have ten picks. The Seahawks, your Seahawks are number two. They had to trade away DK Metcalf and Gino Smith to get it, but they are number two with an extra second and third. The forty nine Ers and Bills to me were really interesting names near the top of this list. Extra picks throughout the draft for both of those teams. I'm going to start with the Jaguars because when we interviewed James Gladstone, their GM during the NFL scouting combine, I mentioned to him that he had ten picks and he said, well for now, and that was his immediate response. So they are a team I think could be trading. I assumed that they would be trading the surplus of those picks to move up and get guys that you want. Like looking at that list, mina who stands out to you the most.

00:43:02
Speaker 2: As controlling the draft?

00:43:04
Speaker 1: Well, just like that, that are interesting, especially like when I thought about the Jaguarts with that, and maybe this is a different question about this. This is a draft where teams I think are going to get favorites and maybe it'll be easy and there's just got to be a lot of trades moving up and down.

00:43:18
Speaker 2: I mean, I think New England is the most fascinating team in this entire draft to me, outside of any team that could take a quarterback and was going to pass in a quarterback is interesting obviously the top three, but also the Saints are really interesting too. We can tire with them too. But the Patriots I find fascinating because I genuinely believe no one is really sure what they're going to do it for, right depending on especially if Hunter and Carter off the board, whether or not they feel that's too high for one of the guys that they've been linked with, or they'd like to trade down. Is that even possible? I think though they have all that draft capital, there's such a mandate in this draft to make life easier for Drake may and I think they're especially I compare it on my pod to going to the grocery store hungry. It's like they didn't address their needs on offense. I liked the deg signing, but they go into this. They came into free agency with laring knees and they came out of it with laring needs. So that leads me to wonder, not just about pick four, but are they going to be aggressive to get an offensive tackle or ride receiver at any point in this draft? Because I hope so frankly for Drake Maysake.

00:44:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I gosh, I please get a left tackle. And that's the thing. It's like, I know, you know, the these tackles have holes in them, and it's like, gosh, I don't know that. I love the value of where they're picking. Ideally you slide back, get some extra picks and still get your tackle. But if they're stuck almost man, they can't run out there with what they ran out there with last year. They just can't. So that that is intrigued there with to me. The fascinating one that I think is just to huge draft is San Francisco. Yes, this team is they are venturing into a new world. They've been living in before contract and now they're getting to venture into the after contract world. And we've seen it Mina. You saw it with Seattle, Like there's just that's they already saw the damage, the carnage in the off season of who's gone and who left this team, and you can say, okay, well some of them were beat up and hadn't played as well, and yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of names that they lost a lot of guys, And so that look not saying they can't win. They still have their core group of stars. And I do like Brock and I think Rock's a perfect player for that offense, and I have no problem that they're going to pay him, and that I think that they should. But It's gonna put a lot more pressure on them to be able to hit on draft picks, and not just top top of the draft. They're gonna have to find some cheap Day three starters on.

00:45:48
Speaker 2: This team, sneakily. So many needs on this roster, right, I mean, offensive line, multiple positions, gotta start planning for a post George Kittle future at tight end, even take a receiver, entire defensive line, you go anywhere there corner is a glaring one. Yeah, safety, I mean, god dang, they could go in any direction.

00:46:12
Speaker 3: I think has to have who has to have a higher batting average than them, Like looking around the team, they have to have a high batting average in this draft.

00:46:19
Speaker 1: Miami stands out to me as another one. But you're absolutely right when you look at San Francisco's roster, it's just the defensive line is decayed so bad. It's not necessarily just worrying about the brock Party contract that's gonna come. It's the contract that didn't work out on the defensive line, like Javon Hargrave. That was an injury ultimately, but their defensive tackle group is about as thin as any group in the league. They don't have a second edge, and that's what you think about. They don't have a second linebacker necessarily. They love next to Fred Warner. They have eighty point nine million dollars in dead money this year. The Rams who have a ton too, they have fifty million. Should be looking at the forty nine Ers and Seahawks as the two highest teams in dead money this year and think of like this is go time. Can we can win this division right now? Because these other two teams are hurting And it's crazy because the forty nine Ers, they still have a lot of great players and I don't want to discount them because ultimately, if you're power ranking the best teams over the last five years, like they're probably number two to me and behind the Chiefs even though they haven't gotten that Super Bowl title. And yet this is absolutely a transition year and John Lynch has to earn that money and he's done such a great job over the years. But you do wonder if they had another bad year like this has been an arranged marriage him and Kyle Shannan for a long time. Does that do they stay together forever? He's he's almost talked about wanting to move on Mina.

00:47:39
Speaker 2: He never had to get egg on his face over the Tree Lance trade because things just worked out for them. A lot of what we're talking about is kind of the consequence of like the lack of trade, you know, draft capital over the last few years. It's actually it's weirdly like it's taken a second to hit the roster. But I actually think we are seeing it a little bit in the roster now because they haven't had a lot of picks in the past, and now they have all these holes on their team. So yeah, it's a great pick. By the way, I was thinking about them, DJ when you were talking about Baron, because you know, I was thinking about like, if they take a corner there Baron, they might like him better, but they might not need him with diambdarlonor so could be an interesting decision for them in terms of the cornerbacks. But there's a lot of directions they could go in. I have to think they're praying that one of the tackles falls to eleven.

00:48:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially once you write that check that they're going to write, and you look at all the hierarchy of needs on that team protecting the guy you're just getting ready to pay all that money too, is pretty high up the list.

00:48:44
Speaker 1: I don't think the seahawkx DM John Schneider has quite as many needs to fill, although there's plenty on offense. But I think he would be high on that list of gms who need to have a good draft to me, and he's got those extra picks, so he's got to make them count. That probably mostly on the offensive side, but it'll be interesting to see like what they do. And then I've got to give the Bills some credit just seeing them on that list. They're a great example of how to stay competitive and it felt like they were retooling their roster for a while, but they have that extra second. They were patient, that was the Stefan Diggs trade. That's why they have the extra second. And they have a bunch of extra late picks too, and they've been good on hitting some late picks. So just just shout out to the Bills I have.

00:49:26
Speaker 3: I have a lot of They're in a weird spot though, because they feel like of any team, like who's going to like make the bold move, like just go get the last piece of the puzzle. But it's like this draft, I don't know who that guy is, Like, who would they view as that piece that they would want to use some of this capital and just run up the board and go get I don't. I don't really see who that.

00:49:45
Speaker 1: Is, so I it's gonna be fascinating. One of the most unpredictable drafts I think is coming of our lifetime, very predictable. That it was fun having you on MINA. I know DJ is joining you later in the week. Is that true he's on NFL And is he joining the mena Time Show featuring Lenny as well? Or no, he is.

00:50:05
Speaker 2: He's doing my final war Room mock draft, which I've done three of them thus far. Very fun. It's like, as we speed around the first round, I give two choices to the guest. I've been doing trades. I'll see if I do trades. So far, nobody has bit by the way on my cam Ward with one, or I've offered like mega halls for that pick from the Giants. I might have to make it so enticing that I forced the issue with DJ, but we'll see. You have to listen to find out. Go check out the Meda Time Show.

00:50:34
Speaker 1: Yeah that would be great, and yeah, we are only a week away from the NFL Draft. Thanks Mina and DJ. We got we got one more of these before the big day. That's it for forties and free agents. Next time we talk to you, it will be draft week.