The Babadook

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Speaker 1: On the Beck Dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the beck del Cast. Jamie, I'd like to read you a bedtime story. Okay, who is it about? Um? It's about this guy named the Babba Duck or rather just a figure. I don't want to gender the Babba Duck, the Babba Duke. What's the fashion situation, the fashion situation, fashion icon? I see the Babba Duke a top hat, some like pretty intense makeup. Okay, amazing, You've got like a black cloak, I would say, okay, hot, hot, both physically and like you know, like energy wise, like probably sweating under there. How much is the Babba Ducks sweating under all of that at I mean, it does seem like it's kind of maybe it seems like it's not, you know, warm the whole movie. It's pretty chilly environment seems like a second layer, honestly. I mean, look, welcome to the Beck Doll Cast. My name is Shamie Loftus, huge Babba Duck fan. My name is Caitlin Dronte, another huge Babba Duck fan. Hard to really not be a fan of the Babba Duck, as we will be discussing in this exclusive unlocked Matreon episode for you. Can you believe it? I can scarcely believe it, But here we are, my goodness, nonetheless, here we are. Um, So we are unlocking this episode this week. A little, a little peer behind the curtain. That is just simply unfortunate. We were hoping to spotlight I mean we at this point, it's like we sort of cover all sorts of movies throughout the year. Um, but we were hoping to get several queer movies featured in the month of June because I don't know if you've been to a bank recently, but it's it's pretty. It's pride one, um, so happy pride to everybody, and we um. We had big plans for this month and then unfortunately, I Jamie got the homophobic COVID nineteen virus, an extremely homophobic, queer phobic in general virus. Yes, just not a friendly So I got really sick and it kind of derailed our plans a little bit. Very very fortunate to be doing better now. Shout out to vaccines and pack Slovid. I don't know if anyone has been on the pack Slavid bus um, but in any case, you know, I feel I feel very lucky to have UM to be better, but it it did sort of derail our June a little bit, UM, and so we were thinking, um, what would be a fun episode to unlock for the month of June because me being success stuff back a little bit. So sorry, Okay, we're trying our best and we will also be like I mean, I feel like we cover movies with queer themes all the time now, so it's like the boundary of June, we don't observe UM. But but in any case, we wanted to unlock an episode that had um queer themes. The Bobba Duck. You may say, now, hold on, what are you talking about? I do believe we cover it in text in this episode of why Duck is considered a queer icon. We spend a long time talking about it in fact, and I think and and I believe because we were This episode originally came out on our Matreon, which, by the way, if you enjoy the fun the loose energy of this episode, always a reminder to go to our Patreon ak, Matreon, Patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast for two bonus episodes a month and an over episode backlog. We've only um ever unlocked a handful of them on the main feed, and we don't make a habit of it except for when one of us gets um wildly ill. So there you go. But I do believe because we discuss we won't spoil it here. We do discuss why the Babba Duck is considered a queer icon and has been embraced as a queer icon, even though that's not necessarily in the text, but we address why. But I believes because this is from this is an episode from almost four years ago October. It's rather far back in the Matrion's history and at the time I don't know if I mentioned it in the episode, but I had pitched an episode about queer icon the Bobba Duck on my first season at Robot Chicken. This is familiar, and because this is episode is four years old, that sketch did get into the show and was released on the show in so I will be linking to the sketch hopefully like it. I was very I was shocked and thrilled that it somehow got into the show. It is an episode. It's like, I don't know, put yourself into your brain if you count. It was very timely at the time, queer Icon The Bobba Duck goes on to new Netflix Queer Eye. Oh that's good. That's good, amazing. Thank you, thank you for your support of a TV show that came about three years ago. Look, I was proud of it, and the Babba Duck is a queer icon. And also the Babba Duck was like, even outside of this fascinating history of how the Babba Duck became a queer icon, it's also just a movie that is full of discussion that's relevant to our show. Yes, which you are about to hear I found And maybe this is just but I feel like in the years since we released that episode, the Babba Duck being a queer icon has kind of fallen out of the zeitgeist. And I'm hoping that us releasing this episode, like you know, like unlocking this episode will remind people, don't forget about the Babba Duck. It's being a queer icon. It's true. I don't think I've really I don't think it's like that the Babba Duck has been removed from Cannon, but it just's not as discussed as as it was. And I want to say, like eighteen nineteen, you know, in a world where there is a dearth of sheer joy, the Babba Duck as queer icon, I feel like, um, you know is worthy of your attention. Hopefully you enjoy if you if you're not aware of this, you'll enjoy learning the origins. Because this is a Matreon episode, I guess we should quickly tell people what the Bechtel test is, because we don't do that in Matrion episodes. Yes, and I will. We will do that by giving an example. And here's the example of something that passes the Bechtel test. Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlin, did you know that? I believe it was sometime in twenty nineteen. The director of The Babba Duck, Jennifer Kent, finally commented, I did not know this. Wait, so she was asked her thoughts on the Babba Duck being a queer icon, and of course for her conversations about the Babba Duck past the Bechtel test, because yes, the Babba Duck is a genderless slash gender fluid slash non binary icon and also the Backel test passes kind of like whatever is interesting to us in a lot of cases true to true. Um. But Jennifer Kent finally responded, I leave. In an interview with Entertainment Weekly, I think she was on the press tour for her film The Nightingale. She was asked what her thoughts were on the Baba Duck as a gay icon, and she said, quote, I'm still trying to work that one out. It's quite perplexing. I feel it's really quite beautiful, but I still have no idea why. I mean, I kind of do unquote Oh okay. That's truly an iconic response because it is very funny, Like I feel like, first of all, it is a gift for a character you invented to be taken out of context by accident, become a queer icon, and then be asked what you think about it, You're like, um, I guess that's awesome, because it is. But also I think her response makes quite a quite a lot of sense for you're like, yeah, great, Um, well, shout out Jennifer Kent, shout out Babba Duck, shout out this movie, and that did, in fact pass the Betel test top to bottom test, which is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alice and Becktel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. There are many versions of the test. Here is the one that we use. A piece of media passes the Becktel test if there are two characters of a marginalized gender who have names, they speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man. And then we add the caveat you know, at least a two line exchange, and hopefully that conversation is narratively meaningful. And I am thrilled. I mean, I think it's just very fun that we unlike this episode. Hopefully you agree. Um, we have a really fun lineup planned for the summer. We willbviously, we will always be covering queer movies on this show. Apologies for our June getting a bit derailed this year, but we're back on track. I am still testing positive, however, I feel okay. I mean, you know, first of all, I'm very lucky that I can work from home. Second, of all, the walls of this apartment, unfortunately, I mean, they couldn't be more familiar to me. We were locked in our houses for quite a long time. True. So UM, with that in mind, UM, thank you for listening to the show, Happy Pride, Thank you for your patients with this slight disruption, and we are going to have a a fun summer ahead. It's not indeed we are Hot Girl Summer. Hot Girl Summer was, I believe, and twenty Hot Dog Summer was summer one. I don't really know what hot. I mean, what's going to be hot this summer? Hot planet summer seems depressing, but high gas price summer. God, we really I can't think of something non dystopian. We'll circle back on on that. It's going to be a hot summer, that's for sure. Yes, but thank you so much for listening. Join the Matreon if you are enjoying the vibe of this episode we have. You know it's no longer um. But Caitlin and I do like to get a little chaotic and fun on the Matreon stream. For example, this month our theme was I Know what you did last Midsummer And we're not going to tell you what movies we covered because it's in the title. Yes, you'll be able to figure it out. You're smart. I'm going to rattle off a bunch of just kind of not random, but you know, thoughts that pertain two things. One um thoughts that have pertained to things things Ever heard of them? First, Jamie, I'm glad you're recovering from COVID and feeling better too. I think that the Babba Duok the movie is one of its kind of thesis statements, is something that we also have as a as a thesis statement on the Bechtel cast, which is, um, don't read books. We don't, we don't read books. The book and the Babba Duck. That is true, it's bad. So I feel really close to the movie The Babba Duck for that reason. Good messaging. Do not read, don't don't read books. They're they're dangerous, I think is the main takeaway. Trying to hurt you ye from the movie. Let's see. I would like to plug an upcoming tour I have so maybe you know it's it's not howt girl summer. It's hot Caitlyn on tour summer because I'm going to Europe. Ever heard of it? And I'm doing shows in Barcelona, Madrid, Paris, Amsterdam, hopefully London, hopefully Edinburgh, I've got to figure some of those out. But check out my website and take a gander at the shows I'm doing, and if you live in any of those places, come say hello. I love it. I will plug Ghost Church UM, which is finishing its run this coming week. This is my podcast that if you've been listening to the Battle Cast, you probably heard me plug the hell out of it. But it's my most recent UM solo podcast that is about the history of American spiritualism and my time that I spent in a spiritualist camp in central Florida where I am going back to UH in a week and a half. Oh that's right, because you're going you are going to Florida. I am going to Florida for some in two is just Florida is a magnet and I am a piece of metal. UM so I have I I am doing shows in l all summer. I think I'm gonna need doing a few shows in Boston in July, but outside of that, I'm going to be hanging out with my my mediums in in Florida. So listen to Ghost Church UM. A lot of love went into it. Produced by backdel Cast producer, So if you lic Treman, featuring the voice talents of Caitlin Darante, of Paula Tompkins, of Robert Evans, of many many talented people. And um, I think that that's all I have to say without further ado, shall we uh Boba Duck, let's shall enjoy the episode. Hello, my matrons, us its u? How are you? Jamie having a day? Honestly? I mean, and we're also recording this uh that I'm literally like, he ad a picture of a gravestone on my computer because I just designed that his wife shirt, which will be out soon. Um. All that to say, you know, we're we're keeping it loose, and we're recording this a week after the Kavanaugh hearings, but before the whole FBI think has been settled. And I don't know, yeah, personally, I took the morning off and I'm still fucking exhausted. How are you I'm I'm you know, I just want to like puke. I just I stay off of social media for the most part. I have not been keeping up with the news enough because it's far too depressing. Um. But hey, speaking of depression and mental illness, let's talk about the Baba Duck. I love the thing is I love the Baba Duke so much? Okay, here's a question. Is Bubba Duck When I said like that, is that an Australian accent? Oh, I don't know. I say Duke. I hit the I say, well, in the movie they say it Bobba Duck. But I think it's because Australia. Right, Okay, Well, I mean you sorry for ye you want. I can say it however I want. Anyone can say it however they want. Choosing how to identify as an important imbedded not even choosing. It's it's acceptance. It's a message of a failure to accept. Yeah, I think that. I mean, well, there are two ways to view the Babba Duck Duke. There is the textual reading, which is pretty generally understood and even copped too by the writer director Jennifer Kent was cops to do a pretty one to one metaphor or for postpartum depression, the Baba Duke being a monster that represents postpartum depression. Then there's a meta textual reading that I think it's way cooler, which is I believe it was twenty I believe the year was twenty sixteen when Netflix miscategorized the Baba Duke as an LGBT film, and the LGBT community lgbt Q I plus, etcetera community, as they have historically done, welcome to the Baba Duke into the community rather than rejecting them. And it became really one of my favorite memes of all time is that instead of saying, hey, this doesn't belong here, let's let's make sure that the Baba Duke gets out of the lgbt Q category, they instead said, oh, the Baba Duke was queer, and it introduces, well, do you have the tabs of let's because because the specific jokes are so rich, I think this is the more interesting conversation. There's a there's a BuzzFeed listical which just features many of the tweets and good question. I know that Babba Duke was being joked as being like the special guest at Pride in Yeah, but I don't know what amount of time before that people were beginning to make the jokes and the queer icon Babba Duke was making the rounds on the Internet. Yeah, there's all kinds of really funny tumbler conversations, memes and tweets where the queer community is embracing queer icon Babba Duke as one of their own. That's not to say that everyone in the queer community is on board. I mean I've spoken to a few people who were like, whatever, it's like. I think, like any meme, it could be perhaps viewed as cheesy, overdone TACKI definitely understand that view completely. Yeah, personally, I love it. I do too. And so we'll tell me your your history with the film The Babba Duke. Oh gosh, I think I saw and I'm pretty sure most people who have seen this movie did not see it in theaters. They saw it on Netflix. It's a movie that very much found its legs and streaming. So I saw, Yeah, I saw it in in streaming. I'm pretty sure I saw the stark image of the Bomba Duke. It was like, it seems like my kind of fit, you know. I like the fit. I liked the the illiterative nature of the name, and I watched it as like it was like the kind of thing. On first viewing, I'm like, this plot is all over the place enough that it needs to be a metaphor for something I'm missing. And then did a light goog and realize that indeed it was a you know, kind of like and not even to be overly critical of Jennifer Kent. I think she's made a lovely, thoughtful, interesting, scary movie, but it does. We were talking about this during the viewing, where it gets so in the weeds on its own metaphor that if there was no metaphor, if you're just looking at the plot, there's a lot of moments that you're like, um, sure, you know, almost like and not. I mean, it's like that issue to Mother, Aroonowski's movie from last year, but I think it's like, oh, far lesser offense of the same crime of just like a movie that's so caught up in its own metaphor that it loses any sort of plot. Babba Doke is not to the I mean, Mother is just like Mother barely has a plot. It makes its story is at the expense of the extended metaphors unintelligible. But the Babba do I mean, there's it's more like there are a few scenes and plot points that you're like, I'm not totally with this, especially like that, and well, I guess don't I do the recap? Yeah, Um, it's if weird. We're having so many there's so there's so much to quote one yearser baba discourse to have so my brief history with it before I do that, how dare I'm sorry, goodness, gracious, unbelievable, Jamie. I saw streaming as well. I remember there being like a lot of buzz about it when it first came to Netflix, and people were like, oh, I heard it, so freaking scary. It's the best horror movie. You know. While people were going crazy about it. It came out in two thousand fourteen. I think I probably didn't watch it until sometime in oh fifteen, but I was like, okay, yeah, I I appreciated it's production design. I think a lot of care went into stylizing the movie. I think that the performances are really good. You know me, I generally I'm not the hugest fan of a lot of child acting. It's not that I hate the actors themselves, it's just that I don't think that. But the child, the kid who plays I mean, you do feel it reminds me of this horrible health class I had in seventh grade. You do feel her pain of like, yeah, this kid is socreaming and she doesn't have the support she needs to get this kid to not be screaming. It's not even like the reasons the kids are screaming are wrong, But how do You're just one person reminds me of this. I had this horrible, horrible chain smoking health teacher named Mr Starziac in seventh grade and his famous lesson was on shaking baby syndrome. It was like notorious. It was like in seventh grade because my older cousins had gotten in a few years before me, and she's like, my cousin Tammy was like, oh, you're gonna get Mr Starza shaking baby lesson and so fucked up. But she wouldn't tell me no spoilers. And what he did was he would go into the beginning of class would be like, so, none of you guys would shake a baby to death, right, and we'd all be like, no, of course not. He was like, good, just checking, and then he would put on a cassette tape of a baby screaming and would turn it all the way up and would leave a baby doll sitting on top of the tapercorder so it seemed like the baby was crying, and then he would leave the room god, and he would leave it there the whole period. His point being babies are annoying and eventually you're gonna want to kill them them today, But no seventh grader would ever like it was annoying and it was gratinggg but it was more everyone was just like, why is he doing this? Does he want one of us to try to shake this baby? No one did, and according to my cousins experiences, no one did in their class either. They just sort of sat there and they were just like, this is annoying, but like more like why is our teacher doing this? And so eventually, in every case, when a student inevitably does not shake the baby to break the tension, Mr Starsiac comes back into the room and shake the baby himself, and he would be like, see is this annoying? And we'd be like yes, and he's like, yeah, don't you want to shake this baby? And he'd shake the doll and my year was particularly iconic because the head of the doll popped off and then he'd stop the tape recording and be like, I don't know you'd be and that's shaking baby syndrome. Wow. So that was what Samuel's performance was invoking for me, what a horrible thing to do to kids. There's no prevention techniques to just explaining it was basically he was just like confirming the baby's crying is annoying, and you might come to the temptation to shake them. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, it happens. But you can pretty much get why you like, Yeah, okay, well you're not the best educator we've ever known. So yeah, I saw the movie once and I liked it, but I didn't quite get all of the hype. I wasn't like, you know, it was because it is a little nonsensical, especially as the movie progresses, and certainly in like the third act, where the resolution is a little confusing, and when you do look at it from the perspective of the Babba Duck is a manifestation of her postpartum depression. Then the implications of what happens are I mean, we'll talk about them, but it's you know, it's a strange choice. Um, yes, but yeah, we could talk about that. So the story of the Babba Duck, Yes, do tell us Babba, the Book of the Babba Book, the Book, the Babba Discourse, The Babba Duck is about a mother named Amelia who lost her husband on the day that her son was born. So they were driving to the hospital. They get in a car accident, her husband dies. Can I say kind of lazy writing a little death on the way to the hospital, like all right, but it does keep with the one to one nature of this movie, right, So we learned about this accident just through a series of like kind of quick cuts and visuals. Uh. And then we are with her and her son, Samuel, who is six or seven years old something like that. I think he says to be in first or second grade. Yeah, So they're in a quiet Australian community. Um. Her son has a lot of behavioral problems. He has different weapons that he's assembled. It seems that he brings to school, he gets in trouble about that. He acts out quite a bit at home. He doesn't tend to get along with other children. And then he also is inclined to flights of fancy where he he loves magic. He loves um which a magician. As we all know, a young man interested in magic is a red flag. A young man who thinks you don't be awesome if I could control everything around me is dangerous anyway. See, I really appreciate, you know, close up magic. So I I think, no, that's when a man's like, get closer, it'll get more interesting. I promise. I control everything. Musicians triggering. Okay, So he loves he loves magic. He lets his imagination run away with him, and he's always seeing monsters. So his mom's like, there aren't any monsters. So one day it's bedtime and he's like, read me a story, and he pulls a book off the shelf called Mr. Baba Duke, which we'll get into the needless gendering of the Baba Duke later. Sure I think the movie is not called Mr. Baba Duke for a reason. Sure because non binary icon, not a feminist icon, necessarily does try to kill Amelia a bunch and and stocks their neighbor Mrs Roach. He's like, sorry, they they are are hanging out. They have certainly some crimes to answer for, but being a non binary icon is not one of them. So she reads Mr Bubba Duck the book the Imagery, and it is scary and it's about this monster who will come and get you. And then the less you believe in the Bubba Duck, the more, they will interfere with your life. So yeah, so Amelia reads this to Samuel. She writes it off is just a story, but Samuel insist that the Bubba Duck is real and is around and is tormenting him, and this causes even more problems at school where he basically gets kicked out of school even though he's a young, very young child. And he is at his cousin's birthday party and he pushes her ruby Ruby not an icon of any sort of anything, but does she just because you're not an icon doesn't mean you should be pushed out of a tree. Certainly not important to remember. So he his like, misbehavior is like dialing up to an eleven and pushing kids out of trees. It's a problem, right. So she's saying, you know, stop with this Babba Duk thing. The Babba Duck is not real. But then she starts to see glimpses of the freaking duck. Yeah, so she's like, hey, wait a minute, this isn't real. I'm seeing things and she's in denial and she throws the book away, but then the book, you know, she rips it up and put the Abba book. What is the Aba Babba Duck crossover event we've all been waiting for. I would be baba shook if that happened. Can I plug my Baba Duck thing soon? Yeah? Next season of Robot Chicken early nineteen. Keep your eyes peeled for. Honestly, what I think is my greatest accomplishment to date, which is a sketch called Queer Eye for the Babba Duck. Yeah. I can't wait to see it. I'm really excited. I think it's a tale of becoming. Anyways, So yeah, we've got um Boba Duck Mamma Mia, that's going to happen. Bye Bye Man. The Bye Bye Man is also so funny. Did you see that whatever that movie it was, It loves called Bye Man. It's like a Slenderman knockoff, was my understanding. And then it's like you can miss it. But the double the double entendre of the Bye Bye Man is fun. Also, Roger says bye bye when he gets off the phone. Okay, that's just a flourish ab Okay. So she's she's chucking the Babba Duck book in the bin if you're working and chucking, but the Bubba Duck Book comes back on her doorstep, and she's like, what the hell, So then she burns it. She goes to the police and says, I'm being stalked and they're like, wait, don't believe you. Sure, And then the Babba Duck gets worse. Uh. It starts to really torment her. She's having different delusions, she is, she can't sleep, and when the Bubba Duck book comes back, more of the story has filled in, and it's like, you're going to kill your dog and your son by the way. She's like, no, I'm not. But then she does kill her dog because she's being more and more possessed I suppose by the duck. And then the duck she kind of snaps too. She she does nearly kill her son because she's holding a large knife. And there's an interesting switch that happens where in the beginning of the movie, Samuel is intolerable as a character because of his behavioral problems, and you feel really sorry for the mom having to deal with a child like that, and then there's a switch that happens where Samuel becomes a super sympathetic character because his mom is trying to kill him and or neglecting him and or verbally abusing him, and then the mom meanwhile is doing all these horrible things. So like the character you're identifying and sympathizing with most there's like a stark switch that happens. So she throws up some black, very Jennifer's body kind of bile, yeah, and then you know she seems like she's about to lose it, and you know her son has tied her up in the basement. But then she kind of comes to and she has this face to face contation with the Babba Duck and she's like, this is my house. You're trespassing in my house. Get out of here. And then it like it seems like the Babba Duck has been defeated and or kept at bay, because then we cut to her and her son there and they're nice, clean clothes. Again, they're not covered in black vomit. She goes down to the basement, the Babba Duck is there, presumably kind of like tied up or something, and she's like, here, eat some worms. It's weird, and then that's the end of the movie. So metaturreally, if if we are remembering that the Babba Duck is a manifestation of her mental illness, I guess all you have to do to cope with mental illness is just acknowledged that it's there and then kind of lock it away and your subconscious there's I think that there's a little more to it than I mean, it's again it's like kind of a sloppy metaphor, but ultimately I think it's like supposed to mean. And then I think the reason it doesn't work is because it like skips ahead with so many like it depicts the I guess, like the battle between a woman in postpartum depression, right, but then it just skips ahead to like and now it's treatment and everything's great and it's not none of the abuse towards her sons, slash animal cruelty as ever ad dressed and it's just all this. We're like, yeah, we really like flipped ahead on this this one. I don't know that she's saying. I mean, I think that it's more like not locking mental illness away, but like finding a way to restrain dark thoughts. Because I think the actual movie, not the queer masterpiece version of it, the Baba Duke represents all the like not even I don't even know like it could possibly even recommend like just be depicting the ugliest parts of this illness of like dark thoughts that are attacking you and possessing you and making you, you know, do things you wouldn't normally do, and locking those away and keeping them at bay with you know, little zolaf worms and what have you. I'm tired. I don't know. I mean, the movie is creepy and there's scary imagery, but when you really think about it, like like we do on our podcast, yeah it is technically our job, it doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of sense. I think a movie that has a clear metaphor that also has a story that makes sense and it's also you know, very creepy and hunting is it follows which I would love to do an episode on sometimes. Well, I it's certainly not without its problems, But I think I just enjoyed that movie more interesting. Yeah, I like see. I think that that comes It might come down to like a preference thing too, because I prefer call me simple. But I like a villain with a face. I know, it's scarier when they don't have a face and you're like, where's he, Where's he? But I like a villain I mean I'm literally dressing up as a Babba duke for Halloween. I'm like, give me a villain with a with a fit and an aesthetic and an objective. Um, it's less scary, but it looks not necessarily Yeah, I think it is a matter of preference. Yeah, but let's take a quick break and then we will come back for more discussion. So as far as the female characters, um, we have a few. There aren't that many characters in this movie at all. We've got Amelia, We've got Samuel. There is Amelia's sister Claire. There's Claire's daughter Lucy, who we see the both of them in a couple of scenes, but they are certainly more secondary characters who don't get a ton of screen time. There is a colleague of Amelia's who I think is that Robbie. Oh she works, Yeah, she works, and some sort of um like a nursing home or a hospital of some sort. And yeah, so there's the Benga mistress, etcetera. Yeah, please start calling me the Bam Yeah, I already do behind your back so much. Um. And then there's Mrs Roach, their neighbor, and then we see glimpses of Amelia's dead husband, and that's really about it. There's a couple of like child protect to service people who visit the house a couple of times, but yeah, it's really just those two main characters of Amelia and Samuel and of course Papa Duck. So that means there's not a whole lot of interaction between women. You know, Amelia does talk to her sister Claire a few times. She does talk to Mrs Roach a few times. Claire as a character is like, I don't know. I mean, there are a few elements of this that are like turned up to an eleven, to the point of, like, do we like anyone in this movie where you're definitely sympathetic towards Amelia at most points in the movie. Towards the end, you're like, oh, geez, she killed a dog. Making her kill a dog was such a move because that will like lose you nine of any rational audience. But that said, Claire, Amelia's sister, seems to truly not sympathize with amelia situation at all, which is confusing to me because I don't know, there's a lot of people and to be careful about the way phrases there's a lot of people who are very aggressive to Amelia in this movie that don't necessarily make a ton of sense. Where like Claire obviously fully knows that Amelia lost her husband in an accident that she was in. She knows that her nephew Samuel is traumatized by this, She knows that Amelia has to work a lot to support her and Samuel, and and she knows that Amelia also has a lot of trauma. So why is she so completely and utterly unset Like literally most of their interactions are screaming Yeah, it's very strange. I don't know. I mean I think perhaps that Claire was maybe more supportive in the more immediate aftermath of the accident, and she's just sort of gotten sick of Yeah, I mean that does make but that I mean, that's not being as supportive as a sister as she could be. But I don't necessarily think that Claire is completely unjustified in her behavior, especially when in her being frustrated, Yeah, her frustration and then also um because she does make an effort to include Amelia and Samuel in her and her daughter's life for sure, and the moment where she really decides to kind of give up on them. Is when her daughter get pushes Lucy out of a treehouse. So I know, I guess, I guess, And it has been seven years, and that is like a hard thing to be like, Okay, how what am I supposed to do? But it's true that you know she could even if she is frustrated by the situation, it feels like she could do more to either find help for Amelia. Um whether it's you know, is this a critique of the Australian Australian public health system? Had to know that was really bad? Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what active commentaries, if any, are being made in the movie. It is maybe worth noting that whenever she whenever Amelia goes to the police and says like, someone's leaving this creepy book outside of my house, the cops are like, well, you don't have that book that you said that they gave you, so we're even gonna try to investigate this that. What I do think is interesting about this movie is that the struggles of being a mother are the focus of the story, particularly a single mother. Yes, most movies don't bother to explore or address that at all. Um. This movie reminded me a lot of Tully Um, which came out earlier this year, which I saw. I didn't especially like it just because it wasn't my type of movie. It's a well made movie, and it's well written and everything like that, it's just not my genre. The tone isn't for me, but it's another And she's not a single mother in that movie, but she does have a husband who is hands off in some ways. It's a very generous, right. Yeah. I can only think of a few movies like this where the struggle of of being a parent and of being a mother is deeply explored. I certainly don't know anything about what it's like to be a mother, and I have expressed many times that I don't want to have kids, so I will never know. But I am very sympathetic to and also admiring of people who do choose to have kids because I could never do it. I simply don't have the patience or energy or any of the things that you have to have to be a parent. Um. A trap this movie you could have easily fallen into, is being like single motherhood is absolute hell, which it isn't for every single moment's certainly challenging, but like there, if that were the only message of the movie, that would be like probably insulting to some mothers who are making it work just fine, and you know the implication of a lack of father or even secondary parents figures and how a failure. But this movie totally justifies the hell world it creates by afflicting its single parent with significant trauma that would make anyone's life conceivable in terms of like if we're heightening it to a horror world, it's not a far cry because of the trauma associated with, you know, watching your spouse die and feeling like it's your fault, and also adding the mental illness factor, which a lot of movies do irresponsibly. But I think that this movie like depicts and again it's like I'm obviously not a mother either, but from what I can tell, just based on the reception, and I did read a few kind of one off blog posts from mothers to would experienced postpartum depression that this movie really hit with seems to be almost like a realistic metaphor for this particular mental illness, almost to a fault, you know, like to like what we're saying to the point where there's like kind of plot holes because it is more concerned or the the agenda of this movie is more concerned with depicting postpartum in a metaphor than it is with having the story that makes a whole ton of sense. But I mean that's but I mean that is a positive of of Like, Usually mental illness in the horror genre is used as kind of like a god in the machine kind of thing to explain away, Oh, why is he evil? Um, he's bipolar, Like he's schizophrenic, or he's dissociative, or like son was taken away and she's mad, and you know, kind of these reductive ways of referring to mental illness just to keep the story going. But this movie kind of does the opposite, where understanding and exploring the mental illness is the reason the movie exists in the first place, and so that aspect of it isn't just cast aside, which is cool. Um. And I think we talked a little bit about this on the Halloween episode that I believe will coincide pretty closely with the release of this Boba Duck episode. So it's either about to come out or it just has but we explore how a lot of horror movies helped perpetuate the stigma of mental illness by having killers who are something. Right. We mentioned in Halloween where there is a psychiatrist character who has been working with the killer Michael Myers since his child old hood, and his official medical diagnosis for Michael Myers is that he is evil just like al Right, I wonder if the filmmakers think that having mental illness is bless you goodness grations. I am expelling many demons this time the Boba I just sneezed out the Papa Duke. That was the Baba duke Duke Duke. Yeah, anyway, leave that in. But yeah, so many films of this genre, especially really mishandled a portrayal of mental illness equated with being if you experienced any sort of mental illness, sorry, you're probably evil. Right and then and again it's as I think we were also discussing in the Halloween episode. Offenses like this are especially apparent in genres that are as campy as horror movies, where like mental illness stigma can be found littered throughout media everywhere from Time you Know immemorial. But in the less subtle genres. It's easier to be like, yes he has he I have a prescription for evil and it is shooting you to death. That's literally the script that that psychiatrist delivers is the only cure for evil's murder, which is I would love to see that written on a prescription path. But yeah, that is I mean to this movie's credit, because I I still really like this movie. I think that it's it's one of those movies that it's like, it's not a horror movie that is scary after the first time you watch it. But I remember the first time watching this, I was pretty scared. Like when you before you fully understand what the Bobba Dick is and what it represents, and you're just like, what does the Duke's deal? Sure give me the duke. Maybe it's weird because when you look at a movie like this that is so steeped in a very feminine metaphor, you're like, oh, we're gonna have so much to talk about. But the movie really does uh do what it says out to do, and you either like it or you don't work for you or it doesn't. But in terms of I mean, I think that this would be an example of a movie that absolutely benefits from a woman who understands what she's writing about, writing and directing it, because can you imagine if a man wrote and directed this, it would just be all kinds of like to refer to our carry episode is definitely out just like weird, like this is what a woman would say, right, kind of kind of what happens to her body I think and also her mind question gush, what when the first period they ever get? Uh, stuff like that. But like you know, in in that way, it's good because that isn't something that really hit for me at all. I mean in terms of, like there's times where all characters seem to be behaving and reacting over the top, but in terms of totally missing how this female character has written. You almost always up until the very end, you know, when she's possessed by the Babba Duke, you're kind of just like this is a good killing dogs. But for the most part, the movie does a good job of like building a world where you understand why she is so frustrated and feels so depressed and like the world is closing in on her. And definitely yeah, so I mean, hats off to Jennifer Kent in that regard, I mean for writing a woman's story, and also I mean, it's not a last girly kind of movie. Is really one woman. Yeah, she's the final girl from the start, which brings me to gendering the Baba Duke. Why must be gender? The Baba Duke? Why must why? Mr Baba Duke? Why did the bob Did anyone talk to the Baba Duke about this? The movie is called The Baba Duke. I think, with with good reason is that the Baba Duke never specifies their gender, and so it is a rude assumption to assume mail. I think that this contributes to a lot of the Baba Duke's rage, you know, I just I also wonder I couldn't find a response from Jennifer Kent about this, which I think is kind of a missed opportunity for her, Like that's like a whole opportunity to get people to watch her movie a second time. The publication that I was reading at the time it was published, she hadn't commented oh yes here in the Guardian article about it. Um. Though director Jennifer Kent is aware of the meme, she has not commented on it. I'll have to say, I mean, I guess like if you're putting yourself in Jennifer Kent's uh, that is kind of annoying. Okay, you're fun time, Caitlin. Imagine you use both of your college degrees and you spend years writing your first movie. You're also going to direct, and you know you're really gonna put your heart into it, and you make it. It's good, and you get good performances and you're like, oh my gosh, this is great. Movie does okay in theaters, and then Netflix is like, hey, Caitlin, we think you really have something to say here. Your movie is so well reviewed, we'd love to be on streaming. And you're like, oh my god, so many people are going to see my movie and they're gonna be able to take away the message and I'm so thrilled that this is happening. And then, by accident, just to switch to the narrative a little bit, your movie which is about what's your movie about? It's about the struggle of being a woman in comedy. Okay, it's a movie about the struggle of being a woman in comedy, and Netflix, by mistake, puts it under car documentaries, and all these car aficionados are like, what why is this here? And then all of a sudden, the movie you put years into, they're like, oh my god, car related icon we love. And then your character is appearing at all these car conventions and you're like, Okay, I'm getting pressed, but I feel like my original message has been lost in the shuffle a bit. I can understand why she's but I still think I'm like, of all communities to be welcome into, you know, the queer. You can't do better, definitely, but you know, Jeffer Kent, enough time has passed, embrace queer Baba Duke and and honestly, you know, get the funding for a sequel, right, Babba Bubba and extremely Babba Duke Dukey movie. That's a Green Day documentary? Wait what is I did it all for the for the NUCKI nick But there's that Green Day album called Dukie Anyways, Uh that was a miss. Well. I think this episode is perfect best I wanted to I don't even know if this is worth really talking about what I wanted to let mention the masturbation scene. Oh I do think that's worth mentioning. Yeah, because it is rare in film to see female pleasure, to see self administered female pleasure. They never It's always under the coveries. And like, honestly, when I was a kid, it literally took me until I was in my late teens to even figure out how women masturbated at all, because there was no there's no book for that. There's no babok, there's no miss there's no miss Babba duke. What if there's an everybody poops with the story the babade everybody do masterbase everybody dudes. Yeah, well fan art, everyone's got a couple of days to kill and wants to make everybody do let us know. We'd love to promote it to her. Um. Yeah, anyway, so the dooking scene, Um, when she's giving herm baba a little duke. Yeah, Yeah, she's using a vibrator and she seems like she nearly reaches orgasm except Samuel comes in and interrupted. Right, I think that, I mean, it's weird because that seems to be I think in factly she uses a sex toy is kind of different. But injury, I feel like we do see female masturbation fairly frequently in like thriller, slasher kind of things, and it is always followed by something negative. I mean it seems that what movie do we recently watched that Carry, there's like a moment where carries feeling herself and Carry, and there's a negative connotation where she scares herself because she doesn't understand what her body. Happens in teeth, same thing happens in teeth. I was thinking to see in Black Swan, like we see a lot of depictions of women scaring themselves by masturbating. Right, there's like feelings of shame almost always associated right shame and almost like unfamiliarity of like, oh, I've never done this before? What the fuck is this? Which is fair, but also like you know, for future generations, like also show them how to freaking follow through or they'll be literally in college like oh how does one do that? And they'll think their boyfriend invented kind of guess so dumb. Anyways, seeing a sex way and seeing someone who knew what they were doing was like hell yeah. And then I feel like the ultimate point of that scene was like to make it clearer or that she can't get a moment's peace right, that her responsibility as a mother to her son is always going to take precedent over her being able to do anything for herself. Yeah, And because I don't really know anything about postpartum depression firsthand, I don't know if a thing like that would exacerbate the mental illness. I don't know if because it seems like she doesn't have any real opportunity to practice self care, so I imagine that that's probably so that's probably making her depression worse, or it's certainly not helping with it. So yeah, there's like different factors that are playing into it seems exacerbating the depression that she's experiencing, right, and then that means we get to see more Bob a Duke on screen. The more depressed she is, the more Duck we see. So really the sequel good math problem. But so I think that is really all I had as far as things to talk about. Yeah, it's it's a it's a good I mean, if you want to revisit it this holiday season, highly recommend. It's a it's a scary movie. If you've never seen it before, give it a look. Yeah, give it a baba look, give it a yeah. Um, does this movie pass the Bechdel test? I'm going to be perfectly honest and say that I forgot to pay attention to that part of the movie. It does, but it's not an astounding past unless we count the Babba Da talking to Amelia and their baba discourse. The baba discourse scenes all pass I think Amelia, I don't know what gender the dog was, so that would change. But if Bucksby it was female identifying, I guess the screaming from Amelia and the screaming back from the dog, I can't imagine a world in which that conversation would have referenced demand. It really seemed like the safety of a female dog was the subject for discussion. So but there was one scene, uh, at least with Amelia and Claire where the majority. It's tricky because Amelia's number one concern is Samuel, so most of what she talks about is about him, But there were there was at least a three line exchange at one point where Claire is kind of asking Amelia does she need more help? She's taking care of herself. There was a senior referencing earlier, and Amelia does not answer in verboth ways, but she's basically just like, I'm fine, I'm fine. Don't worry. I'm fine. So it does. It does pass at least once between the sisters, but there's certainly opportunities for it to pass more. Also, let the Babba Duke speak. Why does the Babba duke. The only line the Babba Duke gets when he's inhabiting the dead husband vessel is you can bring me the boy. Yeah, right, that doesn't pass. That certainly doesn't pass. And then the Babba duck saying the Bubba duck's name Babba duck duck duck yeah, is iconic the psychotic right because and then Amelia also speaks with Mrs Roach, her neighbor. I think almost all of those conversations are directly about Samuel. And then also um Claire when she's Amelia and Claire are talking. If they're not talking about Samuel, it's also about her dead husband and how Amelia needs to get over it. So but yeah, I think there are at least a few very short exchanges within larger conversations that do pass the Bechdel test. So, uh, what would you rate the movie on her Nipple scale of its treatment of women? I suppose I'm hitting the duke. Um hitting the duke with a three, And the reason I'm hitting the Duke with a three is that it represents a uniquely female struggle in a way that gives it the seriousness and attention it deserves. It does not belittle I mean, Alia at any point. The story doesn't make you. Even when the people in the world are saying Amelia is crazy, we understand where she's coming from. We understand why she feels like the walls are closing in. And so for people who haven't experienced mental illness, particularly this mental illness, it gives you kind of some insight that seems fairly grounded into what that feels like. And I think that that's very unique and something that genre films tend to do very well because you're just able to amplify elements and it doesn't have to be a nuanced representation of mental illness. And that's like kind of the point. So I think the Amilia character, while it kind of goes off the rails at the and I agree in terms of characterization of her and of Samuel, who suddenly you feel bad for even though he's screaming must the movie, uh, well, that tracks for me. The main thing that I don't that I have a little trouble with is the very sudden resolution, because if she is supposed to be age, you know, struggling with this mental illness, it seems to resolve almost instantaneously. And I wish that the ending wasn't even there, like the post ending wasn't even there, because it seems to be a story of someone struggling with mental illness. It's not a story of hitting bottom and then having to reacclimate into the world. That's a totally different story and phase of dealing with mental illness. The objective of the movie is the show a woman approaching her lowest point and getting there to the point where she has no choice. You can either die, kill her son, or compartmentalize the Bobba Duke like lit like physically. So flashing forward felt a little I get it, And it seems kind of like studio notes, e of like there, and but it does. I mean, that's just skips such a large portion of the metaphor that I almost wish they just kept it at like someone reaching their lowest point with mental illness and then having to be like enough. But I I don't know. I I think it is very unique and tells the story it wants to tell responsibly, even if the storytelling a plot wise sometimes gets a little bit off. It seems good, but there's still women aren't. I don't know's tricky because Amelia is very intentionally cut off from the world around her, but the center of her universe still are I would argue two men, her son and her deceased husband. And so not only do we not see her interact with anyone a lot, but we don't see her giving the women she does interact with. We don't really fully know what she hopes their relationship turns into, like what they're It's just kind of, you know, I would have liked to see more with her and her sister and exploring that relationship a little bit where it seems like there was something there but just not fully delivered on anyways, The Bobby Duck is a queer icon, and I'll give it to three. I kind of want to give it a three and a half, but there's I mean, kind of the usual blind spots of besides the Bobby Duke, no queer people, uh no people of color. This is in southern Australia. I don't know what the demographics of it is, but it's worth I guess saying that they filmed it entirely on location. Yeah, I don't know. Three fields right to make given all three to the Baba duke. Okay, good because the Baba Duck. Don't know if you know this or not, but the Baba duck has eight nipples. Amazing. This is Bubba duck facts. Melena plays a bobba. It's just like a weird thing. He does interesting performance, like, you know, I can do it. Um. I think I will also land on three nips because, as you mentioned, her world revolves around two male figures in her life, and they and the only person she's willing to welcome into her life as another man, the crush, right, And that might be because like her sister Claire, as her daughter, Lucy says, we don't go to your house anymore because it's too depressing. So, which is a very funny line. Yeah, there's a great line read by that. Yeah. So it has some cool things going for it. But also, you know, as we pointed out, there's some weird choices made at the end. Also, this movie, it is scary, but the main thing that gives me anxiety about watching it is just the hat the is like watching Samuel at the beginning just be like such a misbehaved, rambunctious kid who's throwing tantrums and like not listening and like being very reckless and dangerous with his like sharp weapons and stuff. Well maybe that means that like Mr Starziac's message would have resonated with you, baby, I wish I had. Maybe it would have been maybe you would have been the one to shake the baby. I would hope not. I don't think you would have. No, I'm not going to shake even a baby doll. God, when the head popped off, my life change. Its literally like I'm going to be a mother then. Yeah, And I also I think it's it's funny, even if it isn't for everyone. The fact that the queer community has sort of co opted the Boba duke is one of their own. It's embraced, it's funny, it's loving, it's the loor behind it is very funny. Yeah, it's great. So three nipples too to Mrs Roach because she just wanted to help. She loved them and she and she was a sweet woman. And I'll give my third nipple. Two Okay, give it to the dude. The Duke gets my third nipple, give it to the doll, give it to give it to the four dogs. Another thing, I feel like I need to watch this movie like five more times before I get like all this before I just like fully appreciated, because I feel like there's things I'm missing or things I'm misunderstanding or misinterpreting. I'm also curious if there are viewers of this movie of of any gender who are not aware of the metaphor of postpartum depression and mental illness and who just kind of watched it at face value and weird it. Well? It like, is that not that much weirder than any other kind of you know, horror monster movie? The metaphor behind the Bye Bye Man? Yeah, was that the what's the Mr Police? Oh my god? The snows polies ain't tried to see her. That was the funniest marketing made of all time. That's like, I feel like advertisers really try to make movie mark getting meimable now, but Sophie succeed And I hope that was an accident. Mr Police. Oh, I gotta look up the list of Mr Police memes now love it anyway, So anyway, that is our bob a Duck episode. Uh, feel free to you know, hit us with your comments and thoughts and everything. Thank you so much for listening. We love all of you, folks. We appreciate your all of you Boba Ducks out there. I gave you all the clues. Tell your friends, tell your other Baba Ducks, and enjoy our upcoming Halloween Town episodes. Yeah, we're rerecording to get right now. Wow wow we okay, see you next time. I gave you all the clues. By well, there you have it, folks. That was our unlocked Matreon episode now on the main feed of the Babba Duck. And like we said, we here and there. I think we've maybe unlocked like six or so Matreon episodes, but there are ever but there are literally a hundred others that are only on the Matreon feed, So we really encourage you to head over there. It's only five dollars a month. It's uh two bonus episodes every single month, and then again access to those many many backlogged episodes and you can find that at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. You're in for a treat, if we do say so ourselves, truly in our community. There is so much fun uh coming up in the next week. If you're listening to this episode the day it comes out, we are covering an episode we have getting We've gotten requests on basically weekly since it came out three years ago, which is Midsummer. We did an arid aster movie alright, and it was Caitlin's idea. So head over to the Matreon for a for a fun I was really happy with that episode. I'l like we had a great conversation around it. We've been having some fun convos over in the Matron. I really enjoyed our Top Gun episode from last month. I loved doing mid Summer this month and a little preview for next month, or doing Despicable Me. So because over there Midt, it's Minions March. Caitlin, I truly don't know if you're ready for how prepared I am for that episode. I literally have ordered three novels in Indonesian to prepare for that episode. I can't I just want to be able to unload it all at once. But I'm so excited. Oh right, I can't wait. So if you're also highly anticipating our episode on Despicable Me, head over Tom sit Treon and then well and then we're we're in talks on what the other episode is going to be for minions margin it's none of your business for now, could be anything, um so yes, check us out over on the Matreon and then you can also follow us on social media at Bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. If you if you'd be a deer, why don't you give us a nice little rate and review on wherever you listen to your podcast, Always a treat and look forward to an exciting summer. On the main feed, we have a lot of returning guests, we have a lot of new guests, we have a lot of popularly requested movies, and it's going to be a fun old summer. So we'll we'll talk to you next week. Bye bye ay