NFL-Golf Comps with Kevin Clark and Hawaiian Swing Review with Sean Martin

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

00:00:02
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

00:00:05
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball.

00:00:06
Speaker 3: In a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, Frida Egg Egg Friday Bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hup course.

00:00:34
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. I'm your host, Andy Johnson. Today I'm joined. We had a couple guests come on. So we have Joseph Lamania. He's going to be spending a lot more time on this podcast in twenty twenty four, and with this we want to have more kind of focused conversations around golf. So we had a couple of fun topics. We had Kevin Clark from ESPN and Omaha Productions. He is the host of the This Is Football podcast. He came on to do some golf NFL comps with the NFL playoffs here. Kevin's a he's a golf nutt he's a Club TFE member, he's a you know, he he follows golf very religiously, and so this was it was a it was fun to talk these NFL comps with with somebody that is versed in golf as Kevin. So that was the first part of this episode, and then the second part we had PGA Tours Sean Martin on to discuss h Hawaii in the start of the season, and then we got into kind of a detailed discussion about long putters and the wave that is kind of sweeping over the PGA tour. So let's get into it. We'll start with Kevin Clark on NFL PGA Tour Player and Comps. So thanks to both them. All right, we're gonna welcome on the host of This is the Football. This is Football podcast? God, this is the football? What what is wrong with me? This is football podcast?

00:02:13
Speaker 3: That would be an amazing title for a podcast, This is the Football?

00:02:19
Speaker 1: Kevin Clark. Also, Uh, I guess you're a contributor for Around the Horn. It's amazing that's that show came out when I was a kid and I'd come home from school, you know, I'd love that show. And now you're on it, and I feel like it's it's just unbelievable. A that is still running, the longevity of it, it's amazing, and B that you're on it. Kevin Clark. Uh, you know, I guess you're espn Omaha Productions, So thanks for coming out.

00:02:46
Speaker 3: I do two things, I said, I do it. I want to do two things. But yeah, I'm so glad to be here the Frida Egg. I'm wearing a FRIDAYGG hat. If this is audio only, if you're if you're experienced audio only, hopefully maybe you can see some video here. I'm a huge Frida Egg fan. I'm a huge Joseph Lamania and Andy Johnson, like is a thrill to be here.

00:03:07
Speaker 1: We're excited. I mean, we figured we'd used this opportunity with NFL. You know, NFL's moving golf coverage from from uh, you know, moving up coverage times in Hawaii. We lose primetime golf because of the NFL and their fear of running up against it. But you know, it's the NFL season and uh obviously it's the start of the golf season. So we figured we'd come we'd have you come on and do some NFL PGA Tour player cops. First off, you know, I got to ask, do you think golf should be running away from the from the NFL? Do you think it's smart for sports to run away from the NFL?

00:03:43
Speaker 3: Everything should run away from the NFL. And it's not just about the TV ratings and it's not even just about the attention economy and all this stuff, Like the NFL runs like America, and I don't think people really understand that, like the story. I've told this before, but during some of the scandals, remember like a decade ago, when it looked like people were saying, what's the future of the NFL, like the great rice stuff and all that, and my editors of the journal were, like the WALLCA Journal were like, hey, can you do a story what would happen if like the NFL stopped being the behemoth it was? And so I called around and people were just like people in like corporate America were like, this is not possible, Like this is this can't happen because if that happens, then the advertising industry collapses, and then bud Light collapses, and then like you know, Ford collapses and GMC can't sell any trucks, and like it would actually cause it would be like that the NFL collapse. The NFL is too big to fail. And so for me, like if you're if you're going up against that, that's any sport that's we saw what happen on Christmas Day with the NBA, Like any sport or any entity that tries to go like the Golden Globes went against Satday Football a couple of weeks ago, Like why are you trying to do it? You have no idea? Like I have a friend, we kind of text about this all the time. But it's like these things will just come and go against the NFL when it's super a lot of buzz, you know, a lot of but a lot of buzz for the World Series. I don't even know the World Series is happening anymore because it's going up again the NFL. And I would say even college football too, like bowl season runs up against it too much, and like I would find a way to never compete. I think golf starts too early, and I'm not I'm not locked in on Hawaii at all because of it. I'd love to gamble on Hawaii and be locked in, but it's just not.

00:05:14
Speaker 4: Possible, you know.

00:05:15
Speaker 1: I I would say that I somewhat agree. But the NFL expanding, you know what they're doing, it's you almost have to because it's now NFL's Monday Thursday. Uh, some Fridays now Saturday Sunday. Yeah, and then with then they decide to go, they add a week and now it runs against the PGA Tourist kickoff at CAPITALUA, right, Like all all these things, it makes it if you if you're afraid of something, they're just eventually going to come and take whatever's yours. Like I you know, soon we're gonna have football year round, you know, probably by the end of our lifetime.

00:05:57
Speaker 3: It's a spring. Golf is a spring in summer sport, and I think they can concentrate everything on those couple of months and then do something else, Like I don't hate the fact that the DP World Tour has a couple of marque events right around now and you can watch Rory and Tommy and stuff in the morning before football. I don't hate that. Maybe that's the identity they kind of carve out with golf in January or with February.

00:06:19
Speaker 1: Maybe what's your relationship with golf? Like how big of a fan are you? For people? You've been on the Shotgun start, you haven't been on the Friday I care. Yeah, you're a Friday fan, so you know you're in the boat.

00:06:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I'm not. I'm not a golf, and I just love I'm just really enthusiastic about Club TFE and the culture around it. I don't watch any golf and I'll play golf now. I came to golf vaguely late in life. I was about thirty was when I went to the Ringer moved to LA. Could play it all the time. I actually tried. I actually fell in love with it when I was living in New York City and that was just impossible. I went to Chelsea Piers a couple of times, pay thirty bucks for a bucket of balls. You don't really learn anything and then and then you're you're done. So when I moved to LA, it was one of the things I wanted to do, and I immediately caught the bug. And the bookshelf behind me. I went from like not really And I went to a couple of tournaments when I was a kid, the Disney Tournament, the Tavistock Cup in UH in Orlando. Do you know what that? You know? Yeah, We're like, you see Tiger there and you just watching more. Is the only reason to go is to see Tiger, right, And so I went to that a couple of times when I was going up in Orlando, and then I got so into it, Like this bookshelf behind me, I'm like Pete Die's memoir is there, Like I am just a full blown sicko. And I think part of it is that you have so much catching up to do when you come to it late in life, and you have so much improvement to do, and you're kind of bad. And I've I spent my first five years being pretty wildly and consistent in golf. That's that's everybody's wrobably consistent. But like I'm a little bit better and more consistent now. But like you're always competing against yourself and I think that's that's the cool thing. And and no two shots are like, no two rounds are like I'm in an area with a bunch of awesome golf courses and so I am as obsessed with golf as I've been with anything, uh in my sporting life.

00:08:08
Speaker 4: But if I can ask Kevin, like when you, let's say Friday of a Honda Classic, like, are you clicking through shot tracker because you have a little action?

00:08:17
Speaker 2: Are you?

00:08:17
Speaker 4: Are you just hardcore into the majors and you're watching all four days NonStop? Like what how do you consume professional golf real quick.

00:08:25
Speaker 1: It's the cognizant right and now, so I just want to I don't want to slipt up. It's not the Honda anymoreisance It'll always be the Honda to me.

00:08:33
Speaker 4: But go ahead.

00:08:35
Speaker 3: Uh, it's a combination of both. It's the only sport I reliably bet on, reason being and I fight sports. I also bet on, but that's just more inconsistent. And maybe maybe have three events a year where you bet on that I've not been on football. The line I've always said is that I know how upset I am when Deandrew Schaffley missus a putt or Scottie Shaffer doesn't get it together. I know, like how just viscerally angry I am at those folks, and the idea that like like Levante David would be that guy he like missed a tackle and then cost me money and then like two days later, I have to go in the locker room and be like, Hi, Levante, I'm gonna do my job now. Like I'm just not mature enough for that. So I keep football away from the gambling part of it. I love different combinations of bets. I love diving into the specifics solve and figuring out what matters Like I've always been obsessed going back to when I was in the WSJA with those stories where I kind of learned how to write, like why do people win and lose? Like what's what is it? Because it's some golf is such a cocktail of things where it's like, all right, well, obviously ball striking, approach, shots, most important thing filtered by that, But then it's not how much bad punting can you get away with? How bad can you be around the greens? But then there's the mental part of it. What rud are they in? Like I love I love different golf books, understanding just the mentality of these guys. And so to answer your question, like it's I sit on ESPN Plus and I watch as much as I can. I actually like the featured groups more than the big old broadcast. Reason being is like when I was watching last Week at the Century, where it's like I just want to understand what this courses and it's a beautiful course and you see And what I actually like is like seeing different shots from you if you're on a whole feed, you know, whatever you would call it, and seeing different different guys take the same shot, or you just see one group go through eighteen holes, like you understand it a lot more where it's so much so disconnected. If you're just watching the network feed and you're saying, let's go to three, let's go to nine, let's go to twelve. I want to understand why these guys are playing well. And I also think, like I think this probably and you guys do such a great job at this. There's very rarely a sense of place in golf broadcasts. And what I mean by that is like, and some of the graphics we've seen, and Andy, you've talked about this over the past couple of weeks, some of the graphics we've seen have gotten a lot better at that. Like I think about something like F one, where they do such a good job at the beginning of the race, being like this is the track, the reason, and then they'll do a little highlights and they'll say this corner here has had these five incidents, and you need to know about these five incidents. And for me, I always think like, all right, if we're going to show one at at at the century, just show me that what that looks like, what is that? What's the difference between somebody who won this event. Yeah, what's the difference between somebody who won that event how they played that hole and somebody who literally shot an eight and removed themselves. Like, what is the difference? Show me with video, show me with that stuff. And so that's why I kind of like to do the a la carte thing when I'm watching golf, is because I want to figure out what that looks like.

00:11:42
Speaker 1: It's a great point because I feel like one of the things that happens with golf is you watch the leaders. You're watching the players that are playing abnormally better, like better than their mean right, and they very rarely are getting in trouble. And one of the things that never happens is like you see the great shots from a hole, but you never see like what the defense of the hole is. You know, it's you know, it seems like it's kind of like especially with PGA Tour events and some of the courses you know, frankly like just don't have like the big features that could see it. But like seeing a front pin and somebody spinning off and rolling forty feet back, it's like this is you know, this is what can happen here. They never lay out like the bad stuff. You only see the oh this guy hit it to fifteen feet, And I think that's obviously something that the tour kind of grapples with. I think it's something you said that I found really interesting about how you cover football, and like you know, from the gambling thing, I think just in general in media, being a fan, you lose your fandom a little bit when you're in media because like you're covering it, right, Like I couldn't imagine if I covered the NFL. I can't maintain being a Bears fan because it being a Bears fan makes me irrational, right, Like you know, I wouldn't be able to cover.

00:12:55
Speaker 3: That's specific to being a Bears fan. If you were a fan of another team, I think maybe it would be easier for you. But you're watching Jordan Love be the third consecutive star quarterback for the Packers in your lifetime, and you have to have some degree of cope.

00:13:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So hey, let's get into it. Since we we've got you here. It is Monday, you got games coming up, I mean, this is your You're battling through the NFL, the Super Wildcard weekend here, Super.

00:13:20
Speaker 3: Wild Card Monday, there's a game in a couple hours, I.

00:13:23
Speaker 1: Know, two games on Mlkday. It's pretty well.

00:13:27
Speaker 3: That's and then like again, how do you bet a weather game like that? By the way, like one of the things I like about golf is that the betting is the the betting is the sport. Are they making the cut or they're not making the cut? Are they are they gonna top ten? Are they not gonna be top ten? Like that? That to me is one is a one to one translation football, it's all overs and like point spreads and like you can win without winning. So that's that's all. When I look at games like that, I'm just like, how how do you gamble on football?

00:13:50
Speaker 2: That's impossible?

00:13:52
Speaker 1: All right. So the premise of this exercise that we've we've created for you, we asked you to do homework. Unlike some of our other guests, you obliged, you're happy to do the homework. The the premise is PGA Tour Player Pro two and any any GOLDLF golfer I have.

00:14:10
Speaker 3: I have one one live guy I think on the list.

00:14:14
Speaker 1: So pro golf. It's you know, weird having to say that pro Golf to NFL franchise I'm not gonna lie I cheated. I've got some some non some non NFL franchises. I've got some quarter I've got I went down the quarterback route because I you know, I don't know, I was having trouble like separating the full history of a franchise with the with the with the player that might only have been on tour for three years. So I cheated. But I think it'll add some diversity in our picks in everything. So so anyways, uh, let's go. Let's just go one by one, We'll go down around the horn, just similar to the TV show that you contribute on, Kevin, Who's your first Who's your first pick?

00:14:58
Speaker 3: All right? So for the NFL, this this era just ended, but it is still It has not been replaced by a new era, so it is still ongoing. In my book, the Seahawks established a stab. Well I've got both those teams on my list, but I'm gonna start here. Established a baseline of dominance over a decade ago, maybe underachieved relative to the talent that was suggested around then, complete chaos from one event to the next, one play to the next, one shot to the next. The Pete Carroll era Seahawks are mister Jordan Speed. Yep. And I just don't think and I think that. I mean, if you were I here's the way I look at it. How many Jordan's the situations that Jordan Speth is in. If you took her away the name and you said, this is what's happening to a golfer, you'd say, oh, yeah, no, no, no, no, this is Jordan Speed. We're talking about Jordan Speed here, the mystery golfer, Jordan Speed. I feel like the Seahawks when you have these games and you say, who played that on side kick game against the Packers, who played that six to sixth game where everybody kept missing kicks but it was great defense against the Cardinals. If you just took the name away, go that's a Seahawks game. And I think it's one to one. No one has embraced and thrived in chaos more. I think that's the most important thing is that the Seahawks thrive in chaos and they like it and they understand that. They understand clutch is a real thing and that you can win. Like you saw the video with Pete Carroll where he's like, you can only win the game in the fourth quarter, can't win in the first can't win which not even true. Like Andy Reid is obsessed with winning the game at halftime because statistically then you win the game overall. But Pete Carroll wants to win in the fourth quarter. And I just see a one to one comparison between the two things.

00:16:46
Speaker 4: It's like your tweet that there's never been a normal Seahawks game. There's never really been a normal Jordan's Speeth round. So I like that take a lot that's not on my list.

00:16:54
Speaker 3: But that also, you can't you cannot, no matter what Jordan Speeth does off the tee, you cannot say, well this, you go write this whole off same thing with this fus, the same thing with the Seahawks.

00:17:06
Speaker 1: That's somebody I forget who tweeted this. Somebody it might have been Claire Rodgers. I'm not sure I've apologized to whoever it was. I apologize to Claire Rodgers if she didn't tweet this. But somebody tweeted like just an unnamed screenshot of two hundred and eighty four yards to unknown who is this player? And everybody was like George's feet and it's like, yeah, the Seahawks. Anything could happen, and it's like, let me tell you, if you said something really crazy happened in the NFL, can you guess what team it was, It'd probably be the Seahawks.

00:17:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think part of it is the game Speef wants to play, the talent that he has relative to the rest of the field, all that stuff, and just again the fact that I think when we're looking back on it, we're saying he probably should have won a little.

00:17:53
Speaker 4: Bit more fair enough. All right, I'll go with my number one. I think this is my favorite. One team that physically imposing, has all the traits you know they can win, but the wounds always feel self inflicted. I'm going with the Buffalo Bills are Rory McElroy where, oh wow. I think there's the arm talent, there's the physicality, there's the speed. With Josh Allen, we know he can make all the throws. But I feel like if Rory just knew when to check it down and when to slide in week five instead of go flying through the air, we'd have a little more confidence in him to win a major championship. So I think the Rory Josh Allen comparison is strong Andy, Kevin, how do we feel about that?

00:18:36
Speaker 1: Rory noted Bills fan Also, yeah, one of the most famous Bills fans in existence. I think you throw that in too.

00:18:43
Speaker 4: There's no doubt he can win, right, we know? Yeah, obviously, but do we actually if you felt confident about the limiting the self inflicted wounds, then I think you'd pick him more often.

00:18:53
Speaker 3: Kevin, Wow, Okay, couple things. Number One, I actually have made this comparison before. This is just between the lines. I've made a comparison between Mickelson and Josh Allen. Reason being is that Mickelson has said many times that the object of golf is to do cool things and that if you can do this wild shot and if you have the opportunity to do it, you're just gonna do it right, and it gets him in trouble and with Josh Allen. It is something I've talked with Josh Allen about before, where I'll be like, all right, you know, the team wants you to change your style play, be a little more conservative. But he's like, well, okay, but like I can't change who I am, Like I he basically he has the opportunity with his arm talent that you just reference to do the coolest stuff in the world. You try being boring with that, right, same thing with Phil. I think Rory is an excellent comp. My Rory comp, I'm sorry to say, is the Dallas Cowboys.

00:19:43
Speaker 4: Oh wow, what consistently good.

00:19:50
Speaker 3: Consistently good the headline in whatever big event he is. Everybody's watching Rory on day one of the majors. Every single person is watching Rory on day one of the major better than he gets. Listen. By the way, the Cowboys won twelve straight game, twelve games for three straight years, like we cannot just because.

00:20:10
Speaker 1: This is different Cowboys on this is disrespectful.

00:20:13
Speaker 3: What the hell they make the playoffs every single year.

00:20:17
Speaker 4: I want I want Andy to get to some of his I have the Cowboys in here. I have the Cowboys as Xander Shaftley, and I think it's on paper, get it really good regular season team, bunch of tights, bunch of consistency, But you never really believe that he's on the short list to get it done. In the same way, I don't really trust Dak in a big playoff game like Xander's been relevant a couple of times. He's had a chance to win, but I don't fully believe it really good on paper, well built, well rounded. I think it may be comparing to Rory. Is a little disrespectful to Rory, But I'm not that far apart from you.

00:20:55
Speaker 3: How long you go back? Okay, that's instant.

00:20:58
Speaker 1: Basically the same sailor energy, same same energy. Like they're gonna lure you in with a few wins, like can't lay will make a run in the FedEx Cup playoffs and you're like, oh, this is the year, Like, look, they're a great fit for He's a great fit. There's no reason why Patrick Cantlay isn't gonna win the Masters or the Open Championship or the US Open. Look, he's good at everything. Look at the Cowboys. Remember at the beginning of the year, the Cowboys, they were like, this is the greatest defense ever and then they got absolutely torched by the Packers, Like completely torched.

00:21:29
Speaker 3: But I pick the Super Bowl. Yes, at the beginning of the season.

00:21:33
Speaker 1: Well, this is this is how you can talk yourself into Patrick. You always can talk yourself into Patrick Cantlay in a major and then it's like, oh, Patrick Cantley's fifteen shots back on on Saturday afternoon.

00:21:46
Speaker 4: Is any team, Is any team more of a T twelve at a major than the Cowboys?

00:21:52
Speaker 3: No, No, they're like T six. They're better than They're better than we give them credit for twelve.

00:21:57
Speaker 1: That's this is recency. But I can't get to T six after yesterday.

00:22:04
Speaker 3: They So the reason you get you make the playoffs every year and don't go farther is because and this is a football only take, it's not a Rory take. You either have talent and no coaching, or coaching and no talent like that's the only explanation for getting that far and never progressing beyond it. Having said that, their roster talent is such that they are T six every single year. T six no, no, no higher, no lower. That's the Cowboys.

00:22:29
Speaker 2: Thick.

00:22:30
Speaker 3: I think you guys are being disrespectful of the Dallas Cowboys. That's my take. You guys thought I was being disrespectful to Rory.

00:22:37
Speaker 1: Can't.

00:22:37
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't compare him to like the Cardinals.

00:22:41
Speaker 1: We just listed the active the players the two most top ten most weeks of the top ten on the OWGR without a major active players.

00:22:52
Speaker 3: It depends on how far you go back the Cowboys had some of the biggest success on the planet in our lifetimes.

00:22:58
Speaker 1: Andy, this is why I struggled with the franchise, the strict franchise. But you want you're ready for my first one here, all right? Both of these longevity, longevity relevance that at the top of the game in my lifetime, just like lots of highs, very few lows. But you know, at the end of the day, you look at it and you're like, God, how did they only win one? One major one NFL championship? You know, despite all this greatness, you know franchise quarterbacks Adam Scott is the Green Bay Packers. Wow, you know the refs. The refs helped the Packers out. The long putter helped Adam Scott out.

00:23:40
Speaker 3: Jesus, I will say it is rich for a Bears fan to talk to to just reduce the Packers to only having won one Super Bowl despite the fact they're consistently the best team of the division. They're working on their currently in the playoffs, they're working on their third straight quarterback And in our lifetime, I've never seen I was not watching football when they had the Magic Man before Brett forv So in my lifetime, I've only seen good Packers football. I think I think you're being a little disrespectful the greenmy Packers.

00:24:11
Speaker 1: I think Adam Scott from effectively like two thousand and four till now, like in golf terms, has been like a first twenty names and a major player, and twenty is like the low end, right, and this is like kind of more recent than than but like he was a first page favorite at major championships for a good fifteen years. Like no, like the he the guy has like ultimate floor. We haven't even gotten into, like the you know, Adam Scott's like the darling of of of golf because of his looks and his grandia. I'm not gonna go there. I don't like the Packers. I'm not going to use that at all. But the Packers have always been the eye of a merit of American football. Like, oh, look at the Packers, small market team that is. You know, everybody loves the Packers, except for Bears fans in general.

00:25:06
Speaker 3: You know.

00:25:07
Speaker 1: Anyways, Adam Scott is the Packers. I don't think I am. I think this is probably the nicest I could have gone Sergio Garcia and it could have just put him in there instead of the Packers only one title despite all this talent I gave him.

00:25:25
Speaker 3: I don't need you to spoil it yet. Is there a Bears.

00:25:27
Speaker 1: Comp on your list?

00:25:28
Speaker 3: Okay, I know I'm looking forward to it. I just I just didn't want you to get away from this without having a Bears comp on here.

00:25:35
Speaker 4: Kevin, you want to hit three?

00:25:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out where to go on this. I'm gonna go with the with the easy one. A guy whom records do not seem to count for like it just seems like he exists in a different, completely different plane. He serves as a baseline to show you how mediocre you are. There are a million, literally probably a couple of thousand tiny edges it require you to win football games, and he has all of those in golf, and this franchise had them for a period of twenty five years. Tiger Woods is New England Patriots, and it is it was obviously significantly more. Those two were signically more in tune, maybe five six years ago. But I think that when you look at just the floor, the floor of the Patriots for two decades was the AFC Championship game. They made the playoffs. They won double digit games every single year Bill Belichick was there and with Tom Brady on the roster, and even when they had matc Castle, they were still able to figure it out. The things that the Patriots were able to do very similar to Tiger Woods, where they would change with every innovation in the sport and also at the same time innovate the sport in different ways. If the Patriots had to change their style because the game was going in some way, they would do that, and then once that style became too popular, they would swear and create a new style. They the game is in their image, and so I think Patriots Tiger Wood's uh, same same entity.

00:27:09
Speaker 1: Some controversies too to flight Gate.

00:27:11
Speaker 3: I've not noticed, Yes, Mary's Supermodels, the very Yeah, I had a lot of a lot of headlines, a lot of a lot of people, a lot of arguments about about, uh, where the greatness comes from? Yeah, yeah, I like it well. And I also say that one of the things, and I've said this before, but like you get three beers in anybody in New England and they'll take credit for for the Patriot way, you know, the last twenty five years, and people you've never been heard of, right, will be like, well, you know, I was really the one who said we should bring in Wes Welker. And I think with Tiger it's like it's not the same because it's one person, but it's like there are a million thing ways you could say this is why Tiger's good, this is why Tiger's good, and we hear you know you've read in every book or whatever. But like if you were to sum up why Tiger Woods is good in one sentence, you couldn't do it like it.

00:28:00
Speaker 4: I didn't have a Tiger Woods comparison, so there's not a ton of overlap. I'm liking the variety here. I will say of the franchises, I kind of focused on like right now versus the history a little more. I think Kevin, you and Andy went a little more for history here. So with my next one, this is pretty focused on this year, but it works for the past few years too. I think the San Francisco forty nine ers are John Rahm where it's consistent, power, well rounded, it's down your throat, it's a long drive after a long drive down the middle, and no matter what major championship, you can always kind of pick John Rahm, And there's not a whole lot to nitpick there. If you think the forty nine ers are gonna win this year, who's gonna disagree with you? Even when they're forgotten a little bit or when they show maybe a little bit of weakness, if they're healthy, that's a great pick. I think the same is true of John Rahm. He was the third favorite going into the Masters last year, behind Scheffler and Rory. But a lot of smart people were still picking John Rahm knowing he's that championship caliber golfer. So, in my opinion, the power, the consistency forty nine ers are John Rohm.

00:29:05
Speaker 3: So let me get this straight. So you went with the recency. All you want to do is now, but there's no reference, Like the Niners didn't go and join the UFL. Yeah just in case, just in case you didn't know, they did have not joined the X the merged XFL USFL.

00:29:19
Speaker 4: You not yet, Like it's not perfect.

00:29:22
Speaker 1: The thing too, I think like living out here, the fans, you know rom fans are you know that forty nine ers are are are kind of They're a weird fan base. I gotta say, I think it's got to be something to do with like lifestyle out here outdoors. You know, like they care, if it seems like they care. If their team's really good, everybody's the Niners fan. If their team's not good, then nobody is. I feel like with Rom, he's consistently in it. But like you only hear from Brom fans when they win, Like you don't hear from Rom fans when he's you know, T twenty one.

00:29:58
Speaker 3: That's a good one. That's a good thought. Oh help me out.

00:30:01
Speaker 4: I wasn't even going there. Prisons.

00:30:04
Speaker 3: Local knowledge, that's called local knowledge.

00:30:07
Speaker 1: I walk up, I walk around, and there's forty nine er flags everywhere. It's like, what last year? You know what last year there weren't a lot of forty nine er flags. They all came down quick.

00:30:19
Speaker 3: They got pretty fever.

00:30:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I'm gonna now dive into my uh my players here. This is your your favorite stats boys, favorite player. You talk to one person, they say, oh, this guy is so overrated. You talk to, you know, another guy, they're gonna say, that's that's the best player on the PGA tour that nobody talks about. Justin Herbert is Cameron Young. You know, there's just eye popping talent drool, Like you look at the statistic fast statistics, It's like, oh my god, this guy, this guy is the future number one. This guy is the future best quarterback in the NFL. People could get rational about it. It makes some people angry, it makes some people, you know, happy. These are two polarizing people because of the embrace of the stats community.

00:31:11
Speaker 4: Man, what I love about it? And curious for your opinion, Kevin, I think the same type of person that tends to think Justin Herbert is good also thinks Cam Young is good, like, hey, it's not always just about winning. They're showing the traits like I think Justin Herbert is excellent, And the type of person that says well but he hasn't done it yet is the same kind of person that tends to discredit what cam Young has done so far. So I love the comparison.

00:31:33
Speaker 3: Who is Justin Herbert's excuse me, cam Young's TUA in this Like who's the other guy where it's like the non stats guys, You're like, no, this guy's the same age as sim and he's gonna be better. He's the future number one.

00:31:45
Speaker 4: I have one of those later, I don't want to spoil it?

00:31:48
Speaker 3: Okay, oh, okay, okay, it could be. I don't want I'm so excited about you guys list. I don't want to spoil it for anybody. I can't. I can't wait for it.

00:31:55
Speaker 1: We'll save it. We'll save it. I mean like, yeah, yeah, all right, we'll save it.

00:32:00
Speaker 4: Right.

00:32:01
Speaker 3: So can I speaking of to it? Can I give my Miami Dolphins let's go all right? Different vibes than anybody else, Mike McDaniel, It's just a different dude, unbelievable. As you said, offensive metrics with one flaw, that is, we're all waiting around. It's gotten better, but we're all waiting around for it to implode. Miami Dolphins are Victor Hoptlin.

00:32:25
Speaker 4: Oh you went a little different direction. I thought you were about to.

00:32:29
Speaker 3: Go what'd you What did you think I was gonna go with?

00:32:31
Speaker 4: I thought you were going to say a lot of speed. I thought you were going Bryson and I have that, Oh Dolphins, Bryson. But I like this.

00:32:39
Speaker 3: No, I don't I the Bryson thing. I don't Bryson is one of one, and I don't think Bryson's is. The Dolphins are not its obnoxious Bryson also not yes, yes, that's Brandt Brandon Staley, like defensive coordinator Brandon Staley. But also the other thing about about that is that Brandon Staley, the things he was talking about, he was basically saying he was starting a revolution with the most obvious crap in the world. And and so like like Brandon Sao was like, oh, I stopped the run without committing people to stop the run. Well, you also had Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey, right, so like what exactly were you doing? And the thing I always think about a lot is I wrote this piece about Bryson a couple of years ago, and I was talking about he was going to change golf or whatever, and uh and and Mark Titus replied to the tweet, He's like a good buddy, we've golf before. He's really easy. He's really long off the tea by the way. But but but Titus replied and just said, wow, I never thought to hit hit the piss out of the golf ball until Bryson started doing it. And it's like, oh, okay, yeah, so that's Brandon Staley for you anyway. No, I just think with McDaniel, first of all like different, Like we all remember the uh was the HELPLEM say, he just drives across the country listening to Joe Rogan and drinking Monster Energy again take the name off that heavy metal music. Yes, exactly, that's Mike McDaniel vibes. There's a so of underlying sarcasm and all of it. Different personality from those guys. And then again everything else seems perfect. And you know, I look at I look every week. I look at the the strokes gained stuff, and you look at ball striking, you look at all the things you like, and then you see a little red by around the greens and you say, what can he get away with? And again that's gotten better? But again same thing with the dolphins. They keep getting better, and we keep wondering what the holes in his game will reveal themselves to be. And so I think it's I frankly I think also by the way, Mike McDaniel's fashion choices very similar to Victor Howlin, where we don't really know where he's going from one week to the next. The other thing carpre pants he sees. Yeah.

00:34:43
Speaker 1: The other thing is that you watch a bit of press conference, right and you're like is that guy stoned. Can we like, you know, like both of them have that.

00:34:52
Speaker 3: I was leaving that one unsaid, I was letting that. I was letting the listener kind of connect the dots on that one.

00:34:58
Speaker 4: I like this, So I have a Victor Hobblin one is well, and we went a little different directions only because, as I said, I'm kind of focusing on the current state of the franchise, and I think Victor Hovelin's short game improvements have like they're legitimate to where he is Tier one contender. I have Victor Hoblind as the Baltimore Ravens, and some of my rationale is very analytically driven, smart approach to the sport. The Ravens have always been a smart front office, have always been forward thinking on those kinds of things in the same way that Victor Hoveland is. And I think with Lamar some of the issues and Kevin you can speak to this better than I can, but maybe some of the pocket presents a couple of years ago, weren't as sure if he could win, and now now like they are one of the favorites them in the forty nine ers. Same way that I think Victor Hovelin coming into twenty twenty four first ballot top couple names, you can pick him to win. So for me, Victor Hoblin's the Baltimore Ravens. Not that dissimilar though, Kevin, from your logic on comparing him to the Dolphins.

00:35:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, and somewhere between the Ravens and Hoveland were projecting out because there's no proof of concept on the absolute biggest stage. Right, we're projecting out and we're all in our head, we're going, oh, is this is gonna be another Tennessee twenty nineteen Again, like there's a lack of full trust that you can give them, which I think is true of the Dolphins. Again, Like I think part of it for me, and I think the difference in my thing against yours thing is like I think the Dolphins' gains were like really impressive and legitimate, but then like the best thing in the world for like Bears fans, and he's got this in his head, and like Jets fans are all clowning on the Dolphins because he lost the playoff game, and it's like, well, you guys aren't even in the playoffs. So like I am maybe thinking that the Cowboys and the Dolphins accomplishments this year were more impressive than maybe the casual NFL fan. But what McDaniel has done with TUA has been borderline miraculous.

00:36:54
Speaker 4: Fair enough, we're on the same page. I think what we would definitely agree on is the only thing left is to prove you can do it. Like Victor Hoven needs to win the super Bowl, win a major, and the Ravens need to win the super Bowl. Like that's the way.

00:37:06
Speaker 3: I think Dolphins need to win in cold weather. Somehow, for some reason, Helven can't do it. Helven can't go play in the Yeah, what's the coldest what's the coldest golf tournament?

00:37:17
Speaker 1: He might be good because of the Norway.

00:37:19
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, do it? I could be a Stutts do it?

00:37:23
Speaker 2: Do it?

00:37:24
Speaker 3: Do it? Win the National Open of Norway.

00:37:25
Speaker 1: I feel like the Ryder Cups usually the coldest, like you get it that late September somewhere northern and the US is uh, all right, I'll move on here. I'll go with go with mine. Another player comp but these are long careers, long careers.

00:37:42
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

00:37:44
Speaker 1: One one includes a really big contract. The other one includes really big endorsement. Dollars both of them. You know, one has major. You know, questions primetime? Can they win in prime time? Can they win on Monday Night football? You know these admired through yere. You know, statistically things look really good anyway. The other player, can he win a major? You know, is is he got too much hype for what he is? Ricky Fowler is Kirk Cousins.

00:38:11
Speaker 3: Wow?

00:38:13
Speaker 2: Whoa wow? Wow.

00:38:16
Speaker 3: Okay, let me I want to flesh this out. I want to flesh this out a little bit because one of the underlying things that defines the Kirk Cousin era is that coaches love him. Coaches are all like, I wish I had Kirk Cousin. That's everybody loves. That's what I'm saying, is Ricky the guy where like everybody who plays with him is just like, holy crap, look at this guy.

00:38:43
Speaker 1: Go everybody loves Ricky. Everyone loves Ricky, right, And it's like you could talk yourself into Ricky, but at the end of the day, you know, he's he's probably never gonna win a major. He had like, you know moments where like even so this year with Kirk Cousins, you're like, oh my God, like you know, the beginning of the year, you're like, this guy's playing at a different level than he's ever played before. But it all, you know, obviously this year it came down because of injury, but it always comes crashing.

00:39:13
Speaker 3: Down personality wise. So in the wonderful Omaha Productions documentary Quarterback, there's a part there where Cousins has like his little room and the the contractor put it on himself to install without asking anybody, install a shelf for his Lombardy, which has obviously not come yet. And it's like a weird sort of aspirational thing. If there was a golfer who had a empty trophy case in his house, he shows off waiting for a major. Is it Ricky Fowler? So it's like you come in to Jupiter and you say and you go, oh yeah, this is this is my nice living room whatever, and then here's my major trophy case. It's empty, Like I is that Ricky or is that somebody else?

00:39:58
Speaker 1: I could see Jason Day. I guess he has a major, but like that could be like Jason Day vibes right, I'm just scrolling through here. I can't think of anybody else, Like I could see Phil having like that and having spots for like twelve of them and only you know, only having six in there, Like that's like stuff that Phil bites you.

00:40:19
Speaker 4: Do we have Do we have a current Phil comp for player of just for NFL franchise anything Like?

00:40:26
Speaker 3: I just feel like it's taking I mean, there's a player out there. Honest, Aaron Rodgers placed him on McAfee. I was gonna say he replaced on McAfee.

00:40:33
Speaker 4: The other Aaron Rodgers is not a crazy comparison.

00:40:36
Speaker 3: Not a crazy comparison, I think.

00:40:38
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the one. I mean, it's it has to be Aaron Rodgers, right.

00:40:44
Speaker 3: Yes, I don't think there's anything, especially if.

00:40:47
Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers next year has like a triumphant return and he's like the MVP of the league, and it's like that would be Aaron Rodgers kiwa right where he comes back like out of nowhere. It's like everybody's counting out and I'm back right.

00:41:02
Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, it's perfect.

00:41:04
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, So did we each have one left?

00:41:07
Speaker 2: I do?

00:41:08
Speaker 1: I got one letter rip Kevin.

00:41:11
Speaker 3: All Right, winning is a skill. They know how to do it consistently. They had the fundamentals of the game down and when things. And the reason I think you win major championships is that you know, sort of mentality wise, we're talking about earlier how to win when everybody's playing their best. To me, that's the Philadelphia Eagles. To me, that's Brooks Kopka. Ooh. I just feel like the Eagles know their identity and even if you think they don't, they do. It's always strong along the lines, and like it's funny because, like I think, Brooks is like the closest you can get to a sports alpha, right, And I think a lot of times I was in a I was doing it after they won the Super Bowl is doing a story with the Eagles, and I was talking to one of their guys and I was like, you know, you guys went front and fourth down and you got all these guys on one of year contracts, and you the way you draft and all this stuff. And the guy was like, would you shut out The reason we won the Super Bowl is because we were strong on the offensive and defensive lines. Everything else was a bonus. And I kind of think with Brooks Kopka, like we know why he wins, and I think we have all sorts of different theories about the way he plays and the way he wants to manage his career and injuries and all this stuff. But when he is when he needs to play as best he does, and I think that that's that's that's the Philly experience. That's a brooks kept the experience. Notwithstanding, I know Joseph wants to do with the current Eagles. The Eagles are about to get their ask kit tight or next week we'll figure it out this episode of my cope after they won by twenty points, but like at some point they're going to get their ass kick this January. So let's put literal recency of bias aside. It's it's a very similar franchise.

00:42:44
Speaker 4: I guess on that. So brooks Keptka if you think about his majors wins to regular season wins, like he's gotten all time ratio there didn't hasn't won a lot of the smaller tournaments in your mind, is the correct comparison they're the Eagles because I like the comp or like I was just thinking that I'm manning giants, like yeah, that's right, branchise that has really out kicked on just winning super Bowls versus regular season success.

00:43:10
Speaker 3: So I understand that, but they've won. You know, you're going back a little bit on on the Giants. The current Giants are are not. If the current Giants right player, they would be on the they would not be on the they would not the tour card, they would not currently have their tour card. They would not they would be an a bunch of Monday qualifiers. And so I think, like, they win playoff games. Did you see the stat of the day, Like Nick Foles has more playoff wins than Romo and Deck combined. Like they they they they win playoff games. And to me, like the super Bowl, it's so hard because I was going through the Super Bowl winners and it's like, I don't think anybody is Mahomes. I don't. I don't think anybody is the Chiefs. I think it's there's an impossible standard in golf. I think maybe twenty years ago you could make the Tiger Cup. Then the Tiger is the Patriots, right, And so it's really hard for me, Like we did this a couple of years ago over text, being like who's the Jimmy Walker of quarterbacks? And I don't. I think the answer is maybe Nick Foles. I don't know, But like super Bowls to majors or not cannot be one to one because there's four majors per year and one super Bowl. And in football, the same teams win the super Bowl over and over and over again. So for me, you have to use playoff wins and that kind of success is a proxy. And this is a team that makes super Bowls, won one with Nick Foles, that win that gets to Nancy Title games, divisional round of playoffs, consistent success when you need to have consistent success.

00:44:35
Speaker 4: I like it all right, I'll bring it home with my last one little This is not a crowd pleaser. This is looking for enemies in two different directions.

00:44:43
Speaker 3: Here so beautiful. This is our social clip. Turn the TikTok camera on.

00:44:47
Speaker 4: I'm going and this, yeah, I'm going. A team that is easy to cheer for, legitimately solid. If anyone calls them a fraud, they're wrong. They're legitimately good. Don't believe they're gonna win the super Bowl. Don't believe they're gonna win a major. I was a little wrong about this team too. I thought they're gonna be pretty a little bit more average this year. That legitimately good, not a fraud, but don't really believe they're gonna get it done at the highest level.

00:45:13
Speaker 3: I have.

00:45:13
Speaker 4: The Detroit Lions are Tom Kim and.

00:45:16
Speaker 1: I had some ideas about Tom Kim. I almost put stuff that's similar together. Very good Jared Goff and Tom can win, can win the Window Championship despite making a big number on the opening nine.

00:45:32
Speaker 4: If you wanted Augusta, I'd be very surprised. Lack some of the power. The Lions don't have much of a secondary. I'm happy for them. I respect both of what they bring to the table, but that is my comparison. And is there a sixty Yeah, I was gonna say, is there a season ticket holder's been watching Tom Kim for sixty six years? Like the guy last night, just like a die hard the kim heads have been waiting for a year? Is for this just emotional release of a Kim win. It doesn't, It doesn't work.

00:46:05
Speaker 3: I love that. No, No, I I completely see where you're coming from. I just think the funny thing is from now is like the Lions are seen as like this avatar of like finally we're we're getting rewarded with something, and then you hit us with Tom Kim. That's what I love. That's my love about what's going on here, because we're all coming at it from three different perspectives and he's not even playing the team games.

00:46:24
Speaker 4: Quarterbacks.

00:46:25
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I guess I just said, you know, I've just thrown out quarterbacks. I'll throw you another quarterback, and my last one is all Bear centric. Okay, I just I had trouble with the Bears because it was hard. It was actually hard to think about somebody some of golfer that is so dysfunctional. I mean, so you talk about dysfunction as an organization, right, you talk about an organization that in a year had like the defensive corner here just leave from you know, rumors were like.

00:47:00
Speaker 3: And then no one figured out what happened, but.

00:47:04
Speaker 1: No one has a clue. No one has a clue. The defensive coordinator leaves, the runnings back coach gets dismissed because of an hr HR problem, Like you know, like how serious that probably has to be for a guy to be fired.

00:47:22
Speaker 3: I have no idea where this is headed.

00:47:24
Speaker 4: I think I know of it.

00:47:25
Speaker 1: So then you have then they bring them back, right, they've had they've had one winning one triumph that they're still dining off of in the in the in the whole, like the City the Bear, the city of Chicago still talks about the eighty five Bears that happened before I was born. I turned thirty eight this year. That is still like one of the hallmark moments of the city, when most people that live in the city don't even weren't even born for it. But anyways, there's this this ineptitude. I think just in general, the Bears are the PGA Tour.

00:48:04
Speaker 4: Complete with the HR violation.

00:48:09
Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out what golfer you're gonna compare with you.

00:48:12
Speaker 1: There's no golfer that you could even get to the waundering list. The things over the course have failed to adopt any modern football principles. Have a coach that's trouting out like they had this great success as a defense when they had Vic Fangio, like a new age NFL defense, and then a couple of years later they go back to the cover two. It's like they're trotting out this antiquated system and they keep their coach. Nobody else in the right mind, after all the things that happened this year would keep their head coach with the greatest crop of head coaching candidate had to apologize for being a Bears fan.

00:48:49
Speaker 3: Andy, I'd say, the one thing that's very similar in that regard, obviously it's a great cop. The one thing it's very similar is I've heard people say like, you should never be allowed to say because everybody says it. Kevin Warren is now saying it. Ted Phillips said it before that, the mccaskeys have said it. We want to play Chicago Bears football. You should not everything you've done, don't do it anymore. Don't do anything that you used to do going forward. That's my advice to you guys. I'm both on both ends of that comp there. It's just let's just start anew.

00:49:23
Speaker 1: I you know a good thing. The Bears have a guy working eighteen hour days, Kevin Warren. You know, That's all I can say. My other Bear's comp is justin fields is Cam Davis. You know, really flashy, hye popping, hye popping physical traits, you know, hits. It long the Irons when they're cooking, like everything when it's going right, looks great. But then there's just these performances where you're like flummoxed, where you're like wait, a second, what's going on. Maybe it's just he hasn't been put in the right situation. Maybe it's the coaching around him. Maybe somebody hasn't gotten everything out of cam Davis they needs to. Maybe you know, the Justin Fields. But anyways, it's always going to leave you wanting more.

00:50:09
Speaker 4: Similar to have noted Cam Davis, Anthony Richardson just very physically imposing, projectable. But Anthony Richardson doesn't have any of the hiccups that that Cam Davis might have. So I think your comparison might be better now.

00:50:21
Speaker 3: The Cam Davis one is good because also, like there's this element of the Justin Field thing is unique because there's a bunch of excuses that are built up around him, even though every a bunch of young quarterbacks seem to be having tons of success without the things that are the Bears fans say are prerequisite to having success. So it's a little it's it's again, it's hard. That part is hard to come to a golfer, but I think I completely agree. Like the flashing is the fact that he should every time he swings the club. It couldn't look like the best thing you've ever seen. I think That's that's the point of Fields is like anytime he takes a snap, you might see something you've never seen a football field by the way that goes in any direction I.

00:50:59
Speaker 1: Mean about he makes it. You always see the same plays on the tweets that are like you can't you can't get rid of this guy built around him. Like it's always the play where he like shrucks off two defensive linemen and makes a throw, and they never show like him just holding onto the ball and getting him right, like and just hold. It's like a clean pocket. He's got plenty of time. And then he gets popped and it's like and then you see the view from behind him and it's like three wide open receivers. Right.

00:51:29
Speaker 3: Can I make a wild kind of broad cop between football players and young golfers because I've always thought that. So you've heard this criticism of young golfers. They've come up in the track man era. They're not used to real misses. There's no artistry in it because they the the drivers are so forgetting and all that stuff. I feel like the quarterbacks you mentioned justin Fields holding onto the ball too long. Every young quarterback hangs onto the ball for so long now because they came up in a game in which you do not get punished for that, because it used to be if you came up and you held onto the ball too long and you were nineteen ninety three in high school ball, you would be murdered. You would be on crutches for your entire career because some five star you know from from South Florida would would play you in the state championship game and you rip your head off college the same way, pro the same way. So these guys were just getting the ball out of their hands over and over and over again. Now with these rules, you can come up and you have the spread, you just you know, you can just hold the ball, run around a little bit. These quarterbacks are coming in now, whether that's Justin Field's, Drake may is another one hold on the ball forever, Caleb Williams hold them all for Caleb. But it's a little bit different, like these guys are comfortable. It's being like, yeah, I'll figure that out. I'm gonna figure that out, and just you know, just stand back here for six seconds. Because they're not used to gatting the crap knocked out of them. So it's a very similar thing where I think, to quote Michael Levan, we're losing recipes a little bit because I think that there's it's just a different game for the young guys as compared to the two guys who are maybe thirty eight years old.

00:52:59
Speaker 4: Simulator quarterbacks track Man.

00:53:04
Speaker 3: Brack Man era of quarterbacks.

00:53:06
Speaker 1: Ah, this is perfect take to end it with. Kevin, Thank you so much for coming on. Everybody should be listening to your show, especially now. It's the p It's the god the PGA Tour, playoffs, the NFL playoffs, the NFL.

00:53:21
Speaker 3: It's just that the Hawaii Swing feels like the playoffs that you're confused a little bit.

00:53:26
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, it feels bigger than the FedEx Cup playoffs.

00:53:31
Speaker 4: Absolutely so does anything so does the Club Championship down the road.

00:53:36
Speaker 3: So events are we doing? Am I coming to one this year?

00:53:40
Speaker 1: Yeah? We got a bunch in your neck of the woods.

00:53:43
Speaker 3: I'm coming.

00:53:43
Speaker 1: You pick pick out the ones you want to come to. There's like three in New York, so Saint George, right, St.

00:53:49
Speaker 3: George, that one.

00:53:50
Speaker 1: You can take that. You could take the ferry over to Port Jefferson. You're in Brooklyn. You actually don't need take the ferry. That's how I got there.

00:54:00
Speaker 3: We're going I miss Rolling Green August.

00:54:03
Speaker 1: It will be a right in training camp season.

00:54:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I probably miss it then, but you know I'll come to another one.

00:54:09
Speaker 1: All right, Do you have anything else to plug it? This is football, This is football podcast, This.

00:54:14
Speaker 3: Is football in Omaha. You know we're fine around the horn. A bunch of ESPN stuff. I believe Joe Buck's coming on tomorrow and Kyle Long are coming on tomorrow, both I believe. Noted golf sickos. We had a Peyton Manning episode last week. We did not get to talk about golf. He's a golf cicico, so check it out. We're just we're just doing a parade of golf ciccos around here.

00:54:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, Josh Allen, Josh Allen's.

00:54:37
Speaker 3: A golf cicco. He played Cypress with Jim Nance and he told me that. I said, have you read the match? And he said, mister Nance gave me the book to read up on before I played Cypress with him, and so there you go. And then he said that Jim Nance at Cypress just had He said it was amazing, Josh Allen, because it was like every whole Nance had had like the whole history ready to rock, and he liked that.

00:55:04
Speaker 1: I bet Nance would be an excellent host. You know, I don't know him, but he just seems like he would be a great host.

00:55:10
Speaker 3: He plays golf with all those guys. He told me that Justin Herbert came in like a really crappy car with a bunch of his buddies, and he realized he was just just a regular dude. I don't know if they played Cyprus or pebble with Justin, but plays all those guys.

00:55:23
Speaker 1: That's how somebody might feel about Cameron Young too, you know.

00:55:27
Speaker 4: All right, thanks Kevin.

00:55:35
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00:57:42
Speaker 2: You know, it's always tough to leave Hawaii, but three kids at home had to get home. You know, I can't be gone for two straight weeks. It's hard to start the year with two straight weeks on the road as well, you know, kind of takes you out of the rhythm of getting the year started, getting all your ducks in a row. For twenty twenty four, was happy to have Kevin Price over there. You know, that's the week that the the Corn Fairy Tour grads the rookie's debut. And there's no one that I think knows those guys better than Kevin Price as well, So for all his hard work, it felt like a fitting reward and also just he felt like the guy that should definitely be there.

00:58:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, some some of the some of the rookies. But anyways, let's uh, let's talk about the start of the year. I'd love you know, we're down done with Hawaii. What are what are some big takeaways that you have for the from the start?

00:58:25
Speaker 2: I think two good you know, redemption stories. You know, Chris Kirk, Grayson Murray both. I think you know in a game that we often talk about being a young man's game, and it really is that, you know, Kirk at thirty eight playing some of the best golf of his life after what he went through. Grayson Murray. You know, these are are maybe self inflicted things for for Grayson especially, But at the same time, I think we all like redemption stories. We all like the idea of renewal. It's why this time of year, you know, New Year's resolutions. We all believe in change and think people can change. And I think both those guys proved it, and I think both were really open that they hope to inspire others who might be struggling with the same stuff of not only alcohol use, but anxiety depression, which I think are things that afflict all of us at times to different degrees. They're universal. So you know, I like both those stories. I know on social media, they're polarizing. I know some people don't buy it. Some people think that, you know, Grayson should have to you know, atone for what he's done in the past, or do more time that he can't just have a clean slate. But I like those stories. I think we all think and hope that we can change, and they both proved it.

00:59:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, obviously it's a Grayson's a polarizing figure, but I think at the you know, brass tacks of it. He's always been an uber talented player. Anybody you know, I remember watching him before any of the before you do really anything about it. I watched him, man. I was thinking about this yesterday, like seven years ago in Columbus at a corn ferry event. I was, you know, I came away. I was I was meaning to dig up some of the writing, but I came away. I mean, this guy's going to be a top twenty five player. Hits it long, wedges it well, puts it well, like you know, he's got all the all the requisite skills. It's just been a matter of getting out of your way. And I think that's like one of the you know, interesting aspects of any professional sport, right. I mean, so much of this is that you think about yourself in your in your twenties, you know, and it's getting the most out of yourself at an age where very few people are actually getting the most out of themselves, right. And I think that's the tricky thing about sports, right. And I think we've seen in recent years with with social media, whether however you feel about social media, but I think just the general nature of athletes, you know, they they have had been forced to be so much more disciplined, and you know, so much like the social media aspect of being a professional athlete is it's got to be terrifying, right, Like any misstep anywhere you go in the world can be die commented easily with a smartphone. And I'm not saying this about I'm not trying to be an apologist for Grayson Murray, but what I what I am saying is that there's never been an era that's harder to be a professional athlete than right now in terms of your actions and things that you say, things that you feel being held to the fire and you know, Grayson, we'll see where this goes from here. We'll see, you know, hopefully for him personally that he can he can be, he can continue you know, to you know, be on the path that he's on with this golf game and personal life. And you know, if he if he does, I think that like there is like a really good golfer there.

01:01:40
Speaker 2: Totally even look at the body. I mean, if you follow Grayson's career, I mean the guy just physically who was on the eighteenth green there is completely different. He's obviously in much better shape. I mean we touched on the spiritual, the emotional aspects as well, but even just physically, he has to be down, you know, twenty thirty pounds and looks leaner and more muscular. So physically as well, he's seen the benefits. And yeah, like you said, I mean, he's one of those guys that everyone was tweeting yesterday when they weren't talking about the redemption side of it. The you know, when he was a kid, his ball sounded different and that sort of stuff, and all that he had done and making a corn ferry tour cut when he was sixteen and that kind of stuff. So potentially a very exciting prospect if, like you said, he continues down this path.

01:02:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, Sean, I mean I don't think it's unrealistic. He's in the Masters now, are we going to be talking about him in contention? Aut Augusta.

01:02:28
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. And I mean this is maybe an aggressive comp because of what Wyndham did last year, but I think there's some parallel with Wyndham Clark of a guy again uber talented, you know, ball sounds different, but really struggled with temper anger on the golf course and once he kind of really tackled that and also took some ownership of his game for him. It also involved you know, getting rid of all his swing instructors and kind of working it on his own. But that was a guy who in his own way tackled his demons, let's say, and that allowed the physical talent to shine through. I'm not saying that Grayson's going to win a major this year, but similar thing of a guy super talented, had to go through some stuff, some maturing, some you know, emotional control and regulation, and once he did it allowed the physical talents to come out.

01:03:14
Speaker 1: I think that you know that that finish too is just symbolic of I mean, PGA Tour, how winning a PGA Tour event, how difficult it is, right, Like Keegan Bradley has done basically everything all all day, well, you know, all week, and it comes down to eighteen, and eighteen is a ceremonial part five, Right, It's it's really a long part four for for these guys. And in order to get it done it seems simple. But with the wind off the left, hitting that fairway with the dog like left is just extraordinarily difficult and one misstep and you one mediocre wedge and you are in, you know, a playoff, a three for you know, three for one playoff and you know you just see you know, the mark for AerR And I think like with Grayson getting up and down, it was, I mean a great, great way to finish. And I think like if you were if this was any other player, I think of like JT with Phil in Mexico a few years ago, Like, if this is any other player, there's just so much hoopla around that up and down and in the pressure that was overcome there, not to mention the putt, but with Keegan, you know, it's like God like you do all this stuff right, and it's just you know, you hit one bad t shot and there it is, right.

01:04:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, same thing we saw in Europe as well, even with Rory takes a one shot lead to the last hole, drives in the water, loses to Tommy Fleetwood by one, you know, two shots swing. I think closing it out is always hard anytime you're approaching kind of whatever your goal is, whether it's making the cut or winning a tournament. You know, they always say if you're trying to make the cut, don't make that your goal, because you'll play towards that that goal, you know, sort of oversimplified, shoot for the moon, you'll get the stars maybe. But I think too it's some credit to Tom Doak and the work he's done there at that golf course. You can speak about this much more intelligently than I can. But eighteen, like a lot of the holes there really flat in front, easy to run it up. So even if guys did not hit that rope hook and ran it through the fairway, you still had a fairly easier shot for your second one because you could just hit a long iron fairwywood out of the rough and have a chance to run it up on the green. But you're not doing that anymore because really the right half that green is pretty dead, and it makes that shot so much harder because just the scooter, the stinger out of the rough that was available before the renovations really isn't there anymore.

01:05:32
Speaker 4: Sean Sean. One thing I wanted to get into. I think it's a huge story in professional golf right now is the change, the increase in the broomstick putting. And the most notable perhaps was Lucas Glover last year, who went from being a terrible putter throughout his career to instantly, seemingly instantly really turning it on finding something when he went to the broomstick wins a couple of times, was in contention for a Ryder Cup Captain's pick. It feels like we're at an all time high with broomstick putting. You got a batilla with one in the bag bent on. There's there's others in the field too, So curious you wrote a piece on this. Yeah, Zaladtorus is a good example. I think Aaron Wise went to it and was starting to see a little bit of success.

01:06:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was just in Casey Martin's old one.

01:06:18
Speaker 4: But yeah, curious, you know you wrote a little bit about this. What do you think is driving that change? Or people just putting their egos aside and trying it out, or we had an all time high and broomstick putting you think more guys are going to throw it in the bag. Where do you stand on all of this?

01:06:32
Speaker 2: I think we are You know, before Lucas winning back to back last year, I think see Wu had to be the most recent player or sorry, then you had Lucas last year, Then you had Sea Wu winning last year's Sony opened with the broomstick, and before that, I think was Adam Scott at the Genesis in twenty twenty, and I was trying to think of a player the last player not named Adam Scott to UH to win with a broomstick, And I think you're looking at like Tim Clark and Carl Petterson many years ago. So you don't see it very much. But the Century you had a broomstick in each of the last two groups with ben On and ox she Batiya. The Sony. Two of the three guys in the last group on Saturday had it with Carl Ywan and ben On again, you know, Oxha is only twenty one. Will's Alataurus is still in his twenties, And I think that's a big part of it is there's strengthened numbers a little bit. You never want to be the first guy to roll out with one. It's definitely still kind of looked at. In my piece, I made the comparison to kind of the granny shot for free throws in Basketball Love. Malcolm Gladwell made that comp in one of his podcasts about you know, Will Chamberlain one season twich the granny shot his you know, firing it from underhand between your legs, and his free throw percentage went up like ten percent, and he just ditched it a year later because he didn't like the way it looked. And Shaq was like, I will never I'd rather miss all my free throws and shoot at granny style. And I think the broomstick kind of is granny is a comp to the let's call it the granny shot. No offense. All the grandma's out there listening. But but I think for Lucas, when you're that age, you've been dealing with the yips for ten years, it's easier to make that switch. You're in your forties, guys probably expect you to do it. But even him, it took him ten years of the yips before he went to the broomstick, and he admitted that being stubborn was a big part of it. I think the bigger thing is the guys like Akshay and Zalatorus doing it like that takes, you know, swallowing something. As ben On said when I asked him about it, I asked why more guys are using it, and he goes, I think they're losing their egos. And because he said to use it, you have to admit I'm not a good putter and there is no really hope for me with the regular size, the regular length putter. So I think once you see a couple more guys using it, you're like, you know what, I can try it too. It's always hard to be the first guy. But now that there's like six or seven on tour and some of them are having success, I think you'll see more guys potentially follow.

01:08:50
Speaker 4: Yeah.

01:08:50
Speaker 1: I mean it's uh. You see guys in other sports, do you know, And we see it in professional golf. We see people undergo you know, transformations to gain speed, you know, they like, look at what's happened with like the speed sticks and the speed training on tour forever it was taboo. Oh you can't try and you know, gain speed, you're gonna hurt your you know, your your fundamentals, your your swing is going to change and it's impossible and stupid to chase chase speed right and that change right and now you know, Lucas Glover seems to be the poster boy. Uh, I'm struggling with the right expression here, but like the person the change agent in a way to this.

01:09:33
Speaker 2: And Adam Scott for a lot of those like Seawou and ben On, it's Adam Scott for a lot of those guys.

01:09:39
Speaker 1: And you look at where uh, these guys were, Like you look at Akshay. Akshay was one hundred and eighty third out of one hundred and ninety three players in strokes game putting last year. Ben On was in the one forties, one forty four out of you know one. So these guys are you know, statistically very poor putters last year. You know, if you looked at you know, their charts, their stats charts, like it's very clear what's holding them back and I mean, it seems silly that it's taken this long for golf to uncut, you know, golfers to uncover this. But I think it speaks a little bit too. I mean, I think the tour is you know, you've heard you hear players talk about it. It's like, you know, the tour is kind of like a you know, a traveling like high school. It's like, you know, there's a stigma to doing these things. And maybe that's you know, the big thing here, right.

01:10:30
Speaker 2: The fact that it took Lucas ten years before he switched is like just mind boggling that someone didn't force him to use one. I mean, I can understand a year or two, but I mean ten years where it's literally the one thing holding you back, and it took him that long. I think just shows how hard that changes to make. And Oxhay talked to Lucas before he made the change, and I thought he gave him a really good piece of advice. He said, don't worry all those people who are judging you also want to be you, basically, and that Oxhay said that kind of gave him some of the like the strength to kind of go forward with that, which yeah, I mean talking back about social media. You know, you make a change with the broomstick, you know that on Twitter, people are gonna call you a cheater. They're gonna zoom into photos and accuse you of anchoring. They're gonna it's just a weakness. It's another thing for people on social media to pick on as well as you know, potentially even your fellow players. So there is a lot to changing to the broomstick.

01:11:22
Speaker 4: With one of one of those players that we mentioned, ben On, I wanted to get into a little bit. I think that's a really interesting player to watch. So it'd be curious for your perspective on him, Sean. I know that you tweeted about him winning the USAM What was it fifteen years ago now, which feels crazy.

01:11:40
Speaker 2: No Southern Hills.

01:11:42
Speaker 1: Oh wasn't he in the mix of Chambers Bay.

01:11:46
Speaker 2: He was a semi finalist the next year at Chambers Bay.

01:11:49
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think one thing to watch with ben On in particular, he's always been an elite ball striker, really good driver of the golf ball and really good wedge player. Awful putter, and when you're hitting a lot of good wedges and not converting those putts. Your scoring can change a lot when you get much better at the putting. It's almost like cam Smith where he's a really good wedge player, really good putter, and when he added a little bit of speed, a little distance, he started giving himself more wedges, and the way that wedge and putting interacts, you can start winning. So I think ben On somebody to watch, maybe for President's Cup this year, outside shot at the Olympics. I think he's somebody to watch.

01:12:24
Speaker 3: Sean.

01:12:24
Speaker 4: What's your perspective on ben On? Where do you see him in the game of golf? Could he get to be a top fifteen twenty player? Like, where do you view him? He's now finished in the top ten both starts so far this year with the better putting in Hawaii. I think he's got four top five starts, sorry, four top five finishes and his last seven starts on the PGA Tour. He's really starting to get it going. What's your opinion of him?

01:12:46
Speaker 2: Another guy also? I mean he picked up twenty yards and a lot of that's the work with Sean Foley, another Shan Foley reclamation project that we've had a lot of lately with you know, Michael came as well, and Ben always kind of played with an open club face and a little bit of a cupped wrist. The top kind of got into a much stronger position with the bode left wrist and a stronger club face, and I think we saw that really with the I think two irony hit into eighteen that really gave him a chance to win it outright where he had about a twenty four for eagle. Yeah sick. I mean, so the long putter is definitely helped, but you really can't discount the extra twenty yards as well, and the work with Sean going back to the corn Ferry tour as well. I think guys sometimes benefit from that because they realize how much they actually love the game because you have to kind of fight through it. Like if you only love golf for life on the PGA Tour and that gets taken away from you, you better learn to, you know, kind of love golf for what it is because there's a drastic difference between lifestyles there, and you've got to return to the grind a little bit. And so I think, yeah, better putting bent on with twenty extra yards, I think you can see some of maybe that promise that came out when he was an amateur. He's the youngest player ever to win the usam He was seventeen turn pro after a year at cal. You know, he's won the BMWPGA over in Europe, so he's won big titles. He's played in one President's Cup, so you know, we're super optimistic early in the year. It's back to back top fives. But I definitely think Olympics are big for him with his parents both being Olympians and table tennis and yeah, I could see you know, top twenty. I think President's Cup definitely. I think especially strong ball strikers are important for that team and I think that I think he's definitely in the mix there.

01:14:23
Speaker 4: And just one other note on that before go ahead, Andy, but he led this, led the PGA Tour, and strokes gained around the green in the twenty eighteen nineteen season. He has a good short game, like he doesn't have a lot of holes in his game. The putting was really holding him back and now with the broomstick it's kind of turned around. I think he's absolutely a player you gotta watch good.

01:14:41
Speaker 2: Andy led the field and driving distance at the Sony.

01:14:45
Speaker 1: That's I mean the thing too, We've talked about all this stuff. He's only thirty two. I mean, he feels like he has been out there forever. But it speaks to the youth. You know what you said one year at cal youngest USAM champion ever, it's you know, he's only thirty two years years old, like this is you know, you could make an argument he's entering, you know, the five best years of his career right now. I mean I would be fascinated. And I don't know if either of you have you know this, And I think it probably depends on the player, but just generally where what age do most PGA tour players peak. I think it's skewing younger, but I think historically this is probably the span of a career that you're entering that is your prime.

01:15:33
Speaker 2: I think you guys are right when you've talked before about it. Scus younger because speed's so important these days. But ben Ohen's almost playing like a younger version of himself because he has more speed and is hitting it so much farther. So instead of you know, maybe slowly losing distance or being outpaced by the field as he grows older, he's actually gained distance, So in some ways he's playing like a younger version of himself, and I think he still has room for his peak because of that, Whereas you know, some guys might to really capitalize on their speed when they were twenty five, twenty six, and then it slows down as they get older. Ben On's actually the opposite.

01:16:06
Speaker 4: Another player that went to the broomstick that we mentioned.

01:16:09
Speaker 1: Ok.

01:16:09
Speaker 4: She Batia really strong start to his twenty twenty four calendar year so far. One of my I don't know how much I really believe this, but taking the back of my brain is what could his future at Augusta look like. I mean, he's hits the ball along and you know the little left handed advantage. Don't always have to be the best putter to hoist a trophy there so or wear the green jacket. Curious Sean, what are your expectations for ak she Batia in twenty twenty four, especially with that broomstick potter.

01:16:38
Speaker 2: I've just been really impressed with him. I followed him from a distance with his junior and amateur career and then kind of progression through the ranks. You know, he started last year as a cornferry tour player, not yet a tour member and hadn't really interacted interacted with him much. But I just he's a great talker, a great interview. He was really open. I did a podcast with him at the Century and you know, he brought up the putting struggles. You know, I didn't have to force it out of him. He went right to it. He knew that it was a problem last year or something that was maybe holding him back. And at the Sanderson this fall, he talked about the pressure he was feeling after he won and the anxiety there of trying to please everyone else and twenty one years old but really mature, really poised, really well spoken. I think guys who are open about what they're going through fair better, because it can be easy when you're a professional athlete to kind of maybe try to hide the struggles. I think we've seen that with both Chris Kirk and Grayson Murray. But Aukuhay just is really open and honest about it. He talked about crying in his hotel room at some points during his pro career, like he's not hiding anything, And I think for a twenty one year old, that's really mature and really healthy. So that's impressed me more than anything stat side great ball striker. I think he's around thirtieth in both off the tee and approached the green, and only like nine guys ranked ahead of him in both stats last year. So again, the putting was the hole. Seems to have addressed it. And an interesting conversation I had with one of Calloway's reps, they said that they feel like he is this old soul, veteran type who he'll do whatever it takes to get better. We saw that with the long potter. He's not afraid of trying new things. And the big thing for Aucuay, I think, you know, he went to George Gankas for a while. He doesn't, I don't think work with him anymore, works with his childhood coach still. But he was this you know, lanky bomber when he first came out right, and that was, you know, what was the big thing on social media and why he was such a social media sensation. And now he plays this really controlled fade. He gives up distance off the tea to get some more control, kind of like we've seen Keegan do in this later stage of his career. And yeah, for that, I just like that whole package of obviously very talented. We saw the things he did in his junior career, and then you add in some maturity and kind of openness, and he just really wants to get better. He really knows he wants to be a pro and be the best one he can be, and he'll do whatever he can to do it. And there's no reason, I think to think that, you know, still good stuff is ahead for him.

01:18:59
Speaker 1: I think maybe by favorite thing about Batilla is just the journey, and I you know, I think you could look. I think I was thinking back like I didn't think turning pro right out of high school was the smartest move for him, and he took his lumps, and I always appreciate and I think almost every PGA tour player, like every star player, goes through a period where they have some you know, some I guess, like you know, they don't succeed, and I think having that right out of the gate, it's such a learning experience and for him to overcome that, like we've seen struggles early just you know, kind of cripple players, and you know, it's like, oh, I can't believe this guy never made it. You know, obviously your mind always goes to like tie tryon. But with Batilla, you know, he he had those struggles. He was a punching bag. You know, people were saying, like why do you do this? And to be able to pull himself out of that and now you know where he is, Like he's a bona fide player on the PGA Tour and he's twenty one years old. Most of the guys that most of the guys that are his peers are still in college. If you look at a lot of the superstars of the PGA Tour, like I mean, Victor Hovlind was turning pro at twenty one, right, and he's younger. On the younger side, John Rohm turned pro when he was twenty three. You know, Ludvig a Obart who everybody's you know, obviously the new hot thing. He's twenty three years old. Batia, where's Batia in two years?

01:20:28
Speaker 2: Right?

01:20:28
Speaker 1: And I think that's like age. Age is obviously like a very important thing that's discussed in almost every sport. And we just talked about this with the with the speed aspect, it's not as much as discussed in golf. But like you know, if if a prospect's coming to the NBA. You know, the difference between twenty three and twenty twenty. You know, point eight is discussed. You know, being a young twenty versus an old twenty is discussed in prospects, you know, in the NFL and the NBA. Here's Batilla. You know, he's making his way. You know, he's going to be in the in you know, a lot of majors this year and he's only twenty one, right that that is a very big deal here with him.

01:21:11
Speaker 4: Just to be clear, it should be discussed, Like, there is statistical evidence to players getting better as they age and hit their prime, so it's not just an abstract concept. I mean, there is data to support that there's a relationship between age and performance on the PGA Tour, So it's it should be a part of the conversation. One question I wanted to ask you, Sean, and we've been talking about swallowing your pride a little bit and picking up the broomstick. Big part of golf humility, right, like accepting that you're not going to hit every shot perfectly. You've talked about it with Scotty Scheffler. Do you think that the presence and the adoption of statistics makes it easier for these guys to say, you know what, I am a bad putter. Everyone can see strokes gained putting. I've been bad there for five years. It's the stat a lot of people look at on the PGA tour site or wherever they're getting it. Do you think that the popularity of statistics has led to, for example, swallowing your pride and grabbing the broomstick putter.

01:22:10
Speaker 2: I think it can. I was actually having a really interesting conversation a few weeks ago with someone though. We were talking about also the downward spiral of you look at your stats and everyone can see them. And so for example, there's a fair amount of guys on tour who we would consider great ball strikers who struggle with roskin putting. And how much does that almost become a self fulfilling prophecy of you know, now we have this very accurate putting measurement. You know, before the stats didn't really tell the whole story. You're you know, putts per green, and regulation was more impacted by how close you hate it total potts. Yeah, I missed all eighteen greens. Shipped it to a foot at eighteen putts I'm you know.

01:22:48
Speaker 4: What a great putter, right the whole story to be clear.

01:22:52
Speaker 2: But go ahead, sure they tell that much better story.

01:22:55
Speaker 4: There you go.

01:22:56
Speaker 2: And I think they can become a self fulfilling prophecy also, especially because you know the easiest thing to do is go on the website and look at the stats and then ask players questions around them. And I think we saw it a little bit maybe with Scotty last season of you could see how just maybe aggravating a god of just constantly being asked about the putting. But stats are a big part of every sport and everyone's going to ask about them, and so I think it can go either way. Right, it can lead to improvement, but it can also lead to maybe this like downward spiral where just everyone's harping on your putting on social media and interviews and et cetera, and it can just make matters worse. So I don't know the answer to that. I think it definitely helps because you know, the stats are much more accurate than what you had, but it can also hurt, maybe because the stats are much more accurate than what we ever had.

01:23:45
Speaker 1: I think also in general, it's it's just the relationship between good ball striker poor putter is an expectation thing, right, Like there is no matter what stats say, no matter what you know, everybody knows, like whatever or the was the eight footers like under fifty percent make right, I think that's still the case, right.

01:24:06
Speaker 4: It's like the fifty to fifty point.

01:24:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know you you can know this, but you feel like you expect to make that putt right regardless. And you know, expectations are the hardest thing with good putter. Like with good putting, if you hit it close all day and miss you know, missed eight footers all day, even though it's a fifty to fifty prop, you feel like you are giving shots up. And I always have thought that's one of the hardest aspects of being a great ball striker is that you give yourself more more below make miss percentage putts than anybody else for birdie, and you're setting yourself up to be disappointed more often. Does that make sense totally?

01:24:50
Speaker 2: You're just missing more putts.

01:24:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and more more putts that you feel like you should make even though the percentages say you shouldn't. And no better what the percentages say when you have a twelve you are disappointed when you miss it, even though it's a less than fifty to fifty proposition right totally.

01:25:07
Speaker 4: There also probably is and this gets really complicated, but there there probably is a little too. When you're Scotti Scheffler, your typical seven footer is probably more difficult than a lot of the seven footers a lot of other people are hitting, because that's where you're leaving your shot from one hundred and eighty yards often and versus if you chip and it rolls past the hole and then you leave yourself an uphill seven footer, that's gonna be an easier putt. So I do think there's probably something to the better ball strikers having more difficult seven footers on average. It's not always true, but there also could be a little something to that. It's pretty hard to get specific numbers there, but I do think that can be happening a little bit.

01:25:47
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought of this, but like the when you're chipping around the green, it's just your familiarity and interaction with the green right exactly, it's a huge advantage of seeing the ball roll, even if it's like not perfect. People talk about, oh, it rolled right past the hole. He saw the he saw the break, even if it's not perfect, Having a shot that you hit around a whole location is such an advantage to see the ball roll like people, oh, like he's gonna get a good teach from this putt. You can get good teaches all around the green, right like a player off angle from you. You see the ball just kind of trigger like you learn from every putt that you watch on a green. And I think that is like you, all eight footers are not made equal. And if you hit an eight foot like what you said with Scheffler, hitting a shot from one hundred and eighty yards to eight feet is not the same as hitting a chip to eight feet from around the green. You are way more educated and way you have a way better understanding of the whole location and the way it interacts with the green.

01:26:49
Speaker 2: Also, if you chip it to seven feet, there's a good chance you're putting last among your group. Possibly another angle for teach and shot. Like Dustree, all seven footers the same. It just says that, you know what, there was fifty probability on this seven footer, So that's what we're going to sign it. It doesn't take into it does some slight course correction for like how the field is putting, so but it doesn't Yeah, but it doesn't account for like this was downhill, this was uphill, This had two feet of break, this had no break. So it just kind of hopes that over the course of a season that that will all kind of average out. But if you are facing more difficult seven footers, then yeah, it'll penalize you.

01:27:28
Speaker 1: I got a question for you, guys, both both statistics big statistics people, you know, I'd say, on the spectrum of different ways, Yeah, you guys are both very much further away away from center than I am. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe for extremists, yeah, I would say that you're both both on the extreme side. What's the next? I keep waiting because, like you just you just illuminated exactly what I hate about strokes gained is that it treats everything the same, and it's a game. Golf is a game of like micro details. And that's why I don't like stats. Is like if I have a heater lie in the rough and it's downwind and I have just a nuclear flyer, that is not the same shot as if I have like a lie that is very predictable in the rough into the wind like that those are drastically different shots, and in strokes gain is unable to so like, where is the frontier going that we get to the next level data, like like baseball got to where I feel like we've been stuck at this remedial stage of data for the last you know, basically ten years.

01:28:41
Speaker 2: Joseph giving us all your secrets, I.

01:28:44
Speaker 4: Was gonna say, Yeah, I mean, I get this question a lot. Is kind of my wheelhouse. Andy. I think the general answer I'd give is I think the next evolution in public discourse is understanding a lot of the shortcomings of strokes gained. I will say, for a fact, I think we're over reliant on strokes gained and people are blind to its weaknesses, and that it should be viewed within the context of other statistics. And it is not Gospel's all done, It's not blackjack. Well, there's a balance there, Like stats are really useful, and I don't want to dismiss strokes gained, but I think in general there's absolutely an over alliance on strokes gain. Tons of examples, Right, Your strokes gain around the green is dependent on you missing greens. Right, If you hit every green, you never chip, it's gonna be zero. Like, there's a lot of stuff you can nitpick about it. So I think you could make some better adjustments. You could apply a little bit of a better make percentage to some of these statistics, like you know, seven footer that's downhill and breaking a bunch, you could give it a different expected value. But I really think the key is to understand the shortcomings of strokes gained and use it within the context of other stats. Those have their shortcomings too. I don't like proximity. That's a pretty bad statistic. It's like maybe my least favorite stat but viewing them all together versus just looking at a number like strokes game putting and thinking it explains the whole story, because it absolutely does not.

01:30:07
Speaker 2: I do think the next iteration of shot link will get more into, you know, parsing out the differences in seven footers and assigning proper value to those. And part of that is because of the cameras around the greens that you know you may see when you're at an event. There are kind of four like black towers around the greens, and the cool thing with those they also measure like descent angle and roll out, kind of like we have now with t shots, Like when you go on tracker there's a small little x where the ball landed and then rolled out too. And I think, again, this is one that there will be a lot of variability, but I think it would be fun to be able to see, like hey on seventeen at Wili for the field, you know who has the highest and lowest average descent angle, whose balls roll out the most, and at least give some idea of players from different different yardages their trajectories. Obviously you're gonna alter it a lot with wind and things like that, but I think over time enough of a sample size even just getting shots from a fairway to help us tell you know, who has the highest whose balls are landing at the you know, highest angle of descent or rolling out the least, and give us some idea into the trajectory that players are hitting into the greens, which I think is a huge part of you know, even with added distance, right, you're hitting shorter clubs which allow you to hit higher shots, to stop more quickly and access more pins. And I think that that's somewhere that the cameras around the greens could help us look into But I think also there has to be a lot of caveats around those because you have to use it properly, because you very well, I think it could be used improperly if you just take kind of averages from you know, a couple events.

01:31:37
Speaker 4: You got to be really careful when you start getting into what is the true make probability of this seven foot on this hole? You can get some funky numbers if you don't build that responsibly. So, yes, there's a significant trade off between specificity and sample size.

01:31:51
Speaker 1: It feels like we need a golf ball that has golf balls that have like chips in them that tell you all the data right, because that's like, yeah, then all of a sudden you could you could be able to look at like the exact uh, because I think about it. I watched shop shot Link people. It's like, is this putt really eight feet ten inches? Right? Where where did the ball land in the fairway?

01:32:16
Speaker 2: Right?

01:32:16
Speaker 1: That it's a volunteer Like.

01:32:18
Speaker 2: No more, No, that's what I was gonna say. This year, it's now it's now a PJ Tour employee on on each hole for shot Link and a new system that's that's more accurate as well. So I think you know that's a big improvement there.

01:32:33
Speaker 1: Tour employee.

01:32:34
Speaker 4: That's straight from the source.

01:32:36
Speaker 1: This is big, big news, all right.

01:32:38
Speaker 4: They're freaking news about technologies that have come to the PJ Tour this year.

01:32:41
Speaker 2: Sean, Well, I'm honestly I'm ignorant, but I did see a press release. Arcos UH is now you can now use it in a tour event. I don't know how many you know players players will but I don't know, and I honestly am I've never used it myself, but I'm curious what data capabilities may be there.

01:33:00
Speaker 1: And also I just you think players could use our ghosts.

01:33:03
Speaker 2: I don't know, We'll see, but honestly, I do wish we had access to like a Warda Molinari's spreadsheet saying the biggest thing that's lacking in the data is you don't know a player's target, right. He might have aimed forty feet left of the flag, pushed it to five feet. Great shot, and obviously knowing your missus is a humongous part of golf, knowing your tendencies. But I do wish some sort of like somehow we could have some sort of target uh and intent information.

01:33:30
Speaker 1: You know what the tour could do when they when they raise all that private equity cash and all that all that piff cash, they could buy out Dodo Molinari's business or Hunter Stewart's business.

01:33:41
Speaker 2: I might, It's not a bad idea. I might put it.

01:33:44
Speaker 1: On the list to float that. Ye they're gonna have. They're gonna have to spend a lot of cash. So all right, Sean, we appreciate you coming on chatting about uh about your time in Hawaii and uh the start of the year. Uh, people could find you wrote great art the long Putter that's on PGA tour dot com. And if you got anything, do you have anything else to plug?

01:34:06
Speaker 2: Not right now, No, I'll make sure to tag in some tweets when easy to boost anything, but nothing right now. Just you know, recovering back to the mainland, planning out our. Twenty twenty four should be a good year.

01:34:16
Speaker 1: All right, Sean, thanks so much for your time.

01:34:18
Speaker 4: Thanks for hopping on, Sean.

01:34:20
Speaker 1: Thanks guys, all right, big thanks to Kevin Clark and Sean Martin for their time with me and Joseph, and thank you for listening to another edition of The Friday Golf podcast. Today's episode was edited by Matt Russ's Thank you Matt for grinding on MLK Day and a quick reminder. We've got Friday events that are live and I'm really excited about a bunch of them. I saw that Lake Merced just one big best transformation from Golf Digest. So we have an event on an early March out there, an awesome chance to see the kind of Alistair Mackenzie restoration. You know, they couldn't get everything back that was undertaken by Gil Hants, and you know, you could build a whole trip around it. You know, come spend a weekend in the San Francisco area, whether you go up to Napa Wine Valley. I remember a lot of people did that last year. They did Wine Country before and then came came down and did the event. So it's an awesome trip. You could hang out in San Francisco. I think we're going to do some stuff beforehand at Golden Gate Park and then yeah, it's it's a great way to build a trip, a great time to get away from the Northeast or the Midwest. You're in the dold rooms of winter that that March period where it's really rough, so check out the events and everything we've got going on from our event side of things, and thanks for listening to another episode. We will be back later this week.