The Mummy: Why Do People Go On Adventures??

Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for
entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms.
Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your
therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local
mental health provider. Hello everybody, So we are touching upon a much requested
movie today, The Mummy nineteen nine nine Mummy, not to be confused with
the Tom Cruise mega blockbuster the Mummy that everybody saw, right Mum, No,
No, it was a colossal killed the entire rebirth of the monster universe.
It was so bad. Well, everybody who was listening to this episode
think we were gonna talk about Tom Cruise is the Mummy. I'm sorry.
You can turn off now but everyone is sticking around. We are talking about
nineteen ninety nine The Mummy with Um Comeback Kid Brendan Frasier Rachel weiss Um as
the two big leads. And so today we are going to be touching upon
kind of a sort of like big general psychological question, which is why do
people go on adventures like this? Why do people put themselves in peril for
discovery, for treasure hunting, whatever, especially in these kind of situations where
everyone involved doesn't question mark need to do something like this, as they all
seem to have more than enough resources for themselves. So before we jump into
that, I'm going to throw to our guests today, Charlene. Charlene,
if you could please introduce yourself. Hello everyone, I'm Charlene McPherson. I'm
an LCSWC I practice in Maryland. I am the owner of Nerd Adventure Therapy
twenty which abbreviates to NAT twenty. I am a certified therapeutic game master times
too, and we'll talk about that a little bit later. And I also
have a podcast and that's how we got connected. That is called Mental Health
Quest, The Therapist Office and Beyond, where we talk about dignoses what questions
you should be asking your therapist, and all sorts of other tips and tricks
as well as what mental hellum actually feels like for the people who are experiencing
it through our practice. So that is it for me. I think I
think that sounds like enough. Yeah, all right, So thank you Charlene
for joining us and talking about this beloved movie The Mummy. Like I said
at the up top, a lot of people have requested this movie, A
lot of people, a lot, a lot leg so many, so many
requests for it, and we love you all for loving us enough to ask
us to do it. So here we are doing a fan request episode in
this season. We're excited because all of us are exactly the right age that
we watched this movie at the theater probably four hundred times, and then when
it came out on VHS or DVD, and then when it ran on the
campus movie channel, and then when it ran at your friend's house at HBO
of you know this. I can't think of how many times I must have
seen this movie, but it's a lot. I am gonna come out though
right now until I am a little surprised that people came out this hot for
it. For our show because it's such a popcorn movie that there's not a
lot of psychological depth. But we're gonna find some anyway, So let's go
on an adventure. Yeah. I think we all came into this recording with
the same energy. Charlene, you came in hot though, which we appreciate
as a guest, and even heavy lifting for the three of us in that
no offense. Everyone requested it. We were like this movie like, no
one's really struggling. There was no like psychology stuff that popped up too hard,
especially considering like the main character is a vet who has gone through hell
and back in multiple different ways, and yet seems totally cool and totally together.
Right. He's a French Foreign Legion too. It's not like he's he
left Erica to go join the most notoriously difficult training where they just basically throw
you in the desert with a canteen and go survive and then you're in the
legion. See I didn't know that about the French Legion. He's stilled French
at the beginning, And yes I did clock that, and I was like,
oh, wee wee, Ricky. The French Foreign Legion is a notoriously
difficult thing. So it's the veteran nous of it is several levels above would
be special Forces level. And I mean, who fell into a scary,
spooky situation, who then is in prison for three years, who then is
pretty much killed by hanging but survives. But he's like, he's just one
good shave and a haircut away from just back at it again. Yep,
no, no psychological ramifications. He found he sees a girl that he's got
a mad crush on five minutes in and he's like, I'm ready to roll,
I'm ready to role. He's fine, you know, he's just back
because he's a fighter. That's why that's what they do. But I think
that is what makes movies like this comforting, right because as everyone knows now,
we have over a hundred episodes where we take movies that seem even benign
like this at the face of it, and then we talk about and we're
like the gee whiz dork. And so it is kind of nice to watch
a movie that's like a popcorn comfort movie and it actually is a popcorn comfort
movie. Not all movies have to be rip you down to the studs in
terms of like seeing yourself on screen or your life experience or whatever. So
I get why the appeal of this movie, Like Ben was saying, the
appeal of it to watch for us to talk about. I don't know if
we've missed something. If y'all are listening and you've request this movie and we
have grossly missed something that you really wanted our takes on, please email us
a popcorn psychology Gmail dot com, or message us at our variety of social
media's and you know, maybe we will answer those questions in like an ig
live or something right. And you know, maybe maybe we'll try that on
threads since Twitter is burning. I've heard that threads though, maybe we'll have
to cut this house probably gonna be dated as soon as we are finished recording.
But I've heard the people don't like threads. But you can't delete your
threads without deleting your whole Instagram account, So it's kind of a colding people's
hostage so they don't lose their Instagram accounts. Mark Zuckerberg, you've done it
again. You've done it again, evil genus. But yeah, so,
since we didn't really have a specific like mental health diagnoses or like wildly specific
psychological take on this movie. We decided to talk about why do people do
this? Why do people go on adventures like this? Because as I set
up top, there's no one person in this movie who would be like,
um out on their ass, if you will, If they couldn't find this,
this city, these resources, these jewels, gems, what artifacts,
what have you? Like, everyone would still be fine more than fine.
Well Rick, yeah, but he is not the one. He's the only
one who's not really invested. So ironically he's the one that's the most to
gain from this and is the least caught up in it in terms of like
the thing they're going after itself. He's not like going to be rich off
of this. He'll have his life, but it's not. I don't know.
It's interesting to watch this again and be like, God, they're really
putting himself through it and for what? So if either of you knowledge.
The more we talked about this in pre show, now I can't turn my
D and D d M brain off of like, the more we talk about
it, the more we think about it. Because they're D and D characters.
That's why, yeah, can you expand on that answer plane? Because
they are all individualistically motivated by their specific backgrounds, and they're each motivated by
the things they're motivated by. Rick is in it for the fight to overcome
the fight he lost at the Hominoptra site. And Evie is in it to
prove her knowledge and that she is good enough and to overcome her greatest loss.
And Jonathan is in it because he is a fucking rogue and he is
a gambler and there is money, there is money to be made, and
everybody thanks for listening. No, but I think that is interesting because we
do like we are lucky, and it's kind of I don't know, I
feel like incidental because I didn't realize this about you, Charline, So we
started talking that we have you on this episode, thinking of it from that
perspective, since you do so much work within the realm of DND, where
Hannah and I not to speak for you, Hannah, but I think you'd
agree. Hannah and I are like, I don't even know if we would
say we're on the outskirts of DND knowledge, we're in the we're in the
neighboring town, yeah, where sometimes we go visit. Yeah, like definitely
the neighboring town. Like, what are they up to over there, like
we'll drink a margarita. You just hear all the commotion going on in the
town over and sometimes you're like, yeah, that sounds like it might be
some fun, so let's go check it out. Or they're going to get
themselves in a lot of trouble. Maybe we should keep them from doing.
Although Brittany is trying to play coy right now, but she we have a
West Marches campaign, you know that where Brittany does play with us sometimes and
she has a rogue and she plays it awesome. I do, And I
couldn't tell you one thing about it about it, I have to look up
my character. Shoot right now, if you wanted to be that I was
a rogue, to be quite honest, Papling rogue, Yep, that sounds
correct. I just wanted someone sneaky that would steal stuff and I seemed to
have to know less about because I feel like with these ones of the magic
and stuff, I feel like there's a lot of remembering things. Yeah,
Wizards, there's a lot. Yeah. And I also like the juxtaposition.
I would also say Benny was a rogue, oh definitely right, But he
didn't have any moral guidance whatsoever. He was just in it for the money,
that is it. Whereas Jonathan, I think had evy. He was
definitely trying to protect her, but he was also definitely there because of Jonathan
is chaotic, good M. I think Benny is like pure chaotic neutral Yeah,
yeah, M. Benny has no allegiance to anybody other than staying alive,
and he is very, very scared. He is a Chicago native,
so it turns out too oh you mean he's not native to whatever accent he
was doing in that movie and cultural garb. He was wearing. Fezes are
cool, okay, doctor who according to doctor, yes, they are very
much or beanies. I guess he had a little beanie. It was the
other the other archaeologist or whatever. The guy was, the professor who had
a fez. Bennie had a little beanie. The guy from the Titanic.
Yes, yes, okay, understood that's where he's from. Yes, so
it's like martn't recognize a guy. But yes, I think people people go
on these adventures like this because they're compelled to complete a mission that they failed,
and they're compelled to earn their place in society. On a psychological well,
we have to overcome the failures that we have encountered that we know we
can win and reclaim our status. There's a part of us that won't let
it go until we complete its mission. I said I wouldn't talk about the
parts, but I lied. There's a closing loops kind of metaphor that I've
been working on and kind of drawing maps from. But essentially, a part
that has not finished its mission has a open loop that keeps getting drawn back
to and it seeks to close the loop. So the way what I mean
by that is a part is a sub function of our personality that evolves to
meet a need that our core self couldn't do by itself. So we had
to form a separate part of our identity that could do what we couldn't.
And when that part evolves after the event is over, we stay stuck with
that part active. Its loop is not closed, and anytime we get something
close to the situation that triggered the formation of the part, people will get
drawn in. You can think about it like looking at Uncle Rico from THEE.
Yeah you pull that out of your ass? I sure did, or
you know, So, if we're gonna stick with football. You can you
know a good old friend Al Bundy, no matter what it was, you
could get him talking about football and he would tell you the same story over
and over, got through four touchdown passes. And Uncle Rico is still still
videotaping himself at thirty five or forty years old, throwing footballs like some scout
is gonna come pick him up. Yeah, So tying it into random pop
culture references, but really recognizing that people who have parts of them active that
have been rejected by something then get on a question a mission to prove their
worth and that sometimes won't turn off until you do the thing and get a
corrective experience. Yeah, and we were talking about earlier. Evie gets rejected
on multiple levels. Right. It's like she gets rejected by the Benbridge scholars.
She doesn't seem to be very appreciated by the guy who's running the museum.
I mean she did destroy the whatever, but there's you know, there's
that um that, and they wouldn't take her because she didn't have enough experience
in the field. Right. So again, like she had to prove something,
She had to prove her worth in the field. So that's why she
went one hundred percent right, and Jonathan went because dollars because he lost.
You know, he tells us right off the bat that he never finds anything.
He never finds anything of substance. He's probably ultimately because he's an archaeologist
too, isn't he Like, so he's probably a multi class. I mean,
I don't feel like maybe I wasn't listening hard enough, and I don't
really remember enough details from the second movie other than the fact that they have
a kid, not Jonathan, but Evie and Rick in that he does seem
I mean, the way I interpreted Jonathan was as a typical like rich like
what's the word looking for? Not a like definitely a pleasure secret, not
a rake, but that definite sort of scallywag kind of energy. I don't
know what the posh term for that is, but I can't find it.
But he struck me more as well. I think what's really interesting with them,
so I'm gonna switch a little bit is that Jonathan is the older of
the two siblings, and I found that really interesting. They do that thing
I hate in movies where they will call after each other as their relation to
each other, well, hello there, baby sister. No one has ever
done that in the history of time. I have many siblings. They have
never said to me. They've never even called me sister, you know what
I mean, Like, hey, sister, Maybe when they were drunk scrooming
down the street. I don't know. But like this thing that they do
in movies is like a quick way to like make connections drives middle bonkers because
it's so unnatural and I feel like I've only seen it in movies and TV
shows, never in Reliable was like, you can't find a more natural way
to like figure out how they're connected to each other anyways. But Jonathan does
seem kind of like that, like aimless rich kid. I think what's interesting
to establish with him an Evie right away is that they are nepo babies.
They are rich kids, right like the librarian owner says right away, like
the only reason why I put up with you and probably the brother is because
your parents have supported basically they have been significant patrons to this. So Jonathan,
I do think is interesting in terms of aspirations in that I wonder how
much he's there because as Evie's there and their parents were there, and Jonathan
doesn't strike me as a person who has done a lot of introspection, and
so I could see him going on an adventure like this for a few reasons.
One the money, very the surface level stuff like the money. He
seems like someone that, even though he probably has a lot of money,
also probably seems like he has a lot of debts, like he's always out
running his trust fund, if you will, that's how I imagine him.
Then I think, I don't know if he knows how to be a person.
Without Evie, they almost feel more like twins than he's like the older
sibling. Yeah, yeah, that I feel like he would go anywhere that
Evie went, no matter how dangerous it is, because I don't know if
he knows how to be his own person. He may not, and don't
forget like if his unless they have different parents, which seems doubtful. That
he is part Egyptian too, Evie says, the two white I know,
right, they look they look very Middle Eastern, right, two white English
actors look very easy. Yeah, like they're half Middle Eastern, yes,
half Egyptian. Um. But Evie does say, like, you know,
dad came here from England and mom was Egyptian, and that's part of what
draws are to it, and Jonathan does say right in the beginning, I
go out on these digs and I never find anything. And he found the
key. Mmmm, okay he did, so I think he is an archaeologist
or something. Maybe he's you know, a benefit gentleman explorer. Yes,
that seems like the thing of it's time. It's an executive producer. He
shows up and funds, yes, yeah, but it's not involved in the
creative at all. Just goes like, here's money to do things and make
a shovel. Jonathan over there, don't don't go where any of the flags
are exactly right, right, But he does have the roguish energy to him
where he knows he can be slick and relies on it, but he can't
resist the gambling. So there's definitely likely something of an I am not the
favorite child of my academic parents. Yeah, definitely trying to prove himself because
he knows he knows the language as well, because at the end he reads
the book so like to the point all the same education that Evie does,
he can read the same. You know, he's not as good at it
because there's that one scene where a Knox was trying to kill Evie and she's
like translating as they're yelling back and forth, but like he still knows all
the information. He still has to be super duper smart to be able to
know a dead language, you know what I mean? So try again.
Like he I see him more as like the goofballness is the cover for the
pain that's going on because he can't prove himself. He doesn't feel as worth
as much as his sister, like you know, all that different kind of
stuff, because he never you know, comes through with the good stuff,
you know, and that goofball I said, Um, he also has some
like addictive type behaviors as well. Absolutely, yeah, So he was like
seeking out this thrill constantly over and over and over again. And we know
a lot of that is like okay, when you're in tongues of pain,
you go to seek out that thrill to kind of to kind of help,
you know, quench that that pain. Right, And so you know that's
what I kind of see him as is like the goofballness is his protection.
It's his shell, it's his face, that heat, his mask that he
wears, but really underneath, he's super smart and can do this. Just
nobody has confidence in him. M hmm, I agree, because Jonathan does
show up to be quite competent. But I think, yeah, that lack
of faith in other people results or lack of faith in him, resulted in
him going like, fine, I'll go out and use my smarts to manipulate
and trick people, including you and who what sounds fun to me? Because
he is inherently mischievous. Yeah, well, I think he and Evie are
both I don't know if I would say impulsive, but they both definitely do
things without thinking all the way through. And like reading from the book,
reading from the book even the way you never read from the book out loud,
that is like a D and D rule straight up dotory from the book
out good idea. Yeah right right, it's doing yeah yeah, not doing
what you think it's doing. Yeah. But I would say even like how
she's introduced in the movie, like if she would have taken five minutes five
seconds, I should say to think about reaching across, Like she doesn't have
the patience to just go down the ladder, go across, put the ladder,
go up, like they both are. You see time and time again
the movie. People that will take shortcuts, like their attention span will take
shortcuts and they just do things without thinking, Like I didn't even say the
way Jonathan smacks that one guy to wake him up. Like there's all these
little things they both do throughout the movie that are so pleasure driven or like
spontaneous or impulsive or very like I'm having a thought and now I'm going to
execute that thought and the whole timeline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I
call this the inner squirrel and y. Both of them have an inner squirrel,
because the inner squirrel is the way I think of Adhd as being a
person who has it. My inner squirrel also leads me on little adventures that
sometimes are not the best decisions or the most thought out decisions. But then
the other side of it, which I think Evie finds with herself and so
does Jonathan, is the personality type that says, I'm fine, we'll be
fine. I don't care what it is. I'm just gonna do it,
and if I make a bad decision, I'll make another decision to correct it
later. I don't care, it's fine, we'll figure it out. Same
identify with those two characters so much. I'm like I would have done the
ladder thing. I would have totally done the ladder thing and been like I'm
not getting all the way down all of this ladder to move it over here
and get all the way back up. I'm going to take the shortcut and
it would end up the exact same way you mean, where you fail your
deck check, Yes, exactly, but you roll the one on that next
chick. I would totally do it. So like maybe even diagnosing you know,
Ev and Jonathan would maybe a little bit of ADHD. Yeah, it
would be a possibility, a possibility I think because I definitely recognize some of
my behaviors in there. Yeah, you see it and you just go like,
oh yeah, I would do that, like goddamn it. Well,
and I think they have that thing to them, which I do think is
why people who have indy ADHD can fly under the radar, which is that
if you are very smart then that can and have resources because like we said,
they're also very privileged in many ways, and so there is you'd be
married, James Bond, She's fine. Well. I was even thinking of
the fact that like if I would have been the latter thing and all those
things fallen on, I would have been like throwing up out of anxiety.
I would be on my hands and knees like I'm so sorry, I will
I will stay here day and night into like clean it, like please please
please. And so the fact that she immediately goes into praising herself, I
feel like says a lot about the privileged position that they're in. And he
writes like, you know, checks are on that. And I would say
they have that thing, both of them going for them, which is that
you're really smart, so you can kind of wiggle your way or talk your
way or prove your way out of the pickles you're in. And so then
you never really sometimes learn from those experiences because you can sort of wiggle your
way out of it. And I said, not just because they're smart,
but also because they have all these other resources. Like with Evie, she
doesn't really have to fix that part of her because even when she literally destroys
half that library, that guy basically says you're unfireable because of her resources.
So I guess you're both gonna suck this up and keep keep it moving in
yeah, you know. Or because she can prove her worth in other ways,
it allows her to get away with and Jonathan with not really taking accountability
for this part of their personality that they seem to be letting go wildly unchecked,
both of them, yep. And and then because he's also underestimating her,
he meets a part of her that's sassy and snarky, and he's likely
constantly underestimating her. And lo and behold, he's Magi. And the person
who could the only person who could have unlocked and found that book, was
the one person he's been shitting on and keeping under his thumb. This is
a D and D campaign, just like like this is a DND campaign,
like straight up, just in the Egypt, it's a D and D campaign,
like the monster is making its way and like cutting through the like less
NPCs who are with you on the journey to get destroyed. And like this
is D and D. I hear Stephen Lynch in my head right, it's
dander yeah yeah. And you know when you, like you said, when
you do have kind of the smarts and a lot of the times the creativity
too, like with the ADHD thinking outside the box. Yep, Um,
you don't get diagnosed. Also, just in our world, if you're female
and you have the female symptoms of ADHD, which again that's me. You
don't get diagnosed until you're thirty five, when you go to your doctor and
go, I have ADHD. You need to diagnose me with it. No,
you don't give me the test. And then they're like, oh yeah
no, And I'm like I know right, Like I know. By the
way, have you seen the squirrel outside? Because it's really nice, Like,
oh, look at that. There's a possible wait hold on, like
oh wait, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, I have add
give me the stimulant so my brain can work and then I can hear colors
and smell sounds. And I do think it's interesting that Jonathan and Evie also
seem to have no anxiety even in the face of danger, which could be
a sign of AHD. If I really think about it, it's like the
more stimulated they become. Because even I wrote this down, I didn't write
a ton of notes for this movie, just because the reasons we talked about
at the beginning. But Jonathan makes a joke when they talk about Evy being
the human sacrifice. He basically says, sucks to be you. And I'm
like, your sister is in like mortal peril right now, like your sister,
like the worst case scenario was happening, and you can't even stop yourself
from cracking a joke about it, and not even in like an out of
anxiety, but just very casual, like, oh man sucks, and it's
like and just the most casual, like it hasn't occurred to him to be
worked up about this yet or at all. Yeah, and then like earlier
in the movie, um, when Jonathan Evie go to Rick when he's still
imprisoned, like he gets himember how but he gets knocked out or something and
he's on the ground and Evie walks over. Oh yeah, and Evie walks
over Jonathan's body to get to Rick to ask her further questions. Like these
two, it's like they have no anxiety. They are a lot alike now
that we're talking about them more. They both just have like eyes on the
prize. They don't really their blood pressure doesn't really seem like it rises,
and even in high stress situations they seem to like keep it together in a
way that's not doesn't make sense. You mean they get hyper focused. Yeah,
because even Ricks the one like anything else. Yeah, I will actually
make really bad jokes, really bad timing because they're not reading the room.
They're just hyper focused on what they want to do. Yeah, because even
Rick is like streaming and hollering and like like Rick is fully reacting, and
he's the one that has the most like physical way to keep himself safe,
and he is more activated from a sensible place, not even from a traumatic
place, from a sensible place than those two jokers that he's like pulling from
behind him, like can we please go somewhere else? And can you guys
stop touching things and looking at stuff? He like that needs to fully leash
them, which she kind of tries to do. I feel like throughout the
movie, Yeah, it's like, why are you getting into fights with the
camel guy? Why are you getting into fights with this guy? He doesn't
remind me. I had a friend in high school where we would go to
the mall and make him hold my hand even though he was like sixteen years
old, because I was like, if I don't hold Jeremy's hand, I'm
gonna we're gonna lose Jeremy. And then he's gonna be making friends with some
like eighty year old on the bench, like on the floor below us.
So it is kind of that energy that Rick has with them, which is
like where are my children. I'm here, said here, stop picking fights,
stop touching things. Yeah, he definitely has that energy with them.
Yeah. Rick does not have ADHD. He's very like in tuned and focused
and like always on the ball and on the game, and like he's just
like with Jonathan especially, he's just like, oh my god, yeah swan
that note, we will take a break here. So I think we've pretty
much summarized that Evie and Jonathan would go on an adventure like this one because
it probably would be pleasing to their adrenaline seeking selves, that hyper stimulated thing.
And then two, like we said, well, I think you brought
up a really great point earlier, Charlene, which is that you're right.
Whenever I need someone who acts like Jonathan in the therapeutic space, there is
typically it's that class clown thing where underneath that there's something really going on that's
meaningful, and you're just trying to act like you don't give a shit.
And this is the way you act like you don't give a shit, because
if you really gave a shit, it would hurt, and it does hurt.
So I think you're right Jonathan's going for a myriad of reasons, but
I'm sure part of it too is some credibility, and then Eve going because
she's a woman and her own excitement. So I think they do have those
other reasons why they want to go, on top of what we've just discerned,
which is they're probably like so fucking jazzed internally to go on an adventure.
Inter Squirrel can't be turned off. Yeah, they're like Because I'll say,
Jonathan's never like I don't know if this is a good idea, guys,
because I was like, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, not
one time. No, even when the whole city is collapsing on them at
the end, he stops in the trash room and thinks about trying to go
for some of the trash anxiety. I'm like full Rick in this situation,
like I would be going. I would knock them probably both unconscious, and
strap into camels and be like, you guys are giving me so much anxiety.
That's probably why the couple works so well, right, Like, I
think a lot of people that I that I work with with ADHD, they
tend to partner with someone who tends to be like Rick. It's like a
very calming type of presence because we need that stability. Well, what's so
funny that you're saying that? As I was watching it, I was thinking,
is ev the overfunctioner to Jonathan's under functioner, right, which you talked
about in other situations, which I think is a typical. It can be
a typical sibling dynamic, especially in this kind of situation where we've established that
they're twins. That's Cannon. Now, Jonathan Evy are twins, or maybe
they're Irish twins, but they're twins in our head, Cannon, and they
can argue. You can argue with it if they want to. Yeah.
Yeah, and maybe she's like five minutes younger than him, but I wonder
too, basically just said Charlie, And if it's almost like Rick is the
overfunctioner's underfunctioning? Yeah, And that's why they're dynamic works because he's paying attention
to everything and she's like Lottie dying. He's like, I'm going to keep
you going in the straight line this way. So yeah, I think you're
definitely right that that dynamic feel satisfying because of that, And I'm thinking about
what you said, Charlie and thinking about like my wife and I both have
ADHD, and I'm trying to think, like, is one of us a
calming presence? No, No, I think we're more like Evy and Jonathan,
but like not the sibling type, but like both of us are like
two little score roles that like can one can overfunction in other ways and then
other can like yes, compais So there's some complimentary but also it is entirely
possible one of us would step over the other who fell over to meet one
of our goals. But I think that's an interesting segue to the other thing
we were speculating on before we started the recording today, which is another reason
why people go on adventures like this, which is individualism versus collectivism. So
we've touched upon our like you know, central three, Rick, Avy and
Jonathan, but they're not the only ones on this adventure, right there are
what would you say, it's in D and D language. Are they like
rival campaigners? Okay, there are rival campaigners who are also trying to beat
them to this treasure. And so it kind of led us to talking about
before we were recording about and the magi. Well, this is the thing
individualism is what we see through all the people wanting to go for the treasure.
Collectivism is what we see from the magi who are trying to defend the
treasure. Right. But if we look at who's like most individualistic versus least
like our group of adventurers are very individualistic, but bonded to each other but
no one else. Yeah, and then the other group of the NPC group
is more so collectivistic. They're they're tied together, they function as a unit,
they rarely function individually, and they have other groups of like the the
groups of people they've hired probably for nothing. And then the magi, who
function entirely is a unit on a collectivistic world saving mission that our individualistic adventuring
party fucks up as usually happens in D and D by joining the collectivistic.
Because I'm thinking about, like, why do people go on adventures like this?
I think what was coming up for me in terms of individualism is that,
and we were talking about this before, is that there is no consideration
for the community in which they are impeding upon in order to get that treasure.
There's no forethought about what will happen potentially to the group if I make
this choice. Versus that choice. Like there's a lot of individual ego,
individual goals. Even with the collective groups like you were talking about, like
the NPC group, if you will, they're also doing a lot of looking
out for themselves and maybe they have little friendships here and there that they're being
thoughtful too, like the guy who lost his eyeballs for instance. But there
isn't a sense of sacredness, even from Evie, who should fucking know better.
There isn't a sense of this discovery isn't for us, This discovery isn't
for us even culturally this discovery, what has gained collectively communally from this discovery,
It's all very like Evie wants to be respected as a woman within the
community, she senter as a man within the community. Sheason, Jonathan wants
to be respected, Rich wants to stay alive, which is you know that,
and the other people it's a lot of like glory and money or in
different ways. But it's money for their group, which is where like our
our band of adventurers here, like they they're out for their individual goals.
They don't care so much about the money, except Jonathan, but they want
their their goals met. The other group. They're gonna you know, swarm
in as an organized group, split everything equally, and then move on to
finding another treasure somewhere else. M which is in my opinion, very individual
individualistic, and that it's purely for personal gain, which I would include being
the gain of the group. But how does it benefit me? Well,
yeah, they I mean they are coming obviously from individualistic culture. Yeah,
there's no argument there. I just mean, like you as you look at
them, like the degrees of individualism start to step out between our groups,
and you see the power of that in the way that they the groups interact
differently the other group. Like I said, they'll function is a unit all
the time. They function as a unity. They all kind of have the
same roles. They don't differentiate their roles. They all just kind of come
in, do the thing, and then leave. Where our group they all
come in like do their thing, their individual thing. Now that could be
you know, film time economics, but also I think you can recognize that
a military or business culture that people will we're together doing this thing, as
a band of adventurers were coming in and doing this and then we leave.
We come into our mission and leave, whereas people who come in on their
own thing for their own reasons, are even more likely to take risks because
the adventurer group, Like when they are going to go and open the sarcophagus,
the professor goes like, wait, wait wait, wait wait wait wait,
use the diggers. Use the diggers. Our group is digging shit up
to them damnselves. Yeah, and consulting no one ever on anything. Oh,
he was either really really rare review or he did something really really naughty.
Oh, he looks like, let's just keep going that part. I
was like, if I found the sarcophass, sarcophagus and a place that was
like not supposed to be there, like the lead coffin they found it,
notre dame. I was like, leave that ship, leave it, just
leave it unopened. We don't need a vampire. That's the reason why it's
led. Let's leave it. Right. So there's a reason you may not
know of, and just because you may have ruled it to be superstition from
an ancient culture doesn't mean there's not some validity to it, right, which
is the point of the magic in this of trying to communicate that Hey,
just because the society is ancient or old doesn't mean that the values of it
are invalid due to your industriousness, just because you can sell the items to
pad some collector's pockets. And the Batman of archaeology Indiana Jones isn't here to
remind you that. Dare you? How dare you say Batman an Jones like
that? Like Batman fucking wishes he was in Indiana Jones of anything? I
know, that's right. I would like that they could not be the same
person in three sentences or less. Go, definitely doesn't have the money.
That's what I was gonna say. He doesn't have the money. That's it.
He doesn't. He doesn't wear a costume that covers up his face.
Oh it's not a coward. Oh were his name or his voice too?
He doesn't do a weird voice to be Indiana Jones. Hannah perked up to
hate on Batman. Yeah, exactly. I hate Batman so like just as
a worldview type of thing, Like the Americans their history is so young,
Like we don't realize how young our country actually is. Like these magi have
been, you know, protecting this thing for three thousand years, right,
Like if this is not like yo, it was like maybe five hundred years
ago or six hundred years this was like the beginning of written language and time
and governments and you know, all that different kind of stuff. So like
I always wonder whether it's you know, the individualistic kind of attitude comes from
just being so young and naive, right, Like, our culture is not
that old. It is really not that old. That's compared to like a
three thousand to five thousand year old culture like Greece or Egypt or you know,
all that different kind of stuff. But yet the way we teach about
our culture and the culturalisms of it as always, but we're the best,
you know, in the nineteen thirties, Like this is still joke. It's
a funny joke, but there also is some degree of truth to it too,
compared to some places, and then some places none truth whatsoever. But
when you recognize that teaching it that way makes people ignorant, And that definitely
was the point of the Americans in this story, of looking at how ignorant
they look, and like how even young their mentalities are. Like they were
definitely all portrayed as like jackass cowboys. Yeah, and they were very teenagery.
Yeah, and I think two which is a very American thing, and
also I would wager a British thing because my assumption why EV is part Egyptian
and part British is that a bit of the good old fashioned colonialism, right,
And so I think what that concept of colonialism and American like even going
West kind of energy, is that if you can conquer a space, if
you can go towards the space and you can take it over with either wits
or will or or weapons or whatever, then you've earned it. It's sort
of that meritocracy kind of concept behind individualism as well, is that if you
can work, if you can earn it, if you can beat it out,
if you can climb the top of that hill, then you deserve that
hill, regardless of whether you were actually the first person to get there,
regardless of the hill quote unquote belongs to you, you know, all that
stuff. And so I think that is a big part of what comes into
play culturally with these groups, right, is this idea that well, if
I can get there first, which as we literally see that I've earned it,
I'm allowed to have it. I'm allowed to do whatever I want with
it. And there's there's no like, I think if this movie was made
today or made in like present day, there would be more discussions amongst the
white people, if you will, about whether this is something they even should
be doing, much less like if they can do it, it's should we
do it? And you're right the magi is that more collective energy coming up
and being like what the fuck? Like this isn't who do you think?
Who do you think you are? Like not only who do you think you
are? But this has nothing to do with you, and you're gonna like
fuck shit up, Like can you think for five fucking seconds beyond like what
you can gain and think about It's like the idea of just because you can
do something doesn't mean you should do something. When people talk about science,
I mean Oppenheimer's coming out soon. That's another you know, It's this idea
I think with meritocracy, which is, well, if I can do it
and it and it benefits me in some way, then why wouldn't I?
And I think the more collective is concept in the way that I understand it,
knowing that I was raise an individualistic quatre, is you know, well,
what does the benefit in terms of not just you, but the environment,
the people around you, the group as a whole the future of the
past, Like there's thoughtfulness that goes into it way past I think what we
are trained to think. And as a therapist, I have to do a
lot of war, especially with men I work with actually who I think it
way more caught up in that meritocracy concept and that individualistic concept and how detrimental
it is even from ironically an individual standpoint. And so I do do a
lot of impacting with clients about this part of our culture and how harmful it
can be and how it breaks us down communally and then we give very lonely
or then we make mistakes and YadA, YadA. So it is interesting to
see it shown in this movie and during a time, and I will say
during a time, and I mean that by nineteen eighty nine, where there
still wasn't any I think cultural scruples around the choices are Gang of Misfits was
making Noah, No, I mean definitely, definitely not. And now there's
much more attention drawn to it. Like can you imagine the scene with Killmonger
in Black Panther happening in nineteen ninety nine in the museum where he's really not
like standing in the British museum or something, right, like telling them like
you guys stole all this, you stole it, like you display it like
well, even us watching Indiana Jones five last night, Hannah, Ben and
I Alwin saw the new indie movie last night together and even then I was
kind of surprised that they still use the line this belongs in a museum.
I know that's his line, so I wasn't shocked that they did it because
it's like his tagline, right, And that is the big topic, like
you're saying, Ben of like, well does this belong in a museum Indiana
or does this belong where with the people that created it or the country that
it comes from, right, which is becoming like a big issue with the
British Museum and things like where the you know Rosetta stone stands is still in
London in the British Museum. I've been there and I've seen it, and
you have to wonder if like is this yours? But you know, our
museums are full of stuff like that too. But museums are starting to give
stuff back, yeah, yeah, And like Greece and Egypt and even Iraq
and Iran are demanding things back, going these Babylonian statues. You have belong
here. These are the relics of our people and the magi having that energy
and that being brought up in ninety nine when we're still watching missile strikes and
Kosovo on the TV, like that's a cool thing to do. It is
definitely starting a narrative that needed to happen. And it is important to recognize
as a therapist that we will encounter people that are from other places, that
are from more collectivistic cultures than our own that exist within our country, and
we have to recognize that the importance of not giving clients advice about how to
operate their culture is the same thing that happens in this movie, Like,
you shouldn't be giving people advice about how to operate their own culture. You
should be facilitating a conversation to empower them to be the best source of knowledge
about what needs to be done and empowering them to be the expert and sitting
with them in the space that they educate you on, not the one you
decide for them is right, because your point of view may be completely irrelevant
to their world. Yeah, just like we see with this the decisions that
these people make trying to correct their individual problems potentially fuck the entire world by
bringing in Goes or the destroyer the Mummy. Yeah. Well also, yeah,
I think what's connecting the dots from me too with this is when you're
being raised an individualistic culture, there's more this idea of like I know better,
Like even what you're bringing up, which there are so many artifacts from
other countries that are in American museums in British museums, And if you really
think about that, what's the underlying belief then that we know how to keep
these things safe better than you. These things are safer, and we'll be
treated better with us white people than with you, right like you, we
we can't trust you. That's why I think, like the argument syndems that
are being made still about why they won't return things is like, but we
are we know how to take care of it. And it's like you don't
think they have museums in Egypt in Iran that they can have their local artifacts
in it three thousand years after we did it in the first place. Yeah,
So yeah, and so then it trickles to these these individual things with
like no offense ev where what does that teach you then as an individual from
these communities is like, well I know better, so yeah, I am
right to open this up, and I am right to take that from them,
like I do know better, I'm smarter, I'm you know, from
a more well rounded like this. Well, we don't take you guys seriously
because they got warned, like right in the beginning of this movie by the
library guy whose name I can't remember, wearing the fez of like, well
you fucking pump your fucking goddamn breaks and he's like, I hear what you're
saying, and I'm going to ignore it because yeah, yeah, And that
ego that is something that comes up in therapy a lot when I work with
people where I'm like, this ego you have where you cannot listen to like
counter information is fucking your shit up, and it's pissing people off, and
it's in like this kind of situation, it's causing real calamity because you cannot
sit in the discomfort of hearing information that does not agree with you or does
not please you or challenges you. But wait, what kind of risk are
we talking about here, Like the plague of Egypt or anything like that could
be real, like flesh eating locusts that could just appear out of the sky,
or like comets raining down and come on, come on. Yeah,
I mean they didn't take it seriously until the wine turned to blood. That
was interesting. They were like, oh, now in their mouths. They
put it in their mouths first. Yeah. I was like, that's so
fucking sick. The fact that they taste it, put it out and they're
like, it tastes like blood. I would be screaming it tastes like blood.
What do you mean casually remarking about it tastes like blood? Like I
would be apoplectic. You'd have to like carry me back to my room and
then I'd be like, oh God. Also, I'm pretty sure Egypt was
a British colony at this point. I'm sure it was. And the sun
this is still definitely the point in time where the sun never sets on the
British Empire. I don't think that ended until the fifties. Yeah, So
this idea would have been stark the present and America at this point in time
was starting to retreat into individualism after the breakdown of the economy, and we're
shutting back down. Because this would have been or maybe this is right starting
the New Deal. Yeah, depending if this is the twenties or the thirties,
I can't remember what your frame it is. But this is either an
American collectivism after World War One or this is where it would probably be why
Rick joined the first place. If he wants to kind of venture, America
is not doing it at this point in time. They're shutting down one.
Nope, we're building up our country. We're doing fucking around your stuff at
all. I was thinking that in the beginning of scenes because I'm no history
bus, and I was like, what war would he be fighting right now
in that area of the world, and like the late twenties or early thirties,
because it's not World War One, So you're right, like I was
thinking about like that he would have had to go find that conflict. Yeah,
well, Rick is of the age that he probably was in World War
One, oh for sure, considering he carries so much weaponry from it.
And then see all of the like industrious mindset that these people would have been
like or not, the individualistic mindset, the self gain, the capitalistic,
imperialistic mindset that all these people are adopting like the Americans are more on the
adventure side, and the British folks are definitely on the imperial side of it,
where like, well, we're better than you. We conquered you,
so you know, all of this is kind of our stuff anyway, and
we're better than you. And ev definitely has suffered from cultural appropriation where she's
going like, well, yeah, but I speak the language and all this
stuff, but you don't know what it means. Just because you speak a
language, yeah, it isn't ingrained into your soul, Like you don't understand
the relevance or the legends or anything. I was like, just because you
speak the history doesn't make you a part of it. Don't forget. She's
half Egyptian. Her mother is Egyptian. Yeah, and I'm part Swedish,
so like culture, but that does feel like the movie's way of trying to
be like but she's not like the other white people. She's part Egyptian.
It's like Egyptian, the way that Cleopatra was Egyptian. It's like, okay,
yeah, well, don't forget that. Later on she realizes that she's
a she was Nefertidi or something in a past life. I recall that's the
second one the second one because Rachel Meis is doing all the cool fight scenes
in like Egyptian garb from back in the day. That's right, Yeah,
Nefertidi, the Nubian queen was obviously a white Jewish woman from England. Yeah,
yes, yes, exactly. So on that note, we'll take another
break. All right, Is there anything else we want to touch upon with
this concept before we jump into treatment? I know, in talking about treatment
with this movie, we're doing a little differently this time in that, like
we talked about before, this movie is pretty simple. So there isn't really
anybody that we're like, oh, they definitely need therapy after this, because
everyone seems to be movie magic. Fine, yep. So we're going to
take this opportunity to have our guest Charlene elaborate further on the D and D
part of it and how she utilizes it in the work she does as a
therapist. So this is sort of a treatment corner, but not necessarily treatment
specific to the characters in this movie. Right, So, like we had
identified that Ev and Jonathan probably have ADHD, right, and what I feel
like you see in this movie too is that as an adhd ar they thrive
in the chaos. They thrive in the quick thinking, they thrive in the
hunting. They thrive in not the routine. Right, that's the and that's
what a lot of ADHD years are good at, except for most of us
don't have the money to go on a Egyptian archeological dig. So what I
do is I have my clients who have ADHD, some some trauma, social
anxiety, you know, regular anxiety, generalized anxiety. I have them identify
their goals. So we identify that Ev and Jonathan both want to prove themselves.
Right, they don't feel very confident in themselves. They don't feel like
they're you know, worth very much at the beginning, right, um,
and they had to go through this life and death journey to be able to
gain that confidence. Well, as a therapist, I think is pretty unethical
to try and ask your client to go through a life and death journey to
learn something. So that's where the D and D comes in. Um.
So what we do is we, you know, identify the goal, which
you know, maybe it is to prove yourself that you you know, are
smart and you are a good team member and um you do know, um,
you're you're what you're good at very very well, and you want to
prove that to to other people. We build that into the character that they're
going to play at the D and D table in a group, and everybody
in that group is working on something, so everybody knows that everybody else is
working on their mental health goals. And basically I would put them through the
story of the Mummy, and it would be a great opportunity. Each one
of those conflict points or um, you know, where they find something or
they figure out the mystery or you know, whatever it is, that is
a great opportunity for that person to show their worth, to speak up to
kind of like um in that that practice area, kind of prove themselves as
somebody who knows what they're doing, or to find that kind of worth.
And hopefully the ideas is the more they practice it at the D and D
table, the more practice they get, then they'll just go ahead and take
it and take it out into the real world, you know, out into
their real lives. So that's how I would use this this movie and these
characters, and I love their growth arcs. I love all of it.
Yeah, I don't know anyone else have any thoughts for like treatment for this
movie then, Hannah, I mean I am not a therapeutic gamemaster, although
I would like to be at some point. But I think building off this
idea because it is something I have a lot of clients who are geeky,
and we have a lot of discussions about these things, and I have DMed
a fair amount of games to this point, and I get the idea of
how D and D could be helpful and will work it in with clients who
have the language to do that so that I can work to speak a language
that's meaningful to them. And I think I love the idea of working into
a campaign with people through effects simile of themselves that can do things that their
mental blocks won't let them do because their negative voices don't apply to their characters,
their inner critic doesn't apply to what their character can do. No,
at least not as strongly. Yeah, and there is no real world consequences,
so like if you're as a therapist, The main thing that always bugs
the heck out of me about trying to teach social skills and have people follow
through and their cognitive behavioral goals as well is there are real world consequences when
you set a boundary. So if you set a boundary with your boss,
there could be a very realtiful consequence as your boss is not going to be
very happy with you. Right, welcome to the extinction. Spike my friend.
Right, and so you're less likely to do it right, so or
the clients are less likely to do it. I wanted to create a microcosm
of society of a team of you know, leadership of all of the things
that you get in a D and D session, good versus evil, you
know, moral quandary. You know, all of those things come up in
D and D, but it's in a space that doesn't have any real world
consequences. So you can either go with what you as the person would respond
or you know, some people play the opposite of themselves, um to try
things out to be like I had one person who had severe social anxiety,
and they played a loud, boisterous, entitled king character who said whatever he
thought didn't heal anybody, even though it was the cleric love when people fundamentally
misunderstand or deliberately so but the and and he was like, I'm gonna play
him like like a butthead and he said, asshole, but I don't know
if we're special curse on him, curse um and he's like, I'm gonna
play him like an asshole. I was like, okay. And what he
found out was the of the group loved that character so much that, like
he was the favorite character out of the whole campaign, where he was used
to being the one who was quiet off to the side, nobody noticed him,
like blah blah blah blah. They named a bug that they adopted after
that character, like they did all sorts of stuff, and we're really engaged
with that character. And so he got to see that, you know,
even if you are a loud and boisterous and you know, stuff like that,
doesn't necessarily mean people are going to hate you or they're going to discard
you or ostracize you. If you know, you do it in a in
a fun you know, kind of self worst type of way, right,
it was so funny to watch that. They're so funny, and it has
to be rewarding to see that. And I love building those kinds of things.
And it's even when I DM there's sometimes like where when I know I
have characters like let's say somebody has a little bit of an impulse problem.
I'm gonna I'm gonna call out my buddy Dwiggins because I know he'll listen to
this, and I'm gonna tell him, like, Dwiggins, I build Dwiggins
traps into my DM sessions for you, because you know, we all have
that one character or one friend that plays a thing that will always fuck around
and find out, will always go off on their own in the campaign and
like trigger traps and dude like like, dude, stay with the party and
they're like, oh, I'm gonna go what about this building? Like yeah,
we'll go there. Well, I'm gonna go check out that building,
and like that's Jonathan and Ivy and like you build traps in and you just
go like, I'm gonna you can like therapeutically do that where you give people
consequences that you build in that don't translate to real world, or you can
go like, look if you keep doing it the same way, yeah,
and then they start to learn from it and they go like wait a minute,
And then you can later have the conversation with somebody of like, so
have you ever encountered a D and DC situation where maybe your DM kind of
learned some of your your mistakes and some of your impulsivities, and then started
kind of building options into the campaign, like and this is a trap.
This is your DM telling you this is a trap in ogol Poorland and they're
like, well, maybe it's not a trap. Maybe if I do it
this way, Like, no, there is no way you can win this.
What I also like to do with my ADHD players is kind of yes,
if it's the impulsivity, but I'll also build in, you know,
reinforcement. So when one of my players was a new player, never played
D and D before, had ADHD and was like, I'm want to do
four flips off of the walls and I'm gonna jump on the back of the
spider and blah blah blah and in D and D like usually you've rolled for
that. I was like, no, you do that thing like your land
on the spider you do with three point landing. It's great, you know.
And he was really excited, right because one of the things in training
that he told us was like, never have anybody roll unless you're willing to
let them fail, right, And that was the first time that he had
tried something really creative. So I was like, no, I want to
reinforce this as much as possible, And then he ended up through the whole
campaign coming up with really fun, you know kind of moves to do.
Was a rogue. He used the people's elbow on the main big bat evil
guy at at some point, like it was it was amazing to watch him
get reinforced for that creativity instead of set you know, told no, that's
not how we do this, right, And I feel like, so if
you have the consequences for the impulsivity, but you also give them the opportunity
to use that impulsivity and that creativity, then it's going to balance each other
out right, right, which is what I try to do. It's like
have that balance with it with like, if you do the impulsive thing in
the dumb one, get's gonna go bad. But if you do it in
the way that benefits the party or like make sense to what the campaign is
instead of like, but I should be able to win if I do this
in like you can't. You literally can't win if you do it that way
social behavior right, right, But you build it in in a way that
if you do it pro socially right, if you do it collective collectively,
then you can like do it in all the ways and use like whatever argument
you're making, I'm gonna go for it. But if you do it in
the ridiculous way, and that's like the thing that people with ADHD sometimes need,
Like this lovely fantasy world to play this out in is okay, But
wait a minute, let me starting to learn. Okay, So I'm like
literally finding iron traps that get me stuck and lock me in a room for
an entire term, so I can't do the thing until somebody comes to let
me out, or if I stay with everybody else, then I can jump
off my teammate who I can coordinate my attack with to do an elbow drop
and land, and then then it's rewarded. I don't even have to roll
for it so that the dice gods don't factor into my decision, that I
can just do the cool thing, And then you can as a therapist who's
not running a game, you can talk with clients who've had that experience playing
games. Has there been a time when you let your character do that or
you learned from something that perhaps the DM that was playing with you started to
catch on too. When you're inter squirrel got you into trouble and people got
frustrated with you, and then you adjusted and adapted. Is that something that
you'd like to be able to use as a resource and remove the mental block
that doesn't let you connect that those ideas all came from you, Right,
This is all inside of you. You have this within you to do this,
and then you can reinforce it and let it grow. Yeah. Yeah,
and that's what that's what I try and do with with my clients.
Reinforce when they make, you know, a decision that's working towards their goal,
I'll reinforce it all day long. I always said when I started D
and D, I would never fudge the dice as a DM, but as
a therapeutic DM uh, it's goals and treatment over those dice. So if
I need to fudge those dice, they're gonna get fudged. I hope none
of my players listen to this, um, but they're gonna get fudged because
I'm gonna go for you know, reinforcing that behavior or um, you know,
making them feel really proud of themselves for succeeding at something rather than just
following the luck of the dice. Right. Yeah, And I in general
dms and players don't always follow the same rule book, but the therapeutic DM
and the players definitely sounds like need to be on a different rule book that
enables the thing that needs to happen therapeutically to happen, regardless of what the
in game universe rules might say. Yeah, and that's what I do with
the with the main thing that my characters do is rate those goals into their
backstory, and so I'll take all five backstories and then I'll write the campaign
around those backstories. So I'll homebrew it um so I can create opportunities here
and there between them, make connections between the characters that they don't know about.
That's my favorite part as a dmbing like, well, actually you have
yes in common with each other that you didn't know and oh man, for
the social skills group, that would be awesome, Like, yeah, both
your characters have this in common. Talk about that and then they'll be like
but I and they have to improp through it and they do awesome. And
then you go like and in the post session breakdown, if that's the thing
you guys do, like, so remember how you guys did that? And
it was awesome. Yeah, I have two people exactly. I have two
people playing Bards by accident, and they're sitting next to each other at the
table, and so they're like whispering back and forth to each other all the
time, like, oh, whispell, are you gonna use a whist feller?
You're gonna use When both of them were working on you know, making
friends and social skills and you know, things like that, and I'm like,
because all my groups are in person, so it's it's just amazing to
watch like their faces light up. They're they're playing the game, they're meeting
their goals and then hopefully and I've had clients go out and be like I
didn't even realize I did the work in group that I did, but I
saw the results when I was outside in the real world. I even had
a client text me like the day after a game and was like, what
did you do? And I was like, I didn't do anything right,
I didn't. I didn't did nothing. It was you, but I didn't
do anything because it was like I know what I'm doing. So kind of
tying this back into the movie, I think a character like Jonathan would probably
do well with something like that in the sense of like regrouping, like about
this situation, and like these are all the ways in which you actually genuinely
was helpful and which you use the skills that you had, that you're not
just a silly little buffoon who is like good for like chuckles and a drink
and like a card game and a story. That you actually were able to
do this then the other, once you were put in the position to do
this, then the other. Yeah. And you know I would probably if
I had to put Jonathan into a class, I wouldn't put I as a
therapeutic game master. I would put him into a bard because he would still
have all of the fun of being like boisterous and stuff like that if he
wanted to be. But a Bard is mostly a support character. Um.
There's spells and everything buff everybody else. Um. So like you support that
character, you support that character, you support that character. Um. And
a lot of the times, people who are more introverted or who who do
have kind of that doubt about themselves think that they have to be this extroverted
like class clown to get people to like them. Whereas if they're playing a
Bard and they're a support character for the party, that is just as important
as the fighter over there. That's that's whacking the guy for sixty points,
right, right, So like taking these these um characters and putting them into
a situation it's like, hey, look, you know, being a support
character doesn't mean that you're not doing it right. It means that that's just
the way you play the game. That's the way that you you live your
life. You are someone who's going to you know, support the rest of
the team. That's just as important as you know, being the front front
liner. M cool. Yeah, So let me ask you if Jonathan's a
bard, which I actually I think that's a reasonable argument. Like he's like
a jack of all trades, right, that's pretty much what he is.
Like, yeah, he has some roguishness to him, but like Benny is
a straight up rogue. Yeah, oh yeah, what do you think our
death is? Is he a paladin or is he a monk? Which that
was the main magic our narrator the Yeah, mmm, I don't know.
Probably I probably go with a monk, although paladin sounds good at the same
time, because no, he has an oath, so he has an oath
that he's taken, so he's he's a paladin. That's what I thought.
I was thinking, Like, and he's using metal weapons, but like,
yeah, he's a Yeah, he believes in something so hard that it comes
true. That is what a paladin is. Yeah. Wow, Okay,
like the magic the recent why the magic works is because they believe in it
so hard it just suddenly recomes true. Like Mike Wheeler from Stranger Things,
Right, you you use that and you have an oath as a paladin that
there's different kinds in D and D. I don't know all the oaths,
but yeah, he definitely had the oath to protect the city. M hm.
So yeah, right, Well what any any treatment ideas from you two
maybe off of that conversation. Yeah, nothing, Hey, other than what
I just said, which is I think Jonathan could benefit from, you know,
using this situation to challenge the self doubt. I think I do that
with clients where I'm like, hey, where they don't they don't make that
connection from one setting to another where they'll be like, hey, you know,
I'm having trouble. I don't know like asserting this or like using these
skills in this place, I don't really know what to do, or like
I doesn't think I can and I'd be like, well, you know,
you've been doing that in this setting or with this person, and they're like,
oh shit, you're right, Like I have been doing that with that
setting. And it's funny how money blind spots we have to ourselves. So
I think that'd be something cool to do with Jonathan. But other than that,
I don't really have eb seems fine. Her and Rick are gonna,
like, you know, right off in the sunset and they'll be good.
You know. I think probably if we did Mummy too, i'd probably have
more to say in terms of how they are as parents and if you will,
but since we're just focusing on the Mummy, I don't really have any
more treatment wise to elaborate on anything from you, Hannah. No, there
really isn't anything that I can think of that feels like it would be helpful.
Hannah. I have to ask you because I feel like I want your
input on this. What is it that Rick and Evy are going to do
sexually? Yea, yeah, just what the fuck are you talking about?
I'm just like waiting for handed like they're gonna fuck that's it. Well,
I would say, what do you think, Hannah about their dynamic as a
marriage therapist, like, do you think they would need couples therapy? And
everyone could use couples therapy, but everyone could use couples therapy. But I
would say based on you know, their courting experience, which is basically in
some way what we're seeing that, uh, I don't foresee them needing to
to seek out counseling. I think it would make a lot more sense that
they would need counseling around breathing a child. And just because it seems like
it would, it seems like they'd probably come from to pretty different places in
terms of the things that they think are important and the things that they think
are not important. And so especially when you have somebody, one person who
grew up with money, that shit, it makes your life different. And
and that's sometimes, you know, something that I have to talk to to
couples about or parents about. You know, when you come from two completely
different households, they can have really different expectations for what it's going to be
like to be a parent, and can have a lot of different expectations about
what they thought it would be like to be a parent or what kind of
parent they want to be. And so I think, yeah, I would
be surprised if they didn't need some support around parenting, just because again it
seems like they probably come from two pretty different places in general. But in
terms of couples therapy, like, this is a couple that you know,
maybe they come in for pre marital counting, right, like they're still in
love, it's pretty new. Um, they have similar interests, they have
you know, financially, they don't have any problems that will make a huge
impact on a relationship because money is one of those things. Money is one
of those things, you know. So so a lot of money plays into
relationships. Hannah, what are you a marriage therapist alleging that money, yeah
factors into it? What? Yeah, Yeah, absolutely so. I mean
so there's a lot of there's a lot of things that I think, um,
in terms of them being a couple that I think would go okay or
would be pretty easy, pretty maneuverable around, and that it probably wouldn't be
until they had kids that it really kind of was right in their faces of
what their expectations are or or of like you know, my guess is old
girl got head of nanny and probably separated from parents for a long period of
time and who knows what it's like for Rick, Like we really don't know
anything about his history, but there would be again kind of that like does
ev think kids should be seen and not heard? Yeah? You know,
like does she think that kids? Did she always have to be quiet as
a kid stuff like that? Or because she was so gifted and so intelligent?
Was did she get a lot of attention because of that? And maybe
Jonathan didn't. It's almost certainly that one. Yeah, So like there's a
lot of there's a lot of different ways to look at it, and so
it would just be it would be interesting to see. But it really feels
like unless until they have kids, they probably be pretty happy. Yeah,
because I would say too. And this is kind of my final thoughts,
but I can sort of jump on it here. Is that what is so
nice about watching this movie is they don't have any of the pitfalls of a
movie like this, which I think they would have problems once the adrenaline has
worn off of the situation because he genuinely seems to really respect her. They
compliment each other in that way. They're pretty decent communicators. They're not really
keeping secrets. It's not one of those movies where he is keeping secrets from
her because he doesn't think that she can handle it, or she's keeping secrets
from him because of she thinks he's an asshole or whatever. Like they're pretty
open and curious about each other. They get to know each other pretty well.
Actually they're both very almost vulnerable with each other. From Jump, he
seems to be really enamored with her in a way that is respectful, Not
like I don't know why I'm so attracted to this dumb broad kind of energy.
It's more like, hey, um, so I saw that you like
archaeology, and I saw this guy had archaeology tools, and so I got
an idea. I think that's interesting. But I think what was so interesting
watching it now like like being more keyed in because I'm watching it from the
therapist lenses. He looks, I mean, Brendan Fraser is a good job
of looking very subtly nervous. That's the most nervous. He looks. A
whole movie is like doing this taking this risk vulnerability risk right, which is
where someone who would probably feel more anxiety vulnerability. So I think I think
you're right, Hannah in that I think they would get on like a house
on fire, and I think that they have a lot of strengths already from
the very beginning in that he seems to really respect her, and she's someone
who would need to be respected because her intellect and all that stuff. Absolutely,
absolutely, and he seems like a man who likes women, yeah,
or he has a woman, yeah, exactly, exactly. You know other
problems that pop up around that. Yeah, he doesn't seem to have any
of the rampant toxic masculinity and in turn analyzed misogyny that we typically see in
his stereotype of the character. He definitely doesn't have any of that, and
he really lets her run the show in a lot of ways. Yeah,
he's got no boginess to him, you know. Yeah, he's never like
you think God behind me, you know, like we're talking about watching Indiana
Jones yesterday, Like he's still misogynistic, brick. Yeah, he's still calling
he's still calling her sweetheart and honey and don't get your fucking feet wet or
whatever. So that's at least one thing that this movie didn't have, which
again would be positive because at least he respects her as an equal in a
way that we don't see even though it's so few and far between in the
film, like it's really not seeing that much time go by, but even
being able to see that from jump just makes a huge difference in terms of
him taking her seriously. M And men who are misogynistic don't, Yeah,
they just they don't. They don't listen, they don't give a shoot.
Yeah. And he was like right next to all of the people that were
misogynistic, so like the guy that ran and musee him, and then the
other guy that was the head of the Americans, you know, when he
said, you know, a woman can't know anything anyway, or is like
Rick came in immediately and was like, okay, what we doing. You
know, he saved my life. Let's go yeah, you know. Yeah.
The only misogynist I think he really does is asking for the kiss in
the beginning. But I'm kind of like, if you're about to be hung
from the neck till dead, you know years, I guess I can allow
you shooting your shot in a kind of a douche way. And then the
other time I think is him hefting over his shoulder and throwing her and but
I feel like he would do that to Jonathan too. In some ways.
If you like Jonathan Moore, oh, he'd be like, Babe, this
is not your rodeo, this is not where your strengths shot. I'm so
stay home, please, because I have enough to worry about. That's more
of like the leash thing we're talking about earlier, where he's like, can
you guys just stay in one spot because you're stressing me out and I can't
do my part of this job effectively. But yeah, so we will take
one final break there and then go to our final thoughts. All right,
So I kind of already said mine. I think the only thing I would
elaborate is I do love this movie. It's sky little cornball on it.
The CGI is not holding up, y'all. I'm sorry to disappoint the I
laughed out loud when the Mummy letters came up in the beginning. It was
so hardcore, like a CD ram I would have played, like a game
I would have played on in a CD ram on my computer, like Missed
or something. But I still love this movie. I think it holds up
in all the ways that matter. Though I think it's aging so crazy.
Well, like we're just talking about like a lot of the pitfalls of old
movies. We were like, like, that's pretty shitty. That guy said
that, that's pretty you know, like misogynistic. You know, that's sexist.
I mean, this movie evades most of that, and the people who
are saying it like we just said, are the ones we're not supposed to
like anyway. So whoever, whoever, producer, writer, actor, whoever,
made the choice at some point along the story making of like he's not
going to be that kind of hero, Like, kudos to you. You
saw the future and you were like, this movie is going to age as
well as we can make it age, considering all the other factors in that
are. It's just really nice to see a couple that actually feels like a
romantic couple where I'm rooting for them and they have good chemistry and they seem
like they're an equal footing and he seems to respect her. You don't get
that in many movies like this. You kind of just have to like make
it work in your brain. So I think this movie stands up for the
parts that we can forgive about it, and I will definitely watch it again.
It's a fun movie. It kind of makes you want to watch the
when he returns. But yeah, so I like it and I will keep
watching it. Hannah. Um, yeah, I like this movie. It's
really fun. It's the story is pretty simple. Um. I love Rachel
Weiss, so that really helps. Um yeah, I would. I would
probably watch it again. And um yeah I enjoyed it. And her eyebrows
are fucking crazy. Um. But they did it for, you know,
to make her look like she's from the thirties or whatever. But um,
yeah, like that's it all right, Charlene, if you want to go
next, Um, as an adventurer at heart that I love this movie.
I love it every time. I will watch it. Um, And I
think too. Um. You know, I don't know how old everybody else
is, but like back in nineteen ninety nine, having a feminist character that
you could really respect and that was respected by the male lead was not common
back then. Yeah. So I think as a teenage person who identifies as
a female, having a strong female character being respected by their significant other was
was something really important to see, especially at that particular age. I think
I was in the eighth grade, ninth grade something like that. So I
really love it, and you know, it definitely is useful story wise.
If I had my ADHD years or my you know, all the rest of
the diagnoses for sure, All right, then take it home. Yeah,
I still love this movie. It is not the most deep movie, and
I agree that the CGI could use another passover. Let's just go ahead and
just redo it, because this movie deserves to be watched for all the reasons
we're talking about, and also just because it's it's a simple fun movie.
It's a simple monster movie, but it has enough complexity and layers to it
that are kind of underpinned that are positive that did cause it to breakthrough.
This was not a movie that was banked on to break through, and it
became a cult hit and a breakthrough like box office hit that people just loved
and went to see. I mean, this is, you know, still
in the back of the days when we had the second run theaters, and
I think this one got a whole second life in a second run theaters for
the dollar shows or the three dollars shows that I don't know those exist anymore
but are not common. But this movie still deserves to be shown and still
seen because it's fun. It is a fun movie, and I get why
people like it, like Brendan Fraser and all the rest of the cast are
so charismatic. They're so charismatic. I think you just feel like you're having
fun on an adventure with these goofs, and that these are people you'd probably
go on an adventure with, as opposed to some of the other movies where
you get like cranky ass or like narcissistic people, and like, really none
of them are unlikable, and it's fun and everybody is attractive as hell.
And it's something that's somebody shared on Twitter some time ago that made me laugh
really hard, and they just said, like, my sexual identity is the
cast of the Mummy. Yeah, yeah, it does seem to be Orientation
of the Mummy. Yes, yeah, it does seem to be a lot
of people's, Like at least Bisexual Awakening was the Mommy where they're like,
hold up, where's everybody from? Right? Where's everybody from? Get it?
Like there's a little something for everybody. So fucking beautiful, still beautiful,
And it's like I do love the old school movies where they give people
those beauty shots. Yeah, yeah, they're like they have the movie star
has arrived to set sir put on her face when she walks up with like
the veil on and stuff, and you're like, whoam Yeah yeah, like
like they you know, plane her up quite a bit, and then all
of a sudden you're like, oh wait, hold on, like I got
a nuxtion the moan that made sense, like she did the whole body paint
thing, which is also probably right when SI started that of like, oh
yeah, that makes sense to me. I get that. And then Rachel
I shows up and like she's in the like the veiled garb and all that,
if she lost her clothes and you're like, oh, okay, so
she's not the librarian type movie got me? Yeah, she's all that got
me again. Yeah, but as if she was not beautiful the salute first
fucking frame of her face in this movie ben Oh she was. She was?
She was. But then they you know, leveled it up, like
you said, the movie star has arrived. The glamor shot at it.
But like it was, this movie is fun and I you know, when
my daughter is a teenager or closer to an age, it's appropriate for her
to see her and she can handle. I look forward to like letting her
watch this and just have a popcorn movie night. Sometimes we don't need the
deer Hunter. We just need something that's ridiculous and fun and like you just
watch it and go like I had a good time and that was it is?
Yep? What all that note? So, Charlene, where would you
like to be found if people want to learn more about you following this episode?
Yes, um, you can find me on all social medias at NAT
twenty therapy UM and then www dot net twenty therapy dot com. That's my
private practice, that's UM. And then I do have a podcast called Mental
Health Quest The Therapist Office and Beyond where we talk about We're on our treatment
series, so we bring in experts and talk about treatment and kind of talk
about diagnoses and treatment in short what I like to call charline terms. So
that's where you can find me. Very cool and as always, you can
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cool way and in a collective way, y'all. Alright, grows goodbye,