#54 Victor and Maite

Jackie. I can't. I can't hear you. Where are you. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:09.639 I'm at the beach. 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.720 You're at the beach. Are you wearing plenty of ointment? 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:16.120 How are you? 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.720 I'm good. I had a medical question for you. Our 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.840 audy belly buttons prefer to innis because they need less 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.240 upkeep okay, As I was talking to my dentist, and 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:29.120 when I pushed him on it, he says that, yes, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:31.320 what I know. 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:34.720 What shark? 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:44.400 Oh my god, I'm gonna tell your picture. Baby shark. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.520 Do do do do do do? Baby shark? Do do 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.360 do do do? Baby shark? 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:50.639 Do do do do? Do do do? 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:03.720 I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is heavyweight. Today's episode Victor 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:20.000 and Mita right after the break. Depending on how you 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.000 look at it, the story of Victor in Mitay is 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.679 either a love story for the ages or not a 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:29.440 love story at all. Since first meeting Victor, I've been 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:30.959 trying to decide which it is. 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.560 When she gets into a room, it's like the sun enters, 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.720 you know, everything is nice and warm. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.520 Victor is a painter living in New York, and he's 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.319 describing Mighty, the woman who first stole his heart thirty 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:46.280 five years ago. 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.920 The truth is, every time I see her, it's the 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.440 most beautiful that I have seen her in my life. 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:58.960 Victor paints huge, spectacular canvases. There are common motifs like 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.880 rotary phones, skulls, butterflies. But the thing that nearly every 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:07.560 painting has in common, the thing Victor can't stop painting, 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:15.160 is Mita. They first met at a party back home 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:19.120 in Mexico thirty five years ago. Mita was eighteen and 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.040 Victor was nineteen. All these years later and no detail 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:24.040 has been forgotten. 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:29.920 She was wearing a white lace suit which was from 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.440 her mother's, like a seventies thing from her mother. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:34.720 How can you forget that? 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.359 Victor, shy by nature, said nothing to Mite at the party, 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.160 But a couple months later he ran into her at 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.280 the university they both attended. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.680 And I asked her if she could model, and she 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.040 said yes, And that's how everything started. 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:01.079 He almost did not even talk that day is my day. 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:06.280 He just said, please sit here, and then he started painting. 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.480 The whole studio smelled of paint, of oil. I was 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.639 so nervous that I could barely think. My hands were shaking, 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:21.240 and I brought a book. I think it was crime 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.600 and punishment, and I was pretending that I was reading, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.280 but I could not focus on the reading at all. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.600 Victor already knew he was going to be an artist, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.200 and it even begun to show his work in galleries. 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.480 His drive made him seem older than his nineteen years. 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:38.720 I was still. 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:41.200 I felt that I was in the head and the 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:49.680 body of a child. And here's this guy who was enormous, 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:55.480 enormous in what he wasn't believed and knew. I barely 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:56.160 knew anything. 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:03.040 Sitting there, holding still pretending to Dosteyevski, mighty was falling 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:11.880 in love. After several hours, Victor stopped painting. He thanked Mite, 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.880 told her she could go, but before she left, he 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.520 showed her the canvas he'd been working on. As Mite recalls, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.720 he was almost blank, and. 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.120 I was surprised that there was not much on it, 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:29.880 except for traces or something, but not as I had imagined. 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:34.159 I was to overwhelmed that this completely out of my league, 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.479 beautiful popular girl came. 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.080 I couldn't do anything. Was just like. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:48.520 But in the days after, I made from memory thirty 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:55.799 five paintings. 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:02.039 After that first meeting, the two started. A couple years later, 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:04.520 they married and moved to New York, where they had 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.880 a daughter. Victor found success in New York. He was 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.120 discovered by a famous art dealer and began showing in Europe, 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.960 South America, and Asia. He sold enough paintings to support 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.640 his family, but as time went on, his relationship with 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.640 my Day began to deteriorate. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:26.479 My nature is very depressive and more introspective and isolated, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.359 so I never want to do anything, never want to 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.360 go to a picnic or hang with friends, or go 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.320 to roller skating Central Park, that kind of thing. 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:41.400 I couldn't And she was the opposite, you know. She 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.360 was like, let's do everything, Let's go out. 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:49.680 He was not very fond of me going out with friends, 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:51.920 but he didn't want to go out with friends either, 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:53.760 and that, you know, that was like a pain in 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.359 the ass. And I think maybe he was always possessive. 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:03.400 It's just that as we were growing older it felt 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:04.080 more intense. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.920 Everyone falls in love with her, men and women. Everyone. 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.920 It's impossible not to. She's that kind of person. And 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.760 I mean, I dealt with that for eleven years. Then 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.480 I had to had to divorce. 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.919 In two thousand and three, Victor and miighty mutually decided 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.360 that it was in their best interests to go their 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:38.159 separate ways. But here's the thing, even now, twenty years 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.839 after their divorce, Mighty is still the face of his work. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.520 The hands, the neck, the lips. Scrolling through his portfolio. 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.000 It's image after image of Mighty might a reading, Mighty, drinking, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.600 Mighty talking on the phone. How many paintings would you 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:55.480 say you have of her? 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.760 I'd made more than four thousand. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:09.840 Probably was there for a point after you guys had 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.400 broken up, for you made an effort to stop painting her. 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:14.520 Yes, of course. 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:20.480 When I've had girlfriends, the question always comes, are you 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.080 planning to paint her forever? 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:23.720 You know? 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.160 And my answer is if you have a better idea, 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:31.600 give me a better idea, and I might change it. 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:32.640 That's my answer. 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.960 And that's the only answer Victor offers, which makes me 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.200 feel like a kid who won't stop asking. But why, 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:45.840 but why why his ex wife? Why might? 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.520 I don't really know, But I've done experiments. I've had 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:55.400 other models, professional models I hire, and the result is 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.800 not the same because when I am working on those, 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.920 I am working on everything that it's not her. 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:07.640 I am just describing what it's not. 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:10.440 Is Mie your first love. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:12.520 I don't know. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.560 I had a other girlfriends. You know that I thought 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.400 that I loved. It's a there, but not like this. No, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:25.040 So the answer might be yes, is. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.120 She is she your only love? Or have you found 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:29.240 love since. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:36.640 I fell in love since? But something dyed? 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.720 I don't want to be, you know, dramatic, but it's 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.559 the innocence. I don't think it can be replicated. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.960 Victor broke up with Mighty as a husband, and yet 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.520 he can't break up with her as an artist. But 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.280 can the two things be separated? To me, it seems impossible. 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.679 But on this point, Victory is clear. He is an 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.720 artist pursuing his inspiration, not a man pursuing a woman. 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.640 No, no, no, I'm. 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.360 Not trying to conquer her heart and to make her 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:15.120 think that I love for No, No, absolutely. 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:14.720 Nothing at all. 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.000 So for you, it's not pining. 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:18.959 No. 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.880 In my Latin American markets, this is like a full 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.560 on telenovela where I have old ladies come to me 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.240 crying telling me that I will get her in the end, 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:40.640 and everyone sees the art and uses her as a 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.040 mirror to tell themselves a story. 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.840 I've been telling myself the very same story that boy 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.640 wins girl, boy loses girl, and boy wins girl back 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.760 by making thousands of paintings. Am I no different than 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.000 the old ladies of the Latin American markets? Or do 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.839 I see something about Victor that he himself does not. 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.880 Eventually Mite got remarried, started a new family, and Victor 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.720 kept his distance. Respecting the fact that Mite had moved on. 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.800 He continued to paint her, though using old photographs as 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:25.040 a reference. But then Mite got divorced. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.520 And I ask her can I take some pictures? 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.520 Then she said yes, which is how Victor and Mite 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.480 came up with an unusual arrangement, one that I've been 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.760 trying to understand. One day each year, Mite goes to 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.760 Victor's studio, just like she did when they were teenagers, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.040 and for this one day, she gives herself over to 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:50.240 his art. She dons the costumes he chooses and holds 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.280 the props he hands her. She sits still as he 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.200 paints her face with makeup, and allows herself to be 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.959 posed in the exact ways Victor wishes. After a couple 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.360 of hours, he pays her as he would any model. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.400 Then Mite leaves and Victor spends the rest of the 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:13.560 year painting her image. In the Greek myth of Persephone, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:17.280 Persephone marries Hades but is unhappy living in the underworld, 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.160 so Hades agrees to release her to the world above 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.360 if she promises to return to him once a year. 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.640 Over time, however, Persephonie falls in love with Hades. I 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.000 can't help wondering if Victor carries a shred of Hades's 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:38.120 hope in his heart too. I'll read to you something 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:43.560 that he said here in talking about you. I think 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:48.160 the physical is not even her most attractive quality. I mean, 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.080 of course she's super beautiful, but her personality is incredible, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.640 like a nuclear bomb of charisma. When she gets into 0:11:55.640 --> 0:12:00.000 a room, it's like the sun enters. Everything is nice 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:14.120 and warm. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:23.320 Yeah, that's I mean, that's very nice. I I. 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:28.880 Don't really know what to say. 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:35.040 I mean, I I worry about him. I worry about 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.480 how you know his state of mind or heart, and 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.480 I want him to be fine and happy and find joy. 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.120 What do you think? How do you see this? 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.480 I'm not sure how I see this. My day doesn't 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.720 think Victor is in love with her, but enough people 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.840 have asked her to raise some doubts. It is not 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.320 easy to differentiate. We're enjoying ends Curator Gonzala or take 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.440 a writes of Victor's work and where an obsessive fixation begins. 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.280 It's this kind of thing. It's people like me that 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.000 make Mighty question herself. 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.680 Do you do you think that I'm if you said, 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.520 I mean, if someone says to me, this looks like 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:25.079 you're hurting him, then I would do things differently. 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.200 Having talked to Victor about it at length, I don't 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.680 think my ya is hurting him, but seen from the outside, 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.640 the arrangement is unconventional. 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:38.800 If I try to. 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:43.560 Give it too much thought, I could go crazy a 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:44.000 little bit. 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.480 Yeah. Yeah, So. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.640 When I have doubts, it's important to know what Mikhaila thinks, 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:52.880 and I feel that she can be my compass. 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.720 I think it really was for me normal that my 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.400 dad painted my mom. 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.600 This is Victor in my Tay's daughter, Mikayla. She's twenty five, 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.400 but was just five years old when her parents divorced. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:11.160 I do remember one moment in high school friend of 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.200 mine asked me, oh, your dad still paints your mom, 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:18.560 and I said yeah, he does, yeah, and my friend said, well, 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.800 he's still in love with her. Then right, he must 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.160 still be in love with her, and I guess I 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.480 did pause. I didn't really know what to say, and 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:28.360 I think there was a moment of is he. 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:30.280 Could he be? 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:32.200 Maybe I should ask him? 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:33.840 And so I did. I asked him. 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:35.240 What did he say? 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:36.680 He said no. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.280 Like any kid, Mikayla likes to see her parents getting along, 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.000 so when her mom asks her if she's okay with 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:49.080 her modeling, she's always said yes. But like me, Mikayla 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:50.360 still has questions. 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.960 I'd be curious to learn more about my mom, what's 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:55.920 going on through her mind, what she feels when she's 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:56.320 doing it. 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.520 Talking to my Day, I got the impression that she 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.840 might read to help Victor out of a sense of 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.720 responsibility or even worry. But is that enough to keep 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.120 someone returning to their ex husband over and over year 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:13.600 after year. Now, along with my question about why Victor 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.320 continues to paint my ta and only my ta, I 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:22.120 have a new one, why does myte model? Have you 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.200 ever stopped to imagine what it would be like to 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.920 be on the receiving end of such attention, like what 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:29.000 it's like for her? 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.120 Yes, I have thought how it must feel for her, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.400 and I have told her the date that you don't 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.600 want me to do these things, I'll stop, and she hasn't. 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:41.800 She hasn't so far. 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:48.600 No, why do you think she comes to your studio? I, Jonathan, 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.000 I truly have no idea. 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:58.840 Hmmm, I wonder. In a few weeks, Victor and Mite 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.120 are planning their annual will photoshoot in Victor's studio. Perhaps 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.560 the only way to truly understand why Persephone returns to 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.640 Hades is to follow her down to the underworld and 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:41.880 see firsthand after the break Victor Studio Victor, Oh, Hello, hi. 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:44.200 Wow. 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.920 On a warm Friday in May, I arrived at Victor's studio, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.040 a loft space with high ceilings and a concrete floor. 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.360 Victor is dressed in black, black leather leggings, black boots, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.760 and thick black glasses. There are paintings and photos of 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.320 my day everywhere. On one shelf, I noticed a photo 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.080 of two feet raised on tiptoes. That is that my 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:06.680 taste feet? 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.200 Yeah, m coming. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.160 You can hear her voice, You can hear the footsteps, okay? 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.400 Can you can you distinguish her footsteps from other footstep? 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:24.720 As my taste steps grow louder, Victor turns to me suddenly, 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.160 but yes, yes, I can. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:34.880 Go with us. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.920 My Tay arrives in a T shirt, knee length black 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:42.480 skirts and cowboy boots. She's objectively striking. She and Victor 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.080 both are. It's the first time I've ever been with 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.840 them together, and it's like they go together, like Jack 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.199 and Meg White or ant Man in the Wasp. I 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.720 watch them as they watch each other, but of course 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.360 I cannot see what Victor is seeing, and I cannot 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:07.080 feel what either of them is feeling. During the photo shoot, 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.119 Victor poses Mite beside a greco bust. He poses her 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.440 against the stack of books. He poses her talking into 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.440 an old fashioned rotary telephone, and with a handful of 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.480 rubber superballs. He poses her lying atop a keyboard that 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.600 he bought especially for the shoot. He poses her looking 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.600 soulfully into the eyes of a cookie monster hand puppet. 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.000 I should have bought some coises. 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.240 In spite of the surreal edge to the props, the 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.040 shoot is surprisingly casual and relaxed. It has the mood 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:49.200 of two old friends out for coffee. Sometimes Victor gives 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:50.360 Mite direction. 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.040 Now that must sight I except. 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:56.960 But mostly he doesn't say anything. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.720 She said natural it's incredible. 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.400 I don't do anything up until now. Myte has been 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.080 reserved from the moment we met her body language betrayed 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.760 someone who doesn't like attention. Yet as soon as the 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:19.399 camera starts clicking, something happens. She comes alive. At one point, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.760 Victor compares Mite to Audrey Hepburn, who he says, is 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:24.680 quote not as pretty. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.120 Not not even close, but in the same style. Well 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:29.520 that's so excessive. 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.960 Observing the day, one thing seems clear. In answer to 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.560 Michayla's question about why her mother does it, maybe it's 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.760 for the simple reason she enjoys it. 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.000 I think we're gone. Okay, I think we're gone. 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.919 After about an hour, the photo shoot is over. Victor 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.800 thanks my Tay and insists on calling her a car. 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.600 She's teaching a Spanish class this afternoon. She has a 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:08.520 life to get back to. 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:09.720 Thank you very much. 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:10.280 I'll be back. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.480 My Tay walks out, leaving me and Victor alone. Victor 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.840 seems tired, and that way introverts get after expending a 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.640 lot of social energy. After watching the shoot, I'm still 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.160 not sure what to think. I was hoping that seeing 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.000 Victor and my Tay together would answer all my questions, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.360 but it hasn't. I ask Victor how the shoot went, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.159 and he says he's pleased, But he says, I always 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.520 want more. You know, I can't tell if he means 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.800 more material or more time with my Tay. Is he 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.240 already counting the months until he can see her again? 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.800 This time? When my Ta walked through the door, did 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.720 you feel again that feeling of like she's more beautiful 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:53.680 than the last time. 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.600 Multiplied by one hundred? You know? 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:03.800 I find with her that her beauty or her type 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.560 of uh, I don't know what to call it can be. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:11.119 I'm sure. 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.200 Once she had a tooth extracted when we were married, 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.080 and the dentist were it to me, and it had 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.520 a certain shape, and that shape was exactly the same 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:22.960 type of beauty. 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:28.080 It's like the park contains the whole in micro and 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:34.320 in macro. Okay, let's take it a step further. I mean, 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.080 do you think you would be if you replaced ten 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.040 teeth for some different people, you would be able to 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:41.040 identify her tooth. 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:46.359 I'll go further. If you put ten thyroid glands. I 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:52.240 think I have a good chance of guessing. Why listen, 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:53.879 I don't know, And that's why I that's. 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.040 I know. This sounds like this is mad, This is crazy. 0:21:59.040 --> 0:21:59.680 I understand. 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.040 I know if I present my portfolio in an institution, 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.359 mental institution, they will welcome me. 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.520 It's like, hey, do you belong here? Man? 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:14.960 Victor has insisted since the moment we met that he 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:17.240 is not in love with my Day, and I want 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:19.840 to believe him. But when he starts talking about how 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.040 he can pick her thyroid gland out of a lineup, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.160 I find it hard to If that's not love, albeit 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:30.080 a love bordering on obsession, then what is it. The 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:34.160 force of your admiration doesn't seem like it's the right 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:38.400 word of your I don't know what do you think 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:40.240 is the right word? Is adoration? 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:40.480 Not? 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:42.640 The right word is no? 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:49.080 Uh, it's because you're trying to avoid the L word, 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:58.560 which is love. Right, Victor pauses, I do feel love for. 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:02.320 Her, but as quickly as he admits it, he returns 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:03.359 to the same old saw. 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:05.840 But to me, the only thing that matters is the 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:07.879 final art product and painting. 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:11.760 This time, though, after having spent the day with them, 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:14.359 after seeing the way he looks at my tay, the 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.000 way that he hangs on her every move, I push 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.320 back but you ever feel like it flows backwards. Also, 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:22.200 you know what I mean that the that the art 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:27.080 work is also a means of, you know, having a 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:32.640 having a relationship where your love is permissible. Victor needs 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:36.320 Miighty to make art. But might Victor's art in some 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:39.080 ways be in service to spending time with Mighty? 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:39.639 Also? 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:53.440 Uh huh, Yeah, the answer is yes. Real love, real 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:59.199 love is doesn't stop right, you know, it doesn't. It 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:06.960 continues existing, It transforms itself, it moves in different ways. 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.200 So you're saying that this is real love. 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:20.920 Yeah. 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:24.600 For Victor, real love doesn't require wooing and rings and 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:28.439 shared health insurance. Real love is simply delighting in the 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:32.479 object of his affection. But Mite has a different idea 0:24:32.600 --> 0:24:36.760 of what real love is and what it isn't. I'm 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:39.280 reminded of something she said the first time we spoke. 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.520 She told me that even though Victor was always looking 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:44.399 at her, she didn't feel seen. 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:49.840 It's easier to see someone from afar and idealize the 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:53.800 person than to be in the every day and just 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:55.520 dealing with the juggling of life. 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:57.800 But he was with the every day, you know, for 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:01.600 many years. I mean, so it's it's not like he. 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:05.719 Yes, But I think I think that even then I 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:06.919 was kind of an hologram. 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:11.400 It was like the ideal mite has a point. Real 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:15.040 love isn't about the ideal. It's hard work and requires 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:19.719 seeing a person in their entirety, imperfections and all. But 0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:22.440 then Victor tells me a story from after the divorce 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:25.080 that makes me think he sees more than perhaps my 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:29.720 day knows. If he cannot exactly see her imperfections, he 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:30.920 can at least see his own. 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:36.199 One day, I was going back home in Manouver in 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:39.680 a taxi and I saw her with her boyfriend and 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:43.040 friends in a sitting outside the table in a restaurant 0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:46.840 or bar, and they were all super happy, you know, 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:48.200 having a great time. 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:52.720 Victor had spent the whole day in his studio doing. 0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:57.000 Like a very realistic depiction of her all day long. 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:02.600 But there she is sitting down with those guys having 0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:08.560 a beer and talking about whatever and enjoying the day. 0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:15.560 And I thought I couldn't provide her with that happiness 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:20.119 or like that regular normal, just enjoyment of life. 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:30.879 That was my feeling as a husband. You know what 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:31.560 I'm thinking about? 0:26:31.720 --> 0:26:37.480 In cave paintings like from fifty thousand years ago. They 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:40.800 were the people there in the cave went to hunt 0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:44.119 for a bison or something, and there was always a 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.000 dude who stayed behind. 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:53.160 To depict what happened. And sometimes I think that's my job. 0:26:54.800 --> 0:26:59.320 I don't go out and have a experience, but I'm 0:26:59.320 --> 0:26:59.919 okay with it. 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:04.600 I'm a different thing, yeah, yeah, a different thing. 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:09.560 In college, I didn't really know how to be alone 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:11.359 without feeling lonely. 0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:14.119 This is Victor and my Day's daughter, Mikayla again. 0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:16.480 Every time I was alone, I felt like I was 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:19.200 doing something wrong or that, you know, I felt a 0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:20.520 little ashamed. 0:27:20.840 --> 0:27:24.600 As it happens. Mikayla is a social psychology doctoral student, 0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:28.560 and her work focuses on, of all things, the study 0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:32.639 of loneliness. A little bit, it feels like she's dedicated 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:34.919 her life to trying to understand her dad. 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:38.840 There was a moment my sophomore year of college when 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:43.240 I was feeling really alone and very lonely, and I 0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:46.239 called my dad and we talked for a while, and 0:27:46.280 --> 0:27:48.760 he told me something that has stuck with me to 0:27:48.800 --> 0:27:53.760 this day. He said, being alone does not mean being lonely. 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:56.879 It really struck me. 0:27:57.920 --> 0:27:59.960 And do you think your dad was talking about himself. 0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:04.760 Yeah, I think of him as someone who really enjoys 0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:09.640 his solitude. Yeah, if he wanted to have a significant other, 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:12.040 if he wanted to have a big group of friends, 0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:15.600 he totally could. But he doesn't want to, and he 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:19.040 knows that's a choice. So he's making a choice, which 0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:21.040 I think is hard for some people to understand. 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:26.520 Victor's alone, but not lonely. He's not with somebody, and 0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:31.520 yet he is sort of Finally, I think I understand 0:28:33.240 --> 0:28:36.320 Victor couldn't handle being with Mita in her three dimensions, 0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:39.280 but with this arrangement, he only has to be with 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:42.800 her in two. Victor can worship Mite as he did 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:45.280 that first time he laid eyes on her as a teenager, 0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:50.400 and then he lets her leave. For Mite's part, she 0:28:50.520 --> 0:28:54.120 loves Victor two, but she needed something more. So if 0:28:54.160 --> 0:28:58.480 Victor expresses his love by letting Mitey go, Mite expresses 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:01.520 her love by allowing him for one day at least 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:11.959 to keep her. It's Friday, and so before parting, I 0:29:12.000 --> 0:29:15.360 ask Victor what I always ask people on Fridays. Do 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:16.360 you have weekend plans? 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:22.920 You know what I don't. I don't have anything to do. 0:29:23.480 --> 0:29:24.920 All I do is computer and work. 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:30.560 You'll be here working. Yeah. 0:29:31.320 --> 0:29:34.160 Victor then tells me he's looking forward to the weekend, 0:29:35.400 --> 0:30:45.760 and I believe him. 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:20.480 Now that the furnitures returning to its goodwill home, now 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:25.320 that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage 0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:29.000 to take this moment to deserve. 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:32.920 If we meant it, if we. 0:30:32.880 --> 0:30:41.920 Trust but felt around for far too from things that accidentally. 0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:50.440 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by supervising producer Stevie 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:54.120 Lane and me Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our 0:30:54.160 --> 0:30:58.040 senior producer is Khalila Holt. Production assistance by Moheey mcgauker, 0:30:58.240 --> 0:31:01.960 the editorial guidance from Emily con Special thanks to Lauren Silverman, 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:06.560 Neil Drumming, mime O'Donnell, Anya Schultz, Jackie Cohen, and Jessica Basheer, 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:10.320 who directed a short documentary about Victor's art called Heroin 0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:12.760 which is where I first learned about Victor and Mitay. 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:16.440 Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:20.080 John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hurst, and Bobby Lord. 0:31:20.280 --> 0:31:23.440 Additional music credits can be found on our website, Gimbletmedia 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:26.560 dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by The 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:30.320 Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Heavyweight is a Spotify 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:34.400 original podcast. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight, on Instagram 0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:38.480 at Heavyweight podcast, or email us at Heavyweight at gimletmedia 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:41.480 dot com. You can also follow our show on Spotify 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:45.400 and tap the bell to receive notifications when new episodes drop. 0:31:45.720 --> 0:31:55.560 We'll be back in two weeks time with a new episode.