#3 Tara

Pushkin. What's your favorite movie? I can't talk right now. 0:00:24.170 --> 0:00:25.050 I'm going out for lunch. 0:00:25.489 --> 0:00:27.130 Who are you going for lunch with? 0:00:28.650 --> 0:00:28.850 What? 0:00:29.810 --> 0:00:33.129 You stand still? You're The sound on the phone is terrible. Carol, 0:00:34.690 --> 0:00:38.370 my ex girlfriend, Carol? Is it okay? Do you really care? 0:00:38.489 --> 0:00:41.890 Let's say I said no. I don't you know it 0:00:41.930 --> 0:00:45.250 affects me. You're not sorry? 0:00:45.450 --> 0:00:45.690 Do you know? 0:00:45.769 --> 0:00:47.769 There are many of your ex boyfriends who I was 0:00:47.810 --> 0:00:50.290 fond of, and I don't keep in touch with them 0:00:50.330 --> 0:00:53.890 because I felt like it would be a disloyalty to you. 0:00:53.970 --> 0:00:55.010 Are you going to talk about me? 0:00:55.890 --> 0:00:58.090 Of course? I don't want you to. 0:00:58.730 --> 0:01:01.010 From here, all right, have a good lunch. What are 0:01:01.010 --> 0:01:01.610 you gonna order? 0:01:01.930 --> 0:01:04.050 I don't know what. Are we gonna know? 0:01:04.050 --> 0:01:13.770 What we're gonna eat? From Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein 0:01:14.010 --> 0:01:29.890 and this is Heavyweight Today's episode Tara. During my freshman year, 0:01:30.170 --> 0:01:33.170 I wore black turtlenecks. They were meant to let people 0:01:33.250 --> 0:01:36.330 know I was an artist. It was easier than actually 0:01:36.370 --> 0:01:39.810 making art. I wore them so tight that the outline 0:01:39.850 --> 0:01:42.610 of my Adam's apple was made visible when I swallowed 0:01:42.610 --> 0:01:47.170 with excitement, and nothing excited me more than art. Hearing 0:01:47.210 --> 0:01:51.410 words like kirisciro and trompe lois was enough to set 0:01:51.450 --> 0:01:54.530 my adam's apple racing up and down, my turtleneck collar 0:01:54.970 --> 0:01:59.090 like an otter trapped and a sleeping bag. Aside from 0:01:59.130 --> 0:02:03.090 my own saliva, I also enjoyed swallowing espresso, and in 0:02:03.130 --> 0:02:06.850 the back row of my experimental film appreciation class, I 0:02:06.930 --> 0:02:10.970 swallowed oceans of the stuff. The back row was an 0:02:11.010 --> 0:02:14.410 ideal place to sit, as it was closest to the exit, 0:02:15.169 --> 0:02:17.250 so in case I had to get up and smoke 0:02:17.290 --> 0:02:20.650 a ghitan or indul ja panic attack about my future, 0:02:21.290 --> 0:02:25.329 I could do so unnoticed. Although I knew I was 0:02:25.370 --> 0:02:28.290 an artist, I did not know what kind, and so 0:02:28.770 --> 0:02:32.970 experimental film felt like a possible calling. I knew I 0:02:32.970 --> 0:02:35.650 could never make a movie movie like Raiders of the 0:02:35.690 --> 0:02:38.810 Lost Arc or Ishtar, but I could probably get away 0:02:38.810 --> 0:02:41.889 with making weird stuff, the kind of films that played 0:02:41.890 --> 0:02:44.930 on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation at three in the morning 0:02:45.210 --> 0:02:48.010 and prompted my father to demand after several minutes in 0:02:48.770 --> 0:02:51.570 what the hell happened at a plot, so point a 0:02:51.610 --> 0:02:54.489 camera at a sleeping person for ten hours. I could 0:02:54.530 --> 0:03:02.290 totally do that in the end, though I only ever 0:03:02.330 --> 0:03:06.170 made one single film, a Super eight short that involved 0:03:06.210 --> 0:03:10.050 montages of swirling fans and clouds drifting across the sky 0:03:10.490 --> 0:03:13.210 and speed it up motion. It was all set to 0:03:13.250 --> 0:03:17.530 the progressively jazzy strains of Pat Metheni's seminal fusion album 0:03:17.810 --> 0:03:22.130 as Falls Wichita, So Falls, Wichita Falls. I named the 0:03:22.170 --> 0:03:27.090 film in Sensito. I can no longer recall why, but 0:03:27.170 --> 0:03:31.290 I still loved watching movies in class Window Water, Baby Moving, 0:03:31.530 --> 0:03:35.170 in which the director filmed his wife giving birth, and Mothlight, 0:03:35.370 --> 0:03:38.610 which looked like a white, scratchy film strip. But of 0:03:38.650 --> 0:03:41.930 all the films in film appreciation class that I appreciated, 0:03:42.530 --> 0:03:45.330 there's a scene from one video that I still think 0:03:45.370 --> 0:03:49.330 about twenty five years later. The premise of the video 0:03:49.450 --> 0:03:53.050 was this. In nineteen eighty six, the director put an 0:03:53.050 --> 0:03:55.730 ad in the village voice, asking people who were angry 0:03:56.090 --> 0:03:58.650 to come down to her studio and tell her why. 0:03:59.650 --> 0:04:03.810 The resulting video was simply titled Anger. I've never been 0:04:03.850 --> 0:04:06.370 able to find it again, but I remember it clearly. 0:04:06.970 --> 0:04:10.210 There were ranting punks, a murder who bragged about all 0:04:10.210 --> 0:04:13.770 the murders he'd committed, and victims of violence who laid 0:04:13.770 --> 0:04:17.169 out their plans for revenge. But the person I still 0:04:17.210 --> 0:04:19.969 think about all these years later is someone who didn't 0:04:19.969 --> 0:04:23.969 say anything at all. A little girl. She couldn't have 0:04:24.010 --> 0:04:27.089 been more than eight or nine. She sat silently watching 0:04:27.089 --> 0:04:31.210 her parent, who described herself as being intersext weep tears 0:04:31.250 --> 0:04:34.289 of anger and frustration over how hard her life was. 0:04:35.609 --> 0:04:39.330 Then the little girl, with her chin raised, stared directly 0:04:39.369 --> 0:04:42.609 into the camera, And this is what I remember so well, 0:04:43.289 --> 0:04:45.890 meeting her gaze and how complicit I felt to be 0:04:45.969 --> 0:04:49.170 watching her. Why would the woman have brought along a 0:04:49.250 --> 0:04:51.969 child that day to hear all this? From the look 0:04:51.969 --> 0:04:53.969 on the little girl's face, it was hard to tell 0:04:53.969 --> 0:04:56.890 what affect these words were having on her. And over 0:04:56.929 --> 0:04:59.650 the past twenty five years, every once in a while, 0:05:00.130 --> 0:05:02.569 I find myself worrying about what might have become of 0:05:02.609 --> 0:05:06.210 this little girl, and wondering if maybe finding her would 0:05:06.210 --> 0:05:12.890 put my mind to rest. I've never been able to 0:05:12.929 --> 0:05:15.210 talk about it with anyone, because no one I know 0:05:15.450 --> 0:05:18.609 has ever seen the video. Lately, I've been trying to 0:05:18.650 --> 0:05:22.089 find it online, but because I don't remember the director's name, 0:05:22.330 --> 0:05:25.770 it's been virtually impossible to google. When I punch in 0:05:25.890 --> 0:05:29.370 anger plus video plus eighties, my search yields a heavy 0:05:29.450 --> 0:05:33.330 metal music video for a song called Anger. In it, 0:05:33.650 --> 0:05:37.250 a shirtless viking with a spiral perm wields a cardboard sword. 0:05:44.609 --> 0:05:48.969 My middle name is Stewart. I email old film school friends, 0:05:49.169 --> 0:05:51.810 but none of them know what I'm talking about. Then 0:05:51.849 --> 0:05:55.810 one night I hear back from a retired professor. God, yes, 0:05:55.929 --> 0:05:59.409 he writes, even with failing memory, I do believe I 0:05:59.489 --> 0:06:02.249 know what you're talking about. He sends a link to 0:06:02.289 --> 0:06:05.290 the video on YouTube, where it sits with few views 0:06:05.330 --> 0:06:09.250 and not a single comment. I press play, and I'm shocked, 0:06:09.650 --> 0:06:12.890 after all these years by how much I remember. For 0:06:13.010 --> 0:06:18.370 all you vidiots out there, this one's for you. Step off, yuppies, 0:06:18.409 --> 0:06:21.169 step off. It starts with a group of skinheads and 0:06:21.210 --> 0:06:24.369 punks giving the camera the finger. Back in the eighties, 0:06:24.650 --> 0:06:27.969 giving a camera the finger was a big thing, junk, 0:06:28.089 --> 0:06:31.330 and I'm proud of it. There's the wrongfully accused police 0:06:31.330 --> 0:06:33.929 detective forced out of his unit amid scandal. 0:06:34.130 --> 0:06:36.769 I'm angry enough right now that if I saw something 0:06:36.810 --> 0:06:39.890 happening in the street possibility, I wouldn't do a goddamn 0:06:39.890 --> 0:06:42.130 thing about it, because it's done on my fucking business. 0:06:42.369 --> 0:06:44.570 You let another guy handle it. I was never liked 0:06:44.570 --> 0:06:47.769 that I loved what I was doing. Now I wouldn't 0:06:47.810 --> 0:06:48.250 do shit. 0:06:49.049 --> 0:06:52.409 There's the ethereal young woman wearing a pink sweatshirt with ducks, 0:06:52.729 --> 0:06:55.450 who speaks of being attacked at knife point and how 0:06:55.489 --> 0:06:57.650 a month later her boyfriend left her. 0:06:58.130 --> 0:07:00.729 Everything you do to someone does eventually come back to 0:07:00.890 --> 0:07:04.489 everything you do. All actions have reactions, And if I didn't. 0:07:04.330 --> 0:07:06.049 Believe that, I would have kissed the detrain a long 0:07:06.049 --> 0:07:09.610 time ago. There's the artist couple, once in love but 0:07:09.730 --> 0:07:12.690 now filled with raw hatred for each other, who, because 0:07:12.770 --> 0:07:15.809 of the realities of Manhattan real estate, were forced to 0:07:15.850 --> 0:07:18.770 live as roommates in a small artist's. 0:07:18.410 --> 0:07:22.129 Last night's Can I speak now? 0:07:22.290 --> 0:07:23.330 Can I please speak? 0:07:23.489 --> 0:07:24.930 What are you asking permission for? 0:07:24.970 --> 0:07:27.010 Yourn? 0:07:29.010 --> 0:07:32.050 Then the scene I've not been able to forget, the 0:07:32.090 --> 0:07:33.850 weeping woman and her little girl. 0:07:35.489 --> 0:07:38.810 I went to an drowcinologist, and I found out too 0:07:38.970 --> 0:07:41.290 many of the tests that they did that I was 0:07:41.330 --> 0:07:44.249 biologically a woman and a man at the same time 0:07:44.850 --> 0:07:45.890 I was intersexed. 0:07:46.290 --> 0:07:48.890 In her powder blue knee length skirt and pearl necklace, 0:07:49.210 --> 0:07:51.370 she looks to be out of an entirely different era, 0:07:52.050 --> 0:07:54.210 like a nun from the fifties. On her day off. 0:07:55.010 --> 0:07:57.369 She sits on the stool wringing her hands. 0:07:59.250 --> 0:08:03.010 After two years of constantly crying night after night after night, 0:08:04.010 --> 0:08:08.769 and my wife being upset, and my child being upset, 0:08:09.890 --> 0:08:17.610 and the constant harassment from people on the job, I 0:08:17.730 --> 0:08:26.010 became so helpless, and finally, after seeing many doctors to 0:08:26.050 --> 0:08:29.770 try to have some way to have it corrected, it 0:08:30.530 --> 0:08:34.650 was an impossibility, and it was a question of being 0:08:34.690 --> 0:08:39.930 a circus for the society or choosing to be a woman. 0:08:41.690 --> 0:08:41.970 And I. 0:08:44.970 --> 0:08:48.050 Thought at that time that it was much. 0:08:48.610 --> 0:08:54.570 Easier for me to be a woman. As she speaks, 0:08:54.930 --> 0:08:57.809 the camera pans to the right, and sitting beside her 0:08:58.290 --> 0:09:01.890 is the little girl. She's wearing a purple dress, her 0:09:01.930 --> 0:09:05.410 long brown hair pulled back with a headband. She sits 0:09:05.450 --> 0:09:08.890 there as though absorbing radiation. It's hard to tell what 0:09:08.970 --> 0:09:20.770 she thinking. Yeah, some of what the woman says is 0:09:20.770 --> 0:09:23.930 hard to follow. She doesn't want sex reassignment, but she 0:09:23.970 --> 0:09:25.250 doesn't want to live in the middle. 0:09:26.610 --> 0:09:31.330 I know about I'm not married to my wife anymore. 0:09:31.370 --> 0:09:36.170 We still live together as sisters the child, but it's 0:09:36.170 --> 0:09:39.010 a smaller than nine by twelve roup for three of us. 0:09:45.370 --> 0:09:48.490 I think that I've worked so hard. 0:09:48.650 --> 0:09:51.010 To try to make a sing sense out of my life, 0:09:52.210 --> 0:10:08.170 only to wind up at the bottom. 0:10:08.170 --> 0:10:11.650 Seeing the video still makes me feel as powerless as 0:10:11.650 --> 0:10:14.930 it did all those years ago. What had their life 0:10:14.970 --> 0:10:18.210 been like in that nine x twelve room? And where 0:10:18.610 --> 0:10:19.330 was the little girl? 0:10:19.410 --> 0:10:19.610 Now? 0:10:20.530 --> 0:10:24.010 The video, at least the online version, ends just before 0:10:24.050 --> 0:10:26.690 the credits begin, so there's no way to know who 0:10:26.730 --> 0:10:29.890 the weeping woman and the little girl were. But the 0:10:29.890 --> 0:10:33.890 director's name was there, Maxie Cohen, And it turns out 0:10:34.130 --> 0:10:40.770 she's not hard to find. Okay, oh hi, it's Jonathan. 0:10:43.810 --> 0:10:48.290 I didn't get that, but uh okay. Maxie's place was 0:10:48.370 --> 0:10:51.610 just a subway ride away. It turns out that Maxie 0:10:51.650 --> 0:10:54.290 hasn't thought about the movie in years and was surprised 0:10:54.290 --> 0:10:58.530 by my interest. I guess I assumed an experimental video 0:10:58.570 --> 0:11:01.770 director's place would be piled from Florida ceiling with towers 0:11:01.810 --> 0:11:06.370 of alt publications, possess a bathtub overflowing with bicycle parts 0:11:06.370 --> 0:11:12.090 for future art projects, you know, gritty. But Maxie's place 0:11:12.130 --> 0:11:16.130 is fancy. I'm greeted at the door by young interns 0:11:16.130 --> 0:11:18.130 who inform me that Maxie will be with me in 0:11:18.170 --> 0:11:22.810 a moment. In a moment, well, la di da. It 0:11:22.850 --> 0:11:26.130 seems I've caught them just before lunch in the kitchenette, 0:11:26.210 --> 0:11:29.650 a meal of kle and beats is being prepared. Maybe 0:11:29.690 --> 0:11:33.130 I should have become an experimental film director after all. Oh, 0:11:35.610 --> 0:11:38.250 Maxie still lives and works in the same Soho studio 0:11:38.370 --> 0:11:40.450 where she filled Anger thirty years ago. 0:11:40.970 --> 0:11:42.850 Well, at first they set up a studio somewhere else 0:11:42.850 --> 0:11:44.450 because I didn't know if I wanted all these angry 0:11:44.490 --> 0:11:47.370 people in my house. But yeah, I just asked people, 0:11:47.450 --> 0:11:49.610 what made the mank what were they angry about? That 0:11:50.090 --> 0:11:53.170 was really all I asked. And I think the people 0:11:53.210 --> 0:11:56.329 that really responded were people who were deeply troubled. 0:11:57.170 --> 0:11:58.970 I asked her if she's ever followed up with any 0:11:59.010 --> 0:12:00.290 of them, Not. 0:12:01.810 --> 0:12:05.930 Really, except about a year later or sometime later. Maybe 0:12:05.970 --> 0:12:08.929 it's a year or two later. The commissioning editor from 0:12:09.130 --> 0:12:12.970 Channel four in London saw the piece and he was 0:12:13.010 --> 0:12:16.010 so distraught that I had made this film. And I 0:12:16.090 --> 0:12:19.410 remember the producer from Channel four thinking I was totally 0:12:19.410 --> 0:12:22.490 irresponsible that I hadn't kept He wanted to know what 0:12:22.530 --> 0:12:23.730 happened to that little girl. 0:12:25.210 --> 0:12:29.890 This sound is an audible gasp. I hadn't told Maxie 0:12:29.890 --> 0:12:32.329 that the reason I'd come to see her was specifically 0:12:32.370 --> 0:12:35.850 to ask about the little girl. And let's back up. 0:12:41.170 --> 0:12:42.770 I have Maxie go back to the day of the 0:12:42.810 --> 0:12:45.770 shoot and tell me what she remembers about the little girl. 0:12:46.810 --> 0:12:49.170 She just looked at her face while her mother talked, 0:12:49.650 --> 0:12:56.690 her father talked. It all went in and I was 0:12:56.810 --> 0:13:02.330 really concerned about her hearing all of this, but her 0:13:02.370 --> 0:13:05.970 parent said no, no, no, keep her in the room 0:13:06.050 --> 0:13:09.290 like she was just fine there. Now, this is this 0:13:09.410 --> 0:13:11.490 is the only person that I did not talk to 0:13:12.290 --> 0:13:16.570 before I shot. And I don't even know how it happened, 0:13:16.770 --> 0:13:19.250 because all of a sudden, somebody showed up on location 0:13:20.330 --> 0:13:25.290 the day that we were shooting, and I had no 0:13:25.370 --> 0:13:26.370 idea what I was in for. 0:13:27.370 --> 0:13:31.410 So you said that it was a guy from the 0:13:31.490 --> 0:13:35.570 BBC who got in touch with you. Was curious about 0:13:35.890 --> 0:13:36.930 this little girl. 0:13:37.290 --> 0:13:43.530 He was so disdrawt after watching it, and he why 0:13:43.570 --> 0:13:45.730 didn't I keep up with her and what has happened 0:13:45.730 --> 0:13:50.530 to her? And really made me feel that it was 0:13:50.570 --> 0:13:52.170 my responsibility to do that. 0:13:52.490 --> 0:13:54.010 How long ago was this that he got in touch 0:13:54.050 --> 0:13:54.250 with you? 0:13:55.130 --> 0:13:57.090 Oh, this was maybe a year or two after it 0:13:57.130 --> 0:13:57.730 was broadcast. 0:13:57.770 --> 0:13:59.730 It was still the late eadies, was still the late eadies. 0:13:59.770 --> 0:14:08.250 Okay, So I tracked her down. 0:14:05.810 --> 0:14:08.450 And what Maxie learned wasn't very much. The woman was 0:14:08.490 --> 0:14:11.170 getting used to wearing glouses, and the little girl had 0:14:11.210 --> 0:14:14.170 just gotten a bicycle. And at the time, how did 0:14:14.170 --> 0:14:17.370 you get into touch with them? 0:14:17.810 --> 0:14:19.890 I guess I have their phone number, which I could 0:14:19.890 --> 0:14:22.730 still possibly have if anybody still has the same phone 0:14:22.770 --> 0:14:24.410 as they had in nineteen eighty six. 0:14:25.250 --> 0:14:28.450 Yeah, thirty years later, we don't even have phones anymore. 0:14:28.690 --> 0:14:30.050 Right, that's true. 0:14:31.290 --> 0:14:32.530 But you have that information. 0:14:32.970 --> 0:14:34.330 I probably do somewhere. 0:14:34.570 --> 0:14:37.810 Because you want to track her down. I don't really 0:14:37.890 --> 0:14:41.050 want to. Yeah. When I saw it all those years ago, 0:14:41.170 --> 0:14:45.730 she she stayed with me. 0:14:46.930 --> 0:14:50.410 Yeah, well, maybe next week I'll have the time to look. 0:14:50.690 --> 0:14:51.770 You still have that stuff? 0:14:51.890 --> 0:14:54.370 I might? I might, I do tend to. 0:14:54.610 --> 0:14:58.330 I mean I went through one cleaning uh huh. 0:14:57.570 --> 0:14:59.490 And I can't remember if I got rid of it 0:14:59.610 --> 0:15:00.850 or kept it so I could look. 0:15:02.330 --> 0:15:05.610 Is that a big undertaking to find it? Yeah? 0:15:05.850 --> 0:15:07.890 All right, well let's see. Maybe if let's see what 0:15:07.930 --> 0:15:10.450 time it is, maybe we can no, I could go down. 0:15:10.450 --> 0:15:10.970 I could go down. 0:15:11.010 --> 0:15:12.530 We could go down, and I could see if it's 0:15:12.570 --> 0:15:13.130 easier or not. 0:15:25.770 --> 0:15:37.810 The door onto there's a lesson here in the importance 0:15:37.850 --> 0:15:40.370 of archiving, we would stay to New York. You know, 0:15:40.410 --> 0:15:43.490 where do you put it all? Maxie's basement locker is 0:15:43.490 --> 0:15:45.810 filled from top to bottom, and a thirty year old 0:15:45.810 --> 0:15:48.490 phone number unless it's been inscribed on a block of 0:15:48.530 --> 0:15:52.130 asbestos and Maxi's up for a cleansing fire, doesn't seem 0:15:52.210 --> 0:15:56.690 likely to be found. Nevertheless, we go through boxes, some 0:15:56.890 --> 0:15:57.850 marked and some not. 0:15:58.410 --> 0:16:00.090 You know, now that I just think about it, the 0:16:00.130 --> 0:16:04.330 releases would have people's names and numbers on them, right. 0:16:04.490 --> 0:16:08.690 Yeah, So we search through folder after folder for release 0:16:08.730 --> 0:16:12.290 forms signed in nineteen eighty six. It isn't looking hopeful, 0:16:12.770 --> 0:16:13.330 but then. 0:16:13.330 --> 0:16:14.170 There's so much stuff. 0:16:14.170 --> 0:16:16.170 This brings back anger. 0:16:16.970 --> 0:16:18.770 Oh maybe here's are pieces. 0:16:18.810 --> 0:16:22.930 Okay, we even find the information for those yuppie hating punks. 0:16:23.290 --> 0:16:25.410 Such neat handwriting for punks. 0:16:25.890 --> 0:16:29.050 Yeah, so the woman whose name is Laura, that's the 0:16:29.090 --> 0:16:30.890 woman who's intersext. 0:16:31.850 --> 0:16:35.330 Is there a phone number there? There is? Wow? This 0:16:35.450 --> 0:16:45.050 sound wow is the sound of my amazement. Maxi gives 0:16:45.050 --> 0:16:49.610 me the numbers of everyone in the video. The number 0:16:49.650 --> 0:16:52.290 you dialed is not in servant. The number you dialed 0:16:52.410 --> 0:16:56.010 is not in service. The number you have dialed is unallocated. 0:16:56.690 --> 0:17:01.210 I love that unallocated guy. Unsurprisingly, every single number is 0:17:01.250 --> 0:17:05.690 disconnected except for one. 0:17:07.810 --> 0:17:08.129 Hello. 0:17:08.649 --> 0:17:13.290 Hello, is there a Laura there, Robert. No, a Laura. 0:17:14.889 --> 0:17:16.090 That's who I'm calling for. 0:17:18.250 --> 0:17:25.169 That's you. No, I'm calling on now Hello. 0:17:25.490 --> 0:17:33.009 Yes, Hello, I was looking for a Laura. Oh that's you. Yes, Wow, Okay. 0:17:33.129 --> 0:17:37.409 My name is Jonathan Goldstein. And I watched a short 0:17:37.449 --> 0:17:40.970 movie that you were in from many years ago, from 0:17:41.010 --> 0:17:41.770 the late eighties. 0:17:42.929 --> 0:17:45.770 It's possible that. I mean, it's like I'm seventy six 0:17:45.889 --> 0:17:46.450 years old now. 0:17:47.609 --> 0:17:50.090 Well, it makes sense because I think in the in 0:17:50.129 --> 0:17:53.529 the short film that I saw, you were forty or so. 0:17:55.090 --> 0:17:57.689 As I continue to talk about the video, it doesn't 0:17:57.689 --> 0:18:00.929 seem to evoke any memory. For the duration of the conversation. 0:18:01.369 --> 0:18:03.850 Laura acts like getting a call about an interview from 0:18:03.889 --> 0:18:06.810 thirty years ago is all in a day's work, because 0:18:06.850 --> 0:18:09.570 I called you just now thinking there's no way that 0:18:09.649 --> 0:18:11.649 this person is still going to be at this phone number. 0:18:12.209 --> 0:18:15.409 Yep. People are still live in the same place too. 0:18:15.850 --> 0:18:20.729 You're kidding. No, what isn't the same is that Laura 0:18:21.169 --> 0:18:22.850 is now Robert again? 0:18:23.369 --> 0:18:23.530 Yeah? 0:18:23.609 --> 0:18:25.530 Yeah, I mean, you know, I just life keeps going 0:18:25.570 --> 0:18:27.330 on and on. I just you know, I go with 0:18:27.449 --> 0:18:29.249 the flow of things. And that's just. 0:18:31.090 --> 0:18:34.249 Wait a second, because okay, in that movie, you had 0:18:34.290 --> 0:18:36.130 said that you had made the decision to live as 0:18:36.129 --> 0:18:37.169 a as a woman. 0:18:37.770 --> 0:18:41.330 Right, and now I just now I live as a male. 0:18:41.369 --> 0:18:45.570 Mall when did you when? When did that change occur? 0:18:46.250 --> 0:18:50.529 Well, that was maybe a couple of years ago already. 0:18:51.129 --> 0:18:52.969 It was only a couple of years ago that you 0:18:53.169 --> 0:18:54.129 that you why. 0:18:55.490 --> 0:18:57.769 I don't know, because that's the way my life was, 0:18:57.810 --> 0:19:00.369 and I, you know, things keep changing and everything, and 0:19:00.409 --> 0:19:03.809 I just made certain decisions and that was it. 0:19:05.250 --> 0:19:07.850 Let's recall that this question of gender was once so 0:19:07.929 --> 0:19:11.770 crushing that Robert couldn't even talk about it without breaking down, 0:19:12.090 --> 0:19:15.529 and now he seems surprisingly at peace. You showed up 0:19:16.369 --> 0:19:22.130 with your daughter, do you remember, Well, not. 0:19:22.169 --> 0:19:24.889 That I don't even know, but it's possible. 0:19:25.609 --> 0:19:29.050 You were sitting on a stool talking to the you know, 0:19:29.090 --> 0:19:30.450 facing the camera, and. 0:19:30.409 --> 0:19:34.409 It sounds similar. You know, we were talking. I'm talking 0:19:34.449 --> 0:19:40.369 to somebody on the phone, my wife. 0:19:40.449 --> 0:19:46.969 Okay, Hello, yes, hello, Hi, I was just I was 0:19:47.490 --> 0:19:51.129 My name is Jonathan, Yeah, And I saw this movie 0:19:51.250 --> 0:19:54.609 that Laura was in from the late eighties. 0:19:54.730 --> 0:19:57.689 I don't know nothing about that. But okay, so what 0:19:57.850 --> 0:19:58.529 is this about. 0:19:58.570 --> 0:20:02.930 Then he came to the movie with your daughter, I 0:20:02.970 --> 0:20:06.769 think when he when he went to be interviewed, and 0:20:06.810 --> 0:20:10.889 she sat beside him while he was telling his story. 0:20:11.449 --> 0:20:12.770 This was thirty years ago. 0:20:12.689 --> 0:20:13.850 Almost thirty years ago. 0:20:14.530 --> 0:20:21.290 Holy smoke. Oh wow, I don't know anything about this village. 0:20:22.970 --> 0:20:27.770 He was talking at the time about having to decide 0:20:27.810 --> 0:20:30.209 with his doctor to become a woman. 0:20:30.730 --> 0:20:35.249 Yes, yes, somehow it didn't you know, he decided not 0:20:35.330 --> 0:20:37.689 to not to do it. He changed That's why he 0:20:37.770 --> 0:20:39.169 changed his name back to Robert. 0:20:40.050 --> 0:20:42.330 And do you remember why he decided to change back. 0:20:42.689 --> 0:20:44.890 Well, he would get well, no, he would get up 0:20:44.889 --> 0:20:49.970 and age and and he rather attracted two men. 0:20:50.129 --> 0:20:52.289 And you guys, you guys are still married after all 0:20:52.330 --> 0:20:52.690 these years. 0:20:53.010 --> 0:20:55.889 We're still married. Yes. Yeah. 0:20:55.929 --> 0:21:00.450 And nowadays, people, some of what he was talking about is. 0:21:00.449 --> 0:21:04.410 More Yeah, now it's more open than it was, like, uh, 0:21:05.250 --> 0:21:07.770 thirty years ago. Now it's more open now. 0:21:07.970 --> 0:21:08.250 Yeah. 0:21:09.530 --> 0:21:12.250 You know what that you can't change the human mind. 0:21:13.290 --> 0:21:15.770 You can't. You can never. You can't reverse the human mind. 0:21:15.889 --> 0:21:17.969 If you're trying to fight the human mind and forget 0:21:17.970 --> 0:21:24.650 about it, you can go crazy. 0:21:25.609 --> 0:21:28.010 I talk with Robert's wife for a while, and eventually 0:21:28.050 --> 0:21:30.770 ask her what her daughter's name is, and she says 0:21:31.290 --> 0:21:53.409 it's Tara. After the break, Tara, I take out Tara's number, 0:21:53.970 --> 0:21:56.850 but before picking up the phone, I find myself worrying 0:21:56.889 --> 0:21:59.809 about what to say. After all the years of wondering 0:21:59.810 --> 0:22:02.289 what had become of her, now is my chance to 0:22:02.330 --> 0:22:06.489 find out. All during our conversation, I keep just wanting 0:22:06.530 --> 0:22:10.010 to say, how are you? Are you okay? But such 0:22:10.090 --> 0:22:12.369 questions are hard to come right out and ask, even 0:22:12.409 --> 0:22:16.369 to friends and family, let alone a perfect stranger. Tara 0:22:16.449 --> 0:22:18.570 tells me she had no idea that such a video 0:22:18.649 --> 0:22:21.570 even existed, and is reluctant to talk about that time. 0:22:22.490 --> 0:22:25.049 But maybe she's a bit curious too, because when I 0:22:25.090 --> 0:22:27.969 ask if we can meet up, although she's hesitant, she 0:22:28.010 --> 0:22:31.729 says yes. I suggest meeting at a quiet place, and 0:22:31.810 --> 0:22:34.689 since you can't talk at libraries and a cemetery would 0:22:34.689 --> 0:22:38.010 have seemed plain creepy, I rented the conference room of 0:22:38.050 --> 0:22:41.929 a local chain hotel. Oh, here we go. So Tara 0:22:42.090 --> 0:22:45.009 liked the idea, but when she shows up, she seems 0:22:45.010 --> 0:22:47.409 a little nervous. And so there's water. 0:22:47.730 --> 0:22:48.730 I have my own water. 0:22:48.770 --> 0:22:50.769 It's okay, And I do my best to put her 0:22:50.810 --> 0:22:59.249 at ease. Okay, so yes, but I still somehow feel 0:22:59.290 --> 0:23:03.490 like I'm selling time shares in Orlando and this for you, right, Yeah. 0:23:05.090 --> 0:23:08.129 Tara's now in her late thirties but looks younger. She 0:23:08.169 --> 0:23:10.450 has an open and kind face and still has long, 0:23:10.449 --> 0:23:13.090 straight brown hair. She looks a lot like the little 0:23:13.129 --> 0:23:15.930 girl from the video, and as we talk, her face 0:23:15.970 --> 0:23:19.570 seems to toggle between adult and child. She showed up 0:23:19.609 --> 0:23:21.609 with her husband and some photographs. 0:23:22.330 --> 0:23:27.609 This was my first communion, and this is my father 0:23:29.169 --> 0:23:30.649 just as a woman. 0:23:31.369 --> 0:23:35.970 He's looking like how you would put it, like kind 0:23:35.970 --> 0:23:38.369 of like a like a fifties housewife or something. 0:23:38.570 --> 0:23:38.769 You know. 0:23:39.290 --> 0:23:43.090 That was his mental picture of what, you know, he 0:23:43.250 --> 0:23:46.009 wanted to look like as a woman. He grew up 0:23:46.010 --> 0:23:51.250 in an orphanage, raised by the nuns that molded. 0:23:51.050 --> 0:23:53.570 His idea could look like. 0:23:53.689 --> 0:23:59.369 Yeah, you know, And I told all my friends that 0:23:59.449 --> 0:24:04.929 he was my aunt. I understood the situation, but I 0:24:05.010 --> 0:24:08.129 never knew what to say. I was always walking on 0:24:08.169 --> 0:24:11.330 eggshells because it was like do I say this? Do 0:24:11.409 --> 0:24:12.129 I not say this? 0:24:12.409 --> 0:24:14.209 Like what's okay? 0:24:14.290 --> 0:24:17.409 What's not okay? That kind of thing. 0:24:27.330 --> 0:24:30.209 Why do you think he brought you with him that 0:24:30.409 --> 0:24:32.889 day to the video shoot. 0:24:40.050 --> 0:24:45.210 I don't know. I think it was. I think it 0:24:45.250 --> 0:24:48.889 was to use me as a tool to have somebody 0:24:48.889 --> 0:24:54.729 to have sympathy for sympathy for him, Yes, because in 0:24:54.770 --> 0:24:58.969 his mind, I guess, I mean, you know, I have 0:24:59.050 --> 0:25:06.169 this beautiful, young, well behaved daughter, and I'm you know, 0:25:06.169 --> 0:25:09.050 we're forced to live in this one room, We're forced 0:25:09.209 --> 0:25:12.250 to live this way. He's forced to live in limbo, 0:25:12.449 --> 0:25:15.249 and you know, all these things. I think it was. 0:25:15.649 --> 0:25:17.929 I think it was a cry for help, and I 0:25:17.970 --> 0:25:22.649 think he was using me as a tool in his 0:25:23.449 --> 0:25:25.129 plea and cry for help. 0:25:26.889 --> 0:25:31.609 In the video, he refers to himself as as intersext. 0:25:32.609 --> 0:25:37.330 So how did you how did you understand that? What 0:25:38.010 --> 0:25:39.010 to mean from what. 0:25:38.929 --> 0:25:42.570 I was always told was he had a medical condition. 0:25:43.649 --> 0:25:46.690 When Tara asks her father about his medical condition, it's 0:25:46.689 --> 0:25:49.409 hard to get a clear answer. In the past few years, 0:25:49.449 --> 0:25:52.450 he's been diagnosed with dementia, and so there's a lot 0:25:52.530 --> 0:25:55.409 he just doesn't remember, and Tara ends up relying on 0:25:55.449 --> 0:25:56.810 what she was told as a child. 0:25:58.209 --> 0:26:00.969 Lately, in the last couple of years, you know, I 0:26:00.970 --> 0:26:05.409 started to just question certain things about you know, how 0:26:05.449 --> 0:26:12.050 this whole transition happened, and I did some research and 0:26:12.369 --> 0:26:17.170 I found an article that was written by this doctor 0:26:17.730 --> 0:26:19.410 from Germany. 0:26:21.730 --> 0:26:25.049 It's not just an article, it's a study conducted by 0:26:25.090 --> 0:26:28.249 two German doctors over the course of twenty years, with 0:26:28.369 --> 0:26:31.729 Tara's dad as its sole focus. It was published in 0:26:31.770 --> 0:26:35.649 a journal called Archives of Sexual Behavior, and in it, 0:26:36.010 --> 0:26:39.889 Tara's dad is diagnosed as having common syndrome, a rare 0:26:39.970 --> 0:26:44.929 hormonal disorder that, among other symptoms, delays puberty or stops 0:26:44.929 --> 0:26:48.249 it entirely. So if your male, this means your voice 0:26:48.250 --> 0:26:52.250 never lowers, your body never grows hair. While the video 0:26:52.330 --> 0:26:55.810 captures one moment in Tara's dad's life, the article presents 0:26:55.810 --> 0:26:59.289 a portrait of his life since childhood, so alongside the 0:26:59.369 --> 0:27:02.609 data on his hormone levels are details like how at 0:27:02.609 --> 0:27:05.689 the orphanage he was caught spying on the girls and 0:27:05.730 --> 0:27:08.090 as a punishment, was forced to dress as a girl. 0:27:09.010 --> 0:27:12.010 Was also discharged from the Air Force for concealing female 0:27:12.010 --> 0:27:17.609 clothes and his foot locker. The article also documents a 0:27:17.689 --> 0:27:23.649 history of misdiagnoses, psychiatric hospitalizations, thwarted attempts at gender reassignment surgery, 0:27:23.970 --> 0:27:29.689 and suicide attempts. He'd even set himself on fire. Throughout 0:27:29.730 --> 0:27:33.330 his entire life, Tara's dad insisted his gender confusion owed 0:27:33.409 --> 0:27:38.409 solely to the commons a physical hormonal condition. Nonetheless, the 0:27:38.490 --> 0:27:41.050 doctors he was treated by labeled him with the mental 0:27:41.050 --> 0:27:46.289 disorder transsexual, a diagnosis he violently rejected. It's also a 0:27:46.330 --> 0:27:50.769 diagnosis that no longer even exists. The article states, she 0:27:50.889 --> 0:27:54.889 always refused to consider herself as transsexual. As a result, 0:27:55.090 --> 0:27:58.570 she found herself quote stuck in the middle. Because of 0:27:58.609 --> 0:28:04.649 this stressful situation, she became emotionally even more disturbed. Tara's 0:28:04.689 --> 0:28:06.889 dad was never able to get the life he wanted 0:28:07.209 --> 0:28:11.689 or the treatment he needed. After reading the article, the 0:28:11.770 --> 0:28:14.769 overwhelming sense I'm left with is that while things are 0:28:14.770 --> 0:28:18.290 by no means perfect, the medical community's understanding of gender 0:28:18.369 --> 0:28:23.010 has changed drastically, and societies has too. Had Tara's dad 0:28:23.050 --> 0:28:26.449 been born twenty five years later, being quote stuck in 0:28:26.490 --> 0:28:28.530 the middle might not have been the curse it felt 0:28:28.570 --> 0:28:31.850 like back then, and perhaps he might not have experienced 0:28:31.929 --> 0:28:35.209 quite so much suffering, and Tara might have been spared 0:28:35.290 --> 0:28:39.529 having to witness so much suffering. In watching the video, 0:28:40.690 --> 0:28:44.250 it doesn't feel as though you're being protected from any 0:28:44.730 --> 0:28:47.170 kind of like thing that is being expressed. 0:28:47.610 --> 0:28:50.410 No, I mean I knew more about this stuff as 0:28:50.450 --> 0:28:52.050 a young child than most kids now. 0:28:52.690 --> 0:28:55.170 And was that just a function of you say that 0:28:55.650 --> 0:28:59.209 the apartment that your dad describes in the video is 0:28:59.250 --> 0:28:59.769 like it's. 0:28:59.650 --> 0:29:03.450 Just a room from I believe it was like twelve 0:29:03.450 --> 0:29:07.769 by fourteen. Really, Yes, that's what I think the actual 0:29:07.970 --> 0:29:11.890 size was. It's very small. I was right in the middle. 0:29:11.930 --> 0:29:13.890 It was very hard for them to keep any types 0:29:13.890 --> 0:29:17.810 of secrets from me, just because of the nature. There 0:29:17.890 --> 0:29:22.650 wasn't any closed doors, there wasn't any escape. 0:29:22.890 --> 0:29:24.890 She remember seeing her father come home with a black 0:29:24.930 --> 0:29:27.050 eye from the building he worked at as a doorman. 0:29:27.530 --> 0:29:29.930 The other doorman had beaten them up and told him 0:29:29.970 --> 0:29:30.890 to never come back. 0:29:31.650 --> 0:29:34.130 There were a lot of people that picked on him 0:29:34.410 --> 0:29:36.969 abused him. I think it would have been better if 0:29:36.970 --> 0:29:40.529 he probably moved away and started somewhere new with a 0:29:40.570 --> 0:29:42.010 new life. 0:29:42.209 --> 0:29:45.370 So why did he stay. At the end of the article, 0:29:45.490 --> 0:29:48.969 the author's hypothesized that living in between, rather than, as 0:29:49.010 --> 0:29:52.250 they put it, quote a real woman, allowed Tyr's dad 0:29:52.290 --> 0:29:55.050 to continue to live with his family. I wrote to 0:29:55.090 --> 0:29:57.370 one of the article's authors to ask what that meant. 0:29:57.930 --> 0:30:01.730 His explanation was simple. Nowadays, he wrote, we see many 0:30:01.810 --> 0:30:04.770 transgender persons who stay together with their spouse and family. 0:30:05.370 --> 0:30:08.610 You have to remember that this happened in the nineteen eighties. 0:30:09.810 --> 0:30:12.850 If Tara's dad had undergone sex reassignment, he says, it 0:30:12.930 --> 0:30:15.650 might have broken up the family, and family was very 0:30:15.650 --> 0:30:19.370 important to him. Tara's dad was put into foster care 0:30:19.410 --> 0:30:21.810 at age one and lived in an orphanage until he 0:30:21.850 --> 0:30:25.049 was a teenager. So maybe this living all together in 0:30:25.050 --> 0:30:28.490 one room, a communal bathroom down the hall Tara having 0:30:28.490 --> 0:30:30.729 to sleep in the same twin bed as him was 0:30:30.770 --> 0:30:33.569 the only way he knew to keep his own family together. 0:30:34.890 --> 0:30:38.330 I mean, my parents were very supportive of me and 0:30:39.050 --> 0:30:43.090 anything I wanted to do. I went through private school, 0:30:44.090 --> 0:30:47.489 even though we had no money. My mother decided to 0:30:47.690 --> 0:30:52.249 work saturdays doing their bingo in exchange for my tuition. 0:30:52.610 --> 0:30:53.530 She worked that out. 0:30:53.810 --> 0:30:59.770 Yes, yes, you know. The only thing I would say 0:30:59.970 --> 0:31:04.450 that I lacked growing up in that kind of environment 0:31:04.890 --> 0:31:08.009 was having my own sets of privacy. That is the 0:31:08.010 --> 0:31:10.450 only thing that I really lacked. 0:31:11.130 --> 0:31:12.370 How did you negotiate that? 0:31:13.330 --> 0:31:16.130 When I was really young, I actually used to go 0:31:16.170 --> 0:31:19.890 out into the hallway and they had outlets in the hallway, 0:31:19.930 --> 0:31:22.730 and I would bring my stuff out in the hallway 0:31:23.090 --> 0:31:25.770 and just kind of make my own little private little 0:31:25.810 --> 0:31:28.209 even though you had people that passed by once in 0:31:28.250 --> 0:31:31.370 a while, I still had quite a bit of privacy there. 0:31:31.890 --> 0:31:33.290 We had at one point we had a small, little 0:31:33.290 --> 0:31:37.290 portable TV. I brought that outside. I mean, I would 0:31:37.290 --> 0:31:41.450 do whatever. I'd bring my blanket outside in the hallway. 0:31:42.410 --> 0:31:44.050 And so is it happy memories? 0:31:44.450 --> 0:31:44.850 Yeah? 0:31:44.890 --> 0:31:59.809 Absolutely. For Thanksgiving, the tenants would sometimes set up a 0:31:59.850 --> 0:32:02.570 table in the hallway so they could all eat together 0:32:03.170 --> 0:32:05.930 like a family. Tara was one of the few kids 0:32:05.930 --> 0:32:09.209 in the building, so people were often stopping by to 0:32:09.209 --> 0:32:13.170 give her little gifts. Even the most experimental of short 0:32:13.250 --> 0:32:16.650 videos can only show what lies within the frame, not 0:32:16.690 --> 0:32:20.009 what lies outside of it. Neither Tara, her mother, nor 0:32:20.130 --> 0:32:23.969 her father remembered the video until I reminded them the 0:32:24.050 --> 0:32:26.290 video had been swallowed up by all of their other days, 0:32:26.610 --> 0:32:30.130 some bad, some good. There's one last thing that bears 0:32:30.170 --> 0:32:33.530 Mentioning about that article, Tara appears in it as well. 0:32:34.450 --> 0:32:37.290 The authors write that in spite of the situation, Tara 0:32:37.370 --> 0:32:41.210 appeared to be dealing quote exceptionally well. They also said 0:32:41.250 --> 0:32:44.170 that to her parents, Tara was a major source of pride. 0:32:45.770 --> 0:32:47.769 Tara and her husband are looking to buy a house, 0:32:48.130 --> 0:32:50.330 and Tara says she'd like one with lots of space. 0:32:51.050 --> 0:32:54.770 They plan on starting a family. When she was a kid, 0:32:54.970 --> 0:32:57.810 Tara's family made a couple cross country road trips together. 0:32:58.330 --> 0:33:01.570 They lasted almost the whole summer. She says that after 0:33:01.610 --> 0:33:04.610 she left their shared room, went off to college and graduated, 0:33:04.970 --> 0:33:07.690 she decided to do one last trip with them. She 0:33:07.810 --> 0:33:09.850 says she was probably never going to have a chance 0:33:09.890 --> 0:33:13.330 to do it again, which says a lot. It's the 0:33:13.450 --> 0:33:16.969 kind of thing a happy family does. Chooses to be together, 0:33:17.610 --> 0:33:20.770 chooses to be squeezed in close just because they want 0:33:20.810 --> 0:33:59.090 to be. Now that the Ferners returned to its goodwill home, 0:34:02.570 --> 0:34:07.690 now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage, 0:34:07.770 --> 0:34:14.410 the posit this moment to do so if we imagine, 0:34:14.490 --> 0:34:30.370 if we trapler Acid Heavyweight is hosted and produced by 0:34:30.370 --> 0:34:34.090 me Jonathan Goldstein along with Chris Neary and Khalila holt Our. 0:34:34.170 --> 0:34:37.410 Senior producer is Wendy Dore, editing by Alex Bloomberg and 0:34:37.450 --> 0:34:41.450 Jorge just Special thanks to Emily Condon, Caitlin Kenny, Peter Clowney, 0:34:41.490 --> 0:34:45.530 Michelle Harris, Doctor Susan Bolwaer at Yale Pediatric Ender Chronology, 0:34:46.010 --> 0:34:49.770 Maxi Cohen, Jack Hit, Jack Turbin, Leda Drummond, Mario Falsetto, 0:34:49.810 --> 0:34:53.969 Peter Rose and my beloved friend Jackie Cohen. The show 0:34:54.050 --> 0:34:57.170 is mixed by Hailey Shaw, music by Christine Fellow's. Additional 0:34:57.250 --> 0:34:59.610 music for the episode can be found on our website, 0:34:59.650 --> 0:35:03.650 Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by 0:35:03.690 --> 0:35:06.730 the Weaker Bands courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad 0:35:06.810 --> 0:35:09.410 music is by Hailey Shaw. Follow us on to Twitter 0:35:09.450 --> 0:35:13.410 at Heavyweight or email us at Heavyweight at gimbltmedia dot com. 0:35:13.490 --> 0:35:16.850 We'll have a new episode next week. And if you're 0:35:16.850 --> 0:35:18.850 a fan of Wiretap, the show I used to make 0:35:18.890 --> 0:35:21.570 at the CBC, you can now find season six through 0:35:21.610 --> 0:35:25.250 eleven on Earwolf's Howl app. Go to Howl dot fm 0:35:25.290 --> 0:36:01.250 and sign up for a free seven day trial. Oh by. 0:36:02.610 --> 0:36:09.090 Anger is my middle day. 0:36:10.570 --> 0:36:12.489 Anger is my middle name. 0:36:14.490 --> 0:36:20.250 Oh he Anger is my middle name. 0:36:22.490 --> 0:36:28.570 Oh Anger Anger is my middle name. 0:36:34.170 --> 0:36:37.050 That was really pretty. Matthew Boll, lead audio engineer at 0:36:37.090 --> 0:36:43.210 Gimblet Media. Thank you, what's your middle name? My name? 0:36:43.370 --> 0:36:46.770 Middle name is Matthew well, what's your middle name, Matthew, 0:36:47.010 --> 0:36:48.610 you don't have a middle name. No, that is my 0:36:48.650 --> 0:36:51.930 middle name. You use your middle name as your first name. Yes, 0:36:52.090 --> 0:36:53.170 you know what my middle name is. 0:36:53.650 --> 0:36:53.730 What? 0:36:53.970 --> 0:36:54.410 No, I don't. 0:36:54.450 --> 0:36:56.330 I don't know. Stewart. That's nice.